:00:16. > :00:19.Tonight we're in what they call Free Syria. President Assad's
:00:19. > :00:25.forces have been driven out, Sharia courts are in operation, and some
:00:25. > :00:30.how the regime's mayor is still in office. A citizen militia patrols
:00:30. > :00:36.the streets, a everyone lives in fear of bombs from the sky. The
:00:36. > :00:40.west promises non-lethal help for the rebels, but will that stop the
:00:40. > :00:47.Islamic spring turning into a Islamic winter. Mortgage it goes on
:00:47. > :00:53.the more extreme people will become. It is up to the rest of the world
:00:53. > :00:58.to help us get rid of Al-Assad. guests join us, including former US
:00:58. > :01:03.Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz. Jimmy Savile was never brought to
:01:03. > :01:07.court. Should the authorities pass on suspicions, even if they don't
:01:07. > :01:13.think they are strong enough to secure a conviction. We speak to
:01:13. > :01:18.the Spanish author, what mass made his childhood cancer a star of his
:01:18. > :01:24.fiction. Are there positives to be gained from suffering a terrible
:01:24. > :01:34.illness. I lost a lunge, a leg and some of my liver, this was also a
:01:34. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :01:41.happy time for me. We will talk about how to live with cancer. It
:01:41. > :01:45.looks as if there will be a break in fight anything Syria this week.
:01:45. > :01:53.The mediator was talking about a ceasefire tentatively for the
:01:53. > :01:57.Muslim festival of eed. It doesn't intricate Eid, it doesn't Light
:01:57. > :02:01.Bashar Al-Assad -- indicate that Bashar Al-Assad will fall.
:02:01. > :02:05.People tend to concentrate on the blood, the anger and the weeping,
:02:05. > :02:09.what is it like to live there? Our reporter has just spent the best
:02:09. > :02:15.part of a week in a town in the north of the country. Where did you
:02:15. > :02:19.go? There is a whole swathe of countryside in northern Syria,
:02:19. > :02:24.along the Turkish border that is rebel controlled, as far as Aleppo,
:02:24. > :02:32.there has been intense fighting for the last couple of mooints. There
:02:32. > :02:37.is one border post -- months. There was one border post near Kilis,
:02:37. > :02:40.where you can get your passport stamped with "Free Syria". We went
:02:40. > :02:45.there and tried to find out how the rebels are running their territory
:02:45. > :02:55.and find out what kind of Syria they want in the future. We went to
:02:55. > :02:55.
:02:55. > :02:59.the down of Mare' ao, Marea, it is the home town, one of the first
:02:59. > :03:08.cities to demonstrate, and the home to one of the commanders in Aleppo.
:03:08. > :03:14.This is what we found. Welcome to Marea, a small town at
:03:14. > :03:24.war. There is bravado, and real heroism here.
:03:24. > :03:30.Death, so frequent they dig the graves in advance. A numbing fear
:03:30. > :03:33.of the enemy in the sky. And a very good pastry shop, the
:03:33. > :03:40.story of Marea's liberation from tyranny, is drenched not only in
:03:40. > :03:44.blood, but also in syrup and honey. These sweets were the death of
:03:44. > :03:48.regime soldiers who stole them on April 10th, their last day in the
:03:48. > :03:53.city. TRANSLATION: When the army became,
:03:53. > :03:57.my brother and friends decided to put poison into the sweets. And the
:03:57. > :04:05.soldiers who ate them died. The people of the city are proud of
:04:05. > :04:12.what we did, we even became famous because of it. That day the city
:04:12. > :04:16.burned, hundreds of houses and shops, set alight by phosphorus
:04:16. > :04:19.grenades, hurled by Government troops. They ransacked the homes,
:04:19. > :04:24.looted whatever they could, and rode away on their tanks, never yet
:04:24. > :04:31.to return. It was left as a dusty island of
:04:31. > :04:37.freedom. To plan its own future. 19 months on, the Syrian uprising
:04:37. > :04:40.remains strangely faceless. With no clear overall leadership, and many
:04:40. > :04:44.feel, no clear aim beyond the overthrow of President Assad. I
:04:44. > :04:51.have come to this liberated town to try to discover who is fighting and
:04:51. > :04:56.what they are fighting for. Guarding the city, and ruling it,
:04:56. > :05:02.are the rebels of the Free Syrian Army. They are led n this town, by
:05:02. > :05:08.a former electrician, wounded in the battle for Syria's second city,
:05:08. > :05:13.Aleppo. TRANSLATION: I was shot by a machine gun, the bullet went in
:05:13. > :05:16.my back and out by my stomach. men are poorly armed with what they
:05:16. > :05:20.can capture from the regular army. Machine guns like this unlikely to
:05:20. > :05:24.bring down a plane. Their power comes from the charisma of
:05:24. > :05:29.commanders like this. He built this battalion from a
:05:29. > :05:34.group of friends. Like him, they are mainly poor men, a farmer, two
:05:34. > :05:39.tailors, a blacksmith, two teachers. And they are fighting, not just for
:05:39. > :05:44.freedom, but for social justice. Not just against Al-Assad, but
:05:44. > :05:51.against a whole urban class in Aleppo, who have backed him.
:05:51. > :05:54.All lack Akbar! TRANSLATION: Most of the rich people, their business
:05:54. > :05:59.is running well, they have connections and grown prosperous
:05:59. > :06:02.with the regime. What will happen to those people in the future?
:06:02. > :06:06.TRANSLATION: They won't stay in Syria afterwards, they will run
:06:06. > :06:11.away, of their own accord. And these men don't want to be
:06:11. > :06:18.robbed of the fruits of victory when the war is over.
:06:18. > :06:22.TRANSLATION: The leadership will be made up of people inside Syria, we
:06:22. > :06:26.won't accept some exiled opposition figure, who sits in five-star
:06:26. > :06:30.hotels, while people are fighting on the ground. We lost brothers,
:06:30. > :06:34.uncle, do you think we will let people living outside come back to
:06:34. > :06:40.rule us, no. We have a saying, "the land is for
:06:40. > :06:48.those who work on it". But for now it is the regime that
:06:48. > :06:53.still rules the skies. At any sign of a plane, all eyes turn upwards.
:06:53. > :06:58.This is the random destruction the jets bring. Increasingly unable, or
:06:58. > :07:03.unwilling to commit ground forces to the fight, the regime's
:07:03. > :07:08.resorting to indiscriminate aerial bombardment. The aim is simply to
:07:08. > :07:13.sow terror. This was one of the secondary
:07:13. > :07:18.schools, closed, like most schools here, for more than a year. By it
:07:18. > :07:24.was still intact until a bomb hit it. TRANSLATION: The fighter jets
:07:24. > :07:32.attacked, then they went away. Then they came back and attacked again.
:07:32. > :07:36.They had the school on both sides. At the cemetery, I meet a man
:07:36. > :07:44.coming to tend the grave of his son. TRANSLATION: My son was with five
:07:44. > :07:48.or six friend, loading potato on to a truck. A MiG 23 dropped two
:07:48. > :07:53.barrels of TNT on to them, five were killed. The oldest of them was
:07:53. > :07:57.just 16 years old, three others had their legs and arms blown off. Were
:07:57. > :08:01.they terrorists? No. The only terrorists are Bashar Al-Assad and
:08:01. > :08:08.his friends. I won't even call them unbelievers. They are worse than
:08:08. > :08:14.animals. Behind us another funeral is
:08:14. > :08:21.beginning. Today they are burying a man hit by machinegun fire from a
:08:21. > :08:26.plane, as he drove his car through the town. Suddenly the mourningers'
:08:26. > :08:32.attention turns from earth to sky, far off a helicopter is approaching.
:08:32. > :08:37.Until it eventually changes course, they too are threatened with death,
:08:37. > :08:41.they are spared this time, perhaps not the next. This man grew up in
:08:41. > :08:46.the town, moved abroad, and returned last year to join the
:08:46. > :08:50.revolution. He thinks the town is being punished for the activism.
:08:50. > :08:57.is an act of revenge, it was one of the first cities to demonstrate and
:08:57. > :09:05.kept protesting all the time. It is an economic work too. To punish
:09:05. > :09:13.people for demonstrating. That's me, in 1983. I used to be
:09:13. > :09:17.the captain. Three decades ago when he led the town's football team,
:09:17. > :09:22.the regime seemed impregnable. Now civil war has torn through friends
:09:22. > :09:26.who were once provincial chap I don't knows. -- champions. He's the
:09:26. > :09:34.mayor right now. He's a strong supporter of the Ba'ath Party, this
:09:34. > :09:36.guy too, he's a major from the army, in the army. This guy works for the
:09:36. > :09:44.intelligence, political intelligence office. He's on the
:09:44. > :09:49.other side. And he's still on the other side. In the Town Hall,
:09:49. > :09:59.extraordinarily, his old team-mate is still in office. Much to his
:09:59. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:42.The mayor is allowed to stay, for now, because of his connections. He
:10:42. > :10:46.can phone Government authorities in Aleppo, and get salaries or fuel
:10:46. > :10:53.delivered across the frontline. But does he still really believe in
:10:53. > :10:56.President Assad? TRANSLATION: Bashar Al-Assad is a democrat, he
:10:56. > :11:03.loves his people, though he may have changed now. But after he took
:11:03. > :11:09.power, he made a lot of reforms. Workers, salaries went up from
:11:09. > :11:17.4,000 Syrian pounds to 25,000. are not afraid to say that, when
:11:17. > :11:21.President Assad's planes are bombing this town? TRANSLATION:
:11:21. > :11:24.Personally I feel scared for my people, my wife and my children.
:11:24. > :11:28.But we are stuck between two sides. The planes that fire
:11:28. > :11:36.indiscriminately killing women and children, and on the other side,
:11:36. > :11:42.the FSA, which has nabbed my son, both sides are oppressing us.
:11:43. > :11:47.In the city, poor, rural, entirely Sunni Muslim, few others are so
:11:47. > :11:51.ambivalent, though many are down the road in Mitcher, more mixed
:11:51. > :11:56.Aleppo. Small towns like this -- richer, more mixed Aleppo. Small
:11:56. > :11:59.towns like this, old fashioned pious town, where women are rarely
:11:59. > :12:03.glimpseed, have had to take the fight to the big city. That may
:12:03. > :12:06.only make the city fear the uprising all the more. This remains
:12:06. > :12:11.a deeply conservative Islamic society. Even after more than 40
:12:11. > :12:15.years of rule by the secular Ba'ath Party. But not all Syria is like
:12:15. > :12:18.this. And many are afraid that if and when the regime collapses,
:12:18. > :12:26.another fight will break out, as one part of the country tries to
:12:26. > :12:31.impose its values on others. The proceedings in this dark room
:12:31. > :12:36.offer perhaps a glimpse of Syria's future. Rarely filmed before, this
:12:36. > :12:43.is rebel justice at work. A revolutionary committee of civil
:12:44. > :12:47.lawyers and Islamic law experts. They are trying three suspected tea
:12:47. > :12:51.smuggler, brought in by a rebel soldier.
:12:51. > :12:59.Eventually the suspects are provisionally let off, after
:12:59. > :13:09.swearing on the Koran. Minor disputes have long been dealt with
:13:09. > :13:12.like this. But will Islamic practice now become more important?
:13:12. > :13:17.TRANSLATION: Sharia Law should come first, because Sharia is a form of
:13:17. > :13:21.justice, that has proved itself for 1400 years. But we should graft
:13:21. > :13:30.other laws on to it, to make it suit all communities, including
:13:30. > :13:34.minorities. In this town, it certainly feels as if the FSA
:13:34. > :13:39.belongs to the people. There is no sign here of the foreign Islamist
:13:39. > :13:43.fighters the west is increasingly concerned about. These rebels say
:13:43. > :13:49.they have no Islamist agenda themselves. Syria will stay as
:13:49. > :13:54.multiconfessional as it has always been. TRANSLATION: God willing,
:13:54. > :13:59.after the regime fall, we will all work together in love and
:13:59. > :14:04.brotherhood, Christians, Kurds and even Alawite, at least the good
:14:04. > :14:11.ones. We hope they will listen to what we are saying and join us.
:14:11. > :14:15.western powers won't help, because they don't believe that.
:14:15. > :14:23.TRANSLATION: We get very little outside support, no humanitarian
:14:23. > :14:28.aid or weapons, like the media claims, only God is with us.
:14:28. > :14:31.TRANSLATION: Everyone is against the Syrian people, only Turkey and
:14:31. > :14:35.Saudi Arabia and the gulf states are on our side. Firstly, we want
:14:35. > :14:39.God to help us, then those countries. Won't those countries,
:14:39. > :14:44.those Arab countries, demand a political price for their support,
:14:44. > :14:48.won't they try to change Syria? TRANSLATION: No, no, they are
:14:48. > :14:52.trying to help us, because we have been oppressed for 40 years,
:14:52. > :15:02.because we are poor, that's all. They don't expect anything in
:15:02. > :15:06.
:15:06. > :15:12.return. But the rebels belong now to the Taheed Brigade, a wider
:15:12. > :15:19.group that led the revolution. Many think it has Islamist sympathies.
:15:19. > :15:21.As long as the FSA has no overall command structure, it is the best
:15:21. > :15:25.armed groups that will become the most influential. Since his return
:15:25. > :15:29.last year, he has seen the revolution grow from a baby into a
:15:29. > :15:34.fighter. Now he fears that if the west stays out of the fight, it
:15:34. > :15:37.will turn into something uglier still. The longer the conflict goes
:15:37. > :15:41.on, the more extreme people will become, it is up to the west and
:15:41. > :15:46.the rest of the world to help us get rid of Bashar Al-Assad, so it
:15:46. > :15:50.will be OK, or it will take a long time, and more people will get
:15:50. > :15:56.killed, and people will become more extremist. For the west staying at
:15:56. > :16:00.the side, not helping, that is creating extremists.
:16:00. > :16:06.The matter tomorrowdom of the dead, more than 50 since the upRoyceing
:16:06. > :16:13.began. It is sell -- the martyrdom of the day more than 50 since the
:16:13. > :16:17.uprising began. It dwells relentlessly on the barbarity of
:16:17. > :16:24.the fight. How long can post-war reconciliation survive images like
:16:24. > :16:33.this. Even if in war, the town goes about the old-age occupations,
:16:33. > :16:40.farming and trading. But it is still digging graves, for victims
:16:40. > :16:45.yet unknown. Here to discuss this now, two
:16:45. > :16:55.British-based Syrian activists, Rim Turkmani, from Building the Syrian
:16:55. > :17:03.
:17:03. > :17:08.State. And Al-Assad -- Abdul-kader al-Saleh, who has many contexs, and
:17:08. > :17:13.Paul Wolfowitz from the US. Do you see the free Syrian army becoming
:17:13. > :17:17.increase league radicalised? Yes, this is something we are afraid of,
:17:17. > :17:27.the longer the struggle goes on, as the gentleman said in the report,
:17:27. > :17:31.the easier it will be more people to be radicalised, and they might
:17:31. > :17:37.have their allegiance bought. Presumably it is in the west's
:17:37. > :17:43.interests to have the conflict shortened? If this had ended a year
:17:43. > :17:46.ago Syria's prospects would be much, much better. It is quite bleak, all
:17:46. > :17:50.the bad things that were supposed to be resolved because of our
:17:50. > :17:54.providing weapons to the opposition are happening precisely because we
:17:54. > :17:59.are not providing weapons to them. The conflict is dragging out,
:17:59. > :18:03.people resent and hate the we. Countries that don't share our
:18:03. > :18:06.democratic values are in the lead on deciding who gets weapons, that
:18:06. > :18:12.is not a good thing either. What do you feel would be the consequences
:18:12. > :18:18.of western military aid? First of all, it is not a solution. Any aid
:18:18. > :18:21.that is military aid, armed aid, is not a solution. It is only
:18:21. > :18:24.increasing the bloodshed and radicalising people. It is bringing
:18:24. > :18:29.tougher and tougher confrontation from the regime as more people are
:18:29. > :18:35.dying. You don't think it would speed a resolution one way or the
:18:35. > :18:39.other? It won't work, it is arming for some time now, the US is doing
:18:39. > :18:43.it in a different way, Turkey is doing it, I have seen the weapons
:18:43. > :18:49.going, it is not working, is it? think it is in the best interests
:18:49. > :18:55.of regional powers to keep everyone at the same level of strength, at
:18:55. > :19:02.least militarily, so the rebels aren't getting enough weapons to
:19:02. > :19:08.deal the regime a final blow, and the regime can't, the term they use,
:19:08. > :19:11.to clean the country of rebels. The people paying the price for the
:19:11. > :19:15.stagnation are the civilians, people bombarded on a daily basis.
:19:15. > :19:19.Is the character of the rebels changing? It is changing, but also
:19:19. > :19:24.the fact that we are only talking about the rebels, you know, that is
:19:24. > :19:28.the issue here for me. Because most of the Syrians now are against the
:19:28. > :19:32.regime. Even Aleppo, one the people in the programme said the people in
:19:32. > :19:36.Aleppo actually supported the regime. There was a beautiful civil
:19:36. > :19:39.society movement inside Aleppo, including the work union, or trade
:19:39. > :19:45.unions, they were moving against the regime, but not through arms,
:19:45. > :19:49.not necessarily through demonstrations. Forcing the city
:19:49. > :19:55.into armed conflict is a crime, to me. And it is making things worse,
:19:55. > :19:58.it is bringing radicalisation, and what one of the speakers talked
:19:58. > :20:02.about is the issue of the countryside against the city.
:20:02. > :20:07.Wolfowitz, do you have a clear understanding of the character of
:20:07. > :20:10.the Free Syrian Army? I think none of us do, but you know that's
:20:10. > :20:13.actually another argument for providing them with more material
:20:13. > :20:16.assistance, we would have a much clearer idea. But it is really
:20:16. > :20:21.important to emphasise this uprising, first of all, it wasn't
:20:21. > :20:26.started by the west, it was an uprising by the Syrian people, and
:20:26. > :20:32.it began for quite some time in a non-violent way. It was really
:20:32. > :20:36.moving to see these unarmed Syrian civilians facing the weapons of Al-
:20:37. > :20:40.Assad's regime. But the goal here isn't here to level the battlefield.
:20:40. > :20:43.With all due respect to your earlier speaker, and I understand
:20:43. > :20:47.his sentiment, at least it shouldn't be so uneven. But the
:20:47. > :20:51.goal really should be to persuade the people who are fighting for Al-
:20:51. > :20:55.Assad that they are fighting for a losing cause, and to encowering
:20:55. > :20:59.andage his army to abandon him -- encourage his army to abandon him
:20:59. > :21:02.as soon as possible. I think we are probably past this point, but some
:21:02. > :21:07.time ago, maybe he could have negotiated a peaceful departure.
:21:07. > :21:13.But the longer this goes on, every passing week, the prospects for
:21:13. > :21:17.Syria's future get lower and lower and lower. What is a post-Al-Assad
:21:17. > :21:20.Syria going to be like? You can't generalise, in the south we don't
:21:20. > :21:26.have the same problems that they suffer in the north. Because we
:21:26. > :21:30.have a tribal system that can operate in the absence of the state.
:21:30. > :21:32.In Aleppo the battle was actually brought to them into the city by
:21:32. > :21:37.the suburbs or the countryside. They don't have the same knowledge
:21:37. > :21:42.of each other, and they do not relate to each other, the way we do
:21:42. > :21:46.down south in the tribal-based societies, such as in my city,
:21:46. > :21:50.Deraa. What do you think a post-Al-Assad
:21:50. > :21:55.Syria will be like. There are many people who say it won't be a
:21:55. > :22:00.unified country any longer, it will be all kinds of things kicking off?
:22:00. > :22:04.It all depends on the route we take to overthrow the regime. We want to
:22:04. > :22:07.overthrow the regime, but if we do it through military intervention or
:22:07. > :22:11.armed conflict, we are not looking at a democratic or unified Syria.
:22:11. > :22:17.If it turns into civil war, yes, we are likely to have a deed vieded
:22:17. > :22:21.Syria. If this becomes more -- divided Siria. If this becomes more
:22:21. > :22:25.radicalised, we might have Islamic radical rule, but not Syria. It all
:22:25. > :22:30.depends on the route you take. The regime confronted peaceful uprising
:22:30. > :22:33.with arms, so people defending themselves, and some how outside
:22:33. > :22:36.groups exploited that and threw more arms into it, and started
:22:36. > :22:41.buying loyalty and buying people's needs for food and for arms. That
:22:41. > :22:46.made things even more complex. The west was always reluctant to take a
:22:46. > :22:50.very clear position. It became an international conflict, not a
:22:50. > :22:54.Syrian one. Paul Wolfowitz, there were very few who previbgted that
:22:54. > :22:58.the Arab -- predicted that the Arab Spring in Egypt turned out the way
:22:58. > :23:02.it is turning out now. There are multiple examples of the west, your
:23:02. > :23:06.country and others, arming insurgent groups, like the
:23:06. > :23:13.mujahideen in Afghanistan, and in the end, what you get isn't
:23:13. > :23:18.precisely what you set out to get? There are many example, most of
:23:18. > :23:23.what we are seeing now in Bosnia, where for three years we imposed an
:23:23. > :23:27.arms embargo on a more or less defenceless Bosnian, finally we had
:23:27. > :23:32.to intervene militarily, with tens of thousands of western troops to
:23:32. > :23:38.rescue them. I think the failure in Afghanistan, more than anything
:23:38. > :23:40.else, is when the society left we forgot about the place and
:23:40. > :23:48.abandoned it. That was a huge mistake. The situation in Syria is
:23:48. > :23:54.where it is, we didn't create it. If you ask the Syrians to oppose
:23:54. > :23:57.this regime. It is a formula for his staying in power, it is hard to
:23:57. > :24:01.see that is a good outcome for anybody. You could see a civil war
:24:01. > :24:06.going on for years, couldn't you? That is why I think the soon they
:24:06. > :24:09.are regime goes, the better. It is going to be a terrible mess, there
:24:09. > :24:15.is no question about it. It would have been less messy if the regime
:24:15. > :24:17.had ended a year ago. In Libya, to some extent, we are seeing the
:24:17. > :24:22.consequences of a protracted revolution that went on for over a
:24:22. > :24:26.year. And interestingly, at least there the population is very pro-
:24:26. > :24:31.western, because they know that western intervention rescued the
:24:31. > :24:36.people from that dictator. What do you make of that argument? I agree
:24:36. > :24:39.we wouldn't be here in the ray -- if the regime ended a year ago. To
:24:39. > :24:43.do that we didn't necessarily need a war, we needed the west, Russia
:24:43. > :24:46.and the US, to sit around one table and reach one political solution,
:24:46. > :24:54.and only then the regime would be forced to enter a transitional
:24:54. > :25:00.period, where it is forced out of the country, and a peaceful way.
:25:00. > :25:05.hasn't happened? It hasn't happened, because we talks about political
:25:05. > :25:09.solution, and military interintervention, Russia is arming
:25:09. > :25:12.the regime, everyone is doing different things. If there is not
:25:13. > :25:16.international consensus, there is no solution in Syria.
:25:16. > :25:18.Another public institution was drawn into the Jimmy Savile scandal
:25:18. > :25:23.today. For at the heart of this is not who
:25:23. > :25:27.said what to whom in the BBC, but whether and how this institution,
:25:27. > :25:31.and a shocking number of others, failed in their duty to protect
:25:31. > :25:35.children. The Director of Public Prosecutions said today he was
:25:35. > :25:38.reexamining where the Crown Prosecution Service decided not to
:25:38. > :25:41.prosecute Jimmy Savile when there were abuse allegations against him.
:25:41. > :25:46.The decision also raises the question of whether other
:25:46. > :25:56.institutions ought to be informed of accusations, even if there isn't
:25:56. > :26:02.
:26:02. > :26:06.enough evidence to make a conviction in court likely.
:26:06. > :26:09.He was a prolific offender with hundreds of victims. Today four of
:26:09. > :26:12.the cases were singled out. All dating from the 1970s, only
:26:12. > :26:17.investigated five years ago. These were the files that could have
:26:17. > :26:23.exposed Savile while the star was still alive. Three of those cases
:26:23. > :26:27.relate to Duncroft children's home N2007 a new witness came forward,
:26:27. > :26:31.saying she had seen Savile abuse a young girl there, decades earlier.
:26:32. > :26:35.The police looked into it and found more complaints, involving
:26:35. > :26:40.different victims. Savile was brought in for questioning. But
:26:40. > :26:46.never arrested. The investigation wrapped up, and in 2009, the police
:26:46. > :26:51.passed those files to the Crown Prosecution Service. Some of the
:26:51. > :26:54.detectives were sure Jimmy Savile was a dangerous sex offender, but,
:26:54. > :26:58.there was a major problem, the victims involved did not support
:26:58. > :27:01.more police action. So the CPS decided it could not bring charges
:27:01. > :27:05.against the star. The Prime Minister said today that
:27:05. > :27:07.prosecutors should look back at what happened to those files. And
:27:07. > :27:13.review that decision not to prosecute.
:27:13. > :27:15.Today I can confirm that the Director of Public Prosecutions has
:27:15. > :27:21.confirmed his principal legal adviser will again review the
:27:21. > :27:24.papers from the time when a case was put to the CPS for prosecution.
:27:24. > :27:27.The Director of Public Prosecutions, specifically, will consider what
:27:27. > :27:30.more can be done to alert relevant authorities, when there are
:27:30. > :27:33.concerns that a prosecution is not taken forward. Government will do
:27:33. > :27:36.everything it can do, other institutions must do what they can
:27:36. > :27:40.do to make sure we learn the lessons of this and it can never
:27:40. > :27:43.happen again. In the Savile case, there is no forensic evidence, and
:27:43. > :27:47.no crime scene. Without victim testimony, even the police accept
:27:47. > :27:51.it is difficult to proceed. But lawyers say the decision not to
:27:51. > :27:55.charge the star was highly significant, with hindsight, as the
:27:56. > :28:05.publicity could have encouraged other victims to come forward.
:28:05. > :28:08.Charging one often has the intended, or unintented -- unintended
:28:08. > :28:12.consequences of bringing forward other claimants and witnesses, that
:28:12. > :28:16.shouldn't be a factor in the CPS's mind, but it is often, from their
:28:16. > :28:21.point of view, a bonus, once their charged and their name is out there
:28:21. > :28:27.and the allegations are known. A different Savile victim, not
:28:27. > :28:31.connected to the Duncroft case, says she was raped as a young girl
:28:31. > :28:36.in 1970, she only told her husband about the attack a few weeks ago.
:28:36. > :28:39.She did tell the police at the time, but claims nothing came of it.
:28:39. > :28:42.were not very interested, really. They thought I was, they didn't
:28:42. > :28:47.call me a nutter exactly, I certainly wasn't, and I don't think
:28:47. > :28:52.I appear to be, but I didn't feel I was really believed. It has sort of
:28:52. > :28:55.haunted me, quite literally, it has depressed me, it has made me feel
:28:56. > :29:00.disgusted with myself. The lawyer representing victims says that
:29:00. > :29:04.shame has prevented people giving evidence for the last 40 years. And
:29:04. > :29:08.she says the scandal may go much deeper. We have had information
:29:08. > :29:12.that there are people who were complicit, alongside Jimmy Savile,
:29:12. > :29:20.and ones that actually took part. So I think it goes further than
:29:20. > :29:23.just Jimmy Savile. Other people that are living today? Possibly.
:29:23. > :29:30.Recent high-profile abuse case, the Soham murders and the death of Anna
:29:30. > :29:32.Climbie, have already led to greater -- Victoria Climbie, have
:29:32. > :29:36.already led to greater co-operation between police and different
:29:36. > :29:40.services, now prosecutors may go further, for the first time
:29:40. > :29:45.allegations of abuse may be passed on, even when there isn't enough
:29:45. > :29:49.evidence for a case to go to court. We have a real opportunity, and it
:29:50. > :29:53.really reminds me of the tragedy of Victoria Climbie, where there was
:29:53. > :29:57.an inability for agencies to share information, and I think there is
:29:57. > :30:02.an opportunity for us to try and prevent these tragedies from being
:30:02. > :30:10.able to happen again. It was one institution not being able to pass
:30:10. > :30:14.on information to the other, and that has to change.
:30:14. > :30:18.But, there are also risks, any change to the law will have to
:30:18. > :30:22.prevent another sex abuse scandal emerging. That new law must also
:30:23. > :30:30.ensure the innocent are protected from malicious rumours and
:30:30. > :30:37.persecution. We have the head of the legal team representing many of
:30:37. > :30:41.those who said they were victims of Savile. He's here now. What do you
:30:41. > :30:46.think should happen in the CPS isn't confident it can get a
:30:46. > :30:50.conviction? There are systemic failings which impact on what is
:30:50. > :30:53.the score issue here. The core -- the core issue here. The core issue
:30:53. > :30:58.is how to protect those who are vulnerable in our society, young
:30:58. > :31:01.children in particular, that may fall foul of individuals such as
:31:01. > :31:06.Jimmy Savile. The realities that whilst there are protections in
:31:06. > :31:09.place, the criminal justice system, as it seeks to prosecute, there is
:31:09. > :31:14.a requirement of course that the evidence be of a certain level of
:31:14. > :31:18.probity. That there will be a conviction. And in the absence of a
:31:18. > :31:23.conviction, the information is not then shared with other agencies and
:31:23. > :31:27.organisations. Do you really want to live in a society where big
:31:27. > :31:31.organisations, like the police --, or the CPS or whoever, pass on
:31:31. > :31:35.tittle tattle, is that what you want? No. That wasn't the point I
:31:35. > :31:38.was making. That could be, if it won't stand newspaper court, it is
:31:38. > :31:41.not a provable case, in the judgment of the prosecuting
:31:41. > :31:43.authorities? That wasn't the point I was making. I don't think it is
:31:43. > :31:49.the point made by the Prime Minister when he recommended this
:31:49. > :31:55.review. The point is this, how do we ensure that young and vulnerable
:31:55. > :31:58.people in our society, particularly children, do not fall foul of the
:31:58. > :32:02.evil acts of paedophile, for example. That is the key issue
:32:02. > :32:06.everyone wants to protect. In the absence of a conviction, which may
:32:06. > :32:12.well arise from the fact that the very victim, young, vulnerable
:32:12. > :32:19.children, feel unable to come forwards, feel unable to give
:32:19. > :32:22.evidence, which is yet a further trauma, allowing trauma, upon
:32:22. > :32:27.trauma upon the abuse and invasion they will have suffered. As a
:32:27. > :32:34.result of that, it may not be possible to secure a conviction.
:32:34. > :32:40.Yet, those allegations levied against a potential or alleged
:32:40. > :32:45.paedophile, may well have some credibility, and probably will have.
:32:45. > :32:51.You used the word "allege" and the word "May", that is the key things
:32:51. > :32:55.here, isn't it, they could be set- ups? The issue is this, if there is
:32:56. > :33:01.not a successful conviction, what happens to the information? Does it
:33:01. > :33:06.get filed away and never seen again. My view is this, that information
:33:06. > :33:09.should potentially be reactivated in the event there are subsequent
:33:09. > :33:12.allegations made against that individual. Which are of a similar
:33:12. > :33:15.type. For example, if there are allegations made in respect of
:33:16. > :33:20.someone being a paedophile, but there is not a successful
:33:20. > :33:24.conviction, and then subsequently there are allegation of a similar
:33:24. > :33:28.type, there should be some reactivation of that original
:33:28. > :33:31.evidence, original information. Don't the police do that any way?
:33:31. > :33:35.There is a real systemic failure problem here, because the
:33:36. > :33:41.information is not shared. This is the point of this discussion. When
:33:41. > :33:44.there is an unsuccessful conviction, the information is not shared
:33:44. > :33:51.through the agencies in an appropriate way, so we can be
:33:51. > :33:59.satisfied that those vulnerable people will not fall foul of abuse.
:33:59. > :34:02.It is something that a third of us can probably look forward to. Not
:34:02. > :34:07.that's -- Take That's the expression most use about cancer.
:34:07. > :34:13.It generally strikes late in life. But sometimes children must live
:34:13. > :34:18.with their body's uninvited guest. It is these words that bring the
:34:19. > :34:27.words "tragic" most often. The author Albert Espinosa was struck
:34:27. > :34:33.as a child, and his books about living with cancer The Yellow World,
:34:33. > :34:41.have been a huge success and are about to be turned into a
:34:41. > :34:51.television series. Thank you (speaks Spanish) Thank
:34:51. > :34:57.
:34:57. > :35:02.I had cancer from the age of 14 to 24. During those ten years I lost a
:35:02. > :35:07.leg, a lung, and part of my liver. But this was also a happy time for
:35:07. > :35:17.me. In the Yellow World I do not write about cancer, I write about
:35:17. > :35:17.
:35:17. > :35:23.what I learned from cancer. From the unpromising material of
:35:23. > :35:29.his childhood experiences on a cancer ward, Albert Espinosa has
:35:29. > :35:33.created a phenomenon. His blackly comic stories about what he and his
:35:33. > :35:36.young roomates said to each other and got up to, have hold half a
:35:36. > :35:39.million copies in his native Spain, where they have been turned into a
:35:39. > :35:44.TV series. They are about to be published in a dozen other
:35:44. > :35:49.countries, including the UK. Were you not very scared, did you not
:35:49. > :35:53.feel very frightened, particularly when they said, you know, a 3%
:35:53. > :35:58.chance of survival? TRANSLATION: think that the incredible thing is
:35:58. > :36:03.that once you live for so long, being so close to dying, then you
:36:03. > :36:06.lose that fear. When you get cured you no longer have the sensation of
:36:06. > :36:13.being frightened. It is a lesson you learn from the simple fact of
:36:13. > :36:20.being so close to dying. I have always felt that dying is not sad.
:36:20. > :36:23.It is a thing not to live life to the full. Following the sublgs of
:36:24. > :36:28.the Spanish series, -- success of the Spanish series, Steven
:36:28. > :36:31.Spielberg, no less, is developing a version of Espinosa's story for
:36:31. > :36:41.American television. Espinosa recalls the day doctors
:36:41. > :36:42.
:36:42. > :36:49.told him his leg would have to be amputated. I was 15 years old when
:36:49. > :36:52.I lost my leg. I was lucky enough to give it a farewell party. The
:36:52. > :36:58.night before it was amputated, the doctor told me to give it a party.
:36:58. > :37:03.So I did, I invited people who were some how related my leg. I invited
:37:03. > :37:08.a football goalkeeper against whom I had once scored 50 goals. Well,
:37:08. > :37:18.in reality I only scored one, but they let people with cancer say
:37:18. > :37:20.
:37:20. > :37:27.anything they like! Like any other boy growing up in Barcelona, Albert
:37:28. > :37:34.Espinosa was a mad, keen Barca fan. Our very own Gary Lineker was their
:37:34. > :37:39.star striker in those days. He stays in one position and scores
:37:39. > :37:46.the goals and that's it, that's all he does? Do you remember Gary
:37:46. > :37:51.Lineker, I do not remember, but Gary Lineker the best player in the
:37:51. > :37:58.world. Children in hospital, the only day
:37:58. > :38:03.we behave like really sick kids was the day the Barca football players
:38:03. > :38:10.came to visit us. They always gave us signed footballs, to the kids
:38:10. > :38:14.who looked the sickest. I think my greatest achievement was not
:38:14. > :38:16.beating four types of cancer, it was putting on such a sick face
:38:16. > :38:26.that Gary Lineker gave me a that Gary Lineker gave me a
:38:26. > :38:27.
:38:27. > :38:31.football! I always said that humour helps to explain everything. Now I
:38:31. > :38:36.wear an electronic leg, and I find myself with the same problem that
:38:36. > :38:42.everyone with an electronic or artificial leg faces. You have to
:38:42. > :38:48.recharge it at night, so in hotter weather it is only one electric
:38:48. > :38:53.outlet I have to decide if I recharge my laptop, mobile phone or
:38:53. > :38:58.my artificial leg. Some of our viewers, sad low, will have
:38:58. > :39:03.problems with cancer or their loved ones will, they might find it very
:39:03. > :39:07.difficult to understand how you can have this almost humourous attitude
:39:07. > :39:10.that you have? TRANSLATION: I have always said cancer is very tough. I
:39:10. > :39:15.did experience tough moments, when I lost my leg, my lung, and part of
:39:15. > :39:21.my liver, and also when I lost some friends, they were very hard times.
:39:21. > :39:24.We don't have to always talk about the hard times, just the chemo or
:39:24. > :39:28.the surgery. They represent a small part of your life when you are ill.
:39:28. > :39:32.The other part, after so many years, is full of happiness, all the
:39:32. > :39:35.things you discover, and the people who love you, your familiar a your
:39:35. > :39:38.own possibility. What I say, is what you learn from it helps you
:39:38. > :39:48.for the rest of your life. I don't think you have to be afraid of
:39:48. > :39:48.
:39:48. > :39:54.having a good time. Even though you are living with cancer.
:39:54. > :39:59.Espinosa's experiences have left him with a great appetite for life,
:39:59. > :40:03.and a philosophical attitude towards the other thing.
:40:03. > :40:07.TRANSLATION: I have always said I would like to die on a Friday,
:40:07. > :40:12.because that is the day when films are released in Spain. It is also
:40:12. > :40:18.the debutful things happen to me. If I die on a Friday I will be very
:40:18. > :40:21.lucky. Watch it. Come on. Good, that was
:40:22. > :40:31.Watch it. Come on. Good, that was quick. With us now, two writers who
:40:31. > :40:36.have lived with cancer, Jodie Butt, who blogs or the Huffington Post,
:40:36. > :40:41.and a writer who has written a book about her experience with cancer.
:40:41. > :40:46.You have given your cancer a name in your book? He describe it as the
:40:46. > :40:51.sea among kee, the best way for me to get my head around it was to
:40:51. > :40:55.give it a character. It felt like a monkey had moved into my life. When
:40:55. > :41:00.I say a sea monkey, it is the toy monkeys with the cymbals who won't
:41:00. > :41:05.shut up and are very irritating and won't shut up. That was my sea
:41:05. > :41:07.monkey who was here from day one, and is still with me now. He pops
:41:07. > :41:12.up everywhere. At the beginning he was with me all the time, on my
:41:13. > :41:17.pillow at night, talking incessantly, rambling through
:41:17. > :41:23.thoughts in my head. He would follow me to my friends' house and
:41:23. > :41:27.didn't stop talking, "you have cancer, you have cancer, everything
:41:27. > :41:32.is going to change ". You couldn't shut him up. Have you had something
:41:32. > :41:35.similar? I didn't give it a name, I tried not to think about cancer, I
:41:36. > :41:39.just tried to think about getting through, not pretending it hadn't
:41:39. > :41:45.happened, but getting through and trying to be the person I wanted to
:41:45. > :41:55.be at the end. Alive. These are completely contradictory approaches,
:41:55. > :41:55.
:41:55. > :41:58.evidently. Is one more effective than the other? It must depend on
:41:58. > :42:03.your personality and family situation. I had children, perhaps
:42:03. > :42:07.I was thinking more about them. I had chemo therapy, I had a long
:42:07. > :42:11.journey, it wasn't just getting rid of the cancer, but the treatment
:42:11. > :42:15.afterwards. Does it make some things better. The writer there,
:42:15. > :42:19.Espinosa, teemed to suggest there were benefits, a-- seemed to
:42:19. > :42:23.suggest there were benefits, apart from the fact that if you have
:42:23. > :42:29.cancer you can say what you like? You do let you get away with a lot.
:42:29. > :42:32.Do they? If you need to use the "C" card, it can come in handy now and
:42:32. > :42:39.again. What do you mean? If you have commitments to do things or
:42:39. > :42:43.see friends and you are not feeling very well, and you are tired, it is
:42:43. > :42:45.all right, they have to do what you want them to do because you have
:42:45. > :42:50.cancer and going through treatment, in the nicest possible way I mean
:42:50. > :42:56.that. Does it make you, peerence some things more intensely? Yes, I
:42:56. > :43:00.would say so. Emotions are definitely heightened, and guilt,
:43:01. > :43:06.for instance -- exExperience Some things more intensely? I would say
:43:06. > :43:09.so, emotions are definitely heightened. You feel a huge amount
:43:09. > :43:13.of guilt for so many reasons. You feel guilty it has come into your
:43:13. > :43:18.life, the effect on your friends and family, seeing them torn to
:43:18. > :43:21.pieces makes you feel guilty. I imagine it is the same, when you
:43:21. > :43:25.are telling your children it is guilt about them having to get
:43:25. > :43:29.their head around. I didn't feel guilty, I felt angry, I felt angry
:43:29. > :43:34.that cancer had come into my life. I don't think I felt guilty. I
:43:34. > :43:38.think I got over quite quickly the thought I had caused it. I realised
:43:38. > :43:42.that was a very dangerous road to go down. If it was thinking did I
:43:42. > :43:49.drink too much, was it too much stress, what was it. You have it
:43:49. > :43:53.and you have to get on with it. This matters because we are all
:43:53. > :43:56.getting older, there is a higher likelihood that cancer may play
:43:56. > :44:04.some role in our lives or the lives of a loved one, we have to find a
:44:04. > :44:08.way, and you two are speaking very bravely and openly about it.
:44:08. > :44:12."brave" that is an overused word. So brave, so brave. You are like,
:44:12. > :44:15.no I'm not, I'm terrified. don't have a choice. Do you?
:44:15. > :44:20.have to find, we are all going to have to find a way of talking about
:44:20. > :44:25.it, aren't we? I think that's what I found hardest, talking about it,
:44:25. > :44:28.because I didn't want to put me and cancer in the same sentence, I was
:44:28. > :44:32.very frightened of people's reaction. That is what is very
:44:32. > :44:37.difficult when people look at you and say, oh dear, well I do know
:44:37. > :44:42.one or two people who survived. You just obviously don't want to hear
:44:42. > :44:46.that. Maybe that's why somebody who deals with it instantly with humour,
:44:46. > :44:53.you have to present your view very, very quickly so people take their
:44:53. > :44:57.ideas from you. If you go around with a long face, oh I've got
:44:57. > :45:00.cancer. Writing about it allows you to be, I started off being quite
:45:00. > :45:05.cowardly with my writing, because it was a really quick way for me to
:45:05. > :45:11.tell all of my friends, quickly, what was hang. Without having to
:45:11. > :45:15.deal with their reactions, their motions, the fall-out -- their
:45:15. > :45:22.emotions, without having to comfort them, I could hide. What about
:45:22. > :45:27.Espinosa saying he gave a party for his leg? I had a goodbye booby
:45:27. > :45:31.party for my left breast, the night before my operation. I thought I
:45:31. > :45:34.have two options, cry myself into oblivion, the night before the
:45:34. > :45:37.operation, or I can celebrate a part of my body that will be no
:45:37. > :45:44.longer there this time tomorrow, with all of my friends and family,
:45:44. > :45:48.and laugh as much as possible, and try to be upbeat. So we did that. I
:45:48. > :45:52.had 10-15 of my closest friends around, we baked booby-shaped
:45:52. > :45:56.cookies, we told stories about our first bras and boys, and tried to
:45:56. > :46:00.stay as bossive as possible, right up until the last -- positive as
:46:00. > :46:05.possible, right up to the last moment. It isn't for everyone, but
:46:05. > :46:08.it worked for me. Did you do such a thing? I wish I had, I think it is
:46:08. > :46:11.so terrific, again you are telling your friend, listen, this is here,
:46:12. > :46:19.you don't have to be sad for me. It is a huge thing to lose a breast,
:46:19. > :46:23.massive great thing. Are you protect -- A Are you protecting
:46:23. > :46:28.yourself, or other people, or some how making it easy for them to deal
:46:28. > :46:32.with you as a person who has cancer? I think you are, if you act
:46:32. > :46:36.as brave you become braver. It does feed into you. If you are positive
:46:36. > :46:41.about things and upbeat about things, you actually do begin to
:46:41. > :46:47.believe what you are telling yourself. That's helpful? Very
:46:47. > :46:53.helpful, yeah. Thank you both very much. Tomorrow morning's newspapers
:46:53. > :47:03.now. The front page of the Times has news we are all having to find
:47:03. > :47:17.
:47:17. > :47:20.another �1800 a year because of the That's t it was on this date in
:47:20. > :47:30.1648 that the treaty of West Failure was signed, something to
:47:30. > :47:58.
:47:58. > :48:01.Hello, by the end of this week it will feel like we have slipped
:48:01. > :48:04.forward into late December or early January. Thursday more of a
:48:04. > :48:07.transition day. Still mild air hanging off across the south of the
:48:07. > :48:10.UK. That is where the cloud and patchy outbreak of rain will be.
:48:10. > :48:13.Further north and bright spells developing through the afternoon
:48:13. > :48:18.across a good part of northern England. Patchy rain, not amounting
:48:18. > :48:22.to very much. Still on the mild side across the south, 13, 14,
:48:22. > :48:28.possibly 15 or 16. Patchy rain across south-west England and South
:48:28. > :48:31.Wales through the afternoon. Still a fairly grey skies in most place.
:48:31. > :48:35.As you head further north, a better chance of seeing sunny spells
:48:35. > :48:38.through the afternoon. A fairly bright day all in all across
:48:38. > :48:42.Northern Ireland. Patchy cloud coming and going. Even with the
:48:42. > :48:47.sunshine temperatures no higher than 11 or 12. Much of Scotland,
:48:47. > :48:52.sunny spells, through the course of the day. Look at the temperature in
:48:52. > :49:02.Lerwick, two degrees, proper cold air moving in. Thursday and Friday
:49:02. > :49:05.