:00:14. > :00:19.Who can stop Gaza and Israel descending into a ground war. The
:00:19. > :00:22.world can call for a ceasefire again and again, who holds the
:00:22. > :00:26.cards? As we go on air, peace negotiations are happening, not
:00:26. > :00:31.much goodwill on either side. Israel and Hamas both want it to
:00:31. > :00:35.stop, and it is Egypt that holds a key role in mediating.
:00:35. > :00:42.I will be asking the quartet spokesman, Tony Blair, is there
:00:43. > :00:47.going to be a ceasefire? The Church of England is likely to
:00:47. > :00:50.endorse female bishops, but parishioners can refuse their
:00:50. > :00:54.minutes traigss. What do you think about the idea of
:00:54. > :00:58.women bishops? I don't like it one little bit. I don't think you can
:00:58. > :01:03.alter the word of God, that is what they are doing, in my humble
:01:03. > :01:13.opinion. Equal in the eyes of God, a female bishop discusses with an
:01:13. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:17.Anglican who disapproves of her. # Nobody does it better
:01:17. > :01:21.Britain may not run an empire any more, but apparently when it comes
:01:21. > :01:25.to soft power, nobody does it better. Do the Olympics, James Bond
:01:25. > :01:30.and the Queen, really make us the most influential country in the
:01:30. > :01:38.world? Also tonight?
:01:38. > :01:44.Is it you causing the panic attack. Witchcraft in Waltham stow, the
:01:44. > :01:54.exorcists in Britain treating demonic possession. They can play
:01:54. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :02:02.with us, deceive us and even doctors.
:02:02. > :02:05.Good evening, more than 100 dead in Gaza, three in Israel, as Israel
:02:05. > :02:09.pounds the strip in retaliation for rocket attacks. President Obama
:02:09. > :02:13.called the Israeli Prime Minister and the Egyptian President to
:02:13. > :02:16.discuss deescalating the violence, witnessed so far in the six-day
:02:16. > :02:20.offence. Benjimin Netanyahu, who has put four conditions on the
:02:21. > :02:27.table for a ceasefire, including the promise of international effort
:02:27. > :02:30.to stop Hamas rearming. How does that square with Egypt's proposal
:02:30. > :02:35.for a ceasefire. Mark Urban, is there any sign of a ceasefire
:02:35. > :02:38.tonight? We know there has been discussion with Egypt, and the
:02:38. > :02:41.parties involved. It has been talked up with the Egyptian and
:02:41. > :02:45.Palestinian sources, with the Israelis tending to talk it down.
:02:45. > :02:49.Tonight the inner cabinet in Israel, including all the key decision
:02:49. > :02:53.makers, went into session a couple of hours ago, and is still in
:02:53. > :02:57.session as we week now. They are considering terms coming out of
:02:57. > :03:02.Cairo, and also whether to continue postponing the ground operation
:03:02. > :03:07.they have planned. We know from the similar limited conflicts against
:03:07. > :03:10.Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in 2006, and Gaza in 2009, that once
:03:10. > :03:16.the parties start these things, they find it quite hard to stop
:03:16. > :03:22.them, without some sort of minimum terms. In both those previous cases,
:03:22. > :03:26.without ground fight. In this case, the minimum terms are to do with
:03:26. > :03:29.stopping the arms supplies from Israel, and from Hamas perspective,
:03:29. > :03:33.ending the Israeli blockade, which means getting more access into the
:03:33. > :03:37.Israeli economy. We don't know whether the two sides are prepared
:03:37. > :03:47.to make the necessary conditions in order to achieve that at the moment.
:03:47. > :03:47.
:03:47. > :03:51.While that uncertainty carries on, the bombing goes on too.
:03:51. > :03:59.Today's strikes in Gaza saw more targeting of individuals, as well
:03:59. > :04:03.as rocket sites, leading to scores of casualties. In this attack,
:04:03. > :04:09.Israel killed an Islamic Jihad militia commander, in the same
:04:09. > :04:13.building that was being used by several news organisations.
:04:13. > :04:17.This is escalation, no doubt. But both sides now seem to be searching
:04:17. > :04:27.for a way out. In order for a ceasefire to be stable, I believe
:04:27. > :04:33.it requires a mediated deal, an Egyptian-brokered deal. With a tri-
:04:33. > :04:37.lateral understanding between Israel, Egypt and Hamas, in which
:04:37. > :04:41.all parties' concerns are addressed. For example, Israel is highly
:04:41. > :04:46.concerned about the smuggling of weapons, from Sinai, into Gaza. In
:04:46. > :04:51.order to deal with that, you need an Egyptian commitment to do a
:04:51. > :04:57.serious job along the border. Up to this morning, 860 rockets had
:04:57. > :05:01.been fired at Israel. They say their missile defences knocked down
:05:01. > :05:08.320, and that there has been a fall in the number fired from around 300,
:05:08. > :05:12.during the first two days, to about 180 in the past two days. The cost
:05:12. > :05:16.for the people in Gaza has increased, the death toll there is
:05:16. > :05:22.now over 100, with three people killed in Israel. Hamas insist,
:05:22. > :05:28.though, it is not fighting a war of diminishing returns.
:05:28. > :05:33.TRANSLATION: We are the people of a just cause, we are not the
:05:33. > :05:42.agressors against anyone. This is Palestine, whoever attacks
:05:42. > :05:45.Palestine will be buried. Today Cairo became The Crucible for peace
:05:45. > :05:49.mediation efforts, with the UN Secretary-General flying in, as
:05:49. > :05:54.well as Israeli and Hamas delegations being in town. Egypt
:05:54. > :05:58.has mediated past disputes, but now it has a democratic, Islamist
:05:58. > :06:06.Government, that is much more supportive of Hamas. The position
:06:06. > :06:15.of Egypt is not going to be repeated as Mubarak used to act. We
:06:15. > :06:19.can see that clearly by withdrawing the ambassador from Israel. Ask the
:06:19. > :06:28.ambassador, the Israeli ambassador to leave. That itself is
:06:28. > :06:32.significant. Mr Morsi has clearly said, we are not going to leave
:06:32. > :06:37.Gaza by itself. Facing this aggression.
:06:37. > :06:41.Both sides now want a ceasefire, but equally, they both know that a
:06:41. > :06:45.simple cessation of violence could look too much like a sticking
:06:45. > :06:49.plaster solution, that will come apart when the next flare up
:06:49. > :06:56.happens. So while terms that might be acceptable to the Israelis and
:06:56. > :07:01.Hamas are searched for by mediator, there is the prospect of an Israeli
:07:01. > :07:10.ground operation. That hangs over everybody like a Sword of Damocles.
:07:10. > :07:13.It may follow the lines of 2009's ground push, severing Gaza's main
:07:13. > :07:16.communications route, and halting normal life in much of the strip,
:07:16. > :07:22.as well as producing hundreds of civilian deaths. Its purpose then
:07:22. > :07:27.was essentially to raise the pain level for Hamas. Israeli generals
:07:27. > :07:30.may now be contemplating something bigger. They have called up 80,000
:07:30. > :07:35.reservists, enough for three Armoured Divisions, they could be
:07:35. > :07:39.used to cut the border with Egypt, along the called Philadelphia Road
:07:39. > :07:43.line, as well as sever all communications in the strip. That
:07:43. > :07:47.could produce higher civilian casualties, as well as
:07:47. > :07:53.international outrage. Egypt is better positioned to influence
:07:53. > :07:57.Hamas, because of the close relationship, and that affords
:07:57. > :08:03.Egypt a unique position to broker a ceasefire, which they are trying to
:08:03. > :08:07.do. I hope they will be successful. Tonight, there are reports that
:08:07. > :08:12.agreement may be close. But also that the two sides are still
:08:12. > :08:16.trading rockets for air strikes. One thing is clear, when a halt
:08:16. > :08:23.does come, each side will try to convince its people that the past
:08:23. > :08:26.week's suffering has been worth it. A little earlier, I spoke to the
:08:26. > :08:29.former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who is now the representative of
:08:29. > :08:34.the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and
:08:34. > :08:38.Russia, the called Quartet, on Middle East peace.
:08:39. > :08:44.Tony Blair, first of all, who do you think has got the best chance
:08:44. > :08:48.of brokering this ceasefire? Egypt. There is no real doubt, I think,
:08:48. > :08:51.that the Egyptians are in the best position to try to broker the
:08:51. > :08:55.ceasefire. I know they have been making very strong efforts to do it.
:08:55. > :08:57.It is in their interests to do it. It is actually obviously in the
:08:57. > :09:02.interests of the people in Gaza, because they are suffering, and you
:09:02. > :09:05.know there has been a lot of civilian casualties there in the
:09:05. > :09:08.past 24 hours. In it is in the interests of the people in Israel,
:09:08. > :09:11.there is a million people in the south of Israel who are taking
:09:11. > :09:16.shelter every night, in shelter, the schools are shut, and normal
:09:16. > :09:22.life is impeded. So it is, frankly, in everyone's interests to get this
:09:22. > :09:28.done. But, there are concerns that some of the longer-range weapons,
:09:28. > :09:32.from Gaza, are actually being filtered through from Egypt? Well,
:09:32. > :09:36.there are concerns, and one of the crucial issues is going to be, that
:09:36. > :09:41.even if you get a ceasefire, what will then definitely come on the
:09:42. > :09:46.agenda in order to deal with this, is the question of more weapons and
:09:46. > :09:51.the longer-range weapons coming into Gaza. If Israel feels under
:09:51. > :09:55.attack, then it will defend itself. Likewise, I hope that it is
:09:55. > :09:58.possible, if we could calm the situation, to get to the point
:09:58. > :10:02.where people in Gaza are allowed to live more normal lives. There are
:10:02. > :10:06.two very, very clear objectives, for people in Gaza and people in
:10:06. > :10:09.Israel, that should be secured. The one thing that is for certain is
:10:09. > :10:13.that the longer these hostilities go on, the more innocent people
:10:13. > :10:16.suffer. It is important to try to bring it to an end if we possibly
:10:17. > :10:21.can. If there are weapons coming through from Egypt, is there no
:10:21. > :10:24.pressure. Look, Egypt is getting so much aid from the US, and so much
:10:24. > :10:27.from Europe, otherwise the country would really be in the doldrums s
:10:27. > :10:32.there no pressure we can put on to make sure that this weaponry does
:10:32. > :10:38.not come through from Egypt? Well, there is a lot of pressure going on.
:10:38. > :10:40.But there are many different routes, I'm afraid, of weapons into Gaza.
:10:40. > :10:48.And, to be fair to the Egyptian authorities, it is not always
:10:48. > :10:52.possible for them to act in the way that, in theory, you would think is
:10:52. > :10:56.possible. However, having said that, look, I think one thing is for sure,
:10:56. > :11:02.that if what happens is that you have a ceasefire, but then there is
:11:02. > :11:07.a restocking of armments coming into Gaza, - armourments coming
:11:07. > :11:12.into Gaza, particularly the long- rage missiles and the Fage-5
:11:12. > :11:15.missiles with a range of 75kms. They are essentially from an
:11:15. > :11:21.Iranian origin, if they start coming in, Israel will feel under
:11:21. > :11:27.threat and it will act. Do you agree, the harassment of Israel by
:11:27. > :11:31.weaponry from Gaza is as nothing as to the disproportionate response
:11:31. > :11:36.from Israel, would you suggest it is disproportionate, look there is
:11:36. > :11:41.over 100 dead? It is terrible that you have these civilian casualties
:11:41. > :11:46.in Gaza, but the problem is this, once you start the hostilities, and
:11:46. > :11:49.there are rockets being fired at Israeli towns and villages, and
:11:49. > :11:54.Israel's got the capability through this Iron Dome to knock out about
:11:54. > :11:59.eight out of ten of them, and of course the weaponry is far less
:11:59. > :12:05.sophisticated, then you have Gaza, the Gaza strip is 20-25 miles long,
:12:05. > :12:09.it is a few miles wide, you have 1.75 million people living there.
:12:09. > :12:14.The rockets are fired out of densely civilian areas. The only
:12:14. > :12:18.way, the only way of protecting the civilian population in Gaza is to
:12:18. > :12:21.get the ceasefire. The only way you are going to do this is to stop it
:12:21. > :12:26.and then deal with the long-term issues. And your role, as a
:12:27. > :12:31.spokesman for the Quartet, the Quartet theself is not in favour of
:12:31. > :12:34.talking toam mass, but you, I understand -- to Hamas, but you, I
:12:34. > :12:38.understand, take a different line, that actually it would be good to
:12:38. > :12:42.talk to Hamas? I'm bound by the Quartet principles, and they are
:12:42. > :12:45.very clear, that we don't engage with Hamas, that Hamas can't come
:12:45. > :12:51.into the peace process unless they give up violence and accept the
:12:51. > :12:57.right of Israel to exist. My point is very simple, that it would be
:12:57. > :13:02.sensible if you were able to have all the parties at the table, but
:13:02. > :13:07.you can't really have that situation unless there is an
:13:07. > :13:10.acceptance that it is only through political means and negotiation and
:13:10. > :13:14.peaceful negotiation that you pursue your political objectives.
:13:14. > :13:20.By the way, when, in the Northern Ireland situation, we began the
:13:20. > :13:24.peace process, we did it only after the acceptance of Sinn Fein that
:13:24. > :13:29.purely peaceful means would be used. That's actually the real sticking
:13:29. > :13:35.point here. Look, that's for a later time. But right now what is
:13:35. > :13:40.important, is, as I say, to deescalate the situation, bring
:13:40. > :13:44.some calm and work on stablise it, not just for the short-term, but
:13:44. > :13:47.the long-term. Both the EU and the US have called
:13:47. > :13:52.for ceasefire, what chance would you give a ceasefire in the next 24
:13:52. > :13:56.hours? It is possible. The interests of Egypt, Israel and
:13:56. > :13:59.people in Gaza are aligned, in this sense, that everyone wants to see a
:13:59. > :14:06.cessation of hostilities. On the other hand, the only basis upon
:14:07. > :14:12.which that will come, is that the cessation is genuine, and that
:14:12. > :14:17.these longer-term questions go on the table and can be dealt with. I
:14:17. > :14:20.don't know, quite honestly. I know there are very intensive efforts
:14:20. > :14:23.that are continuing as we speak, I hope something fruitful will come
:14:23. > :14:27.out of it. Thank you very much for joining us.
:14:28. > :14:32.Of course, a small correction, the fourth member of the Quartet is not
:14:32. > :14:38.the UK, it is the UN. If you were a betting person, your
:14:38. > :14:42.money might be on a "yes" vote at the General Synod of the Church of
:14:42. > :14:46.England, when the congregation decides whether or not to accept
:14:46. > :14:51.female bishops. The yes is the outgoing Bishop of Canterbury, but
:14:51. > :14:55.to pass the historic support must receive two thirds of bishops,
:14:55. > :15:05.Clergy and lay members to become law. The battle is intense, even if
:15:05. > :15:06.
:15:06. > :15:14.it allows women bishops, they still won't be quite equal to the men.
:15:14. > :15:19.Holy communion is celebrated at St James's church in Lower Gornal. The
:15:19. > :15:23.incense and rites are High Church and deeply traditional. While women
:15:23. > :15:30.make up most of the congregation, ministering to them is seen as
:15:30. > :15:36.man's work. As for the job of donning a
:15:36. > :15:42.bishop's mither, women need not apply. Mitre, women need not apply.
:15:42. > :15:48.You can't change something the Church of England believes to be,
:15:48. > :15:51.it is part of the holy apost tollic Catholic Church. You would need a
:15:51. > :15:56.council to make it legitimate. there anything about the work of a
:15:56. > :16:00.bishop that a woman couldn't do? think a woman can actually do the
:16:00. > :16:05.functions, but it is the validity of the office, isn't it.
:16:05. > :16:10.A so it is, that those who object to women bishops argue it is not a
:16:10. > :16:15.matter of worldly discrimination, but biblical teaching. Christ, a
:16:15. > :16:19.man, called 12 other men to be his apostles, so we may all be equal
:16:19. > :16:23.before God, but not when it comes to leadership within the Church of
:16:23. > :16:28.England. Afterwards over coffee, the
:16:28. > :16:32.congregation was stirred up by the thought of the synod vote. I was
:16:32. > :16:37.born a traditionalists, no doubt I will die aed traditionalists.
:16:37. > :16:42.think they can do all the pastoral care very well, you know, but it is
:16:42. > :16:46.the sacraments that I like to hang on to, as far as a male is
:16:46. > :16:50.concerned. There is a place in the church for
:16:50. > :16:59.women, I would admit, it is not the priest or the bishop, in my humble
:16:59. > :17:02.opinion. The 12 disciples were chosen, they were men. So, there.
:17:02. > :17:07.You are one of the youngest people in the congregation, what do you
:17:07. > :17:11.think of the idea of women bishops? I don't agree with it. This is my
:17:11. > :17:16.family church, these are my family beliefs, I will stick with my
:17:16. > :17:26.family traditions. This place is found in the sprawl of Birmingham,
:17:26. > :17:33.
:17:33. > :17:36.but falls in the Worcester diocese. One thing that has surprised me,
:17:36. > :17:40.the you get into the English countryside, and it doesn't get
:17:40. > :17:46.more English than here, the more open people are to the idea of
:17:47. > :17:54.women bishops. It is in the towns and cities where most of the
:17:54. > :17:58.opposition lies. That's where the traditional anglo-
:17:58. > :18:06.Catholic Churchs are concentrated. In rural areas like this, the
:18:06. > :18:12.smaller number of parishs tends to make for more mixed congregations.
:18:12. > :18:17.At holy Trinity, a special service is presided over by the Bishop of
:18:17. > :18:20.Worcester, women make up a third of the church's Clergy, tomorrow he
:18:20. > :18:26.will vote for them to become bishops too. The Church of England
:18:26. > :18:30.has been hugely enriched by the women as priests, for over 20 years
:18:30. > :18:34.now. I hope and pray with all my heart that the legislation
:18:35. > :18:37.presently before synod on Tuesday will be passed. Because it will
:18:38. > :18:42.enable us to be enriched by the Ministry of Women, not just as
:18:42. > :18:48.priests, but as bishops. I think that will be of enormous benefit to
:18:48. > :18:54.the church. The move is widely backed, although
:18:54. > :18:58.the make-up of the General Synod means the vote will be close.
:18:58. > :19:02.Rachel hopes one day herself to be ordained, and believes what's
:19:02. > :19:08.written in the Bible is no bar. can go all the way through the
:19:08. > :19:13.Bible and you can find things that will back up reasons why and
:19:13. > :19:16.reasons why not. I think for me you just have to, if you look at some
:19:16. > :19:20.women it is so clear that is the thing they are meant to be. Who are
:19:20. > :19:24.we to say no. For the Reverend Lizzie Ship,
:19:24. > :19:29.admitting women bishops is a matter of moving with the times, and
:19:29. > :19:31.catching up with Anglican Churches in new zee is land, Australia --
:19:31. > :19:35.New Zealand, Australia and the United States. We have been
:19:35. > :19:38.thinking about this, we have been arguing, spliting hairs over it for
:19:39. > :19:44.the last 20 years, the time is right for the church, the time is
:19:44. > :19:49.right for the nation. I think it is a manifest bidding of the Holy
:19:49. > :19:54.Spirit that women should now be ordained as bishops.
:19:54. > :19:59.In Oxford, this is home of the Bishop of Ebbsfleet, one of the
:19:59. > :20:04.called "flying bishops", his job is to however over a vast area of
:20:04. > :20:08.England, from Cornwall to Derby, he then swoops in to support those
:20:08. > :20:12.parishs, like the one we saw at Lower Gornal where they don't
:20:12. > :20:18.accept the authority of a bishop who has ordained women into the
:20:18. > :20:23.priesthood. We see ourselves as part of the team of bishops, part
:20:23. > :20:27.of the episs cop pal ministry of the Church of England, where pirbs
:20:28. > :20:36.like any other bishops, but we do ensure that Clergy, parishs and
:20:36. > :20:39.people of this particular tradition feel cared for, and I think we have
:20:39. > :20:49.succeeded in hold ago lot of people in the Church of England who might
:20:49. > :20:52.otherwise have found it difficult to remain. This accommodation may
:20:52. > :20:57.well have stemmed the flow of Anglicans to the Catholic Church,
:20:57. > :21:01.it will allow them to bypass women bishops too, but it is an unhappy
:21:01. > :21:05.compromise. In order to keep those who are opposed to the legislation
:21:05. > :21:12.you have to curtail women from functioning wholly as bishops.
:21:12. > :21:17.There are some areas where they can't go. Those of us who feel the
:21:17. > :21:22.Christian faith is clear that in Christ there should be neither male
:21:22. > :21:26.for female, there is a part of us think that is not quite right. But
:21:26. > :21:30.we want to value those and keep within the fold those who have
:21:30. > :21:34.difficulties. Parishs around the country will be
:21:34. > :21:39.watching, the next Archbishop of Canterbury hopes the faithful will
:21:39. > :21:46.disagree in love. Another difficult compromise.
:21:46. > :21:49.Having spent the day at at Westminster ahead of the vote, Emma
:21:49. > :21:54.Forward is here, she was the youngest member of the Church of
:21:54. > :21:57.England's governing body for seven years, and has been re-elected
:21:57. > :22:00.recently From New Zealand we are joined by the Right Reverend
:22:00. > :22:06.Victoria Matthews, the first woman to be ordained in the Anglican
:22:06. > :22:14.Communion. Good evening to you both. The first episle to Timothy says "I
:22:14. > :22:17.allow no women to teach or have authority over men, she is to keep
:22:17. > :22:23.silent", Bishop Matthews do you believe that? I think that is part
:22:23. > :22:28.of a scripttural witness. I have huge -- scriptureal witness, I have
:22:28. > :22:38.huge respect for that. Part of that is also that Jesus, the Son of God
:22:38. > :22:41.
:22:41. > :22:45.was born of women, and so you could argue that the first person to
:22:45. > :22:51.celebrate within herself the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ
:22:51. > :22:59.was a woman, the Virgin Mary. I also recognise the very first
:22:59. > :23:04.witness to the resurrection was Mary Magdelene. Scripture should be
:23:04. > :23:14.looked at as a whole, and balanceed with one witness by another. I'm
:23:14. > :23:20.quoting the goes bells, that is a higher authority. -- Gospels, that
:23:20. > :23:27.is a higher authority. My point about what was said about
:23:27. > :23:31.the Virgin Mary, the way God called her was uniquely as a women,
:23:31. > :23:36.something only a woman could do. We should look at scripture as a
:23:36. > :23:42.whole, in his callings of every prophet and person we look at in
:23:42. > :23:45.scriptture, he calls every person as their gender as a man or woman.
:23:45. > :23:47.If the vote goes against you tomorrow, and the women bishops
:23:47. > :23:51.will come into existence in the Church of England very quickly.
:23:51. > :23:56.Does that mean for you that women are equal to men in the eyes of
:23:56. > :24:00.God? The vote tomorrow is very interesting, because I would
:24:00. > :24:04.actually say it is not entirely that if the vote going against me,
:24:04. > :24:08.I feel the vote would go against the church, and future of the
:24:08. > :24:13.church. The legislation that we have in front of us is potentially
:24:13. > :24:16.very problematic, it is not lasting. Let as be clear, if it does go
:24:16. > :24:23.against you, let's take your position in principle and in
:24:23. > :24:32.religion, you would refuse to take communion from Bishop Matthews,
:24:32. > :24:35.wouldn't you? Yes. And you would refuse it take communion from
:24:35. > :24:41.anyone that Bishop Matthews ordained a priest, even if it was a
:24:41. > :24:45.man? I would require the ministration of a male bishop and I
:24:45. > :24:49.and many other people, many or women, many other young men and
:24:49. > :24:57.women would have that same view. Bishop Matthews, what does that
:24:57. > :25:01.make you think when you hear what Emma is saying? I'm a huge
:25:01. > :25:07.respecter of conscience. I'm hearing Emma speak of her
:25:07. > :25:13.conscience, and I respect that. I think that there will be a period
:25:13. > :25:19.of time, as has happened in other provinces of the Anglican Communion,
:25:19. > :25:25.where women in the Episocbate begins to be accepted and lived
:25:25. > :25:30.through. But I'm in my 19th year as a bishop.
:25:30. > :25:35.I have to say, I think I have enabled ministry, and mission, I
:25:35. > :25:42.believe I have proclaimed the gospel, I don't think I have been a
:25:42. > :25:47.barrier. So I actually see and it's not, of course, my vote at all. I'm
:25:47. > :25:54.in another province. I see what is happening in the Church of England
:25:54. > :25:59.as a matter of building a bridge and crossing it. I want to ask you
:25:59. > :26:03.what you feel about the idea of "flying bishops", you don't have
:26:03. > :26:07.these in New Zealand, this will only be in England. There will be
:26:07. > :26:12."flying bishops" who will move in, when people in your position are
:26:12. > :26:18.about to give communion "flying bishops" can come, as it were, and
:26:18. > :26:22.knock you over. What do you feel about that? Well, first of all, one
:26:22. > :26:25.must remember that "flying bishops" are not new in England, they have
:26:25. > :26:32.been there for quite some time. for this purpose? Since the
:26:32. > :26:37.ordination of women as priests. for the stopping bishops? No, no.
:26:37. > :26:43.Secondly, I take exception to the "knock me over"! What I have done
:26:43. > :26:49.in the past, is to respect conscience. So I have, on occasion
:26:49. > :26:55.said, would you care to come and share with me, in the service, so
:26:55. > :27:01.that we are able to more fully minister to the needs of people of
:27:01. > :27:05.a certain persuasion. It is not an arm wrestling, it is not a matter
:27:05. > :27:09.of winners and losers, it is a matter of the body of Christ,
:27:09. > :27:14.serving the body of Christ. I would completely agree with that.
:27:14. > :27:19.You would agree with that, but the problem might be, Emma, is for
:27:19. > :27:23.example, the new Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, is
:27:23. > :27:26.leading the charge for the yes vote. You would be in the position where
:27:27. > :27:30.you would not take communion from your own Archbishop, is that
:27:30. > :27:35.compatible with your life in the church? It wouldn't be the case
:27:35. > :27:38.that I wouldn't take communion from my own Archbishop. But it would be
:27:38. > :27:45.somebody who would happily ordain a woman as a bishop? It doesn't work
:27:45. > :27:48.in that way. I would agree with all of what Bishop Victoria said there
:27:48. > :27:51.there are real positive ways we can work together. It is not the case
:27:52. > :27:55.that we are looking to knock each other over, that we are looking to
:27:55. > :27:58.push each other out of certain areas, we are looking for really
:27:58. > :28:06.constructive ways to work forward. This legislation that we have in
:28:06. > :28:09.front of us, tomorrow, doesn't offer that. That is why a no vote
:28:09. > :28:15.is essential. Have you taken a bet on whether you
:28:15. > :28:18.will get it? You don't bet, sorry. It is impossible to call. And it
:28:18. > :28:25.doesn't work like that. What makes a country great, or gives it
:28:25. > :28:29.potential clout around the world. Once it was military pow res,
:28:29. > :28:33.mineral riches and industrial might, now something else is in play and
:28:33. > :28:38.we do it well, which must be a godsend considering our economic
:28:38. > :28:41.performance. According to a Monocle survey, Britain beats the world in
:28:41. > :28:51."soft power", invaluable when it comes to the exercise of global
:28:51. > :28:55.power and influence. Danny Boyle's Opening Ceremony at
:28:55. > :29:01.the Olympic was a demonstration of all things great and glorious about
:29:01. > :29:06.our nation. The performance, watched by nine million people,
:29:06. > :29:11.contributed to the UK's global influence via soft power. The term
:29:11. > :29:15.was coined more than 20 years ago by an American economist, and
:29:15. > :29:20.relates to the power of persuasion, compared to hard power, which is a
:29:20. > :29:26.nation's economic or military might. The annual global soft power survey
:29:26. > :29:29.by the magazine, Monocle, has ranked nations looking at 50
:29:29. > :29:33.factors based on quality of Government, diplomatic
:29:33. > :29:38.infrastructure, qulure and business appeal. And -- culture, and
:29:38. > :29:42.business appeal. Thanks to the likes of Bradley wig again, 007 and
:29:42. > :29:48.Adele, the UK ranks number one, ahead of the US, Germany, France
:29:48. > :29:52.and Swede. But is soft power an important symbol of our global
:29:52. > :29:58.influence, or is it a consolation prize for a country that no longer
:29:58. > :30:02.has any real clout. And just because we can boast such
:30:02. > :30:07.influence, do we know how to use it to the best of our advantage.
:30:07. > :30:12.The UK won't host another Olympics for a lifetime, and soft power
:30:12. > :30:16.still requires a strong economy. Already snapping at our heels in
:30:16. > :30:26.the soft power ranks are countries like South Korea, Brazil and China.
:30:26. > :30:32.Nations which are not short of a bit of hard power as well.
:30:32. > :30:36.Does Britannia rule the airwaves and not the actually waves. Joining
:30:36. > :30:41.me is Chrystia Freeland, author of Plutocrats.
:30:41. > :30:44.What is the basis of any traditional claim we have to soft
:30:44. > :30:48.power? You started off in talking about this in saying military power
:30:48. > :30:52.is not the game today, it is all about soft power, but actually, I
:30:52. > :30:56.think you could argue that a lot of the soft power that Britain has
:30:56. > :31:01.today you can trace it back directly to Britain's historic
:31:01. > :31:07.military power. Britain has lost its empie, but it left the English
:31:07. > :31:09.lan -- empire, but it left the English language, that is
:31:09. > :31:13.continuously important in the Anglo-Saxon countries. You talked
:31:13. > :31:17.about Germany, France, Swede not being so high up, it is much harder
:31:17. > :31:22.to project speaking in Swedish. Which suggests as the axis of power
:31:22. > :31:26.shifts in the world, that soft power will dissipate, no longer
:31:27. > :31:29.necessarily will English be the dominant language in 50 years, who
:31:29. > :31:34.knows? This will be an and tremenduously interesting balance
:31:34. > :31:43.in shift in the world. English seems pretty thoroughly established
:31:43. > :31:47.as the lingafranka, of the world, there will be more Chinese speaks
:31:47. > :31:52.English than native English speakers in the future. Will they
:31:52. > :31:57.still want London, New York, Los Angeles, to be setting the cultural
:31:57. > :32:04.tone? I don't know. Is soft power, essentially a posh way of saying
:32:04. > :32:09.PR? No, I think it is a lot more than that. I think it is about
:32:09. > :32:10.cultural values, and those cultural values do become political values.
:32:11. > :32:14.It is really interesting that Hillary Clinton, throughout her
:32:14. > :32:20.time as Secretary of State, she started off emphasising something
:32:20. > :32:24.she called "smart power", which was a latest twist on soft power, now
:32:24. > :32:28.she's talking about "economic statecraft", with economic policy
:32:28. > :32:33.being central to foreign policy. The other thing I think is so
:32:33. > :32:38.interesting about this, is how far does it go beyond music, beyond
:32:38. > :32:41.culture? Is it also about politics? When the Chinese go to Africa,
:32:41. > :32:45.something that can be quite appealing for an African dictator
:32:45. > :32:48.is the Chinese say, you can have economic growth, and still be an
:32:48. > :32:51.authoritarian regime. It seems to me, before China wasn't really
:32:51. > :32:55.interested in soft power, they didn't feel they needed it before?
:32:55. > :33:00.The Chinese actually, I think, are really a country to watch when it
:33:00. > :33:04.comes to soft power. They have been quite careful to frame their
:33:04. > :33:08.emergence in world geopolitics as the peaceful rise. They talk about
:33:08. > :33:11.a lot about how they are not interested in projecting military
:33:11. > :33:14.force, much beyond our borders, we just want to grow strong
:33:14. > :33:18.economically. Now as you see that economic expansion in other parts
:33:18. > :33:21.of the world, there is a political message wrapped in there.
:33:21. > :33:26.quickly do people forget the fact that the Queen, sort of, jumped out
:33:26. > :33:30.of the helicopter, and Adele sings, and we had a wonderful Olympics
:33:30. > :33:35.Opening Ceremony, and we had Bradley wig agains, that stuff
:33:35. > :33:39.doesn't -- Wiggins, that stuff doesn't last very long does it?
:33:39. > :33:43.may not. The big question to ask if you are a British person s how does
:33:43. > :33:49.that translate into improving my -- is how does that translate into
:33:49. > :33:53.improving my leave. Swede doesn't have a great soft power, they have
:33:53. > :33:56.a grate Twitter feed if you are interested in soft power. But does
:33:56. > :33:59.Britain's soft power make your life better as a Brit. If this
:33:59. > :34:04.Government wants to continue the idea that Britain holds soft power,
:34:04. > :34:08.what would it be investing in? would be invest anything you Kirsty,
:34:08. > :34:18.in the BBC, it would be investing in British cultural institutions.
:34:18. > :34:19.
:34:20. > :34:24.Thank you very much indeed. Words for evil spirit s, Jin Jardoo,
:34:24. > :34:29.possession, some not so familiar, all things that psychiatrists and
:34:30. > :34:35.the criminal justice system are having to countenance. Research by
:34:35. > :34:41.the University of Warwick are looking at a growing number of
:34:42. > :34:46.people blaming mental illness on possession.
:34:46. > :34:51.We spent ten months exposing why exorcists are teaching serious
:34:51. > :34:59.illness and murd certificate explained away by the presence of -
:34:59. > :35:04.- murder is explained away by the presence of evil spirits. Muddess
:35:04. > :35:09.Khan works for a lettings Europe in Walthamstow in East London. He's in
:35:09. > :35:12.charge of maintaining hundreds of properties. He works flexible hours
:35:12. > :35:16.because he suffers from panic attacks, he has been signed off
:35:16. > :35:22.work in the past and is on anti- depressants. I'm fine when I'm
:35:22. > :35:27.working, if the day before, the night before, I do feel that it is
:35:27. > :35:30.getting a little bit heavy, I wouldn't normally come in.
:35:30. > :35:40.claims medication hasn't worked for him. Instead he says he's possessed
:35:40. > :35:42.
:35:42. > :35:47.by a Jin, a supernatural being. are burning. Who is burning you.
:35:47. > :35:54.Ahhhhhhhh. You're burning. I'm not burning you, who is burning you?
:35:54. > :36:04.Who is burning you? Who is burning you? I'm reading. What I am reading.
:36:04. > :36:05.
:36:05. > :36:09.What I am reading. Yes. You don't believe what I'm reading? Yeeesss.
:36:09. > :36:13.Streeting him is Abu Mohammed, an exorcists who operates from the
:36:13. > :36:20.back room of his home. He's summoning the Jin from inside the
:36:20. > :36:25.man, he speaks to it directly you who is causing him panic attack.
:36:25. > :36:29.Yeah. Is it him to sends him to hospital. What did you do? He's
:36:29. > :36:33.well known, he has a waiting list months long, and charges �60 a
:36:33. > :36:41.session for his services. He claims to remove evil spirits from people,
:36:41. > :36:48.who believe therapysed, by reading passages -- they are possessed, by
:36:48. > :36:51.reading passages from the Koran. The exorcist knows what he does is
:36:51. > :36:55.some what controversial. While we are filming he is constantly
:36:55. > :37:01.filming us, concerned we are going to distort what he is doing here.
:37:01. > :37:06.My body feels battered, that is what it feels like.
:37:06. > :37:09.Even now I feel a bit drowsy, it is slowly wearing off. All that
:37:09. > :37:15.reading. You think you will feel better now
:37:15. > :37:20.for having come here? Perhaps for the rest of the week? It will give
:37:20. > :37:26.me a boost. It will yes, it is like a dose of medicine, innit.
:37:26. > :37:31.There is a magic in this body. These views are not uncommon, among
:37:31. > :37:35.British Asians in the UK, the belief in evil spirits is
:37:35. > :37:40.widespread, that can be concepts like Black Magic, at the more
:37:40. > :37:44.extreme it is the body is possessed, causing physical harm. The concept
:37:44. > :37:50.of Jin is in the Koran, for British Muslim, in particular, there is a
:37:50. > :37:53.theological grounding for their belief. What Jin actually are is
:37:54. > :37:57.not universally agreed upon. Serving these communies are
:37:57. > :38:00.hundreds of spiritual healers across the UK, some charging
:38:00. > :38:07.thousands. In the course of making this film, I have heard evil
:38:07. > :38:11.spirits and Jin blamed for epilepsy, for bipolar disorder, criminal
:38:11. > :38:15.activity, even not getting a job. These called healers can be
:38:15. > :38:22.harmless, even helpful to some, what is concerning academics is
:38:22. > :38:26.when they replace medical care for serious problems. Jins they are
:38:26. > :38:31.very unpredictable. When 20-year- old Nadine, whose name we have
:38:31. > :38:36.changed, became ill, he and his family thought he had a spiritual
:38:36. > :38:40.family, that he was possessed by a Jin. Came downstairs, my dad was
:38:41. > :38:45.there, I said I feel weird, I said the walls look weird, and I can't
:38:45. > :38:50.take it. A haerl was brought in to try to remove the Jin he felt was
:38:50. > :38:54.inside him. When he didn't recover, his family took him to hospital.
:38:54. > :39:01.The psychiatrist came and said what was the matter. He wasn't aware of
:39:01. > :39:04.the Jins, he was shell shocked himself. He's now diagnosed with
:39:04. > :39:10.schizophrenia and takes daily medication.
:39:10. > :39:15.Do you, in any way regret getting medical help sooner? No, I'm glad
:39:15. > :39:19.we went through the spiritual help first.
:39:19. > :39:26.It is cases like this that cause concern for mental health
:39:26. > :39:29.professionals, that, like many, his illness was instantly attributed to
:39:29. > :39:33.possession. This professor has just completed a five-year study about
:39:33. > :39:37.this, funded by the Department of Health. Here he presents his
:39:37. > :39:41.results to a Sikh mental health conference in Birmingham.
:39:41. > :39:46.extreme case I can think of in the last few years, is a Sikh gentleman
:39:46. > :39:51.who became ill when he was 18. But the family sought help within the
:39:51. > :39:55.community faith group. He didn't come to psychiatric intervention
:39:56. > :40:01.for 13 years, we saw him when he was 3 1. By that time a lot of
:40:01. > :40:06.damage is done. Any group of clinicians, working in an inner
:40:06. > :40:12.city area, they will have all seen this, it is an every day experience.
:40:12. > :40:19.It is not necessarily a problem of social class or education. So a lot
:40:19. > :40:25.of people? A lot of people. Don't do this to her. Tell me what is you
:40:25. > :40:27.are plan, what have you been doing? The professor says it is key its
:40:28. > :40:31.patients admit to their religious ceremonies or healing, it can be
:40:31. > :40:35.helpful, as long as it is not an alternative to medical care. What
:40:35. > :40:40.has been found is that for some British Asians it is simply more
:40:40. > :40:50.acceptable to be possessed than mentally ill.
:40:50. > :40:55.To obey him only. To obey him only. I think it is a combination of how
:40:55. > :41:01.cultures make sense for people. How stigma just prevents them from
:41:01. > :41:06.recognises what it really is. Quite often, people see abnormal
:41:06. > :41:16.behaviour as some how being caused by some bad influence, rather than
:41:16. > :41:17.
:41:17. > :41:23.a sign of mental illness. That badness, becomes an external
:41:23. > :41:26.manevolenceA Black Magic by someone, a shadow, a Jin. It is this kind of
:41:26. > :41:33.thinking that means courts are also having to grapple with the son
:41:33. > :41:37.September of possession. -- concept of possession. This is
:41:37. > :41:43.Nyla Muntess on her wedding day, watching her are her brother, just
:41:43. > :41:48.over a month ago, the man she's marrying, along with his parents,
:41:48. > :41:52.and his brother-in-law, were jailed for life for her murder.
:41:52. > :41:58.The trial heard evidence that Nyla was killed as family members
:41:58. > :42:08.attempted to drive out an evil spirit. Again, they said, she was
:42:08. > :42:13.possessed by a Jin. TRANSLATION: The thinking behind
:42:13. > :42:19.her in-laws was that they would basically have the body released,
:42:19. > :42:29.get the body released, take it home to Pakistan, it would be very easy
:42:29. > :42:34.to explain away anything by basically having that capture-all,
:42:34. > :42:39.Jin did it. The called healer in the room it is thought when she was
:42:39. > :42:45.murdered, was never traced. They provide a tough task for
:42:45. > :42:49.prosecutors, under the radar. A few weeks ago, in another case in East
:42:49. > :42:53.London, a religious healer, who beat a woman with a stick, has
:42:53. > :42:56.never been found. There have been two high-profile court cases in
:42:56. > :43:02.Birmingham and London. Both cases, the called healer not traced,
:43:02. > :43:06.nowhere to be seen. Is that a failure? It is a back -- lack of
:43:06. > :43:08.understanding of how these people operate. They operate in the
:43:09. > :43:14.shadows. They are protected by others in their communities, faith
:43:14. > :43:19.or places of worship. They may leave the country. So it is very
:43:19. > :43:22.difficult to track down the "healer". Would you say this is an
:43:22. > :43:25.increasing problem, a problem you are seeing more often? We are
:43:25. > :43:29.becoming more aware of it. Whether it is increasing or not. I'm
:43:29. > :43:33.pleased we have been talking to lots of community groups over the
:43:33. > :43:38.last three or four years, who want to tackle it themselves. You make
:43:38. > :43:41.him sick, all the way from Pakistan you came here. Nobody has accused
:43:41. > :43:44.this man of any wrongdoing, and many have told me they have
:43:44. > :43:49.benefited from his treatment. Although, he says, he can cure many
:43:49. > :43:55.illnesses, he also told me he has had clients he has had to pass on
:43:55. > :44:00.to doctors. We don't want to interfere with the job of doctors,
:44:01. > :44:04.or mid-kal professionals. So everybody -- medical professionals.
:44:04. > :44:08.So everybody does their job. you think some of the problems
:44:08. > :44:13.people might think are psychological are to do with the
:44:13. > :44:19.Jin? Could be psychological problem, but the one behind it is the Jin.
:44:19. > :44:24.Because the Jin can play with us, can deceive us, the Jin can even
:44:24. > :44:28.deceive doctors. You see there is a difficult line
:44:28. > :44:35.there, that if someone believes in this they might not seek the right
:44:35. > :44:43.help? If it is a fairy, how can I explain the, how can I explain the
:44:43. > :44:47.things that I'm going through? Here in East London, the mental
:44:47. > :44:51.Health Trust told me their services were established to serve a
:44:51. > :44:57.community where religion was dying out. Now, most of their patients
:44:57. > :45:01.value the spiritual as much as they do science.
:45:01. > :45:07.It may be 2012, but this is an issue British institutions are
:45:07. > :45:17.struggling with today. That report by Catrin Nye.
:45:17. > :45:40.
:45:41. > :45:50.That's it for tonight, Emily is here tomorrow, until then, good
:45:51. > :46:14.
:46:14. > :46:17.Good evening. We have seen flooding across south-west Scotland today.
:46:17. > :46:20.There is more rain in the forecast for Tuesday. Moving relatively
:46:20. > :46:23.quickly across Scotland, and by the afternoon, things looking a bit
:46:23. > :46:27.dryer and brighter, for England and Wales, we are sticking with a lot
:46:27. > :46:30.of cloud and rain for the afternoon. It is grey, it is quite dull and
:46:30. > :46:36.damp across a good part of Yorkshire and the east Midland. We
:46:36. > :46:41.will see temperatures in London at 13 degrees, we could see some rain
:46:41. > :46:46.by 3.00pm. For south-west England, still a lot of cloud round here,
:46:46. > :46:51.patchy rain with strong wind, especially round the coast. Still
:46:51. > :46:54.cloudy skies across a good part of Wales, further outbreak of rain,
:46:54. > :46:57.strong gale force wind at times. The wind still strong at this stage
:46:57. > :47:01.for Northern Ireland, the heavyist of the rain has cleared through. We
:47:01. > :47:05.will have an afternoon with some bright spells, and a similar story
:47:05. > :47:08.for Scotland, strong winds out towards the North West corner, the
:47:08. > :47:13.worst of the rain at this stage will have clear away. For Tuesday,
:47:13. > :47:17.a slight mixed bag for Edinburgh by the afternoon. Sunny spells and
:47:17. > :47:20.temperatures at 13. By Wednesday in the north mainly dry, fine and
:47:20. > :47:24.bright. On Tuesday, sticking with the rain
:47:24. > :47:28.throughout much of the day. Wednesday, overall, a bit of an