:00:15. > :00:20.Tonight, is it time we did something bold and admitted we need
:00:20. > :00:23.a completely new approach to drugs? Whatever Government of any stripe
:00:23. > :00:27.says, nearly three million of us are said to use them. If society
:00:27. > :00:32.really is in war, it is one we are not winning, except, of course, it
:00:32. > :00:38.is not society, but authority is not society, but authority
:00:38. > :00:44.that's waging the war.Le They may be illegal, they may be bad for you.
:00:44. > :00:48.But what about the very many people for whom drug taking is a
:00:48. > :00:53.recreational and social habit. think pretty much every pub and bar
:00:53. > :00:58.I have ever been into, if you look on the cistern of the toilet you
:00:58. > :01:02.will find white crumbs of cocaine. Would decriminalising drugs change
:01:02. > :01:07.behaviour more effectively than trying to pretend the state is on
:01:07. > :01:12.top of the problem. Also tonight, yet another massacre of the
:01:12. > :01:18.innocence in the United States. At least 27 people are killed in a
:01:18. > :01:23.mass shooting at an Elementary School. Our hearts are broken today.
:01:23. > :01:26.For the parents and grandparents, sisters and brothers of these
:01:26. > :01:30.little children, and for the families of the adults who were
:01:30. > :01:34.lost. And some of our most eminent scientists want an official pardon
:01:34. > :01:38.for the great code breaker and mathematician, Alan Turing, who
:01:38. > :01:42.killed himself after being convicted for gross indecency with
:01:42. > :01:52.a man. But what is the point of pardoning a dead man for a crime
:01:52. > :01:54.
:01:54. > :01:58.which no longer exists. The war on drugs, the words are
:01:58. > :02:01.surb such an empty cliche, even if the Vic -- such an empty cliche
:02:01. > :02:05.even if the victims are real enough. Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime
:02:05. > :02:09.Minister, says he wants a Royal Commission to re-think the way
:02:09. > :02:12.drugs policy works. David Cameron has ruled it out. It is not purr
:02:12. > :02:17.surprising that the two men disagree. It is -- surprising that
:02:17. > :02:21.the two men disagree, it is as plain as the nose on your face,
:02:21. > :02:24.that drugs abuse is widespread, and the illegality make as criminal
:02:24. > :02:29.connection and drug habits drive crime. Might it be time for a new
:02:29. > :02:33.approach? # Oh the weather outside is
:02:33. > :02:38.frightful # But the fire is so delightful
:02:38. > :02:46.# And since we've no place to go # Let it snow
:02:46. > :02:50.The equivalent of the factory hooter has just gone off here in
:02:50. > :02:53.the Square Mile, and people are taking to the clubs and pubs and
:02:53. > :02:57.restaurants to toast their bonuses, if any. Will they be celebrating
:02:57. > :03:01.only with the finest wines available to humanity, or might
:03:01. > :03:05.there be other recreational substances available too. Many of
:03:05. > :03:10.them in London take drugs, many of them take cocaine specifically,
:03:10. > :03:15.because you get the buzz of the trading floor, you get, it's
:03:15. > :03:18.glamorous, exclusive, expensive. It is the perfect drug for City boys,
:03:18. > :03:22.many of my colleagues and clients used to indulge. It is really as
:03:22. > :03:28.simple as that. No-one has a crystal ball on this, but the
:03:28. > :03:34.deputy PM says we can't go on as we are. If you were on ducting Anwar
:03:34. > :03:37.in which there were 2,000 fatalities d -- conducting a war in
:03:37. > :03:43.which there were 2,000 fatalties, and your enemy is getting richer
:03:43. > :03:47.all the time, and there are new weapons all the time, there are 40-
:03:47. > :03:51.50 new legal highs everyy, and in which younger and younger children
:03:51. > :03:54.are affected. If that was a war we would immediately say we have to do
:03:54. > :03:59.something differently to wage the war more effectively. Hang on a
:03:59. > :04:04.minute, the most recent figures actually show use of drugs is at
:04:04. > :04:11.its lowest level since 96, use of Class A drugs has fluctuated over
:04:11. > :04:16.this time, but has fallen since 2008. We have seen the gradual use
:04:16. > :04:20.of drugs like cannabis, and to a degree, ecstacy, those have been
:04:21. > :04:26.steadily going down. And I think there is pretty good evidence from
:04:26. > :04:29.the crime survey for England and Wales of that. We have seen, I
:04:29. > :04:34.think, with cocaine and with crack cocaine and with heroin, it has
:04:34. > :04:39.gone down very slightly, it is probably best to say it has
:04:39. > :04:49.plateaued. Cannabis, a class B substance, remains the drug taker's
:04:49. > :04:49.
:04:49. > :04:55.top choice. Followed by Class As cocaine and ecstacy. Next aream
:04:55. > :05:00.mill nitrate, amphetamines and ketamine. Every pub and car I have
:05:00. > :05:04.been into, if you look on the cistern of the toilet you will find
:05:04. > :05:10.white crumbs of coke tain. That doesn't mean pubs populated by
:05:10. > :05:17.plumbers and licenseatricians, or pubs populated by City boys and
:05:17. > :05:22.stock brokers. It is everywhere, it really is. It was a war lost around
:05:22. > :05:28.15 years ago, as far as I'm concerned. Nick Clegg is sending an
:05:28. > :05:34.EMSry from London to investigate drug policies elsewhere. What might
:05:34. > :05:38.his wise man discover. In Portugal they put people through
:05:38. > :05:43.dissituation committees, where they might be put through treatment, and
:05:43. > :05:46.given a smack on the wrist and sent to an education class. In Australia
:05:46. > :05:56.they turn a blind eye and allow a concern amount of cannabis for
:05:56. > :05:57.
:05:57. > :06:03.possession. All of these countries, the important point is, things have
:06:03. > :06:07.not got dramatically worse. That is great, but guess what the PM won't
:06:07. > :06:10.be giving Mr Clegg for Christmas, a Royal Commission on drugs?
:06:10. > :06:14.course the Deputy Prime Minister is entirely entitled to take a view
:06:14. > :06:19.for the next election and beyond for his manifesto, wanting to go
:06:19. > :06:22.further, wanting to have a Royal Commission. I personally don't
:06:22. > :06:26.support a Royal Commission. There is always a danger that they can
:06:26. > :06:28.take minutes and it can last for years. I'm very happy to debate and
:06:29. > :06:31.discuss drug policy, I think the coalition Government has taken a
:06:31. > :06:41.series of good steps. # Let it snow
:06:41. > :06:46.
:06:46. > :06:51.Julia Manning is health campaigner and chief executive of the at this
:06:51. > :07:01.tang 2020 Health. We have a clinical psychologist specialising
:07:01. > :07:02.
:07:02. > :07:06.in drug use. And Elliott is a drug user, what do you use now?
:07:06. > :07:12.injecting morphine. How do you pay for it, we pay for it, the
:07:12. > :07:15.taxpayer? Yes. You can function? function very well, I was a daily
:07:15. > :07:23.heroin user doing my PhD and teaching at university. Are you
:07:23. > :07:28.working now? I'm executive direct of the group about people taking
:07:28. > :07:32.drugs, I have come are back from a UN conference where I was arguing
:07:32. > :07:36.for drug taking. Are there lots of people like you, regular drug
:07:36. > :07:40.users? Countless thousands of people whose drug use is functional,
:07:40. > :07:43.and because of the stigma and discrimination and criminalisation,
:07:43. > :07:47.cannot possibly come out in public and admit to the fact that they use
:07:47. > :07:51.drugs that are currently legal, but do so in a perfectly functional way.
:07:51. > :07:54.What do you make of that position? I think it's unsustainable. It was
:07:54. > :07:58.interesting in the video that we heard Nick Clegg talking about why
:07:59. > :08:04.he's talking about this today, that the drugs policy isn't working. Yet
:08:04. > :08:08.we then saw statistics to show he's ten years out of date. Our laws are
:08:08. > :08:12.working, he particularly focused on children, and their drug use, their
:08:12. > :08:16.use has gone down by 30% in the past ten years. This raises the
:08:16. > :08:21.question, which we all need to engage with, what is the aim of
:08:22. > :08:26.drugs policy? Drugs policy really ought to be towards the public good.
:08:26. > :08:30.It should be to do with reducing the collective harm we have in
:08:30. > :08:33.society. But, you have just heard somebody say, we will leave aside
:08:33. > :08:37.our feelings about whether we should be paying for your drugs,
:08:37. > :08:42.but there is somebody who can function perfectly well, where is
:08:42. > :08:45.the gain in stopping him using? Part of the problem that we have,
:08:45. > :08:51.which makes it a difficult topic for the general public and
:08:51. > :08:56.politicians, is that use of drugs is associated with harm, for many
:08:56. > :09:01.individuals, it is a harm that we would want to avoid. But, also, our
:09:01. > :09:06.sanctions, also bringing their own collateral damage and complicate it.
:09:06. > :09:10.One is looking, really for whatever incremental change can you make,
:09:10. > :09:13.that reduces the harm overall. you share that view of what the
:09:13. > :09:19.objective of drugs policy ought to be? Every law is about balancing
:09:19. > :09:24.freedom and risk. And to date we have felt that the risk of drug
:09:24. > :09:28.taking, outweighs our freedoms to be able to do what we want and take
:09:28. > :09:32.whatever drugs we want. It is not just about the science, it is about
:09:32. > :09:37.society, it is about what's in the national interest, and that is
:09:37. > :09:41.outweighed, you know, the risks are too great. I would actually dispute
:09:41. > :09:44.that you are still functioning normally. I'm afraid the medical
:09:44. > :09:48.evidence is your blood vessels are shrinking by the month, by the year.
:09:48. > :09:52.You will not be able to sustain having morphine injections until
:09:52. > :09:58.you are old, you won't get to old age.
:09:58. > :10:03.How old are you? I'm 43 years old, I have been using heroin for 25
:10:03. > :10:07.years, and as you probably know, if you do know the evidence, opiates
:10:07. > :10:11.are actually a very safe substance to use. You The only risk
:10:11. > :10:16.associated with overdose. You feel well? I'm extremely well, as I said,
:10:16. > :10:21.I was doing my PhD, whilst a daily heroin user. Lots of people sleep
:10:21. > :10:27.their ways through PhDs? Indeed they do. However, when I was
:10:27. > :10:30.teaching and working, nobody ever knew I was a daily heroin user, it
:10:30. > :10:34.didn't affect my ability to function at a high level. If the
:10:34. > :10:40.idea is to minimise harm, that's the objective, minimising harm, and
:10:40. > :10:45.there are various ways that might be done. Is harm being minimised,
:10:45. > :10:51.currently, by keeping them illegal? In a way the missing ingredient
:10:51. > :10:55.from the way we tackle this problem is that we don't test that. What we
:10:55. > :10:59.have is political and public posturing, we have people coming on
:10:59. > :11:03.your programme and others, campaigning, or lobbying. What you
:11:03. > :11:07.really want to do is make small incremental changes, as you would
:11:07. > :11:12.do in the treatment, if you want to know whether you get improved
:11:12. > :11:16.treatment with cancer survival rates, or any other disorder like
:11:16. > :11:20.that, you expect toe see small incremental change, and you want to
:11:20. > :11:23.check does that improve the situation or worsen it. What is
:11:23. > :11:26.missing is the commitment to science. What you are saying is the
:11:26. > :11:32.very worst people to make drugs policy are politicians? I think
:11:32. > :11:35.there is an inherent problem in the position of positions. They
:11:35. > :11:39.necessarily want to do what is popular, and what I want
:11:39. > :11:41.politicians to do, is to look at the evidence and do what is most
:11:41. > :11:46.effective. What would you change about the way
:11:46. > :11:51.drugs policy works now? I would want to look at the way we deal
:11:51. > :11:54.with called legal highs. I think, the law cannot keep up, they are
:11:54. > :11:59.coming on the market, the film said one new one every year, I think it
:11:59. > :12:03.is more frequent than that. And we can't possibly keep up. We need to
:12:03. > :12:06.look at them in the same way we do with prescription drugs. If they
:12:06. > :12:09.have a license then they are legal, if they haven't got a license and
:12:09. > :12:12.they are not prescribeed, then they are illegal, it doesn't matter what
:12:12. > :12:15.they are called or the new formulation is. That is one thing.
:12:15. > :12:18.The other thing I would like to see is a serious look at the drug
:12:18. > :12:22.problem in prison, that is out of control. That bit isn't working,
:12:22. > :12:27.and I take your point, we should be looking at what we can change there
:12:27. > :12:30.to improve outcomes for prisoners. That we have a lunatic penal system
:12:30. > :12:35.in which people go in clean and come out addicted. That is to do
:12:35. > :12:39.with the way the prisons are run as much as anything. Is there some
:12:39. > :12:45.deep social problem in this country that leads to greater drug use? Why
:12:45. > :12:49.did you start doing it? It was purely a choice that I chose to
:12:49. > :12:54.make. Out of intellectual curiosity and interest, something I found to
:12:54. > :12:57.be enjoyable, and sociable. But you know that there are plenty of other
:12:57. > :13:01.people who have taken heroin, crack cocaine, and various other drugs,
:13:01. > :13:08.and are not here to tell the tale, you are very blase about it?
:13:08. > :13:11.this is not about me as a person, as an individual. The fact is, we
:13:11. > :13:16.have an enormous number of people who use drugs, who have a large
:13:16. > :13:22.range of social problems, whether they be lack of housing, lack of
:13:23. > :13:26.employment, lack of education, and in addition to drug use. What tends
:13:26. > :13:30.to happen is we identify drug use as the sole cause of the problems
:13:30. > :13:34.they have. We are dealing with a very complex social mix.
:13:34. > :13:37.Criminalising people and subjected them to stigma is increasing the
:13:37. > :13:41.problems. It is very difficult when there is such a broad span of
:13:41. > :13:45.people who use drugs. The sort of evidence that Steve Smith was
:13:45. > :13:48.citing in that piece, people go clubbing, for example, or they go
:13:49. > :13:54.out on social events, it is a different kind of problem to the
:13:54. > :13:58.sort of problem that you have identified here, of people who are
:13:59. > :14:01.socially disadvantaged, and are using drugs for whatever reason as
:14:01. > :14:05.part of that whole experience of social disadvantage. It is very
:14:05. > :14:12.hard to have some overarching policy isn't it? Well, I think we
:14:12. > :14:16.have got one, which is using drugs is illegal, that is an overarching
:14:16. > :14:19.policy. It is an interesting point. You already said, it's indicative
:14:19. > :14:23.of social dysfunction, of lack of confidence, of needing that
:14:23. > :14:27.something else that you can't get from yourself, and drugs then,
:14:27. > :14:30.turning to drugs simply causes addiction, causing problems with
:14:30. > :14:34.finance, with crime. We should be looking at why are people turning
:14:34. > :14:39.to drugs in the first place. What is wrong that they feel that is the
:14:39. > :14:43.only solution for them? David Cameron came up with the old line
:14:43. > :14:46.about Royal Commissions taking minutes and lasting years. The
:14:46. > :14:51.other one is they are not so much designed to dig things up, and dig
:14:51. > :14:54.them in. Would you have a Royal Commission? I'm probably not the
:14:54. > :14:59.sort of person who would say a Royal Commission is the right
:14:59. > :15:02.mechanism or not. A way of re- examining? What we do want is an
:15:02. > :15:07.open-minded examination of the different options. I mean I would
:15:07. > :15:12.differ in the view about, I would not want to be encouraging people
:15:12. > :15:18.to use drugs. I would want to have mechanisms that enabled people to
:15:18. > :15:25.get out of the hole that they are in. Some of those would involve
:15:25. > :15:30.meeting people where they are. Working with their difficulties. I
:15:30. > :15:35.think the prison example is a good one. I would go back to the science
:15:35. > :15:39.question. I would expect people to tell me where the short sentences,
:15:39. > :15:44.or long sentences were more effective. Or how much difference
:15:44. > :15:47.did the support after prison make? Those answers would then guide me
:15:47. > :15:51.in how I constructed a more effective response. What we can
:15:51. > :15:55.learn from Portugal, is that policy was brought in specifically for
:15:55. > :16:01.people who are HIV-positive, and the amount of transference of HIV
:16:01. > :16:06.through drug users, using syringes, it wasn't about going soft on drugs.
:16:06. > :16:11.Of course, what there is in the Portugal example, while the focus
:16:11. > :16:16.has been on the legal framework, it actually is a shift in the
:16:16. > :16:19.investment from a criminal justice response to actually a health
:16:19. > :16:23.caring response. Another bunch of children murdered in a place of
:16:23. > :16:27.apparent safety, what is there to say, except, not again. The news
:16:27. > :16:33.that at least 26 people, most of them children, have died in yet
:16:33. > :16:38.another mass shooting, this time at an Elementary School in Conneticut,
:16:38. > :16:41.has a sickening familiarity. The affection which much of the US
:16:41. > :16:45.looks on guns will be re-examined again, and we shall soon hear again
:16:45. > :16:49.the claims of the gun trade that they cannot be blamed for what
:16:49. > :16:53.people do with their lethal products. Tonight the President had
:16:53. > :16:58.this emotional reaction. majority of those who died today
:16:58. > :17:08.were children. Beautiful little kids between the ages of five and
:17:08. > :17:14.
:17:14. > :17:24.ten years old. They had their entire lives ahead of them.
:17:24. > :17:26.
:17:26. > :17:31.Birthdays, graduations, weddings, kids of their own. Among the fallen
:17:32. > :17:39.were also teachers, men and women who devoted their lives to helping
:17:39. > :17:42.our children fulfil their dreams. So our hearts are broken today.
:17:42. > :17:52.have Bill Clinton's speechwriter at the time of the Columbine massacre,
:17:52. > :17:52.
:17:52. > :17:57.and now edits Washington Monthly, and we have the bureau chief from
:17:57. > :18:02.one of the papers. The White House was saying it is not the time for
:18:02. > :18:04.policy initiatives, why not, if not when? It is a perfect time to talk
:18:04. > :18:07.policy. In the Clinton administration, when we had these
:18:07. > :18:14.sorts of mass shooting, you bet we used them to draw attention to
:18:15. > :18:18.policies that we had, that we thought would lessen gun crimes.
:18:18. > :18:21.Since then, however, the politics of the country have changed, the
:18:21. > :18:26.politics of the democratic party have changed. And the President,
:18:26. > :18:34.and lots of Democrats over the last eight years, ten years, have made
:18:34. > :18:40.the decision that trying to do something about gun crimes, about
:18:40. > :18:45.gun control, is a political loser. So very little has been proposed.
:18:45. > :18:50.Really, since the late 19 90s. this likely to have any greater
:18:50. > :18:54.impact in terms of gun control than previous tragedies in your country?
:18:54. > :18:59.Well, I am afraid that I'm sceptical. We have seen a series of
:18:59. > :19:03.shootings over the years, and in many places people have said this
:19:03. > :19:07.is the one, this one is so ghastly, there is something so uniquely
:19:07. > :19:11.horrible. We had the one in the movie theatre this summer? Colorado,
:19:11. > :19:17.where the man was wearing a terrifying costume, it was in the
:19:17. > :19:22.middle of this Batman premier, people were trapped in their seats.
:19:22. > :19:30.There was something unusually sadistic about it. Opinion about
:19:30. > :19:33.gun control didn't change, when Gaby Gifford, a popular
:19:33. > :19:38.Congresswoman was shot that didn't change things. The victims are so
:19:38. > :19:41.young this time, and the numbers are so high, will it be
:19:41. > :19:46.qualitatively different, recent history makes me sceptical it would
:19:46. > :19:49.be. It is a matter of utter bafflement to the rest of the world,
:19:49. > :19:58.when you see these things happening time after time after time, and
:19:58. > :20:05.there is no change of policy? What is your idea? I think, if it turns
:20:05. > :20:09.out that this gun that was used in the shooting, was gotten illegally.
:20:09. > :20:12.There is a chance that we will see some policy initiative. What really
:20:12. > :20:17.needs to happen in the United States, is to crack down on the
:20:17. > :20:21.handful of gun dealers, whose weapons wind up being used by
:20:21. > :20:27.criminals in crimes. The vast majority of gun crimes are from
:20:27. > :20:30.guns that come from a tiny fraction of gun store, the problem is the
:20:30. > :20:35.federal Government's agency to regulate gun stores, the ATF, is
:20:35. > :20:39.ham strung by laws put there by Republican Congressmen, and
:20:39. > :20:44.senators, and in cahoots with the National Rifle Association, that is
:20:44. > :20:49.a good battle to have. If it is a legal gun, bought by somebody who,
:20:49. > :20:53.for whom, our existing gun laws, even if enforced, would not have
:20:53. > :21:00.stopped. Then it is a much harder to see what the next policy step
:21:00. > :21:06.would be. What do you think, why does this keep on happening in your
:21:06. > :21:10.country? We have got 300 million guns floating around the country.
:21:11. > :21:16.It has always been a country that revered the capacity of citizens,
:21:16. > :21:24.the ability of citizens, to own guns. But not to shoot children in
:21:24. > :21:31.school, what's your view? Of course. Well, of course, that, a big issue
:21:31. > :21:35.we can't overlook is mental health. If one common thread to all the
:21:35. > :21:39.incidents, is severely disturbed people who didn't get the mental
:21:39. > :21:43.health assistance they needed. I want to remind people that the
:21:43. > :21:46.story is more about gun laws, there is only so much you can legislate
:21:46. > :21:50.to prevent someone hurting people if there is something seriously
:21:50. > :21:54.wrong with them. There are often red flags overlooked, people need
:21:54. > :21:59.treatment and perhaps they need to be locked up. There is this element
:21:59. > :22:02.to the national culture, for better or for worse, it is written in the
:22:02. > :22:06.constitution that there is a might to bear arms. People argue about
:22:06. > :22:13.what it means. But it has become part of America's character, that
:22:13. > :22:17.goes back to that frontier, ethos. It was really striking, wasn't it,
:22:17. > :22:23.that Obama looked visibly, very moved by what had happened, do you
:22:23. > :22:26.think he will be moved enough to act on these in-built convictions
:22:26. > :22:31.that allow these people to act like this? I don't want to be glib, but
:22:31. > :22:34.you might speculate that he was moved because he knows that so
:22:35. > :22:40.little realistically can be done and will be done. I think the
:22:40. > :22:44.political system, look there is a well-funded, well-organised, very
:22:44. > :22:49.effective lobby that fight gun control laws in this country. On
:22:49. > :22:55.the otherhand you have a public that is horrified and outraged
:22:55. > :22:59.periodically by events like this, but the emotions fade. The National
:22:59. > :23:03.Rifle Association, and those gun lobbies who wake up thinking about
:23:03. > :23:08.this, they don't give up the fight and they have the upper hand.
:23:08. > :23:16.of the most distinguished scientists in the land want the
:23:16. > :23:20.Prime Minister formally to forgive, the mathematician that played a an
:23:20. > :23:24.important role in breaking codes in Bletchley Park. Alan Turing killed
:23:24. > :23:28.himself after being accused of gross indecency with a man. No-one
:23:28. > :23:32.denies he served his country or his suicide was a tragedy, what exactly
:23:32. > :23:38.is the Prime Minister to forgive? Indeed, is he in any permission to
:23:38. > :23:43.do so. Why not apologise to other victims of other now long dead laws.
:23:43. > :23:50.He was a brilliant mathematician and computer pioneer, it was Alan
:23:50. > :23:54.Turing's work, decoding military messages sent out by the German
:23:55. > :23:59.Enigma machine, that made him a hero. During the Second World War
:23:59. > :24:04.the Germans believed the Enigma code of unbreakable, in one of the
:24:05. > :24:08.most secret projects of the war, Bletchley Park, Turing's team
:24:08. > :24:13.cracked it. The gave the Allies the intelligence to anticipate what the
:24:13. > :24:18.Germans might do next, shortening the war and saving lives. But in
:24:18. > :24:23.1952, Alan Turing was charged with gross indecency, for committing
:24:23. > :24:28.homosexual acts. He avoided prison, only by agreeing to injections of
:24:28. > :24:35.female hormones. Two years later he was found dead, having eaten an
:24:35. > :24:41.apple laced with cyanide. In 2009, after an on-line petition calling
:24:41. > :24:45.for him to be pardoned received tenss of thousands of signatures,
:24:45. > :24:49.Gordon Brown apologised for the way he was treated. Scientists,
:24:49. > :24:52.including Stephen Hawking, the head of the Royal Society, and the
:24:52. > :24:57.Astronomer Royal, have called for David Cameron, formally, to forgive
:24:57. > :25:00.him. If he's pardoned, who else? Oscar Wilde, he's famous too, do
:25:00. > :25:04.great actions make you more deserving than the thousands of
:25:04. > :25:10.others convicted under the same law?
:25:10. > :25:15.Posthumous pardons do happen. In 2006, the MoD gave one to more than
:25:15. > :25:19.300 soldiers, shot for military eavess, including cowardice -
:25:19. > :25:24.offences, including cowardice in World War I. A pardon doesn't undo
:25:24. > :25:28.the damage, but campaigners say it would undo the blemish.
:25:28. > :25:36.Bletchley Park is in the constituency of Ian Stewart, and he
:25:36. > :25:39.is supporting the campaign for Alan Turing to be pardoned, we have the
:25:39. > :25:44.Professor of mathematics at the university of Oxford. What
:25:45. > :25:51.difference would a pardon make? this centinary year, the pardon
:25:51. > :25:54.will help us not only celebrate his many achievements, but right a
:25:54. > :26:01.dreadful wrong done to this brilliant man. He's dead? You said
:26:01. > :26:05.in the introduction, there is a precedent now, the desers in World
:26:05. > :26:10.War I was pardoned, Government has passed already an act in the
:26:10. > :26:14.protection of freedoms act, which cleanses a record of living people,
:26:14. > :26:20.who were convicted of such called crimes. I just think now we have to
:26:20. > :26:24.right the wrong. What do you think about it? Alan Turing is one of my
:26:24. > :26:29.great heros, one of the greatest scientist of the 20th century. In
:26:29. > :26:35.some ways the issue is slightly confused. You know, why pardon him,
:26:35. > :26:39.because he's a great mathematician, and a hero for the Second World War,
:26:39. > :26:43.helped crack the Enigma reason. I think it doesn't go far enough, I
:26:43. > :26:47.think, certainly, he should be pardoned, but also everyone
:26:47. > :26:51.convicted under the act. The wrong was making that a criminal act.
:26:51. > :26:55.fame, his celebrity, his talent, whatever, should not entitle him to
:26:55. > :27:01.preferential treatment, should it? The Government has already acted to
:27:01. > :27:06.cleanse the record of living people, it doesn't apply posthumously.
:27:06. > :27:10.There mayle well be other very deserving cases. -- There may well
:27:10. > :27:14.be other deserving cases. What about Oscar Wilde, he was convicted
:27:14. > :27:19.of the same offence? That is a separate debate to be had. It is
:27:19. > :27:22.the same issue, you would say yes? This is just confusing it, it is
:27:22. > :27:27.really about criminalising. What about people convicted of
:27:27. > :27:32.witchcraft, that is another law that no longer exists? For Alan
:27:32. > :27:35.Turing, we owe our liberty to this man, he cracked the code, and
:27:36. > :27:39.without his work the war would have been prolonged and the outcome
:27:39. > :27:42.might have been given. The apology given by Gordon Brown was
:27:42. > :27:46.absolutely right, think we can do better for, that there is a public
:27:46. > :27:51.appetite for it. At the time this was a crime what he did. That is a
:27:51. > :27:56.fair point. That's why Governments of both colours have resisted a
:27:56. > :28:00.pardon until now. I think there is a debate to be had. I would like to
:28:00. > :28:02.see parliament have a chance fully to debate this and express its
:28:03. > :28:06.opinion. Where would you take it, you say this is a pardon that
:28:06. > :28:10.should be extended to everyone convicted of this crime, would you
:28:10. > :28:14.extend it to other things that are no longer a crime? I mentioned
:28:14. > :28:18.witchcraft, there are people who died because they were judged
:28:18. > :28:21.witches? This is a case of taking each particular criminal act and
:28:21. > :28:26.deciding it should never have been a criminal act. In this case it is
:28:26. > :28:31.totally clear it was a big mistake to criminalise homosexuality.
:28:31. > :28:34.Witchcraft? I would go for that. Any others? So there would be a
:28:34. > :28:38.blanket pardon, despite the fact that in the context of the time it
:28:38. > :28:43.was a crime? The pardon is saying it was a mistake to make that a
:28:43. > :28:48.crime. And we now realise it was a mistake, it should never have been
:28:48. > :28:52.that. It is great retrospective wisdom? It is strange the letter,
:28:52. > :28:57.which is asking Cameron to pardon Alan Turing, he did nothing wrong.
:28:57. > :29:01.He doesn't need forgiving. The word "forgiveness". Who is David Cameron
:29:01. > :29:05.it pardon anybody? They should be asking Turing to forgive them,
:29:05. > :29:09.frankly, I think it is all the wrong way round. If I can just
:29:09. > :29:14.point out, there is a bill in parliament at the moment, sponsored
:29:14. > :29:18.by my colleague in the Lords, Lord Sharky, the bill is very
:29:18. > :29:22.specifically on Alan Turing, it would be parliament that passed a
:29:22. > :29:29.law. It wouldn't be the Prime Minister himself granting a pardon.
:29:29. > :29:36.I think that is a very important We have to check out now to make
:29:36. > :29:42.way for the review show, and their exciting Hobbit-fest coming up.
:29:42. > :29:47.Next time you watch a dimwited Hobbit wrestling with the bleeping
:29:47. > :29:52.supermarket checkouts in your local supermarket. Say out a prayer for