:00:15. > :00:20.Tonight, the BBC on the rack. Two new inquiries announced, one into
:00:20. > :00:23.the years Jimmy Savile worked at the BBC, another into any failings
:00:23. > :00:27.over the abandoned Newsnight Savile investigation. And this from the
:00:27. > :00:32.top of the corporation. A profound and heart felt apology, on behalf
:00:32. > :00:36.of the BBC, to every victim. Police say there could be more than
:00:36. > :00:39.40 victims, and more than 300 separate lions of inquiry. We will
:00:39. > :00:44.explore whether the BBC has mishandedled the investigation, the
:00:44. > :00:50.aftermath, and the need to get to the truth. We will hear from TV
:00:50. > :00:54.executives, David Elstein and Airey air strikes and the Guardian
:00:54. > :00:58.columnist, Deborah Orr. Also tonight: We are very proud to
:00:58. > :01:03.receive the Nobel Prize. He may be very proud, but does award suggest
:01:03. > :01:10.there is little point in satire, or does the long history of the
:01:10. > :01:15.maligned institution help keep the peace on the most bloodthirsty
:01:16. > :01:21.connent on earth. We will discuss, connent on earth. We will discuss,
:01:21. > :01:25.Good evening, tonight the BBC has tried to get a grip on the
:01:25. > :01:27.spiralling mass of allegations against Jimmy Savile. The new
:01:27. > :01:32.director-general, Lord Entwistle, has ordered an investigation into
:01:32. > :01:35.the culture and practices into the BBC when Savile worked here. A
:01:35. > :01:40.separate investigation will look into any failings over the handling
:01:41. > :01:44.of the abandoned Newsnight inquiry. It comes as the police reveal 700
:01:44. > :01:49.lines of their inquiries, and put the potential number of victims of
:01:49. > :01:53.Savile at 40. More claims of sexual assault by
:01:53. > :02:00.Sir Jimmy Savile have emerged today. Police are investigating a dozen
:02:00. > :02:05.allegations of abuse. And have revealed that there, at least, 40
:02:05. > :02:10.potential victims. All told detectives are now following 340
:02:10. > :02:14.leads. A director who worked on Jimmy Savile's hit TV show, Jim'll
:02:14. > :02:17.Fix It, claimed to have discovered the presenter having sex with a
:02:17. > :02:23.girl in his dressing room. David Nicolson told a newspaper he was
:02:23. > :02:27.laughed at when he raised his concerns. June Thornton, a patient
:02:27. > :02:31.at Leeds General Infirmary, in 1972, said she saw Savile abuse someone
:02:32. > :02:35.she believed was a brain-damaged girl. Miss Thornton said she told a
:02:35. > :02:40.nurse about the incident, but she was ignored.
:02:40. > :02:44.The director-general announced an independent inquiry into a
:02:44. > :02:48.Newsnight investigation about Jimmy Savile. That was begun last year,
:02:48. > :02:52.but was never completed, and no report was shown. The editor of the
:02:52. > :02:58.programme decided not to pursue it for editoral reasons. But some
:02:58. > :03:02.members of the Newsnight team disagreed with his decision. After
:03:02. > :03:04.the director-general referred to a "cloud of suspicion" over the
:03:04. > :03:08.Newsnight investigation, he was asked whether the programme's
:03:08. > :03:13.editor, Peter Rippon, should be suspended? No, I don't think it
:03:13. > :03:17.would be appropriate to suspend the Newsnight editor. REPORTER: Why?
:03:17. > :03:19.Because I have confidence in Peter Rippon. He's a very good editor
:03:19. > :03:25.indeed. As I have explained to you. We have spent the last two weeks
:03:25. > :03:28.trying to get people to understand and recognise our account of events.
:03:28. > :03:33.Which I standby. What we are doing now, is we have set up an
:03:33. > :03:36.independent inquiry, because, in the end, accountability,
:03:37. > :03:41.transparency, honesty, these are things we want to live by, and be
:03:41. > :03:45.judged by, we recognise that we need that to answer the questions
:03:45. > :03:49.that are being asked. REPORTER: Are you confident that in that
:03:49. > :03:52.Newsnight film, there was no material relevant useful to the
:03:52. > :03:57.police that the BBC sat on by killing that film. There are
:03:57. > :04:02.certainly journalists involved with that who indicate there was
:04:02. > :04:06.relevant material, but Peter Rippon said otherwise in his statement?
:04:06. > :04:10.These issues, Dan, are exactly I want the independent inquiry to
:04:10. > :04:14.look at, I don't want to pre-judge it on anything you have asked me
:04:14. > :04:18.there. REPORTER: Yesterday you did say you didn't know the nature of
:04:18. > :04:22.the Newsnight allegations when the tribute programmes to Jimmy Savile
:04:22. > :04:26.went ahead. Did you know it was an investigation into criminal
:04:26. > :04:29.behaviour by Jimmy Savile, an investigation into potential child
:04:29. > :04:35.abuse by Jimmy Savile, an investigation into action on BBC
:04:35. > :04:38.Prom sis? What did you know? didn't know any of those things.
:04:39. > :04:43.What I knew was Newsnight was looking at Jimmy Savile. That is as
:04:43. > :04:49.much as I was told. I know there is a certain amount of mistcation in
:04:49. > :04:56.the press about this -- mystification in the press about
:04:56. > :04:59.this. I will explain what is in my mind. I'm a former news editor,
:04:59. > :05:03.those investigating the BBC, the independence of the and current
:05:03. > :05:07.affairs, the independence of the news division from any potential
:05:07. > :05:11.influence from elsewhere in the organisation. The thing uppermost
:05:11. > :05:16.in my mind was an absolute determination to ensure that nobody
:05:16. > :05:20.should construe anything I had to say or think about this, as a
:05:20. > :05:25.matter of any pressure. Helen said to me, we're looking into Jimmy
:05:25. > :05:29.Savile. I said, thanks for letting me know, I hope you will keep me
:05:29. > :05:33.updated. The BBC is also calling in an independent investigator, to
:05:33. > :05:38.examine the culture at the corporation, during the time Savile
:05:38. > :05:43.was committing his alleged attacks on children. Also to ensure that
:05:43. > :05:50.present safeguards are fit for purpose. I have one thing to repeat,
:05:50. > :05:54.that is a profound and heart felt apology on behalf of the BBC to
:05:54. > :06:00.every victim. It is the victims, these women who were subject to
:06:00. > :06:02.criminal actions, who must be central in our thoughts.
:06:03. > :06:08.director-general said the two independent inquiries at the BBC
:06:08. > :06:12.will be led by individuals, to be named as soon as possible, who
:06:12. > :06:15.command respect for their insight and judgment.
:06:16. > :06:19.No-one from the BBC was available to be interviewed tonight. I'm
:06:19. > :06:24.joined now by David Elstein, who has held a number of executive
:06:24. > :06:32.positions in television, including at Sky and Channel 5. Dawn Airey, a
:06:32. > :06:36.former head of Channel 5, now heading the largest independent
:06:36. > :06:40.European television company. Has the BBC botched this? It is not
:06:40. > :06:45.unusual for the BBC to be slow off the mark when a crisis hits t and
:06:45. > :06:52.to play catch-up for a long time afterwards. We have seen it many
:06:52. > :07:01.times. The problem here is the BBC is trying to catch up day by day.
:07:01. > :07:05.Yesterday it announced the Ken McQuarry inquiry, now it has been
:07:05. > :07:08.overtaken by an external inquiry into what has happened. Although
:07:08. > :07:13.George Entwistle has announced these two inquiries, the most
:07:13. > :07:18.important one is the one he hasn't announced. That is why, when
:07:18. > :07:23.Newsnight journalists had assembled, if not broadcast, substantial
:07:24. > :07:28.evidence of sexual molestation by Jimmy Savile, why did the BBC
:07:28. > :07:31.blythly proceed to broadcast a series of celebratory programme
:07:31. > :07:37.about Savile, even as those interviews hit the cutting room
:07:37. > :07:43.floor. Do you accept that, to some people, it looks as if the BBC has,
:07:43. > :07:45.firstly, dragged the feet, and secondly, because of the supposedly
:07:45. > :07:49.celebratory programmes, that there is something to hide there. As Mr
:07:49. > :07:53.Entwistle put it, a cloud of suspicion over what Newsnight was
:07:53. > :07:57.up to and what it did or didn't do? It is farcical to suggest that
:07:57. > :08:01.because of the two entertainment programmes that the Newsnight piece
:08:01. > :08:07.was sidelined or dropped. George, in your package at the beginning
:08:07. > :08:11.gave a very good articulation that is to, yes, he was aware of the
:08:11. > :08:16.fact that Newsnight was looking into Jimmy Savile, and that was it.
:08:16. > :08:21.The independence of producers and editors of all News and Current
:08:21. > :08:26.Affairs programmes have to remain absolutely paramount. The important
:08:26. > :08:29.thing, I think which is what he has just announced, which is two very
:08:29. > :08:33.significant forensic and soul- searching inquiries. That is all
:08:33. > :08:36.the BBC can do. It will be interesting to see who is chairing
:08:36. > :08:40.both the inquiries. But I think he has done exactly the right thing
:08:41. > :08:47.for this moment in time. Where do you sit on this, I think everybody
:08:48. > :08:53.has been shocked, day by day it gets worse. We heard Chris Patten
:08:53. > :08:59.say it is a cesspit, and it certainly this? There is lots of
:08:59. > :09:02.things happening, first of all we shouldn't lose sight of the fact
:09:02. > :09:05.that until somebody broke this story, nobody had broken the story.
:09:05. > :09:10.That is not just the BBC. That is a huge powerful media. We have a
:09:10. > :09:18.press, that for a time, seemed able to get any information they liked
:09:18. > :09:24.out of people. A press that was particularly down on paedophilia,
:09:24. > :09:28.supposedly. Had many of them had a look at this? Nobody was able to
:09:29. > :09:33.break this story, Newsnight, the BBC, at least had a go at it, they
:09:33. > :09:37.may have failed at the final hurdle, it is important to be clear on why
:09:37. > :09:45.that happened, but they at least had a go at it. It is a measure of
:09:45. > :09:49.how successful this man was as a paedophile, who groomed an entire
:09:49. > :09:52.nation, that nobody broke the story before now, at all. Specifically,
:09:52. > :09:56.what do you want to know about the Newsnight investigation, and why it
:09:57. > :10:00.was never run, why nothing actually got on it? Frankly, it is not
:10:00. > :10:07.important. I don't think there is any conspiracy, I don't think there
:10:07. > :10:09.was any pressure put on the editor. He probably took an editoral
:10:10. > :10:14.judgment, he was probably wrong, we will eventually find out and make
:10:14. > :10:17.our own judgment. That is not the issue. The issue is the BBC has
:10:17. > :10:22.been landed with huge embarrassment, not just because it didn't
:10:22. > :10:26.broadcast this item, but because it did broadcast a series of
:10:26. > :10:31.programmes, which any alert executive would have yanked from
:10:31. > :10:36.the schedule, as soon as they heard, Newsnight's investigating Jimmy
:10:36. > :10:39.Savile. All the BBC News outlets were alerted, by the Newsnight team,
:10:39. > :10:43.be abare that there is this investigation going on. I don't
:10:43. > :10:47.understand the point that Dawn is making and that George Entwistle
:10:47. > :10:50.made, which is you can't ask to see the tape, even if it hasn't been
:10:50. > :10:53.broadcast. Of course you see the tape. As soon as you see the tape
:10:53. > :10:57.you pull every one of those programmes out of the schedule.
:10:57. > :11:02.me go back top Dawn and the wider investigation into the culture of
:11:02. > :11:06.the BBC in the 1970s and 1980s, perhaps it is a reflection of the
:11:06. > :11:11.culture of not just the BBC in that time, what was going on. What do
:11:11. > :11:16.you hope they might get to the bottom of there? The 1970s and
:11:16. > :11:20.1980s are a completely different world from where we are now. It is
:11:21. > :11:25.comparing chalk and cheese, we have become far more moral and open and
:11:25. > :11:28.transparent as a society, and witnessing what we are talking
:11:28. > :11:35.about this evening. If you go back then, and David knows this as well
:11:35. > :11:40.as I do, ITV was a bit like Life on Mars, it was racist, sexist, sexism
:11:40. > :11:44.was endemic, and there were things that went on then, to be frank, you
:11:44. > :11:49.wouldn't tolerate today. The world has moved on, the world, I think,
:11:49. > :11:57.is a better place. But just, David, to go back to the point you were
:11:57. > :12:02.picking up on earlier, about the Newsnight report. The fact is, it
:12:02. > :12:06.didn't stack up, Peter Rippon said he couldn't get the witnesses,
:12:06. > :12:11.their statements, just the police couldn't support what was being
:12:11. > :12:15.said. That's why he didn't run the report. That is perfectly
:12:15. > :12:19.legitimate as a reason to have dropped it. David made a slightly
:12:19. > :12:24.different point, he said the BBC should have been alert to the fact
:12:24. > :12:29.it was going on, even if it didn't stand up. And the key question is
:12:29. > :12:32.why run tributes to the man if there is an investigation going on?
:12:32. > :12:36.Wasn't that a mistake in judgment? We have all had to make the
:12:36. > :12:42.judgment call, but there was a time when Jimmy Savile was perceived to
:12:42. > :12:50.be a national hero. He quite clearly was an appalling individual.
:12:50. > :12:55.Those were two programmes that celebrated a body of work. Whether
:12:55. > :13:00.we like it or not, they were broadcast by the BBC. There were
:13:01. > :13:05.rumours for decades about him, they weren't substantiated. Do you think
:13:05. > :13:11.the culture has changed in the profound way Dawn has said. Some
:13:11. > :13:16.may say it is true, but it is a cop out, whatever he did then is wrong
:13:16. > :13:19.then as it is now? The culture has been dragged to where we are now
:13:19. > :13:26.kicking and screaming. There are basic things we still need to be
:13:26. > :13:33.looking at, that are still wrong with the culture. Certainly, the
:13:33. > :13:37.sexual revolution came along, when this story first broke, Michael
:13:37. > :13:42.Grade went on television and said there was a lot of groupy culture
:13:42. > :13:47.in light entertainment back then, and there is a lot of groupy
:13:47. > :13:51.culture around now. That idea of groupy culture for successful men
:13:51. > :13:55.still actually survives. People make a big deal about it not being
:13:55. > :13:58.for under-16s or paedophiles, but the idea that grown-up men should
:13:58. > :14:03.award themselves with young women, throwing themselves at them, is
:14:03. > :14:10.still there. And, what's more, a man I was arguing with about this
:14:10. > :14:13.earlier today said, well, yes, but what would you do if ten people
:14:13. > :14:22.were coming to your door every evening offering sex. I said, I
:14:22. > :14:27.would call police. You have this culture, that although when we are
:14:27. > :14:32.in the office we are more civilised. But down in Rochdale young women
:14:32. > :14:36.are being used for sex by men and nobody is listening to them. And on
:14:36. > :14:42.a small scale that is happening again. It can't happen on the grand
:14:42. > :14:46.scale as it did in the 1970s at the heart of the BBC. But the thing is
:14:46. > :14:53.paedophiles shouldn't get into positions of powers and abusing
:14:53. > :14:56.young girls, and nobody listening to them, that has happened recently.
:14:56. > :14:59.Congrat layings, as citizens of the European Union -- congratulations,
:14:59. > :15:04.as citizens of the European Union, we share a part in the Nobel Peace
:15:04. > :15:08.Prize, awarded to all of us for the role the EC has for keeping the
:15:08. > :15:14.piece peace on a couldn't nent, where for 100 years has been the
:15:14. > :15:19.scene of kaornish. With a sense of satire, the award comes as Greeks
:15:19. > :15:25.dressed up at Nazis, shouting abuse at Germany's Chancellor, and Europe
:15:26. > :15:29.might be at peace, but not entirely with itself. Nobel Peace Prize Poet
:15:29. > :15:34.Laureates are an interesting bunch. More than 100 individuals and 20
:15:34. > :15:39.organisations have won the prize. Peace has always been a slightly
:15:39. > :15:44.slippery concept. In 1973 Henry Kissinger accepted the prize, while
:15:44. > :15:47.serving as Secretary of State to President Nixon in the Vietnam War.
:15:48. > :15:51.He said the prize symbolised the quest for peace rather than
:15:51. > :15:54.achieving it. In 1976 it went to the founders of the Northern
:15:54. > :15:58.Ireland peace movement, Robert Koren and Betty Williams. The
:15:58. > :16:02.troubles continued for another 20 years. And President Obama was the
:16:02. > :16:06.recipient for his efforts to strengthen international diplomacy,
:16:06. > :16:13.nine months after he took office. He gave away his prize money. Has
:16:13. > :16:23.the EU earned the place in the lirs of winners. Here is Paul Mason, a
:16:23. > :16:23.
:16:23. > :16:27.re -- list of winners. Here is Paul Mason, one of the winners. From
:16:27. > :16:32.democracy to the European Union, a gong, pretty big one, the Nobel
:16:32. > :16:36.Peace Prize. The President of Europe, one of three Presidents,
:16:36. > :16:41.accepted the prize graciously. Committee, and in fact, the
:16:41. > :16:47.international community, are now standing -- send ago very important
:16:47. > :16:52.message to Europe, that the European Union is something very
:16:53. > :16:58.precious, that we should cherish, for the good of Europeans and all
:16:58. > :17:05.the world. But, hold on a minute, it is quite hard to reconcile that
:17:05. > :17:10.Europe with this. In southern Europe the financial crisis has
:17:10. > :17:14.become a crisis of state bankruptcy, austerity imposed from Brussels,
:17:14. > :17:17.Berlin and Frankfurt, is tearing Greece apart, and Spain and
:17:17. > :17:21.Portugal are facing social crisis. The idea of taking more and more
:17:21. > :17:24.power to the centre is so at odds with public opinion, not just in
:17:24. > :17:28.Britain, but all over Europe. Interest comes a moment when it
:17:28. > :17:32.becomes unsustainable. It was supposed to make us richer, it
:17:32. > :17:38.hasn't. It was supposed to make us get on better, it hasn't. All the
:17:38. > :17:46.arguments made for the EU originally are false, people have
:17:46. > :17:52.seen through it. It is an ar This is an area of migrants, the actions
:17:52. > :18:01.of a right-wing extremists last year were in the name of defending
:18:01. > :18:06.white Christian Europe. We don't have a real public and federal
:18:06. > :18:12.authority behind the common currency. So, in that way, I think
:18:12. > :18:16.that it is a Nobel Prize that is an encouragement to go further on the
:18:16. > :18:21.part of more European integration. For two years, the political elite
:18:21. > :18:26.of Europe have struggled to impose a solution. The result, riots,
:18:26. > :18:31.racism, radicalism, recession. Now, they think they have found a
:18:31. > :18:35.solution, and it's more Europe. A rapid move to fiscal and political
:18:35. > :18:41.union. But enthusiasm for that, on the streets of Europe, is very
:18:41. > :18:44.patchy. When you are inside the machine of
:18:44. > :18:47.euro Government, it can seem like it is permanent, the states,
:18:47. > :18:52.nationalties, anthems that drove Europe to war in history, are
:18:52. > :18:55.exactly that, just history. But to Europe's critics, what is happening
:18:55. > :19:00.is the revenge of history. nation state through the centuries
:19:00. > :19:04.has been a great vessel for peace and justice and democracy, in a way
:19:04. > :19:07.these great transnational ideaologies, whether facisim or
:19:07. > :19:11.Marxism or fundamentalism have never been. You would compare
:19:11. > :19:15.Europeanism to those? It is obviously not violent, but in the
:19:15. > :19:19.sense that it refuses to recognise the jurisdiction of the nation
:19:19. > :19:23.states that it presumes to be bigger than international law, it
:19:23. > :19:28.make as very dangerous assumption. Europe was always more than an
:19:28. > :19:32.arrangement, from the catwalks of Milan, to the field of a Danish
:19:32. > :19:36.rock festival, you always knew what continent you were in. History will
:19:36. > :19:41.say the EU kept the peace, and removed the causes of totalitarian
:19:41. > :19:45.rule and genocide, and created a vibe. But what next? I'm an
:19:45. > :19:48.optimist by nature, but I predict that, in the next elections, in
:19:48. > :19:56.2014, the next elections for the European Parliament, we could see a
:19:56. > :20:00.win of pro-European forces, federal forces. And yes, and losses for the
:20:00. > :20:05.euro-sceptic party. More and more people are aware of the fact that
:20:05. > :20:12.in a globalised world, it is impossible to defend their
:20:12. > :20:16.interests, with old fashioned nation states. When you win a big
:20:16. > :20:21.award, it is always best to look stunned. But Britain's most pro-
:20:21. > :20:25.European party leader, caught live on air with the news, sounded like
:20:25. > :20:33.he really was. Worthy winner? I hadn't heard that before.
:20:33. > :20:41.made an interesting face. For peace in Europe? Well, he suppose, what
:20:41. > :20:45.do I want to say! Joining me now are three people, who as EU citizen,
:20:45. > :20:47.share in the Nobel Prize glory, Johann Lamont, former Chancellor of
:20:48. > :20:54.the Exchequer, Richard Corbett, a former Labour MP, working for the
:20:54. > :20:57.President of the European channel, and Gillain Tett from the financial
:20:57. > :21:04.-- President of the European Union, and Gillain Tett from the Financial
:21:04. > :21:08.Times. If you look back over the last 50 years or so, without the
:21:08. > :21:12.European Union, it wouldn't have been a safer place? This is an old
:21:12. > :21:16.myth, the idea that France and Germany would have gone to war
:21:16. > :21:21.after the tragedy of the Second World War, implies that Europeans
:21:21. > :21:25.have learned nothing after three wars in 100 years. Lots of things
:21:25. > :21:28.contribute to peace, NATO contributed to it, the movement of
:21:28. > :21:32.tourist, global media, knowing about everyone's different
:21:32. > :21:35.countries. It would be hard to persuade French citizens to fight
:21:35. > :21:40.against Germany today. Do you think the world would be in a better
:21:40. > :21:43.place without the EU? I think you need transnationalisation in the
:21:43. > :21:48.European continent, we have a bureaucracy that is intrusive, and
:21:48. > :21:58.a very interesting point, some years ago a Nobel Prize-winning
:21:58. > :21:58.
:21:58. > :22:02.economist, he actually predicted that the eurozone would create more
:22:02. > :22:07.conflict in Europe. Perhaps they ought to take his prize away. The
:22:07. > :22:12.whole thing is laughable, it reminds about the death of Little
:22:12. > :22:17.Nell, from Charles Dickens, you need a heart of stone not to burst
:22:17. > :22:21.out laughing. Are you going to give the prize money to the Greek, they
:22:21. > :22:28.deserve it, for staying so specific in the face of difficult problems
:22:28. > :22:31.they have got? I think two things are being mixed up here. We will
:22:31. > :22:35.still have arguments in Europe, of course. What the EU has done is
:22:35. > :22:39.create a structure where the countries of Europe can have those
:22:39. > :22:45.arguments and are in a some what more civilised way than we have
:22:45. > :22:49.done in centuries. From the fall of the roam empire, until 1945, every
:22:49. > :22:55.-- Roman empire, until 1945, every generation slaughtered each other
:22:55. > :22:59.on the battlefields. We had to do something about it. NATO is a damn
:22:59. > :23:03.sight better than what we had before. There was the point that
:23:03. > :23:10.NATO, and the Germans and the French, you might give it to the
:23:10. > :23:14.Germans for not causing trouble in the second half of the century
:23:14. > :23:18.after whenever. The Germans are first to say that bringing all the
:23:18. > :23:23.countries together, NATO and the EU helps, has been fundamental.
:23:23. > :23:27.Without that, Johann Lamont said, surely they would have learned --
:23:27. > :23:30.Norman Lamont said they surely they would have learned the lessons.
:23:30. > :23:36.They didn't after the First World War, 21 years later it was war
:23:36. > :23:40.again. No attempt of made then to set up a structure, a framework to
:23:40. > :23:44.systematically overcome our differences. Provide a place where
:23:44. > :23:48.we could negotiate and agree. You seem to have got the winnings
:23:48. > :23:53.in your hand? Here is the issue, it is one thing to have a structure
:23:53. > :23:57.and framework, that is useful. Structure and framework doesn't
:23:57. > :24:01.make people's hearts beat faster or get them rallying. It is telling
:24:01. > :24:05.that the prize is awarded to a block, not a person. The clips in
:24:05. > :24:09.the film are all about prizes for people. The reason it has gone to
:24:09. > :24:13.the block is there is no-one who will stand up and own the European
:24:13. > :24:18.Union project who is a hero. If you look at bank notes, it is telling,
:24:18. > :24:23.on the British bank note there is a Queen, a central person, a rallying
:24:23. > :24:28.cry. If you look at the American one, George Washington, Lincoln. On
:24:28. > :24:33.the eurozone bank notes, because there are no people to rally around,
:24:33. > :24:38.you have a bridge and an arch. People don't feel excited about a
:24:39. > :24:46.bridge and arch, than they are to create the same sense of social co-
:24:46. > :24:50.heegs and unity. Is part of the point is that the committee
:24:50. > :24:55.recognise the problems in the EU and they are offering
:24:56. > :25:00.encouragement? The EU is incoherent in foreign policy, some members
:25:00. > :25:05.recognise Kosovo, some don't. Some of them wanted to intervene in the
:25:05. > :25:11.Iraq War, some didn't. There is no consensus about these big questions
:25:11. > :25:16.of peace and war in the EU. Richard Corbett says we disagree but not
:25:16. > :25:20.gone to the war? They claim great credit for what happened in the
:25:20. > :25:27.Balkans. What happened when Srebrenica was bombarded, the Dutch
:25:27. > :25:30.stood by and ask nothing. That is what EU peacekeeping did.
:25:30. > :25:37.Balkans shows precisely what happens to an area outside this
:25:37. > :25:41.structure and framework. What about Srebrenica jo. It was outside, the
:25:41. > :25:44.former Yugoslavia was not inside the EU. If you talk to people in
:25:44. > :25:48.central Europe that is what they value, they are grad low coming
:25:48. > :25:53.into the area of stability, to -- gradually coming into the area of
:25:53. > :25:57.stability, to make sure it doesn't happen again. To get your society
:25:57. > :26:00.to buy into it, to make the sacrifices, in a country like
:26:00. > :26:04.Germany, to support the European project, is hard without the
:26:04. > :26:11.central dream. Wouldn't you accept, a that in your lifetime, the EU has
:26:11. > :26:17.encouraged countries like Greece, Portugal and Spain, fascists states,
:26:17. > :26:20.to become democracies, and be more friendly with neighbours? The EU
:26:20. > :26:25.gave support with a framework where there was none. Franco ended his
:26:25. > :26:28.rule because he died, not because the EU was there, he passed away in
:26:29. > :26:33.the middle of the night. That is how democracy came to Spain. He
:26:33. > :26:37.made preparation for a constitutional monarchy. What has
:26:37. > :26:42.happened with the Nobel Prize committee, this they couldn't think
:26:42. > :26:45.of anyone to give the prize so. They came up with a tired, weary
:26:45. > :26:50.old idea. It is just as ridiculous to give it to President Obama after
:26:51. > :26:56.being in the White House for one minute. It seems bizarre in a week
:26:56. > :27:00.where seven thousand police are on the streets so Angela Merkel can
:27:01. > :27:04.visit Athens. Doesn't that strike you as very, very odd? Of course
:27:04. > :27:10.there will be disagreements about particular policies, and economic
:27:11. > :27:15.policies, and what should be done. That is natural in any politic cap
:27:15. > :27:20.structure. People dressed as Nazis on the street? We have pretty big
:27:20. > :27:25.rows in the UK, why not in the European level. Look also at Greece,
:27:25. > :27:29.without the largest-ever loan given in international history to a
:27:29. > :27:34.country. Greece would be in a far, far worse situation. That loan was
:27:34. > :27:39.given by eurozone partners, there is both a degree of solidarity and
:27:39. > :27:42.discipline involved in this situation, difficult as it was.
:27:42. > :27:47.strategy tragedy is what the Nobel Peace Prize is recognising that it
:27:47. > :27:51.was a dream to heal the wound of World War II. The sad thing is the
:27:51. > :27:57.European project threatens to reopen them. That is ironic
:27:57. > :28:01.timing.Le Look what the Greeks are saying
:28:01. > :28:11.about them? I don't think the difficulties in Greece will lead to
:28:11. > :28:11.
:28:11. > :28:17.war. One party and some people in Greece are saying that. That is not
:28:17. > :28:21.the prevailing view. To say that we are going to reopen the conflicts
:28:21. > :28:25.to the Second World War, it is a completely different scale. It is a
:28:25. > :28:29.completely different order of magnitude, and thank goodness it is
:28:29. > :28:33.a different order of magnitude, and a large part that have is thanks to
:28:33. > :28:37.having had the countries of Europe, come together, build up over 06
:28:37. > :28:40.years, a structure in which we can work together. We will leave it
:28:40. > :28:46.there, and look forward to Greece getting the money you have just
:28:46. > :28:56.been awarded by the Nobel Committee. Let's have a look at the front
:28:56. > :29:34.
:29:34. > :29:37.Now, after three decades at BBC Television Centre, with a stint at
:29:37. > :29:41.Lime Grove down the road, this is Newsnight's last programme from
:29:41. > :29:45.this stud hey. From Monday we will be broadcast -- studio, from Monday,
:29:45. > :29:49.we will be broadcasting in high-def vision from Broadcasting House,
:29:49. > :29:53.where Kirsty is now. We are doing some fine tune to go our new studio,
:29:53. > :29:57.getting ready for the move. We will be broadcasting live, from here at
:29:57. > :30:01.10.30 on Monday night. Tonight you can say good night Gavin. I will