:00:14. > :00:17.More than �2 million, for a man forced on to a plane, imprisoned in
:00:17. > :00:24.Libya, and claims he was tortured. Has the Government payout done
:00:24. > :00:27.enough to save the reputation of the Secret Intelligence Service?
:00:27. > :00:32.MI6 might want to move on, but it is hardly going to end there.
:00:32. > :00:37.Others are suing, and the service will face police and judicial
:00:37. > :00:40.inquiries into Hirst its conduct. An end of term report on free
:00:40. > :00:45.schools, it was the Education Secretary's big idea, have the new
:00:45. > :00:49.kids delivered, and what does the competition think? I think they
:00:49. > :00:54.feel we are a threat, and they are worried about the competition. I
:00:54. > :00:59.think they find that, for them, it is a challenge.
:00:59. > :01:02.Is it healthy or unhealthy competition? We will be debating
:01:02. > :01:06.that. After cleaners dropped letters on
:01:06. > :01:10.to the minister's desk at the Department of Work and Pensions,
:01:10. > :01:13.they are to get pay rise to the living wage. Can anyone other than
:01:13. > :01:19.the public sector and big companies afford to pay it. Two small
:01:19. > :01:29.business owners here, one who pays the living wage, and another would
:01:29. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:38.Good evening, it is a lot of money for the Government to pay up in
:01:38. > :01:41.case where they have not admitted any liability. Sami Al-Saadi, an
:01:41. > :01:45.opponent of the late Colonel Gaddafi, said the Government were
:01:45. > :01:50.involved in rendition for him in 2004, along with his family, where
:01:50. > :01:57.he says he was tortured. He may remember last year that William
:01:57. > :02:03.Hague said accusation that is MI5 and MI6 had colluded in the ill-
:02:03. > :02:09.treatment of detainees. The apparent abduction happened when
:02:09. > :02:15.Tony Blair was engaged in an entente cordiale with Colonel
:02:15. > :02:19.Gaddafi. Britain's relations with Libya have
:02:19. > :02:26.gone from good to bad and back again. And done so more than once.
:02:26. > :02:34.People were bound to get caught out in that ebb and flow, and in 2011,
:02:34. > :02:38.it went sour for MI6. Documents detailing their co-operation with
:02:38. > :02:47.Libyan intelligence, were recovered from an HQ, as revolutionary
:02:47. > :02:56.sources feesed Tripoli. Wn told the tale of a Libyan Islamist militant
:02:56. > :03:02.called Abu Munthir. This was a none deGurerre for Sami Al-Saadi. He was
:03:02. > :03:07.detained on a rendition flight. When I arrived to the aircraft door,
:03:07. > :03:11.they handcuffed me and my wife. 2004, Mr Al-Saadi and his family
:03:11. > :03:15.had gone to Hong Kong, he says he was lured there, only to be
:03:15. > :03:19.detained on passport violations. British intelligence officers
:03:19. > :03:24.contacted the Libyan authorities to tell them that the Al-Saadi family
:03:24. > :03:29.were in detention and might be transferred to Libya. A Libyan
:03:29. > :03:31.aircraft was dispatched as far as the Maldives, before it became
:03:31. > :03:35.apparent that the Hong Kong authorities wouldn't allow it to
:03:35. > :03:40.land. The CIA stepped in, offering to charter a plane to deliver the
:03:40. > :03:44.detainee, but said that any help was contingent that Abu Munthir and
:03:44. > :03:50.his family, will be treated humanely. Eventually the means were
:03:50. > :03:56.found to get them to Libya, where he remained in jail for more than
:03:56. > :04:02.five years. British intelligence officers visited him there.
:04:02. > :04:08.British team, two people, one lady and one man. They came to see me.
:04:08. > :04:12.Did you tell them you were being tortured? I couldn't, because I was
:04:13. > :04:17.being tortured again. I can't say what I want.
:04:17. > :04:24.At the time of Sami Al-Saadi's rendition, Britain and Libya had
:04:24. > :04:28.become friends again. After paying out compensation to the victims of
:04:28. > :04:33.Lockerbie, Colonel Gaddafi welcomed Tony Blair to his country. Trade
:04:33. > :04:37.deals were done, and so were favours granted in the intelligence
:04:37. > :04:43.business. A second leading member of the militant Libyan Jihadist
:04:43. > :04:48.underground, Abdel Hakin Belhaj, was also bundled on a plane, and is
:04:48. > :04:55.now seeking compensation. We wanted the British Government to apologise
:04:55. > :05:01.for what it did against us. And for the injustice against us and the
:05:01. > :05:06.mistakes made against us. Especially from the British
:05:06. > :05:10.Intelligence Services. The Foreign Secretary at the time has, in the
:05:10. > :05:14.past, denied authorising the Libyan renditions. Not only did we not
:05:14. > :05:19.agree with it, we were not complicit in it, nor did we turn a
:05:19. > :05:22.blind eye to it. No Foreign Secretary can know all the details
:05:23. > :05:27.of what its intelligence agencies are doing at any one time. However,
:05:27. > :05:31.sources in Whitehall have stressed that the transfers of Mr Al-Saadi
:05:31. > :05:41.and Belhaj, were signed off, by political masters. Today Mr Straw
:05:41. > :05:45.
:05:45. > :05:50.Where does it end? The management of MI6 has been anxious to contain
:05:50. > :05:59.the reputational damage from these Libyan cases, and avoid revealing
:05:59. > :06:02.battles in UK courts. The Libyans - - Libyans' lawyers in this country
:06:02. > :06:05.insist that shouldn't be the end of it. We need an inquiry into this
:06:05. > :06:09.case, the Metropolitan Police are carrying on a criminal decision,
:06:09. > :06:14.which goes right to the highest level of ministers, about
:06:14. > :06:19.complicity in these potential crimes. That's the first step. But
:06:19. > :06:24.then we really do need to know, both in this case, and generally,
:06:24. > :06:30.if it was just what happened under the Blair regime, and in the
:06:31. > :06:34.alliance with Bush, then, we need to know that too. Sami Al-Saadi has
:06:34. > :06:40.said he accepted �2 million to prevent further suffering for his
:06:40. > :06:44.family, and to fund their education. The British Government has learnt
:06:44. > :06:48.its lessons from this saga too. There are plenty in the
:06:48. > :06:51.intelligence business who argue that MI6 may now follow the law so
:06:51. > :06:54.closely, that its ability to co- operate with others has been
:06:54. > :06:57.undermined. First of all, you talked about, as
:06:58. > :07:02.it were, staunching the reputational damage of MI6, will
:07:02. > :07:06.this be enough? I think that's been the aspiration of their management
:07:06. > :07:09.for some time. But people who were involved in the secret aspects of
:07:09. > :07:12.these cases know, that they are going to be under scrutiny,
:07:13. > :07:17.possibly for years to come, from the police investigation and also
:07:17. > :07:22.there is a judicial inquiry under way. Now, as far as I can tell,
:07:22. > :07:26.they seem to think that they might well be vindicated by those
:07:26. > :07:30.inquiries, they feel they acted within the law at the time, and
:07:30. > :07:34.therefore, they regard today's payout as not a particularly
:07:34. > :07:39.positive or good thing, because it appears to cast doubt about the
:07:39. > :07:42.behaviour that they saw as being quite legitimate. They now feel
:07:42. > :07:47.compromised. �2.2 million of public money being handed out is quite a
:07:47. > :07:50.lot of money. Do you think that this, for the Government at the
:07:50. > :07:53.moment, this is the least worst option? The problem is things have
:07:53. > :07:56.got tangled up, there is the Justice and Security Bill, being
:07:57. > :08:00.debated at the moment. It is deeply politically controversial. Some
:08:00. > :08:05.people in the secret world had been hoping that if this went through,
:08:05. > :08:09.this would be safeguards against full disclosure, in civil cases,
:08:09. > :08:14.and there would be other safeguards in criminal case, that would
:08:14. > :08:18.prevent them having to reveal everything that plaintiffs might
:08:18. > :08:23.want in some of these cases. There is a feeling that perhaps they
:08:23. > :08:27.settled on this one, because they didn't want to have to contest this
:08:27. > :08:30.case under existing rules. Because they have come a cropper before?
:08:30. > :08:36.They have had to settle before. Thank you very much, with me is Ben
:08:36. > :08:42.Emmerson QC, a human rights bars te, and the UN special raptor on human
:08:42. > :08:46.rights and counter terrorism. Let's be clear the Government has
:08:46. > :08:53.made no admission of liability on this one? That is absolutely right,
:08:53. > :08:56.one needs to approach these things with caution and an open mind. What
:08:56. > :09:01.your viewers will recall is in January last year, the inquiry set
:09:01. > :09:06.up by David Cameron, under the chairmanship of Sir Peter Gibson,
:09:06. > :09:09.was wound up precisely because of these two cases. Mr Belhaj's case
:09:09. > :09:13.and Mr Al-Saadi's case, while police investigations continued.
:09:13. > :09:18.The results of those investigations are not yet known. What we do know
:09:18. > :09:25.is that two key documents that were found amongst the office in the
:09:25. > :09:29.office of Mussa Kussa, following the fall of Tripoli, are the
:09:29. > :09:33.smoking guns. When one sees the documents, and they are very, very
:09:33. > :09:39.specific, they are some what more than smoking guns, they are a gun
:09:39. > :09:46.with two smoking barrels. One is the memorandum from Sir Mark Alan,
:09:46. > :09:50.then head of MI6's counter terrorism department, to Moussa
:09:50. > :09:56.Kussa, formally acknowledging that he was responsible for the
:09:56. > :10:02.rendition of Mr Belhaj. And decribing him as "air-cargo", the
:10:02. > :10:05.other was the United States cable to the same effect in Mr Al-Saadi's
:10:05. > :10:08.case. Do you think this is keeping all the intelligence out of court,
:10:09. > :10:13.as Mark says? There is no question of that happening in this case. In
:10:13. > :10:15.January, when Ken Clarke, the Justice Secretary, wound up the
:10:15. > :10:19.Gibson Inquiry, he announced once the cases had been fully
:10:19. > :10:24.investigated by the police, there would be a further judicial inquiry
:10:24. > :10:28.into these cases. Are you disappointed that Mr Al-Saadi is
:10:28. > :10:32.settled? No, I understand exactly why he has been settled, and I have
:10:32. > :10:37.been in close consultation with his lawyers. I'm due to report on this
:10:37. > :10:41.and other cases to the human rights council in March. Mr Al-Saadi had
:10:41. > :10:45.four children, my understanding is that the offer that the UK
:10:45. > :10:51.Government made was its first offer, that is the first point. It was an
:10:52. > :10:55.awful of �2.2 million, first of all, secondly, it was an awful that it
:10:55. > :11:00.was intended to xen -- an offer that was intended to compensate him
:11:00. > :11:03.and his family. Had he chosen to fight on, it was clear to him and
:11:03. > :11:07.made clear to him that the compensation to his children would
:11:07. > :11:13.not be paid. Now we are in a situation where Mr Belhaj will not
:11:13. > :11:17.settle? Mr Belhaj has made it absolutely clear that he intends to
:11:17. > :11:19.continue to a final decision. Can I say this h this isn't just about
:11:20. > :11:27.money, this isn't just about individual actions against the
:11:27. > :11:32.Government, or the reputation of MI6. But they may be vindicated?
:11:32. > :11:36.don't think there is any doubt that there was British and US Government
:11:36. > :11:39.involvement in the transfer of these two men to Libya. Nor any
:11:39. > :11:43.doubt that they were tortured during the course of their
:11:43. > :11:48.detention in Libya. What the consequences of that are remain now
:11:48. > :11:53.to be seen. You are pulling together all this for your report
:11:53. > :11:56.in Geneva in March. But actually, it doesn't have any clout, does it,
:11:57. > :12:06.in terms of US and British politicians? The position is this,
:12:06. > :12:10.for a decade now, the crimes committed by the Bush era CIA and
:12:10. > :12:15.the proxies in Europe, have gone -- proxys in Europe, have gone
:12:15. > :12:19.shielded by the Government's in Europe. Now, just as we speak today,
:12:19. > :12:23.that dam is beginning to crack. What happens next? What happens
:12:23. > :12:26.today, apart from this case, is a decision of the European Court of
:12:26. > :12:33.Human Rights, finding that Macedonia was responsible for rend
:12:33. > :12:43.diction and, indeed, that the CI -- rendition, and indeed, the CIA
:12:43. > :12:46.
:12:46. > :12:52.inserted a truncheon into the anus of a man called Al-Masseri and they
:12:52. > :12:56.have said that Macedonia was responsible there. There are cases
:12:56. > :13:00.since Poland and Romania. Although the UK is not involved in any of
:13:00. > :13:04.those, what is clear is the web of interaction between those states is
:13:04. > :13:09.finally becoming under the light of public accountability. Thank you
:13:09. > :13:14.very much indeed. Like Chairman Mao moo, we have
:13:14. > :13:18.embarked on a long -- Chairman Mao, we have embarked on a long March to
:13:18. > :13:25.improve our schools system. It is two years since Michael Gove set
:13:25. > :13:28.off on the March, and the free school systems has started, 79
:13:28. > :13:33.opened and more to come. What is the impact on the children who
:13:33. > :13:41.attend, the performance of the school, and the wider college of
:13:41. > :13:44.schools. This is an end of term report.
:13:44. > :13:50.Earlier this year Paul and Debbie Edwards made a difficult decision,
:13:50. > :13:53.they took their 12-year-old daughter Rebecca, out of an
:13:53. > :13:58.established local secondary school, where she had settled in, and put
:13:58. > :14:01.her in a brand new free school near their home in Cheshire. I really,
:14:01. > :14:05.really didn't want to come of the I wouldn't even touch the blazer or
:14:05. > :14:10.anything, I didn't want to come. I didn't want to leave all my new
:14:10. > :14:14.friends in the other school. after a term in the new school,
:14:14. > :14:19.she's happy. Mum and dad persuaded me and said it was best for me. It
:14:19. > :14:28.is like going to another home. It is nothing to be worried about.
:14:29. > :14:33.far, there are just 38 pupils in Sandymoor School in Runcorn. That's
:14:33. > :14:38.up from 19 at the start of term, and the headteacher says it is in
:14:38. > :14:43.line with his plans. 21 of them are, like Rebecca, in year eight, they
:14:43. > :14:48.have left other local secondary schools. There is a small amount of
:14:48. > :14:51.people in each class, so it's like more one-to-one, and more help, and
:14:51. > :14:54.the teachers make the lessons really good. They are really
:14:54. > :14:58.friendly. And they don't treat you like children, they treat you like
:14:58. > :15:02.adults, and if you respect them they will respect you back. For now,
:15:02. > :15:05.the school is in temporary classrooms, thanks to capital
:15:05. > :15:11.funding from the Department for Education, they should have a new
:15:11. > :15:15.building here, in this adjoining field, by 2014, with room, they say,
:15:15. > :15:23.for 900 children. It was a very hard decision, because it was just
:15:23. > :15:27.an open field, it was absolutely a brand-new school, no Ofsted reports,
:15:27. > :15:31.em. It was moving her away from her friends, she had settled into the
:15:31. > :15:37.school she was in. It was a hard decision, but you have to do what's
:15:37. > :15:42.best for your kids, you think. According to the Government, free
:15:42. > :15:45.schools are set up in response to local demand, to improve education
:15:45. > :15:52.for children in a community. They are competition for established
:15:52. > :15:57.schools. What is your relationship like with the other local secondary
:15:58. > :16:05.schools? Hmmph. Em, formal and professional. I think that they
:16:05. > :16:09.feel we are a threat, I think they are worried about that competition.
:16:09. > :16:12.I think they find that, for them, it is a challenge. For me it is
:16:12. > :16:17.more about collaboration, it is more about how we can work together,
:16:17. > :16:21.it is about young people, not small politics. The income of all schools
:16:22. > :16:27.depends on how many pupils they have. They get funding directly
:16:27. > :16:31.from the Department for Education, around �5,000 per head per year, in
:16:31. > :16:34.this local authority, Halton. Here in Halton there is currently a
:16:35. > :16:41.surplus of secondary school places, that is the way the free school
:16:41. > :16:45.policy was intended to work. Partly by creating new kinds of schools,
:16:45. > :16:50.partly by introducing real choice for parents, real competition
:16:50. > :16:57.between schools. So pushing them to raise their standards. So, what
:16:57. > :17:02.impact is the new free school having on other schools here?
:17:02. > :17:07.going to burn some magnesium powder and compare rates of reaction.
:17:07. > :17:13.miles from Sandymoor is The Heath, an outstanding school, according to
:17:13. > :17:16.Ofsted, it is a big school, 250 pupils per year. They are moving
:17:16. > :17:20.with the times, they have become an academy and starting their own
:17:20. > :17:24.sixth form. The free school is not a threat to them, they say. As far
:17:24. > :17:28.as The Heath goes, we are far from the free school, we are our ethos
:17:28. > :17:32.and aims, I wouldn't be worried about it. I think we work really
:17:32. > :17:36.well in collaboration with other schools. I can't comment how other
:17:36. > :17:40.heads feel, I know there are surplus places in Runcorn schools
:17:40. > :17:44.at the moment. That is a problem for schools? It could be a problem
:17:44. > :17:47.for some schools. Two schools are most likely to be affected by the
:17:48. > :17:53.free school, both with GCSE results below average. Neither was
:17:53. > :17:57.available to talk to us. The local authority says if the free school
:17:57. > :18:03.does expand, as planned, then other schools might have to cut teaching
:18:03. > :18:07.posts and subjects. What I'm interested in is the impact on
:18:07. > :18:10.other schools, we want every school in Halton to be a success. We also
:18:10. > :18:14.have a responsibility for the pupils attending our schools today,
:18:14. > :18:18.that their future education isn't threatened by their school not
:18:18. > :18:23.being viable, or a large number of surplus placess, or money being
:18:23. > :18:28.removed from their budgets, which otherwise would have gone to them.
:18:28. > :18:38.Across the River Mersey, and to the north, lies the authority of
:18:38. > :18:42.knowsly, while Halton's -- Knoosley, while Halton's results were the
:18:42. > :18:46.highest in the area, their's are the lowest. The Government is
:18:46. > :18:52.trying to get local people to support the idea of a free school.
:18:52. > :18:55.That is how free school ideas are brought into being, there is no
:18:55. > :19:00.central planning. Some parents believe schools should
:19:00. > :19:05.improve by working more closely together, rather than by competing.
:19:05. > :19:09.Stuart, on the piano, and Logan, on the violin, go to a North London
:19:09. > :19:13.primary school that was forced to become an academy. Now, out of
:19:13. > :19:18.local authority control, it is part of the Harris Federation. Their
:19:19. > :19:22.mother, opposes free schools? want all children to have a good
:19:22. > :19:25.education at their local school, now that some parents can form a
:19:26. > :19:35.group and decide we're going to have this type of school for our
:19:35. > :19:39.children. It is unfair. Schools in London have improved, thanks to the
:19:39. > :19:44.London challenge programme, where schools, and local authorities work
:19:44. > :19:49.together. It is not terrible, the education system here, it is not,
:19:49. > :19:55.it is actually a success story. The secondary schools in London are a
:19:55. > :19:58.massive success story, and the primaries aren't terrible.
:19:59. > :20:07.Harris Federation say they run a family of schools, which support
:20:07. > :20:11.each other to improve. London's population is growing, approaching
:20:11. > :20:16.its record high. London councils estimate they will need 90,000
:20:16. > :20:20.extra school places within the next four years. So free schools in the
:20:20. > :20:30.capital are less about providing parental choice, and competition
:20:30. > :20:32.
:20:32. > :20:36.between schools, and more about satisfying basic need.
:20:36. > :20:40.This new free school in Enfield, down the road from the Williams
:20:41. > :20:49.family, was so oversubscribed, they ended up taking two reception
:20:49. > :20:54.classes instead of one. To Rachel Wolf, who helped make free schools
:20:54. > :20:59.a reality, it is a sign that the policy works. But although nearly
:20:59. > :21:04.200 free schools have been approved, or opened, there are around 23,000
:21:04. > :21:07.schools in England. She believes there must be more to make a bigger
:21:07. > :21:10.impact. What we would really like to see going forward, is to
:21:10. > :21:15.increase the flexibility of the programme. Particularly around
:21:15. > :21:18.sites and Prom sis, which remains the big -- premises, which remains
:21:18. > :21:22.the biggest challenge for groups across the country when opening a
:21:22. > :21:27.school. If they could increase the flexibility in allocated capital
:21:27. > :21:31.funding, you will see even more free schools coming forward.
:21:31. > :21:37.Not all free schools have been successful. Two failed to open this
:21:37. > :21:41.year, they hadn't enroled enough pupils. Others are not yet full.
:21:41. > :21:46.Many have had difficulty finding sites. If there is urgent need,
:21:46. > :21:50.local authorities sometimes support free schools, it is often the
:21:50. > :21:54.easiest, quickest, cheapest way to get extra school place. But they
:21:54. > :21:58.don't want to see them in areas where there is a surplus already.
:21:58. > :22:04.What we would like to see is Government aproving free schools,
:22:04. > :22:06.primarily where that will meet the basic need in the local area. And
:22:06. > :22:11.secondly, where it creates surplus places to add competition in into
:22:11. > :22:14.the community of local schools. Where there is such a desperate
:22:14. > :22:18.shortage of school place, in London and the south-east of England and
:22:18. > :22:22.across cities in the UK, we should be spending the money there first,
:22:22. > :22:29.and locking at those areas where there is already maybe -- looking
:22:29. > :22:33.at those areas where there is already 20% surplus places in the
:22:33. > :22:38.free school systems afterwards. Government gave the free school
:22:38. > :22:41.policy a boost this month, by promising money for 100 more. The
:22:41. > :22:44.Department for Education told us they would be in areas where there
:22:44. > :22:48.is the greatest pressure for school place, and that the majority of
:22:48. > :22:58.free schools were in areas of basic need. They said they had no plans
:22:58. > :23:01.to review the schools approved to open next year and beyond.
:23:01. > :23:05.We did ask for a Government minister to appear on the programme,
:23:05. > :23:11.to discuss their flagship free schools policy, none was available.
:23:11. > :23:17.With me are the headteacher of the Bedford Free School, and parent and
:23:17. > :23:22.former teacher, who is trying to open a new free school in Oxford,
:23:22. > :23:27.Lucy Rhys a parent governor from Camden, where the schools have the
:23:27. > :23:31.best Ofsteds in the country. And the headteacher of the West Bridge
:23:31. > :23:34.Ford School. In your free school, what does it have that other free
:23:34. > :23:38.schools have? We have deliberately gone out of our way to offer
:23:38. > :23:43.something different to local parents. We are a secondary school
:23:43. > :23:46.in an area with middle and upper schools for children. We are
:23:46. > :23:52.smaller. It is not about competition? It is about giving
:23:52. > :23:54.parents and students more choice and diversity. You heard Andrew
:23:54. > :23:57.Green-Howard saying he has a professional relationship with the
:23:57. > :24:03.local authority school, but he is seen as a threat? I don't see it
:24:03. > :24:06.like that. Only this morning I was in the secondary school Heads'
:24:06. > :24:10.meeting, we are working together like any other schools in the
:24:10. > :24:14.family of schools. We are collaborating over things we have a
:24:14. > :24:17.common interest in. That is always what has been done. People can
:24:17. > :24:22.worry about new schools, but the evidence is that we are all getting
:24:22. > :24:27.in there and getting stuck in like everybody else. From your point of
:24:27. > :24:31.view, presume blie it is about choice, if it is all about choice -
:24:31. > :24:34.- -- presumably it is about choice, and if it is all about choice, you
:24:34. > :24:37.might not have the right provision? I don't think there is a
:24:37. > :24:41.headteacher in the country that would want children to have to
:24:41. > :24:44.select their school because they have no choice, and they have to.
:24:44. > :24:48.That is the case for a lot of people at the moment? There is the
:24:48. > :24:53.case for the free schools, and we would have to welcome free schools
:24:53. > :24:57.into the education system, if they provide choice for parents,
:24:57. > :25:03.particularly where there is need and there aren't enough secondary
:25:03. > :25:08.school places. That, for me, the free school, would be a positive
:25:08. > :25:11.outcome of the agenda. In your own area, you have good reports, there
:25:11. > :25:18.is sufficient provision, and so you don't want free schools in your
:25:18. > :25:21.area? As I say, I don't mind, and I don't object to choice. In my
:25:21. > :25:25.particular circumstances, there are actually 12 secondary schools
:25:25. > :25:28.within a three-mile radius, we are an outstanding school, and we are
:25:28. > :25:32.confident that parents will still want to send their children to us.
:25:32. > :25:37.Where you don't have a need for pupil places, and where there isn't
:25:37. > :25:41.an issue to do with standards, is that the right place for a free
:25:41. > :25:44.school. So basically what you are saying is you should only have free
:25:44. > :25:47.school where there is a problem with the provision that exists at
:25:48. > :25:52.the moment, you shouldn't have a free school where you have a school
:25:52. > :25:56.like your's, doing well in Ofsted reports and whatever. It is not
:25:56. > :25:59.necessarily about choice, it is about filling a gap? Well, as I'm
:25:59. > :26:05.saying, I think there is plenty of choice, certainly in our area
:26:05. > :26:09.already. But I'm really reflecting the DEFT criteria when they are
:26:09. > :26:12.looking at free school, they do focus on is there enough school
:26:12. > :26:15.provision in the area, and what is the standard of the local schools
:26:16. > :26:21.in the area. You are trying to open a school, you have had one bash at
:26:22. > :26:25.it so far. Why are you so desperate to have a free school? We're in
:26:25. > :26:31.Oxford and there is a compelling need for more school places. By
:26:31. > :26:35.2014, when we plan to open, there will be 200 places too few in the
:26:35. > :26:42.system. There is a genuine and statistical need for more places,
:26:42. > :26:45.we are asking -- answering a need in the city and improving the
:26:45. > :26:51.outcome for the kids. You are a teacher and very well best placed
:26:51. > :26:54.to know what to do about creating a free school, are you saying that
:26:54. > :26:59.actually rather than improve the local authority provision, you need
:26:59. > :27:02.a free school to, in a sense, to up their provision, is it about that.
:27:02. > :27:07.Is it about driving everybody upwartds? We have been careful not
:27:07. > :27:10.to use the word "choice" or "competition", we don't think it is
:27:10. > :27:13.about choice but good local schools for everybody. There is a need for
:27:13. > :27:16.more schools in the city, the schools in the city are trying to
:27:16. > :27:20.improve, and there is good teachers trying to improve their schools. I
:27:20. > :27:23.wish them well in doing. That we are not in competition with them.
:27:23. > :27:27.There is scope, they recognise this, to improve what they are doing,
:27:27. > :27:31.they recognise the challenge. is the case that is thrs not enough
:27:31. > :27:34.provision, that is why you -- there is not enough provision, that is
:27:34. > :27:38.why you can start a free school, but it is an issue with the kind of
:27:38. > :27:42.provision? We are answering both of those issues, there are free
:27:42. > :27:46.schools where they are not, one of the unfortunate things is there is
:27:46. > :27:50.an opportunity with this policy, and the academy programme, to
:27:50. > :27:55.increase the amount of innovation in the system, there should be more.
:27:55. > :27:58.Therefore, surely what you want to do in Oxford is what you should
:27:58. > :28:01.support? I don't support it. It is not needed. My children go to
:28:01. > :28:05.schools in Camden, a recent Ofsted report said that children who live
:28:05. > :28:08.in Camden have the best chance in the whole of Britain to go to a
:28:08. > :28:12.good or outstanding school, our schools are controlled by the local
:28:12. > :28:17.authority who do a brilliant job. What I think, this gentleman...What
:28:17. > :28:21.Happens when you are in schools in areas where, as was said, the
:28:21. > :28:24.provision is neither sufficient to the need, or indeed, as far as he's
:28:24. > :28:27.concerned, challenging enough? Government has decided that the
:28:27. > :28:30.only new schools it is going to build are free schools and
:28:30. > :28:33.academies, that is a policy. There is no reason why money couldn't be
:28:33. > :28:37.given to his local authority, the Government has decided against that.
:28:37. > :28:40.That is a political and ideolgical decision. It is really interesting,
:28:40. > :28:43.everyone wants their children and the children in the local area to
:28:43. > :28:47.go to really good local schools, no-one is arguing against that. The
:28:47. > :28:51.key thing for me is, who are the people best placed to decide what
:28:51. > :28:55.is the right kind of school for their child? Experts? I think you
:28:55. > :28:58.should come to talk to the nearly 200 set of familiar a parents who
:28:58. > :29:02.sent their children to our school. I think the idea that other people
:29:02. > :29:07.know better than them what is right for their child, they might find a
:29:07. > :29:10.little bit patronising. I have just had such good experiences of the
:29:10. > :29:14.people who run my local school. My children go to, I have two children
:29:14. > :29:17.in the school system, one is too young for school, basically,
:29:17. > :29:21.particularly the older child, the school is fantastic, they work very
:29:21. > :29:24.closely, one of the things I like particularly about the way it
:29:24. > :29:28.operates, it offers a joined-up service. If your child needs extra
:29:28. > :29:30.service, it gets it and joins up with other agencies. Maybe a free
:29:30. > :29:36.school could do that. But there is a co-ordinated approach to
:29:36. > :29:39.education that I like. Listening to this from your perspective here,
:29:40. > :29:44.what we seem to be saying, certainly from this point of view,
:29:44. > :29:47.is actually people are losing faith in local authorities to make the
:29:47. > :29:49.best provision for the children, not necessarily in Camden, that is
:29:49. > :29:52.what you are saying. Not necessarily in your school. But do
:29:52. > :29:58.you accept that some people actually do not trust the local
:29:58. > :30:00.authority to be the best provider? Yes, I'm sure there are examples of
:30:00. > :30:07.that around the country, where local authorities have failed local
:30:07. > :30:10.parents for many, many years. I would emphasise the point with free
:30:11. > :30:14.schools, they can work and be very successful, where there is a lack
:30:14. > :30:18.of school place provision in the area. Or that schools themselves in
:30:18. > :30:22.those areas have been failing parents for some time. Where you do
:30:22. > :30:25.have very good local schools, providing high-quality education
:30:25. > :30:29.for parents, and where there isn't the need for school places, then
:30:29. > :30:36.actually they can have a destablising effect on those
:30:36. > :30:41.excellent skoolgs. A destablising - - Schools. A destablising effect?
:30:41. > :30:46.No, where we came along there was a balance in the supply of places,
:30:46. > :30:50.and we have created another 100 places per year group. That is
:30:50. > :30:53.undoubtedly having an affect on local schools, as we are adjusting.
:30:53. > :30:58.It might have a detrimental effect, it might be that those schools are
:30:58. > :31:02.deemed to fail and the budgets close, that is the market then?
:31:02. > :31:08.some parts of the town the children weren't going to local schools and
:31:08. > :31:12.driving miles to go everywhere else. While we have above the average
:31:12. > :31:17.number of free school meals, they have had those coming from the
:31:17. > :31:21.independent sector, to bring more students into state education, I
:31:21. > :31:23.think that is a fantastic thing. The free schools are doing that.
:31:23. > :31:26.don't think you need the free school, you can support local
:31:26. > :31:31.authorities f a local authority isn't doing well, why can't it be
:31:31. > :31:38.supported, why can't the moneying shared out. We have in Camden, you
:31:38. > :31:41.have heads that will go, our head at Toriano free school is going to
:31:41. > :31:44.another school to help them improve, why not have people working
:31:44. > :31:48.together to help the local authority, I want to see schools
:31:48. > :31:51.sharing. There is generations of attempts to improve the school
:31:51. > :31:54.system, the national strategies did great work, it has hit a wall. I
:31:54. > :31:59.think there is an opportunity for innovation and fresh blood into the
:31:59. > :32:04.system. We need to look at how we can einvolve the school system.
:32:04. > :32:08.Isn't it the case -- Evolve the school system. It is on the fringes
:32:08. > :32:11.and it seems a middle-class endeavour, if free schools are
:32:11. > :32:16.going to provide a proper alternative, there needs to be a
:32:16. > :32:20.critical mass, as Rachel Wolf says, there needs to be more. At the
:32:20. > :32:24.moment we are around about 450,000 school places short, and the free
:32:24. > :32:28.schools will only provide 250,000 of those. Maybe we do need to do
:32:28. > :32:34.more. I think the key thing I want to say is that the structural
:32:34. > :32:37.school does not in any way preclude, innovation, working together. By
:32:37. > :32:41.opening up the system to new groups coming in. Two thirds of new
:32:41. > :32:45.schools being opened are teacher groups like mine. The Government
:32:46. > :32:49.set them up for competition t but you guys are saying where they are
:32:49. > :32:52.is where there is a lack of provision? In our case that is not
:32:52. > :32:56.the case. Our standards at 16 are well below the national average,
:32:56. > :33:02.and what drove us on, three years ago, a group of teachers talking
:33:02. > :33:05.together, the idea that by the time a child has sat their GCSEs they
:33:05. > :33:09.have spent 14,000 hours in the classroom, and I don't know how
:33:09. > :33:13.many tens of thousands of pounds invests in theired education, do we
:33:13. > :33:17.really think that only 55% of our children in our country are capable
:33:17. > :33:23.of reading and writing and adding up. Absolutely not, the teachers
:33:23. > :33:27.are great and schools are great, we need to get closer to every child
:33:27. > :33:31.achieving that. What I see about free schools, you are a passionate
:33:31. > :33:35.educator and a nice guy, what is worrying is business will move in
:33:35. > :33:39.on it. Most parents like myself haven't the time or energy to set
:33:39. > :33:43.up school, but there are lots of big companies out there gag to go
:33:43. > :33:46.get their hand on education budgets. That is my fear about them. That is
:33:46. > :33:49.why decided today get on board. We are worn out people trying to do
:33:50. > :33:53.this t the reason we are doing it is because there is a window at the
:33:53. > :33:58.moment, whether for-profit comes into schools and the academy chains,
:33:58. > :34:02.that are waiting, at the moment we can control the process as parents.
:34:02. > :34:04.Five months ago the cleaning staff of the Department of Work and
:34:04. > :34:09.Pensions left letters on the ministerial desk they cleaned,
:34:09. > :34:14.complaining about their wages. Now, rather than the minimum wage, their
:34:14. > :34:20.demands are to be met, and they will be paid a living wage, that is
:34:20. > :34:24.�7.45 in London, and less outside London. Is this a new kind of
:34:24. > :34:28.bargaining power, directly where it hurts. What if you are not a big
:34:28. > :34:32.public employer or a large company, could your company cope with such
:34:32. > :34:35.demand, and should the minimum wage just go. We will hear from two
:34:35. > :34:39.owners of smaus small business, one who pays a living -- of small
:34:39. > :34:47.business, one who pays a living wage and one that doesn't. What do
:34:47. > :34:50.you want for clis mass? -- Christmas? For these people,
:34:50. > :34:54.campaigning outside the Department for Work and Pensions in London, it
:34:54. > :34:59.is a pay rise, that is what they have done. 450 low-paid catering
:34:59. > :35:05.and cleaning staff, working for the Government's contractors, will,
:35:05. > :35:11.from April 2014, get paid what is known as the living wage.
:35:11. > :35:15.At the moment the national minimum wage for those over 21 is �6.19 an
:35:15. > :35:20.hour, employers have to pay this by law. Over the past few years, a
:35:20. > :35:23.campaign has grown to say this isn't nearly enough to live on.
:35:23. > :35:27.�7.45 is the figure we're told that is required to meet the normal
:35:27. > :35:32.costs of living. It is called the living wage, and it is higher in
:35:32. > :35:37.London, at �8.55 an hour. Although there are clearly tidings
:35:37. > :35:41.of great joy here at the DWP tonight. Let's be clear on what
:35:41. > :35:45.happened, the DWP maintained they didn't make it a condition that the
:35:45. > :35:48.company pay their workers more. And the company says, that they are
:35:48. > :35:52.absorbing the full costs. It is difficult to make the case that
:35:52. > :35:57.this is a profound shift in Government or party policy. No,
:35:57. > :36:00.what we might be witnessing here, though, is a shift in industrial
:36:00. > :36:05.power in Britain, the rise of something like soft industrial
:36:05. > :36:08.power. The living wage campaign gained
:36:08. > :36:18.national prominence over the summer, when Newsnight reported that
:36:18. > :36:22.Government cleaner, Valdimar venture ra, had left a letter on
:36:22. > :36:26.Nick Clegg's desk asking for the living wage.
:36:26. > :36:34.He was moved on, but Nick Clegg has written and asked him to return.
:36:34. > :36:40.This has caused a lot of problems. I didn't sleep in two months. My
:36:40. > :36:44.wages were down, my families as well -- family's as well, I have
:36:44. > :36:48.given a lot of support but it is not easy to pass now. Now I'm very
:36:48. > :36:53.happy, because I know so many politicians give me support.
:36:53. > :36:57.living wage for the UK is calculated by Loughborough
:36:57. > :37:00.University, they take into account such factors as rent, council tax
:37:00. > :37:04.and childcare, what their computer spits out is lots of different
:37:05. > :37:10.living wages. Ranging from �6 an hour for someone in a child less
:37:10. > :37:13.couple, to a whopping �18.57 for a lone parent with three children.
:37:13. > :37:16.These individual living wages are then weighted by how common that
:37:16. > :37:21.group is in the population as a whole, to come up with one national
:37:21. > :37:25.figure. The politicians do seem to be
:37:25. > :37:27.getting on board the idea of a living wage, from Boris Johnson in
:37:27. > :37:32.London, Nick Clegg and David Cameron in Government, and Ed
:37:32. > :37:37.Miliband in opposition. He says a Labour Government would name and
:37:37. > :37:40.shame big companies, who don't pay the living wage. In Scotland too,
:37:40. > :37:45.the Scottish Government and many local authorities are now committed
:37:45. > :37:53.to paying it. Obviously increasing the lowest rate of pay in the
:37:53. > :37:57.council to �7.50 an hour, living rate, does come at a cost. But we
:37:57. > :38:01.have looked at the figures carefully, we can afford it. As I
:38:01. > :38:06.believe it will not just benefit the employees who receive the extra
:38:06. > :38:10.money per hour, it will benefit the local economy. While there might be
:38:10. > :38:12.a small cost to implement it, the greater good for Edinburgh
:38:12. > :38:17.outweighs that. It will generate income spending into the local
:38:17. > :38:20.economy. The costs for businesses vary.
:38:20. > :38:25.According to research from the Resolution Foundation, the living
:38:25. > :38:31.wage would add considerably to some sectors. For example, bars and
:38:31. > :38:37.restaurant, rising 6.2%, general retailers 4.9%, and food and drug
:38:37. > :38:43.retailers 4.7%. There is less of an impact on other sectors, banks
:38:43. > :38:48.least hit, a living wage would odd 0.2 to their costs. Robert runs a
:38:48. > :38:51.string of care homes in Scotland, local authorities are his biggest
:38:51. > :38:55.customer, it supports the living wage in principle, but worries who
:38:55. > :39:03.will meet the cost. At a time when we are all struggling, and in my
:39:03. > :39:08.view, councils are struggling as well. It is really such a poor and
:39:08. > :39:12.bad time n my view, it doesn't make any sense at all to be introducing
:39:12. > :39:17.it at this current time. Having it as an aspiration, and a goal we
:39:17. > :39:21.should all be looking to get to, in four or five years time or
:39:21. > :39:26.something, and work out a way of trying to get there, then fine, I'm
:39:26. > :39:30.all for that. To force us to do it when we have nowhere to go.
:39:30. > :39:33.Meanwhile, at the BWP, the campaigners are sending a thank you
:39:33. > :39:37.to the minister. The impact of moving from the minimum to the
:39:37. > :39:41.living wage is clearly huge for individuals, it is less clear what
:39:41. > :39:47.it means for the economy as a whole, and what it means for tax-payers
:39:47. > :39:54.and consumers, whose own finances are already under pressure. The
:39:54. > :39:57.politics seems to be moving more and more in its favour. Well, Jan
:39:57. > :40:02.Cavell runs her own furniture company in Suffolk, she has 30
:40:02. > :40:08.employees and is against the living wage. Miles Carroll is the chief
:40:08. > :40:12.executive of an on-line payments company in Staffordshire and
:40:12. > :40:15.employs 16 people, he renegotiated with staff to make sure everyone
:40:15. > :40:19.was earning the living wage. You didn't get letters on the table,
:40:19. > :40:23.but what persuaded you? It is always the right time to do the
:40:23. > :40:26.right thing. When we saw the campaign, it really struck us as
:40:26. > :40:30.the appropriate thing to do, so that we could run our business in
:40:30. > :40:34.the best way we can, by attracting the right people, retaining those
:40:34. > :40:40.people, and making sure our customers were well served. You are
:40:40. > :40:44.saying rather than an economic argument, or a moral argument with
:40:44. > :40:47.an economic benefit eventually? made the moral decision first and
:40:47. > :40:53.backed it with good business. is not possible for you, it is not
:40:53. > :41:00.what you want? I would love to be able to pay all my employees as
:41:00. > :41:04.much as possible. You know, it is not a question of it, it is a
:41:05. > :41:10.different type of business entirely. It as different structure. I'm in
:41:10. > :41:15.manufacturing, which is very different, of course, from you. In
:41:15. > :41:22.fact I'm in a very specific part of manufacturing in furniture. We have
:41:22. > :41:26.now direct competitors, we have lots of competition that never
:41:27. > :41:30.quite does the same thing as us. We can't get for some areas, we can't
:41:30. > :41:36.get people to come in ready skilled. You are pay the minimum wage while
:41:36. > :41:40.you train them? Absolutely. You know there isn't, because I have
:41:40. > :41:46.tried, the equivalent on Government apprenticeship schemes. Financially
:41:46. > :41:50.have you said like him that it would benefit you eventually?
:41:50. > :41:54.doesn't for a variety of reasons. We can't get the skill off the
:41:54. > :41:58.street. We have to do the training. You subsidise it for the first two
:41:58. > :42:01.or three years and then they are trained up? What would be your
:42:01. > :42:05.argument to say that she should take the leap and see what happens?
:42:05. > :42:09.I think customers will follow value. We will understand what a business
:42:09. > :42:16.stand for, and they will buy into that. We are all about innovation,
:42:16. > :42:20.qal and excellence. That comes from our people, not from our -- quality
:42:20. > :42:26.and excellence, that comes from our people not business. You use it
:42:26. > :42:32.like a calling card? We have, categorically, in the last four
:42:32. > :42:35.months, won business from promoting that. We promote excellence too, we
:42:35. > :42:39.train our staff to be skilled craftmen, that takes time and going
:42:39. > :42:44.through a process. Interestingly are you concerned about your own
:42:44. > :42:50.staff seeing the power of the living wage and saying here is the
:42:50. > :42:53.minimum wage and a living wage, it doesn't appear an hourly rate to be
:42:53. > :42:58.so different? Starting line, I don't pay on the line of minimum
:42:58. > :43:03.wage. I pay under a starting point of what the living wage would be,
:43:03. > :43:07.depending on what they set it at, there is talk of �8 for next year.
:43:07. > :43:11.What do you feel about big business, particularly, let's leave big
:43:11. > :43:15.business to one side, talk about public, local authorities, who
:43:15. > :43:18.essentially are saying, for example, as they are doing in Edinburgh, we
:43:19. > :43:26.are now going to move to the living wage, but as a taxpayer you helping
:43:26. > :43:29.to pay for that. And you would then, as it,were penalised? I think it is
:43:29. > :43:34.horrendously worrying for small business, like myself, struggling
:43:34. > :43:39.to break even, or not, for the last few years, and we're trying
:43:39. > :43:43.desperately to keep staff in work, those staff have stayed local and
:43:43. > :43:47.on low wages. You get a situation where it is enforced bringing in
:43:47. > :43:55.wages at a higher level. What happens to the staff who have moved
:43:55. > :43:58.up and grafted. If we wanted for newcomers to come in at the same
:43:58. > :44:02.wage. It would be gross. Do you think the days will soon be
:44:02. > :44:05.numbered with the campaign and everybody that responds to it, but
:44:05. > :44:10.you will have both the minimum wage and the living wage? Picking up the
:44:10. > :44:17.point around salies, as a country we are one of the richest countries
:44:17. > :44:21.out there, GDP �36,000 in the UK. We can't do a race to the bottom on
:44:21. > :44:25.salaries against countries like China, with a quarter of our income.
:44:25. > :44:29.Ultimately we have to innovate and change. When we look at our
:44:29. > :44:35.business, operating in niche, exactly as January's business does,
:44:35. > :44:41.my -- Jan's business does and my business dose t proebgttebgts us
:44:41. > :44:44.from that. We have to do -- does protect us from that.
:44:44. > :44:47.Presumably the living wage would help the poor in a trap at the
:44:47. > :44:50.moment? I preerpbt that, of course I do, but -- appreciate that, of
:44:51. > :44:58.course I do, but equally getting the economy going will also help.
:44:58. > :45:04.You know I just find it the most mammoth Government double sync that
:45:04. > :45:08.they ask us to buy into, you know, understanding that it is the age of
:45:08. > :45:12.austerity, because there isn't any money available. Yet they can turn
:45:12. > :45:16.around to businesses who they are asking to rescue them from the
:45:16. > :45:21.whole thing, from this whole thing, and they can say to business, well
:45:21. > :45:31.you may not be able to afford it, but you have to pay out any way.
:45:31. > :45:54.
:45:54. > :45:57.Where is the justice in that. That's all tonight, Jeremy is
:45:57. > :46:07.staying up late tomorrow night, I will be back with review. Join us
:46:07. > :46:33.
:46:33. > :46:37.Good evening, just in time for the weekend, milder weather moving its
:46:38. > :46:41.way into the UK. But for Friday it does come tied up with some very
:46:41. > :46:45.wet and windy conditions as well. Particularly to the south of the UK,
:46:45. > :46:48.some heavy downpours on their way. By the afternoon perhaps some of
:46:48. > :46:50.the heavyist of the rain sitting across northern England, into East
:46:50. > :46:54.Anglia and the south-east. The afternoon should see the rain
:46:54. > :46:59.easing some what, along the south coast, but the morning could be
:46:59. > :47:05.tricky, partly because of high tides and the south-easterly wind
:47:05. > :47:09.direction. There will be a risk of coastal flooding, applying to the
:47:09. > :47:13.Bristol Channel too. Rain in the afternoon, despite that much milder
:47:14. > :47:17.than of late, temperatures in double figures, it will feel chilly
:47:17. > :47:22.in the wet and windy conditions. Northern Ireland in for a wet day,
:47:22. > :47:26.a risk of coastal flooding in south eastern areas. For Scotland a risk
:47:26. > :47:31.of blizzards ayes cross the Grampian, strong wind and some --
:47:31. > :47:41.across the Grampians, strong wind, but the rain not until the late in
:47:41. > :47:45.