:00:13. > :00:18.The bastards are back. David Cameron proves unable to command
:00:18. > :00:22.even his own party over the issue of Europe. And the specter which
:00:22. > :00:25.haunted the major Government, tonight left him without a majority
:00:25. > :00:29.in the House of Commons. This defeat, Cameron's first major
:00:29. > :00:32.one as Prime Minister, came from out of the blue, it is a reminder
:00:32. > :00:37.that the fragile truce over Europe, called by David Cameron, is
:00:37. > :00:42.probably coming to an end. One of the Tory rebels is here, as
:00:42. > :00:47.is Labour's shadow Europe Minister, and the hapless minister who found
:00:47. > :00:50.himself left to do the washing up, while his rebel backbenchers are
:00:50. > :00:54.celebrating victory. Also tonight, Michael Heseltine
:00:54. > :00:58.swings in to talk about how to get growth back into the British
:00:58. > :01:04.economy. Barack Obama sees and is seen seeing the work of Hurricane
:01:05. > :01:08.Sandy, has the storm blown him back into the White House? How big
:01:08. > :01:15.western drug companies are using Indians as Guinea pigs on whom to
:01:15. > :01:25.test new medicines. I have made several requests, can
:01:25. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:35.we talk to you at another time. It's not the reputation he would
:01:35. > :01:39.have wanted, but tonight David Cameron was humiliated in the House
:01:39. > :01:43.of Commons for being too soft on the European Union. His idea of
:01:43. > :01:47.standing up for British interests didn't even convince many of his
:01:47. > :01:50.own backbenchers. They asked why should British tax-payers be
:01:50. > :01:53.expected to hand over more of their earnings for the benefit of the
:01:53. > :01:58.rest of the continent, when they are having to make economies at
:01:58. > :02:08.home. The Labour Party knows a bandwagon when it sees one, and
:02:08. > :02:10.
:02:10. > :02:15.leapt aboard. Result? Defeat for the Government by 13 votes. In the
:02:15. > :02:21.last 48 hours, in a gall lagsy somewhere not too far away, a
:02:21. > :02:27.Motley Crue of politicians from all sides have co-heard with almost the
:02:27. > :02:30.speed of light -- co-hereed into something almost the speed of life.
:02:31. > :02:33.MPs emerged to take on Europe, but also to take on the leadership of
:02:33. > :02:36.the Conservative Party. The Government has just been defeat, it
:02:36. > :02:41.was never going to be a binding vote, but it is a pretty good
:02:41. > :02:46.guiding vote. A reminder that David Cameron can't control his MPs over
:02:46. > :02:51.Europe. This is even despite some foot work by the Prime Minister.
:02:51. > :02:54.They are trying to control something I call "veto Viagra",
:02:55. > :02:58.when they block measures in Europe is popular with their party and the
:02:58. > :03:06.public. This time round his MPs didn't buy it. You could say, the
:03:06. > :03:09.drugs didn't work. Here are Stormtroopers,
:03:09. > :03:14.interspersed with some of the rebel alliance, intent on inflict Ade
:03:14. > :03:20.feet on their Prime Minister. Earlier in the year when the rebel
:03:20. > :03:23.leader made clear his Jedis would be joining the ranks, it brought
:03:23. > :03:26.some out. Ed Miliband had fun at Prime Minister's Questions.
:03:26. > :03:30.can't convince anyone on Europe. Last year he flounced out of the
:03:30. > :03:33.December negotiations with a veto, and the agreement went ahead any
:03:33. > :03:37.way. He has thrown in the towel before these negotiations have
:03:37. > :03:42.begun. He can't convince European leader, he can't even convince his
:03:42. > :03:50.own backbenchers. He is weak abroad, he is weak at home, it's John Major
:03:50. > :03:55.all over again. His position is completely incredible. He says he
:03:55. > :04:00.wants a cut in the EU budget, but he doesn't sanction a veto. Now we
:04:00. > :04:08.have made clear we will use the veto, as I have used it before. Let
:04:08. > :04:14.me ask him, will you use the veto. See what I mean about "veto Viagra".
:04:15. > :04:19.Things were not breezy on the Labour side of the galaxy. Some
:04:19. > :04:24.were queasy at his new found euro- sceptic hawkry. They went with him
:04:24. > :04:28.on the quest, enticed by the option of inflicting a Commons defeat. In
:04:28. > :04:32.the moment of cross dressing, they had become the ones in favour of a
:04:32. > :04:36.greater cut to the EU budget than the Tories. Oh how it rankled.
:04:36. > :04:40.have had a few weeks to immerse myself into the bugetry demands,
:04:40. > :04:44.made not only by the institutions of the EU, but also the member-
:04:44. > :04:49.state. I have to say my normally cheerful mood has soured. It is
:04:49. > :04:54.extraordinary to see the cheer lack of shame displayed by those
:04:54. > :04:58.demanding more of our money. Tory front bench were trying
:04:58. > :05:03.puncture an appeal of a vote tabled by Mark Reckless, he wants the cut
:05:03. > :05:06.to the EU budget, not the freeze his leadership bleefsz to be the
:05:06. > :05:10.most feasible outcome. Jacob Rees- Mogg tabled a rival amendment on
:05:10. > :05:13.the Government's behalf. Their defence is this, if the Government
:05:13. > :05:17.calls for a cut, there would be little European support for that,
:05:17. > :05:21.then the whole talks would falter, and the budget would roll over at a
:05:21. > :05:25.higher rate than proposed now. So new money from us to them would
:05:25. > :05:28.flow. The rebel alliance was worried about something raised on
:05:28. > :05:32.Newsnight last week, that the budget freeze would be nothing of
:05:32. > :05:35.the sort, it would see more money flowing to new European countries.
:05:35. > :05:40.Is it not the case, irrespective of whether the Government is
:05:40. > :05:43.successful on negotiating a freeze or not, that money, in cash terms,
:05:43. > :05:52.more money will be given to the European Union. If I'm incorrect,
:05:52. > :05:57.then I please have the Financial Secretary correct me? The shape of
:05:57. > :06:00.the budget needs to be negotiated, but it is true to say that the
:06:00. > :06:03.result of the give Ye of the rebates that the previous
:06:03. > :06:08.Government -- givaway of the rebates the previous Government
:06:08. > :06:13.gave out, we lose out on the spending for new member states that
:06:13. > :06:18.would have been previously abated. The votes were in, 307 in the rebel
:06:18. > :06:21.alliance, including 53 Tory MPs who had held their nose and voted with
:06:21. > :06:25.Labour against their party. A big loser was David Cameron's new Chief
:06:25. > :06:31.Whip, Sir George Young. He was brought in to rally the storm
:06:31. > :06:37.troops, but displayed little grip. With this shot across David
:06:37. > :06:40.Cameron's spaceship boughs, it is not sure that David Cameron will
:06:40. > :06:42.get approval for whatever budget is agreed in upy, given the
:06:42. > :06:47.displeasure displayed today. The problems for the Prime Minister are
:06:47. > :06:51.many. Every time he's defeated on Europe he's diminished, in general.
:06:51. > :06:55.Secondly, he's now under pressure from cuept whyics to set out what
:06:55. > :06:59.he wants -- euro-sceptics to set out what he wants in terms of a
:06:59. > :07:03.referendum. Something he has been vague about until now. Something
:07:03. > :07:05.more longer term too, manage you had a Government governing with a
:07:05. > :07:10.majority of something like 20, today we have seen how quickly
:07:10. > :07:14.something like that could be wiped out. This week we Where Are You Now
:07:15. > :07:18.there are many more Star Wars films on the horizon. There are equally
:07:18. > :07:26.many more Europe wars coming down the track too. We know that the
:07:26. > :07:30.value of a veto has fallen faster than a meteor.
:07:30. > :07:39.We're joined by Greg Clarke, which you saw in the film, first of all
:07:39. > :07:45.we will talk to my other guests. Bernard Jenkin, given the vote
:07:45. > :07:50.wasn't binding, what have you achieved, aart from humiliating --
:07:50. > :07:54.apart from humiliating the Prime Minister? I don't think humiliation
:07:54. > :07:59.is right, embarrassing, but humiliation is too strong a word.
:07:59. > :08:06.What have you gained from humiliating the Prime Minister
:08:06. > :08:09.then? OK, that is 1-0 so far! The British people for a long time have
:08:09. > :08:13.been way ahead than most politicians on the question of the
:08:13. > :08:15.European. Much more disillusioned, much more fed-up, and much more
:08:15. > :08:19.determined to get a new relationship with the European
:08:19. > :08:22.partners. To put the relationship with the European Union on a
:08:22. > :08:25.different footing. I think the House of Commons has finally caught
:08:25. > :08:28.up with public opinion. We have heard, the British public, their
:08:29. > :08:32.voice has been heard in the House of Commons tonight, in a way that
:08:32. > :08:36.hasn't been heard for a very long time. As far as the Labour Party is
:08:36. > :08:42.concerned, we can take it, can we, that you will agree nothing other
:08:42. > :08:46.than a cut in the EU budget now. Yeah, we are in favour of a real-
:08:46. > :08:51.terms cut. We think at a time when Governments across the EU, and the
:08:51. > :08:54.world, are tightening their belts, that the European Union's budget
:08:54. > :08:58.shouldn't be exempt for those reductions. That is despite the
:08:58. > :09:03.fact that last time, when it was in your hands, you gave away about
:09:03. > :09:06.what, �7 billion? In 2005 the economic climate was different.
:09:06. > :09:11.Still money you were chucking away? We also had a significantly
:09:11. > :09:15.enlarged European Union. We had ten member states Conservatives and the
:09:15. > :09:19.Labour Party argued at that time for enlargement. You hadn't
:09:19. > :09:26.intended to give away the �7 billion, it was a total blunder by
:09:26. > :09:29.the Prime Minister. �10 billion was it. Over five years. What actually
:09:29. > :09:35.happened as a result was that the French and the British contribution
:09:35. > :09:38.are now almost parity because we did achieve reform of the Common
:09:38. > :09:42.Agricultural Policy. We are now in a position where you
:09:42. > :09:47.will only agree a cut in the EU cutting. Given the clear will of
:09:47. > :09:51.parliament has been expressed, what will you do? I think it was a very
:09:51. > :09:55.passionate debate, what was clear was there was a strong consensus
:09:55. > :09:59.that we should be seeking a cut in the EU budget. That is always been
:09:59. > :10:01.our position. Will you listen to that? Of course. Will you act on
:10:01. > :10:05.it? When you have a debate like that, where everyone was clear, and
:10:05. > :10:09.the Prime Minister of clear in Prime Minister's Questions earlier,
:10:09. > :10:13.that, of course, when, not just in this country, where we're cutting
:10:13. > :10:17.budgets, but it is happening across Europe. As I said, in my clip there,
:10:17. > :10:21.I think it is essential that the European institutions exercise the
:10:21. > :10:26.same fiscal discipline that they are urging on everyone else.
:10:26. > :10:32.didn't you find him plausible? think that, as I say, I think the
:10:32. > :10:36.British political establishment is just behind the curve here. British
:10:36. > :10:40.people are much angryier. I'm delighted the Labour Party, they
:10:40. > :10:44.have been forced to listen. When you go into opposition, you do get
:10:44. > :10:49.more in touch with public opinion. They knew their old position of
:10:49. > :10:52.increasing spending in the European Union, come what may, was
:10:52. > :10:56.completely indefensible. What do you want Cameron to do now? I think
:10:56. > :10:59.what David Cameron has to do, this is a much bigger issue. What
:10:59. > :11:04.happened tonight was really incidental to the negotiations.
:11:04. > :11:09.Though, it might result in paralysis at this summit. But there
:11:09. > :11:14.will be a multinational financial framework of one sort of another.
:11:14. > :11:17.This is a much bigger watershed moment in British politic. This is
:11:17. > :11:21.about, the British people beginning to demand, and beginning to get
:11:21. > :11:26.through to the politicians at Westminster, that they want this,
:11:26. > :11:29.whatever Government is in power, to start organising a different
:11:29. > :11:33.relationship with the European Union. To leave the European Union?
:11:33. > :11:37.Not necessarily to leave it. If we let this drag on, this paralysis,
:11:37. > :11:40.where the Government can neither deliver a proper engagment on our
:11:40. > :11:45.present terms of membership, nor is it negotiating a new relationship,
:11:45. > :11:48.as things change in Europe. guys all know this stuff. Is it not
:11:48. > :11:52.the case, if there is no agreement between the member Governments, on
:11:52. > :11:57.whatever the budget increase is going to be, it will happen any way,
:11:57. > :12:01.at the rate of inflation, what is it 2%, their budget will go up
:12:01. > :12:04.whatever happens? You are quite right about that. That just shows
:12:04. > :12:08.how much power we have given away. How powerless the House of Commons
:12:08. > :12:12.now is under all these treaties. Why we need a new relationship. So
:12:12. > :12:15.we can't have our resources simply striped away from us in this way. I
:12:15. > :12:18.don't think there is very many of your viewers out there, that think
:12:18. > :12:21.this is a satisfactory position. Are you pleased that you have
:12:22. > :12:26.alienated your party a little bit from Europe tonight? I don't think
:12:26. > :12:29.we have. We have made a very common sense argument about reductions in
:12:29. > :12:32.spending, that are happening here in the UK, and across the EU.
:12:32. > :12:36.would use the veto, would you? haven't talked about that.
:12:36. > :12:40.asking you now, would you use the veto if you were in power? I think
:12:40. > :12:44.it is too early to start talking about exercising a veto. That is
:12:44. > :12:47.pathetic? We haven't started the negotiations yet. You forced the
:12:47. > :12:51.Prime Minister into a climb-down tonight, his policy is clearly
:12:51. > :12:56.articulated, he has said where he stands on the veto, and you won't
:12:56. > :13:01.tell us? He used the veto in December, and it didn't get him
:13:01. > :13:05.anywhere. The efficacy isn't here nor there, would you use the veto?
:13:05. > :13:08.We would prefer that the Prime Minister built bridges rather than
:13:08. > :13:14.burning them. Would you use the veto in Government? We are not at
:13:14. > :13:18.the end of the negotiation process. It would depend what comes out of
:13:18. > :13:22.the negotiation. OK, you are not going to answer the question,
:13:22. > :13:26.clearly. Greg Clarke, if you do use the veto, as I think you have said
:13:26. > :13:30.you will, if necessary? You have to be prepared to use the veto.
:13:30. > :13:36.will make no difference, will it? Of course it will. If you use the
:13:36. > :13:40.veto the budget can't be approved. As for inflation -- and ask for an
:13:40. > :13:44.inflation of 2% more of our money? Some of the budgets get rolled
:13:44. > :13:47.forward on an inflationary basis. The truth is, it becomes very
:13:47. > :13:51.uncertain, it is much better to sort this thing out once and for
:13:51. > :13:56.good. My view and the Government's view is we should have a cut in the
:13:56. > :14:02.budget, just as we are having in other place. You have got the
:14:02. > :14:05.possibility through using the veto. I think this is a very difficult
:14:05. > :14:10.question. The Government could have just accepted this amendment and
:14:10. > :14:14.turned their fire on Labour. that's what you want, Europe won,
:14:14. > :14:17.he wants a cut, you want a cut? Prime Minister agreed with other
:14:17. > :14:22.European leaders, with the German, French, Dutch and other leader
:14:22. > :14:27.around Europe, that we should aim for a cut in the EU budget. And at
:14:27. > :14:33.the very most, a real terms freeze. Let me tell you, when he goes into
:14:33. > :14:37.negotiate, this is a very difficult negotiation. 17 of the 27 countries
:14:37. > :14:41.are net recipients. They all have a veto too. He needs to be able to
:14:41. > :14:47.get the best deal for Britain. He has to do that. He wants a real
:14:47. > :14:53.terms cut, but I think it's shepful to build alliances and to --
:14:53. > :14:56.helpful, but -- helpful to build alliances whatever he does. When
:14:56. > :15:00.the Prime Minister was trying to persuade you not to acts you have
:15:00. > :15:07.tonight, what did he say to you? be honest, I never had a
:15:07. > :15:12.conversation with him about it. But, what I would say, is that this vote
:15:12. > :15:15.will have a dramatic effect across the whole of the European Union. It
:15:15. > :15:18.will, in some respects, make the negotiations more difficult. But
:15:18. > :15:21.you watch, there are going to be other countries saying, why aren't
:15:21. > :15:25.we demanding a cut. Voters in other countries saying, why aren't we
:15:25. > :15:29.demanding a cut. And I think, as this argument, that perhaps starts
:15:29. > :15:32.in Britain and is taken to other countries, I think we will see it
:15:32. > :15:35.having an electrifying effect on the politics of other countries,
:15:36. > :15:40.who are wondering why their Governments aren't being as tough
:15:40. > :15:43.as our's. We don't quite know how you would behave if you were in
:15:43. > :15:47.Government. You notionally support the idea of a cut, don't you?
:15:47. > :15:51.have said tonight, we voted quite clearly. We don't know whether you
:15:51. > :15:55.would put your money where your mouth is, it is not worth very much
:15:55. > :15:58.is it? We would negotiate in a way that doesn't alienate people, in a
:15:58. > :16:04.way this Prime Minister did, in December, when he didn't even need
:16:04. > :16:09.to. The Fiscal Compact treaty he walked out of, that went ahead any
:16:09. > :16:12.way, didn't apply to the UK. the first time in history, the
:16:12. > :16:16.European budget has always increased, it is the first time in
:16:16. > :16:21.the history of Europe that major countries, like France and Germany,
:16:21. > :16:25.have signed up to. Do you want to see an increase after this one way
:16:25. > :16:28.or another? Absolutely. One thing about the internal discipline of
:16:28. > :16:31.your party. Do you think Andrew Mitchell could have made you vote
:16:31. > :16:34.differently? I will say one very frank thing about the relationship
:16:34. > :16:37.between the whip's office and the rest of the Government. The
:16:37. > :16:43.Government needs to listen to the whip's office. Because one senses
:16:43. > :16:47.that the whip's office does tell the truth to power and sometimes
:16:47. > :16:50.there is a bit of denial going on in Downing Street. Do you think
:16:50. > :16:53.there are possibly more rebellions coming up? There is a strong sense
:16:53. > :16:57.in the Conservative Party if a few Liberal Democrats cause a bit of
:16:58. > :17:03.trouble in the coalition. They are accommodated. But if there are 50
:17:03. > :17:07.or 60 Conservatives who are equally unhappy from the other side of the
:17:07. > :17:11.equation, we are taken for granted. I think there needs to be a bit
:17:11. > :17:14.more balance in that relationship. The liberals need to understand, if
:17:14. > :17:20.the coalition is going to operate, they will have to accommodate that
:17:20. > :17:23.too. Do you think George Young, he's a very nice man. He's well
:17:23. > :17:28.respected and popular amongst colleagues. As I think Bernard
:17:28. > :17:32.would acknowledge. Europe is an issue where people rightly have
:17:32. > :17:35.strong views, strongly held views, across all parties. When you have a
:17:35. > :17:40.situation in which the European Commission is proposing a 10%
:17:40. > :17:44.increase in what it wants to take from us. No wonder people's
:17:44. > :17:49.attention is drawn. No wonder people are aroused to participate
:17:49. > :17:53.in such a debate. This is about, the debate today was about the
:17:53. > :17:58.tactical way to achieve what is a common objective to get a cut in
:17:58. > :18:04.the EU budget, and to make it start going down, rather than being
:18:04. > :18:08.ratchetted up, as it always did under Labour. The shadow Foreign
:18:08. > :18:12.Secretary increased it by 8%, it was in perpetuity, you can't say it
:18:12. > :18:16.was for this environment, it was in perpetuity. Thank you very much.
:18:16. > :18:20.The British economy can be saved, and this country can reverse
:18:20. > :18:24.decades of relative decline, the former Deputy Prime Minister,
:18:24. > :18:29.Michael Heseltine, has emerged from the Oxfordshire wilderness,
:18:29. > :18:33.promising to lead his people to the Promised Land. He was asked to come
:18:33. > :18:37.up with ideas for getting some growth back into the economy by the
:18:37. > :18:40.Prime Minister. And, to no great surprise, the Prime Minister
:18:40. > :18:45.appears to think that Lord Heseltine has produced an excellent
:18:45. > :18:48.report. This, despite the fact, that it propose the complete
:18:48. > :18:54.overhaul of Government policy. His Government's policy. Before I talk
:18:54. > :18:58.to the biggest Barnet in modern politics, Paul Mason is here.
:18:58. > :19:03.a zai, the discussion you have just had, the -- day, the discussion you
:19:03. > :19:08.have just had, the discussion hanging over Britain for decades,
:19:08. > :19:13.and the other problem, the British disease, the economy. Low
:19:13. > :19:17.productivity, stagnant regions, trade deficit, low innovation. Here
:19:17. > :19:23.are two of the graphics that Lord Heseltine threw at us today. GDP
:19:23. > :19:26.per hour worked in France, in 1990, green bar, German, USA. We have
:19:26. > :19:30.narrowed the gap. The light blue bar is now. But still, French
:19:30. > :19:33.workers, German workers and US workers produced more than British
:19:33. > :19:38.workers. This is a problem that has been with us for a long time,
:19:38. > :19:45.Heseltine points to it today. tell you the skills gap, that's
:19:45. > :19:52.really crucial, because you can't spell "relative"! I will only say
:19:52. > :19:57.somebody in Newsnight can't spell "relative". Let's hope this one
:19:57. > :20:00.comes out right, "regional", that's spelt right! These green bars show
:20:00. > :20:05.the relative contributions of the economy to different part of the UK.
:20:05. > :20:09.In the middle, the pyramid is London and the south-east, with a
:20:09. > :20:14.third of growth coming from them. These, as we say, are not new
:20:14. > :20:17.problems. They have been given an urgency by these proposals from
:20:17. > :20:21.Lord Heseltine today. We are going to see the interview with Lord
:20:21. > :20:25.Heseltine in a moment or two. Give us your take on the core strategy
:20:25. > :20:30.here? There are two words in that report that keep reappearing, that
:20:30. > :20:34.you don't often hear in economic policy discussions in Britain, they
:20:34. > :20:37.are "strategic" and "plan", quite often they are there together in
:20:37. > :20:42.the same sentence. He's talking about a strategic plan for British
:20:42. > :20:45.economic growth. He's talking about not just good ideas to make it
:20:45. > :20:50.happen, but a radical reform of institutions, which we haven't had,
:20:50. > :20:55.to make that possible. To even formulate the policy. Now, this, as
:20:55. > :20:58.you know, maybe we have got 16- year-olds watching this tonight,
:20:58. > :21:02.who might be surprised there is a debate between industry and finance
:21:02. > :21:06.about growth policy. But it is going on since we were 16. The
:21:06. > :21:12.people who advocate what Heseltine advocates have never won the
:21:12. > :21:18.argument. If they did, it would look like a very different country.
:21:18. > :21:22.Welcome to Heseltineia. A new Britain with a strategy for growth.
:21:22. > :21:29.Better productivity, a strategic plan, Government funding a pooled,
:21:29. > :21:34.civil servants are brigadeed, everything is geared to growth.
:21:34. > :21:37.Welcome to reality. An economy where productivity is low, growth
:21:37. > :21:44.support radic, and where the Government has struggled -- support
:21:44. > :21:48.radic, and where the Government has struing struggled to find strategic
:21:48. > :21:53.direction. Lord Heseltine famously walked out of the Thatcher cabinet
:21:53. > :21:58.over industrial strategy, the 89 bullet points he produced today
:21:58. > :22:01.sing to the same tune, Conservatism, industrialism. All departmental
:22:01. > :22:06.growth money would be pooled, a National Growth Council led by the
:22:06. > :22:09.PM, then the money allocated to the region, councils would draw up
:22:09. > :22:12.strategic plans. Planning objections would be overridden by
:22:12. > :22:19.strategic considerations, and there would be clear and fixed policy on
:22:19. > :22:23.the energyics m, and where the next airport -- mix energy mix and where
:22:23. > :22:27.the next airport is built. Labour thinks it would never happen.
:22:27. > :22:29.have been advocated an active industrial strategy for a long time,
:22:29. > :22:35.where you have Government doing things, helping businesses to grow
:22:35. > :22:42.the economy. That is very different to the "leave it to the market",
:22:42. > :22:46.laissez faire model propagaged by Margaret Thatcher. The sons of
:22:46. > :22:51.Thatcher, in Number Ten and number 11, this is not something they
:22:51. > :22:53.would advocate or take on. So that is Heseltineia, a country where
:22:53. > :22:57.everything, from the School Curriculum, to the election
:22:57. > :23:01.timetable, runs to the rhythm of a growth strategy. Where Britain
:23:01. > :23:05.plays hard ball, like its competitor, and where economic
:23:05. > :23:09.dynamism does not stop north of Watford.
:23:09. > :23:12.A little earlier I spoke to Michael Heseltine when he dropped by. I
:23:12. > :23:16.asked him why the Government needed him to produce a blueprint for
:23:16. > :23:20.growth, if everything was going so swimmingly. The essence of what
:23:20. > :23:24.this Government has done, which I find totally impressive, is they
:23:24. > :23:28.have had the guts to say to someone like me, look, you take an
:23:28. > :23:32.independent view, that's what the best companies do. They say to
:23:32. > :23:36.their employees, look, we know we're not perfect, tell us where we
:23:36. > :23:41.can improve. That is a sign of strength. There an element in this
:23:41. > :23:45.too, as you say in your report, you are a successful businessman, you
:23:45. > :23:49.built a business yourself. George Osborne hasn't built any business?
:23:49. > :23:54.He is actually masterminding the saving of this country's economy,
:23:54. > :23:59.which is what he's paid to do. He's doing it extremely impressively.
:23:59. > :24:03.Where is the evidence that your scheme for devolving spending to
:24:03. > :24:09.local communities, is actually more effective? Oh right, the London
:24:09. > :24:16.Docklands, if I had told you there would be Canary Wharf, Excel, the
:24:16. > :24:21.Olympic, an airport, and O2, in 1979, you would have locked me up.
:24:22. > :24:26.Go to Liverpool, wherein 1981 there were riots, people said don't --
:24:26. > :24:33.where in 1981 there were riots, people said don't bother with votes
:24:33. > :24:36.there, said we can save the cities. Go to central Manchester, look at
:24:36. > :24:40.the Hume Estate and all that happened there. Everything I
:24:40. > :24:43.propose is based on what has already been achieved. When you
:24:43. > :24:52.talk about reviving these Great Northern industrial cities,
:24:52. > :24:56.Manchester? All our cities. Liverpool, or Gateshead, London's -
:24:56. > :25:00.- none has a single Tory councillor have they? I'm not in the business
:25:00. > :25:04.of saying, Labour, Lib Dem, Conservative, I'm in the business
:25:04. > :25:08.of saying can we make these cities contribute more to their prosperity
:25:08. > :25:11.and national prosperity. You have cited examples from recent history,
:25:11. > :25:16.the argument is, that the modern Conservative Party, the sort of
:25:16. > :25:19.people who are currently running the Government, have no natural
:25:19. > :25:24.sympathy or understanding with those great cities? I wholly
:25:24. > :25:28.disagree with that view. I think that the Government has set up my
:25:28. > :25:32.inquiry, precisely because they have sympathy with those cities.
:25:32. > :25:37.the end, what you are proposing is a revival of the old idea of
:25:37. > :25:41.picking winners. You even mention it in your report? Do you want to
:25:42. > :25:46.pick losers? Is it the business of Government to be picking, well we
:25:46. > :25:50.hope they will pick winners, picking winners at all? If you go
:25:50. > :25:53.to Whitehall, they are spending money on specific grants and
:25:53. > :25:57.specific companies, and on specific project. They don't know what they
:25:57. > :26:01.are doing, is that the problem. They are picking losers by default?
:26:01. > :26:06.They are picking winners, that is what they do. If you move outside
:26:06. > :26:10.this country, to every equivalent capitalist economy, they have a
:26:10. > :26:13.machinery of Government to pick winners. I'm unrepentant to say if
:26:13. > :26:17.you are going to use tax-payers money, to support the capitalist
:26:17. > :26:21.system it, for God's sake make the right decisions and don't make bad
:26:21. > :26:27.decisions. Why are they making the wrong and bad decisions now?
:26:27. > :26:31.didn't say they were. You don't need a change of strategy? We are
:26:31. > :26:37.on to two different subjects. One is the individual decision, to put
:26:37. > :26:42.grants in the way of individual projects, and say -- I say you are
:26:42. > :26:46.picking winners. The he sense of my report is you should do it --
:26:46. > :26:51.essence of my report is you should do it better across a wider
:26:51. > :26:54.spectrum, on the other side, you should take money currently spent
:26:54. > :26:58.in on things like housing, transport, education and training,
:26:58. > :27:02.and you should say, instead of civil servants in London saying,
:27:02. > :27:05.what we think Manchester should have is some more transport or
:27:05. > :27:08.roads. What you do is you go to Manchester and say this is the
:27:08. > :27:13.money we have got, what would you do if you could design the
:27:14. > :27:19.solutions. Why have we got a system in which we are spending money
:27:19. > :27:24.remotely and unprofessionally? have not used your pejorative
:27:24. > :27:30.language. You said London, as opposed to locally, and you used
:27:30. > :27:34.the word "professional" as opposed to what we have now? You used the
:27:34. > :27:39.word "unprofessional", I'm not saying that what we do now when we
:27:39. > :27:42.back a housing or road scheme is unprofessional or incompetent. I'm
:27:42. > :27:46.saying it fits a pattern of national and London-based decision
:27:46. > :27:50.making, I want to see it out in Leeds, Manchester, Plymouth,
:27:50. > :27:53.wherever it happens to be. Working to a National Council chaired by
:27:53. > :27:56.the Prime Minister. There is no more centralised figure in the
:27:56. > :27:59.country? There is no-one else that can make anything happen in this
:27:59. > :28:02.country. You must have heard, time and again, the Prime Minister
:28:02. > :28:06.saying we pull the lever, but it is connected with elastic, nothing
:28:07. > :28:11.happens. And you don't think that is the antithesis of localism?
:28:11. > :28:16.don't think it is at all. I think that if you are actually sitting
:28:16. > :28:21.make all of the decisions in London, that is centralism. If you share
:28:21. > :28:28.the decision-making with the localties, that is localism.
:28:28. > :28:36.Michael Heseltine, Lord Heseltine, thank you.
:28:36. > :28:41.What hath God Wrought, was the first telegraph message sent in
:28:41. > :28:44.1884. They may ask the same thing about the 2012 American
:28:44. > :28:48.presidential elections, by this time next week Americans will have
:28:48. > :28:52.cast their vote. Huge numbers of people are still suffering. But
:28:53. > :28:56.Barack Obama's handling of the crisis has drawn praise from
:28:56. > :29:02.notional opponent. While his challenger, Mitt Romney, has been
:29:02. > :29:06.left looking something of an irrelevance.
:29:06. > :29:10.It's the jersey coast that took the worst battering. Here, the
:29:10. > :29:16.epicentre of the storm hit on Monday night. Pulling buildings
:29:16. > :29:20.apart, and sweeping the beach right over the community. The waves were
:29:20. > :29:24.coming, hitting on an angle from the south, and just breaking over
:29:24. > :29:31.the sea wall. Pouring into the houses up front here. And then into
:29:31. > :29:36.the streets. So I stayed up on the top. Watched the incredible power
:29:36. > :29:42.of the ocean, and the full moon came out for about 15 minutes, it
:29:42. > :29:48.was surreal. I had an incredible view of the waves crashing over. At
:29:48. > :29:52.the time I wasn't so ennam moured by it, I was more -- ennam moured
:29:52. > :29:56.by it, I was more scared. This is one of the jersey shore towns where
:29:56. > :30:01.their world was turned upside down, but where everyone is now hard at
:30:01. > :30:06.work trying to make things right. The emphasis now is on getting back
:30:06. > :30:09.to business as usual, in a political context, that means full
:30:09. > :30:14.force campaigning for the presidential election. As to who
:30:14. > :30:17.might have been fitted more from this Hurricane crisis? Those in the
:30:18. > :30:21.know feel that is pretty clear. Well, this is an incredibly
:30:21. > :30:27.important moment for President Obama, because it allows him the
:30:27. > :30:29.opportunity to look and act and be presidential. To fly to the scene
:30:29. > :30:34.in the presidential helicopter, to stand in the White House and talk
:30:34. > :30:37.about his concern for Americans. It is an opportunity to be what it is
:30:37. > :30:41.that the President wants to project himself as being, and what he hopes
:30:41. > :30:46.that Americans will choose, in the end.
:30:46. > :30:52.Helen and her husband have lived in this town for 30 years. The news
:30:52. > :30:58.that President Obama was flying out to visit the disaster zone left her
:30:58. > :31:02.distinctly underwhelmed. I don't give a shit about the President!
:31:02. > :31:08.I'm Romney, so the President can stay away from New Jersey as far as
:31:08. > :31:15.I'm concerned. It is four years of disaster, I don't know! The key
:31:15. > :31:20.thing though, is at a time when the challenger he might do a better job,
:31:20. > :31:23.taking a close interest in disaster relief, allows President Obama to
:31:23. > :31:27.perform. I think it is significant that he comes to where everything
:31:27. > :31:31.has taken place. I don't think it is a political move. You have to
:31:31. > :31:35.come in, assess what is going on, talk to the people, let them know
:31:35. > :31:39.you are behind them and supporting them. It is good. Whatever the
:31:39. > :31:43.president would be, they should be here.
:31:43. > :31:49.When he did arrive here, the world's media was in attendance. It
:31:49. > :31:53.was one more day when Mr Obama could dominate the headlines, aided
:31:53. > :31:57.by the Republican Governor of New Jersey, who has been lavishing
:31:57. > :32:01.praise on the President's handling of the crisis. It is all extremely
:32:01. > :32:06.politically useful. He has worked incredibly closely with me, since
:32:06. > :32:10.before the storm hit. I think it is our sixth conversation since the
:32:10. > :32:15.weekend. And it's been a great working relationship to make sure
:32:15. > :32:18.that we're doing the jobs that people elected us to do. I cannot
:32:18. > :32:23.thank the President enough for his personal concern and compassion for
:32:23. > :32:27.our state and for the people of our state We are here for you. And we
:32:27. > :32:34.will not forget, we will follow up to make sure that you get all the
:32:34. > :32:39.help that you need until you are rebuilt.
:32:39. > :32:43.After days in which he has had to yield the stage, Mitt Romney was on
:32:43. > :32:49.the stump again in Florida he's been doing well in this state, but
:32:49. > :32:54.with worldwide attention fixed on the Hurricane's aftermath, it is a
:32:54. > :33:00.question of who is listening? is quite a time for the country, as
:33:00. > :33:04.you know. We're going through trauma in a major part of the
:33:04. > :33:07.country. A kind of trauma you have experienced here in Florida more
:33:07. > :33:12.than once. It is interesting to see how people come together in a
:33:12. > :33:16.circumstance like this. This is a very difficult moment for Mitt
:33:16. > :33:21.Romney. For a couple of reasons, he momentum that was clearly going his
:33:21. > :33:25.way, and now his campaign, and in fact, the entire presidential race
:33:25. > :33:30.is being knocked off the top headline. It makes it hard for him
:33:30. > :33:34.to figure out what he can do. This is obviously an issue, not about
:33:34. > :33:38.politics, but everything that happens has political implications
:33:38. > :33:41.for him. It is too early to say, perhaps, that it has been here that
:33:41. > :33:50.the tide was turned. But there is no denying that the Hurricane has
:33:50. > :33:54.had the impact on lives, on property and on politic.
:33:54. > :33:59.From a medical point of view, we in the west live in the luckiest time
:33:59. > :34:03.in his treatment but those medicine, which offer to cure our sicknesses
:34:03. > :34:08.and relieve our pain, have at some point to be tested on humans, but
:34:08. > :34:12.where, who wants to be a Guinea pig. Pharmaceutical companies have been
:34:12. > :34:16.solving that problem, by piling into India. Hundreds of the Indians
:34:16. > :34:19.who took part have died during trials, and very few autopsies have
:34:19. > :34:24.been carried out to determine the cause of death. Doctors have been
:34:24. > :34:32.fined, and now the Indian Government is seriously considering
:34:32. > :34:38.tightening up the rules. Sue Lloyd Roberts reports from the poverty-
:34:38. > :34:43.striken state of Madhya Pradesh. Some locals call it neo-colonialism.
:34:43. > :34:47.Foreign drug companies using poor and illiterate Indians as Guinea
:34:47. > :34:51.pigs in drug trials. TRANSLATION: Our family has been destroyed by
:34:51. > :34:59.this. The drug companies should know it. The doctors who carry out
:34:59. > :35:06.the trials may be in denial. This is an office.
:35:06. > :35:10.But they are now being disciplined. Lawyers are asking if we can trust
:35:10. > :35:19.the results of the trials? global implication, potentially
:35:19. > :35:23.would be, whether those findings can be safely relied upon. India
:35:23. > :35:28.has obvious attractions for the foreign drug companies. The cost
:35:28. > :35:32.here can be half that in the west. There are educated, English-
:35:32. > :35:37.speaking doctors. And a vast population from which to choose
:35:37. > :35:42.trial subjects. All of whom are required, under Indian law, to give
:35:43. > :35:47.their informed consent. TRANSLATION: I put my thumb print
:35:47. > :35:52.on the document, and my daughter- in-law signed in Hindi, the form of
:35:52. > :35:55.in English, we couldn't understand anything. -- was in English, we
:35:55. > :36:00.couldn't understand everything. That was enough for a three-year-
:36:01. > :36:05.old healthy boy to be given a polio vaccine. He had a seizure, that was
:36:05. > :36:11.recorded as a "severe adverse event", by the hospital. Three
:36:11. > :36:15.years later the family say he still has breathing and eating difficulty.
:36:15. > :36:20.This boy is one of more than 80 patients, who the records show,
:36:20. > :36:23.were severely affected in the trials in the town of Indor, most
:36:23. > :36:26.of which took place here at the main MY hospital. The families of
:36:26. > :36:32.the dozens who died, might have never known their loved ones were
:36:32. > :36:38.ever on a troil, were it not for a doctor -- trial, were it not for a
:36:38. > :36:44.doctor here at the hospital who turned whizzle blower. They re--
:36:44. > :36:47.Whistleblower. They recruited the people from the dredges of society
:36:47. > :36:51.because they didn't know about the clinical trials. The doctors are
:36:51. > :36:55.making huge amounts from the pharmaceutical companies, they are
:36:55. > :37:02.interested only in money. Offer challenged colleagues he lost his
:37:02. > :37:06.job at the hospital. I set out to find some of the families of those
:37:06. > :37:09.who died. There have been local investigations into the deaths, but
:37:09. > :37:14.there have been no autopsies, so there can be no certainty that the
:37:14. > :37:18.drug trials are to blame. There is no compensation for the families.
:37:18. > :37:27.One thing that awful them are agreed on, none of the trial
:37:27. > :37:31.subjects knew they were being given experimental drugs. The death of
:37:31. > :37:36.this woman, during a trial, has, say the family, left them destitute.
:37:36. > :37:43.When she went into the hospital, with chest pains, the 45-year-old
:37:43. > :37:51.of the main breadwinner. TRANSLATION: Normally when we go to
:37:51. > :37:57.the hospital we are given a five rupee voucher. They said they would
:37:57. > :38:04.give my mother a foreign drug costing 125 rupees, we were
:38:04. > :38:08.surprised, we are from a low caste. Her mother reacted so badly that
:38:08. > :38:16.she died a month later. The trial registered in the UK was later
:38:16. > :38:20.halted, due, say the company, to the number of seizures recorded.
:38:20. > :38:29.The family blame her death on the doctor who carried out most of the
:38:29. > :38:33.trials at the hospital. Dr Aneil Barani. As I ited more families, I
:38:33. > :38:38.found people here have no longer an unquestioning faith in the medical
:38:38. > :38:45.profession. Ramadar Shrivastav also took her
:38:45. > :38:52.husband to the hospital with chest pains. She too was pleasantly
:38:52. > :38:55.surprised by how they were treated by Dr Aneil Barani. TRANSLATION:
:38:55. > :39:00.said you're poor, that is why I'm paying for your transport costs to
:39:00. > :39:04.come and collect the medication. I know you can't afford it. But when
:39:04. > :39:10.her husband died, the doctor blamed her for failing to give him the
:39:10. > :39:15.correct dose. Which she denies. TRANSLATION: I treated him as a God,
:39:15. > :39:19.and begged him to look after my husband. I now know my husband died
:39:19. > :39:26.because of the drug trial, I don't trust him any more. I'm even afraid
:39:26. > :39:32.of going back to the hospital. doctor refused my request for an
:39:32. > :39:35.interview, I went to the hospital to find him. The state Government
:39:35. > :39:39.have charged him with unlawfully accepted money and trips abroad,
:39:39. > :39:47.from foreign drug companies, and for carrying out trials without
:39:47. > :39:50.consent. When I arrived at his office,
:39:50. > :39:56.closelyle followed by security guards, he was not in the mood for
:39:56. > :40:04.talking. Can we talk to you at another time? This is an offence,
:40:04. > :40:10.you are shooting me with a camera. This is an offence.
:40:10. > :40:13.That was my attempt to talk to Dr Barani, who has been top of the
:40:13. > :40:23.list as far as allegations over the drugs trials are concerned. Little
:40:23. > :40:24.
:40:24. > :40:28.wonder he's a little media shy. So who is in charge of the doctors?
:40:28. > :40:34.Dr Bahgit is head of the Ethics Committee, whose job it is to
:40:34. > :40:39.approve and supervise drug trials at MY hospital. How did it all go
:40:39. > :40:43.wrong? We never say we are infallible, our lemtations are
:40:43. > :40:47.known to us and everyone around. Certainly because there is a lot of
:40:47. > :40:52.money being poured out. Do you think you are losing control?
:40:52. > :40:58.from what is coming up and what is expected, we may have lost control.
:40:58. > :41:02.But it is not just the hospital here, a recent parliamentary report
:41:02. > :41:07.suggests that the entire country could be losing control over drug
:41:07. > :41:14.trials. Not least because India has only half the number of qualified
:41:14. > :41:20.drug inspectors, needed to cope with demand.
:41:20. > :41:27.Still in state of Madhya Pradesh, I left Indore, to find more
:41:27. > :41:31.irregularities in the conduct of trials in the town of Bhopal. A
:41:31. > :41:41.town linked to the world's worst industrial action. When an
:41:41. > :41:41.
:41:41. > :41:47.explosion at the Union Carbide plant caused some 25,000 deaths.
:41:47. > :41:53.The only good thing to come out of the disaster was this. A state-of-
:41:53. > :41:57.the-art hospital, built as part of a compensation agreement. The
:41:57. > :42:00.Bhopal Memorial Hospital was built, to treat those still suffering from
:42:00. > :42:03.the disaster. Some half a million locals were affected. Little did
:42:04. > :42:08.they know, when they came to the hospital, some of them would be
:42:08. > :42:13.used for India's clinical drug troils.
:42:13. > :42:17.-- trials. This man told me his sight was
:42:17. > :42:22.damaged in the accident. Five years ago he suffered a heart attack and
:42:22. > :42:27.went to the memorial hospital. His discharge papers show he was part
:42:27. > :42:31.of a trial by a British company. AstraZeneca admit that routine
:42:31. > :42:38.monitoring revealed a few of the trial subjects had not given proper
:42:38. > :42:42.consent. But say that this man was not one of them. He says he was not
:42:42. > :42:47.told about the trial, and it affected him badly.
:42:47. > :42:51.TRANSLATION: No, I haven't heard of AstraZeneca. I want to say this to
:42:51. > :42:55.them, please don't do these trials on poor people. Rich people can
:42:55. > :43:05.overcome problem. If I can't work, the whole family suffers. Why did
:43:05. > :43:07.
:43:07. > :43:11.they choose us? Why indeed? Professor Mishra helped set up the
:43:11. > :43:14.memorial hospital and served on the Ethics Committee. These trials are
:43:14. > :43:18.carried out for the benefit of those individuals who are suffering
:43:18. > :43:21.from particular disease, and there is a drug which can give them
:43:21. > :43:24.relief. But haven't these people suffered enough already, they have
:43:24. > :43:30.survived one of the worst industrial accidents in history,
:43:30. > :43:34.and now they are being put at risk in a drug trial? The way you are
:43:34. > :43:39.talking you would block the development of medicines for the
:43:39. > :43:45.rest of time. Why choose these people? Can you find out that this
:43:45. > :43:48.drug is likely to produce such a side effect, without using it?
:43:48. > :43:56.choose gas disaster survivors? question I cannot answer, that was
:43:56. > :44:01.not my job to find out. This man's father was also a gas
:44:01. > :44:07.victim, who was given drugs by the hospital after a heart attack. When
:44:07. > :44:11.his father ran out of the drug, he tried to buy some more.
:44:11. > :44:15.TRANSLATION: I went to the market to buy them. I was told they were
:44:15. > :44:23.only available from the hospital. Only then did I realise he was on a
:44:23. > :44:29.drug trial. I feel very bad that my dad died because of those drugs..
:44:29. > :44:33.This claim is impossible to verify, again, there was no autopsy. On the
:44:33. > :44:38.trial development it says the British company, GlaxoSmithKline,
:44:38. > :44:44.are the sponsor, are responsible and are the investigators for trial.
:44:44. > :44:50.But GSK told us they bought the rights to the drug while the trial
:44:50. > :44:55.was carried out by a French company called Sanofi, named as
:44:55. > :44:58.collaborators on the document. They told us that it was conducted but
:44:59. > :45:02.an Indian research association. The drug trial set up can be
:45:02. > :45:07.complicated. Drug companies might team up with medical research
:45:07. > :45:11.bodies. And they will delegate the work to what in India are called,
:45:11. > :45:14.clinical, research, outsourcing companies. When there have been
:45:14. > :45:24.allegation of malpractice in the past, the drug companies have
:45:24. > :45:24.
:45:24. > :45:28.tended to put the blame on those local companies.
:45:28. > :45:34.It is well nigh impossible for the subjects of drug trials across
:45:34. > :45:41.India to seek compensation. Lawyers are now talking about vicarious
:45:41. > :45:45.liability. I met a British barrister, here to look into it. He
:45:45. > :45:49.had had just got hold of a damning parliamentary report, that claims
:45:49. > :45:53.that some doctors, carrying out drug trials, the called experts,
:45:54. > :46:00.had simply signed the opinion, written by the invisible hand of
:46:01. > :46:07.drug manufacturers. There are rule concerns about, at the very least,
:46:07. > :46:12.collision between experts and -- collusion between experts and the
:46:12. > :46:16.drug manufacturers, and at Washington Post it is suggesting a
:46:16. > :46:19.fraud is taking place, that the reports are being signed off
:46:19. > :46:24.without any independent, clinical scrutiny of their findings, and the
:46:24. > :46:28.way in which conclusions have been expressed. The drug companies
:46:28. > :46:33.organise that they carry out many trials in different countries
:46:33. > :46:37.concurrently. But, by the end of this year, thousands of people in
:46:37. > :46:44.India will have taken part in trials and their reaction, real or
:46:44. > :46:51.otherwise, would have been taken into account. Two days after my
:46:51. > :46:54.encounter with the doctor, I read that he had been transferred from N
:46:54. > :46:59.MY hospital. Nearly every day the papers expose more of the scandal,
:46:59. > :47:09.which does little to comfort those who may never know why their loved
:47:09. > :47:09.
:47:09. > :47:19.ones died, and for whom compensation is a remote prospect.
:47:19. > :47:19.
:47:19. > :48:01.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:48:01. > :48:11.That's all from Newsnight tonight, no time for more, we will leave you,
:48:11. > :48:11.
:48:11. > :48:18.well, with the play out, really, well, with the play out, really,
:48:18. > :48:22.good night! Hello, we are looking at a wet and windy night, that rain
:48:22. > :48:27.slowly clears away first thing in the morning. It may well just
:48:27. > :48:32.linger up into the Northern Isles and the wind is a feature here. It
:48:32. > :48:35.is a case of sunny spells and scattered showers. A cold feel to
:48:35. > :48:39.the day. Temperatures struggling to get up into double figures. Some
:48:39. > :48:42.sunny spells here. We might see nine or ten in the London area,
:48:42. > :48:46.fewer showers here. There will be a cluster of showers out into the
:48:46. > :48:53.south and west. Some of these showers, as we push further north
:48:53. > :48:56.and west could be heavy, with hail and thunder as well. A shattering
:48:56. > :49:00.of showers close to Anglesey, across the Isle of Man and into
:49:00. > :49:04.Northern Ireland. By the middle of the afternoon, some showers could
:49:04. > :49:09.be well organised. Heavy with hail and thunder. We can't rule out a
:49:09. > :49:19.wintry flavour to the tops of higher ground in Scotland as well.
:49:19. > :49:30.