:00:04. > :00:12.family from future problems. Much as they may want to protect them
:00:12. > :00:14.from events, it may not be the decision in the event -- in the end.
:00:14. > :00:17.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, should our top universities be
:00:17. > :00:20.forced to take more students from poor backgrounds? And should they
:00:20. > :00:23.be fined if they don't? St Andrews says it's trying but
:00:23. > :00:26.it's not prepared to lower its standards. Does the university have
:00:26. > :00:29.a point? Good evening. This looks like a
:00:29. > :00:32.classic conflict of right against right. The Scottish Government
:00:32. > :00:35.wants more students from poor backgrounds to go to university.
:00:35. > :00:38.The universities go along to an extent, but insist they can't lower
:00:38. > :00:42.their standards and are suspicious of any suggestion of quotas. Today
:00:42. > :00:52.St Andrews became the latest to try to square the circle. But will it
:00:52. > :00:53.
:00:53. > :00:57.work? Here's Seonag Mackinnon. It is sometimes referred to as
:00:57. > :01:03.Scotland's Oxford, and with the future king and queen among its
:01:03. > :01:07.graduates, little wonder. But even that Prince William has shown his
:01:07. > :01:13.commitment to recruiting more youngsters from poorer backgrounds.
:01:13. > :01:17.The appeal we are launching today aims to raise �100 million to
:01:17. > :01:23.invest in people and ideas. Insuring that the brightest
:01:23. > :01:26.students, that is you and me of course, come to St Andrews
:01:26. > :01:31.regardless of background and circumstances.
:01:31. > :01:36.Ba Miller and Christopher, who come from state schools in Fife, save
:01:36. > :01:44.the reputation is overstated and should not put applicants offer.
:01:44. > :01:48.When I first came, it was strange hearing all the accents. My room-
:01:48. > :01:52.mate was from Chicago, and when we first met each other I was so
:01:52. > :01:59.excited about seeing an American and he was so excited about seeing
:01:59. > :02:02.a Scotsman, but we were not too intimidated by each other's accents.
:02:02. > :02:07.St Andrews is very international, and that is one of the things I
:02:07. > :02:12.like about being here. It is a bit intimidating if you come from
:02:12. > :02:17.somewhere local, but it is one of the best parts of being at the
:02:17. > :02:21.University. By last year's St Andrews only
:02:21. > :02:27.admitted 14 from Scotland's most disadvantaged homes. Today the
:02:27. > :02:33.university says it hopes to increase that to 20, set aside an
:02:33. > :02:38.extra �400,000 for bursaries. Student leaders are underwhelmed.
:02:38. > :02:43.By would expect a few -- a bit more ambition. It seems they are coming
:02:43. > :02:50.up with excuses about what they can't do rather than saying what
:02:50. > :02:53.they can do. We have seen good evidence from elsewhere but you can
:02:53. > :02:58.look at offering slightly different rates depending on the type of
:02:58. > :03:03.school you have been at. But the university says it makes an
:03:03. > :03:07.offer to the majority of those who apply from poorer homes, and it
:03:07. > :03:13.says that Vestey on campus cannot just be the responsibility of
:03:13. > :03:20.university leaders. -- diversity. It is about the wider cultural of
:03:20. > :03:24.attainment in Scotland. It is wrong to say it is just the point of
:03:24. > :03:30.leaving secondary school and entering university. Is it down to
:03:30. > :03:35.the schools that not enough students have the ambition? I think
:03:35. > :03:40.it is everything, and the universities can do more to create
:03:40. > :03:46.aspiration, but we also have to have engagement from everywhere
:03:46. > :03:53.else in society in relation to the wider societal effort.
:03:53. > :03:58.Sir is Scotland failing its poorest students? In 2011 across Scotland,
:03:58. > :04:06.2.5% of them got at least three A grades in their hires. In East
:04:06. > :04:13.Renfrewshire it was 5.6%. Edinburgh, just 1.4%.
:04:13. > :04:17.They there are about 220 people from those backgrounds who have the
:04:17. > :04:26.basic qualifications to come here, and that would be three a pass
:04:26. > :04:35.higher exams. If we can take 20 from that 220, that is 10%. We did
:04:36. > :04:42.not represent 10% of Scotland's capacity in Scotland's education.
:04:42. > :04:46.St Andrew's say they do not want to admit...
:04:46. > :04:50.The Scottish Government says it understands the dilemma and
:04:50. > :04:55.commence steps forward, but warns universities it may apply more
:04:55. > :05:00.pressure. Be it is a modest step forward, but it is a step forward
:05:00. > :05:06.and I think sick and resistor be commended for recognising the need
:05:06. > :05:10.to be admit students from elsewhere. I want to see progress on this -
:05:10. > :05:15.every one of Scotland wants to see progress and progress is welcomed.
:05:15. > :05:19.They are on Lake -- also right to argue they are not the only players.
:05:19. > :05:25.There are ways to get children from poorer backgrounds into further and
:05:25. > :05:29.higher education. Everyone agrees to few from modest
:05:30. > :05:36.homes win places on campuses, but the big question is billed the
:05:36. > :05:39.threat from -- of a cut from public funding UCCA any time soon, or
:05:39. > :05:41.achieve a breakthrough? I'm joined now from Dundee by St
:05:41. > :05:44.Andrews University's vice-principal responsible for admissions, Stephen
:05:44. > :05:47.Magee. Here in Glasgow is Gerry Lyons, head teacher of St Andrews
:05:47. > :05:49.secondary school in Carntyne, who's speaking on behalf of the School
:05:49. > :05:59.Leaders Scotland organisation. And in Edinburgh Dr Cristina Ianelli,
:05:59. > :06:01.
:06:01. > :06:07.an educational sociologist specialising in social mobility.
:06:07. > :06:11.21st of all explain, this document that you should today with these
:06:11. > :06:18.commitments on it - what is the status of that, is that an
:06:18. > :06:23.agreement you have made with the Scottish Government? Partly. Many
:06:23. > :06:29.of these things which are in the statement, for example the increase
:06:29. > :06:35.in bursaries, up or articulation of routes with further education
:06:35. > :06:39.colleges, we are doing already. understand that, but there had been
:06:39. > :06:46.some suggestions that the Scottish Government might find it
:06:46. > :06:53.universities, but it was not happy we were doing enough to increase
:06:53. > :06:57.intake from poorer backgrounds? the moment we are in the process of
:06:57. > :07:03.negotiating outcome agreements, which is what the Cabinet Secretary
:07:03. > :07:07.referred to. These have not been finalised now -- yet. So it would
:07:07. > :07:13.in theory be possible for the Scottish funding council to come
:07:13. > :07:17.back and say, that is not good enough? Bay would ask us by our
:07:17. > :07:23.ambition is at that scale, and we have tried to explain to date why
:07:23. > :07:27.we want to put in as much effort as we can't, but we are committed to
:07:27. > :07:32.this absolutely. We have to get across the scale of the problem,
:07:32. > :07:41.and a great deal of effort is going to have to go in to accept Bevis
:07:41. > :07:47.more changes. This is you're opening bid, from what you are
:07:47. > :07:53.saying? No, there was an outcome agreement last year, but this was a
:07:53. > :07:58.prototype. This is part of the ongoing process of discussing a
:07:58. > :08:03.widely just how complex this problem is, and showing each
:08:03. > :08:07.institution's commitment to solving it. But the point is you have to
:08:08. > :08:12.come to an agreement, you have not done it yet, and this is your
:08:12. > :08:21.attempt to say, is that good enough? This is part of it, there
:08:21. > :08:26.is more to it. Presumably, is there are thinning it in the university
:08:26. > :08:31.but you are being asked to do two things but or contradictory? You
:08:31. > :08:38.are in a situation where in England they now have tuition fees, so you
:08:38. > :08:43.are under great pressure to keep standards up, particularly in
:08:43. > :08:48.research, but on the other hand you have to take people from poorer
:08:48. > :08:53.backgrounds? That is correct, there is the possibility of a
:08:53. > :08:59.contradiction, but I think we can do both those things. But all of
:08:59. > :09:03.this institution within which I work is committed to excellence in
:09:03. > :09:09.teaching research, but also being accessible. If we want to be
:09:09. > :09:14.accessible, and we want to allow young Scots to rub shoulders with
:09:14. > :09:20.very bright people from the rest of the world. A commitment on you're
:09:20. > :09:28.part to take six more students from poorer backgrounds is hardly
:09:28. > :09:31.staggering. There are the best part of 30,000 places available in
:09:31. > :09:37.Scottish Higher Education four degrees each year, in St Andrews
:09:37. > :09:43.about 500. If we increase the number to 20, that 20 represents
:09:43. > :09:48.quite a big number out of the hall capacity. I want to bring the other
:09:48. > :09:52.people in, but a lot of people will understand your predicament as a
:09:52. > :09:58.university, and many of your Ordnance may have merit. The
:09:58. > :10:04.problem of this idea of we will do our bit, but it is a broader
:10:04. > :10:09.societal problem, is that everybody says it is a broad problem to do
:10:09. > :10:13.with society and Ben Franklin nothing happens. Up by am hoping
:10:13. > :10:18.something does happen. To the evidence in the coming years will
:10:19. > :10:24.show we are actually doing quite a lot. Dr Cristina Ianelli, do
:10:24. > :10:30.sympathise with their predicament? I do, because I think it is a
:10:30. > :10:38.complex phenomenon. So-so inequalities are starting from when
:10:38. > :10:42.people on board. There is no doubt that people who experience live
:10:42. > :10:48.conditions which or very disadvantaged, they bring these
:10:48. > :10:53.disadvantages onwards in their life, and in the school and in the labour
:10:53. > :11:00.market. There is no doubt that this is not just education, the problem
:11:00. > :11:08.is more a societal problem, and in that -- inequalities which exist in
:11:08. > :11:18.our society. But they have an obligation to counteract this
:11:18. > :11:24.imbalance. Gerry Lyons, do you think the University of ordering
:11:24. > :11:30.enough? Imagine it if you scroll, we were trying to get eight more
:11:30. > :11:36.students to get better grades? Fundamentally it is about the
:11:36. > :11:40.intake. I think you have to engage with the problem of and parts of
:11:40. > :11:45.the problem you can impact on, and certainly in schools that is what
:11:45. > :11:50.we try to do. There are a range of things we can do to counteract
:11:50. > :11:54.disadvantage and give young people opportunities that perhaps might be
:11:54. > :11:58.deprived -- might deprive them if it were not for the quality of the
:11:58. > :12:03.work the schools do. A if you look at the statistics for Scotland in
:12:04. > :12:09.general, there does not seem to be any evidence that that is happening.
:12:09. > :12:14.By would dispute that. In the two schools are served in Glasgow, we
:12:14. > :12:24.increased the number of people going on to universities by 11% in
:12:24. > :12:25.
:12:26. > :12:31.one and 6% in the other in the last How many more students do you have
:12:31. > :12:38.going to university? We now have 25% of school levers going on the
:12:38. > :12:41.university. My school was 1640 young people. Of those 1640, how
:12:41. > :12:51.many last year got what Stephen Magee would want, and correct me if
:12:51. > :12:51.
:12:51. > :12:55.I am wrong, I think is three As and a B. Three As and a B. Could cha be
:12:55. > :12:59.one sitting? They can come back in the sixth year. In the main one
:12:59. > :13:03.sitting is to be preferred. many of your students... In one
:13:03. > :13:08.sitting you would talk about 6% of that year group. That is the fourth
:13:08. > :13:12.year, year group. You are talking about 25 young people. Right. In
:13:12. > :13:18.fact you think you would have 25 young people coming out of your
:13:18. > :13:24.school, one school, that could go to Stephen Magee's university.
:13:24. > :13:28.Absolutely. Do they want do that? Interestingly, know they no they
:13:28. > :13:32.don't. That is one of the issues that Steven has to address, of the
:13:32. > :13:37.220 young people from deprived areas who got the necessary
:13:37. > :13:42.qualification to go to St Andrews only 55 applied to go there. 34 of
:13:42. > :13:46.them were offered placed and only 14 took them. There is an issue for
:13:46. > :13:50.St Andrews which I am sure Steven is happy to engage with, which is
:13:50. > :13:53.about how do you make St Andrews more of a viable option for young
:13:53. > :13:58.people from deprived backgrounds, and challenge that perception,
:13:58. > :14:04.which is that is for another group of people in our society and not
:14:04. > :14:11.for us.. If I can come in, I think that is absolutely right. I would
:14:11. > :14:15.dearly love to be able to persuade my fellow Glaswegians is a good
:14:15. > :14:19.option. Why do you think will have a problem? It is a very ugly phrase
:14:19. > :14:23.but we are least local credit union versety in Scotland. Possibly the
:14:23. > :14:29.least lobg in the UK. 95% of our students don't come from this area.
:14:29. > :14:32.They have to commute, they have to live here. Typically we are
:14:32. > :14:36.attracting good student from a variety of schools rather than a
:14:36. > :14:41.large number from a small variety as you might find in Glasgow. In
:14:41. > :14:46.the case of Gerry's school... wouldn't find that in Edinburgh?
:14:46. > :14:49.is a large urban population, it is not the same at all. In the case of
:14:49. > :14:53.Gerry's school. We had six application in the last were to
:14:53. > :14:58.three years and two entrants which I think is about pretty good
:14:58. > :15:03.average, given the numbers we are talking about. We can do more.
:15:03. > :15:06.you think there is a problem as it were on the other side, t it is not
:15:06. > :15:11.that universities need to do more to attract people from poorer
:15:11. > :15:16.background, but there is a barrier to people perceiving. Even if they
:15:16. > :15:22.do have the academic results, they perceive they don't want to go?
:15:22. > :15:27.agree. When I speak with a widening access with from the University of
:15:27. > :15:33.Edinburgh. They complain they don't have enough applicants with lower
:15:33. > :15:37.social background, so there is a perception among students from less
:15:37. > :15:44.advantaged background they can't fit in in those university, in that
:15:44. > :15:48.sense we can do much more, and the university can do nor show it is
:15:48. > :15:52.not an elitist university. It is an elitist credit union versety
:15:52. > :15:55.because it produces high quality research. This is the kind of
:15:55. > :16:01.things which should attract everybody, all the student
:16:01. > :16:05.population, not just the most advantaged students. What do you
:16:05. > :16:11.student, the ones who get the pass, what do they say to you about why
:16:11. > :16:15.they don't want to go places like St Andrews? They very much focus on,
:16:15. > :16:20.I think, the local university, a lot of them apply to Glasgow,
:16:20. > :16:23.Strathclyde, Glasgow Caledonian and their focus is very much there.
:16:23. > :16:26.Interestingly because those universities engage directly with
:16:26. > :16:31.us. Our young people have link programmes with those university,
:16:31. > :16:35.they spend time in them, they are mentored by students from those
:16:35. > :16:42.universities, there is a widening access programme there. Stephen
:16:42. > :16:46.right, we have sent students to St Andrews but in my time I have never
:16:46. > :16:51.engaged from anyone from St Andrews although I would be delight dod so.
:16:51. > :16:56.I think that is an invitation. would delighted to take it up. I
:16:57. > :17:02.will write to Gerry in the morning. That is excellent. There is a high
:17:02. > :17:09.Newsnight Scotland commissioning fee! Of course! We can discuss
:17:09. > :17:13.that! We write to every high school in Scotland. Let us they have 350.
:17:13. > :17:17.We visit 100 every year. If you consider the number of students
:17:17. > :17:21.that enter St Andrews in a given year from Scotland, about 500. We
:17:21. > :17:26.are probably getting on average one or two kids, not from every school
:17:26. > :17:30.every year, but pretty much you know, good standard of, at that
:17:30. > :17:34.level. Right. OK. I think all of you agree, that there is a problem
:17:34. > :17:38.here. And it is a fairly wide based problem. But the danger is, as we
:17:38. > :17:44.talked about earlier, if we keep saying it is very broad based,
:17:44. > :17:48.nothing gets down. I am curious, Dr Cristina Ianelli, if there were two
:17:48. > :17:55.or three things we could do to address this problem of
:17:55. > :17:59.underachievement, if you like, what would they be? Well, Well, some
:17:59. > :18:04.international research has shown that the best way actually to
:18:04. > :18:09.improve the educational attainment of people from lower social
:18:09. > :18:13.backgrounds is really rising standards, not damping down the
:18:13. > :18:17.standards. We wouldn't do any favour to them, or to our education
:18:17. > :18:20.system. So you would agree with Stephen Magee, under no
:18:20. > :18:24.circumstances should St Andrews for example, there shouldn't be a quota
:18:24. > :18:29.system, they shouldn't be taking students of lesser academic
:18:29. > :18:33.qualification just because they are from poor backgrounds? Well it's a
:18:33. > :18:38.difficult issue, I think not always educational attainment is showing
:18:38. > :18:42.the real potential of people. If you are born in a lower social
:18:42. > :18:46.background with less resources in a school which is disadvantaged, you
:18:46. > :18:50.have not had the same possibility to achieve highly as people from
:18:50. > :18:56.other area, so in some ways I am not saying that they have to reduce
:18:56. > :19:03.the standards, I am saying maybe they should consider clearly this
:19:03. > :19:07.other circumstances, if, you know, they can achieve, they can accept
:19:07. > :19:12.to students who have less than three As but have some other ways
:19:12. > :19:17.of measures the potential, the ability of the students, I would
:19:17. > :19:21.endorse that, because I still think again, that students not all
:19:21. > :19:27.students have the same possibility to achieve those high standards.
:19:27. > :19:32.alternative to this. What would you, Gerry, what would you suggest?
:19:32. > :19:38.couple of practical suggestion, one is we consider a more sophisticated
:19:38. > :19:42.approach to what other university - - what are the university admission
:19:42. > :19:48.criteria. There is research going into contextualised application and
:19:48. > :19:53.looking at the circumstances of a young person round gaveing five As
:19:53. > :19:55.at Higher, if you are a young carer or come from a deprived background
:19:55. > :19:59.or some other challenging circumstances that some young
:19:59. > :20:03.people come from, is at time a greater achieve and bigger
:20:04. > :20:08.challenge. The argument against that is you have to stop this at
:20:08. > :20:13.some point. There is a good reason for that, because when people go
:20:13. > :20:18.out into the big wide world and get a job, employers are not going to
:20:18. > :20:21.say you want to be an engineer, we understand you don't really
:20:21. > :20:26.understand aerodynamics very well but you come from a poor background
:20:26. > :20:31.so we will take you on. Totally agree. I have no desire to lower
:20:31. > :20:37.aspiration, I would like a better of what high achievement is for
:20:37. > :20:40.them. The other thing about that research done by the top up
:20:40. > :20:44.programme at Glasgow University showed people who went through the
:20:44. > :20:47.top up programme performed better at university, than young people
:20:47. > :20:52.from so-called wealthier backgrounds, by the time they left
:20:52. > :20:55.university, so there is no sense those young people... Are
:20:56. > :21:00.disadvantage, in fact they did better. Very brief last word to
:21:00. > :21:04.Stephen Magee. Very brief. You have heard what they want from you. What,
:21:04. > :21:07.one thing you would like from them? I would like to work with them to
:21:07. > :21:11.encourage aspiration, that is the most important thing Welsh are
:21:11. > :21:15.committed to do it. If we can raise aspiration across the piece, that
:21:15. > :21:19.will help everybody. All right. We will have to leave it there. Thank
:21:19. > :21:29.you very much indeed. Quick look at you very much indeed. Quick look at
:21:29. > :21:38.
:21:38. > :21:43.the front pages. The BBC is on the The Independent, there it is
:21:43. > :21:46.supergrass who held key to Russian fraud is found dead in Surrey.
:21:46. > :21:56.Ministers blame each other for low growth according to the financial
:21:56. > :21:59.
:21:59. > :22:03.times. That is it, I will be back Different complexion to weather in
:22:03. > :22:08.the next few days, more typical of late November and December, mostly
:22:08. > :22:11.dry, which has to be good news. Not quite there yet. Some showers still
:22:11. > :22:16.affecting parts of North East England, I am not anticipating huge
:22:16. > :22:19.amounts of rain. In fact a bit of snow developing on the North York
:22:19. > :22:24.Moors. Other county eastern England are prone to one or two showers but
:22:24. > :22:27.the emphasis is on dry weather, and further west there will be few if
:22:27. > :22:30.any showers. Sunshine in Wales and south-west England, so the clearing
:22:30. > :22:33.up operation can continue here. Cold though, the wind coming from
:22:33. > :22:37.the north. Temperatures never getting that high, despite the
:22:37. > :22:40.sunshine. Sicks and sevens will be the peak in most places. Up across
:22:40. > :22:44.Northern Ireland, after a frosty is that right, I think it is set to be
:22:44. > :22:48.a fine day, with plenty of sunshine. The risk of a shower to the north
:22:48. > :22:54.coast. Across the north of Scotland there will be a few wintry showers.
:22:54. > :22:56.Most of Scotland will stay dry and bright. Two or three degrees
:22:56. > :23:01.through the central bout belt. Northern parts of the country,
:23:01. > :23:05.bright and dry, the emphasis on frosty night, bright chilly days,
:23:05. > :23:09.further south as well, most places will be dry. There is the risk of
:23:09. > :23:14.one or two wintry showers as we get through Thursday, and on into
:23:14. > :23:17.Friday, but there few and far between on Thursday it will be