:00:13. > :00:17.Tonight, amidst chaos in the Department for Transport, should we
:00:17. > :00:21.re-think the way the railways run in Britain. With the runnaway cost
:00:21. > :00:25.to the taxpayer of at least �40 million, the award of the west
:00:25. > :00:31.coast rail franchise is on hold. We ask Government what on earth has
:00:31. > :00:35.gone wrong. We are joined by the opposition and the train operators
:00:35. > :00:42.too. Tu,y shells Syria tonight, after a rocket launch from Syria
:00:42. > :00:47.kills five people. In an exclusive television interview, Kofi Annan
:00:47. > :00:51.issues a stark warning of where the conflict could go without UN action.
:00:52. > :00:55.If the security council is not able -- the Security Council not made to
:00:55. > :01:01.come together and work together, we are in a really hopeless situation.
:01:01. > :01:05.Also tonight, the man who dreamt up the philosophy of the Red Tory,
:01:05. > :01:09.launches a massive take on David Cameron's red credentials. Phillip
:01:09. > :01:13.Blond is here along with former policy adviser to David Cameron.
:01:13. > :01:17.We're in America hours ahead of the first presidential debate.
:01:17. > :01:21.Tonight the wonks of Washington, along with 60 million potential
:01:21. > :01:23.voters, will be tune anything to see their presidential candidate
:01:23. > :01:33.goes head-to-head, is this Mitt Romney's last chance to prove he is
:01:33. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :01:43.the man for the job. Good evening, the words "they
:01:44. > :01:47.couldn't run a piss up in a buffet car" spring 0 mind. Three civil
:01:47. > :01:52.servants were persuaded today over the West Coast Mainline deal, which
:01:52. > :01:55.has been scrapped, at a cost of at least �40 million, and the fate of
:01:55. > :02:05.a further two thirds rail franchises, due before the next
:02:05. > :02:09.election, are in serious doubt. Is the whole tendering process flawed.
:02:10. > :02:16.The last time the West Coast Mainline Khan fries was up for
:02:16. > :02:22.grabs, it was 1996 and we were -- franchise was up for grabs, it was
:02:22. > :02:25.1996 and we were all trainspotting. The then Government chose Virgin to
:02:25. > :02:30.operate Britain's most lucrative rail franchise. Speed forward to
:02:30. > :02:34.the last August, there is a Tory- led Government pulling the levers,
:02:34. > :02:39.receiving an angry letter from a Richard in the Virgin islands,
:02:39. > :02:43.saying passengers would suffer if the Westcoast franchise was award
:02:43. > :02:50.today the First Group, two weeks later the Government did just that,
:02:50. > :02:54.much to Richard's chargrin. We have heard our bit was ahead of them up
:02:54. > :02:59.to 2020, and in the last three years, suddenly, they have worked
:02:59. > :03:02.out that they can give the Government another �2 billion,
:03:02. > :03:06.completely unIsrael itsic figures for the numbers of -- unrealistic
:03:06. > :03:09.figures for the numbers of people they will magically get in the last
:03:09. > :03:19.three years. Even if they doubled fares they wouldn't be able to
:03:19. > :03:20.
:03:20. > :03:24.afford it. We are completely baffled. The soon to be ex-
:03:24. > :03:28.Transport Secretary backed the process to the hilt. It is a robust
:03:28. > :03:32.and fair process, the whole point is to make sure it is not politic
:03:32. > :03:35.sized and handled fairly for all the bidder. Even when the new
:03:35. > :03:39.Transport Secretary arrived, the fourth in three years, he too chose
:03:39. > :03:43.to support his troops. companies went to huge amounts of
:03:43. > :03:50.effort to try to win that bid. It was judged fairly by the department,
:03:50. > :03:56.and it is our intention to proceed with the bid that the first of --
:03:56. > :04:00.that Firs have made, I'm content -- first made, I'm content with the
:04:00. > :04:04.way the contract was reviewed. Today he was forced to make the
:04:04. > :04:07.kind of humiliating apology for those self-same civil servants,
:04:07. > :04:11.rarely seen in British political circumstances. What is what has
:04:11. > :04:16.happened is unacceptable, deeply regretable, and of course, I
:04:16. > :04:19.apologise. We have made a big mistake, as far as the department
:04:19. > :04:22.is concerned, and the people who have put bids in have done nothing
:04:22. > :04:25.wrong. He has ordered two independent reviews into what went
:04:25. > :04:29.wrong, the fruits which have will be heard by the end of December.
:04:29. > :04:33.What actually went wrong during the tendering process? When Virgin
:04:33. > :04:37.Trains were told they were losing the franchise, they sought a
:04:37. > :04:40.judicial review. What that did is it forced Government lawyers and
:04:40. > :04:44.senior civil servants to examine in great detail exactly how the
:04:44. > :04:47.tendering process had been worked out. What they discovered was
:04:47. > :04:50.nothing short of a schoolboy error. Inflation had been completely
:04:51. > :04:53.omitted from the calculation. Over one year it may not be much, but
:04:54. > :05:03.over the 13-year lifetime of the franchise, it could have amounted
:05:04. > :05:07.
:05:07. > :05:10.to tens of millions of pounds. So now the whole franchising process,
:05:10. > :05:15.which was itself overhauled when the coalition came to power, has
:05:15. > :05:19.been shunted into the sidings, as two urgent and independent reviews
:05:19. > :05:23.into this shambles get under way. Up to now, companies wishing to run
:05:23. > :05:26.train services in Britain, were required to set aside a much larger
:05:26. > :05:36.sum of money to repay the Government if they could no longer
:05:36. > :05:41.afford to run the franchise. This happened on the Eastcoast line two
:05:41. > :05:48.years ago. First said it would set aside �155 million, Virgin said it
:05:48. > :05:56.should be three-times that amount. Apart from making both rich and
:05:56. > :06:03.poor, what does it mean for the wider structural issues in Britain.
:06:03. > :06:06.This is bad for a Government who want to make private investor --
:06:06. > :06:09.investments for the country. These are people who could go anywhere in
:06:09. > :06:13.the world and invest in any industries in the world. We want to
:06:13. > :06:17.get them here. They have to trust there is an administration that is
:06:17. > :06:20.competent that they can deal with. That the policy risks and
:06:20. > :06:24.regulatory risks are reasonable over the period of the contract,
:06:24. > :06:27.which is quite a long time. This doesn't help build confidence.
:06:27. > :06:31.So with one rail line nationalised and four on hold, many people
:06:31. > :06:35.believe that since the franchise system began, almost 20 years ago,
:06:35. > :06:39.profits have been privatised, but risk continues to be borne by tax-
:06:39. > :06:43.payers. There is always the key issue about
:06:43. > :06:46.whether risk was really transferred to the private sector. The
:06:46. > :06:50.Transport Committee is in the middle of a major review of the
:06:50. > :06:53.rail system, you think we will be looking at what options there may
:06:53. > :06:57.be. It is essential that the public do get value for money, and that
:06:57. > :07:01.the taxpayer does too. But it is also the case that rail has become
:07:01. > :07:05.increasingly popular, more people use the rail, more goods travel by
:07:05. > :07:10.rail, but the cost is too high and the fares are too high. It
:07:10. > :07:13.certainly is a shambles, a shambles on the West Coast Mainline, and
:07:13. > :07:16.potentially a shambles for the system. But we do need the results
:07:16. > :07:21.of those investigations and to question those results, before we
:07:22. > :07:28.can come to firm conclusions. So, a cash-strapped Government is
:07:28. > :07:35.now paying out �40 million to all four companies, who bid for the
:07:35. > :07:38.west -- West Coast franchise, and it could face more claims from
:07:38. > :07:43.First Group. The passengers will have to wait longer for a change in
:07:43. > :07:48.services and for the Government's reputation to recover.
:07:48. > :07:53.Where should the finger of blame be pointed? It is really hard to tell.
:07:53. > :07:58.Independent analysts I have spoken to say you can't really credible
:07:58. > :08:02.place the blame at Justine Greening's door, these sums are too
:08:02. > :08:06.complicated for the Secretary of State to comb through themselves.
:08:06. > :08:10.They breakdown the cull paability in the Civil Service, --
:08:10. > :08:13.culpability in the Civil Service, there are three suspended, they may
:08:14. > :08:18.lose their jobs. If turns out the bidding process was beyond their
:08:18. > :08:24.capability, then you bring in ministers, the people who devised
:08:24. > :08:27.the system, then you come to Teresa Villiers, now promoted to Northern
:08:27. > :08:31.Ireland Secretary. Having said that what is interesting, is you have
:08:31. > :08:35.Conservative MPs who are saying Justine Greening should take the
:08:35. > :08:39.blame for it, you have the cabinet responsibility, it was on her watch,
:08:39. > :08:43.and the discrepancy between the first bid and the Virgin bid, was
:08:43. > :08:48.so huge, she should have asked for other numbers. We have the Times
:08:48. > :08:52.front page here, they are running a suggestion, the Times say they
:08:52. > :08:55.understand, so it is not sourced, they say they understand that
:08:55. > :08:59.Greening learned of a blow to the bid in the week before the cabinet
:08:59. > :09:06.reshuffle. We have been talking in the office about this evening, my
:09:06. > :09:09.sources don't think it is credible. The other things to think about is
:09:09. > :09:13.Patrick McLoughlin who has her job, went to the Transport Select
:09:13. > :09:17.Committee last week and kept to her line. Why did he do that. Was she
:09:17. > :09:22.allowed to do that, if she knew. What damage will this do to the
:09:22. > :09:26.whole coalition franchising policy, what they did is they changed
:09:26. > :09:30.existing franchising rules and made a new franchising system? It is one
:09:30. > :09:35.of the first things when you speak to sources in Government today, it
:09:35. > :09:40.was one of the first things, that is not going anywhere, franchising
:09:40. > :09:45.as a philosophy is the only way to do it. They say it was a state
:09:45. > :09:49.mishap, it was Government civil servants getting it wrong, going
:09:49. > :09:53.more in-house rather than out-of- house is mad. I would imagine it
:09:53. > :09:59.will turn up massive bits of fine tuning. There is a problem for the
:09:59. > :10:03.Government. It is the day after the leader of the opposition has had a
:10:03. > :10:07.lot of fun saying the Government is incompetent, a shambles is a word
:10:07. > :10:11.we have heard a lot. Then this happens, it is bad timing and
:10:11. > :10:14.embarrassing. Earlier I spoke to Simon Burns, a new minister in the
:10:14. > :10:18.Department of Transport, in fact, after the reshuffle last month,
:10:18. > :10:20.they are all new ministers at the Department of Transport, bar one
:10:20. > :10:24.Liberal Democrat minister. Simon Burns, the Government was warned
:10:24. > :10:29.about this two months ago, it has taken until the day before court to
:10:29. > :10:35.put your hands up, why? What happened was is Sir Richard Branson,
:10:35. > :10:39.after the decision of made, sought to pursue judicial review. And at
:10:39. > :10:45.that point we, obvious low, had had to look at what had happened --
:10:45. > :10:49.obviously, had to look at what had happened, the franchise, ministers
:10:49. > :10:53.did this. We were assured everything was done robustly and
:10:53. > :10:56.correctly. Ministers looked at the figures? No, ministers working with
:10:56. > :11:00.civil servants, were assured by the civil servants, who did the work,
:11:00. > :11:05.that everything had been done robustly, had been done in keeping
:11:05. > :11:10.with the arrangements for the franchising, and so, we took the
:11:10. > :11:15.view that there was no justification for the judicial
:11:15. > :11:18.review, initial low. Then, of course, as we a-- initially. Then,
:11:18. > :11:23.of course, when we approached the time for a court hearing, more work
:11:23. > :11:25.was done. Work that should have been done earlier? Work done prior
:11:26. > :11:29.to the announcement of the decision. It was flawed work. It took lawyers
:11:29. > :11:35.to find out what people in your department should have found out?
:11:35. > :11:38.Yes, because we did not know it was flawed. All through the long
:11:38. > :11:43.franchise process, ministers were being advised by civil servants who
:11:43. > :11:48.were doing the work, ministers kept seeking assurances, that it was
:11:48. > :11:51.being done in the correct way, that everything was working to the right
:11:51. > :11:56.arrangements, they received those assurances. On that basis, with the
:11:56. > :11:59.advice they were given, they then took decisions. We have got, you
:11:59. > :12:06.know, all the ministers bar one have been shuffled on very
:12:06. > :12:09.conveniently, if you look at Teresa Villers and Justine Greening is an
:12:09. > :12:13.accountant, she was saying it was robust. Does the minister not have
:12:13. > :12:16.a duty to say to civil servants, it is not going to be Virgin, it is
:12:16. > :12:21.going to be First Group, that is a big change, let me see the figures,
:12:21. > :12:25.if you are an accountant? I can assure you everything was done,
:12:25. > :12:29.ministers were constantly seeking assurances and information that
:12:29. > :12:32.everything was being done to the proper procedures, and those
:12:32. > :12:34.assurances were given. You have a situation where the Institute of
:12:34. > :12:40.Government talks about the fact that the Department of Transport
:12:41. > :12:44.has taken 20% cuts in man power, these are highly complex franchises,
:12:44. > :12:48.the problem is you have cut the feet from under the civil servants
:12:48. > :12:52.and now they are taking the rap? don't agree with that. Because we
:12:52. > :12:55.have some very fine civil servants in the department of the transport,
:12:55. > :12:59.they work extremely hard. But three of them have been suspended? They
:12:59. > :13:06.have, in the light of what has now transpired. You have two inquiries
:13:06. > :13:10.to look at this, if I can give you two names here, Ed Smith, and Sam
:13:10. > :13:17.Laidlaw, they are leading the inquiry into the flawed process?
:13:17. > :13:23.They are looking into what happened, what went wrong and why it did.
:13:23. > :13:25.This is an independent inquiry, but they are non-executive directors on
:13:25. > :13:30.the Department of Transport board, would they not have signed off on
:13:30. > :13:33.the deal? No, it was signed off by ministers. So, wait a minute, the
:13:33. > :13:38.non-executive board of which these two men are members, had absolutely
:13:39. > :13:42.nothing to do with the signing off, or even looking at who would get
:13:42. > :13:46.the franchise? The ultimate decision on it was taken by
:13:46. > :13:50.ministers. One final question, the model for costing for the high-
:13:50. > :13:54.speed service, you are sure that has been worked out, without flaws,
:13:54. > :13:59.so there haven't been any civil servant errors in that? What I have
:13:59. > :14:04.said, is the method, the methodology is not flawed, it is
:14:04. > :14:10.the way in which it was used. it been flawed in the high-speed
:14:10. > :14:14.rail? But we have this inquiry, the Brown inquiry to look at the whole
:14:14. > :14:18.area of franchising, what went wrong, and where we can learn. Of
:14:18. > :14:22.course, that will cover the whole realm of network and implications.
:14:22. > :14:25.The high-speed rail, the costings for that, based on that model,
:14:25. > :14:30.because they may have had a problem with inflation and so forth, they
:14:30. > :14:34.could be wrong? No, because the methodology was not wrong with the
:14:34. > :14:38.franchises. In terms of the high- speed rail costs, how do you know
:14:38. > :14:45.the right figures have been put in? Because I am confident that is the
:14:45. > :14:48.case, because it has been looked at time and time again, by, not simply
:14:48. > :14:52.the Department for Transport, but also HS2 itself. Minister, thank
:14:52. > :14:55.you very much. Here to discuss all this are Tom
:14:55. > :15:01.Smith, the chairman of the Association of Train Operating
:15:01. > :15:04.Companies, and veteran of several franchise negotiations mark Wallis
:15:04. > :15:08.from the Institute of Directors, and from the Labour Party
:15:08. > :15:11.Conference, we are joined by the shadow Transport Secretary, Maria
:15:11. > :15:15.Eagle. Maria Eagle, first of all, you heard the minister saying every
:15:15. > :15:19.check and balance of made by ministers, everything done that
:15:19. > :15:25.could have been done was done? just don't think it is good enough
:15:25. > :15:30.to put the blame on civil servants, and there are matters arising now
:15:30. > :15:33.in the newspapers where there are suggestions that Justine Greening
:15:33. > :15:39.knew there was a problem with the franchise before the reshuffle. I
:15:39. > :15:43.think we have to get the facts out there now. We need to hear from
:15:43. > :15:47.ministers who knew, what, when, was the Prime Minister aware of the
:15:47. > :15:50.problems before he decided to remove all of the Tory ministers in
:15:50. > :15:53.the Department for Transport, or was he not. We need to hear from
:15:53. > :15:57.him and get to the bottom of this, as well as looking at what is
:15:57. > :16:02.technically going to be done to put this right in future. Let's lock a
:16:02. > :16:06.bit of that, first of all, from the point of view of the taxpayer, the
:16:06. > :16:10.taxpayer we know will pony up �40 million to the four different
:16:10. > :16:13.companies. The Government has shown itself to be less than competent,
:16:14. > :16:19.how do we know that the taxpayer is not going to have to come up with a
:16:19. > :16:23.lot more money before this is over? It is a bad error that has been
:16:23. > :16:28.uncovered today. The Department for Transport has quickly moved to say
:16:28. > :16:32.they will look into it, and find out what has gone wrong. It is very
:16:32. > :16:35.important not to get too gloomy about it, because the reality is
:16:35. > :16:39.Fran chietsing, in which private companies -- franchising, in which
:16:39. > :16:42.private companies bid for the right to run services, has been very
:16:42. > :16:45.successful over the years since it has been introduced. It has
:16:45. > :16:49.overseen improvements in trains and stations, and a growing number of
:16:49. > :16:53.passengers, to record levels. you buy the ministers point of view
:16:53. > :17:01.that it is nothing to do with the Government, all to do with civil
:17:01. > :17:04.servants? That has come to come out of the review that will come out in
:17:04. > :17:08.the next month. They will look at that in great depth. What decisions
:17:08. > :17:12.were made and at what level must whab we learn from that. On the
:17:12. > :17:16.immediate question of what happened on December 9th, the Government can
:17:16. > :17:20.either put it over and run the service itself or Richard Branson
:17:20. > :17:26.can do it, what is your preferred option? I'm going to try to look at
:17:26. > :17:30.it from the point of view of passengers, who use the service.
:17:30. > :17:33.I'm conscious there is a large on- line petition in support of Virgin,
:17:33. > :17:36.what it suggests to me is passengers would like continuity
:17:36. > :17:40.and Virgin running the services rather than an artificial change to
:17:40. > :17:43.a short-term option. Maria Eagle, would that be your view too?
:17:43. > :17:45.don't think it is possible, if there is going to be a
:17:45. > :17:48.refranchising of this, for the department to favour one of the
:17:49. > :17:53.potential bidders against another. They might open themselves up to
:17:53. > :17:58.even more litigation. So I think it would be sensible, and we would
:17:58. > :18:02.support this, for the not for private profit Government-owned
:18:02. > :18:06.company that currently runs East Coast, and returned last year
:18:06. > :18:09.almost �200 million to the taxpayer, to step in and run this line whilst
:18:09. > :18:12.this is sorted out. Is this a stocking horse for
:18:12. > :18:16.renationalisation, if you were in charge, would it be? With the
:18:16. > :18:20.amount of money, at least �40 million poured down the drain over
:18:20. > :18:23.the last evening. We don't want to do something that will make it
:18:23. > :18:27.likely that even more litigation may succeed against the Government.
:18:27. > :18:32.It is prudent not to choose one over the other, when there is
:18:32. > :18:34.potential for this process to be rerun. What does this say for the
:18:34. > :18:38.whole franchise procurement policy of this Government? It doesn't say
:18:38. > :18:40.we need to renationalise the railways. The idea the Civil
:18:40. > :18:45.Service make a mistake, therefore the Government should start running
:18:45. > :18:48.all the railways, is a bizarre logic. More troubling it says that
:18:48. > :18:51.actually the skills in Whitehall simply aren't there to negotiate
:18:51. > :18:53.and properly run these processes, at the moment. And we have seen
:18:53. > :18:57.these problems, not just in the Department of Transport, but also
:18:57. > :19:02.in the MoD with commissioning, and the NHS database, and the lessons
:19:02. > :19:08.still haven't been learned from business yet. If you were looking
:19:08. > :19:11.to pick up an airport contract, or a nuclear contract in Britain,
:19:11. > :19:15.would what happened today affect you, do you think, or would you
:19:15. > :19:17.just think this is a blip, it has been an accounting error, they
:19:18. > :19:21.forgot inflation and got the passenger numbers too high, it will
:19:21. > :19:24.be OK? This is undoubtedly something that will impact
:19:24. > :19:28.negatively on Britain's noble reputation. We already know there
:19:28. > :19:34.is too much uncertainty on the future of airport xas a nuclear
:19:34. > :19:40.power stations, we need to raise this money and this will deter
:19:41. > :19:45.investors. Can I clarify something Maria may have misunderstood. When
:19:45. > :19:48.I talked about should happen on the 9th of December, I mean it should
:19:48. > :19:51.be agreement reached with Virgin on a short-term basis until another
:19:51. > :19:54.competition is held. Clearly there has to be a competition. I don't
:19:54. > :19:58.think it would be helpful. She was meaning you shouldn't favour one of
:19:58. > :20:03.the potential bidders by giving them an extension? That bid is over.
:20:03. > :20:09.The franchise, the services have to continue in some way. Until the new
:20:09. > :20:13.competition is held. Talking about a complete rebuilding process, for
:20:13. > :20:16.the West Coast Mainline, we are talking about delaying the next
:20:16. > :20:22.three franchise options, we are talking about a full examination of
:20:22. > :20:28.the system, as Mark Wallis says, it doesn't look good for British
:20:28. > :20:32.industry? It is essential the two reviews are conduct. That it
:20:32. > :20:37.engages with everyone with a state in franchising, especially our
:20:37. > :20:40.members who bid and run the franchises, and they come to clear
:20:40. > :20:45.conclusions that restore confidence in the way the process is run.
:20:45. > :20:49.Would you be calling for a review of the franchising overall, or
:20:49. > :20:53.indeed transport generally? Yes, I think that the flawed franchising
:20:53. > :20:58.process that this Government have designed, and implemented, this was
:20:58. > :21:03.the first one they tried to tender, it does need to be looked at, in a
:21:03. > :21:06.wider sense than the review announced by the Transport
:21:06. > :21:10.Secretary. We need to see what lessons can be learned for the
:21:10. > :21:13.future, we need better value for money for passengers. I think
:21:13. > :21:18.ministers and the Prime Minister have got questions to answer here.
:21:18. > :21:22.The Prime Minister said when he was in opposition that ministers should,
:21:22. > :21:26.that presided over systematic and serious performance failures in
:21:26. > :21:28.their department, should be held to account. And they should not seek
:21:28. > :21:33.to shuffle off responsibility. There is a direct quote, that is
:21:33. > :21:37.what we seem to be seeing today. They have been reshuffled off?
:21:37. > :21:41.have been reshuffled off, but the new transport ministers have also
:21:41. > :21:43.given assurance this was a proper and robust processes. There are
:21:43. > :21:47.many questions the Prime Minister and ministers, and previous
:21:47. > :21:50.ministers in the department need to answer. We're not hearing those
:21:50. > :21:57.answers tonight. In terms of looking at it from a business
:21:57. > :22:01.perspective, if this drags on, what we are talking about here, Tom
:22:01. > :22:04.Smith saying they have put in place -- it is impertinent that the two
:22:04. > :22:08.inquiries proceed quickly. If this drags on and there seems to be
:22:08. > :22:14.problems with the high-speed rail issue, then what will the damage
:22:14. > :22:20.be? The damage grows the longer this lasts, and the uncertainty is
:22:20. > :22:23.the real harm to Britain's reputation. If we are uncertain of
:22:23. > :22:26.our future, if companies can't be sure when they put in an
:22:26. > :22:30.application that if they win they win and if they lose they lose,
:22:30. > :22:34.where will we be in five years to replace more national
:22:34. > :22:37.infrastructure. NATO ambassadors are meeting tonight, following a
:22:37. > :22:43.Syrian mortar attack into Turkey that killed five people. In a major
:22:43. > :22:47.escalation, a few hours ago, Turkey retaliated, firing artillery units
:22:47. > :22:52.into Syria. Just before we came on air, the US Secretary of State,
:22:52. > :23:00.Hillary Clinton, gave this statement. We are outraged that the
:23:00. > :23:06.Syrians have been shooting across the border. We are very regretful
:23:06. > :23:10.about the loss of life that has occurred on the Turkish side. We
:23:10. > :23:18.are working with our Turkish friends, I will be speaking with
:23:18. > :23:25.the Foreign Minister. To discuss what the best way forward would be
:23:25. > :23:28.I will discuss that later. This also comes down to a regime that is
:23:28. > :23:34.causing untold suffering to its own people, solely driven by their
:23:34. > :23:38.desire to stay in power. As Hillary Clinton said, this came as at least
:23:38. > :23:42.31 people were killed in Aleppo, and dozens more injured in a series
:23:42. > :23:46.of suicide bombs. I spoke to Kofi Annan earlier today, in an
:23:46. > :23:51.exclusive TV interview, he told us the conflict coin flame the whole
:23:51. > :23:53.region, and said, -- could inflame the whole region, and said if the
:23:53. > :23:59.Security Council didn't pull together the situation could get
:23:59. > :24:04.much worse. I was speaking to him about his memoir marking his five
:24:04. > :24:07.decades at the UN. Kofi Annan said he has spent his life seeking peace
:24:07. > :24:12.across the world. Pressing the flesh with world leaders and
:24:12. > :24:15.working in intractable conflicts. His work won him the Nobel Prize in
:24:15. > :24:19.2001, the committee said he received it for a better organised
:24:19. > :24:23.and more peaceful world. But his career has been punctuated by
:24:23. > :24:28.failures. The Rwandan genocide that tok place in 1994 was committed
:24:28. > :24:32.whilst -- took place in 1994 was committed whilst Annan directed
:24:32. > :24:37.peacekeeping operations, in what was one of the worst genocides in
:24:37. > :24:41.living memory, 800,000 Tutsis were murdered. Kofi Annan admitted after,
:24:41. > :24:45.he realised after the genocide that there was more he could have and
:24:45. > :24:52.should have done to sound the alarm and rally support. He also
:24:52. > :24:58.described the massacre in veb nieceia in the Bosnian war, derb
:24:58. > :25:04.Srebrenica, that occurred in the Be Your Own Bossia war was not good
:25:04. > :25:07.for the United Nations. He look -- Bosnia was not good for the United
:25:07. > :25:12.Nations. He claimed the invasion of Iraq and the toppling of Saddam
:25:12. > :25:15.Hussein was illegal, and said the decision to invade Iraq should have
:25:15. > :25:21.been made by the Security Council and not unilaterally. Recently he
:25:21. > :25:26.has been working to end the bloody war in Syria as UN-Arab League
:25:26. > :25:31.envoy, he had a six-point plan for Syria intended to bring an end to
:25:31. > :25:34.the fighting. It was never fully adhered to by either side. He quit
:25:35. > :25:39.the role saying when the Syrian people needed action there
:25:39. > :25:42.continues to be finger-pointing and name-calling in the Security
:25:42. > :25:46.Council. It looks as if the inaction is set to continue in the
:25:46. > :25:52.UN he leaves behind. This afternoon I met Kofi Annan in
:25:52. > :25:59.London. What are you most proud of in your
:25:59. > :26:02.50-year career at the UN? Well, I think making it to the top, without
:26:03. > :26:08.really expecting to get there. Because no staff member had had
:26:08. > :26:14.ever made it to the top. The organisation always looked outside
:26:14. > :26:21.for a leader. But once I was in I was extremely pleased with the work
:26:21. > :26:24.we did on the millennium goals to fight poverty around the world.
:26:24. > :26:28.David Cameron addressed the General Assembly, the blood of these
:26:28. > :26:32.children, and we know again today that there is 31 more dead in
:26:32. > :26:37.Aleppo, that the blood of these young children, in Syria, is a
:26:37. > :26:43.terrible stain on the reputation of the United Nations. I hope when
:26:43. > :26:53.Prime Minister Cameron says it is a blot on the reputation of the UN,
:26:53. > :26:56.he is saying, in shorthand, it is a blot on our reputation, we have
:26:56. > :27:03.made mistake, not the bureaucracy that is the UN. With the members of
:27:03. > :27:09.the Security Council, we know that Russia has been supplying hardware,
:27:09. > :27:11.ships, engineering parts for Sadek, we understand, we think -- Assad,
:27:11. > :27:16.we understand, we think the Americans are supporting the
:27:16. > :27:19.training of the FSA in Turkey. This is the Security Council supposed to
:27:19. > :27:23.be doing nothing to inflame the situation. If the security is doing
:27:23. > :27:28.that, why should anyone believe the UN can fix things? You are right
:27:28. > :27:33.that the divisions in the council really hurt the search for a
:27:33. > :27:39.solution. That was one of the reasons I resigned, as you know.
:27:39. > :27:42.But I think the challenge is to overcome those divisions. To get
:27:42. > :27:48.them working, I tried at the beginning they came together, they
:27:48. > :27:53.supported the six-point plan, but it was not sustained. If the
:27:53. > :27:57.Security Council is not made to come together, or find a way of
:27:57. > :28:01.getting them to work together, then we are in a really, really hopeless
:28:01. > :28:05.situation. And Syria will descend further into
:28:05. > :28:09.war? It could get worse, it could get much worse. It could affect the
:28:09. > :28:15.region. How do we solve the problem? As I have said, my choice
:28:15. > :28:19.is that it has to be a political settlement. And if the
:28:19. > :28:24.militarisation or intervention in my judgment will make the situation
:28:24. > :28:28.much morse, in my opinion. We raise the issue that Syria will not
:28:28. > :28:34.implode, but possibly explode, and beyond its borders. Bringing in the
:28:34. > :28:38.whole region. What do you foresee happening if Syria explodes?
:28:38. > :28:44.think the neighbours will be drawn in. Already we are seeing thousands
:28:44. > :28:51.of refugees going into Jordan, some are in Lebanon, and they are in
:28:51. > :28:56.Turkey, Iraq is worried with cross- border Jihadist elements coming in
:28:56. > :29:01.across the border. So, the whole region could get inflamed. Do you
:29:01. > :29:07.think now the only solution is for Assad to go? There is no doubt that
:29:07. > :29:11.he cannot stay, you cannot kill that many people and remain
:29:11. > :29:17.legitimate. That is not the solution, that is maybe part of the
:29:17. > :29:21.solution. What happens when he goes? We need to make sure that the
:29:21. > :29:26.right institutions, the security forces work, that you don't get
:29:26. > :29:31.into a chaotic collapse, this is part of the problem. But do you
:29:31. > :29:36.think, with hindsight, that when you took up the role for Syria, you
:29:36. > :29:42.should have been, as it were less even-handed at the beginning,
:29:42. > :29:46.should have just said right from the get-go, Mr Assad, you have to
:29:46. > :29:53.leave? That is not a negotiator's role, I was brought in to try to
:29:53. > :29:57.bring the parties to the table. As you have yourself indicate, even
:29:57. > :30:03.the big powers have not been able to do that. For the mediator to
:30:03. > :30:10.walk in and think he can do that, he would be dreaming. In your book
:30:10. > :30:20.you talk about the genocide in Rwanda. You say that the world
:30:20. > :30:20.
:30:20. > :30:26.failed Rwanda. Is there a way you think you yourself failed Rwanda?
:30:26. > :30:31.Maybe, I could have shouted louder. As I indicate in the book, we made
:30:31. > :30:35.lots of attempts to get troops we didn't get. Maybe I could have use
:30:35. > :30:44.the press more. At that time the UN was media shy. In fact, the only
:30:44. > :30:48.person who spoke to the press was the secretary-general. I was the
:30:48. > :30:57.under secretary-general, I think we were too timid about engaging the
:30:57. > :31:02.press. Now I know better how to work with the press. But when
:31:02. > :31:08.General Delere sent the memo saying it looked as if there was a
:31:08. > :31:12.massacre ahead, and the memo went back with your signature and saying
:31:12. > :31:17.do nothing, tell the ambassadors of the other countries. Do you regret
:31:17. > :31:23.that now? No, there was a situation in the organisation when you put
:31:23. > :31:27.things in context, we just had the disaster in Somalia, which led to
:31:27. > :31:31.the withdrawal of thousands of peacekeepers. We were worried that
:31:31. > :31:35.if they got in there, and they were confronted in the same manner as
:31:35. > :31:40.Somalia, that would be the end of that mission, and you wouldn't have
:31:40. > :31:44.troops on the ground to do anything. Is there a danger that nobody
:31:44. > :31:49.actually can finally take responsibility. It is such a
:31:49. > :31:52.complicated messy thing. I'm finding you don't want to talk
:31:52. > :31:58.about him, that he kept everything close to him, and you a different
:31:58. > :32:03.approach. The point is nobody fess up when there are mistakes? First
:32:03. > :32:07.of all, there two were two major reports, by, one of them, I
:32:07. > :32:12.commissioned, the other one, the General Assembly commission, on
:32:12. > :32:16.Rwanda and Bosnia and Srebrenica, in particular, where we laid out
:32:16. > :32:20.the failures, our mistakes and others, I apologised on my own
:32:20. > :32:26.behalf, and on behalf of the entire organisation. Thank you very much
:32:26. > :32:31.indeed. David Cameron was casting around
:32:31. > :32:37.for big ideas to kick start a new kind of, and kinder Conservatism,
:32:37. > :32:42.he alighted on the ideas of Phillip Blond. Red Tory Boy, who gave The
:32:42. > :32:45.Big Idea society Tory clout, was a One Nation Tory too. Now he is
:32:45. > :32:48.disillusioned, his plans for relocalising the economy,
:32:48. > :32:52.recapitalising the poor, and remoralising the market, have
:32:52. > :33:00.turned to dues dust in the hand of David Cameron, if his words. In an
:33:00. > :33:10.article for the Guardian tomorrow, he says Ed Miliband is The One Show
:33:10. > :33:12.
:33:12. > :33:18.man now. -- is the One Nation now.
:33:18. > :33:22.He said Tories should be Red, being associated with policies normally
:33:22. > :33:25.associated with the left. Now Phillip Blond claims he is
:33:25. > :33:29.disappointed and disillusioned with the direction David Cameron has
:33:29. > :33:32.taken. Disillusionment with the Cameron project from someone like
:33:32. > :33:39.Phillip Blond, will that worry David Cameron, or is it something
:33:39. > :33:43.he can shrug off? I don't think he can shrug it off, Phillip Blond was
:33:43. > :33:49.associated when Cameron was at its peak, as one of the biggest cheer
:33:49. > :33:56.leaders. He came up with the incredibly potent expression called
:33:56. > :33:58.Red Toryism, the media found him a fascinating figure, he became an
:33:58. > :34:03.important part of the Conservative Party for David Cameron was
:34:03. > :34:07.different and changing. If David Cameron looks like he's losing a
:34:07. > :34:13.supporter like that, it is not good news. But he was never as central a
:34:13. > :34:18.figure in the Cameron project as perhaps some presented. So it's far
:34:18. > :34:22.from a serious or a fatal blow. Big Idea society was David
:34:22. > :34:27.Cameron's big idea. Introduced rather late in the 2010 election
:34:27. > :34:31.campaign, that left many baffled. Phillip Blond fears it has been
:34:31. > :34:36.quietly dropped now as an idea, particularly since its champion
:34:36. > :34:42.inside Downing Street, Steve Hilton, has left. There were widespread
:34:42. > :34:48.reports that he was frustrated at being sidelined. Is Phillip Blond
:34:48. > :34:52.right, has David Cameron abandoned, if you like, his earlier enthusiasm
:34:52. > :34:55.for devolving power down to communities, and squandering this
:34:55. > :34:58.opportunity to reshape Conservatives? Not at all, it is
:34:58. > :35:01.very much happening on the ground. If we lock at what is happening in
:35:01. > :35:06.Dover, with the people's port project, to take over the port of
:35:06. > :35:10.Dover, we are expecting a decision in the next month. Schools changed
:35:10. > :35:14.into academies and being able to control their affairs much more
:35:14. > :35:17.effectively than through departmentss and local authorities,
:35:17. > :35:22.and also the experience of the doctors being able to take more
:35:22. > :35:26.control over the NHS. They know more about their patients than
:35:26. > :35:30.centralised NHS in Whitehall. I think that is a really positive
:35:30. > :35:34.thing about this Government, that has been devolving, decentralising
:35:34. > :35:37.across the board. Phillip Blond believes there is already evidence
:35:37. > :35:42.that Labour is moving on to this territory, that David Cameron
:35:42. > :35:45.should be worried, that in his conference speech, yesterday, Ed
:35:45. > :35:49.Miliband delivered a similar message to the one the Prime
:35:49. > :35:53.Minister had once articulated. Is that something to worry David
:35:53. > :35:58.Cameron, if Ed Miliband becomes a convincing voice for this kind of
:35:58. > :36:02.idea? The Conservative Party cannot afford to be complacent, the
:36:02. > :36:04.Conservative Party need to ensure it is not just the party of
:36:04. > :36:09.economics, but also the party of compassion. But I think most people
:36:09. > :36:12.know the Labour Party has a heart, and Ed Miliband hasn't addressed
:36:12. > :36:16.the fundamental Labour weaknesses, which people are not sure that
:36:16. > :36:20.Labour have quite the head, the understanding of how to run an
:36:20. > :36:27.economy. The understanding how to make things work and repair the
:36:27. > :36:32.mess that Labour left behind. Ed Miliband gave a good speech this
:36:32. > :36:36.week, but his problem is not that Labour is seen as caring, but it is
:36:36. > :36:40.whether they are seen as competent. I have got to know Philip and Hayes
:36:40. > :36:43.work a little bit over the past few years, while I wouldn't say I agree
:36:43. > :36:47.with everything he has said or everything he and his think-tank
:36:47. > :36:52.are going to say. You can say that again. Although the Prime Minister
:36:52. > :36:56.has more to worry about right now than one disappointed think-tanker.
:36:56. > :37:00.Phillip Blond's criticisms will be in theed. And ahead of the party
:37:00. > :37:05.conference next week, will have the capacity to wound.
:37:05. > :37:08.Phillip Blond is here, along with Sean Worth, former policy adviser
:37:08. > :37:12.to David Cameron in Downing Street, and who now works at the at this
:37:12. > :37:17.tank Policy Exchange. Aren't you just acting like a bit of a spurned
:37:17. > :37:22.roufr? Goodness, what a thought -- Lover? Goodness, what a thought,
:37:22. > :37:27.not in the slightest. Rather I'm acting for a vision I believe in,
:37:27. > :37:31.and I think the majority of the British people believe in. And if
:37:31. > :37:35.we want a Conservative Party that spweeks to the majority, and
:37:35. > :37:41.doesn't -- speaks to the majority and doesn't do minority politics,
:37:42. > :37:47.it has to speak to its One Nation tradition and element. The
:37:47. > :37:49.sacrifice of that appeal will condemn the Conservative Party to a
:37:49. > :37:53.permanent minority. Conservative Party with a permanent
:37:53. > :37:58.minority because they didn't follow through? The implication here is
:37:58. > :38:03.that the Government has some how lost the reforming zeal, the social
:38:03. > :38:07.vision. That is exact low what Philip is saying in the article? --
:38:07. > :38:12.exactly what Philip is saying in the article? Look at the policy and
:38:12. > :38:17.fronts of reform, they are the most radical and far reaching since the
:38:17. > :38:20.Second World War. That is an objective fact, not just my biased
:38:20. > :38:26.opinion. In terms of what is popular with the voters. I look at
:38:26. > :38:30.this, I don't look at this as an issue of dropping a social agenda,
:38:30. > :38:35.I look at it as a Government in mid-term. This particular period in
:38:35. > :38:40.the electoral cycle. You focus on issues like jobs, and growth,
:38:40. > :38:45.because you know that. If you throw it away, Phillip Blond seems to be
:38:45. > :38:50.seeing, and the expression you are using is re-tokifying the Tory
:38:51. > :38:55.Party, that is an important point? It is not that I disagree with this,
:38:55. > :38:59.some of the policies are radical, I would like them to be more radical.
:38:59. > :39:03.If Dover does get its people's port, brilliant. It is very clear from
:39:03. > :39:06.the outside and inside that the Government has lost its central
:39:07. > :39:10.focus and its central focus has to be a vision. You organise your
:39:10. > :39:14.party and policies. It is OK when you are in opposition, someone like
:39:14. > :39:17.you in opposition gives them the big overarching report, but then
:39:17. > :39:21.the reality is they have to get the deficit down, that is what they
:39:22. > :39:26.have to see as their primary concern? What has happened, this is
:39:26. > :39:30.a great tragedy, is means have eclipsed ends. Deficit reduction is
:39:30. > :39:33.a means, but to what end. Until the Government can rearticulate and
:39:33. > :39:37.give a vision, at the moment they are not offering a positive account
:39:37. > :39:41.of the type of world we want, and the type of world we need. And the
:39:41. > :39:45.strength of Ed Miliband's speech as he did that, and the shame is
:39:45. > :39:49.that's Cameron's territory. What I would like is Cameron to move back
:39:49. > :39:53.and give us the vision that will give a majority.
:39:53. > :39:56.First of all, on Ed's speech, it was great, it was a brilliant
:39:56. > :40:02.speech, probably the best he has delivered. But it didn't have a
:40:02. > :40:06.great deal behind it. There was a lot of excitement, from a press
:40:06. > :40:11.pack that want a battle of ideas. You are not going to get policy
:40:11. > :40:16.this far out? This is my point about where the different parties
:40:16. > :40:19.are at different parts in the parliamentary cycle, Ed Miliband
:40:19. > :40:23.needs to communicate vision, and Cameron needs to look at the
:40:23. > :40:27.voters' top priority, and they have to focus on those things. Of course
:40:27. > :40:31.there is a social mission. I think, unfortunately, that is completely
:40:31. > :40:35.wrong. The great shame is that Number Ten has lost the policy
:40:35. > :40:39.vision. It has surrendered it to departments, the Treasury is more
:40:39. > :40:43.powerful than Number Ten. believe he's in hock to George
:40:43. > :40:48.Osborne? I don't believe that, it is surrendering policy issue to the
:40:48. > :40:51.Treasury. What has happened is what they like is a cacophony of voices
:40:51. > :40:54.in Number Ten, many different versions, but you can't deliver
:40:54. > :40:59.like that. Successful Governments need clear principle and need to
:41:00. > :41:02.ensure that every part of Government follows that principle.
:41:02. > :41:05.There isn't a clear principle at the moment, what type of
:41:05. > :41:09.Conservative is David Cameron. We need to hear that, we need it to be
:41:10. > :41:16.a Conservatism. He's not a red Tory? He needs to be if he wants to
:41:16. > :41:19.win a majority. Does he? If it is a question about what do people want,
:41:19. > :41:23.I don't think The Big Idea society was top of the list. Let's be
:41:23. > :41:27.honest. I'm not opposed to it, I believe in the vision of changing
:41:27. > :41:31.the nature of the state. I think actually towards the election,
:41:31. > :41:35.there will not be a stronger focus on the social. What I would say is
:41:36. > :41:42.that there are really important reform agendas, as I mentioned
:41:42. > :41:47.earlier, they probably need to be turbo charge that doesn't mean you
:41:47. > :41:51.have lost sight of any social vision. Incertainly and external
:41:51. > :41:55.people think the Government has lost its way. It has done that
:41:55. > :41:59.because we don't have a defining vision from the centre that can
:41:59. > :42:09.structure the rest of policy and departments. It is not clear what
:42:09. > :42:14.sort of Conservatism we have. Is it austerity or 20th century poverty.
:42:14. > :42:19.People don't ask the kind of past you have, they say do you share my
:42:19. > :42:25.value, are you focusing on the things I care about. Jobs and all
:42:25. > :42:32.that? The trouble is, Conservatism is now actually creating
:42:32. > :42:36.economically clash with cash in a huge way. We are creating monoplies
:42:36. > :42:41.and cartels, let's have a radical Conservatism that distributes power
:42:41. > :42:45.and property to all. That is what the Prime Minister needs to convey.
:42:45. > :42:48.In the early hours of the morning on the other side of the Atlantic,
:42:48. > :42:54.the US presidential election will finally catch fire for millions of
:42:54. > :42:58.Americans. Denver hosts the first of three live televised 90-minute
:42:58. > :43:06.presidential debates, for the first time President Obama and Mitt
:43:06. > :43:09.Romney come face-to-face. Romney goes in trailing in key states, but
:43:09. > :43:13.the debates can make-or-break a candidate. In this election how
:43:13. > :43:17.important will these debates be? Very, very important if you are the
:43:17. > :43:21.host broadcaster, I suspect. CNN is talking like it is Christmas. They
:43:21. > :43:25.are expecting 60 million viewers for the presidential debate tonight.
:43:25. > :43:29.And every commentator, everyone you talk to, is saying it is crunch
:43:29. > :43:32.time and it will be the most important thing. Newt Gingrich has
:43:32. > :43:36.said this is the most important moment of Mitt Romney's political
:43:36. > :43:42.career. You have to take a step back and say, for Newsnight viewers,
:43:42. > :43:47.these aren't exactly debates in the spirit we know them, they are
:43:47. > :43:55.staged. Here are the commentators talking about having to watch with
:43:55. > :44:00.reptile brain, people not listening out for content or spotting policy,
:44:00. > :44:06.these are gaps and things to be talked over for years ahead. People
:44:06. > :44:13.remember the moment when depush senior glanced at his watch, just -
:44:13. > :44:18.- George Bush glanced at his watch, when they had gone to see an
:44:18. > :44:21.unemployed woman. That showed the difference between an engaged
:44:21. > :44:24.Democrat politician, and someone aloof as if he didn't have time for
:44:25. > :44:29.it. Those things are important to watch. Really, when you talk to
:44:29. > :44:35.people, eight out of ten of them said they have already decideded,
:44:35. > :44:40.they know which candidate they are backing, and they don't. Sorry.
:44:40. > :44:45.that case, what does Mitt Romney have to do to rescue things?
:44:45. > :44:51.sense is, if he does badly it is all over. If does OK, it is
:44:51. > :44:55.probably still all over too. He has to come out, reemerged and
:44:55. > :44:59.reenergised. In that unfortunate phrase of his wife, he has to come
:44:59. > :45:03.out unzipped. He has to be more specific, he has a 59-point plan
:45:03. > :45:06.for the economy and another five- point plan, yet no-one understands
:45:06. > :45:10.what he would do. He has talked about being anti-Government, and
:45:10. > :45:13.brought in Paul Ryan, yet there is very little mention about moving
:45:14. > :45:18.away from we are welfare and Government dependency, when he was
:45:18. > :45:24.talking in the Florida convention. Has to put the specter of the two
:45:24. > :45:28.numbers to rest, 47% and 14%. Why did I pick those out? Because 47%
:45:29. > :45:36.is in the tape, the number of voters who would never vote for
:45:36. > :45:41.them. 14% is the amount of tax he pays, it isn't a lot at the moment,
:45:41. > :45:51.but it isn't very presidential. He needs to make people want him.
:45:51. > :46:19.
:46:19. > :46:29.That's all from Newsnight tonight, I will be back tomorrow, until then
:46:29. > :46:30.
:46:30. > :46:34.good night. Hello, it will be a cold night
:46:34. > :46:38.tonight, close to a frost in many rural areas. We start bright and
:46:38. > :46:42.sunny for the most part in the morning. A scattering of showers
:46:42. > :46:47.near the west coast, a few wandering inland during the day.
:46:47. > :46:50.Very hit and miss, not as dry. Not as wet in northern England as it
:46:50. > :46:55.has been today. Light showers in the afternoon. A God chance of
:46:55. > :46:58.staying dry, showers not amounting to much in the Midlands, or East
:46:58. > :47:03.Anglia, south-east should be dry. With the winds lighter not so cold
:47:03. > :47:07.in the afternoon. The cloud increasing and the sunshine turning
:47:07. > :47:12.hazy in the afternoon. Not that many showers, most in the morning,
:47:12. > :47:15.a few may linger around the Bristol Channel, and possibly across Wales
:47:15. > :47:19.as well. This should be some sunshine too. The showers arriving
:47:19. > :47:23.in Northern Ireland could be sharp, but they are late in the afternoon,
:47:23. > :47:33.really, a scattering of showers in Scotland, some sunshine as well.
:47:33. > :47:45.