:00:13. > :00:18.The Congress is over, the new man's in place, now the world's watching
:00:18. > :00:23.for China's next move. But do the Chinese themselves have any great
:00:23. > :00:27.expectations of their new President. On the streets we found
:00:27. > :00:32.indifference to the new leader, and the party knows it faces dangerous
:00:32. > :00:35.levels of mistrust. Each of our guests knows China
:00:35. > :00:39.intimately, is there any certainty about what happens now?
:00:39. > :00:43.Tilting at windmill, is the great drive for on shore energy about to
:00:44. > :00:48.hit the doldrums. A Conservative MP take on his Lib Dem colleague and
:00:48. > :00:52.rival over the need to recommit to renewables.
:00:52. > :00:55.Also tonight, doesn't this drive you crazy, it is a menace, it is
:00:55. > :01:05.harassment, and it is everywhere. We will tell you why the PPI claims
:01:05. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:17.business is growing, and why Good evening. The man who will lead
:01:17. > :01:20.the most populist country in the world was confirmed in post today.
:01:20. > :01:25.Xi Jinping, and his committee of six, will be in charge of one
:01:25. > :01:28.billion souls for the next decade, all of whom have big economic
:01:28. > :01:32.expectation. Whether bigger wealth, healthcare or pensions, many also
:01:32. > :01:37.desire more personal and political freedom. What will his rule look
:01:37. > :01:42.like? Less corrupt? Expansionist? Will growth stutter? Will social
:01:42. > :01:48.media become an unstoppable engine of change? We will discuss all this
:01:48. > :01:53.and more in a moment. First, Paul Mason witnessed the Changing of the
:01:53. > :01:56.Guard. Kirsty, hello from the first
:01:56. > :02:00.freezing cold and foggy dawn of the Xi Jinping era.
:02:00. > :02:06.What do we know about him? He's the son of a revolutionary leader, he
:02:06. > :02:08.has strong links with the military. He has run three provinces in China
:02:09. > :02:14.the size of small European countries, and run them well. And
:02:14. > :02:20.he does not speak like a "speak your weight" machine. What else do
:02:20. > :02:23.we know? The obvious signals are that the party has been given. He
:02:23. > :02:26.has been given simultaneous control both of the party and mill
:02:27. > :02:29.treatment we will not get one of those torturous handovers from one
:02:29. > :02:33.generation to the next that we had ten years ago. The small
:02:33. > :02:38.commitmenty that runs the party has been cut -- committee that runs the
:02:38. > :02:42.party has been cut from nine to seven. From that party there is a
:02:42. > :02:48.near majority of conservatives, so, there is clearly a change. There is
:02:48. > :02:52.a change of guard. We also saw him become slightly emotional in his
:02:52. > :02:58.speech. He really gave a speech, rather than a report.
:02:58. > :03:04.In terms of setting the tone, even as he was speaking, live to the
:03:04. > :03:08.Chinese people, the strapline underneath him on state TV was
:03:08. > :03:12.saying, the country faces serious challenges. If we have been focused
:03:12. > :03:15.on this leadership handover, what we may have underplayed, and what
:03:15. > :03:20.is most significant, is the outgoing leaders, and the in coming
:03:20. > :03:30.leaders, are now talking openly about the party's crisis of
:03:30. > :03:31.
:03:31. > :03:36.legitimacy. The international unites the human
:03:36. > :03:41.race, goes the anthem. One sixth of the human race is governed from
:03:41. > :03:50.this hall, by a party determined to cling to power, and to go on
:03:50. > :03:54.playing the old tunes. Hi, thank you.
:03:54. > :04:02.Resolution of the 18th Congress of the Communist Party. On the report
:04:02. > :04:07.of the central committee. Thanks. At this session, they are amending
:04:07. > :04:14.the party constitution, the man on the left, Hu Jintao, is having his
:04:14. > :04:19.own personal theory added to the theory of his predecessor, Jiang
:04:19. > :04:23.Zemin, on the right. I have tagged along with party member, Mr Woo, a
:04:23. > :04:33.press reporter, to find out what it means. What is important to your
:04:33. > :04:37.readers about all of this? We are very concerned about the transition
:04:37. > :04:42.of power, who is going to be in the leadership. Not really too much
:04:42. > :04:46.about what's in the constitution. It is theory, these are too
:04:46. > :04:53.abstract. But the readers want to know who is who? Who the next
:04:53. > :04:56.person? Definitely. The man in the middle Xi Jinping,
:04:56. > :05:01.is the in coming leader, he will have to represent between business
:05:01. > :05:06.and the new elite, and the needs of workers, and peasants and the
:05:06. > :05:11.middle-class. The real mystery in this Congress is still, why is the
:05:11. > :05:16.old guard leader, Zemin right, front and centre for the party. Is
:05:16. > :05:20.he there to symbolise stability, while the new leadership pursues
:05:20. > :05:23.rapid change. Or is he there, on the contrary, to signal that there
:05:23. > :05:28.won't be any rapid change. You would like to think that 25 people
:05:28. > :05:35.in the leadership of this party of 60 million know the answer, but
:05:35. > :05:39.maybe, nobody knows. With the conference over, the real
:05:39. > :05:45.decision making is about to begin. The party carefully recruits from
:05:45. > :05:50.all over China, workers, the middle-class, the ethnic minorities.
:05:50. > :05:54.As the delegates disperse, behind the scenes they are picking the
:05:54. > :06:01.seven-man team that will lead China, that is where the struggle is going
:06:01. > :06:07.Meanwhile, all over Beijing, the old guard is out. Volunteer
:06:07. > :06:10.security people, many of them elderly. Tran If we find any kind
:06:10. > :06:14.of -- TRANSLATION: If we find any kind of situation, any special
:06:14. > :06:18.situation, we can give the local leaders a call straight away, and
:06:18. > :06:21.the police or someone will come. Even here, they are aware the party
:06:21. > :06:29.has to deliver more than it has done.
:06:29. > :06:31.TRANSLATION: I'm concerned about housing, ordinary people's
:06:31. > :06:36.livelihoods, our salaries, pensions and social order, these are the
:06:36. > :06:41.things that I pay attention to. Here, this street is peaceful, in
:06:41. > :06:48.fact, this street is called "peace and quiet avenue". What I'm really
:06:48. > :06:54.worried about is rent. It is very difficult for us to rent a home.
:06:54. > :06:58.What matters now is the make up of the standing committee that runs
:06:58. > :07:03.the party. On a street corner, under a big screen, it is not
:07:03. > :07:09.exactly masses of people who have come out to see who has been chosen.
:07:09. > :07:13.Eventually, to a hall full of international journalists, the new
:07:13. > :07:23.seven-man committee emerges. Xi Jinping will become President, the
:07:23. > :07:24.
:07:24. > :07:27.next man, Peng Liyuan, will be the PM. There is only one from the old
:07:27. > :07:32.regime, and three are hardliners. This is the equivalent of a
:07:32. > :07:36.presidential election in a country- times bigger than the United States.
:07:36. > :07:38.It has only -- five-times bigger than the United States. It has only
:07:38. > :07:43.happened twice in the modern history of this country. The
:07:43. > :07:49.reaction on the streets is...You could say, not ecstatic. Eventually
:07:49. > :07:55.we found some people who were interested. What do you think of
:07:55. > :08:02.the election of Xi Jinping to be leader of China? I think he will do
:08:03. > :08:12.his good job too. For economic or something like that. To help China
:08:13. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :08:20.get stronger. What is the number one thing you want him to do?
:08:20. > :08:28.think maybe increase our salaries! What's the number one problem you
:08:28. > :08:34.want them to address? TRANSLATION: I feel the main problem is the
:08:34. > :08:38.civil administration. Another think Qishan, what's his name, needs to
:08:38. > :08:43.solve is the problem of Taiwan and the problems of the disputed
:08:43. > :08:52.islands. TRANSLATION: I like him, he's good
:08:52. > :09:00.for the country, life goes on. is the short translation.
:09:00. > :09:04.To them, and 1.4 billion like them, the new leader had this message.
:09:04. > :09:07.TRANSLATION: Under the new conditions, our party face many
:09:07. > :09:10.severe challenges. There are also many proseing problems within the
:09:10. > :09:13.party that need to be he -- pressing problems within the party
:09:13. > :09:20.that need to be resolved. Corruption, being divorced from the
:09:20. > :09:26.people, going through formalities and butter oxism. The party knows
:09:27. > :09:29.bureaucracyism. The party knows it could harm economic growth and
:09:29. > :09:33.strangle innovation. It knows growth will have to come from more
:09:33. > :09:38.consumption and a richer middle- class. It knows behind the apathy,
:09:38. > :09:44.there is discontent. TRANSLATION: In the past year the
:09:44. > :09:47.Chinese leaders are all reading one book, the book on the French
:09:47. > :09:51.Revolution. People are worried China will have a revolution, we
:09:51. > :09:56.don't want that. For this new leadership, they have just one
:09:56. > :09:59.choice, that is reform. Otherwise they and China will be in big
:09:59. > :10:04.trouble. What should they concentrate on,
:10:04. > :10:09.politics or economics? TRANSLATION: Politics, of course. In economics,
:10:09. > :10:13.the space for further growth is already very limited. Actually, the
:10:13. > :10:19.Chinese people are already quite rich. What we need to solve now are
:10:19. > :10:24.the political problems. ordinary people, who have had no
:10:24. > :10:27.say in the outcome of this week, it is a case of dodging and weaving,
:10:27. > :10:35.surviving. They will wait and see what a new set of people in power
:10:35. > :10:38.can bring. We have been joined by Paul Mason
:10:38. > :10:42.now. That independent scholar saying
:10:42. > :10:45.there is only one choice and that is reform. How can that be
:10:45. > :10:51.reconciled with a conservative committee of seven? We're in the
:10:51. > :10:57.presence of experts, we soon will be. My take on the seven are, three
:10:57. > :11:07.clear conservatives, three neutral technocrat, and one remnant of the
:11:07. > :11:08.
:11:08. > :11:12.liberal social welfare faction of Hu Jintao. That will be the new PM,
:11:12. > :11:16.if we take that at a starting point, that is at odds with urban China
:11:16. > :11:19.and young China is feeling. If it is a result of the way the party
:11:19. > :11:24.has genuinely picked its leadership, we don't know, it probably means
:11:24. > :11:28.the party is at odds with the way urban China feels. You could tell
:11:28. > :11:32.from that package, they know that, but their reflex is to respond with
:11:32. > :11:35.more control. Of the two big leaders who are being announced on
:11:35. > :11:39.the front pages of the local newspaper today in Beijing, one is
:11:39. > :11:47.the discipline guy. But they are going to have to address things
:11:47. > :11:52.quickly. The corruption issue is not an abstract one, Muhammad Ali
:11:52. > :11:56.will be dealt with and put on -- Bolshi Li, will have to be dealt
:11:56. > :11:59.with and put on trial. They will have to get a foreign policy, the
:11:59. > :12:05.dispute of China with the islands is playing out on the streets. They
:12:05. > :12:08.will have to respond to that. talked about young China, is that
:12:08. > :12:12.where the pressure is coming from, you spoke to two young women who
:12:12. > :12:16.didn't seem to care less about what was happening. Is your sense that
:12:16. > :12:19.they are the predominant area for change, that will be from the young
:12:19. > :12:22.Chinese? We have had the chance to speak to lot of young people,
:12:22. > :12:27.actually, while we have been here. And I think this is how it strikes
:12:27. > :12:32.me. Three years ago, when I was here, did it matter that you
:12:32. > :12:37.weren't on Facebook and Twitter and Tumblr, and your iPhone suddenly
:12:37. > :12:42.gets switched off when the Congress starts, and you can't search on
:12:42. > :12:45.Google for the term "18th Congress", it didn't feel like that. It feels
:12:45. > :12:49.like now that China is adrift from a global conversation. That matters,
:12:49. > :12:54.not just about democracy, but for business, for the business of doing
:12:54. > :12:58.life in the 21st century. It does feel a little bit locked, and the
:12:58. > :13:07.youth feel very locked into their own discussion on their equivalent
:13:07. > :13:10.of Twitter, I would bow, that is a -- weibo, that is abuzz with
:13:11. > :13:20.Sarkism, criticism and concern about national issues. You heard
:13:20. > :13:24.the liberal intellectual in my piece talk about Alexis De
:13:24. > :13:29.Tockville and the book about the French Revolution. On the eve of
:13:29. > :13:33.the French parliament, the author said, "gentlemen, can't you feel
:13:33. > :13:36.the earthquakes coming", that was on the eve of the French Revolution.
:13:36. > :13:46.They have nobody to say anything for them here, they have nobody to
:13:46. > :13:54.say anything whatsoever in their public discourse. With me here now
:13:54. > :13:58.Are my guests. From New York I'm joined by a
:13:58. > :14:03.former Tiananmen Square student leader, Chinese democracy activist
:14:03. > :14:09.and dissident in exile. And from Beijing by the author, Jonathan
:14:09. > :14:14.Fenby.Ed goo evening. First of all, -- good evening, first of all what
:14:14. > :14:19.do you think the main desires are the people, you have family at home,
:14:19. > :14:24.what are their desires? My family, I have brothers, and my mother,
:14:24. > :14:29.they are two generations, and then I have my nephews and cousins. So
:14:29. > :14:33.they actually have changed quite gradually in terms of their quality
:14:33. > :14:41.of life. Their major concern is to get better education, and maybe get
:14:41. > :14:46.a secure job, with a good salary. So the desire today is very
:14:46. > :14:50.different from ten, 20 years ago, from the earlier generation.
:14:50. > :14:54.that quite a big pressure, we heard from the older women in the film
:14:54. > :14:58.saying they want houses they could rent, healthcare, pensions. They
:14:58. > :15:03.are not prosaic demand, but they are very straight forward, they
:15:03. > :15:11.don't seem to be related to essential freedoms? I think they
:15:11. > :15:20.are different layers of a desire. You have to have enough food to eat
:15:20. > :15:25.and clothe. In Chinese it is large ly that, this is contributed by Xi
:15:25. > :15:30.Jinping's reform, this is a Chinese miracle. Today we are talking about
:15:30. > :15:33.people moving in a different stage, a called well off society with a
:15:33. > :15:39.better life. Then you have equality. That is now a problem, the
:15:39. > :15:43.Government have to ease off. You are talking about free -- freedom
:15:43. > :15:48.of speech and democracy. That is a higher level of requirement.
:15:48. > :15:54.Where you sit in New York, you are one of the Tiananmen Square leaders,
:15:54. > :15:57.this idea of this pressure building, do you think it comes, first of all,
:15:57. > :16:04.from the idea that people want a better lifestyle, and a better
:16:04. > :16:11.chance in society, rather than overt political requirement? These
:16:11. > :16:17.are interlinked, people do want a better life, always. And then I
:16:17. > :16:21.agree with the Professor, people often want humble, minimal things.
:16:22. > :16:27.But these things and the political rights are closely tied together.
:16:27. > :16:33.My family, my desire, or my desire of my parents, they want to see me.
:16:33. > :16:38.We haven't seen each other for 23 years. I'm not changing the topic
:16:38. > :16:43.from a National Congress into my family PD business. I'm talking
:16:43. > :16:47.about China is conducting this kind of behaviour, Chinese regime
:16:47. > :16:52.conducting this kind of behaviour, which is unheard in a western
:16:52. > :16:58.democracy. This is the political fact. That has a very direct impact
:16:58. > :17:01.to people's humble, minimum desires. And people must remember, for all
:17:01. > :17:09.its sophistication, and all its economic interaction, that people
:17:09. > :17:14.like you can't go home the Chinese artist, Wei Wei, is under house
:17:14. > :17:16.arrest. This is all part of Chinese life. You were there ten days a
:17:16. > :17:20.Isabel Hilton, when we talk now about the need to actually deal
:17:20. > :17:23.with corruption, it is not a side bar to the economic life of the
:17:23. > :17:28.country, isn't it, it is really central to the economic life of the
:17:28. > :17:32.country? It is absolutely central, but it was, as I'm sure will be
:17:32. > :17:36.confirmed, it was a huge issue in 1989. How long do we have to go on
:17:36. > :17:40.talking about corruption. It has only got worse, since 1989. Funnily
:17:40. > :17:44.enough with social media, et cetera, this idea of citizens surveillance,
:17:44. > :17:48.that if they see a lowly official driving around in a Ferrari, they
:17:48. > :17:50.report him or her. That was impossible before? It was
:17:50. > :17:54.impossible before. But also the scale of corruption was impossible
:17:54. > :17:59.before. The transition to the market, or the semi-market economy,
:17:59. > :18:04.has opened this opportunity for this particular combination of
:18:04. > :18:09.power and money in China. And the party is hugely enriched, if you
:18:09. > :18:11.look at the figures of who are the richest in China, they are
:18:11. > :18:15.predominantly in the party or associated with the party. But the
:18:15. > :18:23.young people that Paul spoke to earlier, seemed non-plused about
:18:23. > :18:27.the result. It was almost, as if it gets better for me then it is OK.
:18:27. > :18:34.You are asking people who have no effect ofpb the outcome. They have
:18:34. > :18:39.to accept what they are given, they can only hope As far as what people
:18:39. > :18:44.hope for and want, what is the party afraid of, people no longer
:18:44. > :18:49.trust it t they mock it liberally, people want health, they are afraid
:18:49. > :18:55.of getting ill, many want afford treament, they know they will be
:18:55. > :19:02.bankrupt, they have tremendous insecurities. The Chinese
:19:02. > :19:06.leadership reading De Tockveiled, is there a fear now, looking at
:19:06. > :19:10.what happens happening in Europe, a time of os terity, people not
:19:10. > :19:16.having jobs -- austerity, people not having jobs, that the worst
:19:16. > :19:20.thing that could happen in China is chaos? DeTockville said one of the
:19:20. > :19:23.main reasons for the French Revolution is things had got better,
:19:23. > :19:29.and the danger of rising living standards, which make people think,
:19:29. > :19:36.no, we will not live as poor, downtrodden peasants for our lives,
:19:36. > :19:39.we want rights. Referring back to things said earlier, there is this
:19:39. > :19:42.sociopolitical undercurrent, that is very strong in China today. It
:19:42. > :19:46.is not a demand for western democracy, as such, it is a demand
:19:46. > :19:51.for rights to property, it is a demand for rights to free speech,
:19:51. > :19:55.it is a demand for right to freedom from the horrible environmental
:19:55. > :20:01.pollution. All these things people are beginning to reach out for, and
:20:01. > :20:07.they want those. The great problem for Xi Jinping, which was evident
:20:08. > :20:12.in his remarks about the need for social progress, yesterday, is can
:20:12. > :20:17.the one-party communist state, with its whole apparatus and power
:20:17. > :20:20.system, cope with those kinds of grassroots demands which are taking
:20:21. > :20:24.place on an enormous scale in China. This is really the big story of
:20:24. > :20:27.China, not the economic story, it is not the formal, political story,
:20:27. > :20:34.it is the social story for the next five years.
:20:34. > :20:37.First of all, I want to talk about Isabel Hilton, ten days ago, were
:20:37. > :20:45.people talking about that undercurrent of discontent, that
:20:45. > :20:49.people want things changed or not? I think it is very present. The
:20:49. > :20:52.party want to put it in the context of without us there is chaos. When
:20:52. > :20:57.they are talking about political reform, they are talking about
:20:58. > :21:01.managing the kind of protests that Jonathan is discussing. And these
:21:01. > :21:05.are very big protests. In the run up to Congress you saw the
:21:05. > :21:10.Government backing down on major environmental protests. Will there
:21:10. > :21:14.be, do you think, will it be like Tiananmen Square, if there is a
:21:14. > :21:19.protest, or will it be something different? You heard from Paul
:21:19. > :21:23.there, saying a new generation, access is global -- accesses global
:21:23. > :21:28.media and 0 son, wants to be in touch with people. Will it be, like
:21:28. > :21:32.if it comes, be like Tiananmen Square? I can't make that
:21:32. > :21:37.prediction, I can report to you this, there are hundreds of
:21:37. > :21:41.thousands of uprisings taking places current low every year, in
:21:41. > :21:47.China. A different scale from different places. -- currently
:21:47. > :21:51.every year, in China, a different scale for different places. Taking
:21:52. > :21:55.a protest to Tiananmen Square it was suppressed 23 years ago, it has
:21:55. > :22:01.established fear for people to do so. The anger and dissatisfaction
:22:01. > :22:07.is very much present, and accumulating there. It is coming up
:22:07. > :22:11.from different directions. Although it may not be another Tiananmen
:22:11. > :22:16.Square, but the Communist Party know the power of something like
:22:16. > :22:23.Tiananmen Square is definitely there. And then it is directly
:22:24. > :22:30.threatening their stability. So the Chinese regime have been spending
:22:30. > :22:35.more money on called maintaining stability than the national defence.
:22:35. > :22:39.Basically, internal security expenditures has exceeded national
:22:39. > :22:43.defence since 2007. The fear is on both sides. People are afraid of
:22:44. > :22:47.the military supression for sure, when you see something like
:22:47. > :22:53.Tiananmen Square happening, and then you kind of leave a fear for
:22:53. > :22:58.sure. But the Communist Party, the regime has also a very strong fear.
:22:58. > :23:02.Very briefly, do you think there is talk that it will be five years and
:23:02. > :23:05.then after five years Xi Jinping will be able to effect the kind of
:23:05. > :23:10.changes he wants to change. Do you think there will be a holding the
:23:10. > :23:17.position for five years, socially and politically, or not? There are
:23:17. > :23:21.two things they have to do to hold this stability. One is to really
:23:21. > :23:30.get out and fight corruption. And establish a clean Government system.
:23:30. > :23:35.That corruption can be prevented. I look at the new leader, they put
:23:35. > :23:38.the person in to fight corruption, he's one of the most respected
:23:38. > :23:43.politicians in China with a reputation outside. I have very
:23:43. > :23:46.good trust in him. The problem with this task is it may be very, very
:23:47. > :23:51.big, how they contend is depending on the number of factor. First of
:23:52. > :23:56.all, the economy has to continue to grow. So the people, materially,
:23:56. > :24:00.they can improve their living standards. So that this content can
:24:00. > :24:04.be suppressed in terms of the improvement of living standards.
:24:04. > :24:12.Then fighting the corruption, and clean up the environment. These are
:24:12. > :24:17.the issues they have to deal with, urgently.
:24:17. > :24:22.Wind farms, rising electricity cost, and forced lower tarrifs, nuclear
:24:22. > :24:26.power station, the Green Deal. Are we not all drown anything a sea of
:24:26. > :24:30.contradictory signals over future energy policy. The Government is
:24:30. > :24:33.xek today publish the long anticipated Energy Bill next week,
:24:33. > :24:39.with open warfare between the parties particularly on the
:24:39. > :24:44.question of offshore wind, will politics or hard evidence dominate
:24:44. > :24:49.the bill? On shore wind is one of the most
:24:49. > :24:58.mature of our renewable sources of energy. Its opponents are vocal.
:24:58. > :25:03.They see turbines as a blight, and resent taxpayer subsidies oinggon
:25:03. > :25:07.that. There is a row over how many wind turbines like these we want to
:25:07. > :25:10.build to meet our will electricity needs. What is the best energy
:25:10. > :25:15.option environmental low, and how much are we, the taxpayer, prepared
:25:15. > :25:22.to pay for it. Renewables advocates argue that the
:25:22. > :25:26.cost of on shore wind is falling. On-shore wind, today, costs us
:25:26. > :25:34.about 20% of what it cost us when we started to build it. As the cost
:25:34. > :25:39.come down, we would expect the invent advisers in development of
:25:39. > :25:44.wind to come down, incentivisers in development of wind come down. And
:25:44. > :25:47.the Government accepted a 10% reduction in that support mechanism
:25:47. > :25:52.What is a fair assessment of the economics of wind power. One
:25:52. > :25:59.comparison is the relative cost of generating a unit of electricity.
:25:59. > :26:03.Current estimates suggest on-shore wind comes out at the two-thirds
:26:03. > :26:06.the cost of offshore wind. At its cheapest it costs about the same at
:26:06. > :26:12.gas, at the most expensive it is comparable with coal. And it comes
:26:12. > :26:16.in about the same cost as nuclear. Though researchers warn that
:26:16. > :26:21.nuclear costs could rise. On shore wind is one of the most cost
:26:21. > :26:28.effective options we have got, it is one of the most cost effective
:26:28. > :26:32.low-carbon options we have got. Meeting our targets without on
:26:32. > :26:42.shore wind would be particularly hard to do. This is where renewable
:26:42. > :26:46.
:26:46. > :26:51.28% from on shore wind, about half as much from offshore wind, and
:26:51. > :26:57.then solar. Overall, renewable sources provide only Tyney slice sf
:26:57. > :27:03.our total energy needs. Just -- tiny slice of our total energy
:27:03. > :27:07.needs. About 10%. We are committed to producing 15% of total energy
:27:08. > :27:15.from renewables. Those who prefer a free market approach, say subsidies
:27:15. > :27:20.and targets are the wrong way to shift us to a a different energy
:27:20. > :27:25.supply. The only targets that are mar are reducing carbon emissions.
:27:25. > :27:30.The renewable energy target is not an important part of meeting that.
:27:30. > :27:33.In some ways it gets in the way. A much better approach is a long-term,
:27:33. > :27:37.and tougher carbon price, tkphrifrd either through a tax or through --
:27:37. > :27:43.delivered either through a tax or cap. Some support for technology.
:27:43. > :27:45.But get to go a stage where these technologies -- getting to a stage
:27:45. > :27:49.where these technologies compete against each other for the cheapest
:27:49. > :27:53.way of delivering energy. On shore wind has become a flash point for
:27:53. > :27:57.the coalition Government. With Conservative minister, John Hayes
:27:57. > :28:03.complaining too many turbines have been peppered across the UK, and
:28:03. > :28:10.enough a enough. His Lib Dem boss, Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, slapped
:28:10. > :28:14.him down, he went on to Claire it is "job done" on wind. 100 Tory MPs
:28:14. > :28:18.wrote to David Cameron demanding a cut to subsidies for on shore wind.
:28:18. > :28:20.This close to the expected publication of the energy bill, we
:28:20. > :28:26.believe there are dope disagreements within the Government
:28:26. > :28:30.of getting drafting. Getting those complex details right will be key
:28:30. > :28:35.to getting investment into the British power sector. Not just
:28:35. > :28:39.interrenewables, but wind, gas and nuclear and the whole piece. The
:28:39. > :28:44.difficulty is, that despite getting the detail right, even if the
:28:44. > :28:48.Government gets the detail right, which remains to be seen. This
:28:48. > :28:53.political wrangling over the whole low-carbon agenda, over the best
:28:53. > :28:56.way to meet targets, and over the role for on-shore wind, is
:28:56. > :29:00.undermining the aspirations of the bill. The key thing to understand
:29:00. > :29:03.about MPs and politicians is we're not experts on the environment,
:29:03. > :29:06.we're there to represent our constituents. Our contribution
:29:06. > :29:11.really is to talk about the details. What it feels like in the local
:29:11. > :29:15.area. What the effect there is on the local economy, and how it
:29:15. > :29:18.affects people's homes and lifelyhoods. I think that matters -
:29:18. > :29:24.- livelihoods, and I think that matters, and the Government will
:29:24. > :29:29.listen. The bigger issue to focus on is energy for the next 30-40
:29:29. > :29:36.years. The row over on shore wind could take the focus away from the
:29:36. > :29:43.bigger energy challenge managing a tough reduction in carbon eMiGs and
:29:43. > :29:49.an energy supply we can rely on. Liyuan sits on the energy and
:29:49. > :29:58.climate change Select Committee. And L Ron Hubbard from the Lib Dems.
:29:58. > :30:02.The country -- Mark Hoban, from the Lib Dems.
:30:02. > :30:05.The real point is Ed Davey, has made it clear the Government's
:30:05. > :30:13.commitment is clear. We will make sure that the Government commitment
:30:13. > :30:17.to provide 30% of UK elect trisry from new renewable sources --
:30:17. > :30:24.electricity from renewable sources continues. I'm sure that David
:30:24. > :30:32.Cameron will make sure John Hayes sticks to policy. John Hayes, sorry,
:30:32. > :30:35.Ed Davey disagrees with John Hayes, there will be no more on-shore wind
:30:35. > :30:39.turbine, they are not going to happen. The commitment shared, we
:30:39. > :30:43.will make sure the Conservatives stick to it, is to have the 60%
:30:43. > :30:49.renewable component by 2020. There are a number of ways. As your
:30:49. > :30:53.graphic showed, on-shore wind is by far the cheapest of those. It would
:30:53. > :30:57.seem odd at this time for John Hayes to argue to spend more money
:30:57. > :31:03.than necessary. We need to spend more money on renewables, it will
:31:03. > :31:07.save a lot on gas bills. But on- shore wind has a great place.
:31:07. > :31:10.quite obvious, that there is a deep devise in the coalition for this.
:31:10. > :31:15.The Financial Times on-line has reported they have had to delay a
:31:15. > :31:21.meeting of the Quad, because they can't even agree a policy a week
:31:21. > :31:25.before the energy bill is published. Maybe you will have to give way and
:31:25. > :31:28.say on-shore energy and renewable energy, needs to be ramped up
:31:28. > :31:32.again? What matters here is actually what works. Coalition
:31:32. > :31:37.politics will play out as it will do. I'm more interested in the
:31:37. > :31:41.long-term energy future of my country, and if you look at it, on-
:31:41. > :31:44.shore wind and particularly off- shore wind, isn't a way of
:31:44. > :31:49.guarnteeing energy security in the future. We have obligations, Julian
:31:49. > :31:53.is right, we have obligations with Europe, we have legislation in
:31:53. > :31:58.place with regards to the proportion of renewables in the
:31:58. > :32:03.energy mix. You don't want them to be wind turbine, you don't want on-
:32:03. > :32:06.shore energy to be delivered by turbines? The difficulty is local
:32:06. > :32:11.communities who have the wind farms don't want them. They would be more
:32:11. > :32:15.likely to want them if the figures add up. I'm a scientist and so is
:32:15. > :32:21.Julian, the physics of wind power doesn't add up. You mean the
:32:21. > :32:27.science is underpinning George Osborne's anti-pathy to it? I think
:32:27. > :32:30.the economics is underspinning that anti-pathy. Ultimately we have a
:32:30. > :32:40.challenge with regards to energy in the near future. We have to solve
:32:40. > :32:43.it, in the most cost pective way. George Osborne, -- Cost effective
:32:43. > :32:46.way. George Osborne and Danny Alexander are completely divided on
:32:46. > :32:50.this. What should the electorate make of it? It should make that we
:32:50. > :32:53.are trying very hard to stick to our commitment, and I hope the
:32:53. > :32:59.Conservatives will stick to the things that they said. We will make
:32:59. > :33:03.sure this is the greenest Government ever. I was surprised by
:33:03. > :33:06.the comment by Philip, about the physics of wind not adding up.
:33:07. > :33:11.People around the countries are looking at wind because it is cheap.
:33:11. > :33:17.We have reduced the supsidies to it because it is affordable and worked
:33:17. > :33:22.well. The tragedy is we didn't do more wind power 20 years ago, when
:33:22. > :33:25.the Shetlands were doing it. We could export the technology around
:33:25. > :33:28.the world. It is a huge business growth for the UK, we shouldn't
:33:28. > :33:33.walk away from it. You I do this what will govern this in the end,
:33:33. > :33:41.sadly, one way or the other, will be politics, and not the scientific
:33:41. > :33:45.evidence? Sadly, for my taste, as a former scientist, sadly, not enough
:33:45. > :33:48.scientific evidence is taken account of. But the science it
:33:48. > :33:53.clear, the chief scientific adviser in the Department of Climate change,
:33:53. > :33:56.wrote an excellent book, Sustainable Energy Without Hot Air,
:33:57. > :34:00.it goes through the science and how it adds up. There are lots of ways
:34:00. > :34:03.of providing energy for this country, if you want to do it
:34:03. > :34:08.without on-shore wind it will cost more.
:34:08. > :34:13.If you haven't had text, e-mail or phone call, or all three, to say
:34:13. > :34:18.you are in line for a big PPI payment, then, most probably, lucky
:34:18. > :34:21.you. With at least �12 billion put aside by the banks to compensate
:34:21. > :34:25.customers mis-sold payment protection plans, there is a new
:34:25. > :34:28.growth industry in claims management companies. An associated
:34:28. > :34:31.get-rich-quick and unregulated claims handler. They are the bane
:34:31. > :34:36.of many people's lives. Tonight Newsnight explains how they are
:34:36. > :34:41.doing it. It has been a long day at work, all
:34:41. > :34:45.you want to do kick back in front of the TV. (phone rings) What's
:34:45. > :34:55.this? One calling me. I bet it is one of my close friends calling for
:34:55. > :35:02.a gossip. Autoed voice) Hello, did you know dfrpb (automated voice)
:35:02. > :35:07.Did you know you could be entitled to compensation) No I don't. There
:35:07. > :35:12.are plenty of options to get your money back if you were mis-sold PPI
:35:12. > :35:18.insurance, with the help of the Government and ombudsmen groups.
:35:18. > :35:22.You could use an intermediary firm to apply on the banks on your
:35:22. > :35:28.behalf, claims management companies. They tell you the exact amount that
:35:28. > :35:33.awaits you, you won't have to sign everything. Your verbal agreement
:35:33. > :35:39.to act on your behalf acts as a contract, and business is booming.
:35:39. > :35:43.For years having mis-sold shruerpbs in case you couldn't pay --
:35:43. > :35:47.insurance in case you couldn't pay a loan, the banks have admitted
:35:47. > :35:54.they were wrong and they have agreed to put aside �13 billion to
:35:54. > :35:58.pay out PPI. Almost half has been paid out already already. It
:35:58. > :36:06.created many Companies Acting on customers behalf, and taking 25%
:36:06. > :36:15.cut at least from every successful payout. Averages �100 fees for
:36:15. > :36:20.middle men, -- �11 fees for middle men being -- �1100 fees for middle
:36:20. > :36:23.men being paid out. Consumer groups are worried that there will be
:36:23. > :36:26.victims twice? This business is unnecessary, and adds burden and
:36:26. > :36:30.costs to the general public, who are actually the victims in all of
:36:30. > :36:34.this, and shouldn't have to suffer more than they do already. Here are
:36:34. > :36:39.the three ways a customer can claim money back if they have been mis-
:36:39. > :36:44.sold PPI. The simplest way is by approaching the bank directly and
:36:44. > :36:49.they will investigate and pay out if the claim is legitimate. Next is
:36:49. > :36:54.customers to approach a CMC to act on their behalf, and to the banks
:36:54. > :37:00.taking a fee of a quarter of what the bank pays out. This is where
:37:01. > :37:04.the Spam texts and disembodied calls come in, this is number three.
:37:04. > :37:10.Companies randomly generate mobile phone numbers in Britain, and text
:37:10. > :37:15.or call them prop missing a big pay day. Someone nibbles, that
:37:15. > :37:23.information is sold for around �40 to a more legitimate CMC, who then
:37:23. > :37:27.pursues the claim. Spamers and cold callers are often,
:37:27. > :37:32.but not often district from claims management companies. Spaming us
:37:32. > :37:36.without our consent is illegal. Bombarding us with TV adverts is
:37:36. > :37:41.not. If the claims management companies didn't pay the Spamers
:37:41. > :37:48.for leads containing our information, then the telephonic
:37:48. > :37:53.bombardment wouldn't have turned into the epidemic it has.
:37:53. > :37:57.Hello. Do you know you could be entitled to compensation over mis-
:37:57. > :38:00.sold payment protection insurance. I have had several calls, I'm not
:38:00. > :38:04.interested. Spare a thought for the banks
:38:04. > :38:08.originally mis-sold PPI, they have had to hire thousands of extra
:38:08. > :38:14.staff to process the claims and rebates. Of the claims they get,
:38:14. > :38:18.half come from claims management companies, of that number, 40% are
:38:18. > :38:22.deemed bogus. Long dead customer, duplicate claims, people who never
:38:22. > :38:26.bought PPI in the first place, the banks want to put a full stop on
:38:26. > :38:29.the issue. They are lobbying hard with the FSA, to set a date beyond
:38:29. > :38:32.which there may be no further claims. Don't expect that to happen
:38:32. > :38:39.before 2014. Now the Ministry of Justice is also
:38:39. > :38:43.concerned about this issue, in future, it wants all contracts with
:38:43. > :38:46.CMCs to be in writinger rather that over the phone. That seems --
:38:47. > :38:50.writing rather than the phones. Until then the phone calls and
:38:50. > :38:54.texts will continue, and the profiteering off the back of it.
:38:54. > :38:57.What the hell is wrong with you, I'm not interested in making any
:38:57. > :39:03.claims. How did you even get my number? Never call me again, all
:39:03. > :39:06.right. I'm joined by Jacky Doyle Price a
:39:06. > :39:11.Conservative MP who recently called a debate about claims management
:39:11. > :39:13.company, and Andy Wigmore, from the Claims Standards Council. The trade
:39:13. > :39:19.Association for Claims management companies.
:39:19. > :39:21.Andy Wigmore, 85% of us are getting the calls and texts and on-line
:39:22. > :39:26.stuff, because these guys are he will ising the information to your
:39:26. > :39:33.claims management companies? Yeah, we can put this into some kind of
:39:33. > :39:37.concept, this flood, this tsunami of text messages created by two
:39:37. > :39:42.individuals, and out of the jurisdiction of this country.
:39:42. > :39:47.say, "two" individuals, I would be surprised. Out of what country?
:39:47. > :39:52.have identified where it is coming from, in India. They have this
:39:52. > :39:55.superserver that randomly generates millions of these text messages.
:39:55. > :40:00.doesn't matter, OK that is happening. They are presumably
:40:00. > :40:04.enterprising guys and not stopping. The point is, people are giving
:40:04. > :40:09.information, which you, your members are buying, of course they
:40:09. > :40:12.are going to do it? Absolutely. You have to put it into some context.
:40:12. > :40:16.Why is there an issue relating to this? It is because the banks,
:40:16. > :40:26.remember, they stole �12 billion and the consumer has a right to get
:40:26. > :40:30.that back. It is OK for me to get a text last week which says I'm owed
:40:30. > :40:35.�5,500, and never heard a peep. It is OK for people, elderly, and
:40:35. > :40:39.infirm, it is OK to get that? is random. There is no
:40:39. > :40:44.justification. That is no justification. I agree, these
:40:44. > :40:49.isolated individuals have flooded the market with the Spam text
:40:49. > :40:53.messages. Not claim companies. one last thing at this stage, why
:40:53. > :40:58.on earth do you suggest that your members should feel perfectly
:40:58. > :41:00.legitimate to take information from these people? Because if we look at
:41:00. > :41:04.what happened in the beginning. If the banks had got their act
:41:04. > :41:09.together in the first place, you wouldn't have the issue. Kirsty,
:41:09. > :41:12.people didn't know they had PPI or were entitled to it, that is why
:41:12. > :41:16.you have the business allowing that to happen. Some claims are
:41:16. > :41:19.legitimate and people have had money back? That's right. But the
:41:19. > :41:25.reality is they don't need to use a claims management company to get
:41:26. > :41:30.the refund. The banks have set aside the �12 billion, they call up
:41:30. > :41:33.the bank and ask to put a claim in. The banks are backward rather than
:41:34. > :41:37.coming forward with information? That is true, the regulator was
:41:37. > :41:42.backward in coming forward with the information. We don't want to see
:41:42. > :41:47.that repeated with these company. The ministry -- Companies.
:41:47. > :41:53.Ministry of Justice looked at the regulation of the claims management
:41:53. > :41:57.companies and didn't look at cold calling? This is regulatory, it is
:41:57. > :42:00.regulated by Ofcom and the ICO. We have to match this up they need to
:42:01. > :42:05.look at it. I'm a sure it doesn't feel to all the people getting
:42:05. > :42:08.calls that it is underregulated? certainly doesn't. And it is really
:42:08. > :42:11.becoming epidemic now. We are into that phase where there is still
:42:11. > :42:14.this pot of money, and claims management companies have got the
:42:14. > :42:19.opportunity to make lots of money out of it. They are trying
:42:20. > :42:24.everything. It is cost-free and risk-free for them to do this.
:42:24. > :42:29.Citizens Advice Bureau report cites a number of examples, an 84-year-
:42:29. > :42:33.old woman, with a credit card, was not covered by PPI, but was
:42:33. > :42:39.persuaded to go in with a claims management company, they charged
:42:39. > :42:44.her �359 on a credit card, and she didn't have a PPI. That is wrong,
:42:44. > :42:47.there are regulatory structure for that. There are a small proportion
:42:47. > :42:52.of rogues giving the rest of us a bad name.
:42:52. > :42:55.How do you know it is a small few? Those companies that operate
:42:55. > :42:58.properly follow strict rules. The claims managed regulator has been
:42:58. > :43:01.very effective cleaning up the industry. You can't control the
:43:01. > :43:06.rogues, they are criminal, often, and these people will abuse the
:43:06. > :43:09.consumer. You can say, I represent the claims
:43:09. > :43:14.management council, and no claims management company is going to take
:43:15. > :43:18.information from rogue traders in India? There are issues around it.
:43:18. > :43:23.What is wrong with marketing in this context. Look at the Royal
:43:23. > :43:27.Mail yesterday, they wanted to encourage more mail, the mailbox of
:43:27. > :43:30.the 20th century is your phone, that will increase. The Citizens
:43:30. > :43:32.Advice Bureau says you are out of control? I think that is a very
:43:32. > :43:37.poor report. They have been involved in a lot of the regulatory
:43:37. > :43:41.issues, they have seen a lot of the intelligence. Author of that has
:43:41. > :43:45.been incredibly lazy or had his ear shut. I have to disagree with that.
:43:45. > :43:49.My constituents have been coming into my surgery, giving exactly
:43:49. > :43:54.these sorts of examples. I have a constituent who was cold-called by
:43:54. > :43:58.a claims management company, she asked for the form, and submitted
:43:58. > :44:02.it herself, and saddled with a bill of 30% of her refund. The company
:44:02. > :44:07.did nothing to get her refund. Consumers don't know they have a
:44:07. > :44:13.PPI or are entitle. Most people are on the fishing exercise. If they
:44:13. > :44:17.don't want to use a claims management company they can do it
:44:17. > :44:20.themselves. You are exploiting their lack of knowledge? If a
:44:20. > :44:24.claims management company educates them, what is wrong with that, it
:44:24. > :44:28.is giving the consumer the opportunity to get dedress and give
:44:28. > :44:32.them the money the banks stole from them. How much of your work are you
:44:32. > :44:35.getting through texts and on-line contact? It is a mix of marketing.
:44:35. > :44:40.Most of the regulated claims management companies aren't allowed
:44:40. > :44:43.to cold call, it is a criminal act, and they don't, the Ministry of
:44:43. > :44:46.Justice is very hard coming down on these organisations. There is good
:44:46. > :44:53.and bad companies, unfortunately it is the bad companies that give the
:44:53. > :44:57.rest a bad name. What we need to do is keep the pressure up, Andy
:44:57. > :45:06.represents 100 companies, there are 3,000 in the market. That is a lot
:45:06. > :45:16.to catch up. On the night that Xi Jinping started his rule. Artists
:45:16. > :45:20.
:45:20. > :45:26.in London are recreating Chinese artist, WeiWei, the Gangman style,
:45:26. > :45:36.and it was dis -- banned in China. The floor belongs to the Chinese
:45:36. > :46:03.
:46:03. > :46:06.# Go gangnamstyle # Go gangnamstyle
:46:06. > :46:10.# Woop gangnamstyle Let's lift the gloom, the weekend
:46:10. > :46:12.is brighter. Dreary and cloud through tomorrow. Rain turning up
:46:12. > :46:15.across large parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland. Further south
:46:15. > :46:19.a few brighter breaks, but generally rather cloudy, and
:46:19. > :46:22.showery bursts of rain setting in across parts of Wales. Eventually
:46:22. > :46:27.the north Midlands too. Further south and east, as you can see a
:46:27. > :46:32.lot of dry, although overcast weather A few glimpses of sunshine,
:46:32. > :46:35.perhaps towards the coast of the south-east, most will stay
:46:35. > :46:39.stubbornly overcast. Rain setting in across parts of south-west
:46:39. > :46:46.England and certainly west Wales. As we go into the evening time, it
:46:46. > :46:51.could turn wet inside. -- indeed. In Northern Ireland a soggy end to
:46:51. > :46:54.the day, not warm either, seven or eight degrees, that rain becoming
:46:54. > :46:58.more widespread across Scotland, as we end the day, particularly out
:46:58. > :47:02.west. Rain around as we hit the weekend. Good news is it will clear
:47:02. > :47:06.away during the course of Saturday, brighter but colder, and the
:47:06. > :47:12.showers across Scotland will fall down to low levels. Further south,
:47:12. > :47:15.it will take a wee while for rain to clear. It are do, the sun
:47:15. > :47:17.continuing into Sunday as well. That is good news. This is