:00:13. > :00:19.If all the allegations about Sir Jimmy Savile are true, he raped and
:00:19. > :00:22.sexually abused girls across the country for decades. At the BBC, in
:00:22. > :00:26.Children's Hospitals, at Broadmoor, yet he died with his reputation
:00:26. > :00:30.intact. On Newsnight tonight, why did the
:00:30. > :00:34.institutions that could have stopped him, failed to do so.
:00:34. > :00:37.In the studio, people who know the working of the BBC, the tabloids
:00:37. > :00:41.and children's charities. There is news tonight that seven Royal
:00:41. > :00:47.Marines have been arrested on suspicion of murder in Afghanistan.
:00:47. > :00:49.We will be here with the latest. They killed an insurgent on the
:00:49. > :00:59.battlefield, but the military police now believe they should face
:00:59. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :01:12.trial for it. Also tonight: It is a very simple question. What did you
:01:12. > :01:29.
:01:29. > :01:36.say. The question that dogs Andrew Sir James Wilson Vincent Savile, BE,
:01:36. > :01:40.KCSG. The first presenter of Top Of The Pops. For 20 years, the man who
:01:40. > :01:46.made children's dreams come true on Jim'll Fix It. A man believed to
:01:46. > :01:50.have raise personally raised �30- �40 million for charity. He was
:01:50. > :01:55.described as one of the most established showbiz figures and
:01:55. > :02:01.leading charity worker, when he died. The obituary in the Times saw
:02:01. > :02:07.him as an he can tent trick contributor to British life. He
:02:07. > :02:13.could never be pigeonholed, and some said he could be a saint. And
:02:13. > :02:16.an expression of sorrow from the Prince of Wales and others. No-one
:02:16. > :02:19.is saying that now. The flood of allegations about
:02:19. > :02:24.Jimmy Savile's behaviour is now engulfing some of the many
:02:24. > :02:30.institutions he was involved in. The NHS, the care system, and, of
:02:30. > :02:33.course, the BBC, including Newsnight. 13 police forces are now
:02:33. > :02:38.investigating multiple claims of the sexual abuse of children and
:02:38. > :02:41.teenager. Why weren't the victims given greater protection?
:02:41. > :02:47.At Stoke Mandeville hospital in Buckinghamshire, Jimmy Savile
:02:48. > :02:56.roamed at will. He was given a room, and welcomed as a celebrity
:02:56. > :03:03.fundraiser. Sprinkling Stardust and targeting young patients. I was
:03:03. > :03:08.quite taken that we had a popstar patient. Caroline was 13 at the
:03:08. > :03:12.time and being treated for spinal injuries. He bent down and he
:03:12. > :03:17.rammed, that was the only way I can describe it, he rammed his tongue
:03:17. > :03:24.right down my throat. I told my mum and dad, and I told people that I
:03:24. > :03:30.came into contact with. But, nothing. I don't even think my
:03:30. > :03:39.parents took it seriously. Because I was a 13-year-old girl. He was
:03:39. > :03:46.who he was. Or who he was suppose to have been. I don't think they
:03:46. > :03:50.necessarily believed, they never took it seriously. Jimmy Savile
:03:50. > :03:55.volunteered as a night porter at Leeds General Infirmary, sickness
:03:55. > :04:05.and disability were no protection for the patients he abused.
:04:05. > :04:05.
:04:05. > :04:09.started kissing her neck. Running his hands up and down her arms, and
:04:09. > :04:18.then started to molest her. When the nurse eventually came in,
:04:18. > :04:24.because I was hourly observation, I mentioned Jimmy Savile, pointed
:04:24. > :04:28.over to where he was. And I said, if he comes anywhere near me, I'll
:04:29. > :04:32.scream the place down, and yes I would have done. It's emerged that
:04:32. > :04:36.some nursing staff at stoke Mandeville, were aware of the
:04:36. > :04:42.Savile prob -- Stoke Mandeville, were aware of the Savile problem.
:04:42. > :04:45.The nurses weren't happy, they weren't at all enthused about his
:04:45. > :04:49.impending arrival. But there was an air of res in this case, something
:04:49. > :04:53.they had to put -- resignation, something they had to put up with.
:04:53. > :05:03.There was ironic chatter between them about who would be the lucky
:05:03. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:10.one to go off with him to his room. And one of them lent over my bed,
:05:10. > :05:13.and said the best thing you can do is stay in bed and pretend to be
:05:13. > :05:18.asleep. The two hospital trusts are helping the police establish how
:05:18. > :05:22.those in their care were let down. They are not alone. The care system
:05:22. > :05:26.designed to protect some of society's most disadvantaged young
:05:26. > :05:31.people is accused, once again, of failing them. Duncroft school in
:05:31. > :05:36.Surrey, is now a block of smart flats. As an approved school in the
:05:36. > :05:43.70s, it housed troubled and very bright teenage girls. Again, Jimmy
:05:43. > :05:50.Savile was welcomed in by staff. represented, in a way, this idea
:05:50. > :05:54.that he was going to be our saviour. In fact, it was completely the
:05:54. > :05:59.antithesis, because what he did was abuse us. The girls were just
:05:59. > :06:03.saying that he never stopped eying up their tits, and how he lined
:06:03. > :06:07.everybody up to kiss them all goodbye. And he stuck his tongue in
:06:07. > :06:11.their mouths and he touched their breasts. And this was common
:06:11. > :06:20.knowledge about him. This was the sort of thing that you knew about
:06:20. > :06:24.him. It wasn't accepted, it was "oh Jimmy Savile's coming". You knew,
:06:24. > :06:29.but you didn't have any power to do anything about it, he still rep
:06:29. > :06:34.presented this idea that he was going to -- represented the idea he
:06:34. > :06:40.was going to give you some hope. Savile would sweep up in his Rolls-
:06:40. > :06:45.Royce, dolling out cigarettes, and offers -- doling out cigarettes and
:06:45. > :06:48.offers to watch his shows being produced. There is nothing in the
:06:48. > :06:52.least unusual about the fact that these victims are coming forward
:06:52. > :06:57.now. But there were complaints about
:06:57. > :07:01.Savile at Duncroft. And in 2007, Surrey Police began investigating.
:07:01. > :07:07.A file was sent to the Crown Prosecution Service, only for the
:07:07. > :07:11.investigation to be dropped through lack of evidence. The now notorious
:07:11. > :07:16.children's home, Haut de la Garenne, in jersey, was also visited by
:07:16. > :07:21.Savile, resulting in further accusation. It wasn't just Surrey
:07:21. > :07:26.Police that investigated Savile, a total of five forces received
:07:26. > :07:30.complaints while he was still alive. So why was he never held to
:07:30. > :07:33.account? This former officer from Thames Valley Police was told by a
:07:33. > :07:39.nurse at Stoke Mandeville that Savile was abusing patients. He
:07:39. > :07:48.took the matter to his superiors, but was rebuffed. I was not
:07:48. > :07:56.believed. No. I think purely because at that stage, and for many,
:07:56. > :07:59.many years, of course, Savile was an icon. When rumours attach
:07:59. > :08:05.themselves to public figures, the media are often the first to get
:08:05. > :08:12.wind of it. It has become clear that happened in this case, and yet
:08:12. > :08:16.newspapers and broadcasters didn't run with the story. Why not?
:08:16. > :08:22.Several former BBC staff have come out to say they were aware of
:08:22. > :08:24.Savile's predatory behaviour, in the 1970s and 1980s. The BBC has
:08:24. > :08:30.announced they will hold an independent inquiry, into who knew
:08:30. > :08:34.what about their fallen star, once the police give the green light.
:08:34. > :08:40.More recent decisions are also under scrutiny. After Savile died,
:08:40. > :08:45.I was part of a Newsnight team that investigated claims of sexual abuse.
:08:45. > :08:51.The allegations centered on Duncroft School in Surrey, but they
:08:51. > :08:55.included Stoke Mandeville hospital, and Television Centre. Newsnight
:08:55. > :08:59.decided not to run the story for editoral reasons. The BBC is under
:08:59. > :09:04.pressure to explain why the story was not broadcast. And whether any
:09:04. > :09:08.influence was brought to bear by senior executives, ahead of the
:09:08. > :09:12.Christmas tribute programmes for Savile. Once senior executives at
:09:12. > :09:17.the BBC knew that there was an investigation into Jimmy Savile,
:09:17. > :09:20.and they could see their Christmas schedules, and they could see
:09:20. > :09:26.celebratory programmes about Jimmy Savile, it is absolutely the first
:09:26. > :09:31.thing you do is, can I see the item, before I do anything else.
:09:31. > :09:36.January, newspapers knew about the Newsnight investigation. But most
:09:36. > :09:39.only took an interest after the ITV documentary into Savile, screened
:09:40. > :09:45.last week. This scandal began with one man, but it doesn't end there.
:09:45. > :09:48.Some of the country's most powerful institutions are having to ask
:09:48. > :09:58.themselves searching and uncomfortable questions.
:09:58. > :10:06.With me, John Brown of the NSPCC, Paul Conew who has worked in senior
:10:06. > :10:10.politicians on papers, Vanessa Feltz, and Kevin Mash. I want to
:10:10. > :10:14.ask you Kevin, the BBC declined to appear in this discussion. As a
:10:14. > :10:17.former editor, you can help us understand how the BBC's decision-
:10:18. > :10:22.making process works. First of all, the suspicion that Newsnight
:10:22. > :10:27.dropped its investigation because of pressure from other bits of the
:10:27. > :10:32.BBC. Also, the bewilderment in many parts that Newsnight didn't go
:10:32. > :10:37.ahead with broadcasting allegations, which, when they turned up on ITV,
:10:37. > :10:42.have had the devastating effect we know about? They are two separate
:10:42. > :10:45.questions. I find it inconceivable that the
:10:45. > :10:50.editor of the programme was pressured by anyone more senior in
:10:50. > :10:56.the BBC not to run the Newsnight investigation. It isn't how the BBC
:10:56. > :11:01.works. The chairman has denied it, the DG has denied it and the editor
:11:01. > :11:06.of the programme has denied it. I see no reason not to believe those
:11:06. > :11:13.denials. I have never had any of that kind of pressure on me as 20
:11:13. > :11:16.years as an editor in the BBC, to run or not run a story. There is
:11:17. > :11:21.something cucid about BBC editors that if a boss tried to pressure
:11:21. > :11:24.them, they would make sure it would get on air. The BBC is not that
:11:24. > :11:29.sort of organisation, it is hard to understand it from the outside.
:11:29. > :11:33.What about the point f you had Jimmy Savile, with a big Christmas
:11:33. > :11:39.tribute coming up, and a boss saying, I'm not sure about the
:11:39. > :11:44.investigation? It is not how the BBC works, you can get theological
:11:44. > :11:49.about it, dance on the head of the pin, and who knew what, did the DG
:11:49. > :11:52.know, head of television know. Did someone pick up the phone and come
:11:52. > :11:54.around to the editor of this programme's office and say, pull
:11:54. > :11:59.the plug on that investigation, I don't believe that happened. What
:11:59. > :12:03.about the question of editoral judgment, about Newsnight not going
:12:03. > :12:07.ahead with something that ITV eventually did? That is not quite
:12:07. > :12:11.right. Some of the evidence overlaps. Some of the evidence was
:12:11. > :12:15.different. I have no special knowledge of it. I know how the
:12:15. > :12:19.editing process goes on a programme like Newsnight. Clearly the initial
:12:19. > :12:23.investigation was focused in a very narrow area, it was about whether
:12:23. > :12:28.Surrey Police had acted properly that is the kind of journalism that
:12:28. > :12:31.the BBC is there to do, actually. To hold institutions to account, to
:12:31. > :12:35.find, including theself, incidently, which I believe we are doing
:12:35. > :12:38.tonight. To hold institutions to account, and to see if there is any
:12:38. > :12:40.evidence that those institutions haven't act properly. That was the
:12:40. > :12:44.focus of the investigation. Yes it is true, there were other issues
:12:44. > :12:47.around that shregs, but that was the focus -- that investigation,
:12:47. > :12:51.but that was the focus. When the editor of the programme judged that
:12:51. > :12:56.there was a reason for Surrey Police dropping the investigation,
:12:56. > :12:59.that was in his view, adequate. He decided he didn't have, as I
:12:59. > :13:03.understand it, sufficient evidence to run a piece on the own,
:13:03. > :13:07.levelling allegation at Jimmy Savile. We are talking, obviously,
:13:07. > :13:12.about Newsnight investigations, and other investigations, after Jimmy
:13:12. > :13:17.Savile's death. The tabloids, over all the time that Jimmy Savile was
:13:17. > :13:26.a huge star, did they have a whiff of any of this, why didn't they do
:13:26. > :13:34.more? Yes, they did. I did back in 1994, in the Sunday Mirror, we had,
:13:34. > :13:37.we met two former Duncroft girls, separately one came to us through a
:13:37. > :13:40.an intermediary, she managed to help us track down another girl.
:13:40. > :13:44.Both of them alleged they had been assaulted by Jimmy Savile. We
:13:44. > :13:48.actually checked them out, we interviewed them separately, even
:13:48. > :13:52.put trick questions to contradict them, their story of compelling and
:13:52. > :13:56.convincing. The problem was, that they were terrified of Savile, they
:13:56. > :14:00.didn't think they would be believed. They thought it would be the
:14:00. > :14:06.catalyst, rather than going into a witness box. In the end they were
:14:06. > :14:10.afraid to go into the witness box. To swear affadavits. There was,
:14:10. > :14:14.much to my frustration, I had to bow to the legal advice that this
:14:14. > :14:19.would be suicidal in terms it of reputation and libel damages.
:14:19. > :14:24.though, it has been the life blood of tabloid newspapers, particularly
:14:24. > :14:28.Sunday's, down the decade, to expose the private lives of
:14:28. > :14:32.celebrities. That is what told papers. The News of the World did
:14:32. > :14:35.great work exposing paedophile, but Jimmy Savile, despite a lot of
:14:35. > :14:41.newspaper people knowing the allegations, got aand we way with
:14:41. > :14:47.it? There were whisper -- who got away with it? There were whispers,
:14:47. > :14:51.I heard them in America back in the 1980s. The occasion in the 1990s
:14:51. > :14:57.was the only occasion I had had two people sitting down and talking
:14:57. > :15:07.about their experiences with him, when they were 14 and 15. At this
:15:07. > :15:07.
:15:07. > :15:11.stage they were well into their 30s. The dunceen to connection raises
:15:11. > :15:13.the own prob -- Duncroft connection raises questions, they were bright
:15:13. > :15:19.girls with troubled background. They were saying, who will believe
:15:19. > :15:25.us. Because, you know, he's friends with the Queen, Princess Diana, in
:15:25. > :15:30.fact, Prince Charles. John Brown of the NSPCC, troubled girls, hard to
:15:30. > :15:35.believe? Absolutely, what we have heard so far about Jimmy Savile is
:15:35. > :15:39.not surprise. It is very typical of sex offender behaviour. Preying on
:15:39. > :15:42.and targeting young, vulnerable girls, maybe who have already
:15:42. > :15:47.experienced problems. Maybe who have already been sexual low abused.
:15:47. > :15:52.That is not untypical. Sexual abuse of children, primarily, is about
:15:52. > :15:54.the abuse of power, coupled with a sexual interest in children. When
:15:54. > :15:58.someone's in a particularly powerful situation and position,
:15:58. > :16:03.it's very easy for them to silence their victims and keep their
:16:03. > :16:06.victims quiet. What about the police, I should say, someone from
:16:06. > :16:09.the Association of Chief police officers was going to join us
:16:09. > :16:14.tonight, but had to pull out at the last minute. Would the police have
:16:14. > :16:22.had the same trouble, if they were coming across statements from
:16:22. > :16:26."troubled" girls. The threshold for gaining a conviction in this
:16:26. > :16:31.country is high, of course, it is based on reasonable doubt, you need
:16:31. > :16:34.a clear and consistent statement from a victim of child abuse. That
:16:34. > :16:38.can be incredibly difficult when you think about the dynamics of
:16:38. > :16:42.child sexual abuse, where the only witnesses to the coim are the
:16:42. > :16:45.victim themselves and the -- crime are the victims themselves and the
:16:45. > :16:50.abuser, where the abuser has told the victim that if they say
:16:50. > :16:55.anything nobody will believe them. They may be taken into care, their
:16:55. > :16:59.family may be split up. That is terrifying for a child to
:16:59. > :17:03.comprehend. The easiest thing for a child to do keep silent. Even when
:17:03. > :17:08.they are approached by another person in a position of authority,
:17:08. > :17:12.having been told they won't be believed. I would reinforce that,
:17:12. > :17:17.earlier in the News of the World we did a carefully legaled story about
:17:17. > :17:21.Gary glit, which effectively said he was -- Gary glitter, which
:17:21. > :17:25.expectively said he was involved with a 13-year-old girl. We passed
:17:25. > :17:35.the information to the police, over and above the story we were able to
:17:35. > :17:37.
:17:37. > :17:42.publish, pretty strong any way. The police got nowhere with it. Eight
:17:42. > :17:48.years later we know what happened to Gary Glitter and the girl and
:17:48. > :17:53.the case against him. How much did Jimmy Savile's celebrity play in
:17:53. > :18:00.his getting away with it? His fame was incalculable it was so
:18:00. > :18:04.venerated, he was venerated, he was a living saint, raising �40 million
:18:04. > :18:10.for associated charities. Even then there was more Niamhity about it
:18:10. > :18:13.than there is now the public adored him. They felt that you had to pass
:18:13. > :18:16.an examination in goodness to be on the television. If you are on the
:18:16. > :18:22.television you have to be an especially nice person, you there
:18:22. > :18:27.with that lovely Trevor McDonald and Michael Parkinsons, and they
:18:27. > :18:32.must be all nice people. If you met a butcher or social worker or
:18:32. > :18:36.librarian, and they said would you like me to give your 12-year-old
:18:36. > :18:41.daughter a lift home and take them home for lunch, you would say, no.
:18:41. > :18:46.But if it was someone on the television, known to be beatified
:18:46. > :18:51.in his own lifetime, would you say, yes please, thank you very much.
:18:51. > :18:55.have to conclude that in Jimmy Savile's charity work, it was, in
:18:55. > :19:01.many senses, his calm playing jacket to cover the dark --
:19:01. > :19:05.camouflage jacket to cover the darker side of him. It is not
:19:05. > :19:11.untypical. We have to wait until the investigation under way is
:19:11. > :19:16.concluded to gain as full a picture as we to this case. We know abusers
:19:16. > :19:21.will go to great lengths to target, groom and abuse children. What a
:19:21. > :19:25.better way, to set up a charity, working with children, and having
:19:25. > :19:29.access to children, and able to be alone with them and abuse them.
:19:29. > :19:33.What about the duty of care, we are talking about the various
:19:33. > :19:36.institutions, the BBC, the hospitals and charities too. The
:19:36. > :19:44.duty of care that all of those institutions had to the young
:19:44. > :19:49.people, who, it turns out, were abused? It appears to be an
:19:49. > :19:53.appalling combination of deriliction of duty, even being be
:19:53. > :19:57.dazzled by fame, overawed by the amount of money he was raising
:19:57. > :20:03.Oregan rating by a tremenduously attraction in the audience to keep
:20:03. > :20:07.huge figures and a combination of all those things. One consolation I
:20:07. > :20:17.had, small now though it is, because I feel a sense of guilt and
:20:17. > :20:22.frustration. Do you? Yes, I do. A few years later, my PR man is a
:20:22. > :20:25.working with a well known charity, and working with lots of well-
:20:25. > :20:28.meaning celebrities. A corporate sponsor asked to involve Jimmy
:20:28. > :20:37.Savile to the charity, I privately pointed out what I knew and why we
:20:37. > :20:42.wouldn't be touching him with the proverbial barge pole. We have
:20:42. > :20:44.heard a lot about it being the 70s and a different era. You wonder if
:20:44. > :20:49.there was a modern Jimmy Savile out there, would it be any more
:20:49. > :20:53.difficult for him to operate? don't think we can possibly know.
:20:53. > :20:57.The allegations that we are hearing now, the suffering that these women
:20:57. > :21:00.are telling us about is horrific. It really is horrific. But we do
:21:00. > :21:03.have to think what we knew at the time. What the hard evidence of,
:21:03. > :21:08.for any of the institutions involved, to act upon, and for all
:21:08. > :21:13.sorts of reasons, some of which are quite reprehensible, taking the
:21:14. > :21:18.testimony of vulnerable young women, seriously, totally reprehensible.
:21:18. > :21:22.But an institution can only act on hard evidence, not rumour alone.
:21:22. > :21:25.Although we were all aware of rumour, I was aware of some of the
:21:25. > :21:30.rumours around Jimmy Savile. I hear the rumours from my friend in the
:21:31. > :21:36.tabloid press, rather than people in the BBC. With the popular press,
:21:36. > :21:40.I do hope Lord Justice Leveson is watching the unfolding saga, this
:21:40. > :21:45.is the flip side of the Leveson Inquiry, I would like to see
:21:45. > :21:50.Leveson, as the Mail staid this morning, I don't always agree --
:21:50. > :21:54.stated this morning, I don't always agree with this, but for Leveson to
:21:54. > :22:00.look at this would be a strong case. The point about the tabloid press
:22:00. > :22:05.and Leveson, while the press was abled to act in an unfettered way,
:22:05. > :22:10.it lauded Savile and built him up into the figure that made him up
:22:10. > :22:15.there. I'm puzzled by the way that why Newsnight didn't carry it. I
:22:15. > :22:21.don't know the reasons for that. I'm sure the women who took part in
:22:21. > :22:24.the Newsnight inquiry, then of course with ITV, must be asking
:22:24. > :22:31.themselves why. Is this still part of the legacy of Savile's power.
:22:31. > :22:37.You can understand how they feel there. But I also feel that we have
:22:37. > :22:43.a situation here, if Levein is too severe in his recommendation, it
:22:43. > :22:47.would make it harder for the press to act. I was trying to find this
:22:47. > :22:50.morning, any evidence that the tabloids were even nodding and
:22:50. > :22:54.winking towards this story over the ten years previous to Savile's
:22:54. > :22:59.death. I could find nothing whatsoever. Quite the opposite,
:22:59. > :23:04.actually, I was seeing this guy being built up by the tabloid press,
:23:04. > :23:08.into the kind of hero figure that made him as untouchable as he was.
:23:08. > :23:12.Finally, want your thoughts on whether thinking about whether
:23:12. > :23:16.Savile could happen again now. Is the legislation appropriate, do we
:23:16. > :23:20.need to look at that again? I say this with a degree of caution. We
:23:20. > :23:25.are in different times now. There has been a whole welter of
:23:25. > :23:31.legislation in the last 40 years, we have had the charge act of 1989.
:23:31. > :23:34.We have had Sir William Puttings report of child protection into res
:23:34. > :23:39.relation children's homes, we have the UN Convention on The rights of
:23:39. > :23:43.a child. The list goes on. We are in different times, public
:23:43. > :23:50.understanding in terms of child abuse, and what makes paedophiles
:23:50. > :23:54.and child abusers operate and the modus operandi. Could it happen
:23:54. > :23:59.again?, yes, because fundamentally the basics about child abuse, the
:23:59. > :24:04.abuse of power, sexuality fundamentals about children are
:24:04. > :24:08.still there, we need on our guard, and encourage children and adults
:24:08. > :24:12.when we have concerns to voice them. Social networking might help too.
:24:13. > :24:20.Thank you all. The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that seven
:24:20. > :24:24.Royal Marines have been arrested on suspicion of murder in Afghanistan.
:24:24. > :24:27.This news has emerged in the last couple of hours. What sort of
:24:28. > :24:33.detail do we have? Very scant. It has only come out less than two
:24:33. > :24:36.hours ago. The MoD has not said where it happened. Or exact low who
:24:36. > :24:41.was involved. We know it happened last -- exactly who was involved.
:24:41. > :24:46.We know it happened last year, there were two major Royal Marine
:24:46. > :24:48.units in Afghanistan at the time 42 Command, and the Special Boat
:24:48. > :24:53.Service, conducting special operations there. It could be one
:24:53. > :24:57.of those two units. They did, however, say, that this is really
:24:57. > :25:01.around the issue of rules of engagment. It may well be that the
:25:01. > :25:04.soldiers did not follow the right procedure, for want of a better
:25:04. > :25:08.word. The MoD said no civilians were involved in the incident. It
:25:08. > :25:12.seems to suggest that these soldiers killed, an insurgent,
:25:12. > :25:15.that's their word, and perhaps they didn't follow the proper rules of
:25:15. > :25:20.engagment. That is due to positively identifying that the
:25:20. > :25:23.person is armed and a threat to you, before opening fire. It may also be
:25:23. > :25:28.something to do with what happened once that person had been captured.
:25:28. > :25:33.We also want to ask you tonight about the seemingly ever increasing
:25:33. > :25:36.tensions between Turkey and Syria? Of course this has always gone up
:25:36. > :25:42.another ratchet because what was happening this time last night.
:25:43. > :25:49.That was an incident involving a Syrian Airbus.
:25:49. > :25:58.The Syrian air flight from Moscow to Damascus, was intercepted last
:25:58. > :26:06.night. Turkish F-16 fighters buzzed the aircraft and ordered it to land
:26:06. > :26:14.to Ankara, the Turkish Government said it was carrying arms.
:26:14. > :26:18.TRANSLATION: This is equipment and munitions sent to the Syrian
:26:18. > :26:22.defence agency by the Russian Government. Syria and Russia have
:26:22. > :26:27.denied the arms smuggling accusation.
:26:27. > :26:32.TRANSLATION: What happened could be described aspirecy, Turkish
:26:32. > :26:36.areopiracy against the civilian Syrian claim on the regular flight
:26:36. > :26:39.to Damascus. Can Turkish troops operating in strength on -- with
:26:39. > :26:42.Turkish troops operating in strength on the border, and
:26:42. > :26:46.authorisation from their parliament to enter Syria. The scene is set
:26:46. > :26:50.for further confrontation. It has brought opposition criticism of the
:26:50. > :26:56.Turkish Government. Now that the Syrian civil war has been dragging
:26:56. > :27:04.on, Turkey finds theself in a very difficult position, unable to
:27:04. > :27:10.influence events in the country. It has also increasingly lost their
:27:10. > :27:16.close ties they enjoyed with the countries in the region, Iraq,
:27:16. > :27:20.China, Iran. Last night's incident adds to the recent shelling along
:27:20. > :27:24.the Turkish-Syrian border, as tensions worsen between the two
:27:24. > :27:28.nations. Polls show many Turk are worried about the Government siding
:27:29. > :27:33.with the Syrian opposition. For those living in the frontier zone,
:27:33. > :27:36.the upsurge in military action has been unwelcome.
:27:36. > :27:40.TRANSLATION: Three days ago, we were working, we were harvesting
:27:40. > :27:43.cotton, a bomb fell here. We all ran. Now fighting continues in
:27:44. > :27:50.these village, it doesn't stop. Bombs are always falling, but we
:27:50. > :27:56.have to stay here for work. Every day, every hour, there is
:27:56. > :28:05.fighting, no-one knows what to do. Listen to that, you can hear the
:28:05. > :28:09.fighting from here. With refugees still escape the ing -- escaping
:28:09. > :28:16.the war by crossing into their country, Turkey can't remain
:28:17. > :28:20.uninvolved. It is hoping to escalate the role to speed the
:28:20. > :28:26.toppling of President Assad. Do we know what was on the plane? Apart
:28:26. > :28:30.from 35 passengers, it would seem, so far, simply normal cargo and
:28:30. > :28:33.luggage. The Turk have had 24 hours to produce evidence for the claims.
:28:33. > :28:36.There have been vague hints about communications equipment or
:28:36. > :28:39.ammunition, nothing has been produced. The longer it goes on,
:28:39. > :28:44.the more the suspicion will be that this was either faulty intelligence
:28:44. > :28:49.that lay behind this, or the desire to provoke some kind of incident.
:28:49. > :28:52.Either way it doesn't set a particularly good tone at the
:28:52. > :28:57.moment when tensions are so high between the two countries, and the
:28:57. > :29:01.risk of further open hostilities between the Syrian and Turkish
:29:01. > :29:06.armed force seem to be very severe. As you know, Syria has been kornd
:29:06. > :29:11.concerned for some time. For months the Republican former presidential
:29:11. > :29:15.candidate, John McCain, has been urging President Obama to arm the
:29:15. > :29:20.rebels in Syria. It doesn't seem the President is listening, but
:29:20. > :29:24.neither is Mitt Romney. First we talk about the diverted Syrian
:29:24. > :29:29.plane. I think it is a symptom of the increasing tensions throughout
:29:29. > :29:34.the region, particularly Turkey and Syria. They have exchanged
:29:34. > :29:39.artillery fire, as you know. Erdogan, the Prime Minister, has
:29:39. > :29:47.gone from a close relationship with Bashar al-Assad, to one of outside
:29:47. > :29:51.empty. There was, already, as you eluded to, trouble on the border,
:29:51. > :29:56.skirmishes, big wars can start from small skirmishes? One of the things
:29:56. > :30:00.from the beginning I was very concerned about, that we have now
:30:00. > :30:08.got Jordan flooded again with refugees, hundreds of thousands,
:30:08. > :30:12.last check was 150,000. There is a million-and-a-half refugees in
:30:12. > :30:18.Syria, several hundred thousand in Turkey, and Lebanon is feeling the
:30:18. > :30:23.strains of it as well. There could be an outbreak either in Lebanon or
:30:23. > :30:27.the Turkish border very easily. could that be stopped? I'm not sure
:30:27. > :30:34.how it could be stopped. I know how it could be prevented from starting.
:30:34. > :30:38.That is, a long time ago we should have supplied arms and equipment to
:30:38. > :30:42.the Syrians resisting Bashar al- Assad. What do you understand, Mitt
:30:42. > :30:49.Romney's position, on the arming the opposition to be?
:30:49. > :30:54.understanding of his position is he wants a ply of arms, into -- a
:30:54. > :31:02.supply of arms into those resisting. Whether he's not reached the point
:31:02. > :31:07.where it is direct supply of American arms. Facilitating arms
:31:07. > :31:12.into Syria. I would like to see him say more. I hope maybe I can
:31:12. > :31:19.convince him over time. He's your man, he's on the rise after that
:31:19. > :31:24.debate, you are fundraising for him tonight in London. Why, when you
:31:24. > :31:28.talk to him, why isn't he persuaded about your point of view? I think
:31:28. > :31:32.he's persuaded by the point of view that they need arms to have a fair
:31:32. > :31:36.fight. You have the Iranians on the ground bringing weapons, the
:31:36. > :31:40.Russians bringing weapons in. I don't think he's quite ready to go
:31:40. > :31:43.the next step. Are you saying he would find it impossible to be
:31:43. > :31:46.elected f he explained to the American people, if his view before
:31:46. > :31:51.the election of that America needed to arm the opposition? I don't
:31:51. > :31:57.think in this environment that it would be very easy for him to
:31:57. > :32:01.explain to the American people. Obviously, there would be the
:32:01. > :32:04.counter-attack, that he's unqualified, inexperienced, all of
:32:04. > :32:08.those things. In part of his public statements on this, he says he
:32:08. > :32:14.wants to work with partners to identify and organise those members
:32:14. > :32:22.of the opposition who share our values? How on earth do you idea
:32:22. > :32:29.foi them? It is very difficult. Because, as I say, now 17, 18
:32:29. > :32:35.months later, we have seen this inflow of Jihadists, we always fish
:32:35. > :32:39.in troubled waters. That is the nature of Al-Qaeda, it argues, in
:32:39. > :32:43.my view, for us to have taken action earlier and more vigorously.
:32:43. > :32:46.Turning to the vice-presidential debate tonight, what are your
:32:46. > :32:50.thoughts? I think it will be very interesting, you have two different
:32:50. > :32:53.personalities here. If there was ever a clash in personalities, it
:32:53. > :33:03.certainly is there. Obviously as a Republican I
:33:03. > :33:09.anticipate that Paul R -- Ryan, he will do well, he uns the issue, and
:33:09. > :33:13.how well will he do it. The danger he has is saying something that
:33:13. > :33:19.Americans would be asking what he are talk about. I don't think he
:33:19. > :33:22.will do that, he's well rehearsed. A lot of the criticism from
:33:22. > :33:26.democrats about the President's performance is less about the
:33:26. > :33:30.detail, and more on the fact that he didn't appear to be in the room.
:33:30. > :33:36.He didn't appear to want to be there. Do you reflect if you had
:33:36. > :33:41.had been debating that guy, things might have been different? In 2008,
:33:41. > :33:46.the President did very well in the debates against me. Maybe that is a
:33:46. > :33:52.commentary on my all lents. As, the President didn't have a record to
:33:52. > :33:59.defend at that time. It was hope and change, now it is despair and
:33:59. > :34:03.danger. That is a pretty good line. I think the President has had
:34:04. > :34:08.difficulty in defending his record. One of the seminal moment was when
:34:08. > :34:10.the moderator said, what about working together, and Romney talked
:34:10. > :34:15.about being Governor of Massachusetts, working with
:34:15. > :34:20.Democrats, what did the President say? He said sometimes you have to
:34:20. > :34:28.say no to people. If there's one thing the American people want, and
:34:28. > :34:32.I'm stopped in the street by people, say work together and avert this
:34:32. > :34:36.physical cliff. That was one of the moments in the debate.
:34:36. > :34:39.Thank you. It's good to be back with you.
:34:39. > :34:44.Andrew Mitchell is still in his job as the Conservative Party's Chief
:34:44. > :34:47.Whip, responsible for maintaining party discipline. He survived
:34:47. > :34:50.coverage of his Downing Street encounter with police. He survived
:34:50. > :34:56.the slings and arrows of the party conference, though he judged it
:34:56. > :35:04.best not to turn up for his own. Could he still be on his way out.
:35:04. > :35:09.Tomorrow's Telegraph is demanding he should go. It is the kind of
:35:09. > :35:12.prime time exposure any politician would die for. We don't know if the
:35:12. > :35:17.Chief Whip watched BBC One on Friday night. If he did, he
:35:17. > :35:23.probably wasn't laughing. Victoria asked me if I could give her any
:35:23. > :35:27.tips, said, of course I can Moy dear. Now, look, if the BBC
:35:27. > :35:31.security man asks you to get off your bike and come in through the
:35:31. > :35:37.side gate. Whatever you do, don't call him a pleb.
:35:37. > :35:41.Now, in this long-running series, it could soon be crunch time for
:35:41. > :35:47.Andrew Mitchell. He has the dance floor to himself, and three members
:35:48. > :35:51.of the Police Federation in the judges' chairs. Mr Mitchell will
:35:51. > :35:56.sit down with those police representatives here at his local
:35:56. > :35:59.constituency office n what is called a "clear the air" meeting.
:35:59. > :36:04.Get this one right and he might be ablable to draw a line under the
:36:04. > :36:08.affair. Use his rag now, and his political future might not look too
:36:08. > :36:13.healthy. This is the row that refuses to die down, it all started
:36:13. > :36:17.three week ago, when a clearly angry Chief Whip, let loose at
:36:17. > :36:25.policemaning the Downing Street security gates, as he left on his
:36:25. > :36:31.bicycle. The official police log claims he uses the world BEEP plebs.
:36:31. > :36:34.It was the end of a long and extremely frustrating day, not that
:36:34. > :36:40.is an excuse for what happened. I didn't show the police the amount
:36:40. > :36:43.of respect I should have done. We should all respect them, they do an
:36:43. > :36:47.incredibly difficult job. I have apologised to the Police and the
:36:47. > :36:52.police officer involved on the gate. He has accepted my apology. And I
:36:52. > :36:55.hope very much we can draw a line under it there.
:36:55. > :37:00.Not much chance of that. He was forced to stay away from his own
:37:00. > :37:04.party conference last week. Local police, though, did turn up,
:37:04. > :37:09.wearing pleb-themed T-shirts. Despite the policemen involved
:37:09. > :37:13.accepting his apology. Many other young rank and file officers remain
:37:13. > :37:19.upset. Their anger now seems to be shifting, away from any words he
:37:19. > :37:24.might have used, to a Mo tensionly more damaging allegation -- a
:37:24. > :37:29.potentially more damaging allegation. And he seems to be
:37:29. > :37:33.protecting those lying. This is one of the lead judges? It is a simple
:37:33. > :37:38.question, what did you say, and that is what we want to know. If he
:37:38. > :37:41.did say the words he can apologise again, the offices have accepted
:37:41. > :37:47.the apology any way. That is not where we are at now. We are not
:37:47. > :37:50.really that bothered about the words. The issue is honesty and
:37:50. > :37:54.integrity, and who is telling the truth here. The Conservative Party,
:37:54. > :37:58.meanwhile, will be hoping the public will start to get tired of
:37:58. > :38:02.the row. When member of the Government told Newsnight, that out
:38:02. > :38:06.of his 80,000 constituency, he has received one e-mail about it. The
:38:06. > :38:11.public aren't interested. He has apologised, it has been accepted,
:38:12. > :38:16.it is time to move on. Even the police admit there is another
:38:16. > :38:21.agenda here though. Any criticism of Mr Mitchell feeds into wider
:38:21. > :38:24.anger about cuts to police budgets. Cuts many officers feel are unfair.
:38:24. > :38:28.This thing would have blown over if he had answered all the questions
:38:28. > :38:32.in the first place. That is what would have happened. You know. But,
:38:32. > :38:36.again, I would bring it back to the fact that the attitude of Mr
:38:36. > :38:40.Mitchell, may be reflective of the general attitude of the
:38:40. > :38:45.Conservative Party towards police and police officers. Mr Mitchell's
:38:45. > :38:49.position, does now seem to be under serious pressure. Several Tory MPs
:38:49. > :38:54.are said to have written to the chairman of the backbench 1922
:38:54. > :39:03.Committee, asking why he's still in a job. Like Strictly, it is not
:39:03. > :39:07.just the judges' vote that counts, it is the public's vote too. Are
:39:08. > :39:12.the police right to pursue it? is water under the bridge, they
:39:12. > :39:16.should let it go. I think this one is not a big issue what he is
:39:16. > :39:21.supposed to have called them. would you like to be called a pleb?
:39:21. > :39:25.Sfrpblgt I would brush it off. I could be called a lot worse. As a
:39:25. > :39:30.position of power in the police, it is disrespectful, and soen. They
:39:30. > :39:33.have a right to pursue it if their case is valid. If I'm asked whether
:39:33. > :39:37.or not he can survive, I think he can.
:39:37. > :39:40.I doubt if the police will come out and say, suddenly, they are
:39:40. > :39:46.complete lie satisfied with the situation. They will clearly have
:39:46. > :39:49.an attempt to keep it all going. At the end of the day, I think he he
:39:50. > :39:52.can survive, it is a clearly a difficult situation for him. It
:39:52. > :39:57.could all come down to one performance for Mr Mitchell
:39:57. > :40:05.tomorrow. A poor showing and he might have a lot more time on his
:40:05. > :40:09.hands, for Friday night TV? And old Brucie's gags.
:40:09. > :40:12.Ever since Barack Obama became the first black President of the US.
:40:12. > :40:17.People have discussed what affect his election would have on black
:40:17. > :40:21.people in America. As he fights for a second term, we decided there is
:40:21. > :40:29.no better person to hear about from a man who is the Poet Laureate of
:40:29. > :40:33.the ghetto, soul singer, Bobby Womack.
:40:33. > :40:39.Most people go down, I'm going up. It is just taking the guitar, and
:40:39. > :40:44.turning it upside down, and making all the chords backwards. Does
:40:44. > :40:49.anyone else do that, that you know of? No to.
:40:49. > :40:54.# Stop and take # A real good listen
:40:54. > :41:00.Bobby Womack has been singing and writing songs since he pinched his
:41:00. > :41:09.dad's guitar and taught himself to play.
:41:09. > :41:14.As unorthodox in his way, as one- time band mate, Jimi Hendrix.
:41:14. > :41:20.Jimmy just was different. Than anybody, when I say R & B, they had
:41:20. > :41:27.never seen a Jimi Hendrix. To them, for a I go that would be playing
:41:27. > :41:32.and then take -- a guy that would be playing and then take it off and
:41:32. > :41:39.light it guitar. He had had to put it out real quick because it look
:41:39. > :41:42.like a piece of burnt barbecue. They are all great, and a lot late.
:41:42. > :41:52.Womack is the survivor who has outlived most of the stars he has
:41:52. > :41:55.
:41:56. > :42:00.written for or played with. Most, though not all.
:42:00. > :42:03.Womack was persuaded by his friend Sam Cooke, to let the Rolling
:42:03. > :42:11.Stones cover this song .Le # I used to love her
:42:11. > :42:16.# Well it's all over now. He said one day you will be part of
:42:16. > :42:20.history. Group is going to be huge. I said why don't they get their own
:42:20. > :42:25.songs. We became friends. played with them, didn't you. You
:42:25. > :42:29.toured with him? Two or three tour. Everyone has a bit of a down on
:42:29. > :42:32.banks at the moment. I was reading in your book, that you used to keep
:42:32. > :42:40.your money in your shoe. Do you think we were better off when we
:42:40. > :42:46.kept our money in our shoes? If you had as small an amount as I stkp,
:42:46. > :42:49.unless you were you were -- z unless you were a huge shoe. I went
:42:49. > :42:54.to Wilson Pickett's house, and he said, look in the closet, it was
:42:54. > :42:58.stacked to money all up to the top. I have never seen that amount of
:42:58. > :43:06.money. I said man, are you crazy, why not put it in the bank and you
:43:06. > :43:10.can draw off the interest. He said, no, I can't go asleep and then
:43:10. > :43:17.somebody steal my money. He was serious about that. I thought I
:43:17. > :43:26.wouldn't put mine in the bank either.
:43:26. > :43:31.When you count the Presidents we had before Obama showed up. It was
:43:31. > :43:41.telling me. 50 years ago, he said bobby we have a black President I
:43:41. > :43:43.want to see that. I knew he was drinking gin, I said, he said he
:43:44. > :43:48.was serious. What do you think of Obama? Trying
:43:48. > :43:54.to clean up the mess he has stepped into, he has done all he could do.
:43:54. > :44:00.You have to understand politic is politic. You know. He has to take
:44:00. > :44:08.care, each situation is a bad day. People think, four years to change
:44:08. > :44:14.it all right away. It takes four years to mess it up.
:44:14. > :44:18.Quentin Tarantino, borrowed the tune, Across 110th Street for the
:44:18. > :44:24.movie Jackie Brown, it was originally written about life in
:44:24. > :44:28.Harlem and New York. We don't hear about the ghetto at the moment for
:44:28. > :44:32.some reason, has it got better? is still the ghetto, nobody focus
:44:32. > :44:40.on it. I'm talking about Presidents, withstand FA bee President, talking
:44:40. > :44:45.about the middle class -- wannabe President talking about the middle-
:44:45. > :44:51.class. They never mentioned the poor people. They don't care. Even
:44:51. > :44:56.if they all came together, they have to take care of them.
:44:56. > :45:06.Bobby Womack has a new record out, on a British label, featuring
:45:06. > :45:08.
:45:08. > :45:12.rising star, Lana Del Rey. # Everything is everythingle
:45:12. > :45:17.The singer has been clean for more than 20 years. After brushes with
:45:17. > :45:25.drugs, booze, firearms, marriage break-up, and premature death, does
:45:25. > :45:33.he have any regrets. Sometimes I do regret. But I keep
:45:33. > :45:37.thinking if I wasn't high maybe my life wouldn't have lasted for the
:45:37. > :45:42.better. I think certain things I did, I shouldn't have got married,
:45:42. > :45:46.or, you know, as soon as I got married the woman started playing,
:45:46. > :45:54.not just with my head, but my head. When your heart says, let's stop
:45:54. > :46:04.here. You have no choice. Your heart or other organs?! # I'm not
:46:04. > :46:04.
:46:04. > :46:14.just a President of loveful An absolute legend. Shall we put
:46:14. > :46:17.
:46:18. > :46:22.the day out of the mystery, why the day out of the mystery, why
:46:22. > :46:24.not? Good night. There is a potential core of
:46:24. > :46:29.intense wet weather to continuing across north eastern Scotland, the
:46:29. > :46:34.warnings are in force, the intensity of the rain 80mms before
:46:34. > :46:39.the system clears through. A case of sunny spells and shattered
:46:39. > :46:43.showers. The brighter yellows and greens denoting heavier pulses.
:46:43. > :46:47.Cloudy skies generally in Scotland, once we get into the borders across
:46:47. > :46:51.England, prominently dry and sunny. Showers should be few and far
:46:51. > :46:56.between. We keep the showers clinging on to the south coast for
:46:56. > :47:00.a time. Highs of 13 degrees. It is a case of sunny spells and light
:47:00. > :47:04.showers. It won't be long before the showers waiting in the wings in
:47:04. > :47:07.the south west and South Wales during Friday evening.
:47:08. > :47:11.Enjoy the sunshine while I have you have it. A better day for the Isle