:00:12. > :00:15.As Lord Leveson is about to deliver his verdict on the state of the
:00:15. > :00:18.press, senior politicians, campaign groups and celebrities are piling
:00:18. > :00:22.on the pressure to get their way. What about the powerless? If you
:00:22. > :00:27.are not part of the establishment, will Lord Leveson still be on your
:00:27. > :00:32.side? The father of a 7/7 victim caught
:00:32. > :00:36.up in hacking, thinks not. You can see it is all part of the old boy
:00:36. > :00:39.network and the same establishment. I haven't seen any part of the
:00:39. > :00:44.Leveson Inquiry to which I can feel, as a member of the public,
:00:44. > :00:47.affiliated with. The charge is eliteism, is it true?
:00:47. > :00:52.Brussels tonight, full of sound and fury, but signifying no change at
:00:52. > :00:57.all. Who is there to stand up for the taxpayer, who is to say,
:00:57. > :01:02.where's the money going to come from, who will pay for this? Anger
:01:02. > :01:12.in Egypt, as their newly-elected President make as power grab, is he
:01:12. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:17.is securing democracy or destroying Good evening, when David Cameron
:01:17. > :01:20.announced the Leveson Inquiry, he said it would look into not only
:01:20. > :01:25.how newspapers are regulated, but also at the relationships between
:01:25. > :01:29.politicians and the press. Has the intervening 12 months revealed more
:01:29. > :01:31.about Britain's power elites than could ever have been imagined. Who
:01:31. > :01:34.knew, for instance, that the Prime Minister and Rebekah Brooks had
:01:34. > :01:39.such a close relationship. Are the fault lines developing over
:01:39. > :01:42.statutory regulation, in the best interests of celebrities or every
:01:42. > :01:46.day folks. First tonight, we hare the testimony of the father of one
:01:46. > :01:55.of those who died in the London someings, and himself a suspected
:01:55. > :02:01.victim of phone hacking. David Foulkes was 24 years old when
:02:01. > :02:06.he was killed on the 7th July, in Edgware Road, it was his first time
:02:06. > :02:10.in London on his own. My wife came home, we spent the next 36, 48
:02:10. > :02:16.hours trying to get some kind of answer. We got no response, nobody
:02:16. > :02:20.knew what was going on, we couldn't get touch with David, we had mobile
:02:20. > :02:26.phones, two landlines at home, David had two phones, we tried
:02:26. > :02:31.every number and combination of numbers and we called for
:02:31. > :02:33.everything and got nowhere. would be six days before David's
:02:34. > :02:37.parents finally learned he was dead. It would be six more years before
:02:37. > :02:40.they discovered from the police that their phones might have been
:02:40. > :02:45.hacked by the News of the World. was a senior police officer and he
:02:45. > :02:49.started discussing with me Operation Weeting, it meant to go
:02:49. > :02:56.to me, I asked him when did he know that my private details were in the
:02:56. > :03:00.possession of News International. He said, for some years now. He had
:03:00. > :03:05.only contacted me, and other members, simply because it was
:03:05. > :03:11.about to be put in the public domain in the Daily Telegraph, I
:03:11. > :03:16.think it was, the next day. When Brian Leveson was first appointed
:03:17. > :03:21.to lead the hacking inquiry, there was hope that the inquiry would be
:03:21. > :03:27.about the damage done to ordinary families. Despite the 100 witnesses
:03:27. > :03:30.from many organisations, the inquiry hasn't turned out how he
:03:30. > :03:34.has wanted. I thought for once something to do with the public
:03:34. > :03:37.would be addressed. There was some interest in the 7/7 people again, I
:03:37. > :03:44.didn't want to get involved with that. And yet the families of the
:03:44. > :03:48.victims were the ones that one of the biggest grievances? Exactly. I
:03:48. > :03:54.feel quite upset that an important piece of work for ordinary people,
:03:54. > :04:00.for ordinary members of the public, was railroaded by the celebrity
:04:00. > :04:04.circus. And also, it became apparent, very quickly, that the
:04:04. > :04:08.politicians would quite like to get a grip on the media as well, and
:04:08. > :04:14.the politicians are clearly using Leveson as a vehicle to get their
:04:14. > :04:18.own way. But what about the Government, speaking to the
:04:18. > :04:25.Government about what happened? Only ten days or so ago, it was
:04:25. > :04:28.reported in the press, that Maria Miller, the minister, DCMS, had
:04:28. > :04:34.face-to-face meetings with Hugh Grant, and the press reported she
:04:34. > :04:37.was minded to go along with much of his thoughts and suggestions. I e-
:04:37. > :04:41.mailed Maria Miller, explaining who I was, and my points of view, and I
:04:41. > :04:45.didn't even get a reply from the minister. I got a reply from one of
:04:45. > :04:49.her aides, saying it would be inappropriate for a minister to
:04:49. > :04:53.comment as the report had not yet been publicised. Which, I just
:04:53. > :04:57.think illustrated my point precisely. That the Leveson Inquiry
:04:57. > :05:00.has been hijacked, if you are rich and famous and a celebrity, you
:05:00. > :05:03.have immediate access to ministers, but if you are an ordinary member
:05:03. > :05:07.of the public, a ministerial aide sends you an e-mail.
:05:07. > :05:11.What do you want to come out of the Leveson Inquiry. You seem to be
:05:11. > :05:15.suggesting that you think it is a stitch-up for politicians to put
:05:15. > :05:19.their dabs on the media? I think stitch-up might be a bit strong.
:05:19. > :05:23.But certainly they have seen it as an opportunity to maybe get hold of
:05:23. > :05:29.the media and try to shape it in a way that suits them. That would be
:05:29. > :05:32.a dreadful outcome. That would be like going back to Stalinism, and
:05:32. > :05:38.China and North Korea. The great strength of this country is we do
:05:38. > :05:42.have a free press. We have in place, currently, enough laws to deal with
:05:42. > :05:50.the activities we are talking about. We don't need any more legislation.
:05:50. > :05:54.We just need a regulation, or a body that is able to control when
:05:54. > :05:58.they cross the line, from a morality point of view. Do you
:05:58. > :06:01.think that the way that Leveson has been conducted, and your experience
:06:01. > :06:09.of Leveson, tells you anything about the establishment? Well, I
:06:09. > :06:14.think that the establishment have quickly taken control of Leveson.
:06:14. > :06:18.If you look at the team that are supporting Leveson, you can see,
:06:18. > :06:22.that it's all part of the same old boy network, and the name
:06:22. > :06:27.establishment. I have not seen any part of the Leveson Inquiry to
:06:27. > :06:31.which I can feel, as a member of the public, affiliated with, and
:06:31. > :06:38.think that's to help me, as a member of the public, that is to
:06:38. > :06:43.help me. All I have seen is various lobby groups take over the Leveson
:06:43. > :06:47.Inquiry. Trying to shape it to suit them. If you were to be sitting in
:06:47. > :06:54.front of Brian Leveson right now, what would you say to him? I would
:06:54. > :07:01.be saying to him that I hope he has not been derailed. That he has been
:07:01. > :07:06.able to cut through all the smoke screen and keep the inquiry on
:07:06. > :07:11.track. I would like to think that he would recommend a course of
:07:11. > :07:16.action that is the right and proper thing to do. Which avoids
:07:16. > :07:22.parliament, in any way, taking over or having control of the media.
:07:22. > :07:27.Thank you very much indeed. I'm joined now by Simon Jenkins,
:07:27. > :07:33.columnist for the Guardian, and two people who have had their phones
:07:33. > :07:38.hacked, the publicist, Max Clifford and Joan Smith.
:07:38. > :07:42.Do you recognise Graham Foulkes's characterisation of Leveson as
:07:42. > :07:45.being hijacked by celebrity? didn't need to be hijacked, he was
:07:45. > :07:51.obsessed with celebrity. I don't think it is fair to imply,
:07:51. > :07:54.therefore, he's going to give an establishment stitch-up, it was an
:07:54. > :07:57.ill-judged commission of inquiry, it was way over the top. The whole
:07:57. > :08:02.reference to phone hacking, in your own report, this is a crime.
:08:02. > :08:07.Leveson is not looking into that crime. He's not got any remit to
:08:07. > :08:10.look into the crime, maybe on a future date. This was a crime that
:08:10. > :08:13.has been committed and being dealt with by the police. The Leveson
:08:13. > :08:16.Inquiry is about the ethics of the press, that is a different matter.
:08:16. > :08:22.The ethic of the press, as Graham was saying, he wants some new body
:08:22. > :08:27.to govern the ethic of the press. You he couldn't say what it was, I
:08:27. > :08:31.don't know what it is going to be. I'm doubtful this characterising
:08:31. > :08:35.Leveson as an establishment stitch- up is the correct way to do it.
:08:36. > :08:40.Before we talk about establishment, does he have a point, from where he
:08:40. > :08:45.sits, it has been dominated by celebrities who have had their
:08:45. > :08:50.phones hacked, and in a sense that the media itself latches on to that,
:08:50. > :08:54.and that is what it has been characterised by? I'm not wealthy
:08:54. > :08:59.or a celebrity, in the last week I have met David Cameron, Ed Miliband
:08:59. > :09:02.and Nick Clegg, to discuss phone hacking, and all of that. And the
:09:02. > :09:06.people. You are a columnist for a national newspaper, you have
:09:06. > :09:09.profile? The rest of the people in the room for me were people whose
:09:09. > :09:11.relatives had disappeared or murdered, you might have recognised
:09:11. > :09:15.their names, not because they are celebrities, but they are people
:09:15. > :09:18.who terrible things have happened to. What were you talking about in
:09:18. > :09:22.the room? We were talking about, what we as victims of phone hacking,
:09:22. > :09:24.would like to see come out of the Leveson Inquiry, and seeking
:09:24. > :09:26.assurances from all three party leaders that they were still
:09:26. > :09:29.committed to the Leveson process. It is interesting that you didn't
:09:29. > :09:34.think that meeting with Leveson would have been a good idea. Maybe
:09:34. > :09:38.that is simply not allowed? For the victims? To put your point of view
:09:38. > :09:41.at this stage in the inquiry? of us have already given evidence.
:09:41. > :09:44.I gave evidence on the first day of the inquiry, when it was taking
:09:44. > :09:50.evidence. I must say, that having been involved in the whole thing
:09:50. > :09:53.for a year as a core participant victim, I have met far, far more
:09:53. > :09:56.people who were ordinary members of the public who had terrible things
:09:56. > :10:00.happen to them than I have celebrities. What I think happens
:10:00. > :10:07.is when news organisations ring up the victims' organisations they ask
:10:07. > :10:13.for Hugh Grant, that may skew the impression of what the victims'
:10:13. > :10:16.organisation is. This is very much Graham Foulkes's own experience
:10:16. > :10:22.with it, do you have sympathy with how he views Leveson? I think the
:10:22. > :10:26.most important thing, as far as I'm concerned, is hopefully the public
:10:26. > :10:30.will get better protection. Stars, the rich and famous, have tonnes of
:10:30. > :10:34.protection. I know, because in many ways I'm part of it, and have been
:10:34. > :10:37.for 50 years. The rich and famous are well looked after, they have
:10:37. > :10:40.got expensive lawyers and PR people, often giving them more protection
:10:40. > :10:44.than they deserve. Ordinary members of the public don't have. And
:10:44. > :10:50.that's one thing I hope will come out of the Leveson Inquiry. We must
:10:50. > :10:54.have a free press, but you must have members of the public
:10:54. > :10:58.protected when their privacy is being invaded, with no
:10:58. > :11:01.justification. Do you think it does show, not necessarily that the
:11:01. > :11:04.prevalence of an establishment, but a number of elites. For example,
:11:04. > :11:08.you would hope that the newspapers would hold politicians to account,
:11:08. > :11:12.but you feel that, in a sense, newspapers have been so embroiled
:11:12. > :11:16.in this, that they don't have an independence from politicians?
:11:16. > :11:21.think it is wrong to frame this as an attack on freem do of the press.
:11:21. > :11:27.What it is, it is an exposure of abuse of power. I don't he see how
:11:27. > :11:32.newspapers, and editors, can hold politicians to account if we are
:11:32. > :11:36.meeting. I have no problem with them being lobbied by editors, and
:11:36. > :11:39.public meetings that are publicly recorded. What Leveson has exposed
:11:39. > :11:44.is a level of private meetings, subterranean contact, that the rest
:11:44. > :11:48.of us didn't know about. That is very worrying. There is a very
:11:49. > :11:53.narrow group, between the newspaper press, the broadcasters, the
:11:53. > :11:56.politicians, they go round in a merry-go-round? What is interesting
:11:57. > :11:59.about Leveson, he has revealed some of the things that go on. That is
:11:59. > :12:06.interesting. Every now and then it is interesting to have a great
:12:06. > :12:09.turning over of stones and you see all the little bugs running around
:12:09. > :12:12.underneath the stones. That has been significant, and interesting,
:12:12. > :12:15.it is important you do that. Whether at the end of the day you
:12:15. > :12:19.can invent some new system that prevents that happening, or reveals
:12:19. > :12:24.it to the public or makes a difference, I very much doubt.
:12:24. > :12:27.someone, like people whose families were the victims of 7/7, and they
:12:27. > :12:31.look at where the power lies, it would be fair to say that the power
:12:31. > :12:35.lies often between the press and the politicians, and even the
:12:35. > :12:40.judiciary. That is the narrow area in Britain where power resides?
:12:40. > :12:45.reality of it is, of course, it is not just politicians who have a
:12:45. > :12:48.close relationship, because they need to, with Fleet Street, so do
:12:48. > :12:51.the proprietors of newspapers have a close relationship with the press,
:12:51. > :12:55.and politicians, because they all want to have maximum influence.
:12:55. > :12:59.It's just a question of trying to make it as open as possible so we
:12:59. > :13:05.can all see and hear what is going Going back to the point that Graham
:13:05. > :13:11.was making. I think there is a real question about how what might be
:13:11. > :13:14.called "ordinary people", famous for a day, might get some redress
:13:15. > :13:18.when they feel hard done by. The Press Complaints Commission was set
:13:18. > :13:22.up to do that. In those cases the press complaints commission hasn't
:13:22. > :13:26.done a bad job. The crime is a different matter. But redress is
:13:26. > :13:32.there, it needs to be tightened up and tweaked, but it is feasible.
:13:32. > :13:36.Here you have an all-singing, all- dancing inquiry that takes a year.
:13:36. > :13:41.You have Lord Leveson who doesn't want the report to Laing qirb on
:13:41. > :13:44.the shelf. He presents his report to parliament, and the politicians,
:13:44. > :13:51.who are implicated, make the decision. You describe the real
:13:51. > :13:58.world. The point is, he may, he may say that actually we should have
:13:58. > :14:03.some, what Joan wants, satry? don't want that, I want --
:14:03. > :14:07.statutory? I don't want that I want independent. But he has a whole
:14:07. > :14:10.pile of people saying they don't want that? Would I rather the Prime
:14:10. > :14:13.Minister and the cabinet take a decision than a judge. I would
:14:13. > :14:17.rather the Prime Minister and the cabinet. What is the point of the
:14:17. > :14:21.inquiry, there will be a second judgment? To reveal things, conduct
:14:21. > :14:25.a public debate, which is done. To turn over stones. Judges shouldn't
:14:25. > :14:28.make law. You say to turn over stones, if those stones are going
:14:28. > :14:31.to be turned back again, what is the point? That is why I don't
:14:31. > :14:36.think this is going top had a. I don't think that Lord Justice
:14:36. > :14:41.Leveson wants to be another Calcott. The last commission to the press?
:14:41. > :14:45.That was 20 years ago and Simon was part of that. All we have had for
:14:45. > :14:51.the last 20 years self-regulation. The question is not self-or state
:14:51. > :14:53.regulation, it is independent -- self-or-state regulation, it is
:14:53. > :14:57.independent regulation. You have to have a strong press complaints body
:14:57. > :15:00.that is prepared to stand up for ordinary people. Ordinary people
:15:00. > :15:03.know of its existence and they will help them. That hasn't happened in
:15:03. > :15:07.the past. Unlike some, I think the press complaints commission has
:15:07. > :15:11.been dreadful for ordinary people, for the last 20, 30 years, so many
:15:12. > :15:19.people have come to me, as well as other people, and saying the press
:15:19. > :15:22.complaints don't want to know. Many, many people, and they weren't
:15:22. > :15:26.interested. At the moment do you think Brian Leveson will be feeling
:15:27. > :15:33.the pressure? He's a tough guy. He's run that inquiry as he wanted
:15:33. > :15:36.to run it. I think he became star struck by it. That in itself was
:15:36. > :15:41.quite useful, it has raised the profile of it all. If you ask me at
:15:41. > :15:44.the end of the day if there will be a lot of difference, I don't think
:15:44. > :15:48.there is. The thing is to meet the point to ensure you have a
:15:48. > :15:52.plausible regime, that people have faith in. They won't have faith in
:15:52. > :15:56.it if the press run it themselves. That is the problem. Jo all wait
:15:56. > :15:59.through it has been about power -- All the way through it has been
:15:59. > :16:03.about power, it is how you give power to ordinary people. And
:16:03. > :16:07.Leveson wants to make sure there is an independent regulator where the
:16:07. > :16:10.editors aren't judging themselves and others, and a statutory
:16:10. > :16:14.backdrop so nobody can opt out of the situation. What is interesting,
:16:14. > :16:21.is as soon as he brings his report out, he's going to Australia, where
:16:21. > :16:27.the media is totally controlled by Rupert Murdoch! Maybe it was
:16:27. > :16:31.indigestion eating a meal of cold cut late at night, or too much rich
:16:31. > :16:38.Belgian chocolate. 27 European leaders, in the end, agreed to
:16:38. > :16:42.nothing. The EU budget is running out with a 2% added on at the table.
:16:42. > :16:46.There is a raft of other EU- designed policies coming down the
:16:46. > :16:50.track, most greeted like a cup of warm sick by David Cameron and his
:16:50. > :17:00.Conservative colleagues. So is this only the beginning of saying no to
:17:00. > :17:07.
:17:07. > :17:11.Europe? Vasily Grossman witnessed If only it were as simple as
:17:11. > :17:15.tossing a few coins in a hat, they could agree the EU budget and be
:17:15. > :17:22.home in time for tea. This is not just a battle about cash. It is
:17:22. > :17:27.also about political capital. We're not going to be tough on
:17:27. > :17:31.budgets at home, just to come here and sign up to big increases in
:17:31. > :17:36.European spending. From a budget of nearly a trillion euros, it is
:17:36. > :17:41.simplely not acceptable to carry on tinkering around the edges,
:17:41. > :17:44.shuffling chunks of money from one part of the budget to another, we
:17:44. > :17:47.need to cut unaffordable spending. That is what is happening at home,
:17:47. > :17:51.and it needs to happen here. This is more than just a row about the
:17:51. > :17:56.budget, it should be seen as part of a wider conflict between
:17:56. > :17:59.competing visions for how the EU should evolve. If you want a
:17:59. > :18:03.concrete example of how the EU institutions themselves think they
:18:03. > :18:08.should go, you only have to travel next door from the summit venue.
:18:08. > :18:13.A short walk away is evidence that far from being an institution in
:18:13. > :18:20.retreat, the EU wants to do more, it wants a deeper, comprehensive
:18:20. > :18:25.union. It's called the Europa Building,
:18:25. > :18:28.and it is costing over a billion euros with its central pod-like
:18:28. > :18:31.thing. When it is finished it will be the home of the European Council,
:18:31. > :18:37.and Herman Van Rompuy. The question is, how much will Britain be
:18:37. > :18:41.involved in what goes on there? whole idea of not to have the a la
:18:41. > :18:44.carte, not to do the "cherrypick"ing, and take what you
:18:44. > :18:50.like and don't contribute to the rest of it. It is like being a
:18:50. > :18:54.member of any club, you take the week with the sour. It increasingly
:18:54. > :18:59.looks like "cherrypick"ing. does that go down here? Not very
:18:59. > :19:02.well. The UK has signalled it intends to exercise its opt-out
:19:02. > :19:06.from 140 justice and home affairs measures, and renegotiate back into
:19:06. > :19:11.the ones it wants to be part of. We have also signalled very strongly
:19:11. > :19:13.we want nothing to do with and would veto any attempts to
:19:13. > :19:21.introduce banking and financial regulation that were against
:19:21. > :19:24.Britain's interests. This is one way of relieving the
:19:24. > :19:30.frustration of a summit like this, there is plenty of frustration
:19:30. > :19:33.among EU partner, some of whom are taking aim at what they regard as
:19:33. > :19:36.Britain's aggressively negative attitude. I think it is a very bad
:19:36. > :19:40.thing that there should be a second-class membership of Great
:19:40. > :19:45.Britain. The interest of Britain and the interest of the British
:19:45. > :19:50.citizens and companies lies on the continent. A second-class
:19:50. > :19:53.membership, something inbetween Norway and Turkey seems to me a
:19:53. > :20:00.very bad move. Practically is it possible, with matters like
:20:00. > :20:06.justice? It is already prakically a little bit the case. Britain is not
:20:06. > :20:11.a member of Schengen, or the euro. So the summit briefing go on,
:20:11. > :20:16.frankly Britain isn't the biggest problem the EU is facing right now.
:20:16. > :20:20.That honour, of course, belongs to the euro crisis, that is by no
:20:20. > :20:24.means over. The measures that the 17 eurozone countries will be
:20:24. > :20:28.forced into taking will inevitably lead to further political, fiscal
:20:28. > :20:31.and economic integration, and Britain, will inevitably be,
:20:31. > :20:35.included from that. The trouble is this, we may opt out of parts of
:20:35. > :20:40.Europe, and yet what is clear is that the 17 eurozone countries are
:20:40. > :20:44.moving on to a deeper political union, of that there is no doubt.
:20:44. > :20:47.There will be meetings going on in the eurozone that make laws and
:20:47. > :20:51.rules that affect the single market, of which we are a member, and yet
:20:51. > :20:57.we are not even allowed in the room. We are becoming the Cinderella
:20:57. > :21:01.state, asked to do the skivvy, and not invited to the grand dinner and
:21:01. > :21:05.decide important things for British commerce. Not the postcard David
:21:05. > :21:09.Cameron is going to be sending home. There are forces on both sides of
:21:09. > :21:13.the channel pushing and pulling Britain away from a central role in
:21:13. > :21:22.the EU It is for the politicians to decide how much to assist or resist
:21:22. > :21:27.those forces. They call him a temporary dictator,
:21:27. > :21:31.the new Pharaoh, President Morsi, the west point man for democracy in
:21:31. > :21:36.the Arab world, no sooner had delivered a truce between Gaza and
:21:36. > :21:39.Israel, he brazenly issued constitutional decrees banning any
:21:39. > :21:49.opposition to his decisions, protests were soon to follow. Is
:21:49. > :21:49.
:21:49. > :21:54.this truly temporary, or is Israel sliding into another dictatorship.
:21:54. > :21:59.Popular fury, that we first saw in last year's uprising, repeated now
:21:59. > :22:05.in post revolutionary Egypt. Today offices of President Morsi's Muslim
:22:05. > :22:10.Brotherhood were ransacked, just as the offices of their historic enemy,
:22:10. > :22:14.Hosni Mubarak's party, were ransacked two years ago. Crowds in
:22:14. > :22:21.Cairo's Tahrir Square accused Morsi, who won a democratic election, of
:22:21. > :22:27.becoming the new Mubarak. One of Egypt's best-known
:22:27. > :22:32.politician, Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mohammed Al-Baradi, called
:22:32. > :22:35.him the new Pharaoh. They are enraged by his new rules, that his
:22:35. > :22:41.decisions can't be overruled by the courts. For many of the liberal,
:22:41. > :22:44.who sparked the uprising here, is proof, they believe, of a plan by
:22:44. > :22:49.religious forces to hijack a revolution that wasn't originally
:22:49. > :22:55.their's. The previously cautious Morsi, has been emboldened, perhaps,
:22:55. > :23:02.bit international prestige he has just won, for brokering the Gaza-
:23:02. > :23:08.Israel ceasefire. When he addressed a rally in Cairo today he insisted
:23:08. > :23:12.his powers were only temporary. TRANSLATION: I would like to see a
:23:12. > :23:17.genuine opposition, and strong opposition. I am the guarantor of
:23:17. > :23:22.that. I will protect my brothers in the opposition, all their rights so
:23:23. > :23:28.they can exercise their role as it should be.
:23:28. > :23:32.Morsi's supporters argue that the judiciaries is still full of
:23:32. > :23:35.Mubarak-era apppointees, even liberals approve his decree for a
:23:35. > :23:39.retrial of those convicted of killings in last year's uprising.
:23:40. > :23:44.But his bid for more power will only further polarise a society
:23:44. > :23:49.ever more deeply split between those for and against religious
:23:49. > :23:52.rule. Egypt's likely to become more unstable in the seven months that
:23:52. > :23:57.will now pass with no clear democratic checks and balances.
:23:57. > :24:03.Until a new parliament's elected under a new constitution, at the
:24:03. > :24:08.very earliest, next summer. With us from Cairo is a researcher
:24:08. > :24:10.for Human Rights Watch, and in Birmingham, is a spokesman for
:24:10. > :24:15.President Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood movement.
:24:15. > :24:19.First of all, how long do you think has President Morsi been planning
:24:19. > :24:23.this, it wasn't a quick decision after the Gaza truce, was it?
:24:23. > :24:26.don't think it is a quick decision. We all agree that when we are
:24:26. > :24:31.dealing with exceptional moments we need exception decisions. He
:24:31. > :24:36.usually tried to go straight forward. It does seem even that if
:24:36. > :24:39.we are able to consider everything legal, the revolution itself was
:24:39. > :24:43.illegal, because Mubarak was elected President. But he tried to
:24:43. > :24:46.achieve what he has promised his people, this is the time to do that.
:24:46. > :24:49.He hasn't asked to have the parliament's power, besides his
:24:49. > :24:54.power, this has already been given to him, but dissolution of the
:24:54. > :24:57.parliament. But a lot of the people criticising Morsi, they were all
:24:57. > :25:02.the time, over the last year trying to say he needs to take decisions,
:25:02. > :25:09.rather than say he's following the rules. Isn't this just unfinished
:25:09. > :25:12.business? No, this is a threat to the transition. Egypt has a very
:25:12. > :25:17.fragile democracy, it has had two sets of election, a decision like
:25:17. > :25:20.this, to give a President absolute power with zero oversight, he has
:25:20. > :25:23.given himself more power than the military had last year. At least
:25:23. > :25:28.with the military some of those decisions we could challenge them
:25:28. > :25:31.in the administrative courts. This is dangerous for Egypt's transition.
:25:31. > :25:34.The fact it is temporary is no guarantee of improvement. People
:25:34. > :25:38.have very serious concerns about the constitution right now, not in
:25:38. > :25:42.terms of rights and provisions, but also the broad powers given to the
:25:42. > :25:46.President. The promise of trust me, I will set myself above the law and
:25:46. > :25:49.court oversight, but trust me, I'm going to take care of things, will
:25:49. > :25:53.not resonate. Do you think that President Morsi is going to take
:25:53. > :25:57.any more temporary powers, or is this the limit of it? I don't think
:25:57. > :26:02.so, I think every way we look at it, most of the Egyptians agree about
:26:02. > :26:06.the decisions of sacking the public prosecutor, all Egyptians agree
:26:06. > :26:11.about having retrials of criminals that shed blood during the time of
:26:11. > :26:15.the revolution. If we speak about trying to protect the constitution
:26:15. > :26:18.and trying to protect the council, we have no, at the moment we have
:26:18. > :26:23.no institution at all in Egypt after dissolving the parliament.
:26:23. > :26:29.What's trying to say, at the moment, if we we are going to have voting
:26:29. > :26:33.for this institution coming, of the sort of Morsi, they can say no to
:26:33. > :26:36.the constitution if they don't like it. Do you take his promise at face
:26:36. > :26:38.value that this is a temporary measure, and when there is a
:26:38. > :26:42.constitution at the end of parliamentary election, and when
:26:42. > :26:46.indeed there is a judiciary that is more inclined towards the Muslim
:26:46. > :26:50.Brotherhood's point of view, he will recind these powers again?
:26:50. > :26:54.think the main question is what is going to happen in the next seven
:26:54. > :26:57.months. Why would a President set himself up beyond judicial
:26:57. > :27:00.oversight. Why would he include provision number six which says he
:27:00. > :27:03.can take all necessary measures to protect the revolution or the unity
:27:03. > :27:08.of the nation f it wasn't for the fact that he's planning to issue
:27:08. > :27:11.laws and decrees which will violate existing laws and violate
:27:11. > :27:15.constitutional provisions and rights. Like what? I think there
:27:15. > :27:19.are a lot of questions in terms of what's actually going to happen,
:27:19. > :27:23.for example, with the next election. Morsi, on the one hand, disables
:27:23. > :27:26.the role of the judiciary, yet will pass an electoral law and expect
:27:26. > :27:30.judges to provide oversight at the next election F he pass as law that,
:27:30. > :27:34.you know, remember the last one was declared unconstitutional, if he
:27:34. > :27:37.passes a law that is simply unconstitutional, perhaps to even
:27:37. > :27:41.benefit his own party, there will be no legal challenge to it, and
:27:41. > :27:43.yet he needs the judiciary to play this role in supervising the
:27:43. > :27:47.elections. This is incred below unhealthy.
:27:48. > :27:52.There is nothing standing in his way, is there, he can do what he
:27:52. > :27:56.wants? It is not about that. We have to see what he can do and has
:27:56. > :27:58.already done. We all know we are sorry to say that the
:27:58. > :28:05.constitutional court has been doing a lot of negative things, everyone
:28:05. > :28:11.knows about it. He has taken powers without as much as a by-your-leave,
:28:11. > :28:13.he has acted undemocratically? was actually the revolution a
:28:13. > :28:17.democratic way of doing things? He has taken the decision for the
:28:17. > :28:21.parliament to come back. Why did he say at the time of the revolution
:28:21. > :28:26.that he was going to do this, nobody had any notice of this?
:28:26. > :28:33.tried to say the public prosecutor has to go, and he has refused that.
:28:33. > :28:36.The constitutional court, as we it has been announced before, that
:28:36. > :28:39.actually they were planning everything in the dark with the
:28:39. > :28:42.military Supreme Court before. So all the Egyptians have concern
:28:42. > :28:47.about the constitutional court and what they are taking, and the law
:28:47. > :28:50.for the election that has been set at the time of the revolution was
:28:50. > :28:55.approved and passed by the constitutional court. Do you have
:28:55. > :28:58.any faith that there will be elections in the next few months?
:28:58. > :29:03.There was talk about next summer, the constitution was meant to be
:29:03. > :29:07.ready by December? Obviously the President has just extended the
:29:07. > :29:12.term of the constitutional by two month, that was necessary. I think
:29:12. > :29:15.elections will go forward, that is not the question. The protection of
:29:16. > :29:18.the Constitutional Assembly from any judicial challenges, is also
:29:18. > :29:21.equally problematic, why would a President do that, it is not within
:29:21. > :29:26.his right. There are checks and balances set up in the system. This
:29:26. > :29:29.is clearly about pushing through a vision of the system of Government
:29:29. > :29:32.that the ruling party, which controls the Constitutional
:29:32. > :29:36.Assembly, is very keen on maintaining. I would agree there
:29:36. > :29:40.are problems with the judiciary, and judicial independence is a huge
:29:40. > :29:43.problem, but you don't address problems in the judiciary by
:29:43. > :29:47.increasing executive interference by saying the executive would be
:29:47. > :29:51.above the judiciary, it is not reform and will harm Egypt.
:29:51. > :29:55.Review is up next, matter that is in Glasgow.
:29:55. > :29:59.Tonight we have got a Hollywood comedy about bipolar disorder, has
:29:59. > :30:03.been tipped for an Oscar. The big Christmas offering from the
:30:03. > :30:06.National Theatre, John Lithgow will be telling us more about that.
:30:06. > :30:10.Cross-dressing from Mark Rylance in Twelfth Night, with Stephen Fry
:30:10. > :30:15.back on stage. And Jon Hamm and Daniel Radcliffe sharing a bath.
:30:15. > :30:20.Sadly, not in the studio. Don't go away. That is just about
:30:20. > :30:26.it for tonight from Newsnight, Government code-breaker at GCHQ are
:30:26. > :30:30.stumped this week by a dead World War II carrier pigeon found in a