:00:12. > :00:17.If you have tears, prepare to shed them now. Ed Miliband is flesh and
:00:17. > :00:22.blood, he's not the Invisible Man, he went to a school! Every young
:00:22. > :00:26.person should feel they can have a career, a future - like I had.
:00:26. > :00:30.the public learn to love a wonk? Shouldn't be a hard sell when
:00:30. > :00:33.tomorrow here in Manchester, Ed Miliband presents his vision to his
:00:33. > :00:39.party - the worry here is what happens when he presents that
:00:39. > :00:44.vision to the public. As the eminent Marxist historian
:00:44. > :00:49.Eric Hobsbawm dies, we chew over whether there's space left for
:00:49. > :00:53.intellectuals in public life. The UN warns the world's population is
:00:53. > :00:59.ageing at a remarkable pace. Should we be worries? Professor Heinz
:00:59. > :01:05.Wolff is. He's here, as is George Monbiot, the environmentalist. And
:01:05. > :01:11.50 years ago today, he needed the National Guard turned out to he
:01:11. > :01:15.could go to class. The first black student at Mississippi university
:01:15. > :01:25.reflects on the journey he made and still to be made. Nothing has
:01:25. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :01:34.changed yet. I went to war 50 years There must have been a time when
:01:34. > :01:38.young Benjamin Disraeli or young Tony Blair was a household name
:01:38. > :01:42.just in his own household, but in democratic politics, the only thing
:01:42. > :01:47.worse than being unpopular is being unknown. Ed Miliband, the Labour
:01:47. > :01:52.Leader, has decided it's time we got to know and to like him a bit.
:01:52. > :01:57.Tomorrow, he Prenns his pitch to the Labour Party, love me, love my
:01:57. > :01:59.inner geek and then the rest of us get a chance to admire, among other
:01:59. > :02:04.things, such remarkable achievements as having gone to the
:02:04. > :02:08.same school as most people. Our Political Editor, Allegra Stratton,
:02:08. > :02:12.can feel her pulse quickening, at the Labour Party Conference in
:02:12. > :02:16.Manchester. We have a new policy this evening that will be in the
:02:16. > :02:19.Miliband speech tomorrow which does always quicken my heart at a
:02:19. > :02:26.political journalist. It's interesting and combines one of his
:02:27. > :02:34.three themes, the plight of the generation, the divide preen
:02:34. > :02:37.predatory and capitalism. They want more apprentices. He'll talk about
:02:37. > :02:41.the forgotten 50% of young people who don't go to university but who
:02:41. > :02:45.do need to be helped to train up and get more skills. The reason
:02:45. > :02:49.it's interesting is that we do have a living standard problem, people
:02:49. > :02:52.are finding that they can't get as high wages as they had before. Many,
:02:52. > :02:56.many people on different sides of the political spectrum have decided
:02:56. > :03:00.that the way to help people to get the higher wages is through more
:03:00. > :03:05.training. It's one policy, but we don't quite know how holistic the
:03:05. > :03:15.vision will be and tomorrow we'll know whether there's more ideas or
:03:15. > :03:21.
:03:21. > :03:26.Blue skies thinking. Just saying the words produces a cringe now.
:03:26. > :03:31.What was once a nifty short hand for some meantal exertion by our
:03:31. > :03:36.elected politicians now sees much rolling of eyes -- mental.
:03:36. > :03:42.Today, in Manchester, lo and behold, a true blue sky and a man who likes
:03:42. > :03:47.nothing more than thinking aloud. hung around with Ed from around the
:03:47. > :03:50.age of 12 onwards. He was a very bright guy. How did Ed Miliband
:03:50. > :03:53.come to like thinking and talking so much? A party political
:03:53. > :03:58.broadcast released today is intended to explain just how. No
:03:58. > :04:02.matter that the Miliband brothers are fairly wealthy individuals, the
:04:02. > :04:07.film majors on how they both went to a comprehensive, forementions to
:04:07. > :04:13.be contrast candidate David Cameron's Eton. We follow Miliband
:04:13. > :04:17.as a Harvard teacher. That we are seeing this in cinematic glory
:04:17. > :04:20.indicates that Team Miliband have decided to embrace the inner geek.
:04:20. > :04:25.Professor Miliband wants to refashion the Labour Party in his
:04:25. > :04:30.own image. He kicked off conference with an appearance by political
:04:30. > :04:38.philosopher Michael Sandell. There are still today some things money
:04:38. > :04:44.can't buy. Well, one such thing is friendship. If you don't have as
:04:44. > :04:51.many friends as you would like, it might occur to you to try to buy
:04:51. > :04:57.some. But you would quickly realise that it wouldn't work. Why not? Why
:04:57. > :05:03.wouldn't it work? Somehow, the money that would buy the friend
:05:03. > :05:07.would disol the good you're seeking. -- dissolve the good you are
:05:07. > :05:11.seeking. The stoic philosophers used to gather underneath a porch
:05:11. > :05:15.like this one and hat for hours about ideas. That's what the Labour
:05:15. > :05:18.Party's been trying to do, ignore the pain and ignore the pleasure in
:05:18. > :05:22.equal measure and instead concentrate on my big ideas. That's
:05:22. > :05:25.what Ed Miliband is telling his party. The trouble is, for some,
:05:25. > :05:30.the time is coming for action. Redistribution. Does that mean
:05:30. > :05:34.giving people more money to begin with so you don't need to start
:05:34. > :05:40.redistributing it? Sort of? It's one of those phrases that gos in
:05:40. > :05:47.one of my ears and out the other, I'm afraid. You have to make things
:05:47. > :05:50.more concrete. Like what? Well, I'm on the left of the party so I think
:05:50. > :05:54.there is a lot more radical things have to be done. If you look at
:05:54. > :05:58.David Cameron, you won't like him I know already, but two years before
:05:58. > :06:03.an election, he was talking about free schools. We are not hearing
:06:03. > :06:06.concrete policies are we? If you look at it, I think we are. We've
:06:06. > :06:09.got a structure there and we are working on that, you know, getting
:06:09. > :06:12.our act together. You are working on it, getting your act together,
:06:12. > :06:17.rather than people know what you are about now? I think people are
:06:17. > :06:22.seeing the real us now, yes. We are getting back to grass roots and
:06:22. > :06:26.basics that.'s where we lost it. When you have a philosopher like
:06:26. > :06:30.Michael Sandel standing up, it must gall you. You know what's good
:06:30. > :06:35.behaviour and what's bad. You don't need to be told by an American
:06:35. > :06:39.philosopher, do you? Karl Marx said philosophers have only interpreted
:06:39. > :06:46.the world, the point is to change it. That would be what I would say
:06:46. > :06:50.about Michael Sandel. REPORTER: In terms of the electoral cycle, I'm
:06:50. > :06:56.interested in where you need to be? We need to give confidence to
:06:56. > :06:59.people that under Labour things would be better. We are getting
:06:59. > :07:02.money into the economy, construction and house building
:07:02. > :07:04.going, fairness at the top which we are not seeing from the present
:07:05. > :07:09.Government at the moment, getting the banking crisis sorted out and
:07:09. > :07:12.our banks restructured in the way they need to be. We are not going
:07:12. > :07:16.to have another financial crisis in the future. Labour's talking about
:07:16. > :07:26.what happens in the future and what they expect.
:07:26. > :07:30.The Shadow Chancellor today provided the warm-up. Here he is
:07:30. > :07:34.practising his grade I exam piece. But earlier, he'd been playing to a
:07:34. > :07:41.not quite packed hall. In his speech, he announced that
:07:41. > :07:45.Labour would spend money raised from the forthcoming sale of the 4G
:07:45. > :07:49.mobile phone spectrum on building 400,000 new homes to much applause.
:07:49. > :07:54.The Labour activists like a bit of action. The note struck by Balls at
:07:54. > :07:57.the start of the conference was much more philosophical, bordering
:07:57. > :08:02.on the fasive. Labour will not detail spending plans until after
:08:02. > :08:06.the next election. Labour is weak on the economy, many think this
:08:06. > :08:10.position cannot last. Even some of Ed Miliband's allies thu the time's
:08:10. > :08:14.come for few more specifics, an idea like pre-distribution is fine,
:08:14. > :08:17.not that complicated but probably belonged in the first year of his
:08:17. > :08:20.leadership when the public didn't pay much attention. Now the public
:08:20. > :08:25.is looking to him and they want a few more specifics.
:08:25. > :08:28.In his second conference speech as leader, Miliband will announce a
:08:28. > :08:31.policy designed to address his three central concerns, the
:08:31. > :08:37.squeezed middle, the next generation and the encouragement of
:08:37. > :08:40.productive capital and the penalising of predatory capital.
:08:41. > :08:44.Professor Miliband is doing some doing as well as some thinking but
:08:44. > :08:49.now we see more clearly that part of his pitch to the voters is that
:08:49. > :08:52.he's the thinking voters' Prime Minister.
:08:52. > :08:56.Douglas Alexander is the Shadow Foreign Secretary and joins us from
:08:56. > :09:00.the kfpbs now. Douglas Alexander, are we supposed
:09:00. > :09:03.to take your leader more seriously because he went to the same school
:09:03. > :09:07.as most of the population? -- conference. I think as he'll say
:09:07. > :09:10.tomorrow, the kind of school he went to helps him understand the
:09:10. > :09:13.concerns of people right across the country. Whether that's the
:09:13. > :09:17.pressure on living standards that we have seen over recent years,
:09:17. > :09:21.whether that's their anger about the state of the banks or whether
:09:21. > :09:25.that's their concerns that their kids might not have as good a life
:09:25. > :09:29.as they had. Tony Blair couldn't have done that because he went to a
:09:29. > :09:35.fee-paying school, that's the implication? It's not about what
:09:35. > :09:39.school you went to... You said it was Clement Atlee went to the east
:09:39. > :09:43.of London. Ed Miliband not only learned at his comprehensive school
:09:43. > :09:46.but has been spending time since listening directly to the concerns
:09:46. > :09:51.of voters, that's in contrast I would suggest to a Prime Minister
:09:51. > :09:54.who, by his decisions day in day out is showing he's just out of
:09:54. > :09:57.touch with the ordinary concerns of ordinary people. If what school you
:09:58. > :10:02.went to is not significant, why are you wasting four minutes of our
:10:02. > :10:05.time expecting us to watch a film about where he went to school?
:10:05. > :10:09.partly because if you want to be Prime Minister of the country,
:10:09. > :10:12.people have a right to know where you come from, what makes you
:10:12. > :10:14.believe what you believe and what's forged you as the politician you
:10:14. > :10:18.are. That's a reasonable question. We have been answering that
:10:18. > :10:22.question over the last couple of years but honestly, many people
:10:22. > :10:26.thought when we lost the election as badly as we did in 2010 that
:10:26. > :10:29.that might itself be an academic question. Over the last couple of
:10:29. > :10:31.years, partly because we have come together as a party, partly because
:10:31. > :10:35.of the terrible mess the Conservatives and liberals have
:10:35. > :10:38.made of the economy, people are now looking anew at the Labour Party
:10:38. > :10:43.and considering Ed Miliband is leading a party that could be back
:10:43. > :10:47.in power in three years' time. been leading for two years and
:10:47. > :10:51.nobody knows who he is? I don't think that's fair, Jeremy. He's
:10:51. > :10:54.been a leader who's brought us together when all past precedent
:10:54. > :10:58.was that the Labour Party tears itself apart when it goes into
:10:58. > :11:02.opposition. He's also the leader who last year made a speech about
:11:02. > :11:05.responsible capitalism that I think has set an agenda about the kind of
:11:05. > :11:08.change we need to see. I can't remember a single word that David
:11:08. > :11:13.Cameron said in his conference speech last year. People are still
:11:13. > :11:17.talking about what Ed Miliband said just a year ago.
:11:17. > :11:20.If people are so engaged with his ideas, why is it necessary to spend
:11:20. > :11:26.his main speech of the year tomorrow and this television
:11:26. > :11:28.broadcast telling us where he went to school? Well, I think you can
:11:29. > :11:32.overestimate, it's a single broadcast, one of a number that
:11:32. > :11:36.will be aired between now and when we expect a general election in
:11:36. > :11:39.three years. In terms of the speech tomorrow, it's a perfectly
:11:39. > :11:42.reasonable question to answer, what motivates him, where does he come
:11:42. > :11:46.from, what are his values and what does he offer the country. That
:11:46. > :11:50.will only be one part of the speech. I think if last year he focused on
:11:50. > :11:53.a vision for the economy, responsible capitalism, he'll set
:11:53. > :11:56.out a broader vision for the kind of UK he'd like to see when he
:11:56. > :12:00.speaks to the party and the country tomorrow. One of the differences we
:12:00. > :12:03.have learned with a coalition Government is the Conservative and
:12:03. > :12:07.Liberal leaders are on lienltotd prove to their own party that
:12:07. > :12:11.they're still Conservative and Liberal. The chance for Ed tomorrow
:12:11. > :12:14.is not just to speak to the party but to address the concerns of
:12:14. > :12:19.ordinary people, the squeeze on living standards, the rise in
:12:19. > :12:23.unemployment we have seen rerecently, the challenge that
:12:23. > :12:26.Britain has in paying its way after the financial crisis. That's the
:12:27. > :12:31.very stuff in the questions Ed will be answering tomorrow. Thus far we
:12:31. > :12:34.have had a lot of policy and very little sympathy. Is that the
:12:34. > :12:38.diagnosis? No. I think the right approach is both to talk about the
:12:38. > :12:42.kind of individual that Ed Miliband is, but at least as importantly
:12:42. > :12:46.talk about the kind of country that he wants to lead and that's why I
:12:46. > :12:49.expect he'll do it tomorrow. Here we are two years into his
:12:49. > :12:52.leadership. He's polling worse than David Cameron on who is going to
:12:52. > :12:56.make the better job of running the country? Well, listen, first of all,
:12:56. > :12:59.the poll that matters I think is probably three years off, but
:12:59. > :13:04.secondly, if we had this conversation two years ago and I
:13:04. > :13:06.suggested to you at that point that Labour would be ahead in the
:13:06. > :13:10.opinion polls, the party would be united, there would be a growing
:13:10. > :13:15.seasons of possibility about a Labour victory at the next election.
:13:15. > :13:17.You would probably have listened politely or being Jeremy maybe not,
:13:18. > :13:22.then the camera would have switched off and you would have suggested
:13:22. > :13:25.that I lie down in a darkened room. The fact is, we have come together
:13:25. > :13:29.as a party, the weakness of the Conservative Government has become
:13:29. > :13:32.apparent. Does that guarantee a Labour victory? Absolutely not. But
:13:32. > :13:36.it means that people who're not yet willing to give us their support,
:13:36. > :13:39.are willing to give us a hearing. That's what's different about the
:13:39. > :13:43.opportunity Ed Miliband has tomorrow. I'll let you go and have
:13:43. > :13:46.your lie down in a darkened room now. Thank you. Thanks very much.
:13:46. > :13:49.One of Ed Miliband's television character witnesses in this
:13:49. > :13:53.broadcast calls him Professor Miliband. This is not a title he's
:13:53. > :13:57.likely to use as he asks for our votes because the British don't
:13:57. > :14:01.seem to suffer intellectuals gladly. Some contrast to the genuine
:14:01. > :14:05.Professor, Eric Hobsbawm, the life long Marxist who's died of
:14:05. > :14:09.pneumonia at 95. His prescription force changing the world, it's safe
:14:09. > :14:19.to say, are in no danger of being adopted by the Labour Leader
:14:19. > :14:20.
:14:20. > :14:25.tomorrow. But he did make you think. Born weeks before revolution in
:14:25. > :14:28.Russia ushered in the world's first communist state, it was to be Eric
:14:29. > :14:33.Hobsbawm's support for communism that provided his critics with
:14:33. > :14:39.years of ammunition. When we met, exactly ten years ago, on the first
:14:40. > :14:44.Monday of October 2002, he was prepared to seed some ground.
:14:44. > :14:51.can't call myself a communist any more because the kind of party
:14:51. > :14:58.which I believed was necessary, which Lenin pioneered and which was
:14:58. > :15:04.for a period in the 20th century an incredibly formidable device for
:15:04. > :15:09.changing states and societies, has run out. This historic period for
:15:09. > :15:14.that is gone. Eric Hobsbawm's unusual journey led
:15:14. > :15:20.from Alexandria to Venice, then 1930s Berlin. Eric Hobsbawm the
:15:20. > :15:23.historian was a product, not of the rise of Nazism, but of the move
:15:23. > :15:28.that followed. It was coming to England, where history was an
:15:28. > :15:33.important part of the teaching. Health service in an English
:15:33. > :15:41.secondary school and English university that I became historian.
:15:41. > :15:45.It was Hobsbawm age of series, a history of capitalism from 1789 to
:15:45. > :15:49.1991 that brought him his greatest literary renowned. Tony Blair
:15:49. > :15:53.sought his advice on how to revive Labour.
:15:53. > :15:56.We last met this past January as the current political leaders
:15:56. > :16:01.agonised over responsible capitalism.
:16:01. > :16:08.As an economic system, capitalism has nothing to do with
:16:08. > :16:15.responsibility. It has to do with growth, with making profit. Over
:16:15. > :16:23.the last 40 years, it seems to me, capitalism developed a sort of
:16:23. > :16:29.pathological degeneration of the line in which you believe that
:16:29. > :16:37.responsibility had absolutely nothing to do with it.
:16:37. > :16:42.The philosopher George Monbiot is here with the former Downing Street
:16:42. > :16:45.commune cases chief Alastair Campbell at Manchester. Mary first,
:16:45. > :16:49.this question of intellectuals public life politics, Hobsbawm
:16:49. > :16:54.belonged to something that was different, didn't he?
:16:54. > :17:01.I think he was part of a generation that came out of central Europe,
:17:01. > :17:04.very like Ed Miliband's father Actually very much like my father
:17:04. > :17:09.too, who lived through the 20th century and who thought of the
:17:09. > :17:13.world in big terms and were preoccupied with the world and with
:17:13. > :17:17.interpreting the world, and preoccupyed with coming up with
:17:17. > :17:21.visions of change but who didn't want to become politicians. We are
:17:21. > :17:25.suspicious, aren't we, of intellectuals in politics?
:17:25. > :17:30.Sometimes with good reason. Eric Hobsbawm had some good ideas and
:17:30. > :17:34.some pretty bad ideas. I think some of the British suspicion of British
:17:34. > :17:38.intellectuals has come from a sense that if intellectuals have too much
:17:38. > :17:41.power and responsibility, they'll be naive that there's a pragmatism
:17:41. > :17:48.necessary in public life that intellectuals lack. Alastair
:17:48. > :17:52.Campbell, in the communications business, a lot of very well
:17:52. > :17:57.educated and very clever politicians go out of their way to
:17:57. > :18:01.cultivate the ordinary bloke image, don't they? Why do they do that?
:18:01. > :18:05.don't think they do. I think that there's definitely a fact, I think
:18:06. > :18:09.in Britain were probably less respectful than intellectuals than
:18:09. > :18:12.in say France or parts of the education establishment in the
:18:12. > :18:17.United States. Don't forget, we are probably the only country where
:18:17. > :18:21.people I think ludicrously, to be too clever by half is a major
:18:21. > :18:24.criticism. In politics - I mean partly this is about the
:18:24. > :18:27.development of the media age and the fact that politicians do have
:18:28. > :18:32.to be able to communicate - I think that sometimes the politicians
:18:32. > :18:35.who're thought to be very intellectual. I could think of
:18:35. > :18:39.David Willets or Oliver Letwin of the modern Conservative Party that
:18:40. > :18:44.they are perhaps seen as having two brains in the case of Mr Willets,
:18:44. > :18:47.being very good thinkers but not having the political skills
:18:47. > :18:51.necessarily that you need the modern age. I suspect we are
:18:51. > :18:55.discussing this in part because people rightly think Ed Miliband
:18:55. > :18:58.has a pret digood intellect but we are still at that stage where
:18:58. > :19:03.people are trying to work out whether he was do the modern
:19:03. > :19:08.political stuff as well -- pretty good intellect. Politicians do have
:19:08. > :19:14.to be themselves if they are going to be successful because of the
:19:14. > :19:19.scrutiny. Two brains Willets - it's not a term of approbation, but a
:19:19. > :19:24.term of anxiety isn't it, too clever by half? They do worry but
:19:24. > :19:31.on the other hand what I think is that what counts as pragmatism is
:19:31. > :19:35.very often the idea of, as Cains put it of a deif you thinkle theory
:19:35. > :19:39.person. We get stuck in thinking of ways of the world which are
:19:39. > :19:44.pragmatic and we think that anything that comes outside that
:19:44. > :19:47.way, anybody who has a different concept of the world is out of
:19:47. > :19:53.touch and naive. There are moments in history, and this is one of them,
:19:53. > :19:59.where when we need as many ideas as possible. There's a wonderful piece
:19:59. > :20:04.by Count, which is a secret article to a perpetual piece and he says
:20:04. > :20:08.the condition for it is that Kings can shout philosophers but they
:20:08. > :20:12.should not be philosophers because being in power makes you unable to
:20:13. > :20:20.use your reason and philosophers should not be Kings, but they need
:20:20. > :20:23.that sort of critical respwerpretraition of the world.
:20:23. > :20:27.reinterpretation of the world. How much do you think it's to do with
:20:27. > :20:31.the common law theory that we don't have a written constitution? A lot
:20:31. > :20:35.of it comes down to the French revolution. The British looked on
:20:35. > :20:40.appalled at the nation killing its King and Queen and took pride in
:20:40. > :20:46.the fact that they didn't go in for such antics and blamed the French
:20:46. > :20:51.thinkers, the think, who led to this extremism. That's where the
:20:51. > :20:56.British love of simply it is, home- spun philosophy, pragmatism was
:20:56. > :20:59.born. Alastair's saying and Mary's saying, the British do think as
:21:00. > :21:03.much as any other people. We have got our intellectuals but they are
:21:03. > :21:08.not labelled as that. We have as many thinkers as any other nation
:21:08. > :21:11.but we don't tend to put them in cafes and we don't lionise them but
:21:11. > :21:17.of course they're out there. are nodding, Alastair Campbell, do
:21:17. > :21:20.you spend a lot of time hiding them? No, I agree with that because
:21:20. > :21:25.I think they are out there and quite a lot of them are in politics.
:21:25. > :21:29.I think that in France, it's deemed to be a very, very good thing to be
:21:29. > :21:33.nothing more than an intellectual and to say that you are an
:21:33. > :21:37.intellectual, your job have to be an intellectual, you think on
:21:37. > :21:40.behalf of others. Some of the big thinkers have been politicians in
:21:40. > :21:43.our history. If you read the works of Winston Churchill, even the
:21:43. > :21:46.stuff that is about his own political life, there's a man I
:21:47. > :21:50.think with a huge intellect who did wrestle with ideas. Modern
:21:50. > :21:53.politicians have to wrestle with ideas because of the velocity of
:21:53. > :21:58.change and the pressures surrounding them at the moment. In
:21:58. > :22:02.a way, they have to wrap them up in language that can be communicated
:22:03. > :22:08.down the barrel of a camera. I always say a good strategy, you
:22:08. > :22:12.need to be able to put it in a word, phrase, sentence, a page and a book,
:22:12. > :22:14.and the book is in a way the most important part of it but you still
:22:14. > :22:19.have to be able to explain that very, very simply to the person
:22:19. > :22:23.who's only going to listen to you for half a minute. Can you imagine,
:22:23. > :22:30.I mean that broadcast that the Labour Party are putting out, Ed
:22:30. > :22:33.Miliband's life, there is a person in that who talks about Ed Miliband
:22:33. > :22:37.during his time at Harvard as Professor Harvard. Can you imagine
:22:37. > :22:41.someone campaigning to be Prime Minister as a Professor? Yes, I can,
:22:41. > :22:45.I can. I heard your interview with Douglas
:22:45. > :22:49.Alexander there and let's be honest, part of the challenge Ed has at the
:22:49. > :22:53.moment is to get across the UK who he is. His background is an
:22:53. > :22:58.important part of that. Therefore where you go to school is a
:22:58. > :23:03.relevant part. Story of somebody whose life as his career develops
:23:03. > :23:08.will be analysed microscopically. We have to push back better than we
:23:08. > :23:12.do on this too clever by half thing. Tony Blair famously education,
:23:12. > :23:18.education, education. We all still believe that education is one of
:23:18. > :23:20.the keys to making Britain more prosperous and we should value
:23:20. > :23:25.intellectual thought more, including in the political process.
:23:25. > :23:29.Some of the commentary today about the intellectuals who spoke at the
:23:29. > :23:33.conference yesterday who had a lot of the audience spell bound but a
:23:33. > :23:35.lot of it was sneerry. We'd have a better political debate if we
:23:35. > :23:38.valued the contribution of intellectuals who present
:23:38. > :23:42.themselves as such as throw new ideas out there that we can chew
:23:42. > :23:48.over and fight and argue over, many of which will get into the
:23:48. > :23:52.political system. Mary Kaldor? think it's true that good
:23:52. > :24:00.politicians are also thinkers. Winston church sill a good example
:24:00. > :24:05.and maybe Ed Miliband will be a good example too -- Churchill is a
:24:05. > :24:10.good example. You need those who act according to their consciences.
:24:10. > :24:16.Society needs that. The fall of communism was a brilliant example.
:24:16. > :24:20.There were so many thinkers who didn't become thinkers when
:24:20. > :24:26.President. George Conrad came up with new ideas which really did
:24:26. > :24:29.change the way things were thought about in Eastern Europe and made
:24:29. > :24:34.possible the peaceful revolutions. Of course, there's a difference
:24:34. > :24:37.between idealogy and ideas and that's what you are talking about
:24:37. > :24:40.with the French or Russian revolution. You put your finger on
:24:40. > :24:44.it by saying it's independent thinkers. It's hard to read a
:24:44. > :24:48.political party and at the same time wear the clothes of an
:24:48. > :24:54.intellectual. That's the problem Ed Miliband's got. How can he pretend
:24:54. > :24:59.to be be an independent Professor and at the same time the Head of A
:24:59. > :25:03.major political party. It doesn't tend to sit well? I tend to agree
:25:03. > :25:07.but he can be keen on ideas and keen on fostering an intellectual
:25:07. > :25:11.debate. Thank you all very much indeed. An keen on ideas which you
:25:11. > :25:14.can get from other parts of the world, that's the other point. The
:25:14. > :25:17.economy's globalised and so is politics and some of the best ideas
:25:17. > :25:21.in Britain will probably come from other parts of the world and that's
:25:21. > :25:24.a very good thing too. Thank you very much. Old people - they are
:25:24. > :25:29.everywhere. You must have noticed. This is not a uniquely British
:25:29. > :25:33.problem if at all. The UN says the number of old people in the world
:25:34. > :25:37.is growing faster than any other section of the population. Absurdly,
:25:37. > :25:42.they define the old as those over 60. There will be over a billion
:25:42. > :25:46.within a decade. Watch out. Joe Lynam reports.
:25:46. > :25:50.In a rapidly developing world, the once yawning gap between the
:25:50. > :25:55.developed and developing world is closing. Where the old challengers
:25:55. > :25:58.were to simply survive childhood, the new 21st century is to how to
:25:58. > :26:02.manage old age. The UN population fund and help age international
:26:02. > :26:05.welcomes the fact that people are living longer but said that
:26:05. > :26:10.developing countries had to urgently think up new approaches to
:26:10. > :26:14.health care, retirement and intergenerational relations.
:26:14. > :26:20.According to a report, rapidly changing demographics make the case
:26:20. > :26:25.forurgent action. A decade from now, there will be one billion over 60s,
:26:25. > :26:29.and by 2050, that figure will have reached two billion, when for the
:26:29. > :26:33.first time, there'll be more people under 60 than under 156789 older
:26:33. > :26:39.people, as defined by the UN rrbgs the fastest growing age group of
:26:39. > :26:44.all -- the UN, are the fastest growing group at all. Longevity is
:26:44. > :26:47.an economic problem in many wealthy countries. Young people are brought
:26:47. > :26:52.up knowing it's their role to provide for older family members.
:26:52. > :26:56.Because that's not the case in developed country, the state tends
:26:56. > :26:59.to have a bigger role in taking care of the old. This UN report
:26:59. > :27:03.says less well off countrys are sleep walking into a problem
:27:03. > :27:09.because as they get richer, they are not making sufficient provision
:27:09. > :27:15.for older people in the future. Therefore a few things that we can
:27:15. > :27:22.do to minimise that problem, not to solve it, but to minute news. One
:27:22. > :27:30.of them is to raise the retirement age which in Brazil is very low.
:27:30. > :27:35.Many people in private and public sector retire very early. We can
:27:35. > :27:38.definitely, through public policy, minimise part of the fact of
:27:38. > :27:42.population ageing. Half of those country where is
:27:42. > :27:46.there are at least ten million over 60-year-olds are in developing
:27:46. > :27:50.economies. In China, the world's most rapidly growing large economy,
:27:50. > :27:54.the one child policy makes the problem of longevity even more
:27:54. > :28:01.acute and means the country will be old before it's rich. China's
:28:01. > :28:05.fertility rate stands at 1.6 births per woman, far below the 2.1 needed
:28:05. > :28:08.to sustain a growing population. The report makes recommendations -
:28:08. > :28:13.older people shouldn't be force totd retire by a certain age if
:28:13. > :28:16.they wish to work longer. Britain ended that practice this year.
:28:16. > :28:19.National health care plans should automatically include special
:28:19. > :28:22.provision for the needs of older people. Young people should be
:28:22. > :28:27.educated in such a way to make them less economically dependent when
:28:27. > :28:32.they get older, and the UN also suggests that older people's rights
:28:32. > :28:35.should be enshrined in law to protect them from discrimination.
:28:35. > :28:39.South Africa is developing rapidly and has a young population coming
:28:39. > :28:42.through the afternoons. It's also been dealing with the effect of HIV
:28:42. > :28:48.AIDS which has devastated many parts of the country. That has
:28:48. > :28:53.thrown up further problems and even a grim advantage.
:28:53. > :29:03.We've called it the demographic dividend that we are reaping at the
:29:03. > :29:04.
:29:04. > :29:11.moment. In the sense that the - there was quite a dramatic decrease
:29:11. > :29:18.in life expectancy, as a direct consequence of HIV AIDS, and
:29:18. > :29:26.subsequently with the roll out of retrovirals on a widespread basis,
:29:26. > :29:30.we have seen a substantial recovery in life expectancy generally.
:29:30. > :29:33.Global prosperity means we are having fewer children and they are
:29:33. > :29:37.living longer. Soon there'll be more dependents than people
:29:37. > :29:41.actually working. The message from the UN for all of us is, ignore our
:29:41. > :29:47.population growth today and you will be storing up economic
:29:47. > :29:50.problems tomorrow. Professor Heinz Wolff is with us,
:29:50. > :29:54.he believes that people should volunteer as carers in exchange for
:29:54. > :29:58.care when they get old. The writer and environmentalist George Monbiot
:29:58. > :30:08.is here and we are joined from Harvard university by Professor of
:30:08. > :30:09.
:30:09. > :30:13.International Development, Calestous Juma. Why is old age bad
:30:13. > :30:16.for society? It's bad simply because you need younger people to
:30:16. > :30:21.supply the money and the care, the labour that the older people are
:30:21. > :30:26.going to need. I mean, if people are retiring, they continue to
:30:26. > :30:29.retire long before they die, then you have this great demographic
:30:29. > :30:34.burden at the top of society which someone is going to have to service.
:30:34. > :30:38.If the population of young people is declining, as it probably will,
:30:38. > :30:42.as countries go through democratic transition, that will become harder.
:30:42. > :30:46.Do you have a solution? We are going to just have to face this
:30:46. > :30:51.pain. Some people talk about we need to keep the population growing,
:30:51. > :30:55.like the old lady who swallowed a fly, we swallow a spider, a bird, a
:30:55. > :31:00.cat, then make the problem bigger in order to solve the problem in
:31:01. > :31:03.2030 or 2050. We desperately need to start planning for that
:31:03. > :31:08.demographic downturn and accept that it will happen. What is this
:31:08. > :31:11.idea of yours, Heinz Wolff? It's not an idea, it's actually
:31:11. > :31:16.happening. The young foundation, myself and my university, have
:31:16. > :31:19.start add scheme called Care For Care, people like you or him or
:31:19. > :31:24.anybody who has any facility to give care to somebody else, will do
:31:24. > :31:28.so for three, four, five hours a week, and in exchange, they'll get
:31:28. > :31:34.a care credit on their bank account, measured in hows, which is then
:31:34. > :31:39.used to give them the care when they actually need it in their 7s
:31:39. > :31:44.and 80s. This is working. We are a pilot in the Isle of Wight. By 2015,
:31:44. > :31:54.and I'm really bragging now, I hope to have one million people doing
:31:54. > :31:58.this. And who administers this? Care for Care will be an
:31:58. > :32:01.organisation, care in the community company, there's very little money
:32:01. > :32:06.involved because it's run by an alternative currency. If a 40-year-
:32:06. > :32:10.old man or woman does the requisite amount of time to be entitled to
:32:10. > :32:17.several weeks or months perhaps when they need need it, who makes
:32:17. > :32:24.sure they get it? Well, this is the most commonly asked question.
:32:24. > :32:28.answer it? It's the next generation. It's only possible... So the next
:32:28. > :32:33.generation If the then generation is as keen to make provision for
:32:33. > :32:37.their old age. If they don't want to? Of course they do. What do they
:32:37. > :32:40.do, die in the streets, don't get their bottoms wiped. Professor
:32:40. > :32:43.Calestous Juma in Harvard, you have been listening very patiently.
:32:43. > :32:48.There are some suggestions that the real growth here is in the
:32:48. > :32:55.developing world. These problems in the developed world, we are
:32:55. > :33:01.slightly familiar with them, aren't we? Yes, in fact we have evidence
:33:01. > :33:05.of that already in the developed countries and we have some very
:33:05. > :33:10.interesting responses to that challenge. If you take two
:33:10. > :33:13.countries, Japan and Denmark, they've already responded to that
:33:13. > :33:17.challenge but technological innovations that involve
:33:17. > :33:23.recruitment of technology such as robotics to help home care and
:33:23. > :33:26.secondly, the decentralisation where homes are becoming hospitals.
:33:26. > :33:30.Nice to the proposals that have been put on the table, we need to
:33:30. > :33:34.lack at what countries are already doing today because this will have
:33:34. > :33:39.implications for what can be done in the future. But you don't think
:33:39. > :33:44.you could have robots caring for the elderly in the developing world,
:33:44. > :33:53.do you? I think some of that is already
:33:53. > :33:59.happening with recruitment of things to industrialised nations.
:33:59. > :34:04.As the population expands and ages, we are going to see greater demand
:34:04. > :34:07.for medical care in other countries that will make it more difficult to
:34:07. > :34:12.have that live skill migration of experts.
:34:12. > :34:15.You were referring to this question of migration a moment ago? Well, I
:34:15. > :34:20.think that migration has got to be part of the answer. There are
:34:20. > :34:24.countries which are going through the demographic transition long
:34:24. > :34:29.after certain countries like our own start to age and bringing in
:34:29. > :34:33.younger carers has just got to be part of the solution. It's hard to
:34:33. > :34:38.see how we'll cope without it. They'll get old themselves and need
:34:38. > :34:42.carers? Sure. We are facing a bulge. It lacks as if populations are
:34:42. > :34:46.heading for about nine or ten billion. They then plateau then
:34:46. > :34:52.decline. During that period of plateauing and declining, before
:34:52. > :34:55.they reach a stable lower level, we are going to see all sorts of
:34:56. > :35:00.dislocations and disruptions. It will be very difficult to manage.
:35:00. > :35:04.There isn't a single solution which is going to sort it. We've heard
:35:04. > :35:07.two reasonable approaches here, but neither the technology, nor the
:35:07. > :35:11.caring credits by themselves are going to sort this out. There's
:35:11. > :35:15.going to have to be a whole raft of measures. It will be a very
:35:15. > :35:22.difficult time. Can you imagine a global agreement on this matter,
:35:22. > :35:31.Heinz? No. And there are problems anyway of mixing different ethnic
:35:31. > :35:35.origins. An old lady who is 83 in this country isn't going to be care
:35:35. > :35:40.ford by an 18-year-old Polish student. It simply doesn't fit.
:35:40. > :35:45.I've done the sums. It's already happening, surely? No, it's
:35:45. > :35:50.happening by and large that elderly people care for old people and the
:35:50. > :35:54.word medical which we heard from Harvard just now, it isn't just
:35:54. > :35:58.medical, it's lonelines. The most corrosive thing that hits single
:35:58. > :36:06.people living by themselvess is they're lonely and quite often this
:36:06. > :36:13.is the basis of whatever diseases they've fallen into later on.
:36:13. > :36:18.shouldn't a Polish student be as much a companion to an elderly
:36:18. > :36:26.person? It doesn't fit. This has to be a certain amount of empathy
:36:26. > :36:31.between the people. We have to accept that similarly, as we have
:36:31. > :36:38.an effort to bring up children, we have to put effort in towards the
:36:38. > :36:43.end of our lives to look after old people. I spent 60 years designing
:36:43. > :36:47.gadgets of one kind of another, not necessarily for old people, and I
:36:47. > :36:52.calm to the conclusion four years ago that this is the only tool we
:36:52. > :36:55.need. Hands? Hands. And that anything which increases the number
:36:55. > :37:00.of people who're prepared to make some effort in care, and it only
:37:00. > :37:04.takes four or five hours a week per person, if 10% of the population
:37:04. > :37:10.did it, then we have a real solution which would give us partly
:37:10. > :37:15.over the bump -- get us partly over the bump. Do you get any sense,
:37:15. > :37:18.Calestous Juma, we see some signs of it here in Europe, of an
:37:18. > :37:21.increasing resentment of old people because it's not their fault
:37:21. > :37:25.they've lived a long time and they want to stay alive and medicine's
:37:25. > :37:32.got much better, but there is an increasing resentment. Do you see
:37:32. > :37:35.it elsewhere in the world? I don't see it as a source of
:37:35. > :37:40.friction at all, particularly in the developing countries where the
:37:40. > :37:47.age structure is different. I think the real concern...
:37:47. > :37:52.Oh, dear. That was... Can I pick this up? Off into the dark night of
:37:52. > :37:56.the mid Atlantic I think. Do you want to say something quickly?
:37:56. > :38:01.genuinely fear that by the time I'm an old crock, I will be hated by
:38:01. > :38:03.the younger generation because there will be a heck of a lot of us,
:38:03. > :38:08.perceived as a huge economic burden which will be hard to sustain and
:38:08. > :38:12.they'll be saying, you had a great time, you screwed up the planet's
:38:12. > :38:16.resources, consumed far more than was sustainable and now you are
:38:16. > :38:21.asking us to look after you. It will be politically challenging as
:38:21. > :38:26.well as economyly. I don't think you are right. The problem will be
:38:26. > :38:31.that some people make provision for their old age by the way I've been
:38:31. > :38:35.explaining and possibly by other ways, and other people will be
:38:35. > :38:40.feckless, a lovely word, some will be feckless.
:38:40. > :38:45.Thank you both very much. It's October 1st. 50 years ago today, a
:38:45. > :38:52.young man enrolled at the University of Mississippi known as
:38:52. > :38:56.Ole Miss. James Meredith was black- and-white people were outraged. He
:38:56. > :39:01.could only attend class under guard. There is a black President running
:39:01. > :39:06.for re-election next month. In an interview with Sol before River,
:39:06. > :39:15.James Meredith has been talking about those days and the journey
:39:15. > :39:19.his country is still making -- Sol B River.
:39:19. > :39:26.NEWSREEL: James Meredith wins his fight in Mississippi and becomes
:39:26. > :39:31.the first negro known to register many the state university...
:39:31. > :39:35.I was per peptive enough to know, particularly the first time I came
:39:35. > :39:42.home to visit my mother, when I joined the United States military,
:39:42. > :39:46.when I got to the Mississippi River on the Greyhound bus, the bus
:39:46. > :39:52.driver stopped the bus, drew a black curtain in the back of the
:39:52. > :39:57.but and made all blacks get be hind the back what curtain. It didn't
:39:57. > :40:07.take a genius to figure out that I wasn't enjoying all my rights and
:40:07. > :40:07.
:40:07. > :40:12.privileges. I came back to Mississippi in 1960. I came back to
:40:12. > :40:17.launch a war against white supremacy with the intent of
:40:17. > :40:21.destroying it. On gaining admission to the university, you had to have
:40:21. > :40:31.constant protection and you had to deal with a great deal of isolation
:40:31. > :40:33.
:40:33. > :40:40.and how did that feel? I spent four terms at the university. I never
:40:40. > :40:48.saw one person this -- one person there, period. Your father's house
:40:48. > :40:55.was attacked twice during your time at Ole Miss and the house was shot
:40:55. > :41:03.at, win toes shot through? I lived in my daddy's house 17 years. Never
:41:03. > :41:08.once did he go to bed without a loaded shotgun over his head. He
:41:08. > :41:15.used to tell me all the time, everybody knew he carried a pistol.
:41:15. > :41:20.What people didn't know, he always carried two.
:41:20. > :41:25.There was an occasion where you'd be eating in the cafeteria and
:41:25. > :41:29.there would be a bomb threat and the cafeteria would have to be
:41:29. > :41:34.evacuated and of course it was a false alarm. This thing continued.
:41:34. > :41:42.What other kind of threats were made that disrunned your day to day
:41:42. > :41:46.life at the university -- disrupted. Once I put the President of the
:41:46. > :41:55.United States in a position where he had to use the military might of
:41:55. > :42:04.the United States of America to protect my rights as a citizen.
:42:04. > :42:08.Why were so many troops required in order to come to your aid? If they
:42:08. > :42:18.had have had to call the whole two million, it would have been
:42:18. > :42:19.
:42:19. > :42:29.justified. Not just for me, for any citizen.
:42:29. > :42:38.America is about citizenship and I was born a citizen. Every right and
:42:38. > :42:43.privilege there was automatically belonged to me and the idea that
:42:43. > :42:47.someone has a right to any privilege I don't have is just
:42:47. > :42:51.absolutely against anything. idea of negotiating civil rights,
:42:51. > :42:57.you described as an absolute obscenity?
:42:57. > :43:05.The whole so-called civil rights whatever it is that you want to
:43:05. > :43:12.call it was an insult, not just to me, it was an insult to the citizen
:43:12. > :43:18.Shinn, in effect what the so-called civil rights movement position was
:43:18. > :43:26.and still is that we good white folks will help you non-whites who
:43:26. > :43:30.don't have the rights we do, although every citizen's supposed
:43:30. > :43:38.to. If you acknowledge you don't have all of them, we'll help you
:43:38. > :43:44.threat three or four that you can enjoy. And at this time, what the
:43:44. > :43:50.whole thing up at Ole Miss is about is saying that we have given you
:43:50. > :44:00.these three or four of your rights and it's progress and you ought to
:44:00. > :44:08.
:44:08. > :44:14.A march is a protest to get someone else to do better to grant you your
:44:14. > :44:20.rites and privileges. So what has changed in the South?
:44:20. > :44:30.Absolutely nothing. I went to war 50 years ago and I'm
:44:30. > :44:33.
:44:33. > :44:37.No matter what happened, the most important thing in American history
:44:38. > :44:43.is the election of Barack Obama's President of the United States. And
:44:43. > :44:50.it ain't going away. He can go on for ever, as long as the United
:44:50. > :44:55.States is the United States, he's going to be an African-American, a
:44:55. > :45:00.half African, half American, President of the United States.
:45:00. > :45:05.He's a President, not because he's pwhack or white, but because he
:45:05. > :45:10.dominated Harvard university -- black or white. It's almost the
:45:10. > :45:16.same as the Dallas Cowboys having their first black quarterback. I
:45:16. > :45:22.mean, the Dallas cowboy didn't shame on a ship. I mean, nothing
:45:22. > :45:26.else has changed. What's changed in America in regards to having an
:45:26. > :45:32.African-American President? Literally nothing, white supremacy
:45:32. > :45:42.still reigns. I should ask you what your legacy might be?
:45:42. > :45:47.Well, I just hope before I die I get the enemy in the knowledge,
:45:47. > :45:54.that I'm 23n a war with them and that they have won the war almost
:45:54. > :46:04.all the time and that maybe I'll have one victory. But they don't
:46:04. > :46:05.
:46:05. > :46:09.even acknowledge that there's a war. That hurt my heart so much, that
:46:09. > :46:14.Mississippi people feel so powerful, they don't even acknowledge I'm big
:46:14. > :46:18.enough to call myself at war with them.
:46:18. > :46:26.James Meredith, thank you very much. And that is all from us. We are off
:46:26. > :46:33.clubbing where we'll be dancing along to Psy sigh the pudgy South
:46:33. > :46:43.Korean whose music's become the most watched of music on YouTube.
:46:43. > :46:46.
:46:46. > :46:56.Queen Beatrix learned the moves and Clare Balding's taught her horses.
:46:56. > :46:56.
:46:56. > :47:47.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 50 seconds
:47:47. > :47:51.The weather is downhill in the south-west. As the wind freshens by
:47:51. > :47:56.the afternoon more showers and longer spells of rain. Showers
:47:56. > :47:59.continue through the day. Pegging back temperatures in the wind.
:47:59. > :48:05.After brief respite, wetter weather moves north across Northern Ireland,
:48:05. > :48:08.maybe getting late sunshine as the rain pushes into south-west
:48:08. > :48:17.Scotland. North-east Scotland may be seeing the best waench with
:48:17. > :48:19.plenty of sunshine. Few shurz in Inverness. Just 11 or 12 degrees.
:48:20. > :48:23.It's brighter around the middle part of the week. As you head
:48:23. > :48:26.further south across the UK, there's the rain coming into