:00:12. > :00:16.It wasn't as if the BBC needed reminding, but tonight the Culture
:00:16. > :00:23.Secretary did so any way. Can the public trust the nation's biggest
:00:23. > :00:28.cultural institution? Thank you very much indeed.
:00:28. > :00:32.The BBC Director-Generar didn't have an entirely easy time of it,
:00:32. > :00:35.when he tried to reassure MPs on the subject. You don't have an
:00:35. > :00:40.answer to that question. Have you an answer to that question, have
:00:40. > :00:45.you any questions you would like to answer that you haven't thought of
:00:45. > :00:48.answering yourself. Is trust easily recovered, should we change the law
:00:48. > :00:53.to protect children a lot better. The Government is shocked to
:00:53. > :00:57.discover it's October, and there is not enough time left to shoot
:00:57. > :01:01.badgers, the cull is postponed. What chance this stay of execution
:01:01. > :01:11.becoming permanent. The farmers' union President, gets to persuade
:01:11. > :01:17.you of the merits of badger sied, while rock star, badgercide, while
:01:17. > :01:21.Brian May talks the other side. Why would anyone jump off the side
:01:21. > :01:31.of space. At one point I thought there is nole challenge left, I had
:01:31. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:37.done all the highest buildings, and base jumps, I felt kind of lost.
:01:37. > :01:40.The editor of this programme made a mistake in killing an investigation
:01:40. > :01:48.into child abuse by Jimmy Savile, says the man at the very top of the
:01:48. > :01:54.BBC. In the latest session of the BBC's proed torture, the Director-
:01:54. > :01:57.Generar today confessed to MPs that this organisation's shame and
:01:57. > :02:00.embarrassment at what happened Prom, promised action, and said, in so
:02:00. > :02:04.many words, that the Newsnight investigation should have gone
:02:04. > :02:11.ahead. There was much for more than appearance in which he volunteered
:02:11. > :02:15.himself, and in which he was obliged to admit serious failings.
:02:15. > :02:20.The urgent Tass is to regain trust. The only disagreement is whether
:02:20. > :02:24.this is the worst crisis in the BBC's history, or simply one of
:02:24. > :02:27.them. There is no doubt the Corporation is being tested.
:02:27. > :02:31.Director-Generar for just a month, George Entwistle found himself in
:02:31. > :02:35.the, at times, clearly uncomfortable position of being
:02:35. > :02:42.grilled for over two hours by MPs, who wanted him to account for what
:02:42. > :02:46.had gone on in the past and the present. The allegations, of course,
:02:46. > :02:49.centre on Savile is a, and the mounting evidence that he was a
:02:50. > :02:54.predatory paedophile. Mr Entwistle began his evidence expressing
:02:54. > :02:58.regret. There is no question in my mind, that what we now know
:02:58. > :03:02.happened was a very, very grave matter indeed. For somebody to have
:03:02. > :03:09.worked for the BBC and at the BBC over a number of decade, and to
:03:09. > :03:12.have been responsible, for what the police describe as an unprecedented
:03:12. > :03:16.scale of child sexual exploitation, there is no question in my mind,
:03:16. > :03:21.this is a very grave matter indeed. But there were clearly many
:03:21. > :03:25.questions that Mr Entwistle couldn't answer. Who in the BBC
:03:25. > :03:28.decided to bus in young, vulnerable girls from institutions to be in
:03:28. > :03:32.the audience of programmes that were being presented by Jimmy
:03:32. > :03:39.Savile? I genuinely don't know the answer to that yet. We are trying
:03:39. > :03:44.to pull together all the documentation we can about, which
:03:44. > :03:46.managers were in positions at the time Jimmy Savile's programmes were
:03:46. > :03:51.being made. We are supplying that information to the police so, they
:03:51. > :03:56.know how to take their investigations forward. But, the
:03:56. > :03:59.Director-Generar insisted, that new child protection procedures in the
:03:59. > :04:03.organisation, that such acts could not now happen. Since the story
:04:03. > :04:09.broke, we heard today, the BBC has received allegations, not just
:04:09. > :04:13.against Jimmy Savile, but nine other BBC or contributor, these
:04:13. > :04:17.allege sexual harassment, assault, or inappropriate conduct. Some of
:04:17. > :04:21.the cases, say the BBC, have been referred to the police. Then MPs
:04:21. > :04:30.came to the decision by Newsnight not to run its investigation into
:04:30. > :04:33.Savile. Last night's BBC Panorama aired interviews with Newsnight
:04:33. > :04:36.staff, concerned with the decision by Newsnight's editor, Peter Rippon,
:04:36. > :04:39.to end their investigation into Savile, despite their having
:04:39. > :04:43.gathered, in their view, significant and compelling
:04:43. > :04:48.testimony. Mr Entwistle, do you now accept, in
:04:48. > :04:51.the light of last night's Panorama, that the decision to drop the
:04:51. > :04:57.Newsnight investigation was a catastrophic mistake. I came away
:04:57. > :05:03.from the Panorama, firmly of the view, that investigation, even if
:05:03. > :05:06.in the judgment of the editor it was not ready for transmis mission
:05:06. > :05:11.-- transmission, at the point he was looking at it, should have been
:05:11. > :05:15.allowed to go ahead. Why do you think the description of events was
:05:15. > :05:19.inaccurate and incomplete. When you want to find out why a programme
:05:19. > :05:22.has not done an investigation, in my long experience of the BBC, you
:05:22. > :05:24.go to the editor of that investigation, or the commissioning
:05:24. > :05:28.editor of the investigation, because they are the people who
:05:28. > :05:30.should know why they commissioned the piece. They should have the
:05:30. > :05:35.most complete picture of why they commissioned the piece. What became
:05:35. > :05:38.clear to us, after the blog was published, of that what had
:05:38. > :05:41.happened to Newsnight, is there was a significant, it seemed,
:05:41. > :05:45.difference of opinion between the people working on the investigation
:05:45. > :05:49.and the editor, Peter Rippon, who commissioned the investigation.
:05:49. > :05:53.This difference of opinion between the account Peter Rippon gave in
:05:53. > :05:58.his blog, and what his staff were saying, led to a trawl of e-mails,
:05:58. > :06:03.leading to the BBC issuing a correcting statement. I have asked
:06:03. > :06:07.Peter Rippon to step aside, because of my disappointment in the nature
:06:07. > :06:14.of the blog, and the inaccracy in the blog.
:06:14. > :06:18.The final area of questioning was about what the director --
:06:18. > :06:21.Director-Generar himself knew. Welcome to Jim'll Fix It.
:06:21. > :06:27.One allegation is the Newsnight investigation was shelved because,
:06:27. > :06:32.as the then head of BBC television, Mr Entwistle, was planning a big
:06:32. > :06:36.Boxing Day tribute to Jimmy Savile. Mr Entwistle said he first was told
:06:36. > :06:39.about the investigation by the BBC's director of news, Helen
:06:39. > :06:43.Boaden. The substance of the conversation was Helen said to me,
:06:43. > :06:48.I wanted to tell you, this is to the best of my recollection, this
:06:48. > :06:51.is a conversation a long time ago. I wanted to tell you that Newsnight
:06:51. > :06:57.are looking at Jimmy Savile, or investigating Jimmy Savile, and if
:06:57. > :07:02.it comes off f it stands up, words to that effect, it may have an
:07:02. > :07:07.impact on your Christmas schedule. And I said, well that is for
:07:07. > :07:11.letting me know, and please update me, and what I meant by that, on
:07:11. > :07:15.whether or not it will be going ahead. You are told that one of the
:07:15. > :07:20.flagship investigative programmes on the BBC is looking into one of
:07:20. > :07:23.the most iconic figures, who you are about to commission huge
:07:23. > :07:29.tributes to, and you don't want to know what it is about? It wasn't
:07:29. > :07:34.because I didn't want to know, what was in my mind was this
:07:34. > :07:39.determination not to show undue interest. But, just saying, thanks,
:07:39. > :07:45.Helen, you know, what are you looking at? Why did she tell you,
:07:45. > :07:48.if you were determined not to ask what it was about. She presumably
:07:48. > :07:52.thought you should know, and would have expected you to say, that is
:07:52. > :07:55.interesting, what is it about? assumed she was prepare me, as
:07:55. > :07:58.indeed she was, to the possibility that I would need to think about
:07:58. > :08:02.changing the schedule. That was the information he took from the
:08:02. > :08:05.conversation. The director general left the
:08:05. > :08:09.committee with still many questions unanswered, two reviews already in
:08:09. > :08:14.place may answer some, but the big question, what this affair will do
:08:14. > :08:17.to public trust in the BBC, will, perhaps, take longer to become
:08:17. > :08:20.clear. No-one from the BBC's senior
:08:20. > :08:26.management wanted to join us tonight, instead we have three
:08:26. > :08:31.people who do, or have worked for the BBC. Bruce Bradley, the former
:08:31. > :08:37.Culture Secretary, and -- Ben Bradshaw, a former member of the
:08:37. > :08:43.BBC and member of the Select Committee, the editor of the Today
:08:43. > :08:48.Programme, and Liz Kershaw who presents for BBC 6. This question
:08:48. > :08:54.of trust that is the key to the whole thing, and does the BBC have
:08:54. > :08:58.confidence in the BBC. How much danger are we in? The basic scandal
:08:58. > :09:00.of Jimmy Savile and child abuse, and also the way the BBC has
:09:00. > :09:05.handled it. I don't think it is irreparable, but George Entwistle
:09:05. > :09:08.needs to get a grip. Needs to assemble the facts and make himself
:09:08. > :09:12.confident in those facts, he needs to act on them and quickly. Do you
:09:12. > :09:15.feel, from what you saw today, that George Entwistle is the man to
:09:15. > :09:18.restore confidence? It didn't appear so today. I mean, you have
:09:19. > :09:24.to feel a little bit sorry for the bloke in that he has only been in
:09:24. > :09:27.the job a short time, and he has to go before a bunch of well-trained,
:09:27. > :09:32.these days, MPs, on the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee.
:09:32. > :09:37.But, there are two problems, and I think one of them is, I think the
:09:37. > :09:41.Director-Generar looks as if he's guilty of hanging the editor of
:09:41. > :09:46.Newsnight out to dry. Much as indeed some members of your staff
:09:46. > :09:53.are hanging the editor of their programme out to dry. Who says the
:09:53. > :09:56.decision was his alone? The problem for Entwistle is he orders this
:09:56. > :10:03.inquiry, which is to be unbiased and unpartisan, to look into what
:10:03. > :10:08.happened, and then, before the MPs, he dobs Entwistle in. Rippon you
:10:08. > :10:11.are talking about. Rippon, he says that Peter Rippon should have run
:10:11. > :10:15.that programme. How does he know, he hasn't seen the programme.
:10:15. > :10:19.said continue with it, he didn't say run it. He hasn't seen the
:10:19. > :10:22.programme. I know you are a long way away in New York, do you think
:10:22. > :10:28.public confidence is being eroded in the BBC? Well, definitely back
:10:28. > :10:32.home, but I can say here, no. When I was entering through immigration
:10:32. > :10:41.and custom, I was asked what I did for a job, and said I worked for
:10:41. > :10:46.the BBC, and the guy said, oh I love Morse, and you're in. Those in
:10:46. > :10:51.ITV got shoved to the back of the queue! I asked today a friend is
:10:51. > :10:55.the Savile thing getting a lot of coverage. And I was told, no, it's
:10:55. > :11:04.not like he's in Downton Abbey, that sort of thing. We are OK on a
:11:04. > :11:09.global scale, but back home people are definitely suspicious. Peter
:11:09. > :11:12.Rippon it has been accused that he was left out to dry. He gave an
:11:12. > :11:16.account of his reasons for dropping the investigation, any Director-
:11:16. > :11:22.Generar in that position would feel very let down as George Entwistle
:11:22. > :11:26.does feel let down. He went further than, that and he said there is to
:11:26. > :11:29.be an unbiased inquiry into what happened. The other two important
:11:30. > :11:33.points, and this is where the trouble might lie in the future, I
:11:33. > :11:38.find it very difficult to accept there was no pressure whatsoever on
:11:38. > :11:44.Rippon, because of those two e-mail, which we now know about. One from
:11:44. > :11:48.Liz MacKean to her friend, which said, which had Peter Rippon quoted
:11:48. > :11:51.as saying there is a long political chain attached to this. And the
:11:51. > :12:00.other statement to Meirion Jones, which is the bosses weren't very
:12:00. > :12:05.happy. Why would he say that if there were not some form, possibly
:12:05. > :12:08.entirely justifiable interpeerpbs, but. We hope whatever --
:12:08. > :12:13.Interference. We hope whatever happens in the inquiry that would
:12:13. > :12:17.be found out? It is thought to be prejudged that Rippon has been
:12:17. > :12:21.stepped aside, I don't know what that means, you might know, he's
:12:21. > :12:24.your boss. I don't know either, I assume it is voluntary, as an
:12:24. > :12:27.alternative to being compulsory. I don't know, I don't understand. As
:12:27. > :12:34.far as the general public are concerned, that is one small aspect
:12:34. > :12:38.of the story, isn't it? Does this perpetual spectacle of day after
:12:38. > :12:44.day, the BBC beating itself up, do anything to help matters? No, that
:12:44. > :12:49.is why George Entwistle needs to get a grip, assemble the facts and
:12:49. > :12:53.act on those facts, we can't wait on the independent Pollard Review.
:12:53. > :12:56.The longer this is about the BBC's handling about this, the more it is
:12:56. > :13:00.not about the victim, them getting their voice heard, and them getting
:13:00. > :13:04.justice, about the real scandal, which is how Jimmy Savile, and
:13:04. > :13:08.possibly others, managed to abuse them, with impunity, over decade.
:13:08. > :13:13.That is the important thing in all of this, isn't it? Of course it is,
:13:13. > :13:16.but the tail spin was caused by the bureaucrats not knowing how to
:13:16. > :13:20.handle, what was actually quite a simple issue. There is nothing
:13:20. > :13:24.wrong with an editor saying I don't like that piece it is not running,
:13:24. > :13:27.nor with the senior manager saying are you running this piece on Jimmy
:13:27. > :13:32.Savile, we have something coming up. That is perfectly reasonable, it is
:13:32. > :13:38.the tail spin, it is the denial, it is the hiding away, it is the false
:13:38. > :13:46.statements, that is what undermines trust. You are right, it it must
:13:46. > :13:50.get so boring every night. It is only news too! George Entwistle
:13:50. > :13:54.today broadened this, he apologised producely for stuff that didn't
:13:54. > :13:59.happen on his watch, a long time ago, it was really in your end of
:13:59. > :14:02.the business. In the pop end of things, and he then went on to say
:14:02. > :14:07.that there was an on goings investigation, I think he said nine
:14:07. > :14:12.people, for sexual harassment, and possible assault and that sort of
:14:12. > :14:17.thing. Has the culture changed in your end of the business? To some
:14:17. > :14:24.extent. I have to say that I was really impressed when I went to see
:14:24. > :14:29.George Entwistle. Because he was very honest with me, and said, Liz,
:14:29. > :14:34.I don't know anything about radio, I don't know anything about Radio 1
:14:34. > :14:38.and its culture down the decades, he was very interested in what hi
:14:38. > :14:43.to say. He was obvious -- I had to say. He was obviously keen to get
:14:43. > :14:48.any help he could, this shocked me, with assembling a cast of
:14:48. > :14:52.characters at the time. It amazed me that he was saying there was no
:14:52. > :14:55.formal record within the BBC of who was managing Radio 1 at that time,
:14:55. > :15:01.who the producers were, who the executives were, who the controller
:15:01. > :15:07.was. I wrote down a list of names for him, and he asked me was this
:15:07. > :15:13.guy still alive, and this guy's name has come up a lot, who's he.
:15:13. > :15:18.He said he wanted today get to the bottom of the culture. Did he call
:15:18. > :15:24.you? After I appeared on the Today Programme, I got calls from all
:15:24. > :15:29.layers of the BBC managers, and I said, no, I'm not doing this, I
:15:29. > :15:35.want to see George Entwistle. He saw me. This is how you revealed
:15:35. > :15:43.that you had been groped on air by a DJ? That was one of the things I
:15:43. > :15:47.said. I said there was endemic sexism, and if you were a woman,
:15:47. > :15:51.the way they kept you in your place was to use your gender against you,
:15:51. > :15:56.that's the point I was trying to make. But it has changed, hasn't it,
:15:56. > :16:01.at least I hope it has changed? it's changed. But it is still a
:16:01. > :16:04.problem, I think, that is a legacy of that. And George Entwistle is
:16:04. > :16:08.aware of that. I was really inspired by his comments that he's
:16:08. > :16:12.going to look into how women, in radio, particularly, are still
:16:12. > :16:17.treated. Because, for example, I don't want to bother you with facts,
:16:17. > :16:22.but only 17 perverse presenters on the BBC's big three music stations
:16:22. > :16:29.are women. There hasn't been a woman on daytime Radio Two for 17
:16:29. > :16:33.years. Only 26% of output by local radio is by female, and there isn't
:16:33. > :16:36.one, can I just make this point, there isn't one BBC breakfast show
:16:36. > :16:41.in the country, 54 of them, presented by a woman, that is
:16:41. > :16:45.something he said he would look at. Perhaps if somebody had spoken to
:16:45. > :16:49.Liz MacKean, as they spoke to this Liz, the BBC might not be in the
:16:49. > :16:53.crisis it is in now. I want to say one other thing. In one of the
:16:54. > :16:57.things Peter Rippon said, he said, when he decided, the editor of
:16:57. > :17:01.Newsnight, when he decided to junk the investigation, he referred to
:17:01. > :17:07.the evidence being weak, because we only had the women, only the women.
:17:07. > :17:13.This is toxic. He didn't mean, come on Ben. This is, I'm afraid,
:17:13. > :17:18.totally fatal for him. That is hypersensitive. How can you refer
:17:18. > :17:22.to "only the women". Let me answer. He could have used only the
:17:22. > :17:29.victims? He could have done, he said "only the women", there were
:17:29. > :17:33.more women than he fesed up to. are going -- We are going to
:17:33. > :17:36.explore the question of child protection in a moment, there is a
:17:36. > :17:39.question whether people can believe BBC News any more? There are
:17:39. > :17:44.questions about this, the outstanding questions from George
:17:44. > :17:47.Entwistle's evidence today, is serious questions for BBC News
:17:47. > :17:50.management. What were the people doing inbetween George Entwistle at
:17:50. > :17:54.the top and Peter Rippon as editor of Newsnight. Lots of questions
:17:54. > :17:57.about that, still not resolved. you believe it? Generally I believe
:17:57. > :18:02.it. Two things will come out of this, you know what they are, I
:18:02. > :18:05.know what they are. One, if editor's have any sense, never,
:18:05. > :18:09.ever refer up in the BBC, it will be trouble. More than, that once
:18:09. > :18:13.the inquiry is out of the way, what will happen at the end, is it will
:18:13. > :18:17.be much, much more difficult to do the sort of journalism that you lot
:18:17. > :18:23.were doing. Because people will be far more cautious as consequence.
:18:23. > :18:30.The most sickening aspect of the whole deck backle is the attitude
:18:30. > :18:33.that seems to have been taken by some -- debacle is the attitude
:18:33. > :18:38.that seems to have been taken by some, is that the people shouldn't
:18:38. > :18:42.have been taken seriously because they are victims. There is a
:18:42. > :18:46.problem of identifying offenders before they attack again. Might it
:18:46. > :18:50.be better to adopt the system in place in Australia, Ireland and the
:18:50. > :18:59.US, and make it an offence not to report incidents of sexuality
:18:59. > :19:02.exploitation. There were 200 potential victim,
:19:02. > :19:06.dozens of witnesses, yet Jimmy Savile managed to live to 84
:19:06. > :19:11.without being arrested. The abuse took place, not just at the BBC,
:19:11. > :19:16.but in hospitals, and children's homes across the country. So why
:19:16. > :19:20.didn't anyone report it? Why didn't those witnesses come forward?
:19:20. > :19:24.finding a lot of schools and institutions, such as the BBC,
:19:24. > :19:28.would much rather hide the abuse, and allow the abuser to continue,
:19:28. > :19:33.rather than actually report it, because then it would damage their
:19:33. > :19:36.reputation. We have no clearer evidence of that than the recent
:19:36. > :19:40.trouble we have had with Jimmy Savile.
:19:40. > :19:45.There are, of course, safeguards in place, meant to protect young
:19:45. > :19:55.people. Any organisation that works with children, has to put in place
:19:55. > :19:59.
:19:59. > :20:05.In Britain, there is no legal duty to report that abuse, either to the
:20:05. > :20:08.police or to social services. The answer, some say, is to compel
:20:08. > :20:16.witnesses to come forward, to make it a criminal offence not to pass
:20:16. > :20:20.on those allegations to the authorities.
:20:20. > :20:24.Last week, 32 child protection groups, barristers and church
:20:24. > :20:27.leaders, wrote to the Times, calling for that change in the law.
:20:27. > :20:31.They want to see mandatory reporting of child abuse
:20:31. > :20:36.allegations, as is already the case in the US, Canada, Australia and
:20:36. > :20:40.Ireland. If we had mandatory reporting we
:20:40. > :20:44.would obviously, all abusers would be identified before they could
:20:44. > :20:49.continue their abuse, and we know, we know that child abusers very
:20:49. > :20:53.rarely only abuse once. Child abuse happens in institutions, nationwide,
:20:53. > :20:57.and without mandatory reporting, we can't possibly know the scale of it.
:20:57. > :21:01.Many victims and other campaigners say a similar system in the UK
:21:01. > :21:04.would give people more confidence to come forward. We spoke to one
:21:05. > :21:09.teacher, who said her complaints about a fellow member of staff were
:21:09. > :21:12.not passed on by the school to the authorities.
:21:12. > :21:16.I followed the correct procedure, which was to report this to the
:21:16. > :21:19.designated person that every school has, over time I began to suspect
:21:19. > :21:23.it hadn't been reported to the local authority. It is almost seen
:21:23. > :21:27.as a bad thing to report something. There is a culture of just covering
:21:27. > :21:32.things up, and burying your head in the sand, and hoping it will go
:21:32. > :21:38.away. But, there are strong arguments
:21:38. > :21:41.against any change in the law. Last year Eileen Monroe chaired a wide-
:21:41. > :21:44.ranging Government review of child protection. We have a strong
:21:44. > :21:47.culture within organisations that they should make report, and we
:21:47. > :21:52.have statutory guidance that says they have a duty to make reports,
:21:52. > :21:55.and that they should have a policy within any organisation that has
:21:55. > :21:58.contact with children to help people talk through, is this
:21:58. > :22:03.something to worry about, and then to know how to report it. Our
:22:03. > :22:07.system is ending up with about the same rate of referrals as the
:22:07. > :22:11.countries with mandatory reporting. So there is no statistical evidence
:22:11. > :22:15.to suggest that we are missing more serious cases than in the countries
:22:15. > :22:20.with mandatory reporting. Large children's charities are also
:22:20. > :22:24.against any change in the law. The NSPCC claims there is no solid
:22:24. > :22:28.evidence that mandatory reporting work, and it might just clutter up
:22:28. > :22:31.the system with extra unproven allegations. Newsnight understands,
:22:31. > :22:35.though, that the organisation may now conduct a review of that
:22:35. > :22:39.position, in the light of the Savile scandal.
:22:39. > :22:43.And the experience of mandatory reporting, in other countries, has
:22:43. > :22:48.been mixed at best. In Australia critics of the law say it has led
:22:48. > :22:52.to a huge increase in abuse case, overwhelming the child protection
:22:52. > :22:55.system, and takinging resources away from other areas -- taking
:22:55. > :22:59.resources away from other areas of social work like family support.
:22:59. > :23:02.Child protection workers on both sides of the argument agree on one
:23:02. > :23:07.thing, more does need to be done to change the culture of reporting
:23:07. > :23:10.abuse. I think there is a certain amount of crowd mentality, there is
:23:10. > :23:13.a sense, with the Savile case, it appears as if a large number of
:23:13. > :23:17.people knew about it, so any one individual would have thought that
:23:17. > :23:21.others know about it, and they haven't done anything, perhaps I
:23:21. > :23:25.shouldn't. There is that research of somebody on the street, having
:23:25. > :23:28.been injured, and people walk past, and other people then walk past. We
:23:28. > :23:32.end up behaving with immense callousness, because we are
:23:33. > :23:38.following the crowd behaviour. you think the culture of society
:23:38. > :23:41.has changed against 1975? It is certainly certainly changing for
:23:41. > :23:45.the better, we should not feel smug. There is a lot of progress that
:23:45. > :23:49.needs to be made. The world may have changed since Savile ruled the
:23:50. > :23:55.airwave, but today victims and witnesses say, they are still often
:23:55. > :24:02.treated with suspicion, as accusers and troublemakers. Do we do enough
:24:02. > :24:07.to protect the most vulnerable in our society my guests are here.
:24:07. > :24:10.What do you think of this idea, mandatory reporting? I would think
:24:10. > :24:17.it was quite a good idea, if I believed our systems could cope
:24:17. > :24:21.with it. But right now, our child protection system is completely at
:24:21. > :24:25.breaking point. You have to look at the fact that Birmingham has failed
:24:25. > :24:28.as a child protection social services, and then there are others
:24:29. > :24:33.who have failed. Then if you get this kind of mandatory reporting
:24:33. > :24:36.happening as well, the whole system will completely collapse.
:24:36. > :24:40.principle you are favour of it, it is just the mechanics? In general,
:24:40. > :24:45.we have to look at the issue of vulnerable children in this country,
:24:45. > :24:50.and our politicians need to stand up and have a vision in relation to
:24:50. > :24:54.issues of child protection in this country. You don't think it is a
:24:54. > :24:59.desirable thing? No, I think it is worth saying, that I don't think
:24:59. > :25:04.that child sexual abuse is rife, and I do not think that it is on
:25:04. > :25:07.the rise. Actually, I'm very nervous about the climate at the
:25:07. > :25:14.moment that is ratchetting up the discussion, because of what has
:25:14. > :25:20.happened around one very nasty, horrible case, the Jimmy Savile
:25:20. > :25:24.case. Mandatory reporting, it would be in danger of, effectively,
:25:24. > :25:29.having every rumour, every suspicion, go to the authorities.
:25:29. > :25:33.And I think that will create a climate of finger-pointing. Every
:25:33. > :25:38.adult interaction with a child could potentially be seen in a very
:25:38. > :25:42.unhelpful way. You have a pattern of repeat behaviour by these people.
:25:43. > :25:46.If you can get the first case on a file somewhere, doesn't it save
:25:46. > :25:51.other children? I think there is a serious danger of taking this case,
:25:51. > :25:57.and because of a variety of people ratchetting it up, and a kind of
:25:57. > :26:00.blood lust in the air. There is a danger of a witch-hunt? Instead of
:26:00. > :26:04.very serious case of protecting children, what we are going to do
:26:04. > :26:08.is do children a great disservice, now, we have already heard it on
:26:08. > :26:12.this programme this evening, we conflate a whole range of different
:26:12. > :26:19.things, sexism in the BBC, the lack of female presenter. That has
:26:19. > :26:24.really confused all of that, I agree. It was in the inquiry today.
:26:25. > :26:28.I am a making the point. I do think that child abuse is a serious
:26:28. > :26:31.problem in this country. The Children's Commissioner is about to
:26:31. > :26:35.release a report decribing wide scale abuse of girls in street
:26:35. > :26:41.gangs. We have to redefine our child abuse in this country, it is
:26:41. > :26:45.no longer limited to families. It is quite endemic in certain areas
:26:45. > :26:48.and it has to be addressed. We have already got to a situation in this
:26:48. > :26:52.country, where parents are afraid to let their children out to play.
:26:52. > :26:55.That is a different argument. You can't use that argument.
:26:55. > :27:00.allowed to use the argument I use, you can't tell me what argument I
:27:00. > :27:04.do. You go ahead and finish it, I think you are wrong. Teachers in
:27:04. > :27:06.school are frightened to let parents to take photos in sports
:27:06. > :27:10.days, we have criminal record checks that effectively meant you
:27:10. > :27:14.had to have a license to work with children. Voluntary Organisations
:27:14. > :27:17.frightened to work with children. This is not an atmosphere. This is
:27:17. > :27:21.a flawed argument. It is an argument that you disagree with,
:27:21. > :27:24.that doesn't make it flawed, there are two sides to this argument.
:27:24. > :27:26.are talking about a normal situation, which is adults being
:27:26. > :27:30.with children, you are saying, because there are allegations
:27:30. > :27:34.around that, that the issue of child protection. I'm suggesting
:27:34. > :27:39.unless we calm down. We agreed we were going to let me speak, next.
:27:39. > :27:42.There is an issue here, which is, that there is a problem with child
:27:42. > :27:47.protx in this country. It doesn't - - protection in this country. It
:27:47. > :27:50.doesn't mean that adults being with children in a perfectly OK way,
:27:50. > :27:56.should be addressed in an axe say thery manner. But nevertheless,
:27:56. > :27:59.there is a problem in this country, and we're blind to it. When in
:27:59. > :28:04.Rochdale the police and social services are decribing girls who
:28:04. > :28:07.are being sexually abused as making a lifestyle choice, it is a problem.
:28:07. > :28:10.I don't think society should be reorganised around child protection.
:28:10. > :28:16.The question here is about how one protects children, and part of that
:28:16. > :28:20.has to be, has it not, to do with the belief, the credibility that is
:28:20. > :28:23.attached to accounts these children give. Time after time, and it has
:28:23. > :28:28.happened in this latest BBC business, there is some question
:28:28. > :28:31.mark placed over the testimony of the victims, precisely because they
:28:31. > :28:36.are victims. How do you get around that? We have to be very careful,
:28:36. > :28:41.as well, that we don't say people have the right to be listened to
:28:41. > :28:44.and believed per se. You have to bear in mind that when people say
:28:44. > :28:46.something happened, you have to then see whether you make a
:28:46. > :28:50.decision about what weather you proceed with it. Because, for
:28:50. > :28:54.example, just to use that example, children can say all sorts of
:28:54. > :28:57.things, adults can say all sorts of things, there is a lot of rumours
:28:57. > :29:00.on Twitter at the moment about all sorts of people, do you want to
:29:00. > :29:04.live in a society where rumour and finger-pointing, where people who
:29:04. > :29:08.say, I'm a victim, means that the police have to be reported to. That
:29:08. > :29:11.everything has to be acted on. That we look at each other all the time
:29:11. > :29:16.as though something terrible is occurring. You won't like that
:29:16. > :29:21.world either? The very serious incidents, in the very mine
:29:21. > :29:24.instances that they happen, of child abuse, will be drowned out by
:29:24. > :29:29.an absolute clamming of people not knowing what we are meant to be
:29:29. > :29:33.pointing our fingers at. One child being abused is one too many, you
:29:33. > :29:38.cannot call it minor. It is a problem, because there is an
:29:38. > :29:42.endemic power imbalance. Children cannot hold adults accountable for
:29:42. > :29:45.their safety. Adults do have to take that responsibility. We are
:29:45. > :29:51.not taking that responsibility robust low. We will leave it there
:29:51. > :29:56.for the time being, thank you both very much.
:29:56. > :29:59.Mr Brock breathes easely the platoons of gunmen to be let loose
:29:59. > :30:04.on badgers in England, are being held off. This is not, the
:30:04. > :30:08.Government assures us, a change of policy of how to control TB in cow,
:30:08. > :30:11.ministers have been just caught out by unpredictable things, the
:30:11. > :30:19.Olympics, the weather and the fact it is October. The excuse hasn't
:30:19. > :30:24.been cancelled, merely postponed. It has been described by some as a
:30:24. > :30:28.good day to bury badger news. Certainly for our team on the
:30:28. > :30:33.ground in Gloucestershire, the badgers themselves chose to stay
:30:33. > :30:36.buried. They are nocternal. Here are some the BBC filmed earlier.
:30:36. > :30:41.For the farmer here, who had signed up to take part in one of the two
:30:41. > :30:44.trial areas, it has not been a great day. We're hugely
:30:44. > :30:47.disappointed, absolutely devastated. The farmers in the Gloucestershire
:30:48. > :30:52.cull area were ready to go, the contractors were ready to go. But
:30:52. > :30:56.farmers in the whole of the West Country will be disappointed, it
:30:56. > :31:04.just delays the roll out of further work we have to do to bring this
:31:04. > :31:07.disease and badgers under control. Even anti-cull campaigners were
:31:07. > :31:12.breathing only a cautious sigh of relief. The cull had been due to
:31:12. > :31:15.start within days. We last minute the plug has been pulled. But
:31:15. > :31:20.obviously we're very relieved to find that. But there are
:31:20. > :31:24.alternatives out there, and time is still against us. We're not
:31:24. > :31:30.complacent. We are going to keep calm and carry on with this. Let's
:31:30. > :31:35.get this sorted, let's get the vaccination out there. So, what's
:31:35. > :31:40.really going on here? According to the scientist, for a cull to be
:31:40. > :31:44.most effective, between 70-80% of animals must be killed T has been
:31:44. > :31:46.clear in recent days how many badgers would be involved. And
:31:47. > :31:52.farmers have to pay for each of those to be killed. As the numbers
:31:52. > :31:58.have gone up, so too have the costs. The original estimate for the two
:31:58. > :32:02.proposed cull areas was that they were dealing with a total of 4,500
:32:03. > :32:07.animal, that was revised last week to close to 8,000.
:32:07. > :32:10.In the House today, Environment Secretary, Owen Paterson, said bad
:32:10. > :32:15.weather and the Olympics were behind his announcement that the
:32:15. > :32:20.cull was called off. And placed the focus firmly on farmers and the
:32:20. > :32:24.contractors who would have actual low had to pull the trigger.
:32:24. > :32:29.actually had to pull the trigger. Today I have received a letter on
:32:29. > :32:33.behalf of the NFU, on behalf of the companies performing the culls,
:32:33. > :32:36.explaining why they don't feel they can go ahead this year, and
:32:36. > :32:42.requesting they be postponed until next summer. In these circumstances,
:32:42. > :32:46.it is the right thing to do, and as the people who have to have to
:32:46. > :32:49.deliver this policy on the ground. And work within the science, I
:32:49. > :32:55.respect their decision. He was adamant this is not a change in
:32:55. > :32:58.policy, just a delay. For Labour, Mary Creagh couldn't resist
:32:58. > :33:03.gloating. Labour has warned the Government for two years that the
:33:03. > :33:09.badger cull was bad for farmers, bad for tax tears, and bad for
:33:09. > :33:14.wildlife. And in addition, the Government's handling of the cull
:33:14. > :33:18.has been -- tax-payers, and bad for wildlife. And in addiction, the
:33:18. > :33:21.Government's handling of the cull has been shambolic, it is right it
:33:21. > :33:24.is delayed. The science of the cull has been much picked over, with
:33:24. > :33:28.both sides of the debate claiming to have science on their side. In
:33:28. > :33:33.the House today both Government and opposition quoted the same
:33:33. > :33:35.scientists, how can that be? I have been told that, in fact, there is
:33:35. > :33:43.little disagreement among the scientists who have looked at this.
:33:43. > :33:50.A cull will have only a limited impact. A net reduction of herd
:33:50. > :33:55.infections of some 12-16%, in nine years, in the 250km-square cull
:33:55. > :33:58.trial areas. The scientists that led the key trials OJ badgers,
:33:58. > :34:02.thought he now believes culling to be irrelevant and a distraction,
:34:02. > :34:07.and vaccination and biosecurity will, instead, be at the heart of
:34:07. > :34:12.any strategy to deal with TB in the UK. All the scientific experts that
:34:12. > :34:17.I know, agree, that long-term, large scale killing of badgers, has
:34:17. > :34:20.a relatively small effect on reducing TB in cattle. I very much
:34:20. > :34:24.hope the Government uses the delay as an opportunity to reconsider the
:34:24. > :34:28.policy. Because killing badgers is not really going to make an
:34:28. > :34:32.effective contribution to TB eradication.
:34:32. > :34:36.The Government says its goal is to protect cattle from what it
:34:36. > :34:39.describes as a serious animal health problem that is devastating
:34:39. > :34:43.for farmer, and its policy is science-led. The 30 or so
:34:43. > :34:48.scientists who wrote to the Sunday papers last week, urging a re-think,
:34:48. > :34:54.might not agree. They warned that licensed culling risks increasing
:34:54. > :35:00.cattle TB, rather than reducing it. Neither side has yet won the battle
:35:00. > :35:03.of the badger outright. How long will this delay be. Peter Kendall
:35:03. > :35:11.is President of the National Farmers' Union, and Dr Brian May is
:35:11. > :35:16.from the pressure group Team Badger? Team Badger. When exactly
:35:16. > :35:20.did you decide now that the cull is a bad idea? It is not a bad idea.
:35:20. > :35:23.Bad idea to do it now? It is the time of year. A week ago yesterday,
:35:23. > :35:27.Monday last week, we learned that the Government agency had decided,
:35:27. > :35:31.or through a survey, that there were twice as many badgers to need
:35:31. > :35:34.to be controlled in a very short period of time. And, look, Jeremy.
:35:34. > :35:39.The decision to have the cull of based on incomplete evidence,
:35:39. > :35:43.clearly? We were given, and we have been working on one set of numbers,
:35:44. > :35:48.and late in the day, we were given some new numbers. But this is not
:35:48. > :35:51.like turning a tap on and off. This is the countryside. Farmers and
:35:51. > :35:54.landowners were not prepared to have anybody turn up and shoot
:35:54. > :35:58.badgers. We needed the right resource in the right place. I
:35:58. > :36:03.believe it is the poncable thing to do is to say actual low, if the
:36:03. > :36:07.conditions are wrong, you re-think. So, it is not a reprieve, it is
:36:07. > :36:10.merely a postponed execution? not what we wanted, but it is
:36:10. > :36:14.welcome, because these badgers are living instead of dying at the
:36:14. > :36:17.moment. We have a lot of breathing space to make our case, our case is
:36:17. > :36:24.that culling was never going to do much good any way. What we should
:36:24. > :36:28.be doing is putting all our resources into vaccination, not
:36:29. > :36:32.only badgers but cow, that is what I would love to work with you on in
:36:32. > :36:38.the next few months. We are told that vaccination of cows is years
:36:38. > :36:40.away, I don't believe that. What do you think? We would love to see a
:36:40. > :36:43.vaccination programme. Presumably would you prefer vaccination to
:36:43. > :36:48.execution? If we can have a vaccination, we would have it,
:36:48. > :36:54.tomorrow. But look, wherever TB is in cattle or anywhere in the world,
:36:54. > :36:57.they have had to control the reservoir of the disease in the
:36:57. > :37:01.wildlife. I would dispute that. What about the scientists saying
:37:01. > :37:05.there is no evidence of it? chief vet in DEFRA is adamant we
:37:05. > :37:09.need to do this, the chief vet in Wales has advocated this sort of
:37:09. > :37:15.policy. There are plenty of scientists. I'm not necessarily
:37:15. > :37:20.expert in the control of disease in wildlife, the experts also.
:37:20. > :37:23.would you think people want to go around shooting badgers? If I was a
:37:24. > :37:28.farmer I would be frustrated and upset, this is going on for so long,
:37:28. > :37:32.and it is we have to do something. That something is not killing
:37:33. > :37:35.badgers. What's the matter? I'm asking you, do you think they are
:37:35. > :37:39.mad or something? I don't think they areed mad, it is an emotional
:37:39. > :37:44.response. You see a badger and you know the badger has the same
:37:44. > :37:49.disease as your cows, it started in the cows, you think I will get rid
:37:49. > :37:55.of the badger t will solve our problem. The research has been done.
:37:55. > :38:03.This country spent �pun 50 million on the RBCT trial, and the result
:38:03. > :38:07.was that culling of badgers doesn't affect controlling bovine TB in
:38:08. > :38:11.cows. It is cheap Tory shoot them than vaccinate them? It is not a
:38:11. > :38:14.viable option today. It could be. There could be lots of solutions in
:38:14. > :38:18.the future. At the moment this disease is doubling every nine
:38:18. > :38:22.years, and last year it took 34,000 cattle. We have to start. If you
:38:22. > :38:32.look at the spread of TB, it fans out across the country, exact low
:38:32. > :38:33.
:38:33. > :38:37.as populations of badgers increase. That is an assumption. I don't
:38:37. > :38:41.believe badgers are the problem. Even the badger tru Trust.
:38:41. > :38:47.could kill every badger and you would still have bovine TB in cow,
:38:47. > :38:51.the best you can do by killing every badger is supposedly 15%
:38:51. > :38:55.improvement, you could make it worse what cull. A cull is not a
:38:55. > :38:59.solution, vaccination is a solution. I want to talk to you after this to
:38:59. > :39:02.see if we can work together on this. This cull, in the meantime will
:39:02. > :39:06.happen? It is not going to happen. Personally I think the Government
:39:06. > :39:11.would be too embarrassed to go through this again, I would hate to
:39:11. > :39:15.do this again. It is dead in the water. This was gefr never going to
:39:15. > :39:17.work, it is impractical, it is not based on science, and against the
:39:18. > :39:22.wishes of the British people, you can see by the petition. Are you
:39:22. > :39:26.certain it is going to happen next year? All I can go on is the strong
:39:26. > :39:30.words said by the Secretary of State today on the floor of the
:39:30. > :39:34.House. He was clear and unequivocal about his commitment. Politics we
:39:34. > :39:37.know can change massively in the next nine month. Don't you think he
:39:37. > :39:42.has a different agenda than you. You guys are sincere and honest and
:39:42. > :39:48.have a living to make. Don't you feel you are in bed with someone
:39:48. > :39:52.who has a different motivation? always nervous how politicians
:39:52. > :39:58.operate when they need re-election. Owen Paterson comes from an area
:39:58. > :40:03.that is riddled with TB, he has one of the biggest dairy companies in
:40:03. > :40:08.his constituency, and he knows we need a viable industry here. We
:40:08. > :40:11.can't leave it. No-one is saying that, we are saying vaccinate.
:40:11. > :40:17.is not available. I believe it can be available in months rather than
:40:17. > :40:24.years. I want to talk to you about it. It is one of those rather you
:40:24. > :40:27.than me things, stepping out of a balloon many miles in the air.
:40:27. > :40:32.Felix Baumgartner said that was the one thing he definitely had to do
:40:32. > :40:39.in his life, unusual to say the least. It was watched on
:40:39. > :40:44.smartphones and iPhones by 1.8 billion people. But what was the
:40:44. > :40:49.point. When George Mallory was asked why anyone would want to
:40:49. > :40:53.climb Mount Everest, he said it was because it was there. I wonder if
:40:53. > :41:00.Felix Baumgartner felt the same. The door is open, Felix. What
:41:00. > :41:04.person in their right mind would find themselves alone, but for a
:41:04. > :41:10.disembodied voice over 24 miles above the earth. Slide the seat
:41:10. > :41:14.forward. The highest manned balloon flight, was just a preamble to be
:41:14. > :41:18.the first human being to break the sound barrier without a vehicle.
:41:18. > :41:22.Felix Baumgartner, Fearless Felix, has made a career out of pushing
:41:22. > :41:27.the boundaries of human flight. We are told the entire event took
:41:27. > :41:31.place in the name of science. Before the long assent, in a
:41:31. > :41:34.specially-designed cap actual, Felix Baumgartner's body had been
:41:34. > :41:40.fitted with a -- capsule, Felix Baumgartner's body had been fitted
:41:40. > :41:45.with a number of measures to monitor how the human body copes
:41:45. > :41:49.with sustained free fall and supersonic acceleration or
:41:49. > :41:53.deceleration. To stop his blood boiling, his lungs exploding and
:41:53. > :41:58.his body disintegrating, he wears a pressurised suit. And the whole
:41:58. > :42:03.thing is funded by a soft drinks manufacturer.
:42:03. > :42:06.Start the cameras. Our guardian angel will take care
:42:06. > :42:12.of you. Felix Baumgartner, why did you want
:42:12. > :42:16.to do this? Well, you know, I have been, I have always been a very
:42:16. > :42:20.competitive person, since I was 16 years old I started skydiving, I
:42:20. > :42:26.always wanted to push the limits. That is the reason why I was
:42:26. > :42:31.working on this so hard. It is not like competing at tennis or at pool,
:42:31. > :42:37.or a running race, is it. To put yourself on the edge of space,
:42:37. > :42:42.miles and miles up, I mean, that's completely different? It is, but
:42:42. > :42:46.this is what make it so unique and challenging. If you look at my
:42:46. > :42:50.background as a base jumper, at a certain point I felt there was nole
:42:50. > :42:56.challenge left. I had done all the highest -- there was no challenge
:42:56. > :43:00.left. I had done all the highest buildings in the world. I felt lost
:43:00. > :43:04.and no challenge any more, and working on this has been a total
:43:04. > :43:08.low different ball game. I had to learn everything from scratch, I
:43:08. > :43:11.was not a scientist or a properly trained astronaut. I started
:43:11. > :43:16.everything from zero, that was the challenge. What is it like, when
:43:16. > :43:24.you are up there, all alop, looking down on the earth -- alone, looking
:43:24. > :43:29.down on the earth from a tremendous height. What is it like? When I was
:43:29. > :43:35.standing outside, it was a very calm and quiet moment, very
:43:35. > :43:38.peaceful. The view was totally outstanding and unique. At the same
:43:38. > :43:44.time you realise everything around you is very hostile. I couldn't
:43:44. > :43:48.stand there for a long time. As soon as I disconnected my oxygen
:43:48. > :43:52.hose from the ship's system, I only breathe out of the oxygen bottles
:43:52. > :43:57.on the back pack, they provided oxygen for ten minutes. I had to go
:43:58. > :44:02.off as fast as I can. You could have got this view from
:44:02. > :44:08.just looking at pictures, but you felt you some how had to see it
:44:08. > :44:13.yourself? I have seen all the footage we created on that day, and
:44:13. > :44:18.I have to say, it's really unique footage, but it is nothing in
:44:18. > :44:23.comparison with what I saw. I saw it for real, you know. I think I'm
:44:23. > :44:27.the only person who has that image in my mind. But when your body is
:44:27. > :44:31.spinning in the way we have seen it spinning from the footage, you
:44:31. > :44:38.could black out or something, anything could happen? You could
:44:38. > :44:41.black out, or mostly you could ride out, if you have a flat spin, you
:44:41. > :44:45.could have a red out, when the blood goes toe your brain we call
:44:45. > :44:50.it a red out. We create safety equipment for that kind of fatality.
:44:50. > :44:57.We had a G-force meeter, that is constantly measuring the G-force on
:44:57. > :45:02.your body. If it goes over the certain limit it fires a chute and
:45:02. > :45:05.that will pull you out of the spin. What did we learn out of it? Nobody
:45:05. > :45:11.thought before it was possible as a human person to break the speed of
:45:11. > :45:17.sound. We proved that to the whole world. Again, nobody really thought
:45:17. > :45:20.a safe bail out from 130,000 feet and the re-entry is possible or
:45:20. > :45:26.surviveable. We were also testing the next generation spacesuit.
:45:26. > :45:31.do you want to do next, then? Breaking the speed of light!
:45:31. > :45:35.would like to see that very much. Honestly, I think it is time to
:45:35. > :45:39.move on. I want to inspire the next generation, and maybe in 40 years
:45:39. > :45:43.another guy will call me up and say Mr Baumgartner I want to break your
:45:43. > :45:46.record. I will support that guy. In the meantime I'm flying helicopter,
:45:47. > :45:50.I'm also a commercial helicopter pilot. I will put my knowledge into
:45:50. > :45:54.public service, and work as a firefighter or rescue people from
:45:54. > :46:01.mountains, because, again, that means I'm in there, and this is
:46:01. > :46:05.where I belong to. Thank you. Tomorrow morning's front pages now.
:46:05. > :46:10.The Times, the head of news has been accused, according to the