:00:14. > :00:18.26 days later, we're still talking about Al-Assaf, with police and
:00:18. > :00:23.charities reporting a big increase -- Saville, and charities and
:00:23. > :00:31.police reporting a big increase in reports of abuse. Are we re-
:00:31. > :00:37.examining old attitude towards the safety of our children. Charlie has
:00:37. > :00:41.reminded me I shouldn't go off with people I don't know. If 1970s ideas
:00:42. > :00:44.about childhood seem niave, are we any less deluded today. Child
:00:44. > :00:48.protection experts will try to answer. As the Conservatives edge
:00:48. > :00:51.closer to a referendum on Europe, Newsnight discovers even if the
:00:51. > :00:57.European Union budget is frozen, our contribution will still go up.
:00:57. > :01:06.We will debate whether our future now lies in splendid isolation.
:01:06. > :01:12.And, media magnate, Italian Prime Minister, bunga bunga enthusiast,
:01:12. > :01:17.could Silvio Berlusconi's career take another turn, to jail. America
:01:17. > :01:27.have a Commander-in-Chief, we have a disillusionist chief. We wasted
:01:27. > :01:30.18 years. Good evening, if anything good can come out of the mess that
:01:30. > :01:37.surrounds Jimmy Savile, might it possibly with a change in attitudes
:01:37. > :01:41.in this country, about how we regard the safety of children, and
:01:41. > :01:45.vulnerable young people. The police and charities have said many more
:01:45. > :01:49.people have come forward to talk about allegations of abuse, often
:01:49. > :01:55.going back years, and walled it a watershed moment. Charlie and I
:01:55. > :02:00.were in the park. Then this man came up and said would I like to
:02:00. > :02:04.see some puppies. In the 1970s, when this Government video was made,
:02:04. > :02:09.it wasn't just children who needed warning about sexual abuse, our
:02:09. > :02:14.whole society of ignorant. Or some would say, at least partly in
:02:14. > :02:19.denial. The main threat to children, it was believed, came from
:02:19. > :02:25.predatory stranger.. Rare monsters like Myra Hindley and Ian Brady.
:02:25. > :02:28.we are talking about sexual abuse in the 1970s and 1980s, the cases
:02:28. > :02:32.that went to court, the children that were abused that we became
:02:32. > :02:37.aware of, in terms of sexual abuse, were of very small number. I
:02:37. > :02:41.remember as a social worker and managing teams of social workers,
:02:41. > :02:46.over a period of two or three years, three instances where children were
:02:46. > :02:51.talking about sexual abuse and we were talking about that. A social
:02:51. > :02:56.worker with a piece of paper that said my children were taken off me
:02:56. > :03:00.for 28 days. In 1987 the Cleveland scandal led to discussion about the
:03:00. > :03:04.problem. Highly controversially more than 120 children on Teeside
:03:04. > :03:08.were taken away from their families as suspected abuse victim.
:03:08. > :03:11.Meanwhile, in America, police were learning lessons from pioneering
:03:11. > :03:15.academic research into abuse. They began specialist training that was
:03:15. > :03:23.later copied in Britain. I went to Scotland Yard in 1989, and took
:03:23. > :03:27.over what was then the Obscene Publications Branch. At that time
:03:27. > :03:32.there were two officers dealing with paedophile cases out of 16. I
:03:32. > :03:38.very soon made the decision that I wanted to change it into the
:03:38. > :03:40.paedophile squad. Because there was no point in trying to persue
:03:40. > :03:44.prosecutions against people publishing pornography, it was much
:03:44. > :03:50.more important to protect children. We were seeing a lot of child
:03:50. > :03:54.pornography pass through. And so, bit by bit, I changed it to such
:03:54. > :03:58.that all of the officers were dealing with child abuse inquiries.
:03:58. > :04:05.Today, it is estimated that around one in five children in Europe are
:04:05. > :04:11.victims of some form of sexual violence. It is thought that in 70-
:04:11. > :04:15.85% of the case, the abuser is known to the victim. The police
:04:15. > :04:20.recorded 17, 727 sexual crimes against children under 16 last year.
:04:20. > :04:25.There is still a lot we don't know. I have no doubt at all, no doubt at
:04:25. > :04:27.all, that 2,300 children with child protection plans, is a significant
:04:27. > :04:30.undercounting and underidentification of the number
:04:30. > :04:33.of children and young people experiencing sexual exploitation,
:04:33. > :04:38.and sexual abuse. It is almost bound to be so. It is a very
:04:38. > :04:42.difficult issue for children to talk about, and to declare. It is
:04:42. > :04:47.hidden by the people, the perpetrator, so there is no reason
:04:47. > :04:50.to believe that we are identifying, at this point in time, most young
:04:50. > :04:53.people and children are experiencing sexual abuse.
:04:53. > :04:58.Legislation to protect children was strengthened by the murder of
:04:58. > :05:02.Victoria Climbie by her guardians in the year 200. The aim, following
:05:02. > :05:07.an inquiry, was partly to get better co-ordination between
:05:07. > :05:11.agencies. In some cases the opposite may have happened. Yorking
:05:11. > :05:17.together is vitally important in cases of child abuse. But
:05:17. > :05:21.unfortunately since the Leming report on the Climbie affair,
:05:21. > :05:25.police and social services have drifted apart, because the report
:05:25. > :05:28.recommended that the police should get on with arresting people, and
:05:28. > :05:33.social services should get on with looking after families. And where
:05:33. > :05:38.as before we actually worked in the same offices, that's not so today.
:05:38. > :05:41.This is vital work that you should work together, because, social
:05:41. > :05:44.services will have probably a mass of information about families that
:05:44. > :05:47.they have been trying to help. And the police will have a mass of
:05:47. > :05:54.information about something else, you have to put them together.
:05:54. > :05:58.went and told mummy, and she said we had been very good. Even harder
:05:58. > :06:02.than safeguarding young children in families, is coming to grips with
:06:02. > :06:06.the sense of sexual exploitation of older children, sometimes by adult,
:06:06. > :06:10.sometimes by other children. A survey last year suggested one in
:06:10. > :06:14.six children aged between 11-17 have experienced sexual abuse. But
:06:14. > :06:21.it is estimated that more than a third of abused secondary school
:06:21. > :06:25.aged children don't report their abuse. Our reporting systems don't
:06:25. > :06:30.necessarily immediately accept what the child is saying. So you could
:06:30. > :06:34.have a 13 or a 14 or a 15-year-old involved in sexual relationships
:06:34. > :06:37.with adults, and is saying that they are choosing these
:06:37. > :06:41.relationships, and it is possible that professionals would accept
:06:41. > :06:45.that, and wouldn't challenge it. If you have a young person who is
:06:45. > :06:47.saying they want to have these sexual relationships, if they don't
:06:47. > :06:52.understand it as abusive, it is very difficult for the professional
:06:52. > :06:56.to start to work with the child to engage with the nature of the abuse
:06:56. > :07:01.that's happening. Hello, would you like to play
:07:01. > :07:04.football with me? Don't you realise you shouldn't talk to people you
:07:04. > :07:10.don't know. Don't talk to strangers! That was still the
:07:10. > :07:13.message even 20 years ago, we know now that preventing abuse isn't
:07:13. > :07:23.nearly as simple as that. Could be more be done and what
:07:23. > :07:30.could be done. With me is my guests, the former head of the see ops, the
:07:30. > :07:33.on CEOPS, the on-line protection service. Is this a watershed with
:07:33. > :07:37.the reports of abuse? I think it is a real positive we are talking
:07:37. > :07:40.about it, and we are starting to understand more, this real
:07:40. > :07:45.imbalance of power between children and people in powerful positions.
:07:45. > :07:48.Is part of it, do you think, thatm so of the taboos have been broken
:07:48. > :07:52.and we are talking about it more openly, and people in various
:07:52. > :07:55.organisations have realised they have a responsibility and will be
:07:55. > :07:59.held to account eventually? I think that is clear. One of the positives
:08:00. > :08:02.and the potential for this to be a watershed is the way victim, I hope,
:08:03. > :08:06.are perreceiving the manner in which this is being dealt with by
:08:06. > :08:13.the police and other agencies. They are being encouraged to come
:08:13. > :08:17.forward, the messages are right that victims are received
:08:17. > :08:22.sensitively. We have become too focused on the BBC. The BBC, and
:08:22. > :08:26.some people might not like me saying this, they are cupable by
:08:26. > :08:29.regard of being complicit in act or omission, but actually, Jimmy
:08:29. > :08:36.Savile probably groomed the BBC in the same way as sexual predators
:08:36. > :08:40.groom all the people around them, as well as their victim, to protect
:08:40. > :08:43.their offending pattern, so they can carry on doing what they do.
:08:43. > :08:46.You can see it in churches and other individuals who have a
:08:46. > :08:49.supervisory role, are groomed to believe that the person who is
:08:49. > :08:53.committing these offences couldn't possibly do it. This is a good
:08:53. > :08:57.moment in time to reflect on some of that messaging. Reflecting on
:08:57. > :09:01.that, and also, we heard there, this question came up in the
:09:01. > :09:06.Climbie affair and so on, about how joined up various authorities are,
:09:06. > :09:10.do police speak to each other, NHS, social workers and so on. What is
:09:10. > :09:13.your sense of that picture, it any better than it was 20 years ago?
:09:13. > :09:17.is certainly better. But what we can't get away from, and every time
:09:17. > :09:19.a child dies, a we have a review of what happens, one of the issues
:09:19. > :09:22.that comes up again and again communication. The way we
:09:23. > :09:26.communicate with each other. When you do the reviews after a child
:09:26. > :09:29.dies, after I do, all the information comes together when it
:09:29. > :09:32.is too late. When you look at the piece of the puzzle you think why
:09:32. > :09:35.was that child left there with all the information, the answer is,
:09:35. > :09:39.nobody has the complete picture until it is too late and the child
:09:39. > :09:42.has died. Is that partly because it is sensitive information, you don't
:09:42. > :09:45.want everybody to know about it, what is the problem then? Part of
:09:45. > :09:49.the problem is the way that different professionals work. It
:09:49. > :09:52.can be surely the logistics of speaking to people. You have a
:09:52. > :09:55.health visitor who is part-time, a social worker who is part-time, a
:09:55. > :09:58.police officer who has been to the house who is uniform police, trying
:09:58. > :10:04.to get those three people to speak to each other can be difficult.
:10:04. > :10:08.Speaking to a teacher it can be as fundamental as that, it is also
:10:08. > :10:10.people within the wider community and organisations within the wider
:10:10. > :10:15.community, don't realise their responsibility. If you have a
:10:15. > :10:21.concern about a child, you need to talk about it. You need to contact
:10:21. > :10:26.your local authorities. It is always better to get it wrong and
:10:26. > :10:33.err on the side of caution than leave it too late. I don't know if
:10:33. > :10:38.you feel that the lessons of the last month. Even crimes people
:10:38. > :10:46.thought they got away with 20 years ago they might be arrested. If the
:10:46. > :10:49.perpetrators are watching the TV programmes they might be nervous.
:10:49. > :10:52.They are panicking every time there is a knock on the door and a car
:10:52. > :10:56.drives down the street. If they were offending 30 years ago against
:10:56. > :11:01.children, I'm willing to bet they have been offending in the 30 years
:11:01. > :11:05.that followed, that is the critical issue here. We start with historic
:11:06. > :11:10.child abuse, very often and in lots of case, the nature of offending
:11:10. > :11:12.bi-sexual predators is they will be offending today, that is why it is
:11:12. > :11:15.so important that victims listening continuing to come forward and
:11:15. > :11:18.engage with the police and charity, and provide the critical
:11:18. > :11:22.information that means they can turn this on its head. They can
:11:22. > :11:26.play a part in saving people from suffering what they have suffered.
:11:26. > :11:30.But do you agree, to a certain extent, with what Joanna was saying,
:11:30. > :11:36.which is the bureaucratic habit of not actually communicating with
:11:36. > :11:43.other bureaucracies, is still quite a problem, it may have got a bit
:11:43. > :11:48.better? Following the murder of Holly and Jessica in Soham, the
:11:48. > :11:52.review looked at the police not having systems to share information
:11:52. > :11:55.probably, the Climbie review highlighted we were making
:11:55. > :11:58.improvements but not as good as it should be. One of the problems is
:11:58. > :12:02.at a Governmental level, if you look at the previous Government,
:12:02. > :12:06.they had created an independent adviser on child protection to
:12:06. > :12:14.Government, someone who could stand apart and provide that critical
:12:14. > :12:19.independent advice thafps Sir Roger Singlton, that is gone, that is a
:12:19. > :12:24.pity, that was the high-level strategic approach improve
:12:24. > :12:29.throughout child protection organisations. We need improvement.
:12:29. > :12:32.Is there more of it now, or are we more sensitive to it, there is more
:12:32. > :12:36.coverage in the media or more reporting, or are there more cases
:12:36. > :12:39.of child abuse? There are more cases, is it because we are more
:12:39. > :12:43.aware of it or there is more of it, we don't know the answer to that.
:12:43. > :12:47.We must stress that a victim coming forward, that victim is never, ever
:12:47. > :12:50.responsible for the abuse done to them. Perpetrators will always make
:12:50. > :12:53.victims feel responsible. Particularly with sexual abuse,
:12:53. > :12:57.where children are groomed and sexually abused, they are made to
:12:57. > :13:00.feel responsible for what has happened, they don't realise until
:13:00. > :13:04.they are much older what is happening to them, they are never
:13:04. > :13:09.responsible for what has happened. This is really important that
:13:09. > :13:13.victims have the courage to come forward if they can. In recent
:13:13. > :13:17.years Conservative leaders have always had problems over Europe.
:13:17. > :13:20.Today saw the first ever debate in the House of Commons on leaving the
:13:20. > :13:23.European Union. Instigated by Tory backbenchers. The party appears to
:13:23. > :13:27.be edging closer to the possibility of a referendum. One thing David
:13:27. > :13:34.Cameron has been very clear on, is he will not accept an increase in
:13:34. > :13:44.the EU budget, threatening to wield the British veto. Even so, could
:13:44. > :13:49.
:13:49. > :13:52.the British contribution go up. Germany cleent tell, Belgium
:13:52. > :13:56.waiters and the British upstart that is not me. Imagine walking
:13:56. > :14:05.into this room and pick ago fight with these continental types, there
:14:05. > :14:10.would have to be a really good reason. The last time the Prime
:14:10. > :14:15.Minister picked a fight with the Europeans, the famous veto of last
:14:15. > :14:20.December, it made him very popular with Les Anglais. When the Prime
:14:20. > :14:24.Minister heads to the continent in November, he clearly wants another
:14:24. > :14:28.brawl in a brasserie moment. The Government's current position is we
:14:28. > :14:32.don't accept any real terms increase in the European budget.
:14:32. > :14:36.Newsnight has seen figure that is we might be presiding over exactly
:14:36. > :14:40.that, even if the Prime Minister vetos current arrangements and gets
:14:40. > :14:44.what he wants. We have information that shows over the next seven
:14:44. > :14:54.years that Britain's contributions to the budget will go up by as much
:14:54. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :17:21.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 147 seconds
:17:21. > :17:31.as two billion euros. A molt that contributions to the EU, including
:17:31. > :17:35.the UK, and benefit the states that need it.
:17:35. > :17:42.The centre left think-tank, the IPPR, will soon call on David
:17:42. > :17:48.Cameron not to veto the budget, but instead Britain should give up its
:17:48. > :17:53.dearly cherished rebate, for accepting a reduction by up to 25%.
:17:53. > :17:58.This would target the commonkg cultural policy most, and it would
:17:58. > :18:04.mean our hosts today, France, would be the biggest loser. Meanwhile
:18:04. > :18:10.away from the kind management of the bassry in Petit France, to the
:18:10. > :18:14.moment where the euro-sceptics had their moment. For half an hour MPs
:18:14. > :18:19.debated whether Britain could withdrew from the EU We are drawing
:18:19. > :18:22.to the point where Britain leaving the EU is no longer thought
:18:22. > :18:25.unthinkable. It is a legitimate point that is starting to go
:18:25. > :18:29.mainstream. Membership of the European is in the national
:18:29. > :18:34.advantage of the British people, in terms of what it gives us, through
:18:34. > :18:39.trade, through market access, through attracting foreign direct
:18:39. > :18:49.investment, and through increased diplomatic leverage over foreign
:18:49. > :18:52.
:18:53. > :18:58.and security policies. The hoaxy cokey over Europe
:18:58. > :19:03.intensifies this year, if those vote against the Prime Minister
:19:03. > :19:10.over the budget offering. We have the head of business for
:19:10. > :19:14.New Europe, and the Conservative rp, Mark Reckless, was one of the
:19:14. > :19:19.sponsors of the bill heard today on the EU. Even if there is a freeze
:19:19. > :19:21.in the budget, our contribution still go up, how will that go on
:19:21. > :19:23.with colleagues? It is extraordinary, last surgery I did,
:19:23. > :19:27.I had had a number of police officers coming in. They were
:19:27. > :19:31.saying why when their pay was frozen, why were benefits being
:19:31. > :19:35.increased by inflation? I found that difficult enough to explain,
:19:35. > :19:41.without trying to explain to them that, while their pay is frozen,
:19:41. > :19:46.the EU should have an inflationary increase or more. That's guaranteed
:19:46. > :19:50.and its budget can only...It unacceptable to you? To be a member
:19:50. > :19:54.of an organisation where the budget can only ever go up, or as William
:19:54. > :19:56.Hague says in terms of powers, it is always powers being taken from
:19:56. > :20:00.the nation states to the European Union, and never being returned,
:20:00. > :20:05.that is democratically unsustainable. Unsustainable, and
:20:05. > :20:08.not very popular, you would think? There is obvious lie a problem with
:20:08. > :20:12.the EU budget. The interesting thing is so many people in this
:20:12. > :20:16.country, when asked how much they think we contribute to the European
:20:16. > :20:21.Union, they will say something along the lines of 20-25% of our
:20:21. > :20:27.GDP or national income. Reality is it is about 1%. It is not as much
:20:27. > :20:31.as people think. The idea of it going up, our contribution going up,
:20:31. > :20:34.even if it was frozen in the budget? The commission isn't going
:20:34. > :20:39.to get 5%. The big challenge for David Cameron and British foreign
:20:39. > :20:42.policy is, if we veto it, it will go up in 2014 by 2% any way. That
:20:42. > :20:48.is a reason to negotiate. That is what we should be doing. Picking up
:20:48. > :20:52.the point in the film, when you were elected a couple of years ago,
:20:52. > :20:55.of the idea of leaving Europe bonkers? I think it was more on the
:20:55. > :21:00.fringes of politics, where it now seems to have come to the
:21:00. > :21:07.mainstream. If you look at the polling of this, there has been a
:21:07. > :21:12.fairly consistent trend of ignoring "don't knows", a fair margin of
:21:12. > :21:15.leaving the EU and becoming an independent country once more. That
:21:15. > :21:19.feeling is breaking through into parliament. How will that go down
:21:19. > :21:23.in the business community? I think the business community is obviously,
:21:23. > :21:26.by and large, in favour of our membership of the European Union,
:21:26. > :21:30.because it is so good for us economically. That is what we are
:21:30. > :21:33.really talking about here. Leaving the theology to one side for a
:21:33. > :21:37.moment. This is about people's jobs and growth. The debate has changed
:21:37. > :21:42.over the last couple of years. But the reality is, people have an
:21:42. > :21:46.opportunity to vote for a party that would take us out of the
:21:46. > :21:51.European Union, and when it matters, people don't vote for UKIP. They
:21:51. > :21:55.got 3.1% in the last general election. I think that when it
:21:55. > :21:58.matters, they won't vote for what UKIP represents, if there were to
:21:58. > :22:01.be a referendum. I'm trying to think, you were talking about
:22:01. > :22:03.police officers and other constituent, but if you had to go
:22:03. > :22:08.to businesses in this country, or the Prime Minister had to go to
:22:08. > :22:11.businesses in this country, and say we are the Conservatives, the party
:22:11. > :22:15.of business, we would like to get out of Europe and it will cost you,
:22:15. > :22:20.that will be a hard sell, won't it? What Douglas's debate did today was
:22:20. > :22:24.it opened up the issue of what would we do if we come out of the
:22:24. > :22:28.EU, all the law passed over the last 40 years, what will we keep
:22:28. > :22:31.and look at, and say what can we do better for our country. You have to
:22:31. > :22:34.get there, not only do problems with the Prime Minister and others
:22:34. > :22:37.in parliament, but even the business community, which is
:22:37. > :22:40.broadly supportive of your party, one assumes, you will have
:22:40. > :22:45.difficulty there? The same point can be made with the money. Last
:22:45. > :22:47.year our contribution to the EU was �19.5 billion. That is about the
:22:48. > :22:52.same that is spent on the whole of police anything this country. If
:22:52. > :22:56.you say to business, the worse, I think we will get a Swiss-style
:22:56. > :23:02.free trade relationship and we should trade freely with the whole
:23:02. > :23:09.world, not just a declining part of it. Even if you had to pay the
:23:09. > :23:13.common tarrif for exports from here to the EU, that would cost between
:23:13. > :23:18.�6-��8 billion, you would have enough to half the corporation tax
:23:18. > :23:22.bringing it to Irish rate. That would be tantermount to economic
:23:22. > :23:29.self-harm. If we were to leave the EU. If you take one very practical
:23:29. > :23:34.example, it is useful to look at it in terms of people's jobs. About
:23:34. > :23:39.700,000 people in this country are employed in the automotive sector,
:23:39. > :23:45.50% of cars we make in this country go to other E United States F we
:23:45. > :23:50.were to leave the -- EU. If we were to leave the EU we would pay 11%
:23:50. > :23:54.tarrif on cars. The idea that the Government would pick up the tab is
:23:54. > :23:58.fanciful. Fanciful? It is not going to happen? To compare the size of
:23:58. > :24:02.the numbers, the cost Philip is talking about is tiny, compared to
:24:02. > :24:05.even just the amount we pay in the budget. I don't think that is right.
:24:05. > :24:10.If you talk to Japanese car companies, they will say we are not
:24:10. > :24:15.going to stay if you leave. We have to leave it there.Y about that.
:24:15. > :24:21.For years Silvio Berlusconi has kept all of Europe entertained and
:24:21. > :24:28.amused, the man who saw himself as "the Knight", made Chancellor
:24:28. > :24:33.Angela Merkel laugh and grimace, in his bunga bung party were an
:24:33. > :24:38.experiment in social mobility, bringing together actors and
:24:38. > :24:44.politicians and, it seems, prostitutes. He's been sent to jail
:24:44. > :24:51.for the crime that finally nailed Al Capone, is this a conspiracy s's
:24:51. > :24:55.claims, of left-wing journalists, and journalists. I spoke to the
:24:55. > :25:00.Italian writer of an Italian paper, I asked how, after all these years
:25:00. > :25:05.of finally trying to prosecute him, they finally got him on tax evasion.
:25:05. > :25:09.Can I rephrase your question, how is it Berlusconi got away with it
:25:09. > :25:14.for so long. How is it? We don't know. Sometimes maybe he was not
:25:14. > :25:20.responsible. We have to accept that. But it is a fact that legislation
:25:20. > :25:26.has been passed by the Government, when he was in Government, by his
:25:26. > :25:33.own majority in parliament, helped the statute of limitations to kick
:25:33. > :25:36.in sooner. Many of his prosecutions were cancelled because of statute
:25:36. > :25:41.of legislation. Now he's out of Government and it happened, four
:25:41. > :25:45.years, but he won't go in jail. won't go in jail. This is it, isn't
:25:45. > :25:50.it t he has excellent lawyers, limitless funds, he's an elderly
:25:50. > :25:55.man, he will never serve time in jail? To be honest I don't think
:25:55. > :26:02.the lawyers and the money matters here. Not even politics. I think it
:26:02. > :26:06.is a fact that now he can appeal, and the Italian justice system is
:26:06. > :26:14.unfortunately slow, so it can take another two or three years, then
:26:14. > :26:18.again he can appeal to the Supreme Court. Again he's going to be over
:26:18. > :26:22.80, he has his parliamentary immunity, he will try to get back
:26:22. > :26:26.into parliament as a senator, I imagine. If you put all these
:26:26. > :26:32.things together, you won't see Berlusconi in jail. You say he will
:26:32. > :26:36.probably run again for the Senate, look at it from here, his political
:26:36. > :26:42.career must be over, isn't it? should be over. On Wednesday he
:26:42. > :26:47.said he won't run again for Prime Minister, which was a little
:26:47. > :26:50.unexpected. Because now he's polling numbers that are very low.
:26:50. > :26:56.He's giving up something he doesn't have, therefore, popularity, and a
:26:56. > :27:01.chance to win. But, don't forget that the Italian electoral law
:27:01. > :27:09.allows any party to put anybody into, we call them block lists. So
:27:09. > :27:13.if his own party decides to have him within the party list, there is
:27:13. > :27:17.nothing the voters can do. would you sum up the Berlusconi
:27:17. > :27:21.years, then, looking back at it. What has he achieved for Italy,
:27:21. > :27:27.apart from obviously cheering us all up with some of his antics?
:27:27. > :27:35.Maybe he cheered you all up, he didn't cheer us up. But how do I
:27:35. > :27:41.sum up 18 years? It is like a show of magic lasting 18 years. It is a
:27:41. > :27:46.long time. We are now back into more prosaic Prime Minister dealing
:27:46. > :27:51.with the economy. But basically, it was, you know, I'm in America,
:27:51. > :27:59.Americans have a commander in I have ch, in Italy we have an
:27:59. > :28:01.illusionist -- in a Commander-in- Chief, in Italy we have an
:28:01. > :28:06.illusionist-in-chief. Where does this leave the centre right
:28:06. > :28:10.politics, is there a big gap in the post-Berlusconi period? Berlusconi
:28:10. > :28:13.said he would like to see primaries in the centre right, they do have
:28:13. > :28:17.primaries now within the centre left. That is a good development,
:28:17. > :28:23.in a way. I'm worried that this conviction will bring the clock
:28:23. > :28:25.back to where he was, like people shouting about persecution, by
:28:25. > :28:29.magistrates and political motivation and all that. I think
:28:29. > :28:33.the centre right in a way has already discounted Berlusconi, and
:28:33. > :28:36.they are going forward. I think it is good news. There is a lot of
:28:36. > :28:42.deJay have you in what we are hearing and seeing in the last few
:28:42. > :28:47.hours in Italy. Some how Italians are tired. I mentioned this magic
:28:47. > :28:54.programme with the magician, a programme that lasted 18 years. 18
:28:54. > :29:02.years a long time. You might like magic shows, but 18 years too long.
:29:02. > :29:12.Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.
:29:12. > :29:18.
:29:18. > :29:22.Newsnight review is up next. Is Daniel Craig the best Bond since
:29:22. > :29:27.Sea Connery. We will debate is it the end of men. We will discuss
:29:27. > :29:30.women behind and in front of the camera in a Saudi film that breaks
:29:31. > :29:35.boundaries. That's it for us tonight. The tireless one is back