:00:10. > :00:14.This programme contains some strong language. Tonight, planning a party
:00:14. > :00:19.post coalition, how dot Lib Dems reconnect with voters while
:00:19. > :00:22.insisting the coalition is the only show in town? At their party
:00:22. > :00:25.conference today, Vince Cable became the highest profile figure
:00:25. > :00:28.to suggest there could be a hung Parliament at the next election and
:00:28. > :00:33.in his speech, he did his level best to demonstrate if he was
:00:33. > :00:38.leader he could deal with both parties. I'll speak to one of the
:00:38. > :00:41.architects of the coalition. Abu Hamza, Babar Ahmad and three
:00:41. > :00:46.other terrorism suspects lose their battle not to be extradited to the
:00:46. > :00:49.US. Why did it take so long? We'll speak to this human rights lawyer.
:00:49. > :00:54.He's also Babar Ahmad brother in law.
:00:54. > :00:58.It's still an apology up to a point from the Chief Whip. I'm very clear
:00:58. > :01:02.about what I said and didn't say. I want to make it absolutely clear
:01:02. > :01:05.that I did not use the words attributed to me. What does this
:01:05. > :01:13.say about the Government's real attitude to the police?
:01:13. > :01:19.Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this sun of
:01:19. > :01:24.York. What will happen if the mortal remains of the -- if the
:01:24. > :01:28.last Plantaganet king of England are in a car park? The yellow
:01:29. > :01:38.marker marks the feet and the head near toast us. He's under the
:01:39. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:44.contact service parking space? Good evening. What happens when you
:01:44. > :01:47.have to look both ways at once? That's the dilemma for the Liberal
:01:48. > :01:50.Democrats at their annual knees-up in Brighton. One minute they're
:01:50. > :01:54.boasting about what they've achieved in coalition Government.
:01:54. > :01:57.The next they're talking about a different economic model, almost a
:01:57. > :01:59.Plan B, that they'd deliver if they had a Government of our own. Our
:01:59. > :02:07.political editor Allegra Stratton is there watching them twist and
:02:07. > :02:11.turn. Vince Cable gave his speech today. It was quite a good speech.
:02:11. > :02:14.Many people rated it. The thing was what he demonstrated throughout it
:02:14. > :02:17.was that throughout being in Government he's been able to
:02:17. > :02:22.persuade the Tories and cajole them into some of his ideas, like the
:02:22. > :02:27.bank. For many months he wanted it and now he's got them to sign off
:02:27. > :02:31.on it. He was rude about the Labour Party throughout his speech. The
:02:31. > :02:34.idea that Vince Cable is a shoe-in to go into Government with the
:02:34. > :02:37.Labour Party, if there was a hung Parliament, is wrong. This was
:02:37. > :02:44.today a speech where he was showing that he could do a deal with both
:02:44. > :02:48.parties. This time last year, he described
:02:48. > :02:55.battling the recession as a war. And he meant it. Now he's come to
:02:55. > :02:57.stand for many things, V for Vince, V for victory and even for some of
:02:57. > :03:01.his supporters, V For Vendetta. There's a lot riding on these two
:03:01. > :03:06.shoulders or two fingers. There's great anxiety in the hall about
:03:06. > :03:12.what to do about both the party's fortune and also the economy. For
:03:13. > :03:15.many, Vince Cable is the man to turn both around. First, the
:03:15. > :03:19.obligatory crowd pleaser, a suggestion that the Conservatives
:03:19. > :03:22.were turned on by sacking people, an offence to the majority of
:03:22. > :03:28.Tories who believe in greater deregulation. We've seen off the
:03:28. > :03:33.head bangers, who want a hire and firaclure and seem to find the idea
:03:33. > :03:40.of sacking people as some kind of aphrodisiac.
:03:40. > :03:45.With that done, onto V for vision, economic vision. We need a new
:03:45. > :03:49.British business bank with a clean balance sheet and an ability to
:03:49. > :03:54.expand lending rapidly to the manufacturers, exporters, the high
:03:54. > :04:01.growth companies that power our economy. And I can announce to you
:04:01. > :04:05.today that we will have one. This is no small thing. With �1 billion
:04:05. > :04:09.up front capital it's not far off the investment banks capital who
:04:10. > :04:13.have in the region of �5 billion. But it was familiar. This was
:04:13. > :04:18.broadcast at the weekend. actually, it's that this morning I,
:04:19. > :04:24.well I set up a community bank. What? You did what? You set up a
:04:24. > :04:27.bank? I had a moment of weakness and they exploited it. Yeah we
:04:27. > :04:32.didn't have much choice because it was all going to piss in a kettle
:04:32. > :04:35.here. We had to get the Economist out of the way. What are you
:04:35. > :04:39.talking about? We were having a preliminary meeting when Phil
:04:39. > :04:43.started to crow. It was embarrassing. You bought a bank out
:04:43. > :04:48.of social embarrassment? I sometimes buy the big issue out of
:04:49. > :04:52.social embarrassment, I don't buy a -- buy a fucking bank. That the
:04:52. > :04:55.thick of it beat the Business Secretary to announcing his own
:04:55. > :04:59.policy is because Vince Cable has been talking about this bank for
:04:59. > :05:03.some time now. The Chancellor and Vince Cable have been pushing what
:05:03. > :05:08.is an activist and interventionist straty. Many inside Government say
:05:08. > :05:12.there's a lot of Plan B in this Plan A. Nonetheless, some in the
:05:12. > :05:17.party want Plan B, the actual thing. They hay vote in the afternoon. It
:05:17. > :05:22.was rejected. In his speech Cable ridiculed Ed Balls call for a Plan
:05:22. > :05:28.B. He might as well have been ridiculing some of his own audience.
:05:28. > :05:37.Even so, see how thae plauz. Balls says, workers of the world
:05:37. > :05:44.unite, we need a Plan B. We should, he says, not cut the deficit in six
:05:44. > :05:50.years, but seven. Wow! The key paragraph is probably this one
:05:50. > :05:56.coming up, his bank will help. But Cable knows other efforts may be
:05:56. > :06:02.needed. Right now we're fighting recession and the need is for a
:06:02. > :06:08.demand stimulus. The country must not get stuck in a downward
:06:08. > :06:13.escalator where slow or no growth means bigger deficits, leading to
:06:13. > :06:21.more cuts and even slower growth. That is the way to economic
:06:21. > :06:26.disaster and political on livion. Note that mention of political
:06:26. > :06:30.oblivion, the opinion polls suggest Cable is a political chezman
:06:30. > :06:34.capable of bringing back long departed voters. Conservatives are
:06:34. > :06:39.beginning to push that they think their friend Nick Clegg is a busted
:06:39. > :06:42.frush and instead Vince Cable should become Deputy Prime Minister
:06:42. > :06:45.at some point. Why? The argument goes if you have Vince Cable as
:06:45. > :06:50.Deputy Prime Minister it's easier to see how you have a PM David
:06:50. > :06:53.Cameron in the future and harder to see how Ed Miliband would run his
:06:53. > :06:56.own Government. That is the Conservative plan V. When we ask
:06:56. > :06:59.people how they would vote if Vince Cable were leader of the Liberal
:06:59. > :07:03.Democrats rather than Nick Clegg, the votes go up from around three
:07:03. > :07:08.million to around four million. Not back to the seven million there
:07:09. > :07:13.were in 2010. But a useful lift. It looks to me as if the bulk of this
:07:13. > :07:16.extra million come from people who voted Lib Dem last time, went back
:07:16. > :07:21.to Labour because they didn't like the coalition and would consider
:07:21. > :07:27.voting for another left of centre Lib Dem leader. Would it make a
:07:27. > :07:31.second Prime Ministerial term for David Cameron more likely? All the
:07:31. > :07:35.calculations of who will do a deal after the next election depends
:07:35. > :07:39.critically on the numbers. Unless Labour and Conservatives are very
:07:39. > :07:43.close together, if there's a hung Parliament, the Lib Dems will be
:07:43. > :07:47.forced, as last time, to do a deal with the larger partyment Of course,
:07:47. > :07:50.what dot Lib Dems hate more than anything else? It's being told by
:07:50. > :07:57.other people who should be their leader. That was a future leader
:07:57. > :08:02.speaking, wasn't it? Oh, he's excellent, yes. But I think he has
:08:02. > :08:08.always enjoyed being in the, on the finance side. I think this
:08:08. > :08:13.conference is going to help Nick Clegg build himself up again. It's
:08:13. > :08:19.not us we're angry with him, it's the people on the doorstep, who say
:08:19. > :08:22.oh, he increased the tuition fees. When he explain it's properly, they
:08:22. > :08:26.are aggressive with you, but then they are ready to listen. We're
:08:27. > :08:31.getting our members back. Business Secretary went where
:08:31. > :08:34.others haven't gone so far. He predicted a hung Parliament at the
:08:34. > :08:41.next election. I don't believe actually that the British people
:08:41. > :08:45.will want to entrust their future to any one party next time. If
:08:45. > :08:49.wapbtsz... There we have it from the mouth of Vince Cable, the
:08:49. > :08:54.British electorate won't trust themselves to have one party. What
:08:54. > :08:59.is he up to with this plan? If you ask small businesses what their
:08:59. > :09:05.problem is at the moment, you hear a lot of the F Word. We heard the
:09:05. > :09:10.Thick of it there. The F word for businesses is finance. They can't
:09:10. > :09:14.get. It Vince Cable's department estimates between 90 and �180
:09:14. > :09:18.billion worth of finance is missing from the system. What they'll do is
:09:18. > :09:23.take �1 billion worth of taxpayers' money, with private sector money,
:09:23. > :09:27.maybe �10 billion, it gets lent, as a one off to try and just plug a
:09:27. > :09:33.bit this afternoon gap. How radical is this? Frankly some small
:09:33. > :09:39.businesses can't take the 18 months. It's small. It's not exactly the
:09:39. > :09:45.speediest move from A to B in terms of plans. But north Dakota has a
:09:45. > :09:50.bigger state investment bank than �1 billion. It has $4 billion
:09:50. > :09:55.investment bank. Germany 18 billion. It says taxpayers' money can be put
:09:55. > :09:59.at risk to lend, albeit indirectly, straight to private businesses and
:09:59. > :10:02.that lending can be state directed. The Government will choose sectors,
:10:02. > :10:06.regions, maybe individual businesses that it thinks are a
:10:06. > :10:10.good bet for the overall economic strategy. 13 years of the New
:10:10. > :10:18.Labour third way never produced that. Whatever his detractors will
:10:18. > :10:23.say tonight. Vince has put his name on the bank. The same was -- as
:10:23. > :10:27.Boris his put his name on bikes. It's a real thing. The need to do
:10:27. > :10:31.this was to do something completely different? Well, I mean, look, it's
:10:32. > :10:35.a tacit admission that all the other things they have done, the
:10:36. > :10:40.Project Merlin, the voluntary hitting the targets by banks,
:10:40. > :10:44.haven't worked. Trying to get RBS as an investment bank, none of it
:10:44. > :10:50.has resulted in lending to British businesses. They are crying out for
:10:50. > :10:55.money. They need that capital to be able to do what Cable has
:10:55. > :11:00.skphrainked, which is a demand-led recovery. Thanks very much.
:11:00. > :11:02.Earlier I spoke to David Laws, the Schools Minister, who has cross-
:11:02. > :11:07.Government responsibility for policy. I asked how the investment
:11:07. > :11:12.bank to have an impact on the current economic situation if it
:11:12. > :11:16.isn't going to start for 18 months. This is an extraordinary measure in
:11:16. > :11:19.extraordinary times. It's the right thing to do. It comes on top of a
:11:19. > :11:24.series of other pro-growth measures taken by the Government, including
:11:24. > :11:27.the funding for lending scheme, which is under way, in which the
:11:28. > :11:30.Bank of England is getting additional credit to the existing
:11:30. > :11:35.financial institutions to help them to lend and keep the price of
:11:35. > :11:38.credit down. This was one of six, seven, eight, nine, ten, pro-growth
:11:38. > :11:42.initiatives being taken by the Government over the last few months.
:11:42. > :11:46.So then, we'll have another announcement, another bone being
:11:46. > :11:50.thrown by Nick Clegg tomorrow. That will be �100 million extra for
:11:50. > :11:54.nursery places. Where is the money coming from? It's coming from the
:11:54. > :11:59.existing capital allocation that is granted by the Treasury to the
:11:59. > :12:02.Department for Education. It hasn't been allocated yet. But it's
:12:02. > :12:05.incredibly important for the delivery of the pledge we made as a
:12:05. > :12:11.Government that Nick Clegg was very much involved in that we would
:12:11. > :12:17.provide additional places so there could be a free 15 hours of nursery,
:12:17. > :12:24.early years education for every two-year-old from the... So it's
:12:24. > :12:27.not new money? It's just shifting money from another part of the
:12:27. > :12:31.education budget. It's not a pledge of new money. It's not something
:12:31. > :12:39.that Nick Clegg has managed to ring out of the Department of Education,
:12:39. > :12:45.something new. It's just old money. It is money which Nick and others
:12:45. > :12:48.have managed to negotiate with Michael Gove to allocate to
:12:48. > :12:52.specifically to deliver the pledge to increase the number of places,
:12:52. > :12:56.free places for two-year-olds, which is incredibly important for
:12:56. > :13:00.making sure that we get a high quality of early years education,
:13:00. > :13:07.particularly for those most disadvantaged young people.
:13:07. > :13:11.who's loseing out, who's loseing �100 million in the Department of
:13:11. > :13:15.Education. If it's not new money, somewhere else is suffering?
:13:15. > :13:18.comes out of the overall capital allocation that the Department for
:13:18. > :13:22.Education has. Some of that gets allocated at the beginning of the
:13:22. > :13:26.year. Some of that throughout the year. This is an allocation which
:13:26. > :13:30.Nick Clegg has agreed with Michael Gove will go specifically into
:13:30. > :13:33.providing those places for two- year-olds, those 15 hours of free
:13:33. > :13:39.early years education, which is such an important part of our
:13:39. > :13:42.strategy to give the best possible opportunities for young people from
:13:42. > :13:45.more disadvantaged backgrounds. Let's be clear on where we stand on
:13:45. > :13:52.the Government spending plans, because at the 2011 Autumn
:13:52. > :13:59.Statement, Danny Alexander agreed with George Osborne that they would
:13:59. > :14:04.stick to the spending plans for 2015/16 and 16/17, but that's not
:14:05. > :14:08.the case any more. But Nick Clegg said it was just 15/16. So you
:14:08. > :14:13.diverge with the rest of the coalition on this? No, there are
:14:13. > :14:18.separate issues. The first thing is that the Government is part of his
:14:18. > :14:21.long-term planning, budget planning has to set out a level of total
:14:21. > :14:24.public expenditure in order to meet the fiscal mandate which looks five
:14:24. > :14:29.years ahead. That's exactly what the Chancellor did in the Autumn
:14:29. > :14:32.Statement. In addition to that, the Government has to agree the
:14:32. > :14:36.detailed departmental break down of that total figure for expenditure.
:14:36. > :14:41.We have that so far for every year of this Parliament. I understand
:14:41. > :14:46.now. That means then that the Chancellor agrees now with Nick
:14:46. > :14:51.Clegg that actually, these spending plans for 2015/16 are the final
:14:51. > :14:54.spending plans? It means that so far we've agreed the detailed
:14:54. > :14:59.spending plans for each department and for the welfare budget right
:14:59. > :15:03.through to the end of 2014/15. However, it's very clear that at
:15:03. > :15:08.the very least we will have to have detailed departmental spending
:15:08. > :15:18.plans and welfare plans for 2015/16, because the general election is
:15:18. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:27.going to take place within that Danny Alexander was wrong? No, he
:15:27. > :15:31.was right. What he said was we will have to have detailed plans. That
:15:31. > :15:36.is a separate issue that in the Autumn Statement last year there
:15:36. > :15:39.was a planning assumption set out for total managed expenditure going
:15:39. > :15:43.into 2016/17. What we are now talking about is the extent to
:15:43. > :15:47.which we have a detailed breakdown of those overall figures for
:15:47. > :15:50.particular years. Nick Clegg said that it is wrong to have a further
:15:50. > :15:56.welfare cut of �10 billion. What is acceptable to the Liberal
:15:56. > :16:02.Democrats? �1 billion? �2 billion? What is not acceptable to us is
:16:02. > :16:06.that we should go into a second stage of auster toy -- austerity to
:16:06. > :16:10.reduce borrowing without there being a contribution from those
:16:10. > :16:20.people on very high income. You will remember when the coalition
:16:20. > :16:21.
:16:21. > :16:23.was formed, there was a contribution from taxation. And
:16:24. > :16:28.more recently, Nick has become concerned that some of the debate
:16:28. > :16:31.in the media and elsewhere has focused just on there being a
:16:31. > :16:39.contribution to any further austerity from departmental
:16:39. > :16:42.spending. �10 billion on welfare - a �10 billion cut in welfare is
:16:42. > :16:47.unacceptable to the Liberal Democrats? There is no movement on
:16:47. > :16:50.that? What's unacceptable for us is that the next stage of austerity
:16:50. > :16:53.should simply consist of welfare cuts for people on low incomes
:16:53. > :16:59.without people on high incomes making a decent contribution. That
:16:59. > :17:04.is the case in the first round of fiscal austerity after 2010 and
:17:04. > :17:07.that's got to be the case for any further austerity going ahead. That
:17:07. > :17:12.is the view that most commonsense members of the public would have
:17:12. > :17:18.that people on high incomes have to make a sensible contribution.
:17:18. > :17:28.become - we get nearer the election, the coalition looks less and less
:17:28. > :17:29.
:17:29. > :17:34.tenable because you cannot - you have to distance yourself otherwise
:17:34. > :17:39.it becomes crazy, because you diverge on so many issues? I think
:17:39. > :17:43.there is a great degree of unity in a lot of policy areas in the
:17:43. > :17:47.coalition, particularly on the economic strategy. There is going
:17:47. > :17:51.to be renewed focus in the autumn for us to agree a common programme
:17:51. > :17:55.of policies that will take us through the last two-and-a-half
:17:55. > :17:59.years of this Parliament. It is inevitably the case, though, that
:17:59. > :18:03.as we get into the last three or six months running towards a
:18:03. > :18:11.general election, the parties will be focused on delivering the agreed
:18:11. > :18:15.programme and on setting out their competing visions of where they
:18:15. > :18:19.should go. That's just obvious. Most of the Parliament will be able
:18:19. > :18:26.to work co-operatively together. Of course, before the next general
:18:26. > :18:29.election, there will be a focus on the future. Thank you very much.
:18:29. > :18:32.He's cost the British taxpayer many millions in legal and detentions
:18:32. > :18:34.costs, but Abu Hamza's appeal against extradition, and that of
:18:34. > :18:40.four other terror suspects have been unanimously rejected by
:18:40. > :18:43.Europe's Human Rights Judges. So, within a few weeks, the radical
:18:43. > :18:48.cleric could be put on a plane to the United States to face multiple
:18:48. > :18:52.charges. I'm joined by Peter Marshall. What these cases have in
:18:52. > :18:56.common, all five, is that all the individuals applied to the European
:18:56. > :19:01.Court to stop their extradition to the US because they said they
:19:01. > :19:04.feared in these US top-security prisons they could be subjected to
:19:04. > :19:09.torture or cruel and inhumane treatment. The European Court
:19:09. > :19:16.turned down their request in April and today they turned down their
:19:16. > :19:20.application to lodge an appeal. are they? Well, like Frank Sinatra,
:19:20. > :19:30.Abu Hamza needs no introduction. I reported on his activities 11 years
:19:30. > :19:37.
:19:37. > :19:41.ago when he took over the Finsbury Park Mosque. He revelled in his
:19:41. > :19:47.bloodthirsty reputation. Eventually, in 2006, he was jailed for seven
:19:47. > :19:52.years by a UK court for soliciting murder and inciting racial hatred.
:19:52. > :20:01.That's different from anything that he's wanted for in America. How
:20:01. > :20:05.extensive are these... That's in connection with his alleged
:20:05. > :20:10.association with a kidnap of 16 Western tourists in Yemen. There
:20:10. > :20:16.was a shoot-out at the end when the Yemeni authorities attempted to
:20:16. > :20:21.rescue these tourists, but four were killed. The Americans want him
:20:21. > :20:26.for trying to set up a training camp in the US. What about the
:20:26. > :20:31.others? Most notable is Babar Ahmad, a student and computer expert who
:20:31. > :20:35.has been in custody without trial since 2004. That is eight years.
:20:35. > :20:41.The Americans say he was soliciting funds for terrorist activities on a
:20:41. > :20:45.website he ran. He denies that and he's waged a long campaign with a
:20:45. > :20:53.lot of support. If he is to be tried anywhere, his supporters say
:20:53. > :20:57.it should be the UK. The others are Syed Talha Ahsan and two other men,
:20:57. > :21:01.Adel Abdul Bary and Khaled Al Fawwaz, who were accused of being
:21:01. > :21:06.aides to Osama Bin Laden. The Home Office have said that they could be
:21:06. > :21:09.gone within days, certainly within weeks. Thank you.
:21:09. > :21:11.In Birmingham is Fahad Ansari, a human rights lawyer and Babar
:21:11. > :21:14.Ahmad's brother-in-law. From Washington, we're joined by David
:21:14. > :21:17.Rivkin, a lawyer who worked in the Justice Department and as an
:21:17. > :21:19.associate White House Counsel in the Reagan and Bush Senior
:21:19. > :21:27.administrations. And here in London, the Conservative MP, Patrick Mercer,
:21:27. > :21:32.the former chairman of the Commons Counter-Terrorism Sub-Committee.
:21:32. > :21:36.Fahad Ansari, what is your reaction to tonight's decision? We are
:21:36. > :21:40.obviously quite disappointed with Europe's decision. We are not very
:21:40. > :21:44.surprised. It is really irrelevant for us. This matter should never
:21:45. > :21:49.have even reached Strasbourg. If the British police had done their
:21:49. > :21:54.job nine years ago, and submitted the material seized from Babar
:21:54. > :21:58.Ahmad's home to the domestic prosecution authorities rather than
:21:58. > :22:02.secretly sending it to their US counterparts, Babar Ahmad would
:22:03. > :22:08.have been prosecuted in this country and if convicted, would
:22:09. > :22:12.have been released by now. Nothing to do with Abu Hamza, it is Babar
:22:12. > :22:20.Ahmad's case that you are pursuing? Absolutely. Obviously, my
:22:20. > :22:24.involvement with these cases has been with Babar Ahmad's case as a
:22:24. > :22:27.family member and a campaign member from the last seven or eight years.
:22:27. > :22:30.This issue, he is a British citizen, he is someone who has worked and
:22:30. > :22:33.lived in this country his entire life. He's someone who is accused
:22:34. > :22:38.of a crime committed in this country. The crime was not
:22:38. > :22:41.committed in America. It was not committed in Russia or Pakistan. He
:22:41. > :22:45.should face trial in this country. We have never said that he should
:22:45. > :22:49.escape trial. We have always called for him to face the serious
:22:49. > :22:52.questions in a British court of law. That is the judicial process
:22:52. > :22:59.running its long course, Patrick Mercer. Do you accept that it had
:22:59. > :23:03.to take this length of time? disappointed that this has had to
:23:03. > :23:07.take this length of time. These men are innocent until proved guilty.
:23:07. > :23:11.We must not get away from that. What I do think is quite wrong is
:23:11. > :23:14.that individuals should have had to spend this amount of time, not just
:23:14. > :23:19.being deeply concerned about their future, not knowing whether they
:23:19. > :23:24.are found guilty or innocent, but absorbing British taxpayers' money.
:23:24. > :23:27.I wish it hadn't taken this long. I'm glad we seem to be approaching
:23:27. > :23:31.a resolution. Do you make any quantitative difference between
:23:31. > :23:34.alleged crimes committed here and abroad, as Fahad Ansari is saying?
:23:34. > :23:40.I think that individuals should be tried in the country where the
:23:40. > :23:44.crime is committed. David Rivkin, what is your view of tonight's
:23:45. > :23:49.decision? Well, it's high time. My view is the reason it's taken so
:23:49. > :23:55.many years is because these individuals and lawyers have
:23:55. > :23:58.advanced all sorts of arguments for the British Criminal Justice System,
:23:58. > :24:04.then for the European justice system. I don't understand they
:24:04. > :24:08.should have been tried only in the United Kingdom. Under our
:24:08. > :24:18.extradition treaty with Great Britain, if you commit a crime that
:24:18. > :24:18.
:24:18. > :24:24.takes place using electronic means, using websites, using other
:24:24. > :24:28.communications there is a variety of choices prosecutors have. I
:24:28. > :24:32.don't know any principle that says you should only be tried in Britain,
:24:32. > :24:36.or France, or Germany. The notion they would be tortured in the
:24:36. > :24:39.United States is preposterous. The reason the arguments took so long
:24:39. > :24:42.to resolve is because the lawyers pressed all the buttons. I don't
:24:42. > :24:47.feel any sympathy for them. lawyers pressed all the buttons
:24:47. > :24:52.that there were there to press? should they complain about how long
:24:52. > :24:56.it's taken? It is a silly argument, don't you think? Fahad Ansari, can
:24:56. > :25:00.you respond? For a representative of the Government of the United
:25:00. > :25:05.States to argue that the United States doesn't torture is
:25:05. > :25:09.preposterous. As regards to this specific case, we have due process.
:25:09. > :25:15.The problem was, there was an abuse of that process nine years ago when
:25:15. > :25:19.the evidence was not given to the DPP. In terms of prosecuting Babar
:25:19. > :25:22.Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan in this country, the offence has taken
:25:22. > :25:25.place in the United Kingdom. They are British citizens, they have not
:25:26. > :25:30.stepped foot in the United States. So why should they be extradited to
:25:30. > :25:35.the United States? The websites in question were accused of running
:25:35. > :25:39.campaigns in Chechnya, so if that was the case, why haven't Russia
:25:40. > :25:43.requested the extradition? And in Afghanistan. Again, there is a
:25:43. > :25:49.British interest. 150,000 people signed a petition for Babar Ahmad
:25:49. > :25:53.to be tried in this country. There is enormous public interest. The
:25:53. > :25:58.DPP has that evidence for the first time in eight years. They have been
:25:58. > :26:02.presented with the evidence and he is trustworthy and honest and
:26:02. > :26:07.integrity enough to make a proper decision on this. David Rivkin, the
:26:07. > :26:11.question that Babar Ahmad and others ask is whether or not these
:26:11. > :26:14.men will get a fair trial in America? I would say of course
:26:14. > :26:19.they'll get a fair trial. I don't know what evidence of torture the
:26:19. > :26:22.gentleman is talking about. I can tell you even if you don't like
:26:23. > :26:27.military justice systems in Guantanamo, they will be tried in
:26:27. > :26:31.the civilian justice system. That is THE most due process-laden
:26:31. > :26:35.system in the world. If I was a guilty person, I would rather be
:26:35. > :26:40.tried in the United States than anywhere in the world. If he is
:26:40. > :26:44.convicted, he will be serving his time in humane conditions without
:26:44. > :26:49.any torture. This is all quite preposterous. One more thing. I
:26:49. > :26:53.don't understand the notion that had he been prosecuted in the UK he
:26:53. > :26:57.would somehow have not been eligible for extradition to the
:26:57. > :27:00.United States. The American government made a showing to the
:27:00. > :27:09.Criminal Justice System that they have committed a crime... That is
:27:09. > :27:13.not true. You display your ignorance of the Treaty. That is
:27:13. > :27:17.the problem with this treaty which campaigners have been... Let me
:27:17. > :27:22.bring Patrick Mercer in on this. These are strained relations?
:27:22. > :27:25.course it is. I believe that they will get a proper trial in America.
:27:25. > :27:30.I'm convinced of that. Above everything else, no matter what the
:27:31. > :27:36.lawyers say, if I talk to my constituents, 99 out of 100 - and I
:27:36. > :27:39.have tried to do this - say, "Get these men out of this country, get
:27:39. > :27:44.them back to the country whereas they will receive the proper
:27:44. > :27:48.trial." Is this a victory for the European Courts? I think - I don't
:27:48. > :27:52.think it is a victory at all. This has taken far too long for us to
:27:53. > :27:57.come to this particular point. What I would say is I hope that in the
:27:57. > :27:59.future that our Government looks towards its memoranda of
:27:59. > :28:04.understanding that it has negotiated with the various
:28:04. > :28:07.countries involved and invokes those properly and early? People
:28:08. > :28:12.have the recourse of the European Court, that is their right?
:28:12. > :28:15.course they do. The fact remains that I think the majority of the
:28:15. > :28:19.people inside this country deeply resent the amount of time that
:28:19. > :28:25.these individuals have stayed here and consumed their taxes. Now, at
:28:26. > :28:31.last, we are getting the right result. I would second that. Fahad
:28:31. > :28:37.Ansari, what is your next step? would request the Home Secretary to
:28:37. > :28:39.undertake not to extradite Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan until
:28:39. > :28:42.the Director of Public Prosecutions has made a decision on whether
:28:42. > :28:47.there is a case to answer for them being prosecuted in the UK. For the
:28:47. > :28:50.first time, he has the evidence which was kept hidden from the
:28:50. > :28:57.Crown Prosecution Service for eight years and he's a man of integrity.
:28:57. > :29:01.I trust he will make the same decision that 150,000 people, more
:29:01. > :29:04.people than in Theresa May's constituency have asked for. Thank
:29:04. > :29:07.you. Like all scandals that threaten the careers of Cabinet
:29:07. > :29:11.ministers, it is the length of time they are in the headlines and
:29:11. > :29:15.questions that remain unanswered that often prove to be their
:29:15. > :29:19.undoing. And so the Government's Chief Whip was up early this
:29:19. > :29:23.morning to speak truth unto the nation that he didn't call Downing
:29:23. > :29:27.Street police officers "plebs". His problem, however, remains that many,
:29:27. > :29:35.including the police, still maintain that is not quite the
:29:35. > :29:40.truth. 8.02am, a camera crew is summoned
:29:40. > :29:46.to Whitehall on the promise that Andrew Mitchell, the Chief Whip,
:29:46. > :29:51.was to break his silence. He arrived not in any grand
:29:51. > :29:59.ministerial Jag, but in a hatchback, a pleb's car, were one ever to use
:29:59. > :30:03.What exactly did you say to the police officers on Wednesday?
:30:03. > :30:07.wants first of all to reiterate the apology I made last week, after the
:30:07. > :30:11.incident on Wednesday night in Downing Street. It had been the end
:30:11. > :30:15.of a long and extremely frustrating day, not that that is any excuse at
:30:15. > :30:18.all for what happened. I didn't show the police the amount of
:30:18. > :30:23.respect I should have done. We should all respect the police. They
:30:23. > :30:27.do an incredibly difficult job. I've apologised to the police. I've
:30:28. > :30:32.apologised to the police officer involved on the gate and he's
:30:32. > :30:36.accepted my apology. I hope very much that we can draw a line under
:30:36. > :30:39.it there. It hadn't worked before the weekend. So limiting his
:30:39. > :30:43.comments to camera to what he said in a written statement on Friday
:30:44. > :30:47.was never going to work now. Mr Mitchell far from drawing a line
:30:47. > :30:52.under this issue, simply seemed to underscore his failure to address
:30:52. > :30:55.the key questions. Had he sworn at the police and had he called them
:30:55. > :30:59.plebs? I'm very clear about what I said and what I didn't say. I want
:30:59. > :31:03.to make it absolutely clear that I did not use the words that have
:31:03. > :31:08.been attributed to me. With that he was gone, dais peering into the
:31:08. > :31:13.Cabinet Office only yards from the scene of his original troubles. The
:31:13. > :31:17.Sun meanwhile had its teeth in Mr Mitchell's rump and wasn't letting
:31:17. > :31:23.go. Its leading political columnist said it was serious and simple, Mr
:31:23. > :31:28.Mitchell had to take the police to law. If the police are indeed lying,
:31:28. > :31:34.which is the only other alternative, which is a substantial lie if it's
:31:34. > :31:39.correct, they have an officer in the diplomatic protection service
:31:39. > :31:44.who has given evidence on her official log... Backed up by others
:31:44. > :31:47.as well. Backed up by witnesss in the same service. Why would they do
:31:47. > :31:51.that? Why concoct a story which would be extremely damaging and
:31:51. > :31:55.then to leak it to the press? You're saying Mr Mitchell is
:31:55. > :31:59.obliged either to sue or resign? think he has no choice. He has to
:31:59. > :32:02.take them on. This cannot be allowed to stand. Home Secretary
:32:02. > :32:06.found earlier this year how taking the police on, over pay and
:32:06. > :32:10.pensions would lead to real difficulties. Trevor Kavanagh says
:32:10. > :32:15.David Cameron is now to reap the whirlwind from Mitchellgate. One of
:32:15. > :32:20.the problems that arises from this is that the Prime Minister has now
:32:20. > :32:23.come out whole heartedly in support of the police in such a way, that
:32:23. > :32:26.it weakens the operation, the policy that the Government's
:32:26. > :32:30.pursuing of trying to reform the police. It gives the moral high
:32:30. > :32:33.ground to the Police Federation, which is resisting by tooth and
:32:33. > :32:38.nail everything that the Home Secretary is trying to do to reform
:32:38. > :32:42.the Police Service. Mr Mitchell may be very clear about what he said.
:32:42. > :32:45.Others aren't. His friends have been briefing he did swear at the
:32:45. > :32:50.police officers, one policewoman and one policeman, but he didn't
:32:50. > :32:54.call them plebs, the class word. The Sun today repeated what it said
:32:54. > :32:59.they said he'd said. "Best you learn your (BLEEP)ing place. You
:32:59. > :33:03.don't run this (BLEEP)ing Government. You're (BLEEP)ing
:33:03. > :33:07.plebs." Sun which many see as the Conservative party of the plebian
:33:07. > :33:12.wing say Mr Mitchell's comments wreck David Cameron's attempts to
:33:12. > :33:15.rid the party of its image as posh boys and Bullingdon Club bullies.
:33:15. > :33:19.Their coalition partners, who have to take their laughs where they
:33:19. > :33:24.find them, were tickled pink by Vince Cable's efforts to rejoin the
:33:24. > :33:29.class war at their party conference. Being told however that jokes about
:33:29. > :33:32.social class are not good for the unity of the coalition. But as a
:33:32. > :33:37.mere pleb, I couldn't resist it. LAUGHTER
:33:37. > :33:41.APPLAUSE The Liberal Democrats Home Office
:33:41. > :33:45.minister playing it straight said in his view Andrew Mitchell still
:33:45. > :33:48.had a lot of explaining to do. can understand as well why people
:33:48. > :33:52.feel we need to get to the bottom of it and explaining to the media
:33:52. > :33:57.what was not said is not the same as explaining what was said. There
:33:57. > :34:01.is a sense of all the loose ends not being tied up. There was some
:34:01. > :34:05.relief for Mr Mitchell tonight with the Cabinet Secretary ruling he won
:34:05. > :34:08.be investigated because the police officer had made no complaint. Mr
:34:08. > :34:13.Mitchell is denying telling the officers from the Diplomatic
:34:13. > :34:19.Protection Group "you haven't heard the last of this." He'll be hoping
:34:19. > :34:21.it is the last of it. Extraordinary goings on in a car
:34:21. > :34:28.park in Leicester could change history and resurrect the
:34:28. > :34:33.reputation of a king, who's been marked by history as a grotesque
:34:33. > :34:37.murderer. If the remains are those of Richard III it may start a chain
:34:37. > :34:42.of events which would render Shakespeare's famous play and
:34:42. > :34:47.history books suspect. He may not have killed his nephews after all.
:34:47. > :34:53.Who knows. Much to discuss in a moment. First David grosman has
:34:53. > :34:58.been watching as events unfold. If you don't know your Plantaganet
:34:58. > :35:03.from a hole in the ground, you probably still know Richard III.
:35:03. > :35:07.Now is the winter of our discontent... That's him, or is it?
:35:07. > :35:10.At the bottom of a hole in the ground in a Council car park in
:35:10. > :35:16.Leicester, wre told there have been located the bones of the last
:35:16. > :35:19.Plantaganet king. This particular performance of Richard III closes
:35:19. > :35:24.soon. They start filling in the hole tomorrow. But what this ark
:35:24. > :35:29.logical dig has really uncovered is how deep feelings still run about
:35:29. > :35:33.this long dead monarch. There are people in Britain, indeed all round
:35:33. > :35:37.the world who are spectacularly furious that their hero should be
:35:37. > :35:45.portrayed as a tyrant. There's a lot of information about Richard
:35:45. > :35:51.III before the Tudor writers to get to him. What you can see is
:35:51. > :35:56.perversely, you see a man who was loyal, brave, pius and just. It's
:35:56. > :36:00.completely the opposite of Shakespeare's portrayal. This
:36:00. > :36:06.wasn't just you came along, dug the car park and found bones and you
:36:06. > :36:09.thought, well that could be Richard III? Not quite. The lead
:36:09. > :36:12.archaeologist on the dig is Richard Buckley from the University of
:36:12. > :36:17.Leicester. He said the first clue was the position of the body in the
:36:17. > :36:19.part of an extra investigated friary which corps responds with
:36:20. > :36:25.contemporary reports. But there was more compelling evidence.
:36:25. > :36:29.second thing is the signs on the skeletal remains themselves,
:36:29. > :36:36.particularly the spinal abnormality, trauma to the skull and then the
:36:36. > :36:38.remains of this projectile point between two vertebrae. It was an
:36:38. > :36:43.unusual burial in that clearly somebody had died a violent death
:36:43. > :36:49.and it was if the choir of a church. And there the spinal abnormality. I
:36:49. > :36:53.thought that was all Shakespeare's imagination. Well, this is, this
:36:53. > :36:56.abnormality doesn't necessarily mean that he was a hunch back as
:36:56. > :37:02.Shakespeare says. It's an abnormality that lots of people
:37:02. > :37:06.have. It may mean one shoulder was higher than the other. That got
:37:06. > :37:11.exaggerated in the telling. He did ride into battle and so forth. It
:37:11. > :37:16.didn't affect his mobility at all. Do you feel a sort of, an affinity
:37:16. > :37:20.with him here. Do you find an emotional connection with Richard
:37:20. > :37:26.III as a character or is he just a person from history? I'm beginning
:37:26. > :37:34.to, funnily enough. As an orkologist we dig barials all the
:37:34. > :37:38.time. Usually they're unnamed people. We know nothing about them.
:37:38. > :37:44.To find a burial of a potentially named individual and somebody who
:37:44. > :37:47.has died a violent death, yes, it's a moving experience.
:37:47. > :37:53.# Heifer had a hump and my arm was all right #
:37:53. > :37:56.There have been attempts to rehabilitate Richard, like on
:37:56. > :38:03.horrible histories, the children's programme.
:38:03. > :38:08.# Tudor propaganda, it's all absurd # Time to tell the truth about King
:38:08. > :38:11.Richard III # It was Shakespeare who took
:38:11. > :38:16.Richard's reputation, but should recare? After all in return he gave
:38:16. > :38:25.us a great work of literature. Shakespeare did him an odd favour,
:38:25. > :38:30.didn't they, because Edward IV and Henry VII don't rank very high and
:38:30. > :38:38.in the middle is Richard III who is a major figure, for all the wrong
:38:38. > :38:43.reasons. So Shakespeare's done him a sort of strange service. Between
:38:43. > :38:47.infamy and being forgotten... you choose infamy? I suppose you
:38:47. > :38:51.might, 500 years later. If you then get, if everyone then gets told
:38:52. > :38:56.that you weren't so bad after all. It might all work out very nicely
:38:56. > :39:01.for him. He gets the glamour and he gets a decent biography. And maybe
:39:01. > :39:04.a good funeral. Maybe. So what should happen to him now do you
:39:04. > :39:09.think? There's going to be much debate between interested parties
:39:09. > :39:13.as to his final resting place. State funeral do you think?
:39:13. > :39:17.knows. I wouldn't like to say. Might be nice. We've had the
:39:17. > :39:22.Jubilee and the Olympics, Richard III's state funeral could be the
:39:22. > :39:27.next big thing. We in Leicester would like to see him stay here.
:39:27. > :39:30.The people in York say he should come to York. People in London say
:39:30. > :39:36.oh, Westminster Abbey. Why Leicester? I suppose he died in
:39:36. > :39:39.Leicestershire at Bosworth. That is true. He's been buried here for 527
:39:39. > :39:43.years and nobody's shown any interest until now in looking for
:39:43. > :39:50.him and removing him. So finders keepers? Yeah, probably.
:39:50. > :39:54.# Now my tale is told, you won't hear a bad word
:39:54. > :40:02.# About a special ruler, King Richard III.
:40:02. > :40:09.I'm a nice guy. Here to help us decide whether it
:40:09. > :40:13.was good King Richard or crook back dig, are Dan Jones and Annette
:40:13. > :40:17.Carson author of Richard III the maligned king. Whether or not these
:40:17. > :40:22.are the bones of King Richard it won't make much difference to you
:40:22. > :40:27.because you think he's a good guy? Not being an historian I don't go
:40:27. > :40:33.in for judgments about people. I'm more interested in buy graphical
:40:33. > :40:38.material. I'm interested in people who make the best of a bad job.
:40:38. > :40:42.believe... They get dealt a bad hand and they get on with it.
:40:42. > :40:45.believe he was maligned. However you, tell me about what you think
:40:45. > :40:50.about this dig in the first place and whether or not it's going to be
:40:50. > :40:55.conclusive evidence? I think one of the impressive things is that they
:40:55. > :40:59.found the spot. This was research which located the choir of the
:40:59. > :41:02.church of the grey friars and found a body which may or may not be
:41:02. > :41:06.Richard. If it is Richard and there's going to be the DNA
:41:06. > :41:10.decision, it doesn't actually alter anything in history about whether
:41:10. > :41:15.or not he did away with the Princes. That still is completely uncertain.
:41:16. > :41:20.Absolutely. If we found a skeleton the DNA tests prove is Richard III,
:41:20. > :41:25.then we've found a skeleton that DNA proves is he. It doesn't alter
:41:25. > :41:28.anything else we know of his career. Unless there is permission given in
:41:28. > :41:32.Westminster Abbey to dig up the Princes and see if there's a DNA
:41:32. > :41:37.connection with Richard, am I right? Yes, but it's a long shot as
:41:37. > :41:42.to whether that's likely to happen. I don't think anyone's agitating
:41:42. > :41:48.for it. What we're interested in now is the fact that Richard has
:41:48. > :41:52.become something of a cause celebre. The media are terrifically stirred
:41:52. > :41:55.up about it. People in England now are watching the television and
:41:55. > :41:59.thinking, oh, maybe I'll find out more about this guy. From that
:41:59. > :42:02.point of view, it can only be a good thing that he's become
:42:02. > :42:08.somebody that people are interested in right now. If you want to solve
:42:08. > :42:14.a mystery, that's really a whole different ball game. We're not
:42:14. > :42:18.detectives. But what would be exciting for you as an outcome from
:42:18. > :42:22.this? It would be exciting to know that we'd located the bones of
:42:22. > :42:25.Richard III. There's no doubt about that. Aside from that I don't know
:42:25. > :42:30.what more we're going to tell about Richard other than what we know
:42:30. > :42:34.already. We're not going to tell whether or not it was he who killed
:42:34. > :42:44.the Princes or Henry Tudor. Absolutely not. It's not going to
:42:44. > :42:44.
:42:44. > :42:48.alter one crime from his reign from which everything else followed.
:42:48. > :42:54.was saying if you looked at pre- Tudor sources there's less
:42:54. > :42:59.propaganda. There's a different view of King Richard. What we know
:42:59. > :43:02.about Richard before he became king and while he was king, he was a
:43:02. > :43:08.loyal aristocrat and a capable soldier. If this were his soldier,
:43:08. > :43:12.all the injuries, head wounds and arrow in the back, would be
:43:12. > :43:16.consistent with Tudor historians that he was a brave soldier on the
:43:16. > :43:22.battlefield. It is enormously fascinating, isn't it? People are
:43:22. > :43:26.gripped by this, because you don't find a monarch very often, do you?
:43:26. > :43:31.You don't. People are gripped by Richard III any way. The reign
:43:31. > :43:36.lasted two years. The gap between the black propaganda which emanated
:43:36. > :43:44.from Tudor historians, early in Henry VII reign and he was turned
:43:44. > :43:49.into a Plantaganet iago by Shakespeare. It seemed he was quite
:43:49. > :43:57.a competent king, although only for two years. And this deformed
:43:57. > :44:04.monster is so huge people are fascinated. Extol os is is not the
:44:04. > :44:08.Shakespearean humpback. It is not a hunch back, that has another name.
:44:08. > :44:13.Scoliosis is an S bend in the spine which makes one shoulder higher
:44:13. > :44:17.than the other and depending on the severity. When all the work is done
:44:17. > :44:21.on the body, then the big decision will have to be made about where to
:44:22. > :44:26.have the funeral and what kind of funeral to have. What's your view?
:44:26. > :44:30.It's out of our hands. At the moment, we have a plan and now
:44:30. > :44:35.suddenly a load of other people have leapt in. What's your plan?
:44:35. > :44:41.The plan has always been, according to good ark logical prob tis, if
:44:41. > :44:45.you exhume body when you reinter it, you place it in the nearest, the
:44:45. > :44:50.place that's nearest to where you exhumed it from. You go for
:44:50. > :44:53.Leicester? Yes. Would you go for York or Westminster Abbey? I think
:44:53. > :44:56.you have to stick with best practice and go with Leicester. I
:44:56. > :45:00.think the city of Leicester will be delighted. They have put a lot of
:45:00. > :45:04.work in it. They have closed a Council car park all summer.
:45:04. > :45:10.he's a monarch, shouldn't he be interred in Westminster Abbey?
:45:10. > :45:15.don't know. I think there would be something cartoonish for the bones
:45:15. > :45:19.of a medieval king. We haven't heard from the Queen. Westminster
:45:19. > :45:23.Abbey is actually a bit Tudor inclined you know. It's not the
:45:23. > :45:27.place I would have chosen. wouldn't be happy there then. Thank
:45:27. > :45:30.you both very much. And the front you both very much. And the front
:45:30. > :45:34.pages. The Sun go all out: Now cop pleb row minister claims outburst
:45:34. > :45:40.came after long and frustrating day, presumably this included his
:45:40. > :45:44.gruelling lunch time Serb at UK's poshest curry house. The Daily
:45:44. > :45:51.Telegraph, police log reveals details of the pleb rant and there
:45:51. > :45:54.the picture of Megan, mother's plea to run away. The Guardian - torture
:45:54. > :46:00.traumatised scar, the children caught up in Syria's war. And on
:46:00. > :46:05.their bottom page, Abu Hamza to be extradited to the US.
:46:05. > :46:11.That's all from Newsnight tonight. Sleep well, unlike as Richard III
:46:11. > :46:21.says the son's of Edward sleep in Abraham's boz om. Jeremy will be
:46:21. > :46:43.
:46:43. > :46:47.Hello. We seem to have roared straight into Autumn. Rain and
:46:47. > :46:50.gales continuing overnight and for Tuesday as well across northern
:46:50. > :46:55.England, Northern Ireland and across many parts of Wales too.
:46:55. > :47:00.Across Scotland the initial rain easing away across southern areas
:47:00. > :47:03.but the winds continue through the afternoon. As will the rain in
:47:03. > :47:07.North West England. Very different across the south-east. East Anglia,
:47:07. > :47:11.south-east England one or two showers but sunshine coming through.
:47:11. > :47:16.Temperatures 15 or 16 degrees. Persistent rain starts to swing
:47:16. > :47:19.back in to south-west England as the afternoon wears on. It turns
:47:19. > :47:24.increasingly wet across the rest of Wales too. Across North Wales it
:47:24. > :47:26.rains more much of the day. That could cause further problems.
:47:26. > :47:30.Northern Ireland, brisk northerly winds blowing the rain away. It
:47:30. > :47:37.make it's feel chilly, 12 or 13 degrees at best. Northern Scotland
:47:37. > :47:39.hang onto the rain and strongest winds. Still some rain around
:47:39. > :47:42.certainly and fairly low temperatures through Tuesday.
:47:42. > :47:46.Notice a bit less in the way of rain, once we get through to
:47:46. > :47:49.Wednesday and a better chance of one or two sunny intervals breaking
:47:49. > :47:52.through, certainly the case further south. Don't rule out heavy showers
:47:52. > :47:55.across southern parts of England during Wednesday. There could be