:00:10. > :00:14.You can hear it any pub in the land, eastern European migrants are
:00:14. > :00:20.taking British jobs. Tonight, how eastern European migrants are being
:00:20. > :00:25.exploited by British employers. To get around the law they're taken on
:00:25. > :00:35.as notionally self-employed. Contracts don't mean what you think
:00:35. > :00:38.
:00:38. > :00:42.they mean. Can you bring her down stirs. That is not a contract, it
:00:42. > :00:46.is provisional. We'll discuss why our immigration system is failing
:00:46. > :00:49.and what should be done to fix it. After days of protests the Spanish
:00:49. > :00:59.government tells its people that public spending is about to be cut
:00:59. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:06.drastically. In Madrid tonight, there are no protests, just
:01:06. > :01:09.resignation as 40 billion euros of cuts are announced.
:01:09. > :01:16.Exonerated in the summer, found guilty of the same alleged offence
:01:16. > :01:23.today. Is the captain of Chelsea a victim of double jeopardy? Does
:01:23. > :01:26.Magna Carter mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain? And, at least
:01:26. > :01:30.David Cameron knows a bit more. But what is it fair to expect a
:01:30. > :01:34.political leader to know? We've come up with our own quiz.
:01:34. > :01:38.Romania and Bulgaria are both part of the European Union. The European
:01:38. > :01:43.Union believes in free movement of labour. So both Bulgarians and
:01:43. > :01:46.Romanians are free to work here, right? Wrong. When the two
:01:46. > :01:50.countries joined the European Union, the Blair government promised
:01:50. > :01:54.strict conditions on those who came to work in Britain. This has not
:01:54. > :01:58.surprisingly perhaps, turned out to be meaningless. The rules are being
:01:58. > :02:03.broken and broken brazenly. In the process, people coming to this
:02:03. > :02:13.country are being exploited and generally without any redress. Jim
:02:13. > :02:24.
:02:24. > :02:31.At the very end of the tuba line in North London is Edgeware, the
:02:31. > :02:36.centre of London's Romanian community. The official best guess
:02:36. > :02:42.is 75,000 Romanians have come to Britain since EU membership in 2007.
:02:42. > :02:46.The true figure is may be much higher. But while Romanians and
:02:46. > :02:54.Bulgarians have every right to live in the UK, they don't have an
:02:54. > :02:58.automatic right to work here. KNOCKING.
:02:58. > :03:02.Extra restrictions were placed on workers from both countries when
:03:02. > :03:06.they joined the EU. Those rules mean that as employees they have to
:03:06. > :03:15.stick to jobs that are highly skilled or in sectors where there
:03:15. > :03:22.is a shortage of labour. In many, low-paid service jobs, it is not
:03:22. > :03:27.difficult to hear a Romanian accent, a Bulgarian voice. How is that
:03:27. > :03:34.possible? Who are these workers living and working in the grey
:03:34. > :03:43.economy? Can you bring her downstairs? It's was 2007 and just
:03:43. > :03:49.a few weeks after Romania joined the EU, this lady took a coach to
:03:49. > :03:55.London. Like thousands of other migrants, she took a gamble so
:03:55. > :03:58.hotel cleaning was in obvious place to start. She has never had before
:03:58. > :04:02.right to work as an employee in this country, but there is a
:04:02. > :04:12.loophole in emigration law. It you are Romanian or Bulgarian, you are
:04:12. > :04:27.
:04:27. > :04:31.free to work anywhere in the UK as The suspicion is, workers like this
:04:31. > :04:38.are not really self- employed. Instead they are treated like
:04:38. > :04:41.employees, but often with less pay, fewer rights and no job protection.
:04:41. > :04:46.But, what is in it for the agencies? By using self employed
:04:46. > :04:50.labour, they might be able to avoid some these light National Insurance.
:04:50. > :04:53.They don't have to pay holiday or sickness benefits, there are no
:04:54. > :04:59.contracts, maternity pay and they can easily lay off staff with
:04:59. > :05:04.little comeback. So much so, or bogus and employment has been
:05:04. > :05:08.called the loophole of choice for many low-paid sectors. It is
:05:08. > :05:13.everybody, it is a process which does not help. For industry it
:05:13. > :05:17.creates an environment where there seems to be cowboys operating
:05:17. > :05:21.outside the law, which is something we are keen they do not do and we
:05:21. > :05:25.have put everything in place to stop them. The Government does not
:05:25. > :05:30.get the tax and National Insurance, the workers are exploited and the
:05:30. > :05:34.individual employer, their reputation is at risk. The latest
:05:34. > :05:38.figures show 94,000 people living in the UK are Romanian by birth.
:05:38. > :05:45.Higher than all the EU states like Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech
:05:45. > :05:49.Republic. Figures from the University of Oxford say 27,000 of
:05:49. > :05:58.those say they are self-employed. Those figures are based on survey
:05:58. > :06:01.data, but experts agree the real number is likely to be higher. So,
:06:01. > :06:06.we set off in the footsteps of many of those young Romanians to try and
:06:06. > :06:14.find a job in the UK. We teamed up with a young journalist on Romania
:06:15. > :06:20.and she does not want her name used in his report.
:06:20. > :06:24.Bank statements, and you can see an array of samples. The first step is
:06:24. > :06:30.to get a proof of address and bank account if you do not have one
:06:30. > :06:38.already. You can use these to take to the bank to open an account.
:06:38. > :06:43.This is where the internet comes in. It offers everything from fake
:06:43. > :06:48.people defied, to gas bills and tax returns. They are sold as a novelty
:06:48. > :06:52.items to get around the law, but he would pay �75 for novelty bank
:06:52. > :06:59.statement? We called a dozen recruitment agencies specialising
:06:59. > :07:04.in the hospitality sector. Mine wouldn't accept on the self-
:07:04. > :07:09.employed basis because it would break the law. But three said they
:07:09. > :07:13.would take on reporter on. Calibre International supplies cleaning
:07:13. > :07:17.staff to some of the best known five-star hotels in the capital.
:07:17. > :07:21.She is offered a job that evening cleaning at an upmarket, London
:07:22. > :07:31.restaurants. When she inquires about hotel where, she is told to
:07:32. > :07:48.
:07:48. > :07:54.lie about her experience. -- hotel If you days later, and Calibre
:07:54. > :07:59.sends us to a job interview in central London. There., St Ermin's
:07:59. > :08:04.Hotel reopened last year after a �30 million refit. A-night here
:08:04. > :08:08.over the Olympic Games cost around �300 for a standard double room.
:08:08. > :08:15.Olympic referees stayed here and it was used as a base for the tourism
:08:15. > :08:21.industry. Our reporter works two days for no pay training, before
:08:21. > :08:25.starting a proper ship. The working day starts at 8:00am, and it is a
:08:25. > :08:30.hard, physical job and cleaners are under pressure to clean rooms as
:08:30. > :08:34.fast as they can. Is this really self- employment? Chris Jeans is
:08:34. > :08:37.one of the most senior employment lawyers. We showed him footage from
:08:37. > :08:42.St Ermin's Hotel, although he cannot comment on any individual
:08:42. > :08:47.case, he says there are key factors which determines whether someone is
:08:47. > :08:54.honestly self- employed. If they are told to turn up and work
:08:54. > :08:59.between certain hours using materials provided by the workplace
:08:59. > :09:03.or somebody else, on the face of it they won't be self- employed.
:09:03. > :09:12.at the hotel, are self- employed report does not have much control
:09:12. > :09:18.over her own working day. Make sure you will be here in the office on
:09:18. > :09:23.time. I don't want to see no one outside. I don't want to see no one
:09:23. > :09:28.in the toilets at 8 am. She has to sign in and out just like the other
:09:28. > :09:32.employees. She has to use the equipment and cleaning materials
:09:32. > :09:38.she is given by the hotel. The quality of her work is quality
:09:38. > :09:44.control. No excuse for having brown stains on the bottom of cubs.
:09:44. > :09:54.is not allowed to take breaks when she wants. The break is at
:09:54. > :10:01.
:10:01. > :10:07.Any company that employs a Romanian or Bulgarian worker without the
:10:07. > :10:11.right permission can face criminal sanctions - a �5,000 fine or
:10:11. > :10:16.imprison side since. We have found out since 2007, any one successful
:10:16. > :10:20.prosecution has been brought by the Home Office in England and Wales.
:10:20. > :10:23.We have enough regulation and legislation. We are looking for
:10:23. > :10:27.Government agencies to enforce it, so we don't have this race to the
:10:27. > :10:32.bottom. It is about Government agencies and forcing the
:10:32. > :10:39.legislation that is already there. Two days on, our reporter leaves
:10:39. > :10:45.her job. A week later, her first payslips arrives. For two day's
:10:45. > :10:51.hard work, she receives just under �30. She should have been paid at
:10:51. > :10:55.least �90, self- employed or not, on the minimum wage rules. There is
:10:55. > :10:59.plenty of law to stop you doing it, what is necessary is enforcement.
:10:59. > :11:05.As in every other sector, you can have as many laws as you like, but
:11:05. > :11:15.if there is no one there to enforce it, it is ineffective. We went back
:11:15. > :11:24.
:11:24. > :11:29.to Calibre to ask why the pay was Most agencies pay their workers by
:11:29. > :11:32.the hour, but although Calibre claims to do this, both to its
:11:32. > :11:36.cleaners and to the programme, we than the agency are only paying for
:11:36. > :11:40.the rooms that were cleaned. It makes it difficult, if not
:11:40. > :11:50.impossible for many dealers, as they see those starting out with
:11:50. > :12:03.
:12:03. > :12:13.less experience to learn the Then, when we asked for a copy of
:12:13. > :12:35.
:12:35. > :12:39.our own paperwork, it is torn to We showed some of our findings to
:12:39. > :12:44.the tax authorities and the Government. They say they take the
:12:44. > :12:48.issues seriously and will now investigate. Odd job search is over,
:12:48. > :12:54.but serious questions remain about the way immigration and Labour
:12:54. > :12:57.rules are enforced, not just in the hotel sector but across the UK.
:12:57. > :13:00.In a statement Calibre said it provides details of its self-
:13:00. > :13:03.employed workers to the Home Office, which it says, has never raised any
:13:03. > :13:05.concerns. It maintains that those workers pay virtually the same
:13:05. > :13:08.amount of tax and national insurance as salaried staff. St
:13:08. > :13:11.Ermin's Hotel, which featured in that report, said it is no longer
:13:11. > :13:21.working with Calibre after it became aware recently of possible
:13:21. > :13:21.
:13:21. > :13:28.irregularities in some of its employment practices.
:13:28. > :13:33.We had the Labour MP on the all- party group on migration. Cristina
:13:33. > :13:40.Irmie edits an online newspaper for Romanians living in Britain, and
:13:40. > :13:45.Kevin Green is boss of the employments Federation which
:13:45. > :13:51.represents employment agencies. How widespread is this exploitation?
:13:51. > :13:55.is very widespread. It becomes more so because of the difficulties
:13:55. > :14:00.Romanians continue to face in coming to this country and getting
:14:00. > :14:07.a legal status. So none of this is news to you, however shocking to
:14:07. > :14:10.other people? It is just taking bigger precautions. Would you
:14:10. > :14:16.describe your industry as regulated? It is very regulated.
:14:16. > :14:24.But the regulations are not enforced? Absolutely. Despite the
:14:24. > :14:30.fact that three out of 12 agencies, 25% in that sample appeared to be
:14:30. > :14:35.doing exactly what we saw in the film? It is right in terms of the
:14:35. > :14:39.percentage of firms contacted. You are picking on a particular sector
:14:39. > :14:44.which does have a greater percentage. If you think about the
:14:44. > :14:50.industry, we represent executive search firms, interim manage firms,
:14:51. > :14:55.all the UK recruitment. And this sector is under huge pressure,
:14:55. > :15:00.driven by competition from the hotels to the recruitment
:15:00. > :15:04.businesses. Were you not surprised? I am not surprised. What is the
:15:04. > :15:11.consequence of this behaviour? Bogus self-employment is a growing
:15:11. > :15:16.scandal. You get hotels like St Ermin's Hotel charging �300 a night
:15:16. > :15:19.for a room, which don't want to employ directly, using rogue
:15:19. > :15:25.agencies and increasingly, gang masters who don't want to and ploy
:15:25. > :15:28.directly. They make the rouble work as an offer they cannot refuse,
:15:28. > :15:34.deliberately designed to denied their responsibilities and rights.
:15:34. > :15:40.What it does, it exploits the newly arrived, it undercuts the host
:15:40. > :15:46.nation, workers in the host nation, and it undercuts reputable agencies,
:15:46. > :15:51.the reputable agencies who undercut. What your P's has done is to expose
:15:51. > :16:00.the scandal. We need effective enforcement of the law. The
:16:00. > :16:04.Government is going in exactly the The reason we are in this position
:16:04. > :16:11.is because of regulations brought in by your party will you were in
:16:11. > :16:15.government. We brought in the gang masters Licensing Agency... But the
:16:15. > :16:18.scam of self-employment was a consequence of the cap put on
:16:18. > :16:23.migration of this country for people wanting to work from Romania
:16:23. > :16:29.and Bulgaria, which your government brought in. We could have done more
:16:30. > :16:33.but we did much. Including, equal treatment of agency workers and the
:16:33. > :16:38.directly employed. Now the government is cutting back on
:16:38. > :16:43.enforcement of the law. Everyone agrees that what is necessary is
:16:43. > :16:47.proper enforcement of the law. Christina, have the consequence of
:16:47. > :16:52.this law been to deter people from coming from Romania to Britain?
:16:52. > :17:00.at all. I would like to make a point on the fact that the
:17:00. > :17:04.Migration Advisory Committee was actually consulting the Romanian
:17:04. > :17:11.community in the previous years, and that exploitation and
:17:11. > :17:15.vulnerable workers were the causes that we pleaded on and we tried to
:17:15. > :17:19.demonstrate that you are not stopping people from coming here.
:17:19. > :17:24.It has no effect, it is not stopping people coming here, they
:17:24. > :17:28.are just being exploited when they get here. But you do understand the
:17:28. > :17:32.force of the argument that the first response of a government is
:17:32. > :17:37.to its own citizens and it had to take a step to protect them from
:17:37. > :17:42.being undercut in the workplace. do understand that but we keep on
:17:42. > :17:49.talking and having a debate about illegal migrants, but then we are
:17:49. > :17:53.actually talking about union, European Union citizens. But your
:17:53. > :17:58.compatriots, as much as the employees who may be British
:17:58. > :18:08.companies, whatever the nationality of the people they employ, they are
:18:08. > :18:09.
:18:09. > :18:12.bending the rules. Are they not doing that because...? If they do
:18:13. > :18:18.not have a legal right to be here, what are they doing here?
:18:18. > :18:27.cannot blame the victims for their eggs flotation -- exploitation. You
:18:27. > :18:30.get rogue companies that exploit... The first duty of the government is
:18:30. > :18:34.to ensure fair and equal treatment of all workers so that you don't
:18:34. > :18:40.have exploitation and undercutting and that is what we have got
:18:41. > :18:46.increasingly. The question is, why do we have the different rules for
:18:46. > :18:50.Bulgarians and Romanians? That is the key issue. A what is your
:18:50. > :18:56.argument? That anyone within the EU should be free to come and work
:18:56. > :19:00.here? We are the only ones that are not allowed to work here. The he is
:19:00. > :19:05.arguing that everybody should be treated the same. I think that
:19:05. > :19:10.would give us an open labour market, if we are going to have free
:19:10. > :19:14.movement of labour... It would help in this situation where you have
:19:14. > :19:19.rogue agencies been complicit with companies to manipulate the rules
:19:19. > :19:24.so they get cheap labour, and the rules were clearly defined,
:19:24. > :19:30.originally, to be helpful, but actually what they are doing is we
:19:30. > :19:33.have got victims, in terms of the exploited individuals, our sector
:19:33. > :19:38.that is undermined by a rogue agencies and the government sitting
:19:38. > :19:42.on its hands, and we need robust enforcement so we don't end up with
:19:42. > :19:48.exploitation of legitimate businesses. A fair treatment and
:19:48. > :19:53.fair competition. Are you in a position to commit the Labour Party
:19:53. > :19:57.to imposing no restrictions on any future accession of states to the
:19:57. > :20:03.European Union? Of course it is what we should manage migration...
:20:03. > :20:08.That is what Tony Blair said about Bulgaria... We need to focus on
:20:08. > :20:16.what Kevin has just said. Which is? Everybody should be treated the
:20:16. > :20:20.same? Absolutely. A pernicious business model that exploits the
:20:20. > :20:26.newly arrived and undercuts the host community, that is wrong.
:20:26. > :20:29.only because of conditions imposed by your government. No, it is
:20:29. > :20:36.because of rogue agencies and gang masters who say to newly arrived
:20:36. > :20:40.workers, if you want to work you have to be self-employed, like that
:20:40. > :20:45.woman then who tore up the contract and somebody asked for a document,
:20:45. > :20:50.she got up the contract and tore it up and said, you have to understand
:20:50. > :20:55.your status in this country. What kind of country is this, Jeremy,
:20:55. > :21:01.with behaviour like that? created this status, your party in
:21:01. > :21:06.government! We have... You except that, don't you? Bogus self-
:21:06. > :21:12.employment. It is a consequence of your policy on employment rights in
:21:12. > :21:16.this country for people from Bulgaria and Romania. It is a
:21:16. > :21:22.consequence of bad employees who want to take advantage... --
:21:22. > :21:26.employers. I understand she was saved there should be no
:21:26. > :21:32.discrimination, but you previously said the responsibility of the
:21:32. > :21:36.government first is towards its own citizens. What is your opinion?
:21:36. > :21:41.this particular case, as somebody who has been established here for a
:21:41. > :21:46.long time, and he has done business, if you want the rules not to be
:21:46. > :21:51.bent, then don't allow them to be bent. And you can actually control
:21:51. > :21:56.it. You know the sectors where vulnerable workers are. A you all
:21:56. > :22:06.agree essentially that the rules must be enforced. Absolutely. Fair
:22:06. > :22:09.
:22:09. > :22:14.treatment, fair competition, no place for the road -- the rogues.
:22:14. > :22:17.Either look at the rules and say, free access like for anybody else
:22:17. > :22:23.from the European Union, or you have to enforce these different
:22:23. > :22:33.rules because otherwise you get the individuals being exploited and the
:22:33. > :22:34.
:22:34. > :22:37.market be manipulated. Thank you very much. A budget for a crisis to
:22:38. > :22:40.help get us out of a crisis was the way the Spanish Deputy Prime
:22:40. > :22:45.Minister described her government's announcements today. What she meant
:22:45. > :22:48.was that there are all sorts of things you are not going to get. 40
:22:48. > :22:50.billion euros worth of cuts to spending in total. Howls of
:22:51. > :22:54.distress from Spanish citizens, while the European Commission duly
:22:54. > :22:57.barked its support. But what no-one knows yet, although it won't be
:22:57. > :23:04.long, is whether the hustlers who make and break currencies will be
:23:04. > :23:08.pacified. Joe Lynam is in Madrid. This time last night, there was a
:23:08. > :23:14.mass of young men and women are venting their anger before they
:23:14. > :23:18.were battened offer the streets by 400 police officers. Today, traffic
:23:18. > :23:23.is flowing freely and access to parliament is there. That is
:23:23. > :23:30.because Spaniards have a weary sense of acceptance and resignation
:23:30. > :23:40.about the Budget today, health and education to be cut by 15%, but I
:23:40. > :23:40.
:23:40. > :23:45.suspect the government is not enacting the kind of austerity that
:23:45. > :23:49.it will be required when, not if, they have to go as or more bail-
:23:49. > :23:54.outs to the European Union. Spaniards are seeing how this will
:23:54. > :23:58.affect their lives. Spain has been bracing itself, counting down to
:23:59. > :24:03.what they knew would be painful but unavoidable. The TV stations have
:24:03. > :24:07.been covering little else for weeks. There viewers would doubtless
:24:08. > :24:12.shocked at the intensity of the protests from Spanish streets ahead
:24:13. > :24:17.of the Budget, as thousands of frustrated and jobless had to be
:24:17. > :24:21.taken away from the vicinity of the parliament. The police are now
:24:21. > :24:25.clearing the square in front of the parliament and they are dispersing
:24:25. > :24:29.protesters that way, as it were, to make sure that the main
:24:29. > :24:34.thoroughfares in Madrid are clear for the traffic tomorrow morning.
:24:34. > :24:37.Today in the newsroom of a business channel, I wanted to get a sense of
:24:37. > :24:42.what the silent majority in Spain were making of the sweeping cuts
:24:42. > :24:46.that they knew were needed but have trouble swallowing. One of the
:24:46. > :24:52.things that Mediterranean people ask is our mood changes very
:24:52. > :24:56.quickly, and now we are really pessimistic. We had been so for
:24:56. > :25:03.four years but now the vision of not having light at the end of the
:25:03. > :25:07.tunnel, it is doing things even worse. Charged with the this
:25:07. > :25:11.miraculous turnaround is during centre-right government, which has
:25:11. > :25:16.had the shortest honeymoon in political history. We were
:25:16. > :25:22.expecting to have a deficit that was going to be about 7% of the
:25:22. > :25:29.economy, and it turned out to be 9% of the economy. In just one month
:25:29. > :25:34.we did not have that time to react, so in our political manifesto, the
:25:34. > :25:39.main aim was that we were going to give Spain what Spain was needing.
:25:39. > :25:45.And there were not every actual promises, but a general promise to
:25:45. > :25:50.try to manage the situation and improve it. The figures were worse
:25:50. > :25:56.but we are struggling very hard. But what with the opposition
:25:56. > :25:59.Socialists do different league? Under Jose's Zapatero, Spain had
:25:59. > :26:06.between 2004 and 2011, one of the biggest property bubbles in the
:26:06. > :26:11.world, followed by one of the biggest collapses. Very soon, we
:26:11. > :26:16.will present a comprehensive reform of the hawk of fiscal system in
:26:16. > :26:22.Spain. It has to be more progressive -- the whole fiscal
:26:22. > :26:28.system. In Spain, corporations only pay 11% from their benefits. At the
:26:28. > :26:32.same time there are a large number of citizens who do not pay taxes
:26:32. > :26:37.through income tax because they pay two societies, because they are
:26:37. > :26:42.what we call liberal professionals, such as people who put all their
:26:42. > :26:46.revenues inside a society and the escape paying taxes. There must be
:26:46. > :26:51.changes there and we need a more comprehensive system that is able
:26:51. > :26:57.to control more everybody. And when the budget was announced, it was
:26:57. > :27:02.depressingly predictable. This economy has already seen 65 billion
:27:02. > :27:06.euros sucked out of it this year. Today it was confirmed a further 90
:27:06. > :27:10.billion euros will be slashed in the coming two. Inside the Madrid
:27:10. > :27:15.stock exchange, the budget was almost ignored. Shares which had
:27:15. > :27:19.crashed yesterday were up a bit today. In many ways there are two
:27:19. > :27:24.economies in Spain. One represented by the corporate giants who
:27:24. > :27:28.continued to flourish around the world, and then there is the real
:27:28. > :27:32.economy outside. One where unemployment is depressingly high
:27:32. > :27:35.and consumer spending depressingly low, so the challenge facing the
:27:35. > :27:41.government is to somehow cut the deficit and at the same time bridge
:27:41. > :27:45.the gap between his corporate world and a real world outside. Most of
:27:45. > :27:51.the people realise that we need these cuts. In the last general
:27:51. > :27:56.election, Mariano Rajoy was elected with a vast majority say people
:27:56. > :28:01.knew what they were voting for, maybe not that but what we need as
:28:01. > :28:05.a country, but you know, people feel that, all right, we need to
:28:05. > :28:12.cut but just cut on the other side and not from my pocket, and this is
:28:12. > :28:16.a problem. Tonight there was a much more sedate group of people from
:28:16. > :28:21.Madrid on the streets. Ordinary Spaniards are doubtless at home
:28:21. > :28:26.mean for their living standards. Tomorrow they will hear how many
:28:26. > :28:32.billions their broken banks need to stay afloat, just in time for yet
:28:32. > :28:35.another mass demonstration on Saturday for of --.
:28:35. > :28:38.For the best part of a thousand years the principle of double
:28:38. > :28:42.jeopardy has meant that, except in pretty rare cases, you can't be
:28:42. > :28:44.tried twice for the same offence. Today, the captain of Chelsea
:28:44. > :28:48.football team, John Terry, discovered the limits of double
:28:48. > :28:53.jeopardy. He was found not guilty of racial abuse in a court case
:28:53. > :28:56.Yet today, the Football Association banned him from four matches and
:28:56. > :28:59.fined him a couple of hundred thousand pounds for the same
:28:59. > :29:09.offence. He has a right to appeal, although he has not yet said
:29:09. > :29:14.His John Terry a racist who has finally been made an example of? Or
:29:14. > :29:18.a man cleared in the eyes of the law only to be punished by an
:29:18. > :29:23.anonymous FA panel sitting behind closed doors? What is not in doubt
:29:23. > :29:28.is that the Chelsea captain did after abusive language, including
:29:28. > :29:32.the word "black" to Anton Ferdinand in a Premier League game almost a
:29:32. > :29:39.year ago, but Terry claimed he was merely repeating what he thought
:29:39. > :29:43.the QPR defender had said to him. And that defence was good enough
:29:43. > :29:49.for Westminster Magistrates' Court, where the play was found not guilty
:29:50. > :29:54.of racial abuse following a trial in July. Despite that, but FA went
:29:54. > :29:58.ahead with its own disciplinary hearing this week. On the eve of
:29:58. > :30:02.that, be on offer England captain announced his retirement from
:30:02. > :30:06.international football -- the on- off England captain. He said the
:30:06. > :30:10.procedure had left his position untenable. Some feel it has been
:30:10. > :30:15.dragged out for too long for. has not been good because of what
:30:15. > :30:20.it has been about and I don't think it has helped that it was extended.
:30:20. > :30:25.It would have been far better if it had been taken on board before the
:30:25. > :30:31.Euros. Ferdinand snubs Terry earlier this season. The etiquette
:30:31. > :30:36.of the handshake, offered, refused, has become a vital part of match
:30:36. > :30:44.day. Elsewhere, Patrice Evra is ignored by Luis Suarez after the FA
:30:44. > :30:47.found the Liverpool player guilty of racial abuse. Football Forums
:30:47. > :30:53.and phone-ins are wondering tonight why Terry will sit out four games
:30:53. > :31:00.and pay a fine of �220,000 when Suarez was banned for eight games
:31:00. > :31:04.and fined �40,000. The FA has yet to elaborate on the findings.
:31:04. > :31:08.seems in stark contrast to the way the Olympians behaved in the summer
:31:08. > :31:13.and I think the use of this kind of language, whatever the provocation,
:31:13. > :31:17.the way they played and behave towards each other and officials is
:31:17. > :31:21.wrong and must change. The but an England great who notoriously
:31:21. > :31:27.suffered abuse says the problem of racism goes beyond the football
:31:27. > :31:33.grounds. You cannot get rid of racism out of football as long as
:31:33. > :31:40.it exists in society, so it should be targeted in society. The FA can
:31:40. > :31:44.only do what it can come up for 90 minutes three times a week.
:31:44. > :31:49.penalties against John Terry are suspended for 14 days while he
:31:49. > :31:59.decides whether to appeal. He says he is waiting for the FA's written
:31:59. > :32:02.
:32:02. > :32:07.Pat Nevin played nearly 200 times the Chelsea. He joins us from
:32:07. > :32:10.Edinburgh. And we have a representative from the Football
:32:10. > :32:15.supporters' Federation. The language John Terry uses his
:32:15. > :32:18.offensive, but to warn you, the offensive words could come up in
:32:19. > :32:22.this discussion. In Edinburgh, what you make of the fact that somebody
:32:22. > :32:30.could be acquitted by a court of law and then found guilty by the
:32:30. > :32:33.FA? I was surprised they went that far. If you look at the rules in
:32:33. > :32:39.the Association of the FA, they say the rule of law should be taken
:32:40. > :32:44.into account. There is a part of me that does up Lord FA for taking
:32:44. > :32:49.this see recently. In football we have taken any suggestions of
:32:49. > :32:54.racism see Risley. I would argue football has been part of the
:32:54. > :33:01.changing in society and has had a positive effect. But I am
:33:01. > :33:05.uncomfortable, after working for myself the 32 years against racism,
:33:05. > :33:11.this leaves me feeling uncomfortable. As far as I
:33:11. > :33:15.understand, being found not guilty, but it is the use of the words and
:33:15. > :33:21.not the context that has been taken into account. We will come to the
:33:21. > :33:29.context soon, but what do you make of the fact there can be an
:33:29. > :33:32.acquittal of -- in a court of law and being found guilty by the FA.
:33:32. > :33:36.The FA are the custodians of English football and the charges
:33:36. > :33:42.brought against John Terry by them were in the context of breaking
:33:42. > :33:46.football rules. Were as the court case was about a public order
:33:46. > :33:52.offence, which he was acquitted of. He was charged with a public order
:33:52. > :33:56.offence, aggravated by race. There are two different standards. No
:33:56. > :34:00.criminal court case about the law, and then a breaking of paint will
:34:00. > :34:07.case, where the burden of proof is different, it is about the balance
:34:07. > :34:16.of propertied disease. They are both about racism? -- probabilities.
:34:16. > :34:21.He has, they are both about racism. What the FA appeared to do was
:34:21. > :34:27.discount the context in which the remarks, these offensive remarks
:34:27. > :34:31.were made? We don't know that, we have not seen the report from the
:34:31. > :34:38.panel. We cannot say why they came to the conclusion they did. In a
:34:38. > :34:43.previous case with Patrice Evra and Luis Suarez, there was a very
:34:43. > :34:46.detailed report which discussed why the balance of properties were as
:34:46. > :34:50.they were and why the case was found against Luis Suarez. Until we
:34:50. > :34:56.get the report, we cannot comment on why the FA panel made the
:34:56. > :35:01.decision and ruling it did. We will come to that case in a moment, what
:35:01. > :35:04.do you make of this distinction about context? I was stunned, it
:35:04. > :35:11.you ignore the context of any conversation it can change the
:35:11. > :35:15.meaning of it. It changes 180 degrees, the meaning of this. If
:35:15. > :35:22.you ignore the context, imagine a scenario where you go to the
:35:22. > :35:31.referee and say, him over there he called me a so and so. You get sent
:35:31. > :35:34.off and charged by the FA, because you're only report in the context.
:35:34. > :35:40.But we do have to wait for the written report to come out. But I
:35:40. > :35:45.would be surprised if it comes out with anything more than that.
:35:45. > :35:49.raises the question why the FA is so useless in all respects. I am
:35:49. > :35:54.sure you are too diplomatic to put it like that. You raise the
:35:54. > :36:02.question of Luis Suarez, who gets an eight-match ban for using the
:36:02. > :36:09.word Negro, and John Terry, used three very bad words and he gets a
:36:10. > :36:14.shorter ban. What is going on? of the problems with the FA, they
:36:14. > :36:19.are caught in the middle. You have Government's saying to the FA, get
:36:19. > :36:25.your house in order, racism is an issue we thought had been tackled
:36:25. > :36:30.and had gone. Clearly, it hasn't weather at grassroots level or in
:36:30. > :36:34.the national game. The F8 feel obliged to do something. The real
:36:34. > :36:38.problem and the typical to the FA have, where they need to go in the
:36:38. > :36:41.future is to be transparent about the rules of the game and how they
:36:41. > :36:46.apply in the context of racism. This thing about having a secret
:36:46. > :36:49.committee deciding one thing for one individual and another thing
:36:49. > :36:59.for another is where they fall foul. Do you understand what they're
:36:59. > :37:01.
:37:01. > :37:07.doing when they come to these two contradictory, variant judgments?
:37:07. > :37:12.The chairman of the PFA, did often disagree with the treatment of the
:37:12. > :37:16.players. But there have been time and again I have disagreed with the
:37:16. > :37:21.FA. They do get a lot of things absolutely right, but on this
:37:21. > :37:25.occasion I think they have been frightened. As soon as racism
:37:25. > :37:31.becomes the discussion it becomes delicate. They want is seen to have
:37:31. > :37:35.some effect and action. I understand that, but dinner left
:37:35. > :37:40.just as ball by the wayside. Fenebahce de not let. We may find
:37:40. > :37:45.out that John Derry did ask the question. It that is the case there
:37:45. > :37:51.is a stain on his character now. He may never get rid of it, and I
:37:51. > :37:54.don't like to see miscarriages of justice in any position. And as
:37:54. > :37:59.because it is racism raising its ugly head, I don't think it is an
:37:59. > :38:02.excuse. So, the most powerful man in Britain doesn't know that the
:38:02. > :38:06.word Magna is Latin for big or great. David Cameron's decision to
:38:06. > :38:09.appear on an American chat show didn't do him any favours. And in a
:38:09. > :38:12.trice he elbowed his own speech to the United Nations off the front
:38:12. > :38:22.pages and replaced it with proof that when it comes to expensive
:38:22. > :38:31.education, you don't necessarily get what you pay for.
:38:31. > :38:38.When was the Magna Carter sign? 1215 on an island in the Thames.
:38:38. > :38:44.The literal translation? You are testing me. It would be good if you
:38:44. > :38:47.knew this. Yes it would be. Once the "there but for the grace
:38:47. > :38:50.of God" guffaws had died down today we thought it might be interesting
:38:50. > :38:52.to hear what various politicians thought the average Prime Minister
:38:52. > :38:56.ought to know. But amazingly, despite their willingness to tell
:38:56. > :38:59.us what to think on any other subject under the sun, most didn't
:38:59. > :39:03.want to appear to discuss their own level of knowledge. Gosh, they have
:39:03. > :39:06.busy lives. Sarah Wollaston said: "Humiliation on national TV?
:39:06. > :39:09.Tempting but I'm dropping my daughter at uni".
:39:09. > :39:12.Dominic Raab, who has a black belt third dan in Karate claimed he had
:39:12. > :39:14.to go to ante-natal classes. Nicholas Soames was appalled at the
:39:14. > :39:18.Prime Minister's ignorance, but gloriously undertaking vital
:39:18. > :39:21.conservation work in the north of England. Even Michael Fabricant,
:39:21. > :39:24.owner of Parliament's top hairpiece, claimed to know who'd written Rule
:39:24. > :39:28.Britannia, but unfortunately had to be at a top-level function in
:39:28. > :39:35.Glossop. However, two people bold or foolish enough to face the
:39:35. > :39:37.challenge are here. Patrick Mercer, MP for Newark used to be a soldier
:39:38. > :39:47.and Ruth Dudley Edwards, is a historian and novelist, although
:39:48. > :39:51.
:39:51. > :39:56.not an MP Yet! Why do we expect our leaders to be knowledgeable?
:39:56. > :40:01.think we have got to have a basic level of knowledge of all different
:40:01. > :40:06.sorts of subjects. It is difficult when you get a new sports minister
:40:06. > :40:13.appointed, he or she is expected to be an expert in that particular
:40:13. > :40:18.field. This is different. What is your view? I actually thought when
:40:18. > :40:22.I heard about it, he was trying to play down being posh and was
:40:22. > :40:30.pretending not to know. I cannot understand why he wouldn't know
:40:30. > :40:35.that. He remembered the date. My Latin is terrible, but I don't care.
:40:35. > :40:41.I want him to understand history, I don't want him to remember dates. I
:40:41. > :40:45.say that as an historian who does not remember any dates. But to
:40:45. > :40:50.understand your country and history, not be able to answer stupid
:40:50. > :40:54.questions. So we expect our leaders understand the country. And a
:40:54. > :40:59.political leader has to understand political history which is why
:40:59. > :41:04.Magna Carter matters. I hope he understands Magna Carter, and I
:41:04. > :41:10.don't give a damn if he remembers dates. I don't think the detail
:41:10. > :41:13.matters, but the broad sets -- suite of alliances, the
:41:13. > :41:19.significance between donations and the great movements of history is
:41:19. > :41:29.important. You say it doesn't matter but it is all on the front
:41:29. > :41:35.pages? The art is the fault of the hacks. We are here because we are
:41:35. > :41:40.here. Now I am going to ask you some questions. It you think I am
:41:40. > :41:47.going to answer any University Challenge questions, I am not.
:41:47. > :41:54.Don't answer them, suit yourself. We will try. These are set by the
:41:54. > :41:58.questions editor on University Challenge. They are very relevant.
:41:58. > :42:02.From what age is it legally permissible for children to drink
:42:02. > :42:11.alcohol at home or at a friend's house with permission of a parent
:42:11. > :42:18.or legal clerk -- Guardian? For 14. Actually, it is five. This is in
:42:18. > :42:27.the citizenship test isn't it? It is full of this stuff. They are
:42:27. > :42:36.straight out of Tom's head. next one is, since April 30th, 2012,
:42:36. > :42:42.what is the price of a first-class stamp? 26p. 48. It is 60,
:42:42. > :42:46.apparently. I got sucked in. plebs would no, I am sure. What was
:42:46. > :42:54.the last group of people allowed to sit in the House of Commons, Roman
:42:54. > :43:02.Catholic, Jewish, Jedi Knights were atheists? Re M and Catholics.
:43:02. > :43:08.Atheists. Which of these languages is most similar to the Persian or
:43:08. > :43:13.Farr's the language? Arabic, Turkish, English, Azerbaijani,
:43:13. > :43:20.Hebrew? I am so glad I said I wouldn't answer the questions.
:43:20. > :43:25.me out on this one, you of the historian. This is done, you are
:43:25. > :43:29.having fun with us, it is the end of the programme. It does not
:43:29. > :43:33.matter if David Cameron did not know what Magna Carter actually
:43:33. > :43:38.meant. The important thing is he understands what it was, what it
:43:39. > :43:42.stood for and why it is important in our history. And why they get
:43:42. > :43:52.excited about it in Northern Ireland will stock for the benefit
:43:52. > :43:59.of the jury's view is, more curious than you are, the answer is English.
:43:59. > :44:02.Do you think the lesson of history that knowledgeable by ministers are
:44:03. > :44:09.more effective? A Prime Minister who does not have a knowledge of
:44:09. > :44:12.history is seriously disadvantaged. Why is that? The don't understand
:44:12. > :44:17.your country it you don't understand its history.
:44:17. > :44:21.shouldn't be Prime Minister it the don't have a feel for the
:44:21. > :44:27.traditions of the history of your country. I speak as an Irish person
:44:27. > :44:31.who lives here. I hope I understand my country, I hope I understand
:44:31. > :44:35.this country. Nobody should be Prime Minister without
:44:35. > :44:40.understanding the roots of the place. This is the point and was
:44:40. > :44:44.making. It you don't understand the broad sweep of relationships
:44:44. > :44:54.between countries, relationships between religions, the great events
:44:54. > :44:56.
:44:56. > :45:00.that have shaped countries, it is Can you understand why somebody
:45:00. > :45:04.puts themselves to be asked these sorts of silly questions on
:45:04. > :45:09.television? Have not really, because we had done that tonight!
:45:09. > :45:14.Because he is trying to sell his country in America. The questions
:45:14. > :45:24.were foolish, he was not a damned for for going on it. He possibly
:45:24. > :45:27.
:45:27. > :45:31.thought he would get sensible questions -- a dam to fool. I think
:45:31. > :45:35.he handled it reasonably sensibly and with humility. Sensible
:45:35. > :45:41.questions are about the nature of your country. Weekend leave it
:45:41. > :45:44.there. -- we cannot leave it there. That's all from Newsnight tonight.
:45:44. > :45:47.The actor Herbert Lom died today, five years short of 100. He was
:45:47. > :45:51.born in Prague in 1917, as Herbert Karel Angelo Kuchacevic ze
:45:51. > :45:57.Schluderpacheru. You can see why he changed his name when he came to
:45:58. > :46:03.Britain. Goodnight. I have never worked with you before. The major
:46:03. > :46:08.has and he says you have a master brain. He had better be right. You
:46:08. > :46:18.just worry about your plan because her part of it sounds like
:46:18. > :46:25.
:46:25. > :46:31.something dreamt up in a booby- Good evening. The weather has been
:46:31. > :46:35.a lot kinder to us during the day on Thursday. Although we have a
:46:35. > :46:41.weather front moving south on Friday, it does not look as though
:46:41. > :46:49.it will give us that much trouble. Although strong gale force winds
:46:49. > :46:54.blowing across Scotland. Showers in northern England and Scotland. It
:46:54. > :46:58.will turn cloudy in the south-east and East Anglia after a reasonable
:46:58. > :47:04.start. That will hopefully clear away from the South West to give us
:47:04. > :47:14.brighter skies in the afternoon. But it will be a day are scattered
:47:14. > :47:20.
:47:20. > :47:23.Gales are expected around the Highlands and they will continue
:47:23. > :47:29.through Friday night and into Saturday morning, but Saturday is
:47:29. > :47:34.looking like the best day of the weekend. Just a few showers, with a
:47:34. > :47:40.strong wind in the North East. A lot of fine sunny weather in the