:00:13. > :00:17.Distrust, dissent and disquiet in the Conservative Party, as its
:00:17. > :00:20.leader pushes the boat out for gay marriage. This say increasingly
:00:21. > :00:25.vocal numbers of members, is not the Tory Party we joined.
:00:25. > :00:28.He may see it as a civil rights issue, by David Cameron never
:00:28. > :00:38.promised this to the British people, and plenty of his party are fed up
:00:38. > :00:39.
:00:39. > :00:44.with him for it. This is probably the most decisive issue I have seen,
:00:44. > :00:47.even compared with Europe and the economy. Where does the heart of
:00:47. > :00:51.modern Conservatism lie when it comes to issues like this?
:00:51. > :00:56.We have to go back to the early days of the United States to grasp
:00:56. > :01:06.the gun issue, but is a 200-year- old piece of legislation, any basis
:01:06. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:10.for security in the 21st century. We ask the author. Lionel Schriver.
:01:10. > :01:14.Loyalists protest on the streets of Northern Ireland about their flag.
:01:14. > :01:18.The Republicans are playing this game, the game is a different type
:01:18. > :01:22.of war, it is totally different. But it is a war. A war of removing
:01:22. > :01:29.everything that we hold dear so they can gain plaudits in their
:01:29. > :01:35.community for doing that. How on earth did the land of fine
:01:35. > :01:44.tailoring of this, who is to blame for the must-have Christmas item,
:01:44. > :01:49.the oneies. A growing split is growing in the coalition, not
:01:49. > :01:52.between the Tories and the Liberal Democrats, a split within the
:01:53. > :01:57.Conservative Party. An increasingly vocal section of the party is
:01:57. > :02:01.beginning to make rude noises about David Cameron. The datest friction
:02:01. > :02:08.is over the Prime Minister's enthusiasmism for gay marriage. Not
:02:08. > :02:13.only is this a deeply un- Conservative thing to do, it is an
:02:13. > :02:17.idea that people never had chance to vote on, on a practical level. A
:02:17. > :02:23.more liberal constituency will come at the cost of alienating the key
:02:23. > :02:26.supporters the party relies on to get elected, they claim. Party grey
:02:26. > :02:32.beards can't understand why David Cameron has such a bee in his
:02:32. > :02:36.bonnet about it. It was traditionally festive in
:02:36. > :02:40.Downing Street this evening, with Santa's reindeer making an
:02:40. > :02:45.appearance for a children's party. Hopefully nobody was put off by a
:02:45. > :02:49.chef lurking in the background. Traditional marriage isn't on the
:02:49. > :02:52.menu at Downing Street either. Many in David Cameron's party are
:02:52. > :02:55.perplexed, with that so many issues facing the country, like the
:02:55. > :03:00.economy, transport, Europe, immigration, he has chosen to lock
:03:00. > :03:05.horns with his MPs on the issue of gay marriage.
:03:05. > :03:10.I think it sits very awkwardly on the backbenches, people feel that
:03:11. > :03:14.there are greater priorities. That they very strongly feel that we
:03:15. > :03:20.should be focusing on jobs, the economy, growth and reform of
:03:20. > :03:23.public services. For a measure that was not in the Queen's Speech, the
:03:23. > :03:26.manifesto or the coalition agreement, where as for instance a
:03:26. > :03:28.commitment to tax breaks for marriage was, people are rather
:03:28. > :03:32.puzzled as to why this is a priority.
:03:32. > :03:35.Mr Jackson is one of 58 parliamentarians to sign a letter,
:03:35. > :03:39.complaining that the Government has skewed their consultation on the
:03:39. > :03:49.issue, by considering comments from people overseas, but ignoring a
:03:49. > :04:03.
:04:03. > :04:06.petition from half a million people Why is David Cameron pushing ahead
:04:06. > :04:11.with his plans? Since civil partnerships gave gay people many
:04:11. > :04:15.of the same legal rights as married couples, there are doesn't seem to
:04:15. > :04:20.have been a big clamour for a change in the law.
:04:20. > :04:23.Perhaps the idea is trianglelation, you lose a few votes on the right
:04:23. > :04:28.of the party, but pick up a whole load more in the centre. If that is
:04:28. > :04:33.the strategy, some pollsters believe it is flawed. The polls
:04:33. > :04:38.suggest this is just as much of as a turn-off for Labour and Lib Dem
:04:38. > :04:48.voters as it is for Conservative voters. In that more people who
:04:48. > :04:48.
:04:48. > :04:52.currently vote Labour or Lib Dem say that they are less likely to
:04:52. > :04:56.vote for the Conservative Party as a result. The conclusion is maybe
:04:56. > :04:59.60% of the public think it is a PR trick by David Cameron to persuade
:04:59. > :05:03.people that the Conservative Party has changed in some way.
:05:03. > :05:08.Transport Secretary, is one of several members of the cabinet to
:05:08. > :05:14.advocate gay marriage, but his constituency party is not happy.
:05:14. > :05:19.In any political party you get issues which create concern, or
:05:19. > :05:24.lead to resignations. This is probably the most devisive issue I
:05:25. > :05:29.have seen. Even compared with issues like Europe or the economy.
:05:29. > :05:32.It is having a dramatic, calamitous affect on activists, as I
:05:32. > :05:37.understand it, there were hundreds of thousands of Conservative
:05:37. > :05:40.activists saying they will not work for the party any longer, we don't
:05:40. > :05:43.believe what it is doing on gay marriage and we are going on strike.
:05:43. > :05:47.No Government, no party can put up with that sort of situation for
:05:47. > :05:56.long, without it having a very, very significant electoral impact.
:05:56. > :06:02.So where are these disaffected Conservative voters going? Well t
:06:02. > :06:05.appears there is someone answer. is a lot of evidence that gay
:06:05. > :06:10.marriage is directly related today the surge in UKIP support in the
:06:10. > :06:13.last week or two. For Nigel Farage, he can turn round to the public and
:06:13. > :06:18.say, well, unlike the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dem, I'm offering
:06:18. > :06:24.you something different, and playing to those very disaffected
:06:24. > :06:27.Conservative voters. Indeed UKIP have become above the Lib Dems in
:06:27. > :06:30.five of the 12 by-elections in which they fielded candidates since
:06:30. > :06:33.2010, they have come second in three of those by-elections.
:06:33. > :06:38.think for an awful lot of Conservative supporters, frankly,
:06:38. > :06:41.this is the final straw. I would remind people, that since Cameron
:06:41. > :06:48.became leader, the number of paid- up Tory members has halved, and
:06:48. > :06:53.most of those exist in the traditional, rural shires,
:06:53. > :06:58.attitudes in gay marriage are different in the Metropilis to out
:06:58. > :07:00.in the sticks. This will cost up about 25% of Tory Party membership.
:07:00. > :07:05.David Cameron has promised his party a free vote on the issue,
:07:05. > :07:09.even so, some of his MPs think the policy could profoundly destablise
:07:09. > :07:13.the Conservatives, and with it, the Prime Minister's leadership.
:07:13. > :07:17.It is a pretty difficult position to be in for any Prime Minister,
:07:17. > :07:20.Conservative Prime Minister, to force through a policy, not in the
:07:20. > :07:27.manifesto, or a coalition agreement, with the help of Labour votes, in
:07:27. > :07:30.the House of Commons. That is a pretty parlour state for any leader
:07:30. > :07:34.to be in, I would urge David Cameron to think carefully if he
:07:34. > :07:37.wants to be in that position by late spring, as we come up to
:07:37. > :07:40.County Council elections. It will undermine his position as leader,
:07:40. > :07:48.it will weaken the Conservative Party both in parliament and in the
:07:48. > :07:52.country. Mercifully tonight, Santa left Downing Street with all his
:07:52. > :07:58.reindeer intact. It is clear though, that on the issue of same-sex
:07:58. > :08:03.marriage, David Cameron isn't taking all of his party with him.
:08:03. > :08:07.Let's discuss now with my guests. We have the President of Michael
:08:07. > :08:12.Gove's local Conservative Party in Surrey heath. With the editor of
:08:12. > :08:15.the Conservative Home website, and the signatory to the letter in the
:08:15. > :08:21.Telegraph today, opposing proposals for gay marriage.
:08:21. > :08:25.What is it like in your constituency, what are the
:08:25. > :08:32.feelings? People are saddened on this. For some reason David Cameron
:08:32. > :08:36.has decided to try to rush this legislation through parliament. I
:08:36. > :08:42.don't think the thing has been thought through to any great degree.
:08:42. > :08:46.Progressively the older the local Conservative members are, the more
:08:46. > :08:50.uncomfortable they feel about this. Because they have been brought up
:08:50. > :08:55.that marriage has been between a man and a woman, and that they feel
:08:55. > :09:02.we should, and to bring up children as well. To be presented with what
:09:02. > :09:06.appears to be a fait accompli. they faiing to you that is it, we
:09:06. > :09:10.are not going to -- saying that is it, we are not campaigning for you?
:09:10. > :09:15.It is too early to say. We had a local by-election recently, it was
:09:15. > :09:19.pretty hard to get people to go out and put round the leaflets and
:09:19. > :09:25.everything else. Why on earth is he doing it, then? Actually, a year
:09:25. > :09:29.after he became Conservative leader, he made it very clear that he saw
:09:29. > :09:32.marriage as being something, not just between a man and a woman, but
:09:32. > :09:37.potentially two men, two women. This is something David Cameron has
:09:37. > :09:41.believed in for a long time. There is, as Jeffrey said, a lot of
:09:41. > :09:45.unhappiness in Tory ranks, not just on this issue, but on a number of
:09:45. > :09:49.issues, this almost seems to be a last straw that has broke the
:09:49. > :09:53.camel's back for many people. But there is a history of lots of
:09:53. > :09:57.issues like civil partnerships, and Section 28, causing a lot of fuss
:09:57. > :10:02.at the time, and then as soon as the legislation is passed, it
:10:02. > :10:05.subsides. I think that's what will happen with this reform. Let's find
:10:05. > :10:09.out, you are one of the signatories to the letter, saying you are very
:10:09. > :10:14.unhappy about it, are you going to roll over in the end? No, I think
:10:14. > :10:17.the worst thing about this ill- thought-out proposal is it demeans
:10:17. > :10:22.marriage, which is sacrosanct and has a special meaning in the Church
:10:22. > :10:27.of England, especially, but also it is the law of unintended
:10:27. > :10:31.consequences. If we rush through this law, and down the line there
:10:31. > :10:35.will have to be definitions created, there will have to be, I don't want
:10:35. > :10:40.to go on to clause 28, marriage will have to be taught in churches,
:10:41. > :10:44.and in schools to schoolchildren. No longer will we be able to say
:10:44. > :10:48.that marriage between a man and a woman is something special. Now, I
:10:48. > :10:52.think we're in a very good place with civil partnerships, to that
:10:52. > :10:55.extent I think there has been sea change, but they are still
:10:55. > :11:01.relatively new. What worries me about this proposal is we didn't
:11:01. > :11:05.campaign on it, I didn't have the chance to say, in my extended
:11:05. > :11:10.election campaign in 2010, that this was either part of my
:11:10. > :11:14.manifesto, or when the coalition agreement was being written as I
:11:14. > :11:17.was still campaigning, I wasn't able to say I disagreed with it.
:11:17. > :11:21.There is a great strength of feeling, perhaps it is a
:11:21. > :11:25.Metropolitan, rural issue, perhaps it is a younger person versus an
:11:25. > :11:28.older person issue, it is very devisive, let's come back to it in
:11:28. > :11:32.three years time. You said he made it clear very early in his
:11:32. > :11:37.leadership he believed in it, why not put it in the manifesto or the
:11:37. > :11:41.coalition agreement? That is a good point, for most people, there is a
:11:41. > :11:46.Mori poll last week, 75% of the British people have no problem with
:11:46. > :11:50.this reform. That is not the point? As long as religious liberty is
:11:50. > :11:54.protected. They would be in favour of free chocolate, that isn't in
:11:54. > :12:01.the manifesto, that is a meaningless manifesto? How many
:12:01. > :12:06.people read the leader's man -- the manifesto rather than the leader's
:12:06. > :12:09.speech. We fight elections on manifestos, it is the legislative
:12:09. > :12:14.programme. For most people watching this debate, they can't understand
:12:14. > :12:18.why a lot of Conservatives are unhappy about it, as long as
:12:18. > :12:21.religious liberty is protected. are a Conservative, presumably you
:12:21. > :12:28.understand it. Which aspect. understand why people like
:12:28. > :12:33.Jeffrey's friends in Surrey Heath are so exorcited about it?
:12:33. > :12:38.understand people are worried about a reform being imposed upon them.
:12:38. > :12:40.The Government is clear unless religious liberty is protected.
:12:40. > :12:43.legally can't protect religious liberties, the latest announcement
:12:43. > :12:48.last week, trying to exclude the Church of England has made matters
:12:48. > :12:54.worse, it shows how ill-thought-out this proposal is. In the end, what
:12:54. > :12:59.is your majority, thousands? They weigh the Conservative vote?
:12:59. > :13:04.There is no such thing a as a safe seat. I totally disagree with you.
:13:04. > :13:09.This is highly controversial, this is overturning 5,000 years worth of
:13:09. > :13:13.accepted wisdom that marriage is between a man and a woman, people,
:13:13. > :13:18.to overturn that, in a whim and the fashion, at such short notice,
:13:18. > :13:21.surely a wise man would give much more consideration and debate of
:13:21. > :13:25.this. Do you think it may be a matter of personal conviction for
:13:25. > :13:29.him. It might be something he believes in very strongly? I'm sure
:13:29. > :13:32.he may well be. We are not a dictatorship, we are in a democracy,
:13:32. > :13:36.an issue like this should be debated fully, and both sides of
:13:36. > :13:39.the argument should be fully debated at considerable length. We
:13:39. > :13:43.shouldn't rush something like this. One of the most alarming things for
:13:43. > :13:46.people, and I have had a lot of letters from people who will say,
:13:46. > :13:49.whether they will remember about it, if it is passed through very
:13:49. > :13:53.quickly, but they say they won't vote for us again or work for us
:13:53. > :13:59.again. What about the people who responded to the consultation, and
:13:59. > :14:01.what about the 500,000-plus people who have declared that they
:14:02. > :14:05.vehemently opposed to this particular proposal. You may have
:14:05. > :14:09.some people who won't vote for you, presumably there will be lots of
:14:09. > :14:13.happily married gay people who will vote for you? I personally want to
:14:13. > :14:19.celebrate marriage, and celebrate civil partnership, I don't think we
:14:19. > :14:23.should merge the two, drg -- I think the two are totally different.
:14:24. > :14:27.Isn't that t you appeal to a different constituency? For me,
:14:27. > :14:31.marriage is an incredibly important institution, it doesn't just join
:14:31. > :14:35.two people together, it joins the couple's loved ones, friends and
:14:35. > :14:37.family together as well, I think it is right that such an important
:14:37. > :14:41.institution, an incredibly conservative institution, doesn't
:14:41. > :14:46.exclude anyone in society. And actually, by introducing equal
:14:46. > :14:50.marriage, we broaden and popularise an institution, and make it more
:14:50. > :14:57.central to society, not less central to society. Men and women
:14:57. > :15:01.are different. At as a one-time divorce lawyer, I know part of the
:15:01. > :15:04.reason that marriage has succeeded in the way it has is for the
:15:04. > :15:07.protection of women and children. If you change the ground rules,
:15:07. > :15:12.there are going to be some very confused people out there, in the
:15:12. > :15:17.church, in schools, in society at large, and I just think we have set
:15:17. > :15:23.a very. What will they be confused about? About what the implications
:15:23. > :15:28.are. It is lifetime commitment of two people? We have it in civil
:15:28. > :15:36.partnerships, what is the need to change at this pace. Lots of things
:15:36. > :15:40.have changed in marriage over decent decades, the church opposed
:15:40. > :15:43.the remarriage, Jesus spoke about remarriage being wrong, in gay he
:15:43. > :15:48.never spoke about gay partnerships being wrong. I don't think the Old
:15:48. > :15:52.Testament is a place you want to go for the purpose of this argument.
:15:52. > :15:56.think it is the New Testament actually? The Old Testament is more
:15:56. > :16:02.rigorous about these issues. that in your pipe and smoke it?
:16:02. > :16:05.I do! Supposing, that there is no resigning from this issue,
:16:05. > :16:10.supposing that David Cameron says I'm sorry, I really, profoundly
:16:10. > :16:14.believe in this, I'm the leader of this party, I will go ahead with it,
:16:14. > :16:18.what will happen in an area like your's? I think regretfully we will
:16:18. > :16:21.lose a certain number of members, probably to UKIP, that is where
:16:21. > :16:26.they will go. Their manifesto on this specific issue is very clear.
:16:26. > :16:28.I think it is a policy which we as Conservatives would like, we are
:16:29. > :16:34.totally in favour of civil partnership, but we do feel that
:16:34. > :16:36.going to marriage, so quickly is too quickly. We will lose
:16:37. > :16:42.supporters, and we will regretfully find it more difficult to get
:16:42. > :16:45.people to go out. If this goes through, I think we will have two-
:16:45. > :16:51.and-a-half years and I would like to think that David Cameron will
:16:51. > :16:55.get a second term. If there is a mass exodus, from marginal seats,
:16:55. > :16:59.which will determine the next Government, then was it really
:16:59. > :17:03.worth it, to introduce it with such haste, rather than put it into the
:17:03. > :17:07.next manifesto and have a country debate with it. Some risk for you
:17:07. > :17:10.to take the party? Lot of people think David Cameron is a PR guy,
:17:10. > :17:13.here is someone who was completely contrary to some opinion polls,
:17:13. > :17:16.standing out and saying this is where I stand. I think a lot of
:17:16. > :17:21.people, like with Margaret Thatcher in the past, they may not agree
:17:21. > :17:24.with him on this issue, but I think they will respect him for more it.
:17:24. > :17:27.The next election will not be about gay marriage t will be about the
:17:27. > :17:31.National Health Service, the economy and jobs. Just as civil
:17:31. > :17:35.partnerships were accepted, just as the controversy of Section 28 went
:17:35. > :17:39.away, this will go away, I do not believe this will be a big issue at
:17:39. > :17:44.the next election. We will see. Thank you very much.
:17:44. > :17:49.They buried the first two of the victims of the massacre at Sandy
:17:49. > :17:52.Hook Elementary School, boys of six years old. The country is still in
:17:53. > :17:55.shock, and political reaction is not much further than President
:17:55. > :18:00.Obama's question of visiting violence on America's children is
:18:00. > :18:05.the price of freedom. What to do about the semi-sacred state us of
:18:05. > :18:08.guns in parts of the US is the big question. One American lepblgs lace
:18:08. > :18:12.lator has delivered himself of the wisdom that he thinks that the
:18:12. > :18:22.reason for the tragedy at the school was because the principal
:18:22. > :18:29.
:18:29. > :18:34.The Second Amendment's association with freedom and rights is what
:18:34. > :18:38.lies at the heart of the debate on guns in the US. Forget the word
:18:38. > :18:43."militia" for many this is the guarantee against tyranny.
:18:43. > :18:48.Yet, the soul-searching after the Newtown massacre, has inevitably
:18:48. > :18:58.led to questions about the state of gun control in America. These
:18:58. > :19:05.tragedies must end. To end them we must change. We will be told that
:19:05. > :19:10.the causes of such violence are complex, and that is true. No
:19:10. > :19:16.single law, no set of laws, can eliminate evil from the world or
:19:16. > :19:23.prevent every senseless act of violence in our society. But that
:19:23. > :19:29.can't be an excuse for inaction. Surely we can do better than this?
:19:29. > :19:36.It has been tried before, after the assassinations of President Kennedy,
:19:36. > :19:41.Martin Luther King, and Robert Kennedy, the 1968 Begun Control Act,
:19:41. > :19:45.crew the right to own a gun from certain catagories of criminals,
:19:45. > :19:50.including drug addictss and those with severe mental disorders. Then
:19:50. > :19:54.there was the Brady Act, named after the former assistant to
:19:54. > :19:58.Ronald Regan, shot in an assassination ateplt tempt. It
:19:58. > :20:01.requires background checks -- attempt. It requires background
:20:01. > :20:05.checks, flagging up those with a criminal record or history of
:20:05. > :20:09.mental health problems. President Clinton also pushed a ban on
:20:09. > :20:14.assault weapons through Congress in 194. But that law was allowed to
:20:14. > :20:19.lapse a decade later. There are now calls to reinTate it T It is time
:20:19. > :20:24.to pass an enforcable and effective assault weapons ban, one that isn't
:20:24. > :20:29.riddled with loopholes and easy evasion. A previous ban expired in
:20:29. > :20:33.2004, and even though President Bush supported reinstating it,
:20:34. > :20:36.Congress never acted, that must change. Congress should also ban
:20:36. > :20:42.the high-capacity magazines that have been used again and again in
:20:42. > :20:46.these mass shootings. A senator has now promised to
:20:46. > :20:53.introduce the necessary legislation next year. But in Newtown, it is
:20:53. > :20:57.too late. We have the author of More Guns
:20:57. > :21:01.Less Crime, and believes areas that have experienced increased gun
:21:01. > :21:06.ownership have seen a drop in crime. He joins us from fill Delphiia.
:21:06. > :21:10.Do you think guns are good for America? I think guns make it
:21:10. > :21:14.easier for bad things to happen, but they also make it easier for
:21:14. > :21:17.people to defend themselves, and prevent bad things from happening.
:21:18. > :21:22.On that, more lives are saved as a result of people owning guns. You
:21:22. > :21:26.see this around the world. Every place around the world that we have
:21:26. > :21:32.crime data before and after a ban, shows that when you have a ban,
:21:32. > :21:35.murder rates go up by at least a little bit, and they often go up by
:21:35. > :21:39.dramatic amounts. There is a simple reason for that. That is, when you
:21:39. > :21:47.ban guns, it is the law-abiding, good citizens, who turn in their
:21:47. > :21:51.guns, not the criminals. We disarm law-abiding citizens with regard to
:21:51. > :21:55.criminals, you don't make it safer, you make it easier for criminals to
:21:55. > :22:00.commit their crimes. You do accept if you were designing a modern
:22:00. > :22:04.constitution for a modern country, you would not put in the right to
:22:04. > :22:07.bear arms? I don't see. That police are extremely important in
:22:07. > :22:10.protecting people. They are the single most important factor, but
:22:10. > :22:13.at the same time, the police can't be there all the time. They
:22:13. > :22:17.virtually always arrive on the crime scene after the crime has
:22:17. > :22:20.been committed. The question is, what do you advise someone who is
:22:20. > :22:24.being raped, or robbed or murdered to do when they are having to
:22:24. > :22:27.confront a criminal by themselves. Simply telling them to behave
:22:27. > :22:34.passively is not very good advice. It is actually much more likely to
:22:34. > :22:39.get you killed, or harmed, than having a gun for protection. Plus
:22:39. > :22:44.the fact that you have a gun can deter criminals. Take Britain and
:22:44. > :22:49.the United States, one interesting contrast is residential robbers,
:22:49. > :22:53.the rate at which burglars break into homes where the residents are
:22:53. > :22:57.home. Britain as twice the rate than the US. What is more telling,
:22:57. > :23:01.only 13% of the time when burglars occur in the United States are
:23:01. > :23:06.Americans in their homes. In Britain when it occurs, 59% of the
:23:06. > :23:10.time, when a burglar comes it is when people are in the home.
:23:10. > :23:14.American burglars spend a longer time casing the homes before they
:23:14. > :23:18.break in. The number one reason they gave, they spend twice as long
:23:18. > :23:21.casing homes than the British counterpart. We are going to trade
:23:21. > :23:27.statistic cystics, can you remind us precisely how many gun murders
:23:27. > :23:33.there were in the United States last year? There is more than in
:23:34. > :23:39.Britain. You have about 8,500. There were 550 murders all up in
:23:39. > :23:42.Britain last year? The murder rate for Britain compared to the United
:23:42. > :23:46.States was lower before you had gun control laws. That is true in other
:23:46. > :23:51.countries. When you have gun control, murder rates go up. There
:23:51. > :23:55.are lots of reasons why murder rates vary across countries.
:23:55. > :23:59.this argument it would have been a good thing had the headteacher and
:23:59. > :24:04.the teachers at that school, where this awful tragedy happened last
:24:04. > :24:10.Friday, had they been armed, it would have been better, would it?
:24:10. > :24:13.think so. Look, there is one phenomenon we see here, all the
:24:13. > :24:17.multiple victim public shootings in the United States, since at least
:24:17. > :24:20.1950, with one exception, and all the multiple victim public
:24:21. > :24:25.shootings in Europe, even in Switzerland, have all he occurred
:24:25. > :24:30.where guns are banned. In Switzerland it is very easy to get,
:24:30. > :24:34.carry a concealed handgun, half the time you don't need a permit, the
:24:34. > :24:40.other half it is easy to get a permit. There is a couple of big
:24:40. > :24:43.multiple shooting victims in Switzerland. Each has occurred,
:24:43. > :24:49.where tiny areas where guns aren't aed load. One example from the
:24:49. > :24:52.United States. This is just like all the others, in, we had the
:24:52. > :24:56.Aurora movie theatre shooting in July. There were seven movie
:24:56. > :24:59.theatres within a 20-minute drive of the killer's apartment, only one
:24:59. > :25:03.banned guns. The killer didn't go to the movie theatre that was
:25:03. > :25:09.closest to his home, he didn't go to the largest one, there was one
:25:09. > :25:14.movie theatre that brags about having the largest auditoriums in
:25:14. > :25:17.the state. Instead he went to the single movie theatre that banned
:25:17. > :25:22.concealed handguns, and prevented people from defending themselves.
:25:22. > :25:26.The simple way to think about this, God forbid, some violent criminal
:25:26. > :25:32.was threatening you and your family, would you feel safer putting a sign
:25:32. > :25:34.in your front yard saying this home is a gun-free zone. Would that stop
:25:34. > :25:39.the criminal attacking you there. Nobody would do that. Would you put
:25:39. > :25:48.a sign like that in front of your home. Thank you.
:25:48. > :25:52.Now Lionel Schriver wrote the novel We Need To Talk About Kevin, about
:25:52. > :25:57.massacre in a school. Can we talk about this. You were born in the
:25:57. > :26:01.states, you are about to take British citizenship? Definitely.
:26:01. > :26:05.you continue your self-improvement. With more stories like this,
:26:05. > :26:15.definitely. Do you understand why the gun has got this special place
:26:15. > :26:16.
:26:16. > :26:21.in American culture? It runs very deep in the history. I had to
:26:21. > :26:26.memorise part of the declaration of independence in junior high school,
:26:26. > :26:33.most importantly that bit about how the state governs at the consent of
:26:33. > :26:36.the governed, and it is up to the governed, to consent or withdraw it.
:26:36. > :26:43.And abolish the Government and start another one. The first time
:26:43. > :26:47.we did that, we did that violently. Schoolchildren learn this, that if
:26:47. > :26:53.you don't like your Government, you essentially have the right, the
:26:53. > :26:57.moral right to overthrow it. I don't think it is an exaggeration
:26:57. > :27:02.to say there is an element of the the gun right's lobby that really
:27:02. > :27:09.has to do with, in the back of their minds, if push comes to shove,
:27:09. > :27:12.we should be able to overthrow the Government by force. But this is a
:27:12. > :27:15.mature, stable democracy, there is no chance of the state being
:27:15. > :27:22.overthrown? Of course not, it is a fantasy. That is one of the things
:27:22. > :27:26.that is a little odd about it. I mean, there have been occasions
:27:26. > :27:36.where citizens tried to withdraw their consent, and it didn't work
:27:36. > :27:38.
:27:38. > :27:41.out very well. Look at Wacko, Timothy McVai, killed by lethal in-
:27:41. > :27:46.- McVeigh, killed by lethal injection, it is an absurdty. There
:27:46. > :27:49.is an element in the United States that is very uncomfortable with the
:27:49. > :27:58.states, suspicious, and even hostile. And feels that rather than
:27:58. > :28:01.the state needing to have that classic monopoly on violence, that
:28:01. > :28:06.that the citizen needs to be armed to counter balance the power of the
:28:06. > :28:13.state. When you hear an argument like the one we have just heard
:28:13. > :28:16.there, put pretty cogently by that fella in Philadelphia, about people
:28:17. > :28:19.protecting themselves, do you understand that? Yes, I do. I
:28:19. > :28:25.understand the primitive need to defend yourself, especially in the
:28:25. > :28:28.country where lots of other people have guns. It does compound itself.
:28:28. > :28:35.If many other people in your surround are armed, then you feel
:28:35. > :28:39.like a fool not to be. Is there something uniquely man nef lent
:28:39. > :28:48.about Americans? -- Uniquely menacing as an environment? No, I
:28:48. > :28:52.don't think so. What's behind it? think the gun has become an emblem
:28:52. > :28:57.of that unfettered, individual liberty, that Americans are told
:28:57. > :29:05.over and over again, that they enjoy. But they don't really have.
:29:05. > :29:10.That makes the gun even more important. The truth is Americans
:29:10. > :29:15.are as overtaxed and overregulated and controlled with this, that and
:29:15. > :29:21.the other thing, as any other country. They are told all the time
:29:21. > :29:31.they are free. They don't feel free, I think the gun has a way of giving
:29:31. > :29:35.
:29:35. > :29:39.you that sensation of real liberty. Guns convey power. They convey so
:29:39. > :29:43.much power, when you think about it, all you can get people to do, if
:29:43. > :29:49.you have one, take off their clothes, let you into their house,
:29:49. > :29:55.give you all their money. It's amazing that every American doesn't
:29:55. > :29:58.have a gun. Just 0 to talk briefly about this awful -- just to talk
:29:58. > :30:04.briefly about this awful killing. Given the subject matter of your
:30:04. > :30:13.own novel, We Need To Talk About Kevin what did you conclude when
:30:13. > :30:18.you saw what happened? Mmm. Nothing. That's what's so difficult
:30:18. > :30:22.about these things, is they believe you stymied. There is nothing to
:30:22. > :30:26.conclude, you know, there has been, one of the reasons we are talking
:30:26. > :30:32.about gun control, is that it's one of the only things to, one of the
:30:32. > :30:37.only lessons to draw, because otherwise you just are left with
:30:37. > :30:44.the capacity of human beings, especially unbalanced ones, in this
:30:44. > :30:48.case, for man nef lens, and there is nothing to say. I was approached
:30:48. > :30:54.by countless newspapers over the weekend to write for them. I had to
:30:54. > :31:01.turn them down, partly out of a sense of humility. Incapacity.
:31:01. > :31:07.felt you could say nothing? I could say nothing.
:31:07. > :31:12.The detail about this killing that most upset me, was the fact that
:31:12. > :31:21.these little children were shot multiple times, and with accuracy,
:31:21. > :31:27.to absolutely make sure they were dead. My imagining of most people
:31:27. > :31:30.who fantasise about this kind of an incident, ahead of time, once they
:31:31. > :31:35.get there, I don't think it usually feels the way they think it is
:31:35. > :31:40.going to. That gives them some kind of pause. But this guy, there was
:31:40. > :31:45.no pause, and once he was actually putting a gun into a six-year-old's
:31:45. > :31:48.face, he didn't hesitate. That just floors me.
:31:48. > :31:52.Thank you. There were protests again tonight
:31:52. > :31:55.in Northern Ireland, where loyalists dream of red, white and
:31:55. > :31:59.blue Christmas. One police officer was injured. They are still
:31:59. > :32:03.agrieved, the loyalists, at the decision by Belfast City Council
:32:03. > :32:06.that the Union Flag is only to be flown on designated days rather
:32:06. > :32:09.than year-round. There has been violence associated with some of
:32:09. > :32:13.these protests, but the majority are passing off peacefully. In the
:32:13. > :32:22.context of the province's history, that in itself, may be significant.
:32:22. > :32:27.We report from there. They streamed into the city senter
:32:27. > :32:31.from their housing estates. A community bereft. The flagpole
:32:31. > :32:37.above Belfast City Hall, striped of the Union Flag. Only to return on
:32:37. > :32:42.select days, like the Queen's birthday. Attention, attention,
:32:42. > :32:49.please move now, failure to move, may make you liable to arrest.
:32:49. > :32:54.Christmas shoppers looked on, then carried on. But Northern Ireland's
:32:54. > :32:59.working-class Protestants are used to not fitting in. While Belfast
:32:59. > :33:07.bustles with progress and promise, they feel left behind, a sense of
:33:07. > :33:11.abandonment, that has made the flag dispute so potent. Our British
:33:11. > :33:15.identity is being eroded and undermined at every turn. It is
:33:15. > :33:19.very frustrating for young people to see all aspects of the culture.
:33:19. > :33:24.Our very identity as British citizens is under attack.
:33:24. > :33:28.anguish over this issue shows it is about far more than what is or
:33:28. > :33:33.isn't flying over City Hall here. For loyalists, the Union Flag is a
:33:33. > :33:41.symbol of what binds them to the rest of us in the United Kingdom
:33:41. > :33:47.its remove, they say, is prove that all of that is --. Its removal,
:33:47. > :33:51.they say, is proof that all of that is at risk. The City Hall, once a
:33:51. > :33:56.symbol of power, voted to take down the flag. Catholic councillors
:33:56. > :34:00.might have seen it gone for good, but accepted a compromise to fly it
:34:00. > :34:04.on selected days. A community worker is trying to help fellow
:34:04. > :34:08.loyalists deal with their loss. A former paramilitary, he believes
:34:08. > :34:11.his old Republican enemies have gone too far. We were promised a
:34:11. > :34:14.dividend from the peace, and the only dividend we have got from the
:34:14. > :34:19.peace is a continual erosion of our Britishness. The Republicans are
:34:19. > :34:22.playing this game, and the game is to a different type of war, a
:34:22. > :34:26.totally different type of war, it is war. It is a war of removing
:34:26. > :34:31.everything we hold dear, so they can gain plaudits in their
:34:31. > :34:36.community for doing that. Since the vote was taken, loyalist
:34:36. > :34:39.anger has been expressed in time- honoured ways. Members of the
:34:39. > :34:44.Alliance Party, that brokered the flag compromise have been
:34:44. > :34:50.threatened. Their offices and homes attacked. A petrol bomb was thrown
:34:50. > :34:54.into a police woman's car, she was lucky to get out. Tonight, another
:34:54. > :34:59.police officer was injured in Belfast, as hundreds of
:34:59. > :35:08.demonstrators blocked roads. But, over the last week, most of the
:35:08. > :35:13.protests have been peaceful. The word "enclave" might have been
:35:13. > :35:16.invented for this place. Themed in by giant peace walls, the
:35:16. > :35:20.inhabitants describe themselves as prisoners. I will take you to my
:35:20. > :35:25.house, show you a good example of where we have been attacked. Emma
:35:25. > :35:31.shows me the broken glass and China that she says is regularly hurled
:35:31. > :35:35.in from the surrounding nationalist estates. In interface areas it is
:35:35. > :35:40.two-way traffic. But like many residents here, Emma has had enough.
:35:40. > :35:44.My house of petroled bombed on the 1st July last year. There was kids
:35:44. > :35:48.stuff along here. We had a trampoline there, there was over
:35:48. > :35:53.�250 worth of damage. Was anyone in the garden? I was in the kitchen.
:35:53. > :35:58.The petrol bombing of her garden while her two children were at home,
:35:58. > :36:02.has driven her to leave. Danny is also look to go move.
:36:02. > :36:06.Believing her two daughters, playing here with their cousin,
:36:06. > :36:09.aren't safe. The flag issue has seen her join the protests for the
:36:09. > :36:14.first time ever. She's not interested in politics, but she
:36:14. > :36:18.says it is time for people like her to speak out. I'm not going to
:36:18. > :36:22.stand and argue with somebody over a flag, or over a religion, you
:36:22. > :36:28.know, I don't believe in that. I sit in the house just with the kids
:36:28. > :36:32.and that's it. What's made you go out and take part in protests on
:36:32. > :36:36.this issue? The actual just pure anger over what is being said. We
:36:36. > :36:42.are being put down, told you aren't British, you aren't this, you can't
:36:42. > :36:45.have your flag. What we are putting up with in the area. I mean not
:36:45. > :36:49.being able to let your kids out and play. That is a constant thing.
:36:49. > :36:53.That has been getting worse. This time of year we shouldn't have to
:36:53. > :36:57.worry about it. # God save our glorious Queen
:36:57. > :37:00.# God save our Queen The street demonstrations are
:37:00. > :37:06.giving such people a voice. They are largely organised on social
:37:06. > :37:11.media. Crowds gather quickly, roads are closed, and they move on. One
:37:11. > :37:15.of those taking part is Jamie. He's unusual, a young loyalist, willing
:37:16. > :37:19.to be interviewed, without covering his face. He wants to go into
:37:19. > :37:22.politics. The mainstream unionist political parties have to reconnect
:37:22. > :37:28.with the British community, especially the young people. They
:37:28. > :37:32.have to give them some sort of avenue to express these concerns
:37:32. > :37:36.and grievances. We are not getting that at the moment. We don't feel,
:37:36. > :37:38.especially young people, there is strong representations from the
:37:39. > :37:42.main unionist parties at Stormont, we feel Stormont is failing us.
:37:42. > :37:50.Through the protests, people like myself are trying to encourage all
:37:50. > :37:57.young people to get involved politically.
:37:57. > :38:01.In a city where some communities remain in tribes, Reverend Chris
:38:01. > :38:04.Hudson gets about. The peace we have here in Northern Ireland is
:38:04. > :38:09.not the property of politicians, nor the property of paramilitaries,
:38:09. > :38:13.it is the property of all of us. From a republican family in Dublin,
:38:13. > :38:17.he's a trusted go-between for British loyalism. His Unitarian
:38:17. > :38:23.church, of course, supports gay marriage, so he's not one to give
:38:23. > :38:30.up on a cause. And sees signs of change. What we do need to do is
:38:30. > :38:32.engage with those who are feeling hurt and an grow. We can't just,
:38:32. > :38:36.you know, disassociate ourselves from them, and say they are the
:38:36. > :38:44.rabble, they are the thugs. We have got to engage with them. The people
:38:44. > :38:48.I speak to, within loyalism, people that are seeing and regarded as
:38:48. > :38:53.significant in their communities, I find that they are willing to
:38:53. > :38:57.engage on a lot of different levels. On the level of inclusiveness,
:38:57. > :39:02.reconciliation, they are willing to look and talk to the other
:39:02. > :39:06.community, and see how they can find common ground.
:39:06. > :39:12.If loyalists have felt cornered, the recent census should have given
:39:12. > :39:15.pause. The Catholic population might be rising at a faster rate,
:39:15. > :39:21.but, middle-class Catholics, in particular, are prospering, they
:39:21. > :39:26.are doing it as citizens of the UK, not Ireland. Jim Wilson wants young
:39:26. > :39:30.loyalists to start catching up. The first step is to get more of them
:39:30. > :39:33.to vote. Our community has got so desperate in the sense that nothing
:39:33. > :39:36.has been happening for them, nothing is being done for them.
:39:36. > :39:41.They have lost faith in their politicians and the willing to out
:39:41. > :39:45.and vote, and some young lads have lost the will to register to vote.
:39:45. > :39:48.The difficulty in the City Hall is that is the only way we will get it
:39:48. > :39:52.back is getting kids to register to vote and come out and vote. They
:39:52. > :39:57.need good leadership. Normally when you hear from loyalism, it is
:39:57. > :40:01.always bad news, rage and rioting. As a community, it remains insecure
:40:01. > :40:07.and angry. But with these flag protests, I think you are starting
:40:07. > :40:13.to see some of that being expressed differently. Traditions pass
:40:13. > :40:17.through the generations here. So do grievances. And if loyalists can
:40:17. > :40:21.choose political engagment over despair, and respond constructively
:40:21. > :40:27.to fresh calls to end the protests, they might have a chance to be
:40:27. > :40:34.heard. Our latest audience research shows
:40:34. > :40:38.that for the very first time, a nice carddy and a pair of slippers
:40:38. > :40:48.have been eclipsed as Newsnight's viewers' most requested Christmas
:40:48. > :40:49.
:40:49. > :40:59.present. As supermarkets and retail outlets reveal that the onsie are
:40:59. > :41:01.
:41:01. > :41:05.the most popular item. Where this lack of taste came from is a
:41:05. > :41:10.mystery, not to Mr Smith. At this special time of year,
:41:10. > :41:18.what's better than bundling up warm and cosy with that certain someone,
:41:18. > :41:28.as part of a poor Newsnight reconstruction.
:41:28. > :41:35.And what has Santa brought this lucky pair? Onesies.
:41:35. > :41:41.That's right, kids, forget the tangerine and hoola hoop, the thing
:41:41. > :41:45.the stars are finding under the tree, is a one-piece garment in
:41:45. > :41:48.luxurious man made fibres. Lounging
:41:48. > :41:52.# Lounging # Mellow out and lounging
:41:52. > :41:58.I know what you are thinking, is this new fangled loungewear really
:41:58. > :42:02.so different from the grim old long john, and the surgical stocking.
:42:02. > :42:06.many people have told me they will never wear it. And I Geoff them one,
:42:06. > :42:10.and they get one, and -- I give them one, and they get one, and
:42:10. > :42:15.they come back and say they are very, very sorry, it is the most
:42:15. > :42:20.comfortable piece of clothing they have ever tried on.
:42:20. > :42:25.Do you like facts about retail? Well, one high street chain told us
:42:25. > :42:28.their sales of onesies was up almost 600% compared to last year.
:42:28. > :42:32.Another said they have sold a onesie a minute, since they were
:42:32. > :42:36.launched two months ago. Maybe in the current economic environment
:42:37. > :42:40.people love the idea of wearing a onesie, because it is sort of, yes,
:42:40. > :42:43.very child-like, almost babyish, you put it on, it is nice and cosy,
:42:43. > :42:53.there is nothing to worry about, maybe it is like a security blanke.
:42:53. > :42:55.
:42:55. > :42:59.I think some of our readers probably love a onesie. They are
:42:59. > :43:02.very warm, comfortable and if you are trying to save on the heating
:43:02. > :43:09.bills. They don't look great. you think my hip looks odd, look at
:43:09. > :43:17.the rest of me! Let us now praise famous men, in tights. Role models
:43:17. > :43:21.like TV's John Noakes have shown us the all-in-one can be as elegant as
:43:21. > :43:27.practical. Winston Churchill himself banished the mystery of
:43:27. > :43:32.messy shirt tails, with his customised siren suit. We are not
:43:32. > :43:36.here to give political advice, if we were, we might be saying to
:43:37. > :43:40.these fellas, chill out and snuggle down. They are so phenomenally
:43:40. > :43:44.popular, everybody can wear one, everybody looks equally rubbish in
:43:44. > :43:48.them, you don't worry what you look like. They are incredibly
:43:48. > :43:51.comfortable. You could go back ten years ago and people would say they
:43:51. > :43:54.never would wear tracksuit bottoms, once you do, they are too
:43:54. > :44:02.comfortable not to wear them. So, enjoy. It is something that people
:44:02. > :44:07.want, but it takes them a bit of time to get used to it. I guess the
:44:07. > :44:13.woman from Cosmo hasn't tried one on yet. When you first try them on
:44:13. > :44:18.it is difficult to take off. The One Nation, on Newsnight? You
:44:18. > :44:28.are laughing now, I mean that metaphorically, but at least you
:44:28. > :44:28.
:44:29. > :44:38.are forewarned for when you unwrap one next week! Right, tomorrow
:44:39. > :45:00.
:45:00. > :45:05.morning's front pages now. The That's it for tonight. $500 million
:45:05. > :45:09.of space exploration ended in a double crash on the moon about 45
:45:09. > :45:15.minutes ago. NASA organised for two spacecraft, each about the size of