:00:13. > :00:18.Tonight, historical allegations of child sexual abuse, linked to the
:00:18. > :00:24.North Wales child abuse scandal of the 70s and 80, lead to a victim
:00:24. > :00:29.calling for a new investigation. You were taken into care, where you
:00:29. > :00:31.were just sexually abused. Various things would happen, drink would be
:00:31. > :00:34.involved. It was basically rape. But there wouldn't be just him,
:00:34. > :00:41.there would be other people involved as well. This man alleges
:00:41. > :00:44.a leading Conservative from the time was one of his abusers.
:00:44. > :00:52.In disgrace, Labour's former Europe Minister, Denis MacShane, stands
:00:52. > :00:55.down from parliament, after MPs say he fiddled his expenses. If you
:00:55. > :01:00.thought you were outraged-out by the expenses scandal, you might
:01:00. > :01:04.find a bit left in the tang. The Government announces new
:01:04. > :01:08.guideline to contain ash dieback, after warnings going back years.
:01:08. > :01:14.are facing the prospect of it being prevalent in the wider countryside,
:01:14. > :01:17.at which point it is probably too late to control and doing nobody
:01:17. > :01:23.about. George Monbiot call it is one of the UK's greatest cry Iies,
:01:23. > :01:26.do the authorities see it that way. -- crises, do the authorities see
:01:26. > :01:29.it that way? Good evening, a Newsnight
:01:29. > :01:33.investigation into the abuse of boys from children's homes in Wales
:01:33. > :01:36.can reveal that two victims say they suffered sexual abuse at the
:01:36. > :01:41.hands of a leading Conservative politician from the Thatcher years.
:01:41. > :01:45.The claims arise from a child abuse scandal in North Wales, which led
:01:45. > :01:49.to a lengthy inquiry in the year 2000, known as the Waterhouse
:01:49. > :01:53.tribunal. One of the alleged victims has now called for a
:01:53. > :01:55.meeting with the Prime Minister, and for a new investigation. Angus
:01:55. > :01:58.Stickler from the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, who has
:01:58. > :02:04.been covering what went on at these homes for more than a decade at the
:02:04. > :02:10.BBC, has this report. North Wales children's homes in the
:02:10. > :02:13.07s and 80s. The scene of the most depraved child abuse imaginable.
:02:13. > :02:20.Vulnerable children in care raped by the very people paid to look
:02:20. > :02:26.after them. One particular night that I always recall is where I was
:02:26. > :02:29.basically raped, tied down, and abused by nine different men,
:02:29. > :02:33.sexually. This was Bryn Estyn, a children's home at the centre of
:02:33. > :02:36.the North Wales child abuse scandal. These were allegations of
:02:36. > :02:40.widespread physical and sexual abuse. Not just at the hands of the
:02:40. > :02:43.staff who worked here, but of children lent out to others.
:02:43. > :02:49.These were allegations of a paedophile-ring involving people
:02:49. > :02:53.from all walks of life, businessmen, a market trader, a senior public
:02:53. > :02:59.figure. This was a paedophile-ring that stretched beyond the Welsh
:02:59. > :03:03.borders. To Chester, the south coast, London and beyond. In the
:03:03. > :03:06.home, it was the normal standard I have a bues where it was violence
:03:06. > :03:11.and sexual. Outside it was basically like you were sold. We
:03:11. > :03:13.were taken in particular to the Crest Hotel in Wrexham. Mainly on
:03:13. > :03:18.Sunday nights, where they would rent rooms.
:03:18. > :03:24.In the early 1990s, historic allegations of child abuse started
:03:24. > :03:28.to surface. In March 1994, the County Council commissioned an
:03:28. > :03:34.independent inquiry, into allegations of widespread abuse
:03:34. > :03:39.across North Wales. Professor Jane Tunstill was one of the panel.
:03:40. > :03:45.cut to the chase, our report was not published, and indeed we were
:03:45. > :03:48.required to send back our numbered copies to the council for them to
:03:48. > :03:53.be pulped, in order for the local authority to maintain its insurance
:03:53. > :03:55.cover. It also meant they could not apologise or being seen as taking
:03:55. > :04:02.seriously the allegations of the young people.
:04:02. > :04:06.It was this that prompted the then Tory Government to announce a full
:04:06. > :04:10.judicial inquiry. The North Wales child abuse tribunal, headed by the
:04:10. > :04:14.late former High Court judge, Sir Ronald Waterhouse, heard evidence
:04:14. > :04:18.from more than 650 former residents of children's homes. Horrific
:04:18. > :04:26.stories of physical and sexual abuse. The inquiry promised to
:04:26. > :04:30.leave no stone unturned. As for allegations against the rich and
:04:30. > :04:33.powerful, counsel for the inquiry mentioned the existence of a
:04:33. > :04:38.shadowy figure of high public standing, but said there was no
:04:38. > :04:43.substantial evidence to support the allegations. I believe there will
:04:43. > :04:46.be any further prosecutions, simply because the report has now been
:04:46. > :04:49.published. The evidence within the tribunal has already been
:04:49. > :04:54.considered by the Crown Prosecution Service. If something further was
:04:54. > :04:57.to emerge, then obviously we would reconsider. Since the Jimmy Savile
:04:57. > :05:02.abuse allegations surfaced, politicians have been raising
:05:02. > :05:08.questions about other historic abuse cases. Tom Watson, MP,
:05:08. > :05:17.speaking last week, during Prime Minister's Questions. The evidence
:05:17. > :05:21.file used to convict paedophile Peter Wrighton, if it still exists,
:05:22. > :05:26.contapes evidence of a paedophile- ring. In our investigation, Peter
:05:27. > :05:30.Wrighton was linked with a North Wales children's home, and to a
:05:30. > :05:33.prominent Tory politician at the time. We had interviews with
:05:33. > :05:38.alleged victim. Newsnight and the bureau of the investigative
:05:38. > :05:43.journalism, went back to Steve Michen last week, he stands by what
:05:43. > :05:47.he told me then. You were taken into care and you were sexually
:05:47. > :05:50.abused. Various things would happen, drink would be involved. It was
:05:50. > :05:55.basically rape. But there wouldn't be just him, there would be other
:05:55. > :06:00.people involved as well. Can you tell me how many times did this
:06:00. > :06:03.happen, how many times were you abused by this man? Off my head I
:06:03. > :06:07.wouldn't give an exact number, because obviously I'm going back
:06:07. > :06:12.many, many years, certainly more than a dozen. How were you
:06:12. > :06:17.introduced to him? I was taken to him, by a carer, which, I again, I
:06:17. > :06:25.have said in the tribunal, a cars would pull up outside the home, and
:06:25. > :06:33.you were taken, and there would be a Porsche, a Jag, and you were
:06:33. > :06:37.taken. The abuse occurred in the late 1970, he went to the police.
:06:37. > :06:41.was called a liar, I was pinned up against the wall, I can still name
:06:41. > :06:45.the police officer to this day that done it. The police denied it, when
:06:45. > :06:48.they looked back they finally admitted in the inquiry that
:06:48. > :06:54.statements were made. That is all they would say. They wouldn't say
:06:54. > :06:58.who was named in it, they actually admit I made statements of sexual
:06:58. > :07:03.abuse. You are saying you made these statements of sexual abuse
:07:03. > :07:07.against this senior public figure? Yes I am. In the early 1990s, as
:07:07. > :07:11.allegations of child abuse in North Wales started to surface, another
:07:11. > :07:15.victim came forward. We interviewed him for a previous investigation
:07:15. > :07:19.for BBC Radio Five Live, broadcast in the year 2000, we have been
:07:19. > :07:23.unable to track him down for this report. But he described then, how
:07:23. > :07:28.as a teenager, he was preparing to leave care. Getting ready for a job
:07:28. > :07:32.in the outside world, he wished to remain anonymous. He picked me up
:07:32. > :07:37.one night, and we went to have drinks. To a pub to meet somebody
:07:37. > :07:40.on the promise of a job. And then I was asked if I would meet this
:07:41. > :07:45.person again. I didn't think there was anything to it. So I met him in
:07:45. > :07:50.a car park in Wrexham. That was where I was told to meet him. Then
:07:51. > :07:56.we went out for something to eat, and he pulled over in a layby, and
:07:57. > :08:00.then, hey presto, oral sex took place. He gave me some money, for
:08:00. > :08:05.some strange reason he was going on about Christmas, and a Christmas
:08:05. > :08:09.box, I don't know. He was probably just trying to keep me quiet. I
:08:09. > :08:12.don't know. Were you, at that time, over the age of consent? Was I over
:08:12. > :08:20.the age? No, I was still in the children's home.
:08:20. > :08:26.At the time, in the early 1990, he went to North Wales Police. He
:08:26. > :08:30.showed them faxed photographs of the senior Tory politician.
:08:30. > :08:34.REPORTER: So in front of two police officers, you picked out the
:08:34. > :08:36.photograph? Yeah, yeah, they turned around and said they were faxed
:08:36. > :08:40.photographs and said they were not really reliable, that it wouldn't
:08:40. > :08:43.be a positive ID. And because they weren't there to see it, it could
:08:43. > :08:47.have been anyone. I think that's the way they looked at it.
:08:47. > :08:51.REPORTER: They took no further action? No further action. It may
:08:51. > :08:56.well be that the case was dropped purely because of a lack of
:08:56. > :09:03.evidence. In the late 190, both Stephen and our anonymous victim
:09:03. > :09:06.had another chance to Al-Naimis, they north -- name names at the
:09:06. > :09:10.North Wales tribunal, but hopes were soon dashed. I don't
:09:10. > :09:14.understand why on earth we had an inquiry if we had to leave out 30%
:09:14. > :09:16.of the abuser, and basically I was told to do that. I was told I
:09:16. > :09:20.couldn't go into detail about these people. I couldn't name them and
:09:20. > :09:23.they wouldn't question me on them. Why, what reason did they give?
:09:23. > :09:29.They didn't give me a reason. They just said you were not allowed to
:09:29. > :09:33.do so. And again, he was not alone. What happened was they sent ex-
:09:33. > :09:36.police people to all the witnesses to make a statement. That statement
:09:36. > :09:41.was produced at the tribunal, and you were questioned from that
:09:41. > :09:44.statement. REPORTER: And your statement said nothing about this
:09:44. > :09:47.man? When I made a statement to the police, the police crossed it out
:09:47. > :09:51.and said there was no proof, what was the point, everyone said there
:09:51. > :09:54.was no point, I mean I never thought that, that's
:09:54. > :09:59.what...REPORTER: But the inquiry was your chance to tell someone in
:09:59. > :10:03.power what you believed happened to you? No, no, no, the questions
:10:03. > :10:06.wereiced from your statement, you were asked -- picked from your
:10:06. > :10:10.statement, and you were asked questions from that statement.
:10:10. > :10:13.solicitor represented 30 victims at the inquiry. He believes the
:10:13. > :10:18.original remit and attitudes at the time were at the heart of the
:10:18. > :10:23.problem. The tribunal looked into the abuse of children in care in
:10:23. > :10:28.North Wales and not beyond. There were certainly allegations of that
:10:28. > :10:31.kind that were alluded to at the inquiry, they weren't allegations
:10:31. > :10:34.the inquiry could pursue or explore in any way, because they were
:10:34. > :10:37.outside the terms of reference. That is the terms of reference, do
:10:37. > :10:39.you think the will was there in the inquiry to investigate some of the
:10:39. > :10:42.evidence that was coming up? think the inquiry wanted to
:10:42. > :10:45.investigate where it could, the terms of the reference were an
:10:45. > :10:50.important restriction. I think it is also fair to say, at that time,
:10:50. > :10:54.and we are going back to the mid-to late 1990s here, at that time the
:10:54. > :11:00.idea that senior public figures, politicians, celebrities, could be
:11:00. > :11:04.involved in child abuse, was seen as a bit far fetched. We now know,
:11:04. > :11:12.from recent revelation, that it isn't far fetched at all. That is
:11:12. > :11:17.part of the reason these allegations are looked at again.
:11:17. > :11:21.One of your clients was naming a senior politician. They weren't
:11:21. > :11:25.named in the terms of the inquiry. The evidence we have gathered over
:11:26. > :11:30.the last 20 years remains the same, for now there is not enough to name
:11:30. > :11:36.names. What has changed is the attitude, the public attitude
:11:36. > :11:39.towards child abuse. Given those making these allegations renewed --
:11:39. > :11:43.giving those making these allegations renewed hope for the
:11:43. > :11:47.future. I would like a meeting with David Cameron. He has made a
:11:48. > :11:52.sweeping statement that abused people need to be believed. We
:11:53. > :11:58.haven't been believed. We have been swept under the carpet. It is time
:11:58. > :12:02.he knew the truth, and it is time a full investigation fakes place.
:12:02. > :12:09.Until I meet with him -- takes place. Until I meet with him and
:12:09. > :12:13.get some assurances, I don't believe we will get anywhere.
:12:13. > :12:16.Now, it was the gravest case of expenses fiddling they had ever
:12:16. > :12:20.seen. Parliament's watchdog, the Standards and Privileges Committee,
:12:20. > :12:24.said over a four-year period, the former Labour Europe Minister,
:12:24. > :12:28.Denis MacShane, plainly intended to deceive. As Mr MacShane chose to
:12:28. > :12:38.stand down as an MP, the Metropolitan Police, who dropped a
:12:38. > :12:38.
:12:38. > :12:43.criminal investigation in July, are now being urged to reopen the case.
:12:43. > :12:49.So here we are back in the poisonous world of MPs' expenses.
:12:49. > :12:55.Today we have a real hum dinger. No duck houses, but so serious the MP
:12:55. > :12:59.in question has decided to duck out and resign. Who is this wayward
:12:59. > :13:03.parliamentarian? Mr Denis MacShane. Thank you Mr Speaker, Denis
:13:03. > :13:09.MacShane, MP for Rotherham, former Labour minister, and long-term
:13:09. > :13:14.purveyor of the European dream. So, what did he do? Well, going through
:13:14. > :13:18.this substantial report, the least dreadful aspect of it has to do
:13:18. > :13:25.with Mr MacShane's love of computers. Or, to be more precise,
:13:25. > :13:31.Mr MacShane's love of computers funded by you. Between March 2005
:13:31. > :13:35.and December 2007, the taxpayer provided Mr MacShane with 14
:13:35. > :13:39.computers. As well as six provided by the Commons authorities for free,
:13:40. > :13:43.he also bought a further eight from his allowances. According to the
:13:43. > :13:47.commissioner, this was "excessive", and could not in his judgment be
:13:48. > :13:52.justified. It reflected a cavalier approach to the use of public
:13:52. > :13:56.resources. Indeed, on one occasion it was said that Mr MacShane
:13:56. > :14:00.allowed an outgoing intern to take away with them a parliamentary-
:14:00. > :14:08.funded laptop, then bought a new one for his or her successor. Bad
:14:08. > :14:13.enough, but so far we are only in the foot hills of the MacShane
:14:13. > :14:16.malphesance items. Let as turn to the items that MacShane claimed for
:14:16. > :14:21.that went far beyond the rules according to the committee. Perhaps
:14:21. > :14:24.sensing that unchecked some MPs would use public money to gad about
:14:24. > :14:30.Europe, the parliamentary authorities put in place strict
:14:30. > :14:34.rules, only three visits a year, to specified destinations, only two
:14:34. > :14:43.nights accommodation, all to be approved in the past. But given Mr
:14:43. > :14:48.MacShane's wide continental horizons, this would have cramped
:14:48. > :14:51.his style. He settled on a different interpretation. Although
:14:51. > :14:56.the parliamentary commission said it is hard to be exact, something
:14:56. > :14:59.like �500,000 of invalid expenses were made to Mr MacShane. The
:14:59. > :15:03.official report concludes that he appeared to be using parliamentary
:15:03. > :15:07.funds to entertain his European contacts. To highlight two of the
:15:07. > :15:11.many claims, in November 2007, for example, Mr MacShane charged for a
:15:12. > :15:18.trip to Paris to interview candidates for the post of personal
:15:19. > :15:22.assistant. Also, 2007, he was invited by Jacques Delors, no less,
:15:22. > :15:25.to join a committee to draw up a shortlist for the European Book of
:15:25. > :15:29.the Year. There were no funds to cover the cost of travel and
:15:29. > :15:33.staying in Paris for these meeting, and since he used them to try to
:15:33. > :15:38.advance the case of British writer, Mr MacShane says he therefore saw
:15:38. > :15:43.nothing wrong with passing the bill on to the good old British taxpayer.
:15:43. > :15:48.It's getting worse, isn't it, but we are still not at the worst bit.
:15:48. > :15:55.That is this, the way Mr MacShane submitted his expenses claims. Let
:15:55. > :15:59.me quote directly from this report. "The real mischief of Mr MacShane's
:15:59. > :16:03.actions was the method he adopted in submitting false invoices, by
:16:03. > :16:09.bypassed the checks and controls the House had instituted in a way
:16:10. > :16:15.which enabled Mr MacShane to spend public money as he saw fit."
:16:15. > :16:21.There were a total of 19 misleading invoices. Mr MacShane said they had
:16:21. > :16:25.been submitted to him by the "European Policy Institute", and
:16:25. > :16:28.the invoices were for things like research and translation work, as
:16:28. > :16:33.aed greed. The parliamentary commission on standards found that
:16:33. > :16:36.the institute did not exist. The general manager who signed the
:16:36. > :16:40.invoices was either Mr MacShane himself or somebody else under his
:16:40. > :16:44.authority using a false name. The invoices were created and printed
:16:44. > :16:49.out by Mr MacShane on his computer. In effect, the report says he was
:16:49. > :16:52.sending the invoice to himself, and writing his own cheque. The claims
:16:53. > :16:58.were paid out, unchallenged by the House authorities, and the money
:16:58. > :17:02.put in a separate bank account, which Mr MacShane controlled.
:17:02. > :17:06.This all took place under the old regime, the rules have been
:17:06. > :17:11.tightened up. Mr MacShane says he has repaid all the money, but
:17:11. > :17:15.accepts his parliamentary career is over, and he regrets what he calls
:17:15. > :17:19.his "foolishness". He did emphasise, however, that the report has found
:17:19. > :17:26.that he didn't gain personally from his claims.
:17:26. > :17:29.Denis MacShane, a frequent visitor to Newsnight over the years, but is
:17:29. > :17:32.unavailable this year. How can someone put in so many invoices of
:17:32. > :17:35.this type, getting public money and not be prosecuted? The Metropolitan
:17:35. > :17:39.Police did look at the matter, it was referred to them by the
:17:39. > :17:42.parliamentary authorities way back in 2010. But in July of this year,
:17:42. > :17:46.they decided they would not proceed. It was at that point that the
:17:46. > :17:50.Parliamentary Commissioner repicked up his investigation, if you like.
:17:50. > :17:54.However, a barrier to the police continuing with their investigation,
:17:55. > :17:58.if they so chose, that much of the damning evidence of the nature of
:17:58. > :18:00.these claims comes from Mr MacShane's own hand, if you like,
:18:00. > :18:03.in his own letters to the parliamentary commissioner. There
:18:03. > :18:06.is this big exchange of letters, where the Parliamentary
:18:06. > :18:10.Commissioner keeps asking questions, Mr MacShane answers some of them,
:18:10. > :18:14.and they go backwards and forwards. There is the evidence, however, the
:18:14. > :18:17.parliamentary authorities have confirmed tonight that this is all
:18:17. > :18:20.subject to parliamentary privilege. It means the police can only use it
:18:20. > :18:25.as a suggestion for how they might take their investigation forward,
:18:25. > :18:30.but it can't be used as evidence in court. You can feel the steam
:18:30. > :18:34.coming out of people's ears as they listen to this, also MPs of all
:18:34. > :18:38.parties absolutely hate this? is why you are talking to me rather
:18:38. > :18:41.than an MP from a political party. This is the last thing they wanted.
:18:41. > :18:45.MPs' expenses they thought they had put behind them. This is the old
:18:45. > :18:50.regime, it has come back to haunt them again.
:18:50. > :18:54.There is nothing lovelier, especially at this time of year,
:18:54. > :19:01.than Britain's old deciduous woodlands, but for how much longer.
:19:01. > :19:05.After a meet of the emergency sons response unit, COBRA today,
:19:05. > :19:12.hundreds of volunteers will be out assessing the damage that could be
:19:12. > :19:15.used by Chalara fraxinea, or dieback. Thousands of trees have
:19:15. > :19:18.died in Denmark, with Owen Paterson facing stiff questioning from
:19:18. > :19:20.parliament next week, it appears Britain could have received
:19:20. > :19:28.warnings about the disease going back to 2009.
:19:28. > :19:32.We have this report. This small wood in Suffolk was
:19:32. > :19:37.where the fungal ash disease was first found in the wild in Britain.
:19:37. > :19:41.It has infected hundreds of trees, blighting this much-valued piece of
:19:42. > :19:46.forest. The whole of the top of this branch is dying back. It is a
:19:46. > :19:53.different colour bark from the healthy tissue below. That is
:19:53. > :19:56.really obvious. Putting them down could spread the fungal spores. The
:19:56. > :20:00.forest's owners, the Woodland Trust, want the Government to tell them
:20:00. > :20:05.what to do. We haven't a clear idea of how we should be tackling the
:20:05. > :20:08.disease. We don't have clear advice from the commission. Hopefully, if
:20:08. > :20:12.need be, the public will rally around, and the Government will
:20:12. > :20:16.rally around and we will get adequate resores to deal with a
:20:16. > :20:21.growing problem. It all began with a mysterious disease in ash trees
:20:21. > :20:27.in Poland, 20 years ago. It spread across the continent, it was
:20:27. > :20:33.spotted in 2003 in Denmark. It was identified, named Chalara fraxinea,
:20:33. > :20:38.and carried on moving. In parts of Denmark, 90% of the ash trees died.
:20:38. > :20:41.After a visit there in 2009, a group from the British
:20:41. > :20:46.horticultural trades association, warned the Government's Forestry
:20:46. > :20:50.Commission, it could reach the UK. They called for a ban on imports.
:20:50. > :20:56.The commission said, they believed the fungus was already endemic in
:20:56. > :21:01.Britain, meaning a ban would break EU law. They said their hands were
:21:01. > :21:05.tied. The next year the disease was confirmed in the netherlands and
:21:05. > :21:09.Belgium, just across the North Sea. This year, it was found in trees
:21:09. > :21:14.imported from the Netherlands in a Buckinghamshire nursery. Other
:21:14. > :21:23.nurseries had infected trees too. And last month, it was informed in
:21:23. > :21:29.the wild. Meetings in the Cabinet Office Briefing Room A, COBRA, are
:21:29. > :21:36.usually for national emergencies or disasters, today was a meeting on
:21:36. > :21:41.the ash tree crisis. The Government insisted they had act at the --
:21:41. > :21:45.acted at the right speed. It was first discovered on the 7th of
:21:45. > :21:48.March in a nursery in Buckinghamshire. Which led to the
:21:48. > :21:53.programmes tracing forwards and back wards on the young stock, it
:21:53. > :21:57.has led to 100,000 trees being deployed. We think it has blown in,
:21:57. > :22:01.in East Anglia in mature tree, that has led to the survey across the
:22:01. > :22:06.grid. We then took action, last week, by banning all import, and
:22:06. > :22:10.all movements of young trees, within the UK. Because this is the
:22:10. > :22:14.planting season. Two-and-a-half thousand areas will be surveyed,
:22:14. > :22:20.giving a clear picture, it is expected, around the middle of next
:22:20. > :22:26.week. Then the Government will announce its next steps. Meanwhile
:22:26. > :22:31.they have said visitors to woodland should wash their bots. I think it
:22:31. > :22:35.is a good thing, the moratorium is a good thing. I would have like
:22:35. > :22:40.today have seen it sooner. The disease was detected in February,
:22:40. > :22:45.the longer you leave these diseases the harder they are to tackle. We
:22:46. > :22:49.have seen it with the moth issue, if we had dealt with it five years
:22:49. > :22:54.ago when it was detect, we would have spent then what we have to
:22:54. > :23:00.spend every year containing it. years ago, a foreign fungus
:23:00. > :23:09.attacked British tree, within two decades, 25 million elms had fallen.
:23:09. > :23:11.Many fear now the ash could be next. We requested an interview with the
:23:11. > :23:15.Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, neither the
:23:15. > :23:17.Secretary of State, his ministers, the chief scientific adviser, nor a
:23:17. > :23:21.representative from the Forestry Commission were available. We are
:23:21. > :23:26.joined by the environmental campaigner, George Monbiot, and
:23:26. > :23:29.from Leeds by Anne McIntosh, a Conservative MP, and chair of the
:23:29. > :23:33.Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee.
:23:33. > :23:37.Owen Paterson suggesting we wash our dogs, our boots and children
:23:37. > :23:42.after visiting woodland areas, but is he a bit shaky on the science,
:23:42. > :23:48.if this is an airborne fungus? think absolutely. The science is
:23:48. > :23:53.very inexact. A number of questions have to be asked. DEFRA was first
:23:53. > :23:57.told in 2009 that the fungus existed in this country. Questions
:23:57. > :24:01.have to be asked, it reached Denmark in 2003, and did
:24:01. > :24:05.devastating damage, in a very short period of time. I think before we
:24:05. > :24:10.proceed with anything we need to know exactly what causes this, and
:24:11. > :24:15.what causes it to spread the fungus quite so quickly as it apparently
:24:16. > :24:19.appears to be doing. There are 80 million ash tree, some privately
:24:19. > :24:22.owned, some publicly owned. It could be absolutely devastating.
:24:22. > :24:27.Does that mean when you get the chance, your committee will not
:24:27. > :24:32.just want to talk to Mr Paterson, but presumably his predesos sor,
:24:32. > :24:37.and the Labour predecessor, -- predecessor, and the Labour
:24:37. > :24:39.predecessor, you would like to hear from all of them? We would like the
:24:39. > :24:43.opportunity to question the Secretary of State and looking at
:24:43. > :24:49.the Annual Reports and accounts. We will have the possibility of
:24:50. > :24:58.looking at that. In my own area I have been briefed by the Forestry
:24:58. > :25:03.Commission, and the other groups. It is incumbent on all of us. It is
:25:03. > :25:06.a fragmented industry, that is possibly one of the problems of
:25:06. > :25:09.knowing. One of the things I don't understand, if it is a native tree,
:25:09. > :25:16.if it is growing so naturally in our own environment, why we are
:25:16. > :25:19.dependant on importing young saplings to replenish the natural
:25:19. > :25:23.ash trees in this country. George Monbiot is nodding along with that.
:25:23. > :25:29.You asked for the Government to do something, it is doing something,
:25:29. > :25:32.this survey of 2,500 sites, big effort? It is now going to tell us
:25:32. > :25:36.how bad the problem is, but not what we should do about the problem.
:25:36. > :25:39.Basically it is too late. It will destroy the majority of Britain's
:25:39. > :25:42.ash trees, that seems absolutely clear and probably the best thing
:25:42. > :25:46.to do is leave those trees in place. If you start trying to cut them all
:25:46. > :25:49.down, it will make the environmental problem even worse.
:25:49. > :25:54.The real responsibility for this does not lie with Owen Paterson, it
:25:54. > :25:58.lies with his two predecessor, with Hillary Benn and Caroline Spelman.
:25:58. > :26:01.If I were in Anne's position, I would be asking them what the heck
:26:01. > :26:06.they thought they were doing. The warnings were absolutely clear.
:26:06. > :26:10.They were clear in 2009, they were clearer still in 2010, when it
:26:10. > :26:14.became established that this wasn't an old pathogen, known about before
:26:14. > :26:18.in this country, it was a novel disease organism, and we should
:26:18. > :26:25.keeping it out, by banning imports then. What Paterson has done now,
:26:25. > :26:30.is exactly what should have been done two or three years ago. An
:26:30. > :26:35.import ban, a shut down of this insane trade. It turns out we were
:26:35. > :26:39.sending ash seeds from here to the Netherland, where they were then
:26:39. > :26:42.grown up into saplings and sent back into this country, infected
:26:42. > :26:46.with this disease. Are you then happy with what has been announced
:26:46. > :26:50.today, this survey. Is that good news, or is it as George Monbiot is
:26:50. > :26:56.suggesting rather pointless, because it is far too late? It is
:26:56. > :27:00.not pointless. I think we need to know the extent of the infestation,
:27:00. > :27:06.the infection of the disease. I think it is absolutely vital that
:27:06. > :27:10.we know how wide it has spread. But we must be guided by science. I
:27:10. > :27:15.think that I don't want to enter into a blame culture, but you have
:27:15. > :27:18.to examine why in 2009, when the industry, the horticultural trade
:27:18. > :27:22.association told DEFRA, that the disease was in this country, why
:27:22. > :27:26.the science didn't establish the extent of the disease then. A
:27:26. > :27:32.number of questions have to be asked. I think one thing that has
:27:32. > :27:36.been established, and I welcome this, is that we clearly have been
:27:36. > :27:40.better prepared with animal health disease than we have been with
:27:40. > :27:43.plant health disease. I think we need to restore that balance.
:27:43. > :27:46.you worry that even establishing this, and what went wrong in the
:27:46. > :27:52.past, it is not really going to help us now, because it is too
:27:52. > :27:57.late? It might be. We don't yet know, but I think that the more
:27:57. > :28:01.worrying thing is there are other diseases affecting other tree, and
:28:01. > :28:04.other plants. To a certain extent it is a little bit like the health
:28:04. > :28:08.service, you are never going to have enough resources to actually
:28:08. > :28:14.look at this. One thing I do welcome is the fact that European
:28:15. > :28:18.research is being funded, across the piece, with much fund match
:28:18. > :28:21.funding from this Government. So we can share that science. It has to
:28:21. > :28:24.be science shared. What do you think we are facing now? We are
:28:24. > :28:29.going to see the great majority of Britain's ash trees wiped out.
:28:29. > :28:33.People are talking about maybe 1-2% surviving, because they might be
:28:33. > :28:38.resistant. What we are talking about is not just a number of trees,
:28:38. > :28:43.a very large number ofs, perhaps 30% of the trees in the British
:28:43. > :28:46.landscape. We're talking about some of the most ancient, culturally
:28:46. > :28:50.loaded trees that we have. Possibly the oldest tree in Britain is an
:28:50. > :28:56.ash tree. These are trees which carry a great weight of nature, but
:28:56. > :28:59.also a great weight of cultural. Some of people have been
:28:59. > :29:04.continually coppiceed or Pollarded for many hundreds of years. They
:29:04. > :29:12.have been used to make handles for tools and weapons for all that time.
:29:12. > :29:18.We are losing a part of ourselves as well as the natural world. The
:29:18. > :29:24.review show is up next. The special election is on our
:29:24. > :29:29.cultural radar. What impact do shows like Modern Family and others
:29:29. > :29:35.have on the election. We will be discussing Tom Wolfe's new novel,
:29:35. > :29:40.Back to Blood, and a show attacking Obama. Also the radio ambassador to
:29:40. > :29:42.the UK whose archive is on-line. Join me Sarah Churchwell, Lindsay
:29:42. > :29:46.Johns and Lionel Shriver in a moment.