:00:12. > :00:17.Tonight, the thousands of families forced by councils to live in tiny
:00:17. > :00:27.rooms in squalid Bed & Breakfasts. Where do you play? Just on the bed.
:00:27. > :00:27.
:00:27. > :00:31.Just on the bed. Nobody else. do you eat? On the bed. The bed.
:00:31. > :00:36.Where do you do homework? On the bed. It is obviously unsuitable,
:00:36. > :00:40.but is it lawful, and how much are tax-payers forking out for it? The
:00:40. > :00:45.minister is here to explain. The Spanish Government insists
:00:45. > :00:48.again that it does need a bail out, but with Catlonian politicians
:00:48. > :00:55.Koreaning towards independence, is the deficit about to become the
:00:55. > :01:02.least of its problems. If the legal process doesn't produce good enough,
:01:02. > :01:09.we won't stop. You will have a referendum? It could be impossible
:01:09. > :01:12.to avoid it. Protesters outside Turkish parliament, as there is a
:01:12. > :01:15.green light towards operations against Syria. Are they right to
:01:15. > :01:22.fear armed conflict against their neighbour. We talk to the Turkish
:01:22. > :01:30.capacity. The Conservative MP, Cheryl Gillan
:01:30. > :01:38.says the fiasco with the railways means it is time to put a stop to
:01:38. > :01:42.HS2. Can we turn our talk into verse too.
:01:42. > :01:44.Good evening, we begin tonight with an indictment of modern Britain. A
:01:44. > :01:49.Newsnight investigation has discovered that thousands of
:01:49. > :01:52.families who have lost their homes, are being forced to live in squalid
:01:53. > :01:57.and overcrowded accommodation for unlawfully long periods. Homeless
:01:57. > :02:00.families are being housed in single rooms in Bed & Breakfast hotels,
:02:00. > :02:03.that are often sub-standard and sometimes dangerous. They are being
:02:03. > :02:11.forced to stay there for well over six weeks, breaching Government
:02:11. > :02:17.guidelines. It promises a warm English welcome,
:02:17. > :02:21.part of the sprawling hotel complex on the edge of Croydon takes
:02:21. > :02:24.genuine tourists. But part takes people who would rather be almost
:02:24. > :02:28.anywhere else. It has been horrendous. The
:02:28. > :02:33.children have no space to move, loads of noise going on. You are
:02:34. > :02:39.being watched all the time what you are doing. Inside parts of the
:02:39. > :02:44.hotel are damp, dingey and in urgent need of repair. But
:02:44. > :02:51.residents can't choose where they live.
:02:51. > :02:55.Because many, like Aneta Lloyd, have lost their homes. Sit down,
:02:55. > :02:59.tough eat some chicken. Thank you mummy. She and her two
:03:00. > :03:05.daughters have been housed here by Croydon Council in a room barely
:03:05. > :03:09.bigger than the two beds it contains. Careful you don't drop it.
:03:09. > :03:14.Their placement is supposed to be temporary, after she was evicteded
:03:14. > :03:18.from her own flat for rent arrears. This is already their seventh week
:03:18. > :03:23.in the hotel. Hardly any room to keep anything?
:03:23. > :03:27.No room at all. This is the space we have. There is no bath? There is
:03:27. > :03:36.no bath, it is just a small shower. There is no real kitchen at all.
:03:36. > :03:41.Where do you find to play? Just on the bed. Just on the bed? M-hmmm.
:03:41. > :03:46.Nothing else. Where do you eat? the bed. The bed. Where do you do
:03:46. > :03:49.your homework? On the bed. My children have always been happy,
:03:49. > :03:54.as soon as we arrived on the premises, I just see a miserable
:03:54. > :04:00.child, a child that wants to literally leave the hotel. She's
:04:00. > :04:04.even told my family that if I take her back to this hotel she will run
:04:04. > :04:09.away. For a seven-year-old child to be saying something like that to
:04:09. > :04:13.her grandparents, it is quite heart-breaking. Compared to many
:04:13. > :04:17.homeless families in temporary housing, they are lucky to have
:04:17. > :04:20.their own toilet and kitchen area. Behind windows like this across
:04:20. > :04:26.Britain, more and more children live in even worse conditions, as
:04:26. > :04:31.the recession bites, rents rise, and social housing stocks diminish.
:04:31. > :04:35.The number of homeless families in B&B accommodation. Which includes
:04:35. > :04:42.only those using communal facilities, rose by almost half,
:04:42. > :04:49.between the first quarter of 2011 and the same period this year, from
:04:49. > :04:53.2,750 to 3,960. Croydon, like all councils, has to
:04:53. > :04:57.provide emergency housing for the homeless. By law, families
:04:57. > :05:03.shouldn't be put into B&Bs for more than six weeks. But in Croydon, and
:05:03. > :05:06.other council areas, the law is being broken.
:05:06. > :05:11.Newsnight's discovered that an ever growing number of homeless families
:05:11. > :05:17.are being housed unlawfully and in misery in Bed & Breakfast
:05:17. > :05:22.accommodation like this, at huge cost to the public purse, for
:05:22. > :05:26.considerable profit for some lucky landlords. On-line accounts
:05:26. > :05:33.published by Croydon Council should it made payments totalling �1,5
:05:33. > :05:37.million in the first seven months of this year, to one B&B provider
:05:37. > :05:41.alone, EuroHotels, which owns this complex. Inside many families have
:05:41. > :05:45.been languishing for more than six week. It is administrative law, all
:05:45. > :05:48.the time we are looking at changing the law. Now this housing lawyer is
:05:48. > :05:52.threatening to take the council to court, to force them to move it
:05:52. > :05:55.somewhere else. The law provides that where you are in Bed &
:05:55. > :05:58.Breakfast accommodation, as a homeless applicant, and you have
:05:58. > :06:02.children residing with you, or you are pregnant, or someone in your
:06:02. > :06:05.household is pregnant, then the council should not provide you with
:06:05. > :06:09.bread and breakfast type accommodation, unless it is
:06:09. > :06:15.exceptional circumstances. Even then, for a maximum period of six
:06:15. > :06:18.week, the minute Croydon Council puts someone in Bed & Breakfast
:06:18. > :06:28.accommodation and are no sir positively looking for alternative
:06:28. > :06:31.accommodation for them, they are acting unlawfully. Nicola and her
:06:31. > :06:36.children have been living in another part of the same hotel for
:06:36. > :06:41.more than seven months. Sharing a hall and kitchen with
:06:41. > :06:45.five other households, comprising of 14 other people. There is three
:06:45. > :06:49.in this room, there is three in this room, three in this room,
:06:49. > :06:54.there is nine downstairs, upstairs there is three in the room this
:06:54. > :06:58.side above us, three in the room this side above us, and two in that
:06:58. > :07:04.side. Sorry about the mess. The hall is
:07:04. > :07:10.the only place to run around. The hotel rules prohibit children from
:07:10. > :07:13.playing in corridors or staircases. It is also prohibited to have any
:07:13. > :07:20.visitors without management authorisation, to use the kitchen
:07:20. > :07:24.after 10.00pm, or to wear pyjamas or a dressing gown in communal
:07:24. > :07:28.areas, making it very hard to go to the loo at night. But the
:07:28. > :07:32.conditions aren't just inhuman, Newsnight invited an independent
:07:32. > :07:38.Environmental Health Officer to check out complaints that they are
:07:38. > :07:43.also unsafe and possibly unlawful. How many people would share the
:07:43. > :07:47.kitschen? 17 of us all together. 17 people share this one kitchen.
:07:47. > :07:52.There is one sink. Any time you run the sink it pours out through the
:07:52. > :07:57.bottom. I can see the floor is very damp. It is soaking. I understand
:07:57. > :08:02.you have problems with rodent infestation. It is either rats or
:08:02. > :08:07.mice, we just find dropings. yeah.
:08:07. > :08:10.Yep. I can see some dropings there. You have an infestation of some
:08:10. > :08:16.form or another. That is in the bedroom as well. This window seems
:08:16. > :08:23.to be difficult to get hold of. doesn't close, it only closes that
:08:23. > :08:29.much. It doesn't close. In April, May, we had a break-in, two hooded
:08:29. > :08:34.men got into the house through this window at 2.00am. We have been told
:08:34. > :08:38.it is going to be fixed, that was in April/May, we still haven't had
:08:38. > :08:43.it fixed, it is still like this. You reported this in May, and
:08:43. > :08:47.nothing has been done since. Accommodation like this is not
:08:47. > :08:52.suitable for families, certainly with little children, they
:08:52. > :08:56.shouldn't be here. We have looked at the electrics, the heating, the
:08:56. > :09:01.fire precautions, we have looked at the facilities that these people
:09:01. > :09:06.have, they are totally inadequate. What does the law have to say about
:09:06. > :09:12.this situation? Well, there are issues here, which is in breach of
:09:12. > :09:15.the law. The sad part about it is, the local authority are putting
:09:15. > :09:19.families into property which potentially is dangerous.
:09:19. > :09:26.And against the law? And against the law.
:09:26. > :09:32.Yet, for Nicola's room, the owner of Gilroy Court Hotel, gets about
:09:32. > :09:42.�850 a month. His company told us, in a statement,
:09:42. > :09:48.
:09:48. > :09:52.The relevant authority is Croydon Council. How often do you inspect?
:09:52. > :09:58.It depends on the premises, but certainly we would be in once a
:09:58. > :10:02.month. Gilroy Court, one of the premises you looked at, we have
:10:02. > :10:06.someone in there once a week. have talked to a few residents
:10:06. > :10:10.there who say they have never seen an inspector or Environmental
:10:10. > :10:15.Health Officer? I can tell you for certain Environmental Health
:10:15. > :10:19.Officers do go in there from my housing enforcement team. We talked
:10:19. > :10:24.to lawyers who say Croydon is acting unlawfully because it has no
:10:25. > :10:29.system for finding alternatives for families. We would completely
:10:29. > :10:33.reject that accusation. We are particularly concerned to see if we
:10:33. > :10:37.can identify alternatives for those individual households, if we can't
:10:37. > :10:41.source the alternative, clearly we can't move on that family. But it
:10:41. > :10:45.is still our absolute intent and commitment, and we are working as
:10:45. > :10:48.hard as we can to get those families out of that Bed &
:10:48. > :10:55.Breakfast accommodation as quickly as we possibly can. But Croydon is
:10:55. > :10:59.failing. More than 70% of the families in B&Bs here, 180 in total,
:10:59. > :11:04.have been there more than six weeks. Last year, none were recorded in
:11:04. > :11:08.that category. The council is coping particularly
:11:08. > :11:13.badly in the perfect storm that is affecting housing right across
:11:13. > :11:17.Britain. Social housing stocks are falling, mortgages are harder to
:11:17. > :11:23.obtain, the private rented sector is getting ever-more expensive, and
:11:23. > :11:27.housing benefit is being cut. The introduction of the caps on the
:11:27. > :11:31.local housing allowance rates means that, inevitably, there is less
:11:31. > :11:34.private rent stock available to people on benefits. The second
:11:34. > :11:37.problem is that people who would have moved on, from the private
:11:37. > :11:42.rental sectors to buy their own home, haven't done so. It is
:11:42. > :11:47.getting worse and worse, and there was no positive news that comes out
:11:48. > :11:50.of this, there is going to be more homeless families, there will be
:11:50. > :11:54.more demand for temporary accommodation, and there will be
:11:54. > :12:01.more pressure on local authorities to find that in the private sector,
:12:01. > :12:05.quite where, we are not sure. Nicola's now off Croydon's books.
:12:05. > :12:09.don't have a house, what will I do with a bike. A few days ago she was
:12:09. > :12:13.forced to leave her room, because the council finally judged it was
:12:13. > :12:18.her own fault she was homeless. haven't told my daughter anything.
:12:18. > :12:22.She's only four, my son is worrying. He doesn't know where he's going
:12:22. > :12:28.after school, so, it's not nice for him. Even the doctor says it is
:12:28. > :12:33.inappropriate as an environment? Yes. Meanwhile, Aneta is begging
:12:33. > :12:37.the council to move her. The doctor says her daughter can't have the
:12:37. > :12:41.facial surgery she needs while living in these conditions. A child
:12:42. > :12:46.after serious plastic surgery should be having her own space to
:12:46. > :12:52.recover in, hygienic space, you know, where it is clean, quiet, and
:12:52. > :12:57.where I know she's safe. In this state she's very vulnerable.
:12:57. > :13:02.When you finish you take your medicine. For now, though, her
:13:02. > :13:09.pleas are in vain, for Aneta's family and many others like them,
:13:09. > :13:15.there is nowhere else to go. With me in the studio to discuss
:13:15. > :13:20.this, are the newly-appointed housing minister, Done Foster, and
:13:20. > :13:27.Ken Jones, director of housing strategy for Dagenham and barking.
:13:27. > :13:31.What do you say to to Nicola and Aneta? It is horrific the
:13:31. > :13:33.conditions they are in. Very pleasingly we can say, the number
:13:33. > :13:37.of families can with children in accommodation like that, for more
:13:38. > :13:45.than six weeks, is actually lower than it has been for a very long
:13:45. > :13:50.time. How many is it? It is about 760 families. That is far too many.
:13:50. > :13:52.The point was made on the film, this was doubly illegal by Croydon,
:13:52. > :13:55.illegal bows they have people in Bed & Breakfast for more than six
:13:55. > :14:00.weeks, and secondly, illegal because they have people in
:14:00. > :14:03.property that is clearly unacceptable, at a time when we are
:14:03. > :14:06.giving Croydon �1 million a year to deal with homelessness, and a
:14:06. > :14:09.further three quarters of a million it deal with the changes in
:14:09. > :14:13.benefits. You have now seen this, what will you do tomorrow morning?
:14:13. > :14:16.The first thing we are already doing, we know there are about 20
:14:16. > :14:23.council, that is all, across the country, where the situation is
:14:24. > :14:27.like that. We have already been in touch with all of those, we are
:14:27. > :14:31.working with them. When you have been in touch with Croydon, now you
:14:31. > :14:34.have seen the evidence for yourself, what was Croydon's defence? We were
:14:34. > :14:39.already aware of the problems in Croydon, that is why officials are
:14:39. > :14:43.already working with them, that is why we have written to them to to
:14:43. > :14:49.their attention their illegality. What is worse, to have 17 people
:14:49. > :14:53.use one kitchen with one sink with rodents, or worse for that woman,
:14:53. > :14:58.Aneta, to have two children, living, essentially, on a double bed?
:14:58. > :15:02.Neither is acceptable. They are living in unacceptable conditions,
:15:02. > :15:06.it is also wrong that they are in Bed & Breakfast. That is why we are
:15:06. > :15:09.providing the funds to the council, so that they can deal with those
:15:09. > :15:15.issues. What is the recourse, what is the penalty for the council, I
:15:15. > :15:19.will bring in Ken Jones in a minute, his council is also an offender?
:15:19. > :15:23.you heard on the film, agencies like the housing agency referred to
:15:23. > :15:25.in the film, can bring a prosecution against the council.
:15:25. > :15:30.But it is not something that Government can prosecute, it has to
:15:30. > :15:36.be either the individual families, or agents acting on their behalf.
:15:36. > :15:39.So, it is sound and fury signifying nothing, you can't do anything?
:15:39. > :15:45.are giving them the money. We have put the law in place that makes it
:15:45. > :15:51.quite clear that this is not only unacceptable, it is illegal.
:15:51. > :15:58.Jones, �1.5 million of given, by their own figures, to eurohotel, by
:15:58. > :16:03.Croydon, in the first half of this year, �1.5 million. Dagenham is a
:16:03. > :16:06.bad offender, Westminster and Brent are the worst offenders, you have
:16:06. > :16:10.people in housing accommodation over six weeks with children as
:16:10. > :16:17.well, it is shameful? It is shameful. What are you doing about
:16:17. > :16:21.it? As much as we can. I should say two years ago we had exactly no
:16:21. > :16:27.households in Bed & Breakfast. Today we have, as you say, 83
:16:27. > :16:32.families, over six weeks. Tell me about the rent. What we are talking
:16:32. > :16:35.about as an exponential rise in the private rental market, because
:16:35. > :16:40.there is not as much housing market. What are you paying for families a
:16:40. > :16:46.week, what is the highest you are paying for a week for a family in a
:16:46. > :16:53.room? It is around about �400 a week. That is �400, that surely
:16:53. > :16:56.can't make sense, done Foster? first thing is. That is tax-payers'
:16:56. > :16:59.money going? We are already using tax-payers' money to provide the
:16:59. > :17:03.support to these councils to ensure this doesn't happen. The other
:17:03. > :17:07.thing we have to do, this is where I think, in fairness, we have to
:17:07. > :17:11.accept, that we need to get more houses, more affordable houses
:17:11. > :17:14.built, and that is why we have also got very significant house building
:17:14. > :17:17.programmes. Right now you have a cap on housing benefit, you are
:17:17. > :17:23.bringing in Universal Credit, there are going to be more families in
:17:23. > :17:29.the situation that will be worse, we already know from our adviser
:17:29. > :17:34.under Rick Pickle's arm, the whole thing will get worse. You have to
:17:34. > :17:39.take into account that housing benefit rose from �11 billion 20
:17:39. > :17:43.years ago to �20 billion this year and rising, we had to take action,
:17:43. > :17:47.recognising transitional difficulty. We have made �450 million available
:17:47. > :17:51.over the four-year period to help out with the difficulty. �450
:17:51. > :17:56.million, will it get worse, is that enough money? We are facing, as it
:17:56. > :18:00.mentioned in the film, a perfect storm, there is inadequate house
:18:00. > :18:03.building, particularly council housing and housing association
:18:03. > :18:06.property. We are also seeing enormous demographic changes,
:18:06. > :18:11.particularly acute in London, I would say. What I think does need
:18:11. > :18:15.to happen, and certainly in barking and Dagenham, we are pursuing a
:18:15. > :18:24.very major council house building programme, that's going to help.
:18:24. > :18:28.But certainly I think. Tell Don Foster what he has to do, he's the
:18:28. > :18:32.new minister? In the perfect storm we are facing and families are
:18:32. > :18:35.facing, the twist to it will be the welfare reform and the cap. I hope
:18:35. > :18:39.the Government might just look at regional variations to recognise
:18:39. > :18:43.the pressures that London faces, because families that you showed in
:18:43. > :18:47.the film, there are going to be more of those, unfortunately.
:18:47. > :18:50.will be more of those, this is the evidence from one of the offending
:18:50. > :18:54.councils? It is an offending council, as I keep repeating, we
:18:54. > :18:58.are providing funds to help. But I accept entirely the point, we also
:18:58. > :19:02.need to have more homes built, and that is one of the key things that
:19:02. > :19:06.we are doing. More homes built will not solve the problem in the next
:19:06. > :19:10.six months, and in the next six months, as the benefit changes come
:19:10. > :19:16.in, will get worse. Let me put to you briefly? We are making money
:19:16. > :19:20.available during that period. For a four-year period, �450 million to
:19:20. > :19:25.help with the specific problem of the changes in housing benefit.
:19:25. > :19:34.you think it is acceptable for Croydon to be paying �1.5 million,
:19:34. > :19:38.in the first six months of the year, for that kind of accommodation?
:19:38. > :19:42.To EuroHotels? Yes. They should stop paying it now? The power is in
:19:42. > :19:47.the hands of the council, we are giving them �1 million this year to
:19:47. > :19:51.deal with those sorts of problems. I just have to have a very quick
:19:51. > :19:56.question, let me tell you quickly what happened to Aneta, she lost
:19:56. > :20:01.her home because of rent arrears, she missed her appointment with the
:20:01. > :20:05.DWP, they stopped her benefit straight away. Is that civil? Is
:20:05. > :20:10.that civilised? That is why we are providing the additional support to
:20:10. > :20:15.councils to help them with that transitional period. But you can't
:20:15. > :20:19.have a benefit cap that is risen from �11 billion to �20 billion. We
:20:19. > :20:24.have to address that. Thank you very much.
:20:24. > :20:27.It is the most serious test of the decentralised Spanish Government,
:20:27. > :20:32.as the country returned to democracy after Franco, Catalonia,
:20:32. > :20:37.one of the country's richest regions is having a serious bout of
:20:37. > :20:42.secessionist fever. This time it just might happen. Catalan
:20:42. > :20:47.nationalists, emboldened by the Madrid Government's refusal to give
:20:47. > :20:52.more money last month, has rash cheted up new members. They accuse
:20:52. > :20:58.parliament of fiscal looting, and have voted overwhelmingly for a
:20:58. > :21:05.referendum on leaving Spain. So Co This place really say adios to
:21:05. > :21:10.Spain! People are stale clietly reeling
:21:10. > :21:14.from the fact that the Finance Minister of Spain has gone to
:21:14. > :21:18.London tonight to make a speech in which he has claimed Spain doesn't
:21:18. > :21:22.need a bail out. Absolutely, all it needs is the European Central Bank
:21:22. > :21:26.to give them half a trillion euros, by buying their bonds. Everyone
:21:26. > :21:29.knows in politics here that bail out is about to come. We do need
:21:29. > :21:33.clarity on this, people are quite confused here on the streets of
:21:33. > :21:37.Barcelona and other Spanish cities, about what is about to come at them
:21:37. > :21:40.in terms of conditionality and in terms of the amount of sovereignty
:21:40. > :21:44.they lose when the IMF, and the machine in black, as they are
:21:44. > :21:47.called, take over the country's finances. That is the bit that
:21:47. > :21:51.everybody knows is out there, and the bit you can control. The bit
:21:51. > :21:57.you can't control is the way people feel about it.
:21:57. > :22:00.Tell me, very briefly, we have heard about Catalonia over the
:22:00. > :22:03.years and movements there, what is different this time? Two years ago,
:22:03. > :22:07.these are fountains behind me, I remember that very distinctly, the
:22:07. > :22:11.day Spain won the World Cup in 2010, people danced in them. To report it,
:22:11. > :22:16.one had to go in with them. People said, how are the Catalans ever
:22:16. > :22:21.going to feel bad about Spain again. I can tell you, as I have been
:22:21. > :22:25.finding out today, they feel pretty bad about it, and it is getting
:22:25. > :22:29.more intense. If Catalonia does, one day, get its own air force, it
:22:29. > :22:34.will probably be able to afford something better than these.
:22:34. > :22:38.On the beach, in Barcelona, the air show is a welcome distraction from
:22:38. > :22:42.the crisis. This, Spain's richest region, is
:22:42. > :22:48.now at the centre of the crisis, with Madrid committed to austerity,
:22:48. > :22:52.there is now a rising demand in Catalonia for independence.
:22:52. > :22:55.TRANSLATION: My feeling is that the Spanish Government has totally
:22:55. > :23:01.rejected what is happening here. They have spread rejection and hate,
:23:01. > :23:04.with comment calling us the "damn Catalan" that doesn't want to co-
:23:04. > :23:08.operate. TRANSLATION: Now a lot of people
:23:08. > :23:13.are not only feeling this in their heart, but pockets too. The feeling
:23:13. > :23:16.is they would be a lot better off if not a part of Spain. If we put
:23:16. > :23:22.the two feelings together, we are relatively close to reaching our
:23:22. > :23:27.goal, we are on the right path. For Catalonia, it is a path often
:23:27. > :23:32.dreamed of, but never taken. The regional Government here wants, at
:23:32. > :23:36.the very least, fiscal autonomy, they have called a snap election,
:23:36. > :23:40.and threatened to hold a referendum on independence. Could this iconic
:23:40. > :23:46.Spanish city, ever leave Spain? At the HQ of the ruling party, I
:23:46. > :23:52.have come to meet one of the men who will decide that. In Oriol
:23:52. > :23:59.Pujol is one of the leaders of the Convergence and Union Party that
:24:00. > :24:09.runs the region. It is the crisis and difficult moment in a rich land
:24:09. > :24:15.and nation like Catalonia, that our reporting of 9% of GDP every year
:24:15. > :24:19.to Spain, the result is not happy at all.
:24:19. > :24:24.Because it is a double catch in terms of social and educational and
:24:24. > :24:31.health services, double catch of the rest of rain, and double taxes.
:24:31. > :24:37.So, it's really unbalanced. We must solve that. If I don't solve that
:24:37. > :24:40.someone is going to solve that. More radical parties? Probably.
:24:40. > :24:45.Catalonia has a powerful hand to play. It's the industrial
:24:45. > :24:49.powerhouse, rich, a kind of Spanish Germany. Until now, nationalist
:24:49. > :24:54.politicians here have played that hand to get concessions from Madrid.
:24:54. > :24:58.But Madrid now can only offer austerity, and has repeatedly
:24:58. > :25:03.denied the region's attempts to gain more autonomy. Over the years
:25:03. > :25:11.a lot of decisions have been made in order to keep historical
:25:11. > :25:15.separation in powers in Madrid, with had political powers in Madrid
:25:15. > :25:21.but economic powers in Barcelona. There is an attempt to concentrate
:25:21. > :25:28.both powers in Madrid, that made the Catalan Governments act.
:25:28. > :25:32.they want a referendum, legal or otherwise. If the local position
:25:32. > :25:37.doesn't run good enough, we won't stop. You will have a referendum?
:25:37. > :25:45.It could be impossible to avoid it. If they ever do become a country,
:25:45. > :25:51.they will, of course, have no trouble forming a football team. At
:25:51. > :25:55.this soccer bar on Tuesday night, as their team trumped Benfica, the
:25:55. > :26:00.Barcelona fans were in no doubt as to what is changing. I believe
:26:00. > :26:06.absolutely in Catalan. In my passport, in my ID it says I'm
:26:06. > :26:09.Spanish, I'm not. TRANSLATION: or three years ago people would say
:26:09. > :26:12.the independence thing would not happen, don't expect too much or it
:26:12. > :26:18.to happen, now, after what has happened in the last month or
:26:18. > :26:21.month-and-a-half, it is amazing. In the rest of Spain, reactions to
:26:21. > :26:26.a Catalan independence referendum have been less joyous. In a press
:26:26. > :26:36.interview, Colonel Francisco Alman, a serving officer in the army made
:26:36. > :26:45.
:26:45. > :26:49.In Barcelona, they are trying to take attitudes like that in their
:26:49. > :26:56.stride. Politics of fear, not only the sentence of this person of the
:26:56. > :27:05.army, will appear, we know that. But, the process is so enthusiastic
:27:05. > :27:10.that any kind of fear probably shows how weak is Spain, and the
:27:10. > :27:14.Spanish politics in defending or trying to avoid the process in
:27:14. > :27:18.Catalonia. The economic impact of Catlonian independence is disputed,
:27:18. > :27:22.it can be measured in facts and figures what cannot be measured is
:27:22. > :27:26.feeling. There is a huge wave of nationalist sentiment here. That
:27:26. > :27:30.has put formal support for independence up around 52%. But
:27:30. > :27:37.what nobody can know, is the point at which the wave becomes
:27:37. > :27:43.unstoppable. It is just a folk dance, but to
:27:43. > :27:46.Catalan, the Cidana, performed outside the Cathedral every Sunday
:27:46. > :27:49.has massive significance. Under Franco people died for the right to
:27:49. > :27:53.speak their own language, sing their own folk songs, there are
:27:53. > :27:57.layers of history at stake here. TRANSLATION: Madrid is doing what
:27:57. > :28:01.they always did, criticise us. And that is why we are saying enough,
:28:01. > :28:10.we don't want their help, because we don't get any real help from
:28:10. > :28:13.them. Therefore, I believe we are better off on our own. Up to now,
:28:13. > :28:17.the cultural freedom symbolised here, has been enough to contain
:28:17. > :28:27.demands for independent, but the crisis changes everything. We still
:28:27. > :28:31.don't know where the crisis ends. The go ahead for a foreign invasion
:28:32. > :28:35.into Syria was authorised today, not by NATO or the UN, but by
:28:35. > :28:38.Syria's neighbour, Turkey, insisting it wasn't an act of war,
:28:38. > :28:43.the Turkish parliament gave authority for a ground invasion by
:28:43. > :28:48.troops in response to attacks by Syria against the border town, it
:28:48. > :28:51.killed five people, three children, and wounded nine others. Turkey had
:28:51. > :28:55.already retaliated and shelled back across the border, killing several
:28:55. > :29:00.Syrian soldiers. Only after that did Damascus take responsibility
:29:00. > :29:05.for the attack and apologise. Our diplomatic editor is with me.
:29:05. > :29:09.First of all, tell me the seriousness of the Turkish
:29:09. > :29:13.situation here? I think it is serious, and what's happened today
:29:13. > :29:17.with this parliamentary vote makes Turkish military operations in
:29:17. > :29:21.Syria a very real possibility in the near future. I think in two
:29:21. > :29:25.main contexts. The first, is the Kurdish area in the north-east of
:29:25. > :29:29.Syria, in which the Syrian Government has, more or less,
:29:29. > :29:32.deliberately withdrawn its authority, and is now seen by the
:29:32. > :29:36.Turkish Government as a haven for anti-Turkish guerrilla groups. The
:29:36. > :29:42.other, of course, is the area very much under contest between the
:29:42. > :29:48.rebels and the Syrian forces, around Aleppo and Idlib, the big
:29:48. > :29:58.cities in the north of Syria. If we look on the map, we can see the
:29:58. > :30:01.
:30:01. > :30:05.importance of Akakale and other towns. The Syrian battles are meant
:30:05. > :30:11.to be. It can be seen as support to the Free Syrian Army and other
:30:11. > :30:15.groups in the north through that tactic. Some people speculated
:30:15. > :30:22.today through Healey bourne raids by commandos and that kind of thing.
:30:22. > :30:26.To what extent have the Syrians been trying to provoke this sort of
:30:26. > :30:29.thing? It could be argued they are provoking, they have foreign groups
:30:29. > :30:34.with armed groups openly supported by the Government F you look at how
:30:34. > :30:37.NATO deals with that in a Pakistani context, it is not always to
:30:37. > :30:42.respect the Pakistani frontier. However, there is a view in the
:30:42. > :30:46.region, that Syria would like to internationalise the conflict.
:30:46. > :30:52.Certain things, like withdrawing authority in that Kurdish area have
:30:52. > :30:57.been deliberate provocations, people point to the shooting down
:30:57. > :31:00.of a Turkish phantom jet as another provocation. Today when the Syrian
:31:00. > :31:06.Government did apologise, it didn't seem to be an apology to the
:31:06. > :31:10.Government, in particular, of Turkey, as we heard at the UN.
:31:10. > :31:14.Deepest condolences of the Government of Syria-Arab Republican
:31:14. > :31:21.lick were presented, to the families of the martyrs and
:31:21. > :31:25.friendly and brotherly people of Turkey. In cases of border
:31:25. > :31:34.incidents, that had been between any two neighbouring countries,
:31:34. > :31:40.state and Governments, should act wisely, rationally and responsibly.
:31:40. > :31:44.So, what do you think the potential for further flare ups on the border
:31:44. > :31:48.are? It is considerable. We saw a situation a few years ago where
:31:48. > :31:51.Turkey mounted operations in northern Iraq, for example, when
:31:51. > :31:55.they felt Kurdish insurgent groups were getting out of hand there.
:31:55. > :32:00.This type of thing could easily happen. The question is whether
:32:00. > :32:05.Syria's allies, like Iran, would take some form of counter action,
:32:05. > :32:09.if Turkey did do that sort of thing, something they have threatened to
:32:09. > :32:17.do before. We have the Turkish ambassador with
:32:17. > :32:21.us. Syria has apologised. Not a declaration of war, if there is
:32:21. > :32:26.another mortar attack, would you retaliate? Tonight the UN has
:32:26. > :32:31.issued a statement condemning the mortar attacks. If there is another
:32:31. > :32:34.mortar attack, if there is another provocation, would Turkey respond?
:32:34. > :32:39.Retaliation is a legitimate right in international law, Turkey has
:32:39. > :32:43.resort today that right. I think Turkey has already made it clear,
:32:43. > :32:47.as early as the 26th of June, when the Turkish aircraft was shot by
:32:47. > :32:50.the Syrian authority, that the rules of engagment, and the
:32:50. > :32:54.understanding of Syrian attitudes towards Turkey had changed. This
:32:54. > :32:57.means, of course, whenever we receive a hostile attitude from the
:32:57. > :33:00.Syrian side, we will respond. What has happened yesterday was that
:33:00. > :33:03.kind of retaliation. You would, if you were attacked again, you would
:33:03. > :33:07.respond, that is what the meaning of this motion in parliament is?
:33:07. > :33:11.The meaning of this motion in the parliament is the Government has
:33:11. > :33:16.taken the authority from the legislative authority, from the
:33:16. > :33:20.parliament, to use it whenever it deems it necessary. I don't think
:33:20. > :33:23.that it is currentlinessry, but it is important for the Government --
:33:23. > :33:27.it is currently necessary, but it is important for the Government as
:33:27. > :33:32.a guarantee or possibility to use it when they see it is necessary to
:33:32. > :33:37.use. Turkey is now a member of NATO, is this not NATO's role, is this
:33:37. > :33:43.not what NATO should be doing? NATO did yesterday is quite
:33:43. > :33:47.encouraging. We have only reed to Article 4, we have initiated the
:33:47. > :33:51.consultation mechanism, according to the Article 4 of the Washington
:33:51. > :33:57.Treaty. And NATO has shown full solidarity and support with Turkey.
:33:57. > :34:00.That is very important, that is very encouraging. What is important
:34:00. > :34:04.here is the international community has to show it is together with
:34:04. > :34:09.Turkey. Because the acrossive side is Syria. Let's look at the area
:34:09. > :34:13.along the border, obviously there was a tragic death today, including
:34:13. > :34:20.three young children. Lisence haden to go Turkish people talking today,
:34:21. > :34:24.they faelt along the border it has been incredibly dangerous, and they
:34:24. > :34:29.have been traumatised by what is going on. You and they want a safe
:34:29. > :34:34.zone. How would that operate, NATO peacekeepers? Do you want something
:34:34. > :34:39.formal put in along the border? this stage one has to rely on the
:34:39. > :34:44.capability of Turkey to protect its own citizens and borders. Turkey,
:34:44. > :34:48.certainly, whenever the national sovereignty is violated, whenever
:34:48. > :34:51.the territory is violate, they have the right to retaliate, it will
:34:51. > :34:56.retaliate again. It is going to retaliate again, what about putting
:34:56. > :35:00.boots on the ground, will Turkish soldiers go across the border for
:35:00. > :35:04.Syria? Turkey is not preparing or declaring war. Without declaring
:35:04. > :35:08.the war you have the possibility of proebgttebgting your own citizens,
:35:08. > :35:12.and you have -- protecting your own citizens, this is legislature. I
:35:12. > :35:16.think the citizens who are concerned about the possibility of
:35:16. > :35:21.war, are simply exaggerating the situation. The Prime Minister has
:35:21. > :35:23.made it very clear that Turkey is not preparing for war. But the
:35:23. > :35:30.motion authorised cross-border intervention in Syria for the next
:35:30. > :35:34.year, if needed. This is another warning shot across their boughs?
:35:34. > :35:39.This has been a regular practice, whenever Turkey needs to do this
:35:39. > :35:42.kind of thing, and the security is in danger, this allows the
:35:42. > :35:46.Government to make use of this kind of emotion. If you do not have it
:35:46. > :35:49.at hand, and if you do not get this authority from the parliament, it
:35:49. > :35:53.is very difficult for the Government. How concerned are you
:35:53. > :35:57.that the whole area now is unstable. Kofi Annan was talking to Newsnight
:35:57. > :36:00.yesterday about that. Turkey, Jordan, the possibility of
:36:00. > :36:04.Jihadists coming from Iraq. The inflaming of the area, how
:36:04. > :36:09.concerned are you about that? are concerned, of course, because
:36:09. > :36:13.it has shown, the incident yesterday, has shown there is a
:36:13. > :36:18.systemic development in the area there is continuous provocation,
:36:18. > :36:22.and there is a spill-every effect and it is growing. One has to show
:36:22. > :36:27.-- spill-over effect and it is growing. Everyone has to show
:36:27. > :36:31.restraint, and the international community has to be convinced that
:36:31. > :36:36.Syria and Turkey are careful with everyone. We have our own very
:36:36. > :36:42.personal poet celebrating International Poetry Day, and
:36:42. > :36:46.pening an ode to Newsnight, news of the day. Could the fiasco over the
:36:46. > :36:50.West Coast Main Line about to give the Government not a headache but
:36:50. > :36:54.an almighty migraine. Cheryl Gillan has written to the Transport
:36:54. > :36:58.Secretary to demand a root and branch review of the plans for the
:36:58. > :37:01.high-speed rail link, the HS2, in the wake of the debacle over the
:37:01. > :37:11.franchise for the West Coast Main Line. We will talk to her in a
:37:11. > :37:17.minute. First, why questions are now being asked about HS2.
:37:17. > :37:20.At a final cost of �30 billion, high-speed 2 is set to be one of
:37:20. > :37:25.the biggest infrastructural endeavours since the London
:37:25. > :37:31.Underground. Phase one, costing �17 billion, will see a high-speed
:37:31. > :37:35.track from London to Birmingham, due to be finished by 2026, cutting
:37:35. > :37:40.journey times between the two largest cities, to 46 minutes.
:37:40. > :37:45.Phase 2 will cost �30 billion, building lines to Manchester and
:37:45. > :37:53.Leeds, the entire project will be complete by 2033. But yesterday's
:37:53. > :37:59.west coast franchise -- West Coast franchise debacle could jeopardise
:37:59. > :38:03.HS2. A judicial review has been secured into the proposals,
:38:03. > :38:07.tomorrow is the deadline for submissions. They will ask the High
:38:07. > :38:11.Court to take account of the rail fail, when it hears the HS2 case in
:38:11. > :38:18.December. As of last night, Government ministers, in defending
:38:18. > :38:23.the HS2 process, were using language remarkably redolent of two
:38:23. > :38:28.weeks ago. It has been looked at time and time again by, not just
:38:28. > :38:34.the Department of Transport, but HS2 itself. The business lobby for
:38:34. > :38:41.building HS2, is a bit worried that they say will the project, they say
:38:41. > :38:45.will yield �2.50 for every �1.50 vests, will be delayed. The rail
:38:45. > :38:49.franchise procurement has been a shambles. If they don't think we
:38:49. > :38:53.should do HS2 because of t we should stop, as a country, to
:38:53. > :38:57.deliver any projects because we can't procure. I'm not that
:38:57. > :39:00.defeatist. We would never have built the railways if we took this
:39:01. > :39:04.attitude in the Victorian age. maybe the courts, rather than
:39:04. > :39:08.public opinion or the Government, which ends up deciding the fate of
:39:08. > :39:11.some of the most important pieces of infrastructure in England.
:39:11. > :39:16.Cheryl Gillan was a member of the cabinet until she was sacked last
:39:16. > :39:20.month, she's with me now. It gives you great freedom now You have
:39:20. > :39:27.always been against the high-speed rail line, what makes an absolute
:39:27. > :39:31.difference because of the fiasco of the West Coast Main Line. When
:39:31. > :39:36.Labour announced it I was against it, it is good to be speaking out
:39:36. > :39:39.against it, now I'm no longer bound by cabinet responsibility. The
:39:39. > :39:41.thing is there is something very wrong at the Department of
:39:41. > :39:44.Transport, we have had three secretaries of state, and now we
:39:44. > :39:50.have this announcement, by the department, that there has been
:39:50. > :39:53.fundamental flaws in the franchise which refers to the passenger
:39:53. > :39:58.numbers on West Coast Main Line. Also the inflation figures, both of
:39:58. > :40:02.which are elements of HS2. Tomorrow is the final deadline for the
:40:02. > :40:07.judicial review that has been granted into HS2. There is a whole
:40:07. > :40:11.lot of things, environmental, costing and compensation, for
:40:11. > :40:14.whatever land it goes through. Would you like to see the whole
:40:14. > :40:17.issue of the West Coast Main Line issues being brought into the
:40:17. > :40:22.review? It is important it is considered. Obviously the business
:40:22. > :40:25.case is predicated on those inflation figures, on the West
:40:25. > :40:31.Coast Main Line passenger figures. There have been so many mistakes
:40:31. > :40:36.made with HS2, we have had miscalculations on engineering
:40:36. > :40:41.works and come uing out of tunnels. We have ministers apologising, not
:40:41. > :40:45.just once, but twice for not taking in some of the responses to
:40:45. > :40:49.consultation. You talk about the rapid turnover in the department,
:40:49. > :40:53.is there a systemic problem in the department with ministers and civil
:40:53. > :40:57.servants? There must be, for a Secretary of State to announce two
:40:57. > :41:03.inquiries, and to publicly suspend three officials, that is an unusual
:41:03. > :41:07.state of affairs. It reads across directly into HS2. I want to make
:41:07. > :41:11.sure that we don't go into spending the largest amount of tax-payers'
:41:11. > :41:15.money on a peacetime project, without either getting it right or
:41:15. > :41:19.looking at the alternative. Whatever you say, it is the new age
:41:19. > :41:22.of the train, on the West Coast Main Line, Virgin have put up
:41:22. > :41:27.figures, not eerl as high as passengers first said would be
:41:27. > :41:30.taking to the trains, but we need more capacity in the trains?
:41:30. > :41:36.not arguing that we need some transport solutions, but what is
:41:36. > :41:39.the point in having a review, say, for example, of airports, the
:41:39. > :41:44.Davies Review, which is going ahead, without taking that into
:41:44. > :41:47.consideration before you start to spend more than �33 billion of tax-
:41:47. > :41:51.payers' money on a project that could turn out to be a white
:41:51. > :41:55.elephant. Now we have a delay in two thirds of the franchises up
:41:55. > :42:00.before the election for the railways, now hard-pressed civil
:42:00. > :42:04.servants will be engaged in the judicial review on HS2, are they up
:42:04. > :42:07.to it? Is the department up to it? That remains to be seen, I would
:42:07. > :42:11.like to have a look at the capacity and capablities of the department,
:42:11. > :42:16.I think that is really important. We should see what is going on, so
:42:16. > :42:19.those investigations are really important. Who does that? Who
:42:19. > :42:22.actually investigates the Department of Transport? They will
:42:22. > :42:28.be non-executive directors of the Department of Transport, that sit
:42:28. > :42:31.on the board conducting these reviews. I think Patrick McLoughlin,
:42:31. > :42:34.and the new Secretary of State, has been very upfront about the
:42:34. > :42:39.mistakes that have happened, he says there is fundamental flaws in
:42:39. > :42:43.the department. They are involved in the independent review, which
:42:43. > :42:47.begs the question of how independent it is, should it be
:42:47. > :42:49.something completely out of the Department of Transport, no mam
:42:49. > :42:55.non-executive director? We need to look at what the investigations are
:42:55. > :42:57.throwing up, we need not throw good after bad. We should halt the
:42:57. > :43:01.project and look at transport requirements in the round. Do you
:43:01. > :43:03.think, not only were you moved, lots of Department of Transport
:43:03. > :43:06.ministers were moved, do you think they were moved because this is
:43:07. > :43:10.coming up? I'm sure that wasn't the case, the boy of being the Prime
:43:10. > :43:12.Minister is you can hire and fire at will for your ministers. Thank
:43:12. > :43:22.you very much. Tomorrow morning's front pages now.
:43:22. > :43:23.
:43:23. > :44:08.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 46 seconds
:44:09. > :44:14.That's nearly all from us tonight. Before we go, today is National
:44:14. > :44:18.Poetry Day, Newsnight has recruited our own poet in residence, Luke
:44:18. > :44:22.Wright. He has hot-footed it over from a reading in the Southbank
:44:22. > :44:27.Centre, to turn the headlines into something less prosaic.
:44:27. > :44:31.Good night. Here it is, my Newsnight people.
:44:31. > :44:35."the day is done, it's time to rake the coals
:44:35. > :44:41.K you coming up dear? # I just watch this
:44:41. > :44:45.So the bold familiar music starts # The social problems stacking up
:44:45. > :44:47.# A foreign war Pictures like the last
:44:47. > :44:52.Another place you are disconnected from
:44:53. > :44:56.# Under TV light # The horns are locked
:44:56. > :45:01.The back and forth as comforting as tides
:45:01. > :45:06.At home you are swearing at the tele$$NEWLINE Or practising the
:45:06. > :45:12.lines you will use tomorrow Now Spain is starting to wonder
:45:12. > :45:18.Manage you think how far away are we from coups
:45:18. > :45:23.# The railways and Civil Service cock-up
:45:23. > :45:28.You watch the "he said she said" like EastEnders
:45:28. > :45:36.You wonder if it will mean the fares will rise
:45:36. > :45:40.You nod off and wave to Kirsty's You nod off and wave to Kirsty's
:45:40. > :45:44.brisk good night Wet and windy for many of us overnight, the rain
:45:44. > :45:49.getting chaseded away tomorrow morning, blustery across the south-
:45:49. > :45:53.east and East Anglia. The rain never too far away from the south.
:45:53. > :45:57.Sunny spells across north-east England. A few blustery showers
:45:57. > :46:01.across North West. Most of the day dry across the Midlands. After a
:46:01. > :46:06.damp start, dryer and brighter in East Anglia. The rain will push
:46:06. > :46:09.further north on the day. Another batch of potentially heavy rain
:46:09. > :46:13.across south-west England and Wales, through the late afternoon and
:46:13. > :46:17.early evening. With the heavy downpours tonight, and the extra
:46:17. > :46:20.rain could cause a few problems. Elsewhere generally a dry day, some
:46:20. > :46:24.bright spells, but a lot of cloud. Sunny spells in Northern Ireland,
:46:24. > :46:30.blustery showers here. The winds not as strong as today. Western
:46:31. > :46:37.Scotland, but there will be still a *ering of showers. As for the
:46:37. > :46:43.outlike, a few showers in the far north-east, but overall Saturday
:46:43. > :46:49.promises fine awe dumb weather. A chill and mist and fog patches but