:00:14. > :00:17.help mothers get back into work. We help mothers get back into work. We
:00:17. > :00:23.reveal what the Government hopes will happen to make childcare more
:00:23. > :00:27.affordable and the economy a little more vigorous.
:00:27. > :00:30.Looks sweet, doesn't she, but are she and her friends secret
:00:30. > :00:34.saboteurs of the nation's economy. Can we afford to have a million
:00:34. > :00:38.mothers priced out of work by the cost of childcare. We want to be
:00:38. > :00:43.active members of society, that's all, and earn enough to feed our
:00:43. > :00:51.kids. Would reforming the tax system sort things, and come to
:00:51. > :00:56.that, why is childcare so dapld expensive in this country.
:00:56. > :01:00.-- damned expensive in this country. With Cairo posed for demonstration,
:01:00. > :01:04.and Goon squads on the streets. We talk to the opposition lead,
:01:04. > :01:07.Mohamed El Baradei, what does he make of President Morsi's rule.
:01:07. > :01:10.is something unprecedented in the whole history of the world. I don't
:01:10. > :01:16.think any of the Pharaohs had the same powers.
:01:16. > :01:19.And young, gifted and gaz san, what's it like to be 18 in one of
:01:20. > :01:24.the most troubled places on earth. TRANSLATION: I haven't lived long
:01:24. > :01:34.enough to know what will happen in future, all I know is we are born
:01:34. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :01:44.into war, we live in war, and we As any parent knows, children cost,
:01:44. > :01:46.a lot. So much so hum drum. But the cost of childcare has now been
:01:46. > :01:50.diagnosed as such a drag on the economy, that Newsnight understands
:01:50. > :01:53.that the Government is about to try to do something about it. We
:01:53. > :01:57.understand the coalition is considering reforming the tax
:01:58. > :02:07.system, and relaxing restrictions on childminding. There will be
:02:08. > :02:08.
:02:08. > :02:12.announcements just after Christmas. Our political editor has more.
:02:13. > :02:16.In among the traffic of inner city London, a statue to motherhood, in
:02:16. > :02:20.among the Hurley burly of the British economy, mothers too have
:02:20. > :02:30.retreated to bring up baby, while the hustle and bustle carries on
:02:30. > :02:32.
:02:32. > :02:39.around them. This statue is bronze, but you could measure what is lost
:02:39. > :02:43.to the economy with women at home in gold bullion. The rise in
:02:43. > :02:48.British living standards appears to be driven by at least, in part,
:02:48. > :02:53.women entering the work force. But in recent years those rises have
:02:53. > :02:58.plateaued, and childcare appears to be playing a part. When women have
:02:58. > :03:03.children they don't as much reach a glass ceiling but a mess neen.
:03:03. > :03:08.Their income is much diminished when they return. Politicians all
:03:08. > :03:11.round agree it is a problem, a problem where nearly a million
:03:11. > :03:14.women are missing from the work place. The Government talks a lot
:03:15. > :03:19.about mums returning to work, but not doing anything to really help
:03:19. > :03:25.us return to work, I want to, we want to. If they could put more
:03:25. > :03:28.money into supporting mothers going back to work host-six months, nine
:03:28. > :03:32.months, that would make a huge difference on careers not being
:03:32. > :03:36.lost. A tale of two mums, on very different incomes, both visited by
:03:36. > :03:40.Newsnight today. One training to be a nurse, and another, an
:03:40. > :03:43.entrepeneur, who did run a company with with a large turnover, both
:03:43. > :03:50.wondering why, in Britain today, it is so difficult to care for your
:03:50. > :03:55.kids and care for your career. We have seen the appearance of
:03:55. > :03:59.something of a childcare bubble. A lot of money has gone in, but the
:03:59. > :04:02.price has risen higher and higher. The organisation of economic co-
:04:02. > :04:06.operation and development, estimates in terms of how much the
:04:06. > :04:08.Government puts into childcare, Britain is behind only the high-
:04:08. > :04:12.spending Scandinavian countries. Experts can test this figure, they
:04:12. > :04:17.say it includes elements that are not strictly childcare, and that
:04:17. > :04:21.when a purer measure is used, British state spending on childcare
:04:21. > :04:27.is actually somewhere in the middle. All three and four-year-olds
:04:27. > :04:34.receive 15 hours of paid childcare a week during school term time. By
:04:34. > :04:38.September 2014, disadvantaged two- year-olds will also receive help.
:04:38. > :04:43.Childcare Tax Credits can be claimed by a household where when
:04:43. > :04:53.either parent works 16 households a week. Most households to claim it
:04:53. > :05:06.
:05:06. > :05:11.Nonetheless, the cost to families appears to be very hive. According
:05:11. > :05:17.to the OECD, the average UK family spends 27% of its income on child
:05:17. > :05:21.cautious that is the second-highest among OECD countries. It is for
:05:21. > :05:26.this reason that the inclination inside Government is to reform how
:05:26. > :05:29.childcare is provides, free up the regulations on who can become a
:05:29. > :05:33.childminder. In our experiences, the spaces required most are for
:05:33. > :05:37.the younger age group. There has been a lot of attention, a lot of
:05:37. > :05:42.funding on the nursery space, and therefore, accommodating older
:05:42. > :05:45.children, therefore, I would be delighted if the focus could be
:05:45. > :05:52.moved towards childminding, making it easier to register as a child
:05:52. > :05:56.minder, increasing the numbers of childminder places, so enable more
:05:56. > :06:00.children who of a younger age to be left in a home, nurturing
:06:00. > :06:04.environment. It's for this reason that the inclination inside
:06:04. > :06:08.Government is to reform how childcare is provided, before any
:06:08. > :06:15.increase in its funding. Free up the regulations on who can become a
:06:15. > :06:19.childminder. Ministers are looking to France. Their -- there one
:06:19. > :06:23.childminder can look after four children, here it is three, but
:06:23. > :06:26.quality is not diminished there. When I was looking for childcare
:06:26. > :06:30.and deciding whether or not to work. I would have loved to place my
:06:30. > :06:33.daughter in a home environment, where someone was looking after my
:06:33. > :06:37.own child plus my dau, so I knew they were in control of what they
:06:37. > :06:42.were doing, and they were happy to do that, that's what I wanted, was
:06:42. > :06:47.a nice, safe environment for them. Whether they are following
:06:47. > :06:52.educational guidelines was not a priority for me.
:06:52. > :06:55.Increase league avail -- increasing availability of child minders, with
:06:55. > :07:00.new requirements expected for higher qualifications with a view
:07:00. > :07:06.to bringing down the costs, that is one way to bring down the wall in
:07:06. > :07:09.childcare that the Government is to announce in January. What if easing
:07:09. > :07:13.the availability isn't the only problem, what if state funding
:07:13. > :07:17.isn't enough state funding. We want to get back to work, me and other
:07:17. > :07:20.mothers in my situation, we want to get back to work, we want to be
:07:20. > :07:25.active members, but we really can't, because of the financial restraints
:07:25. > :07:28.we have on us. Labour politicians are proud of the
:07:28. > :07:32.investment they made in child cautious including Sure Start, but
:07:32. > :07:35.now many think they must change tack, that new money must be spent
:07:35. > :07:39.on providing the child cautious instead of just giving the parents
:07:39. > :07:43.the ability to pay for it, if there is little to buy, prices remain
:07:43. > :07:46.high. Free universal childcare for all 1-4-year-olds, is something the
:07:46. > :07:51.opposition would like to offer. do spend a lot of money currently
:07:51. > :07:55.in this country supporting the childcare sector, supporting
:07:55. > :07:59.parents. But is all that money being spent in the best way. This
:07:59. > :08:02.is what we are trying to do. Hopefully we will be bringing
:08:02. > :08:08.forward some proposals in due course, that will definitely make
:08:08. > :08:11.this a lot better for the future. The Conservative came has always
:08:11. > :08:15.been to make childcare tax deductable, Newsnight understands
:08:15. > :08:20.they will make progress on this in January. Offering a flat rate of a
:08:20. > :08:25.third tax-free, because there will be statues erected to the political
:08:25. > :08:29.party that cracks this. The Institute for Public Policy
:08:29. > :08:36.Research think-tank shows 25 hours provision a week, would provide a
:08:36. > :08:40.net benefit to taxpayer for between �1,000-�4,000 a year for every mum
:08:40. > :08:43.that returns to work. Something you can measure in gold. No-one from
:08:43. > :08:48.the Government was available to speak to us tonight, I'm joined by
:08:48. > :08:55.a French socialist MP, who represents French expats in
:08:56. > :09:00.northern Europe. Karen Walker from the Bank First Direct, Zoe Williams,
:09:00. > :09:03.and Helen Penn, I pointed by Government to write a report into
:09:03. > :09:07.child cautious she has submitted her report and it is still awaiting
:09:07. > :09:12.publication. What about the idea, professor, of one childminder being
:09:12. > :09:16.able to look after more children, will that solve the problem?
:09:16. > :09:22.Why not? Well, the problem is that the cost is so high at the point of
:09:22. > :09:27.ruse, whether it is a childminder or a nurse -- use, whether it is a
:09:27. > :09:31.childminder or nursery. Those childcare that has a low cost for
:09:31. > :09:35.parents funds the provision directly, so when the parent comes
:09:35. > :09:40.to pay it is reasonably calculated on the basis of household income.
:09:40. > :09:44.We will get on to that point in a moment or two. Why is it in France
:09:44. > :09:50.one person can look after so many more children than apparently they
:09:50. > :09:54.can do here. Are French children better behaved? They are very
:09:54. > :09:59.disciplined, don't you know! I'm not too sure, exactly. I think it
:09:59. > :10:05.is three children per childminder. Are we overregulated? No, clearly
:10:05. > :10:09.the child minders need good training and supervision. In France
:10:09. > :10:15.we offer a mission of solutions, through Child Tax Credit, universal
:10:15. > :10:19.child benefit and spaces in nurseries, and encouraging child
:10:19. > :10:23.minders to do their jobs. What is your gut instinct? My gut instinct
:10:23. > :10:27.is the Government is going about it all the wrong way. Basically, you
:10:27. > :10:31.talk about a million women jumping out of the work force because they
:10:31. > :10:36.can't afford child cautious that corresponds directly with the drop
:10:36. > :10:44.in child -- childcare, that correspond dends directly with the
:10:44. > :10:49.drop in -- corresponds directly with the drop in Child Tax Credits,
:10:49. > :10:55.that coincides directly with that. The solution isn't more nannies, it
:10:55. > :10:59.is making it possible for those on low incomes to afford childcare. It
:10:59. > :11:04.is not for other women to earn less for other women to pay them, you
:11:04. > :11:09.are creating a poverty problem somewhere else. Karen Walker, First
:11:10. > :11:16.Direct, you run your own childcare programme there, do you? We do, yes.
:11:16. > :11:19.It is run by an external company, but we have had the relationship
:11:19. > :11:22.for the last 23 years. How many children have you got in it? Around
:11:22. > :11:27.250 children in the nursery. many adults looking after that vast
:11:27. > :11:32.number of children? It depends on the age of the child. But it will
:11:32. > :11:36.either be a one-to-three ratio or one-to-four ratio, depending on the
:11:36. > :11:41.child. Could the adults cope with more? Not in that environment, no,
:11:41. > :11:50.I don't. Why is it worth your while, as an employer, providing this
:11:50. > :11:55.service? Why do we do this? Yes? Because very much it is about our
:11:55. > :12:00.support for our parents and carers to come back into work, when they
:12:00. > :12:03.have been off on paternity leave or maternity leave. We have invested a
:12:03. > :12:06.lot of time to recruit and develop these people, it is really key for
:12:06. > :12:11.us to get them back into the work place and we are able to support
:12:11. > :12:15.them for that. Why is it so important? Because we
:12:15. > :12:19.invest up front, we invest a lot in these people, we know that if we
:12:19. > :12:22.value our people that they will value our customer and we are in
:12:22. > :12:25.the service industry. It results in amazing service for our customers.
:12:25. > :12:30.You are not a social service, you are doing this because it makes
:12:30. > :12:34.sense to the company? It makes perfect sense for our company.
:12:34. > :12:37.Let's look at this question. Go on, you are desperate to get in? This
:12:37. > :12:40.is the conversation they had in Germany, not particularly about
:12:40. > :12:44.customer services, when we were discussing the fact that they had
:12:44. > :12:46.very poor childcare provision, they said, look we spent all the money
:12:46. > :12:49.educating women, then we lose theired education when they drop
:12:49. > :12:53.out of the work force and don't come back, they literally had a
:12:53. > :12:58.conversation, do you stop educating them, or do you start paying for
:12:58. > :13:01.childcare! It was that stark. Because otherwise you lose so much.
:13:01. > :13:05.Virtually every advanced western economy is confronted with this
:13:05. > :13:09.problem, and they have decided to go about it in different ways,
:13:09. > :13:15.Helen, you were referring earlier to wait in which the finances
:13:15. > :13:19.operate, the Government finances? Yes, most countries use supply-side
:13:19. > :13:23.funding, that is they fund the nurseries directly, so that
:13:23. > :13:29.nurseries can offer low fees to those parents who can't afford very
:13:29. > :13:35.much. We do it backwards so, we make people pay whatever the
:13:35. > :13:40.nursery asks, and we say, well we will refund you, perhaps. So at the
:13:40. > :13:44.point of use, parents are faced with huge costs for getting a
:13:44. > :13:48.nursery or even a childminder. France went for that system, didn't
:13:48. > :13:52.they, essentially, the French Government funds the nurseries
:13:52. > :13:57.directly, doesn't it? Yes, yes. Which means it is almost free for
:13:57. > :14:03.the parents. But then, not all the parents are guaranteed to have a
:14:03. > :14:09.space. The current Government is undergoing a vast programme of
:14:09. > :14:13.offering new spaces in new nurseries in order to meet the
:14:13. > :14:16.requirements. I think it is half a million of children still need
:14:16. > :14:20.spaces in nurseries. Well, I wish our Government would
:14:20. > :14:24.copy you. It is also about the future of the state, because there
:14:24. > :14:32.is the demo graphy at stake here, the children of today will pay for
:14:32. > :14:36.the pensions of tomorrow. It is about a national strategy to
:14:36. > :14:40.encourage families to have children. We spend by calculation, it is hard
:14:40. > :14:43.to work out, about �7 billion in this country on this matter.
:14:43. > :14:50.Possibly a higher proportion of the national income than you guys spend
:14:50. > :14:55.in France. Why is it so inefficient here? It is always inefficient if
:14:55. > :14:58.you give the finding retrospectively, people -- funding
:14:58. > :15:02.retrospectively, people don't do it and it is a muddle. The number of
:15:02. > :15:08.people who don't claim is really very high. We can't, it is very
:15:08. > :15:12.difficult to track the funding, it is very difficult to follow it
:15:12. > :15:15.through. But who are these people who don't claim, it is free money?
:15:15. > :15:20.Well lots of them. There is unclaimed benefits all over the
:15:20. > :15:23.place. It is hard to make claims. And any way, people's circumstances,
:15:23. > :15:28.particularly when they have young families are continually changing.
:15:28. > :15:38.Who really benefits from the fact that we do it this way round?
:15:38. > :15:43.it's hard to say. It discriminates on people on lower incomes, isn't
:15:43. > :15:46.that the case? Certainly our system doesn't benefit those on lower
:15:46. > :15:50.income, if you look at it comparatively across the country,
:15:50. > :15:54.we do rather badly by the poorest. Our system is just very wasteful.
:15:54. > :15:57.It is not, as you say, we are not spending the money, we are spending
:15:57. > :16:00.the money, but it doesn't seem to be going where it is needed most.
:16:00. > :16:04.That is the absolutely baffling thing about childcare in this
:16:04. > :16:08.country, is nobody is getting rich out of it, the nurseries aren't
:16:08. > :16:11.getting rich, the nursery workers aren't getting paid that much,
:16:11. > :16:15.mothers are crippling themselves to afford it. Childcare is very
:16:15. > :16:19.expensive in this country? It is expensive everywhere, it is not a
:16:19. > :16:25.cheap service. Human relationships cannot be priced down in a very
:16:25. > :16:30.straight forward way. You can try. But still it is known to be very
:16:30. > :16:34.expensive, it can cost up to �300 a week, so it means women have to
:16:34. > :16:38.choose between keeping their job, or looking after their children. It
:16:38. > :16:42.shouldn't be that. You have got children? I have two children.
:16:42. > :16:49.you living here when you had them? Yes. Could you get childcare?
:16:49. > :16:53.was a student, so I had to stay at home, I was looking for a job.
:16:53. > :16:58.was simply because you couldn't afford it? I couldn't have afforded
:16:59. > :17:03.it. Could you have afforded it in France? I suppose so, I haven't
:17:03. > :17:08.tried, it depends where you live. In some cities childcare is
:17:08. > :17:12.affordable, and it is not a case in the other places. You explain this
:17:12. > :17:16.difference by the fact that the state subsidises the nurseries or
:17:16. > :17:21.the childcare provision in France and it doesn't here? I suppose so,
:17:21. > :17:26.all I can see is in the end the average spending on childcare for a
:17:26. > :17:30.family in France is around 10% of the monthly budget, where as it is
:17:30. > :17:33.around 30% here. So there must be something going wrong somewhere,
:17:33. > :17:38.but I don't know where, exactly. Karen Walker, from your experience,
:17:38. > :17:45.what do you think is the responsibility of the state?
:17:45. > :17:48.think it's to provide help and support, in terms of the facilities
:17:48. > :17:51.that we provide, and putting a little bit more pressure on
:17:51. > :17:55.employers as well. I think there is a lack of facilities available when
:17:55. > :18:00.you walk into a work place, that provides for working mums and
:18:00. > :18:03.fathers. So you think that the state should
:18:03. > :18:09.be encouraging other employers to do what you are doing? Absolutely,
:18:09. > :18:13.yes. It should. Should it go further than encourage, should it
:18:13. > :18:16.subsidise? I think that would be really useful. They do offer a free
:18:16. > :18:20.education entitlement for children over three, so I could put my
:18:20. > :18:25.children in nursery externally, and get that entitlement for free up to
:18:25. > :18:29.so many hours a week. But, they could do so much more.
:18:29. > :18:37.What's your sense of whether we're likely to change the way in which
:18:37. > :18:41.we do this? We have some fundamental problems about how we
:18:41. > :18:45.define childcare and education. You wouldn't expect businesses to
:18:45. > :18:50.provide education instead of school, so why on earth are you expecting
:18:50. > :18:56.them to provide childcare. I think the whole system that we have here
:18:56. > :19:00.needs to be co-ordinated, better thought out, and if the price is
:19:00. > :19:03.that parents notionally don't have so much choice, maybe that is a
:19:03. > :19:09.good thing. Do you think Government is seized of the urgency of this
:19:09. > :19:13.problem, what is it doing to the economy? Well, we have a lower
:19:13. > :19:19.percentage, relatively low percentage of working women, 63%,
:19:19. > :19:24.compared with up to 80% in some countries. But the worst thing for
:19:24. > :19:28.me, I think, is that it is the poorest families who aren't using
:19:28. > :19:33.the childcare. That's a question of social justice, I suppose, as much
:19:34. > :19:36.as anything. What is the effect on society? That women aren't working,
:19:36. > :19:42.or that children aren't getting educated properly. That women
:19:42. > :19:45.aren't working, that you have this core of trained individuals who,
:19:45. > :19:50.because of biological circumstances, are no longer in the work place?
:19:50. > :19:54.That is costly, but I think it is also costly that children aren't
:19:54. > :19:56.educated properly as well as looked after. Until we get it straight
:19:57. > :19:59.what is childcare and what is education, and what we should be
:19:59. > :20:05.doing for children and what we should be doing for mothers, we
:20:05. > :20:08.will not really progress very much. What do you sense the consequences?
:20:08. > :20:12.Obviously there is an economic consequence to lose these women out
:20:12. > :20:17.of work force. Especially, as we know what happens, there is a
:20:17. > :20:23.Doppler effect that the longer you are out the longer it takes to get
:20:23. > :20:28.back in and you never get back to the same level. There is a social
:20:28. > :20:32.problem if kids don't mix at a young age, Sure Start ensured that
:20:32. > :20:36.kids from all kinds of backgrounds really got familiar with each other
:20:36. > :20:40.from the age of one, it was a huge big deal. I think to lose that
:20:40. > :20:45.would be really tragic. Do you sense something odd about this
:20:45. > :20:50.society because of the way that we deal with this question? Not too
:20:50. > :20:55.much French gloating, but off you go? No, but I'm not sure it is the
:20:55. > :21:00.markets or the markets only that should deal with childcare. I think
:21:00. > :21:07.it is a society question, and it should be also up to the state to
:21:07. > :21:10.look into it. We have a system where childcare is regarded as a
:21:11. > :21:15.business, and people buy into it. It is like all these things, under
:21:15. > :21:19.the guise of choice, you end up with no choice at all, you can
:21:19. > :21:21.either afford it or not, that is the only choice. We will await the
:21:21. > :21:25.announcement after Christmas with great interest.
:21:25. > :21:30.Thank you very much. Hard to read the ruins in Egypt these days, on
:21:30. > :21:36.the one hand the new President has given up powers he had given
:21:36. > :21:42.himself, but on the other he has authorised the military to arrest
:21:42. > :21:45.civilians. Not unexpected on the second anniversary of the Arab
:21:45. > :21:47.Spring there would still be demonstrations. Big protests are
:21:47. > :21:51.planned tomorrow, ahead of the referendum this weekend, where
:21:51. > :21:56.people are asked to pass judgment on their new constitution. Liberals
:21:56. > :22:00.claim that Mohamed Morsi, the President, is as bad or worse as
:22:00. > :22:02.President Mubarak. Before I talk to the opposition leader, Mohamed El
:22:02. > :22:06.Baradei, our diplomatic editor reports.
:22:06. > :22:10.Egyptians have certainly done plenty ofing since the fall of
:22:10. > :22:14.Mubarak, but it -- voting since the fall of Mubarak, but it hasn't
:22:14. > :22:19.brought stability. Protests and industrial action have done much to
:22:19. > :22:26.frighten off tourists and investors, leaving Egypt's economy tottering.
:22:26. > :22:32.Democracy, per se, has hardly helped. In November 201011, the
:22:32. > :22:38.first of three phases of -- 2011, the first of three phases of
:22:38. > :22:42.parliamentary elections were held, in January 2012 it produced a
:22:42. > :22:48.majority for the Muslim Brotherhood, and Salafist parties. Then came the
:22:48. > :22:52.presidential polls, the first round in May featured a variety of
:22:52. > :22:58.candidates. By June, and the run- off between Mohamed Morsi and
:22:58. > :23:01.former general Ahmed Shafiq, third way candidates who represented
:23:01. > :23:03.neither the Muslim Brotherhood and the military had gone, many people
:23:04. > :23:11.abstained as a result. Now on Saturday they will get the chance
:23:11. > :23:17.to vote on a new constitution. But this has prompted renewed battle on
:23:17. > :23:23.the streets. It retains existing clauses that
:23:23. > :23:25.Sharia or religious jurs prudence should be the main source -- juris
:23:25. > :23:30.prudence should be the main source of law. It gives the Islamic
:23:30. > :23:33.university a role in drafting new laws, and says the state shall
:23:33. > :23:40.protect ethics, morals and public order. It also allows for a
:23:40. > :23:44.continued military role in upholding that order.
:23:44. > :23:49.A limits the President to two four- year terms. Since Dr Morsi's
:23:49. > :23:53.election, there has been a war of decrees, between a constitutional
:23:53. > :24:03.court trying to thwart the new ruler. And a President who wants to
:24:03. > :24:06.grasp his democratic mandate. TRANSLATION: I'm eager to protect
:24:06. > :24:13.the legitimacy of the country, and I'm against those who harms the
:24:13. > :24:17.institutions and the nations, I will never allow them to do that.
:24:17. > :24:22.The President's decree of last month was intended to nudge aside
:24:22. > :24:26.the judiciary, while he got the new constitution through. But the
:24:26. > :24:33.backlash against his tactics has energised hundreds of thousands of
:24:33. > :24:37.Egyptians, who reject both the old regime and the Muslim Brotherhood.
:24:37. > :24:41.They had long alleged a de facto alliance between the country's old
:24:41. > :24:45.military elite, and it's new Islamist masters. By calling the
:24:45. > :24:51.army to protect the Presidential Palace, President Morsi has given
:24:51. > :24:55.these opponents new purpose. Earlier I spoke to Mohamed El
:24:55. > :25:01.Baradei, his home in Egypt. I asked him how he was planning to
:25:01. > :25:07.vote in Saturday's referendum. Jeremy, I think at this stage you
:25:07. > :25:15.are going to fight the referendum in the street. Tomorrow there will
:25:15. > :25:21.be a huge demonstration. We believe it is illegitimate to go and vote
:25:21. > :25:26.for a sham draft constitution. We would at least time to reach a
:25:26. > :25:30.consensus on a constitution where we will all accept and all will
:25:30. > :25:33.live with it. This is a constitution that defies our basic
:25:33. > :25:40.rights and freedom, it doesn't establish a proper democratic
:25:40. > :25:44.system. We are at this stage deciding that we continue to fight
:25:44. > :25:47.tooth and nail the referendum next Saturday. You will boycott the
:25:47. > :25:51.referendum? We are not sure at this stage, injure me I think tomorrow
:25:51. > :25:55.we are going -- Jeremy, I think tomorrow we are going to stage a
:25:55. > :26:01.huge demonstration, hopefully Mr Morsi will listen to us, and
:26:01. > :26:04.postpone the referendum until we are able to reach, through dialogue,
:26:04. > :26:09.a proper consensus on a proper democratic constitution. Why not
:26:09. > :26:14.take part in the referendum, and at least register the size of
:26:14. > :26:19.opposition? This is an option, but when the whole thing, Jeremy, is
:26:19. > :26:26.illegitimate, when you have a document that defies and undermines
:26:26. > :26:29.your basic rights and freedom, you don't want to give legitimacy to a
:26:30. > :26:32.sham process. I have the constitution in front of me, it
:26:32. > :26:37.guarantees freedom, equality, freedom of expression, what is
:26:37. > :26:40.wrong with it? There is a lot wrong with it, Jeremy. If you look at
:26:40. > :26:46.freedom of religion, we want to make sure that everybody has the
:26:46. > :26:50.right to observe his belief. It is not there. It only talks about the
:26:50. > :26:54.three monolithic religions, if you talk about freedom of expression,
:26:55. > :27:01.it gives the permission to arrest people for their expressing their
:27:01. > :27:04.views. It makes the whole process hostage to religious institutions,
:27:05. > :27:09.rather than the judiciary. It is surely better than the constitution
:27:09. > :27:12.you had under Mubarak, isn't it? I'm not sure, actually. In some
:27:12. > :27:17.parts it is even worse than the constitution of President Mubarak,
:27:17. > :27:21.that is the irony of it. That's why you see the anger in the street.
:27:22. > :27:26.Because people, after this beautiful uprising, expected to see
:27:26. > :27:31.a real democratic constitution. That has a proper balance of power,
:27:31. > :27:35.that it has the freedom, the universal freedom, clearly
:27:35. > :27:38.recognised. In some parts, which I'm sad to say that, it is even
:27:38. > :27:44.worse than Mr Mubarak's constitution. Are you afraid of
:27:44. > :27:49.something akin to civil war? It is there, it looms on the horizon.
:27:49. > :27:52.That is why I'm calling on Mr Horsman and company, to make sure
:27:52. > :27:58.that they have to understand, they are not a majority, even if they
:27:58. > :28:02.are a majority, they are not at all. I think they are 20,-30% of the
:28:02. > :28:05.Egyptians. It is not right to impose your views, which is to say
:28:05. > :28:09.the least extremist views, that are not shared by the majority of the
:28:09. > :28:19.Egyptians, to the rest of the country. If you insist on doing
:28:19. > :28:20.
:28:20. > :28:23.that, you are lead leaving -- leaving us no option than a head-on
:28:23. > :28:28.clash. There is nobody who wants that less than me. The economy will
:28:28. > :28:32.default in six months, security is not there, Sinai is a fertile
:28:32. > :28:38.ground for extremism, how on earth are we going to work through this
:28:38. > :28:42.without a proper dialogue. When you see how Mr Morsi is behaving, do
:28:42. > :28:44.you wish you had had stood for the presidency? Absolutely not. I would
:28:44. > :28:48.have stood for the presidency, Jeremy, if we had a proper
:28:48. > :28:51.constitution. The reason I didn't stand is to avoid being in where Mr
:28:51. > :28:55.Morsi right now, naturally I would not have been in his position, I
:28:55. > :28:58.would have acted differently, but you do not want to be a President
:28:58. > :29:03.in a situation when there is no rules of the game. I saw the other
:29:03. > :29:10.day that you had had referred to Mr Morsi as something like a Pharaoh,
:29:10. > :29:13.did you really mean that? Absolutely. He had, until yesterday,
:29:13. > :29:17.when he recinded some part of this constitutional declaration, he had
:29:17. > :29:24.call the powers, he had the executive power, the legislative
:29:24. > :29:30.power, and he and -- and he NUT turd the judiciary. It is something
:29:30. > :29:34.new in the whole world. I don't think -- newtered the judiciary, I
:29:34. > :29:39.think it is something new in the whole world. I don't think this is
:29:39. > :29:42.how you can rule a country in the 21st century. The country has been
:29:43. > :29:46.reduced to one single person. are laughing this off, but this is
:29:46. > :29:52.a very serious time for Egypt? is serious, it is serious for my
:29:52. > :29:55.family. My daughter, who lives in London, and who probably will be
:29:55. > :29:58.listening to me tonight is worried, my family are worried. I don't
:29:58. > :30:08.think they can go through with that. I think that would be the beginning
:30:08. > :30:11.of the end, frankly. We will stay in the Middle East for a while. In
:30:11. > :30:14.the end, all these apparently iterimable conflicts, which the
:30:14. > :30:19.rest of the world worries about until something else make as claim
:30:19. > :30:24.on their anxiety, are about human needs, emotional as much as
:30:24. > :30:29.material. Nowhere on earth, perhaps, matches Gaza, the shriller of land
:30:29. > :30:32.on the Mediterranean coast, left to -- sliver of land on the
:30:32. > :30:37.Mediterranean coast, left to the Palestinians. The Palestinians have
:30:37. > :30:40.now achieved a degree of recognition by the UN, much to
:30:40. > :30:45.Israel's fury, and Gazans have just emerged from a very one-sided
:30:45. > :30:50.conflict with their neighbour. What is it like to grow up and live in
:30:50. > :30:58.such an embattled society. We have been there speaking to two young
:30:58. > :31:05.Gazans. 5.00am in Gaza, barely even dawn.
:31:06. > :31:12.But time already to be stirring in one unlucky house.
:31:12. > :31:17.A mother's duty, to send her son to place she dreads.
:31:17. > :31:22.Though year by year it gets no easier.
:31:23. > :31:31.Tea, she hopes, will revive him. But that's not the first fix
:31:31. > :31:39.Mohammed needs to face the day. Elsewhere in Gaza, other hands are
:31:40. > :31:44.breaking bonds. They are ego Tory get to work.
:31:44. > :31:50.-- eager to get to work. Heading off towards the horizon, mad lean
:31:50. > :31:55.loves her job, but she -- mad da lean loves her job, but she, too,
:31:55. > :32:04.like Mohammed is caught in a web of restrictions she can't unravel.
:32:04. > :32:10.This is the story two of 18-year- olds. Forced to grow up before
:32:10. > :32:13.their time, in a tiny, teeming sliver of land, from which there is
:32:13. > :32:17.almost no escape. Gaza, blockaded by neighbours, Israel and Egypt,
:32:17. > :32:26.for the last five years, and at war again with Israel only last month,
:32:26. > :32:30.there is little room for childhood. Mohammed is resisting reality,
:32:30. > :32:35.today, as almost every day, he faces another gruelling and
:32:35. > :32:38.dangerous 12-hour shift in the smothering tunnelling between the
:32:38. > :32:43.Gazan and Egyptian border. TRANSLATION: This work is criminal
:32:43. > :32:50.work, no-one should do it. Have you ever seen anyone dig their own
:32:50. > :32:54.grave, their own grave with their own hands, while you are digging,
:32:54. > :32:59.that the tunnel might collapse at any time and kill you.
:33:00. > :33:03.But he must go, whatever the risk. Mohammed's father, with a bad back,
:33:03. > :33:10.hasn't worked for years. His mother, depends on her son to
:33:10. > :33:15.feed the family of eight. He is an adult now, just. But he
:33:15. > :33:20.has been working full-time in the tunnels since he was 14. Before
:33:20. > :33:27.that at many other jobs. TRANSLATION: I didn't have a
:33:27. > :33:36.childhood. When I was eight I worked as a porter at the border.
:33:36. > :33:46.Carrying luggage. Even when I was very young. I work as well as
:33:46. > :33:46.
:33:46. > :33:55.studying. But then, I found there was no time to study. Madelene has
:33:55. > :34:02.had little time to study either. She's also her family's chief bread
:34:02. > :34:05.winner, and Gaza's only fisherwomen, it makes her job more complicated.
:34:05. > :34:12.TRANSLATION: I'm taking my gown out here, because the harbour is full
:34:12. > :34:15.of men and boys, and they follow me with their eyes.
:34:15. > :34:19.I get trouble from some fishermen, they are jealous of me, because I
:34:19. > :34:24.go out to sea and come back successfully.
:34:24. > :34:34.Sometimes they don't do so well. I get problems from the police too,
:34:34. > :34:35.
:34:35. > :34:39.because I'm the only girl. They say it is forbidden, you can't go.
:34:39. > :34:44.But Madelene has gone any way, full-time for the last four years.
:34:44. > :34:50.Like her father, and grandfathers before.
:34:50. > :34:54.She is battling waves and politics. Israel, afraid of gun running,
:34:54. > :34:58.won't less Gazans fish far out. The ceasefire, after last month's
:34:58. > :35:05.conflict extended the limit, but only from three to six nautical
:35:05. > :35:10.miles. TRANSLATION: When they gave us
:35:10. > :35:16.another three miles, the catches got better, but in another few
:35:16. > :35:20.weeks the fish up to six miles will be used up to. There are a lot of
:35:20. > :35:26.fishermen and though go fishing all the time, most of the fish are
:35:26. > :35:31.beyond the new boundary. Today with a storm brewing she's not testing
:35:31. > :35:38.the limit, she might strike lucky close in shore, if the kid brother
:35:38. > :35:42.can scare the fish into the net. At Mohammed's house, 22 miles away,
:35:42. > :35:52.at the far end of the strip, work can be put off no longer.
:35:52. > :35:55.
:35:55. > :36:04.Or not much longer. He's off to be a human mole.
:36:04. > :36:07.Another day. When a mother can only wait and pray.
:36:07. > :36:13.With 28% unemployment here, thousands like him have taken the
:36:13. > :36:18.road to the tunnels, since the blockade began. That was five years
:36:18. > :36:23.ago, when the armed Islamist movement, Hamas, came to power here.
:36:23. > :36:30.Now, the tunnels are a huge industry. One of the main
:36:30. > :36:34.industries in Gaza. The holes that honeycomb the sand beneath the
:36:34. > :36:40.border have become a mini-Klondike, the petrol pumped through, and the
:36:40. > :36:46.mugled goods swept away, supply Hamas, providing much of the
:36:46. > :36:51.Government's revenue. But the system depends on the cheap
:36:51. > :36:57.muscle of men like Mohammed. Not for nothing his mates call him "the
:36:57. > :37:00.untamed bull". He has drilled and dug many
:37:00. > :37:05.passages like this through the treacherous sand and mud, hundreds
:37:05. > :37:11.have been buried alive in recent years when they collapse. Suddenly,
:37:11. > :37:15.they are worried it is happening again now.
:37:15. > :37:18.Hear the distant thud, and look the power has gone off further down the
:37:18. > :37:23.tunnel. TRANSLATION: The electricity went
:37:23. > :37:31.off because the roof fell in. One prop slipped and took another with
:37:31. > :37:41.it, if anyone had been underneath, it would have killed them. Now they
:37:41. > :37:52.
:37:52. > :38:00.have to switch the whole system off to try to repair it.
:38:00. > :38:06.It's almost dark too at sea, where Madelene has made a catch. A haul
:38:06. > :38:14.that will earn her perhaps 20 shekles, �3, it is nowhere near
:38:14. > :38:17.enough to cover the cost of the fuel for today's outing. Now the
:38:17. > :38:23.storm means no more fishing for a day or two. The family sit in the
:38:23. > :38:29.dark in one of Gaza's many power cuts, mending nets. And thinking
:38:29. > :38:35.about mending their gerry-built house, indirectly damaged last
:38:35. > :38:41.month, by Israeli rocket attacks. TRANSLATION: Look it is all broken.
:38:41. > :38:47.We have had to put some stuff on the roof. It is made of asbestos,
:38:47. > :38:55.the shockwaves from the blasts break everything. We are very close
:38:55. > :39:00.to military targets, so there are a lot of attacks around here.
:39:00. > :39:05.Elsewhere in Gaza, whole houses were destroyed. More than 160 lives
:39:05. > :39:10.were lost. Hamas says it won, mainly because a few rockets from
:39:10. > :39:14.here hit central Israel, and it tells the two thirds of Gazans,
:39:14. > :39:20.registered refugees, fugutives from what is now Israel or their
:39:20. > :39:24.descends, that one day they will go -- descendants, that one day they
:39:24. > :39:28.will go home. Madelene doesn't believe any of it? TRANSLATION:
:39:28. > :39:34.story of our home town ended a long time ago. It is a dream toe think
:39:34. > :39:38.we will ever return there. It is impossible.
:39:38. > :39:43.Whielt conflict goes on, so do the tunnels -- while the conflict goes
:39:43. > :39:46.on, so do the tunnels. Building materials must be smuggled, since
:39:46. > :39:52.Israel fears Hamas might use them for military infrastructure,
:39:52. > :39:56.weapons must be smuggled too. For the last two years, food and
:39:56. > :40:01.consumer goods have been let in legally, but they are cheaper
:40:01. > :40:05.brought in underground. Mohammed is taking break after repairing the
:40:05. > :40:12.breach, alongside a boy who looks younger than he was when he started.
:40:12. > :40:17.Then he's back to his main job, as beast of burden.
:40:17. > :40:23.The work so exhausting most tunnel workers take the painkiller
:40:23. > :40:29.tramadol. TRANSLATION: It is death work,
:40:29. > :40:33.exhausting, yesterday I walked 500ms carrying a carbon net, I was
:40:33. > :40:37.sweating all over. There is -- car bonnet, I was sweating all over.
:40:37. > :40:42.There is no ventilation down there, you feel you can't breathe, you
:40:42. > :40:48.can't carry on, that is why you take tablets. But Mohammed became
:40:48. > :40:52.addicted to Tramadol, it turned him into an invincible machine, then it
:40:52. > :40:58.sapped his strength, and used up all the money he was earning.
:40:58. > :41:03.TRANSLATION: I stopped eating, I stopped drinking anything. All I
:41:03. > :41:11.wanted was to take Tramadol and work like a donkey, it stopped
:41:11. > :41:20.working so well. So I increased the dose. Then, one day I collapsed in
:41:20. > :41:28.the tunnel, I was carrying a big sack of flour. I started having a
:41:28. > :41:33.hit fit, I lost consciousness, that is when I decided to quit. I didn't
:41:33. > :41:38.sleep for two months, I didn't talk to any human being. Two months, and
:41:38. > :41:43.I thought I would never come back to myself. Fits, anger, a lot of
:41:43. > :41:53.things happened to me, I hated myself, sometimes I wanted to
:41:53. > :41:55.
:41:55. > :41:59.strangle myself to death. But now, thank God, I'm not using it.
:41:59. > :42:04.beach is where Mohammed spent much of his time as he overcame his
:42:04. > :42:09.addiction, and still the only place he says he can relax.
:42:09. > :42:14.TRANSLATION: The sea is my best friend, the only friend I can tell
:42:14. > :42:18.my problems to. In another life, he would like to be an airline pilot.
:42:18. > :42:24.But he knows that will never happen. Doesn't he feel bad that young
:42:24. > :42:29.people in other countries have a chance to study, and even to play?
:42:29. > :42:35.TRANSLATION: That's what I feel. Very much. Many times I have
:42:35. > :42:40.wondered why I couldn't be like them. Well-dressed, going to school,
:42:40. > :42:45.everything perfect, why it has to be like this for me, are they
:42:45. > :42:49.better than me. Madelene will have to marry soon, she has had lots of
:42:49. > :42:56.suitors already. But she and her father have said no
:42:56. > :42:59.to them all. TRANSLATION: I don't believe there will be anyone who
:42:59. > :43:05.will deserve Madelene and protect her. I don't think she will have a
:43:05. > :43:11.good future in this country. Our society is closed, very closed, and
:43:11. > :43:15.she's a free spirit. Her marriage may fail because here they don't
:43:15. > :43:21.respect independent women. As for Madelene herself, the sea is the
:43:21. > :43:26.only horizon that means much to her. TRANSLATION: I hope the sea will be
:43:26. > :43:29.open much more than six miles, and all the other gates to Gaza will be
:43:29. > :43:35.opened, and everyone will stop thinking, every time they hear a
:43:35. > :43:39.plane that there is going to be a rocket attack. But she's not very
:43:39. > :43:44.hopeful. Madelene, like Mohammed, was born in 1994. The year after
:43:44. > :43:49.the Oslo peace accords between Israel and the Palestinians. But
:43:49. > :43:54.neither she nor he, unlike their parents, has ever spoken to an
:43:54. > :44:00.Israeli, just think, she's older than the average Gazan, who is only
:44:00. > :44:06.TRANSLATION: I haven't lived long enough to know what will happen in
:44:06. > :44:12.the future. All I know is we are born into war, we live in war and
:44:12. > :44:19.we will die in war. Mohammed's vision of peace is
:44:19. > :44:24.narrow, all it means to him is escaping this underground hell.
:44:24. > :44:29.TRANSLATION: I hope the gates will open, and the tunnels will close,
:44:29. > :44:35.and there will be jobs so we can leave this kind of work. Everyone
:44:36. > :44:42.will be able to do whatever they want, but, as you see, nothing has
:44:42. > :44:48.changed. We haven't gained our victory yet.
:44:48. > :44:54.Gaza, as he says, is a place that can only live from day-to-day. With
:44:54. > :45:00.no light yet at the end of the tunnel.
:45:00. > :45:06.Tomorrow morning's front pages now. Many of them like the Telegraph are
:45:06. > :45:16.dominated by the photograph of the husband and daughter of the nurse
:45:16. > :45:29.
:45:29. > :45:33.who apparently killed herself after That's it, excitement in the bird
:45:33. > :45:38.watching world, flocks of wax-wings about everywhere, seen from
:45:38. > :45:46.Lichfield to Lothian, they are like a small brown par the question,
:45:46. > :45:52.with red blobs like ceiling wax on their wings. They are visiting from
:45:52. > :46:02.points north. If there is an old wives tale, that lots of sightings
:46:02. > :46:23.
:46:23. > :46:26.means a hard winter to come, it is rubbish, they are just hungry.
:46:26. > :46:32.# He'll say are you married # We'll say no man
:46:32. > :46:35.# But you can do the job when you're in town
:46:35. > :46:38.Hello, very cold tonight, a widespread frost, there will be
:46:38. > :46:42.icey patches in the morning, across eastern England, fog patches
:46:42. > :46:46.further west, and some of those will linger all day. Most places
:46:46. > :46:49.should brighten up nicely, see some sunshine, it will be a colder day
:46:49. > :46:53.than today. Down the eastern side of England, the wind not as strong
:46:53. > :46:58.as today. There should be more sunshine, fewer showers. Watch out
:46:58. > :47:03.for icey patches in the morning. A dusting of snow in one twor places.
:47:03. > :47:08.Further west some sun -- two places. Further west fog lingering all day.
:47:08. > :47:12.The like of the West Country, Somerset level, up across Worcester,
:47:12. > :47:16.the West Midlands and the Welsh marshes, together with parts of
:47:16. > :47:20.North West England, and around Cheshire. Northern Ireland should
:47:20. > :47:24.have sunshine, after some early patchy fog here. A similar story
:47:24. > :47:28.across Scotland, a cold, crisp winter's day sunshine for the most
:47:28. > :47:31.part T will feel cold. Temperatures tomorrow lower than today. It
:47:31. > :47:35.doesn't get much warmer on Wednesday either. Notice fog there,
:47:35. > :47:39.around Manchester still, on Tuesday. And it could be a bit of a problem
:47:39. > :47:43.on Wednesday as well. We have to find more fog, more freezing fog
:47:43. > :47:46.developing, again, very quickly on Tuesday evening. Tuesday neat, and