:00:13. > :00:17.Europe is looking very disunited tonight over whether the EU budget
:00:17. > :00:20.should be just over a trillion euros in the next seven years, or a
:00:20. > :00:24.shade less. For specifically, David Cameron is the leader going out on
:00:24. > :00:28.a limb, desperate to bring back a deal that will keep the country and
:00:28. > :00:32.his party happy. Europe held hostage by Britain,
:00:32. > :00:42.screams the papers, but here in Brussels, there appear signs they
:00:42. > :00:44.are about to cough up the randsom. We have guest -- guests who love
:00:44. > :00:48.the European Union and hate it. We will discuss.
:00:48. > :00:53.Tonight the BBC chooses the man from the opera to conduct the
:00:53. > :00:57.mission. Does the BBC's new leading man know what he's getting himself
:00:57. > :01:01.into. REPORTER: Have you been able to offer Lord Hall any security of
:01:01. > :01:06.tenure, some people it is getting like Chelsea around here!
:01:06. > :01:09.Are church and state about to collide, should parliament force
:01:09. > :01:13.the Church of England to have women bishops, we will talk to the
:01:13. > :01:19.politician who is going to try. The world's largest cemetery in
:01:19. > :01:22.Iraq, isn't short of patronss, living or dead, but does the great
:01:22. > :01:32.sectarian divide between Shia and Sunni, threaten more trouble for
:01:32. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:38.Iraq and the Middle East. Good evening. In the manner which makes
:01:38. > :01:41.the European Union a by-word for bold, dynamic leadership, the
:01:41. > :01:46.meetings in Brussels are already running four hours late, supper
:01:46. > :01:50.will start at midnight, and a deal, if there is one, isn't expected
:01:50. > :01:55.until well into the bleary dawn, and maybe another eurofudge will
:01:55. > :01:58.come out of it. David Cameron is caught between the rock, built off
:01:58. > :02:04.European leaders, most of whom want a budget increase, and the hard
:02:04. > :02:08.place, the restless parliament who say they will only accept a cut.
:02:08. > :02:11.Vasily Grossman disappeared into the long dark tunnel of Belgium. In
:02:11. > :02:17.all the excitement about the Diamond Jubilee, we have, perhaps,
:02:17. > :02:24.missed another important 60th anniversary, this year, we are
:02:24. > :02:29."celebrating", if that is the right word, six decades of eurosummits.
:02:29. > :02:32.Much of it hasn't changed, more briefings, more waiting, and more
:02:32. > :02:37.meetings. For journalists, the sheer mental effort of trying to
:02:37. > :02:40.follow what on earth is going on. Still, at least this one is about
:02:40. > :02:45.something everyone can understand, it is about money. Who pays and how
:02:45. > :02:50.much. David Cameron is clear that a rise
:02:50. > :02:53.in the EU's budget is totally unacceptable. No, I'm not happy at
:02:53. > :02:56.all. These are very important negotiations, clearly at a time
:02:56. > :03:01.when we are making difficult decisions at home over public
:03:01. > :03:04.spending t would be quite wrong, it is quite wrong for proposal force
:03:04. > :03:08.this increased extra spending in the EU. We are going to be
:03:09. > :03:13.negotiating very hard for a good deal for Britain's tax-payers and
:03:13. > :03:17.for Europe's tax-payers, and to keep the British rebate. Although
:03:17. > :03:23.some other European countries, lick Germany and Netherlands, who are,
:03:23. > :03:26.like us, net contributor, support calls for a cut, others do not.
:03:26. > :03:31.TRANSLATION: It is a shame for the British Europe is primarily a
:03:31. > :03:35.single market, for me, for Belgium, Europe is more about solidarity and
:03:35. > :03:40.prosperity for all Europeans. So I will plead with some such as David
:03:40. > :03:43.Cameron for a more ambition budget. Is this -- ambitious budget. Is
:03:43. > :03:49.this possible? We will see, I hope other countries such as Italy and
:03:49. > :03:54.France will support us in this ambitious budget.
:03:54. > :03:58.Today is taken up with individual meetings, known in the EU jargon as
:03:58. > :04:01.confessionals, where each country, starting this morning with the UK,
:04:01. > :04:05.makes its case to the EU Commission and council.
:04:05. > :04:10.One by one, the countries go in for their 15-minute budget pitch.
:04:10. > :04:18.So what do we know about the position so far? The commission
:04:19. > :04:23.initially proposed a 1,025 billion euro budget. The council President,
:04:23. > :04:28.Herman Van Rompuy, yesterday amended it to 973 billion, Britain
:04:28. > :04:31.wants a freeze, something like 825 billion. However, let's put those
:04:31. > :04:34.numbers in perspective, if we compare the most anyone is asking
:04:34. > :04:40.Britain to pay, with what David Cameron is saying he's prepared to
:04:40. > :04:43.pay, it probably boils down to something like �00 million per year.
:04:43. > :04:46.Easily affordable in terms of overall Government spending. No,
:04:46. > :04:49.this is really about politics. David Cameron thinks the public
:04:49. > :04:54.have had enough of Europe, and he as under pressure from his party to
:04:54. > :04:58.draw a line. Under the council President's
:04:58. > :05:03.proposal, 309 billion would be spent on cohesion, that includes
:05:03. > :05:06.help for less developed regions of Europe. 5 billion would be spent on
:05:06. > :05:10.outside relation -- 65 billion would be spent on outside relations,
:05:10. > :05:14.including aid and help for countries who want to join. The
:05:14. > :05:20.biggest single item in the proposed budget is agriculture and fisheries,
:05:20. > :05:30.364 billion euros, more than a third of the entire budget.
:05:30. > :05:30.
:05:31. > :05:35.In Britain, big beneficiaries of the budget are big landowners, who,
:05:35. > :05:41.like the Queen, over the last decade she has received �7 million
:05:41. > :05:45.of EU money. EU spending is an easy political target. A report
:05:45. > :05:51.published today says 150,000 euros was spent on a research project for
:05:51. > :05:57.the social relevance of coffee. 58,000 euros for a chilli pepper
:05:57. > :06:04.festival, 196,000 euros for a onadm puppet axe cad me. The budget is
:06:04. > :06:06.subject -- a nomad puppet academy. The budget is subject to a lot of
:06:07. > :06:12.waste. A lot of money goes to landowners, irrespective of what
:06:12. > :06:15.they do with the land, even if they are not in any meaningful economic
:06:15. > :06:19.activity they still get support. Another huge chunk of the budget
:06:19. > :06:24.goes to recycling cash between some of the richer member states, in
:06:24. > :06:28.what is known as regional or structure funds, at a huge
:06:28. > :06:31.administrationive and opportunity cost. So, no, the EU budget is not
:06:32. > :06:35.good value for money. Part of the political positioning before a
:06:35. > :06:40.summit like this, is to bang the table a bit, and threaten to use
:06:40. > :06:43.the veto, David Cameron will know if he vetos an EU budget deal, not
:06:44. > :06:52.only will it not turn off the tap of EU spending, actually Britain
:06:52. > :06:55.could end up paying more. We are used to seeing pictures of
:06:55. > :06:58.budget deadlock in the US, where Congress has the power to shut down
:06:58. > :07:03.the Government. Teachers and civil servants get sacked and everything
:07:03. > :07:06.closes. That is not what happens in Europe. Even if no budget deal is
:07:06. > :07:10.reached. If there isn't a deal in time for this new seven-year
:07:10. > :07:13.programme to come into effect. What they would do is simply roll over
:07:13. > :07:18.the existing budgets. That would be based on next year's figures, that
:07:18. > :07:22.is the end of the currenting budgeting figures, that would leave
:07:22. > :07:26.a higher level of spending than is currently proposed with the
:07:26. > :07:33.proposal on the table. The risk is you block a deal and end up paying
:07:33. > :07:36.more under this rolling programme. And in the meantime we wait, like
:07:36. > :07:43.countless others before, waiting for something to happen, quite what,
:07:43. > :07:47.we don't know yet. But, this can't go on forever, can it? Perhaps
:07:47. > :07:52.David could tell us that. What is the latest David? Well, the latest
:07:52. > :07:56.is, Kirsty, in the last few minutes, they have started their working
:07:56. > :08:01.dinner to negotiate their positions after that extensive day of
:08:01. > :08:08.bilaterals, and Herman Van Rompuy began with a little joke. He said
:08:08. > :08:13.thank goodness owe only have it once every - we only have this once
:08:13. > :08:18.every seven years. Get this for symbolism, there is no din, they
:08:18. > :08:20.are having cold cuts. Tonight I have to say the billing of this
:08:20. > :08:24.summit, 26 against 1 David Cameron isolated. It doesn't feel like that
:08:24. > :08:27.now. There is a lot of movement towards the British position,
:08:27. > :08:31.particularly from the council President, Herman Van Rompuy.
:08:31. > :08:34.Although the deal he proposed was rejected by David Cameron, it is a
:08:34. > :08:39.lot closer to what David Cameron is after. The people looking more
:08:39. > :08:43.isolated are the French. Normally going into a summit like this, the
:08:43. > :08:46.French and germs will meet four or five days prior and they will agree
:08:46. > :08:49.a common position. That hasn't happened now, Francois Hollande is
:08:49. > :08:53.the guy with trouble if he goes back with this deal, because it
:08:54. > :08:57.requires him to take a big cut on that Common Agricultural Policy, he
:08:57. > :09:01.would be in great difficulties if he were to accept that. What
:09:01. > :09:04.happens now? They will digest their cold cuts, they will also digest
:09:04. > :09:07.what Herman Van Rompuy has to say. Most likely they will go back to
:09:08. > :09:11.their hotels tonight, and come back tomorrow to continue negotiations.
:09:11. > :09:14.They might go through the night, but probably they will come back
:09:14. > :09:17.tomorrow. There is nothing else on the agenda for tomorrow. In the
:09:17. > :09:21.meantime, I will leave you with another bit of symbolism. On the
:09:21. > :09:24.screens behind me, just before you came to me, was a Public
:09:24. > :09:33.Information message that seemed to have a bit of Thatcherite symbolism,
:09:33. > :09:37.it said "a handbag has been found"! Not wielded yet.
:09:37. > :09:42.In Berlin, Ralph Brinkhraus is a German MP in the CDU party, and
:09:42. > :09:46.sits in the Bundestag Finance Committee. We're joined by Marta
:09:46. > :09:48.Andreasen a UK Independence Party MEP, she was the first chief
:09:48. > :09:52.accountant of the European Commission. John Peet is the Europe
:09:52. > :09:55.editor of the Economist Magazine, and the Conservative MP, Mark
:09:55. > :09:59.Reckless, tabled a rebel amendment last month, calling for the
:09:59. > :10:03.Government to demand a real-terms cut in the EU budget.
:10:03. > :10:07.Mark Reckless, you wanted a real- terms cut, I don't think you are
:10:07. > :10:10.going to get it? There is a chance we will get it. There is not that
:10:10. > :10:15.much difference between a freeze and a small cut. I think what
:10:15. > :10:19.Europe is now understanding is the strength of feeling in the UK, and
:10:19. > :10:23.our parliament has voted that there will be a cut, and we have to have
:10:23. > :10:28.legislation to implement it. If there is not, then Europe could be
:10:28. > :10:32.operating without a budget. Ralph Brinkhraus, this is all about
:10:32. > :10:36.atmosphere, because countries all over the European Union are having
:10:36. > :10:41.to slash their budgets, EU citizens are facing horrific austerity in
:10:41. > :10:46.some countries, and yet, it just looks like the EU is going merrily
:10:46. > :10:50.on and agreeing to increase its budget, perhaps? Yes, it is a very
:10:50. > :10:54.difficult thing to communicate to the people within Europe. But there
:10:54. > :10:57.are strong particular interests within the countries, so for
:10:57. > :11:03.example in the peripherals, in the south of Europe, and even in the
:11:03. > :11:07.east of Europe, people are talking about subsidies coming from the
:11:07. > :11:12.European Union. We have the agriculture problem in France, and
:11:12. > :11:17.we have this group consisting of Germany, UK and Swede and
:11:17. > :11:21.Nethelands who want to freeze and - - Sweden and Netherlands who want
:11:21. > :11:23.to freeze or cut the budget. If you are sitting in Greece, and facing
:11:24. > :11:30.huge austerity, you don't think the European Union is doing anything
:11:30. > :11:34.for you at all? Yes, I think the European Union is doing a lot for
:11:34. > :11:38.Greece, and there are a lot of funds that Greece does participate
:11:39. > :11:43.in. I guess it is the Government there has a strong interest in a
:11:43. > :11:47.raise of the budget, and not in a cut or a freeze.
:11:47. > :11:51.Why do you think, it may not be the case, David says tonight there
:11:51. > :11:54.seems to be some kind of shift, all too often it looks like Britain
:11:54. > :11:57.doesn't win the arguments? I think there are two reasons why Britain
:11:57. > :12:00.doesn't win the arguments, the most important reason is they are not
:12:01. > :12:04.very good at seeking allies. I'm afraid we have seen this before
:12:04. > :12:09.with David Cameron,s had approach to most summits is to go into
:12:09. > :12:12.summits threaten to go veelt toe things, if you threaten -- veto
:12:12. > :12:15.things. If you threat an veto where you have to agree on things you
:12:15. > :12:19.won't be very popular. Do you think it is because he's not very well
:12:19. > :12:23.versed in Europe, he doesn't quite understand the communication
:12:23. > :12:27.system? He's under pressure, frank lie, from people like Mark Reckless.
:12:27. > :12:32.Is -- frankly, from people like Mark Reckless. His party is saying
:12:32. > :12:35.please go in, and Boris Johnson is saying threaten to veto things. He
:12:35. > :12:42.has a lot of pressure to go in and threaten to veto. In Brussels going
:12:42. > :12:46.in to threaten to veto is not very good for a negotiation that
:12:46. > :12:50.requires an answer at the end of the nigh.
:12:50. > :12:54.Ultimately if David Cameron doesn't veto it, it may be parliament vetos.
:12:54. > :12:58.The rest of the EU needs to understand that this country is fed
:12:58. > :13:01.up to the back teeth of the EU paying all this money in, if they
:13:01. > :13:05.want to us pay anything into it, they have to get with it and make
:13:05. > :13:09.savings. Wielding the veto would be counter-productive in your view?
:13:09. > :13:13.This has to be agreed unoonly by the states and the European
:13:13. > :13:18.Parliament, everyone has a veto in this game. It is not necessarily
:13:19. > :13:22.helpful to start threatening to wield a veto without negotiating.
:13:22. > :13:27.People ask the question why are we part of a system where the budget
:13:27. > :13:30.can only go up, and most people get the money out and it is us that are
:13:30. > :13:33.paying. The difference is small. The budget is relatively small, the
:13:33. > :13:36.difference between the two sides is relatively small. Heads of
:13:36. > :13:39.Government wouldn't argue about this sum of money if they were
:13:39. > :13:46.debating a budget at home. They should realise they are not arguing
:13:46. > :13:50.about a huge amount of money It is about politics and saving face? R.
:13:50. > :13:55.All we hear is great stories about waste in the EU, bizarre stories
:13:55. > :14:02.about disappearing sheep and so forth. But these stories are all at
:14:02. > :14:09.the margins, aren't they. In many ways, the waste is minimal? Kirsty,
:14:09. > :14:14.the waste is very important, because this is tax-payers' money.
:14:14. > :14:18.For the 18th year in a row, the auditors have refused to clear the
:14:18. > :14:22.budget of the European Union, which means they cannot say that actually,
:14:22. > :14:27.the money was given to the right people for the right purpose. This
:14:27. > :14:32.is very serious, you know. This is tax-payers' money. We can't
:14:32. > :14:38.continue to allow the European Commission to give the money out
:14:38. > :14:44.without controlling how it is used. You know, Greece has received 60
:14:44. > :14:48.billion euros in the last decade in structural funds, where has the 60
:14:48. > :14:54.billion gone. Spain has received 130 billion euros in structural
:14:54. > :14:59.funding, where have these funds gone? This is serious. Because now
:14:59. > :15:05.we have a Europe in crisis and ten years ago, the Lisbon strategy was
:15:05. > :15:11.supposed to make Europe the most evolved economy, state-of-the-art,
:15:11. > :15:16.and there we are, in a deep crisis. Of course this waste, or fraud,
:15:16. > :15:19.because there is fraud. It is very important to consider
:15:19. > :15:23.that. Ralph Brinkhraus, Europe constantly talks about, they are
:15:23. > :15:30.going to reform structures and strategy, and it is always for
:15:30. > :15:36.another day, there is no actual real impetuous for reform? No, no.
:15:36. > :15:40.There is an impetuous for reforms. What we have reached in the last
:15:40. > :15:45.two or three years much, so, I guess, even in Greece, we have some
:15:45. > :15:52.progress, and we have a lot of progress in Portugal, in Ireland,
:15:52. > :15:59.but you have to keep in mind it is a system which consists out of
:15:59. > :16:03.compromises. You have 27 partners at the table, and negotiating. So a
:16:03. > :16:08.fast-moving progress in reforms is very difficult. But it needs to
:16:08. > :16:13.reform the CAP. At one point we had Herman Van Rompuy talking about
:16:13. > :16:16.Britain contributing to its own CAP agricultural rebate. That has been
:16:16. > :16:25.withdrawn from the table now. People will see this as the most
:16:25. > :16:29.extraordinary type of accounting? think that's the agriculture
:16:29. > :16:33.question is a very special question. What we have to keep in mind s that
:16:33. > :16:36.we have parts of Europe where people -- is we have parts of
:16:36. > :16:39.Europe that depend on the culture sector. It is a completely
:16:39. > :16:44.different situation to the UK and parts of Germany. So in organising
:16:44. > :16:47.this big compromise, we have also to spend money for this agriculture
:16:47. > :16:51.sector, unfortunately. We have to organise a decline, this will be
:16:51. > :16:56.the task of the summit. Leaving the CAP aside, that is a very central
:16:56. > :17:00.part of this. The bigger question is, at what point does Britain
:17:00. > :17:05.decide the game's a bogey, perhaps it's time to leave? I think most
:17:05. > :17:09.British people are in that position already. If you look at most of the
:17:09. > :17:13.polls, ignoring the "don't knows", it is almost 2-1 who want to leave
:17:13. > :17:17.the EU. Seeing what is happening with the budget, and the waste and
:17:17. > :17:20.disgraceful overspending by the civil servants. One in six of whom
:17:20. > :17:24.are paid, essentially, more than our Prime Minister, when you take
:17:24. > :17:30.into account all their allowances, it can't go on. If there had been
:17:30. > :17:35.proper reform, just seems like this unwieldy monster, that can't be
:17:35. > :17:41.tamed. It has become even more so in the last ten years. If it isn't
:17:41. > :17:43.tame tamed people will turn their backs on it? There is a lot of
:17:43. > :17:46.disillusionment about the European Union, particularly in this country.
:17:46. > :17:49.What they are talking about in Brussels doesn't address the main
:17:49. > :17:52.question. David Cameron wants to defend the rebate, the French want
:17:52. > :17:55.to defend agriculture, the Germans want to hold the whole budget down.
:17:55. > :18:00.I think they have to have a more intelligent discussion about what
:18:00. > :18:02.the budget is for and what it is spent on. It is not a growth-
:18:02. > :18:06.promoting budget, they are not spending enough on research and
:18:07. > :18:10.development. They shouldn't spend as much on ago culture, they need
:18:10. > :18:15.to look at boosting growth in Europe, which they are not doing,
:18:15. > :18:19.that would be a much more sensible use of time. Isn't the problem here,
:18:19. > :18:27.many people are disillusioned with the European Union, in your view,
:18:27. > :18:37.how damaging would it be to Europe, if Britain decided to call it a
:18:37. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:47.day? It would be big damage. We really need Britain within the your
:18:47. > :18:50.-- the European Union, we need, as Germans the UK on our side. We have
:18:50. > :18:54.to organise a compromise. In organising a compromise, it is very
:18:54. > :18:58.bad to have a red line at the beginning of the negotiations. What
:18:58. > :19:01.we expect is that we get an open negotiation, and Angela Merkel will
:19:02. > :19:06.do a lot to build a bridge for Britain, and for France, and for
:19:06. > :19:12.the other countries, and I guess at the end of the day, unfortunately
:19:12. > :19:15.not at the end of today, but of some days in the future, we will
:19:15. > :19:19.have the compromise on the budget. The main question is not the budget,
:19:19. > :19:26.main question is to reorganise the European Union, and for this
:19:26. > :19:32.process, it would be a big damage if the UK leaves.
:19:32. > :19:38.The outsider insider, that is the moniker conferred on the new
:19:38. > :19:42.Director-General, Tony Hall, the cross-bench peer, credited with
:19:42. > :19:45.getting the Royal Opera House back in tune. Tony Hall, the only
:19:45. > :19:49.candidate for the job apparently, began as a news trainee 39 years
:19:49. > :19:56.ago, did time as a Newsnight producer, and was a senior
:19:56. > :20:00.executive when he left for cor vant garden. A "difficult few weeks", he
:20:00. > :20:09.described the organisation's current travails, he said he wanted
:20:09. > :20:19.to lead a world Class B BC. It's a new act in the drama at the
:20:19. > :20:22.
:20:22. > :20:32.BBC. With Baron Patten of Barnes, introducing Baron Hall of Covent
:20:32. > :20:32.
:20:32. > :20:36.Garden, Don Chris and Don Tony. has take an lot to drag me from
:20:36. > :20:41.Covent Garden. It has been a tough few weeks for this organisation, I
:20:41. > :20:45.know we can get through it by listening carefully and thinking
:20:45. > :20:48.carefully about what we do next. I'm absolutely committed to our
:20:48. > :20:51.news operation as an absolute world-beater. Nobody can do this on
:20:51. > :20:56.their own. If you are going to run a creative organisation, you need a
:20:56. > :21:01.team, I know that from my earliest days as a news trainee in this
:21:01. > :21:11.organisation, through to my latter days running the BBC News, through
:21:11. > :21:12.
:21:12. > :21:15.to now at the Royal Opera House. Tony Hall is billed as man who
:21:15. > :21:20.knows his way around a BBC News room, even a brand new one like
:21:20. > :21:25.this. But who also has experience at another high-profile institution,
:21:25. > :21:29.the Royal Opera House. His admirers at the BBC say he's an outsider who
:21:29. > :21:36.used to be an insider. Will Hall be able to stick around long enough
:21:36. > :21:42.for a glorious swan song? REPORTER: Lord Patten, have you
:21:42. > :21:51.been able to offer Lord Hall any security of tenure, some feel it is
:21:51. > :21:54.getting like Chelsea round here? haven't seen myself in Anwar
:21:54. > :21:59.Abramvich role, because my bank balance and his are very different,
:21:59. > :22:06.not least. When you say it is getting like Chelsea round here,
:22:06. > :22:10.how many managers of Chelsea in the Abramavich era, seven, eight, we
:22:10. > :22:20.have had, unfortunately, two Director-Generals in the last nine
:22:20. > :22:24.years. So, it is some way behind Chelsea. I hope that this boss will
:22:24. > :22:29.win a few league titles and European competitions as well.
:22:29. > :22:33.It is less than a fortnight since the BBC was saying a golden goodbye
:22:33. > :22:38.to George Entwistle, after just 54 days in the top job.
:22:38. > :22:41.A new crisis for Newsnight. He was criticised for his handling of a
:22:41. > :22:46.crisis surrounding coverage of child abuse allegations by
:22:46. > :22:50.Newsnight. As you might expect, there is no shortage of advice for
:22:50. > :22:53.the new DG. Obviously he has to set about restoring trust and
:22:54. > :22:59.confidence in the BBC. That particularly applies to the BBC's
:23:00. > :23:02.news output and its current affairs. Already some steps have been taken
:23:02. > :23:06.to more clearly define the responsibilities, and to put in
:23:06. > :23:09.place the editorial safeguards, that is going to be a long process,
:23:09. > :23:14.and Tony Hall, having run the news division, does have the experience
:23:14. > :23:20.perhaps to do that. So what's the score with the new
:23:20. > :23:26.DG? Born in Birkenhead, Tony Hall joined the BBC as a trainee almost
:23:26. > :23:32.40 years a he later launched Radio Five Live, the BBC News channel,
:23:32. > :23:36.and BBC Online. In 199 he applied for the top job but lost out to
:23:36. > :23:41.Greg Dyke, two years later he became chief executive at the Royal
:23:41. > :23:45.Opera House, where he's credited with opening up the art form to a
:23:45. > :23:51.wider audience. When the DG job came up again last year, Hall
:23:51. > :23:55.reportedly said he was too old, make that "experience", a year now
:23:55. > :24:00.he's the top man. If you are thinking the Opera House sounds
:24:00. > :24:10.like a cushy berth, you would be dead wrong, according to our man in
:24:10. > :24:11.
:24:11. > :24:14.the stalls. It could be far from luvvie duvvey back stage. One saw a
:24:14. > :24:17.tranquillisation at the Royal Opera House, externally it was less
:24:17. > :24:20.interesting because internally people were working together. His
:24:20. > :24:24.great gift is to get people around the table and remind them they are
:24:24. > :24:29.a team. If they work together they will achieve more. So it's back to
:24:29. > :24:32.the future for the BBC and the long-serving Hall, in the middle
:24:32. > :24:36.here. Major challenges await. biggest question marks there will
:24:36. > :24:40.be over the level at which the license fee will be set. Whether it
:24:40. > :24:44.is at the current rate, by delivers �3.6 billion a year, and the other
:24:44. > :24:50.big question will be over the governance of the BBC. Whether you
:24:50. > :24:54.really do need a Trust and a chairman, on the one hand, who are
:24:54. > :24:58.apparently the regulator, although it is not utterly clear if they are
:24:58. > :25:03.also the cheerleader. Whether you also then want an executive board,
:25:03. > :25:08.with non-executive boards that sits with the Director-General. Are you
:25:08. > :25:12.staying awake for this, this is positively Baroque this system.
:25:12. > :25:17.Part of the battle in the performing arts is know your lines
:25:17. > :25:21.and don't trip over the furniture. It is a useful lesson that Tony
:25:21. > :25:26.Hall brings from Covent Garden to the upper reaches of the BBC.
:25:26. > :25:28.Our political editor is here. What's the Tony Hall effect in
:25:28. > :25:32.Downing Street? Peace has broken out, across Downing Street, but
:25:32. > :25:37.also the Labour Party. They are quite happy. Some people are
:25:37. > :25:42.concerned at the alarcity of the appointment, but some are saying,
:25:42. > :25:44.get a life. That is the media story, but the Government is much less
:25:45. > :25:49.anxious about what is happening? The story that is racking the best
:25:49. > :25:56.minds in Britain, is how you respond to what we now know is the
:25:56. > :25:59.imminent publication of the Levin report, which is Lord Justice
:25:59. > :26:03.Leveson's inquiry into media standards in this country. David
:26:03. > :26:06.Cameron has sight of it, he knows what where it will end up. He's
:26:06. > :26:10.going up and down the land talking to newspaper editors looking at
:26:10. > :26:15.room for manoeuvre. It is tiny. On the one hand you have the Liberal
:26:15. > :26:18.Democrats and the victims of phone hacking and the Labour Party. And
:26:18. > :26:23.MPs who think it is time to underpin the regulation of the
:26:23. > :26:27.press in law. On the other hand you have incredibly muscular press
:26:27. > :26:31.barons, you have both the Prime Minister's closest allies, Michael
:26:31. > :26:34.Gove, and his closest rival, Boris Johnson, who in the last 24 hours
:26:34. > :26:38.have left David Cameron in no uncertain terms about where they
:26:38. > :26:42.want him to end up, it is a small amount of room for manoeuvre. A few
:26:42. > :26:45.things to leave the viewers with. I don't think it is at all-clear cut,
:26:45. > :26:48.inside Downing Street even over what they will do. The first thing,
:26:48. > :26:53.if it comes to a vote whether they would necessarily lose if David
:26:53. > :26:57.Cameron said I can't that far, I can't put any legal status to this.
:26:57. > :27:00.There will be some Labour people who will fall away from Ed
:27:00. > :27:03.Miliband's leadership and say I'm uncomfortable with that as well. If
:27:03. > :27:06.he did lose in the Commons, how would it be reported when you have
:27:06. > :27:10.many in the press who will say this is massive leadership from David
:27:10. > :27:14.Cameron, rather than a big defeat from him. The last thing is, Lord
:27:14. > :27:17.Leveson has always said, Lord Justice Leveson has always said he
:27:17. > :27:22.doesn't want his report to be another door stop, he doesn't want
:27:22. > :27:25.it to be another irrelevant inquiry, so it isn't beyond the realms of
:27:25. > :27:29.possibility that he comes forward with something that David Cameron
:27:29. > :27:32.can actually implement. The next Archbishop of Canterbury,
:27:32. > :27:36.Justin Welby, is apparently a skilled conflict negotiator. So,
:27:36. > :27:40.when he said today he was confident the Church of England will
:27:40. > :27:43.concecrate a female bishop, was this an opening gambit for fresh
:27:43. > :27:46.debate within the Church of England, or was he referring to the move by
:27:46. > :27:50.MPs to force change on the grounds of sex discrimination. He was
:27:50. > :27:55.speaking on a visit to Nigeria, to promote religious reconciliation,
:27:55. > :28:00.while at home, parliament was being called to arms.
:28:00. > :28:04.Lord hear us. Lord graciously hear us. The decision of the Church of
:28:04. > :28:07.England has become a debate far beyond the church's walls. There is
:28:07. > :28:11.now the very really prospect of Tuesday's vote souring the
:28:11. > :28:17.relationship between church and state. The Labour MP, Frank Field,
:28:17. > :28:23.is determined that the church be striped of its exemption from sex
:28:23. > :28:27.discrimination laws, an exemption in the Eqality Act designed to stop
:28:27. > :28:30.causing offence on the grounds of gender or belief. That would
:28:30. > :28:34.prevent women from becoming bishops. There are signs the Government is
:28:34. > :28:38.losing patience with the church. I'm making it clear this is not an
:28:38. > :28:41.issue that can be parked, it is not an issue that the Church of England
:28:41. > :28:50.can now ignore for the next two or three years, hope it will go away
:28:50. > :28:55.until after the next General Synod elections, it has to be resolved as
:28:55. > :28:59.soon as possible. With us from Liverpool is Frank Field who
:28:59. > :29:03.introduced a bill to end the Church of England's exemption from
:29:03. > :29:12.equality law, a member of the House of layity, who voted on this week's
:29:12. > :29:14.-- House of layy, who voted on this week's proposal on women bishops.
:29:14. > :29:24.Tonight it is the cultural and political terms we are talking
:29:24. > :29:25.
:29:25. > :29:32.about. Why is this any of your business as an MP? We are talking
:29:32. > :29:36.about a church that has been created on the side of the state,
:29:36. > :29:40.and it wants to make sure the church doesn't behave in an absurd
:29:40. > :29:45.manner. Most people will think its actions over the last few days show
:29:45. > :29:50.a real lack of politics in the church. Why did the reformers fail.
:29:50. > :29:55.They have some serious questions to answer here. To satisfy those who
:29:55. > :30:01.were upset and disquieted by the proposal for reform. Let me put
:30:01. > :30:04.this to my other guest. An absurd manner, do you think MPs have a
:30:05. > :30:08.place in this. Afterall the Church of England is the established
:30:08. > :30:11.church there are bishops who sit and make contributions to laws in
:30:11. > :30:14.the House of Lords? It is the established church, that is true.
:30:14. > :30:17.But I think it is really important, isn't it, that the church and the
:30:17. > :30:21.state, reremember they are two different things. It is the
:30:21. > :30:28.established church, not a state church. It is important that the
:30:28. > :30:33.church is able to make its own laws. So, you believe that Frank Field
:30:33. > :30:39.has absolutely no locus in this debate about women bishops? It is
:30:39. > :30:42.important we listen to society, but our God is not parliament. Frank
:30:42. > :30:47.Field. Do you believe this is a special case, as it were, because
:30:48. > :30:52.the Church of England is established church. Afterall, if
:30:52. > :30:56.you were going to make exemptions, presumably other religions would be
:30:56. > :31:01.involved too, once you start to unpick these exemptions, where do
:31:01. > :31:05.you stop? Well, British politics is never like that, and normally you
:31:05. > :31:11.just give a push here and pull there. I agree with Lucy's last
:31:11. > :31:17.comment, that God is not parliament. Nevertheless, the church has
:31:18. > :31:23.certain public functions to carry out. If we look at the, you build
:31:23. > :31:27.this with the new Archbishop of Canterbury. At the moment we choose
:31:27. > :31:31.from half the population in choosing an Archbishop of
:31:31. > :31:35.Canterbury. They were so stacked with talent this time round, that
:31:35. > :31:41.one of the bishops, who had hardly got his robes on, as a bishop, was
:31:41. > :31:47.actually chosen to fulfil that post. So it would suggest, wouldn't it,
:31:47. > :31:50.that events are trying to teach us a lesson here. That it might well
:31:50. > :31:54.be well over time before we actually look to the talents of the
:31:54. > :31:58.other half of the population, when it comes to a leadership role. The
:31:58. > :32:06.crucial question is not bishops or this that or the other, the crucial
:32:06. > :32:08.question was decided decades ago, when the church decided there was
:32:08. > :32:11.no theological objection to concecrating women as priests, that
:32:11. > :32:16.is the key function in the church. Other people may have other
:32:16. > :32:19.responsibilities, such as being Archdeacons or being bishops or
:32:19. > :32:23.Archbishops, the argument that there is something wrong with women
:32:23. > :32:27.taking these roles was decided by the church a long time ago.
:32:27. > :32:32.The argument there is something wrong with women taking the roles
:32:32. > :32:36.of Bishop, puts you out of step with, it seems to me, a lot of
:32:36. > :32:39.opinion outside the church in this country, that you have set
:32:39. > :32:42.yourselves apart, and that will give you a fundamental problem,
:32:42. > :32:47.won't it, in recruiting more women for the church? It is interesting
:32:47. > :32:57.what we just heard. It is true, that back in 1975, General Synod
:32:57. > :32:58.
:32:58. > :33:02.did vote. But at that point 40%. it hasn't gone first? 40% House of
:33:02. > :33:05.Laity voted against that then. We have a similar proportion of the
:33:05. > :33:09.House of Laity saying the same thing now, it is theological
:33:09. > :33:15.conviction. This perhaps is not about theological convictions, what
:33:15. > :33:19.will happen now, if there was a vote, Frank Field brings a bill in,
:33:19. > :33:21.and there is a vote to remove that exemption from you, and you are
:33:21. > :33:26.absolutely forced to have women bishops, what would happen to the
:33:26. > :33:29.church? It would be very, very sad. I think it would be the end of
:33:29. > :33:33.religious freedom in this country, in that sense. We would be starting
:33:33. > :33:37.to say that what we protect very, very clearly within the equalities
:33:37. > :33:42.act, in fact, that religious freedom is very important, we would
:33:42. > :33:48.be some how overruling that. Frank Field, we don't have long, are we
:33:48. > :33:52.on the way to disestablishment? at all, the real, I think, the real
:33:52. > :33:55.issue, Lucy is the reformers were ungracious and ungenerous in
:33:56. > :34:01.meeting the objections that many in your position actually hold. My
:34:01. > :34:07.advice to them, which was ignored such as it was, was that the
:34:07. > :34:11.crucial thing to establish is the principle of women bishops, whether
:34:11. > :34:15.they are curtailed in certain ways, that doesn't really matter. One
:34:15. > :34:18.should actually stuff the teeth of the, the mouths of the opposition
:34:18. > :34:24.with gold, to actually get the major reform through. They failed
:34:24. > :34:28.to do that. I think now the church must very quickly reconvene on this
:34:28. > :34:31.issue, listen very carefully to those that it failed to persuade,
:34:31. > :34:34.and meet them in those objections, and get the general principle
:34:34. > :34:37.established. I think that could be done very quickly. Do you think it
:34:37. > :34:41.can be done? I think that is absolutely right. We are in
:34:41. > :34:46.complete agreement here. Nobody voted against women bishops at the
:34:46. > :34:50.beginning of this week, everyone voted against a particular measure.
:34:50. > :34:54.Next March is ten years since the invasion of Iraq. Since then the
:34:54. > :35:00.country has experienced occupation and years of sectarian violence.
:35:00. > :35:04.The Prime Minister is now a Shia Muslim, after decades of Saddam
:35:04. > :35:08.Hussein's ba'athist party rule of minority Sunnis. The tension
:35:08. > :35:13.between the two groups has not gone away. We have been to Iraq to test
:35:13. > :35:16.attitudes in both communities, to other Middle East conflicts
:35:16. > :35:22.characterised by sectarian division, like Syria, and to report on life
:35:22. > :35:28.itself in Iraq. An unlikely love story, and an
:35:28. > :35:34.unlikely romantic hero. TRANSLATION: I used to drive a cab,
:35:34. > :35:38.I saw her, I drive her to work and home. I felt I had to speak to her.
:35:38. > :35:43.Day after day, I tell her I loved her.
:35:43. > :35:50.At the height of Iraq's civil war, Hassan and Sara defied the world
:35:50. > :35:57.around them to be together. TRANSLATION: Shia, Sunni, whatever,
:35:57. > :36:06.I want this girl, they said she was not my kind, she is Shia. I said,
:36:06. > :36:09.no, either her or no-one. TRANSLATION: One of my sisters
:36:09. > :36:13.called me and said if you don't leave him I won't speak to you, and
:36:13. > :36:23.my husband will leave me, do you accept my children and I will be
:36:23. > :36:23.
:36:23. > :36:27.thrown out of our home. We stayed in the car just crying.
:36:27. > :36:34.Harder times lay ahead, after Sara lost her leg in a bombing two years
:36:34. > :36:38.ago. But still.
:36:38. > :36:43.Tran # We have a crazy love # We have a crazy love
:36:43. > :36:48.In a way, the story of Hassan and Sara is snot just a triumph of love
:36:48. > :36:51.over hate. But of ordinary people against powerful forces around them.
:36:52. > :36:56.A great sectarian divide is taking root in the region. More than ever
:36:56. > :37:00.before, it is affecting the behaviour of states, and the way
:37:00. > :37:07.people think. Most dangerously it looks more and more like a zero sum
:37:07. > :37:11.game, where one side's gain is the other side's loss.
:37:11. > :37:16.This is Fallujah. It is saw some of the worst fighting during the war,
:37:16. > :37:25.and the scars are still visible. It is still unstable, and many here
:37:25. > :37:29.don't feel part of the new Iraq. Curious to see a TV crew, this man
:37:29. > :37:36.asks me what we are doing here. Exploring Iraq's sectarian division,
:37:36. > :37:40.I explain. He assures me it is all gone, no more trouble.
:37:40. > :37:49.If only it were that simple. A lot of trouble seems to be lurking just
:37:49. > :37:55.around the corner. Abu Ahmed is in the free Iraqi army,
:37:55. > :38:01.formed to support the Free Syrian Army.
:38:01. > :38:06.TRANSLATION: We share the same goal, to Shi'ite expansion in the region,
:38:06. > :38:11.to promote it, we support our brothers in certain ways, weapons
:38:12. > :38:17.and fighters. Just like others support the regime.
:38:17. > :38:22.It is in Iraq that he has got scores to settle.
:38:22. > :38:27.TRANSLATION: After the fall of Sayyed Sadr al-Din al-Qu, Iraq will
:38:28. > :38:36.have its turn, today Sadik, tomorrow Nouri al-Maliki, soon God
:38:36. > :38:40.welling, with with the grace of God, they will fall too.
:38:40. > :38:44.If his vision is to come true, it is young men like these who might
:38:44. > :38:49.have to act it out. In history class, these boys learn about
:38:50. > :38:53.struggles to control Iraq, four centuries ago.
:38:53. > :38:59.But in the playground, they just want to have some fun. They were
:38:59. > :39:09.happy to welcome an outsider. To them, there are more important
:39:09. > :39:12.
:39:12. > :39:17.divisions than Sunni and Shia. Barcelona. Barca. Hello, Barca? But
:39:17. > :39:20.they do feel stuck. They only play here in school, and because of the
:39:20. > :39:29.security situation don't often meet kids from other parts of the
:39:29. > :39:33.country. They are not the only ones who feel trapped. Time has taken
:39:33. > :39:37.its told toll on Abu, since the days he was an officer in the
:39:37. > :39:40.former Iraqi army. He has been kept out of work, as the Government
:39:40. > :39:44.sought a clean break with the former regime.
:39:44. > :39:49.TRANSLATION: When you throw me away with all my service to Iraq, and
:39:49. > :39:55.never ask me to come back, or give me my rights, what do you expect?
:39:55. > :40:03.That I will accept? The people who built Iraq, overnight, just gone
:40:03. > :40:07.with the wind, left to beg, we do not beg we are Iraqis with our
:40:07. > :40:13.heads held high. So many like him were shut out as the new Iraq
:40:13. > :40:18.emerge the. But others, long oppressed -- emerged. But others,
:40:18. > :40:23.long oppressed under ba'athist rule, finally found their place. Across
:40:23. > :40:28.Iraq there is a sense of resurgence in Shia pride. Nowhere more so than
:40:28. > :40:34.here in Najaf. Shia clerics look down on you from everywhere, the
:40:34. > :40:40.colours on full display. Suppressed under Saddam, this place brims with
:40:40. > :40:45.new-found confidence. The whole city centres around this, the Imam
:40:45. > :40:53.Ali Shrine, one of the holyist places for Shia Muslims, drawing
:40:53. > :40:57.millions of visitors every year. TRANSLATION: It gave me gooz bumps,
:40:57. > :41:06.a rush of faith and had you mality, like entering one of the gates of
:41:06. > :41:12.heaven. Here Shia show their devotion to
:41:12. > :41:17.Iman Ali, they believe he should have succeeded the prophet. The
:41:17. > :41:21.battle was at the heart of the Sunni Shia divide. Today the
:41:21. > :41:23.fateful look to the clerics for guidance about everything, that
:41:23. > :41:28.gives them a lot of influence. Saddam Hussein feared their power
:41:28. > :41:37.so much that he killed many of them. Now they are on the rise again. And
:41:37. > :41:45.they say it is not a problem. TRANSLATION: Everyone, Christians,
:41:46. > :41:49.Sunni, Shia, won't turn away the cleric leadership because it is
:41:49. > :41:53.above sectarian, the fears are from other practices that could be
:41:53. > :42:00.called sectarian. The clerics in Iran practice leadership in one way,
:42:00. > :42:04.here in Iraq it cannot be the same. Whether or not that calms Sunni
:42:04. > :42:09.fears, out on the streets, Shia fears are simmering too. People
:42:09. > :42:17.hesitate to talk about Iraq's sectarian divide. But they are all
:42:17. > :42:21.fired up about Syria. TRANSLATION: It is a Wahaby war against Shia
:42:21. > :42:28.holy places, this mantles me. TRANSLATION: I will go fight in
:42:28. > :42:33.Syria, this man says, because it is the Shia who are the targets.
:42:33. > :42:39.This isn't just the magnet for the living, but also for the dead. This
:42:39. > :42:43.is the world's largest cemetery. Everyone wants to be buried here in
:42:43. > :42:48.holy soil. For a place of death, it strikes me
:42:48. > :42:51.how full of life it is. This doesn't stop, night and day, every
:42:51. > :42:56.day. The visitors keep coming to bury their dead, and to visit the
:42:56. > :43:01.family dead, from all over the Islamic world, and sometimes beyond,
:43:01. > :43:08.and this huge cemetery keeps on expanding, in all directions.
:43:08. > :43:12.Business is booming for the flower sellers, the motorcycle taxies, and,
:43:12. > :43:17.of course, the undertakers. Abu Saif has been burying people here
:43:17. > :43:21.most of his life. At the height of Iraq's civil war, he would bury
:43:21. > :43:25.hundreds a day. That's over in Iraq, he said, but a
:43:25. > :43:32.nasty wind is blowing from Syria. Lately, he's received bodies from
:43:32. > :43:35.across the border. TRANSLATION: It is my hope this
:43:35. > :43:42.phenomenon will disappear, it divides people T has nothing to do
:43:42. > :43:48.with Islam. I can only recite the word of Iman Ali, "people are
:43:48. > :43:54.either your brothers in religion or your equal in creation".
:43:54. > :43:59.First Iraq, now Syria. Who you are can still get you killed. The grief,
:43:59. > :44:06.too often, only gives way to scavengence.
:44:06. > :44:15.-- scavengence. Vengence. There are places where
:44:15. > :44:20.none of this matters. Here you can't tell who is Sunni or Shia, it
:44:20. > :44:26.is just Iraqis out for some fun. It may be a bit crowded for Sara and
:44:26. > :44:31.Hassan, they prefer their own little spot bit river.
:44:31. > :44:36.-- by the river. TRANSLATION: Iraqis, when we love, if the other
:44:36. > :44:38.person is sincere, we sacrifice for them. Hassan sacrificed, Sara
:44:39. > :44:46.sacrificed, thank God we are unshakeable, nothing can drive us
:44:46. > :44:51.apart. Sectarian war is looming again. It
:44:51. > :44:55.feeds on hatred and division. It tears people apart. Hope comes in
:44:55. > :45:04.the bonds that hold together, and in those who choose a different
:45:04. > :45:14.path. Tomorrow morning's front pages, we
:45:14. > :45:38.
:45:38. > :45:42.That's just about all we have time for tonight. Tonight is
:45:42. > :45:45.thanksgiving in America, which appropriately enough was started by
:45:45. > :45:55.early settlers, who were unhappy with the decisions of the Church of
:45:55. > :46:23.
:46:23. > :46:27.With that, I think we are going to There is still some atrocious
:46:27. > :46:30.weather out and about across England and Wales, heavy showers
:46:30. > :46:34.following behind the flood line number.
:46:34. > :46:37.Even after the rain ease, the rain will filter into the river systems.
:46:37. > :46:41.Some very nasty weather to come. Soggy across the south-east first
:46:41. > :46:45.thing in the morning as well. But, for many much dryer, the winds will
:46:45. > :46:49.have eased significant loo, after pretty wet and windy nights across
:46:49. > :46:52.the south-east. It will take a while for that rain to drag its
:46:52. > :46:56.heels, behind it there are showers around, it is not all together dry.
:46:56. > :47:00.But it will be a lot dryer than it has been today across the south
:47:00. > :47:03.west of England, across the Midland, Wales and northern England. It will
:47:03. > :47:07.be a pestering of showers, particularly across the likes of
:47:07. > :47:10.Northern Ireland, there could be some hail, thunder there, across
:47:11. > :47:14.the Scottish Highlands some snow as well. A keen breeze, again dryer,
:47:14. > :47:19.than it has been through the day today. Especially where those areas
:47:19. > :47:25.are flooded. Do keep tuned to the forecast if you are at all
:47:25. > :47:31.concerned. Still some atro sure weather out. It is only a brief --
:47:32. > :47:35.atrocious weather around. It is only a brief dry spell, it is more
:47:35. > :47:39.again on the weekend. Raint on Sunday, or Saturday night, more
:47:39. > :47:41.very wet and windy weather is due across the southern half of the