:00:16. > :00:21.BBC in chaos, the tabloid headline seems to have been right. The
:00:21. > :00:25.management of Britain's biggest cultural organisation is indeed
:00:25. > :00:30.chaotic. The independent inquiry has disclosed incompetence,
:00:30. > :00:34.cavalier decision-make, buck- passing and extraordinary absent-
:00:34. > :00:38.mindedness. Tonight we talk to the acting director-general of the BBC
:00:38. > :00:42.about how the organisation hopes to win back trust after the Savile
:00:42. > :00:45.scandal, and how he thinks it can go forward without sacking a single
:00:45. > :00:48.person responsible for the mess. Why does Britain have the highest
:00:48. > :00:52.rate of teenage pregnancies in western Europe. An influential
:00:52. > :00:56.Conservative MP thinks it is time for all schools to have to teach
:00:56. > :01:01.young people about relationships, and for this young mum, the price
:01:01. > :01:05.of becoming a parent. I wouldn't regret a molt with her, but I would
:01:05. > :01:11.say, if I had my time with her, and I could choose the timing, I would
:01:11. > :01:21.choose it for definitely later on. How much later on? Sorry? Ten years,
:01:21. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:27.maybe? These last few weeks have not been
:01:27. > :01:32.happy ones on Newsnight. Senior figures on this programme made not
:01:32. > :01:36.one, but two bad judgments. First, not broadcasting an investigation
:01:36. > :01:39.into Jimmy Savile, and then, putting out another in which basic
:01:39. > :01:43.journalistic checks hadn't been made.
:01:43. > :01:47.Today the BBC removed the editor and deputy editor concerned, after
:01:47. > :01:50.two investigations that tried to discover how the mistakes had been
:01:50. > :01:55.made. Some pretty scathing conclusions were reached, which the
:01:55. > :01:59.organisation says will be acted upon. Yet, no sackings. Because it
:01:59. > :02:03.seems odd for us to try to report on ourselves, we have invited James
:02:03. > :02:09.Robbins to do so. The BBC was braced for heavy
:02:09. > :02:16.criticism, that is what it got. Nick Pollard found chaos, confusion,
:02:16. > :02:19.disarray, disru trust. The biggest which for his inquiry, is why did
:02:19. > :02:23.Newsnight drop an investigation into Jimmy Savile as a paedophile,
:02:23. > :02:28.while the BBC did broadcast a series of tribute programmes.
:02:28. > :02:31.the full force of the row broke thisy, the BBC management system
:02:31. > :02:36.proved completely incapable of dealing with T the level of Kay a
:02:36. > :02:40.confusion was even greater than was apparent at the time. Several --
:02:40. > :02:43.chaos and confusion was even greater than the was apparent at
:02:43. > :02:46.the time. Several people were trying to get the truth of the
:02:46. > :02:49.Savile story, but leadership and organisation seemed to be in short
:02:49. > :02:53.supply. Two days after the death of Jimmy Savile, Newsnight began its
:02:53. > :02:56.investigation. The reporter was Liz Mackean and the producer, Meirion
:02:56. > :03:01.Jones, but then, after almost six weeks of investigation, the story
:03:01. > :03:05.was dropped by Newsnight editor, Peter Rippon. More than nine months
:03:05. > :03:10.later, ITV broadcast its own investigation into Savile. The
:03:10. > :03:14.crisis over the BBC decision to sit on the story exploded. Following
:03:14. > :03:19.that ITV programme, many more allegations of sexual abuse emerged.
:03:19. > :03:25.The Metropolitan Police launched a formal criminal investigation
:03:25. > :03:29.Operation Yewtree. The BBC started its own series of inquiries,
:03:29. > :03:32.today's Pollard Report is crucial in the outcome. Meanwhile,
:03:32. > :03:35.Newsnight editor, Peter Rippon, stepped aside from his job. Last
:03:35. > :03:39.month the Director General resigned, after a separate Newsnight report,
:03:39. > :03:42.that was broadcast, wrongly accused a leading Conservative of child sex
:03:42. > :03:47.abuse. It was the true story about Savile Newsnight dropped, that
:03:47. > :03:51.started the havoc. The Newsnight investigators got the
:03:51. > :03:55.story right. They had found clear and compelling evidence that Jimmy
:03:55. > :03:59.Savile was a paedophile. The decision by their editor to drop
:03:59. > :04:03.the original investigation was clearly flawed, and the way it was
:04:03. > :04:08.taken was wrong. Though I believe it was done in good faith. It was
:04:08. > :04:11.not done to protect the Savile tribute programmes, or for any
:04:11. > :04:16.improper reason. The Newsnight editor's most serious mistake was
:04:16. > :04:18.that he didn't look properly at the evidence before deciding to drop
:04:18. > :04:23.the story. It's not surprise, therefore, that he didn't
:04:23. > :04:27.understand the evidence that he had, and that was to cause enormous
:04:27. > :04:34.confusion in the months to come. Peter Rippon has now been removed
:04:34. > :04:38.as editor of Newsnight, he will a, apparently -- he will, apparently,
:04:38. > :04:43.get another BBC job. The two journalists involved in the story
:04:43. > :04:48.feel vindicated. Pollard said they were right about the programme, and
:04:48. > :04:52.the programme could have released the story almost a year before IVT
:04:52. > :04:56.I think the decision to drop our story was a breach of the duty to
:04:56. > :05:01.the women who trusted us to tell us that Jimmy Savile was a paedophile.
:05:01. > :05:07.Many found it difficult to share their experiences as vulnerable
:05:07. > :05:12.girls. Our editor didn't watch the main interview with our witness.
:05:12. > :05:17.Nick Pollard did, and found her credible and compelling, as did we.
:05:17. > :05:22.But if people expected a raft of sackings today, that is not the BBC
:05:22. > :05:26.response. Just one executive has fallen on his sword. Resigning,
:05:26. > :05:31.ahead of his expected retirement next year. He's Steve Mitchell,
:05:31. > :05:34.deputy Head of News, and Peter Rippon's immediate boss. Nick
:05:34. > :05:39.Pollard criticises him heavily, saying he can't understand Mr
:05:39. > :05:43.Mitchell's decision to take the Newsnight Savile inquiry off the
:05:43. > :05:47.BBC's own internal watch list, which flags up, across the BBC,
:05:47. > :05:51.programmes that might carry an element of risk. Steve Mitchell's
:05:51. > :05:55.decisions matter, because if the investigation had stayed on the
:05:55. > :05:58.list, Nick Pollard says, it could have opened the door for
:05:58. > :06:00.appropriate conversations among senior BBC management, about the
:06:00. > :06:06.nature of the Newsnight investigation and the drib tuet
:06:06. > :06:09.programmes. -- tribute programmes. By contrast,
:06:09. > :06:14.Steve Mitchell's boss, Boaden borbgsd is criticised, but survives.
:06:14. > :06:18.One criticism of her, raising the Newsnight Savile investigation with
:06:18. > :06:21.George Entwistle at an awards lunch, was too casual, too fleeting and
:06:21. > :06:24.left much uncertainty about the outcome. But the Pollard report
:06:24. > :06:28.find that is she did not exert undue pressure on Peter Rippon,
:06:28. > :06:31.before he dropped the story. So did the BBC do enough to help the
:06:31. > :06:34.police? Nick Pollard also makes clear the Newsnight evidence
:06:34. > :06:39.against Jimmy Savile should have been passed to the police. In fact,
:06:39. > :06:43.it wasn't for ten months. Scotland Yard say 450 alleged
:06:43. > :06:47.victims of Savile have now come forward. 80% were children, or
:06:47. > :06:51.young people at the time. The lawyer for some of them says BBC
:06:51. > :06:57.delay alerting the police has hurt. What it does show is that there was
:06:57. > :07:00.12 months of very, very unnecessary delay, and what we ask ourselves,
:07:00. > :07:04.what would have happened if the exposure documentary had not gone
:07:04. > :07:08.out. 12 months is a very long time in the suffering of these victims.
:07:08. > :07:13.I know that some of them have taken a long time to air their stories.
:07:13. > :07:16.But once they have obtained the courage to do so, they really need
:07:16. > :07:21.closure as quickly as possible. Where does this leave wider
:07:21. > :07:25.questions about the BBC and Savile? Pollard does quote internal BBC e-
:07:25. > :07:30.mails about tribute programmes, immediately after his death. One
:07:30. > :07:34.talks about the "darker side of the story". That whole culture of
:07:34. > :07:38.silence or near silence about Savile, stretches back decades. It
:07:38. > :07:40.is still being investigated. start tonight with a
:07:40. > :07:44.statement...Today The BBC Trust published a separate report on the
:07:45. > :07:48.Newsnight film that led to Lord McAlpine being wrongly named as a
:07:48. > :07:53.paedophile. The trustees found that it followed largely from a failure
:07:53. > :07:57.by members of the team to follow the BBC's own editorial guidelines.
:07:57. > :08:02.So does the BBC really get the scale of today's criticism? And
:08:02. > :08:08.what does it have to do now to restore its most precious commodity.
:08:08. > :08:12.The trust of BBC audiences, the license fee payers.
:08:12. > :08:17.As well as making programmes, the BBC commissions regular polling
:08:17. > :08:24.about audience responses. Recently, it has been tracking a dein trust
:08:24. > :08:29.of the BBC. Marked -- a decline in trust of the BBC. Marked out of ten,
:08:29. > :08:33.the audiences gave an average of 6.7 for this year, it peaked at 6.8
:08:33. > :08:40.after the Olympics, as the present crisis broke, it fell to a low of
:08:40. > :08:43.6.2 in October, and a further low of 6 in November. The license fee
:08:43. > :08:48.payers' trust has been falling in the last few months, do you think
:08:48. > :08:53.this will draw a line under all this, how will you restore trust
:08:53. > :08:58.and has it got serious long-term implications for the BBC? Trust in
:08:58. > :09:04.the BBC has undoubtedly been affected by what has happened. It
:09:04. > :09:08.still remains, according to most of the evidence I have seen,
:09:08. > :09:12.extraordinarily high, and trust in the BBC remains greater than that
:09:12. > :09:16.in any other news organisation. But we can't be complacent about that,
:09:16. > :09:22.and we have to do everything we can to rebuild trust to the level ofs
:09:22. > :09:25.which it has been at historically. Today, the independent member of
:09:26. > :09:30.the BBC's executive board laid out her view of the task ahead.
:09:30. > :09:35.raises basic questions about the way we work, how we make decisions,
:09:35. > :09:38.how we communicate, and indeed questions about leadership. We will
:09:38. > :09:42.take action, we will take action within news, to address the
:09:42. > :09:47.specific challenges raised. And we will take action more widely, to
:09:47. > :09:51.create the conditions within which the BBC's long and honourable
:09:51. > :09:55.tradition of creative, confident, high-quality journalism and
:09:55. > :09:59.programme-making can continue. So, will today prove a watershed
:09:59. > :10:05.moment for the BBC? Well, it could. But Nick Pollard in his report
:10:05. > :10:10.calls for urgent action. Above all he blames a critical lack of
:10:10. > :10:13.leadership, and says the BBC's news and editorial management needs to
:10:13. > :10:18.be reviewed. The BBC's acting Director General,
:10:18. > :10:21.Tim Davie, is here. First off, Nick Pollard concludes that the
:10:21. > :10:25.Newsnight evidence on Jimmy Savile's paedophilia should have
:10:25. > :10:28.been passed to the police. You have heard about the trauma one of the
:10:28. > :10:32.lawyers representing those women says it has caused, not to have
:10:32. > :10:38.done so, do you want to offer an apology for the fact that it wasn't
:10:38. > :10:42.passed on at the time? I think we absolutely regret that information
:10:42. > :10:46.wasn't passed on. What is clear, and Nick Pollard made this clear in
:10:46. > :10:52.his statements today, was, at the time, the decisions were made in
:10:52. > :10:55.good faith, in terms of what people thought the police knew. There were
:10:55. > :10:58.mistakes made. In terms of the latest information flow between the
:10:58. > :11:01.police and ourselves on the current cases, I would say we are making
:11:01. > :11:07.very, very good progress in that regard. As far as that particular
:11:07. > :11:12.case you would like to apologise? Absolutely.
:11:12. > :11:15.In terms of rebuilding trust, which is clearly the key thing here, how
:11:15. > :11:21.on earth will you do that when many of the same people are still in
:11:21. > :11:25.post? I think the first thing is, let's talk about what would build
:11:25. > :11:30.trust back for the BBC. We have got a very good record of actually
:11:30. > :11:34.doing that. Actually Jeremy, versus other institutions over the last
:11:34. > :11:39.four years, we have seen consistent good numbers, and growing trust in
:11:39. > :11:42.the BBC. How we have done that is by delivering flawless programming,
:11:42. > :11:46.so absolutely delivering the programmes. That is the first thing,
:11:46. > :11:50.I don't think it is mainly about what executives are in or out, it
:11:50. > :11:55.is that we are delivering the programme, it is not to say they
:11:55. > :11:59.are sacked. Nobody has been? This for any organisation. The answer to
:11:59. > :12:03.the question is yes or no, has anyone been sacked? The Director
:12:03. > :12:09.General has resigned. Before the report was fub illusioned? Directly
:12:09. > :12:13.as a -- Published? Directly as a result of the organisation. He gets
:12:13. > :12:15.a big pay out? We have had another very senior person in the news
:12:15. > :12:19.organisation offer their resignation. This is Steve Mitchell,
:12:19. > :12:23.who is actually, apparently, retiring rather than resigning?
:12:23. > :12:28.has offered his resignation today. Is he ever going to be back in the
:12:28. > :12:33.office? He will come back and hand over his job, but he is resigning.
:12:33. > :12:36.It is as simple as that. He's leaving the BBC. No ambiguity.
:12:36. > :12:41.statement says he's retiring? Someone who has been doing 38
:12:41. > :12:44.service of the BBC, once they resign, they are, by definition,
:12:44. > :12:48.retiring from their period at the BBC. There is a notice period, will
:12:48. > :12:51.he be working then? He will hand over his job during the notice
:12:51. > :12:54.period. How long is that notice period? Six month. He will still be
:12:54. > :12:58.working for a further six months a being paid for a further six
:12:58. > :13:01.months? And then leave, absolutely. At the same level of
:13:01. > :13:05.responsibility? Absolutely. continues with the same level of
:13:05. > :13:09.responsibility, drawing the same salary, for six months, and then he
:13:09. > :13:13.retires on a BBC pension? He leaves the BBC and retires on a BBC
:13:13. > :13:18.pension, absolutely. Would you describe that as a resignation,
:13:18. > :13:22.retirement or a sacking? I would say he has decided to leave the BBC
:13:22. > :13:27.and he has resigned. Can we look at the question of Helen Boaden, head
:13:28. > :13:31.of the news division, under whom confidence will have to be restored.
:13:31. > :13:41.Lord Patten said something in the management of the news division had
:13:41. > :13:45.gone Kay youthically wrong. How can it -- chaoticly wrong --
:13:45. > :13:51.chaoticically wrong. How can it be restored? The key accusation is
:13:51. > :13:54.senior management had worked to cover up a story. That is not what
:13:55. > :13:59.Pollard says, he acquits them of that? Well said, that is what I'm
:13:59. > :14:03.talking about. He says there is complete chaos? He said the
:14:03. > :14:07.handling of the blog, the way the situation developed, that was
:14:07. > :14:10.chaotic, I accept that, absolutely. He said people did not act in bad
:14:10. > :14:19.faith. He said a lot of people couldn't remember why they had done
:14:19. > :14:24.things. Right, but what I would say to everyone, read the report.
:14:24. > :14:33.Success is not how many people I dismiss, it is about making a fair
:14:33. > :14:40.and proper judgment on the facts in front of me. And make sure the BBC
:14:40. > :14:45.is able to rebuild trust. When the BBC, in Lord Patten's words, has
:14:45. > :14:48."gone wrong", it just be restored like that? That is why we have lost
:14:49. > :14:52.our Editor in Chief, the leader of the whole organisation has resigned.
:14:52. > :14:55.You can't get more fundamental than that in terms of changing the
:14:55. > :15:04.organisation. He resigned, as we agreed, before either of the
:15:04. > :15:06.reports was published? He resigned in response to these events. We
:15:06. > :15:10.have the head of the news department tomorrow, back in
:15:10. > :15:14.business, doing exactly what she did before.
:15:14. > :15:17.Absolutely not. She has been told to change has she? All of the
:15:17. > :15:20.management, myself included, absolutely see this report as a
:15:20. > :15:26.wake-up call in terms of the culture of the BBC and how we work.
:15:26. > :15:31.The idea that you have to sack someone to lead to cultural change,
:15:31. > :15:35.I think, is flawed. Has she been told to do her job differently
:15:35. > :15:39.then? All of us in the senior management of the BBC, if you look
:15:39. > :15:42.at the scale of the criticism, injure me the idea we turn up to
:15:42. > :15:46.work and keep doing what we are doing is not acceptable. As a
:15:46. > :15:50.leader of the BBC, I do think we have to change. What will she do
:15:50. > :15:54.differently? I won't make it personal, this is not just about
:15:54. > :15:59.one leader, it is about how we lead across the BBC. What about the
:15:59. > :16:02.editor of Newsnight, he hasn't been sacked, he is paid tomorrow the
:16:02. > :16:06.same as yesterday? I'm not dismissing the editor of Newsnight,
:16:06. > :16:11.he's moving to another role in the BBC. With no editorial
:16:11. > :16:15.responsibility, what is this job he's going to? We haven't agreed a
:16:15. > :16:19.job for him yet. You haven't invented him a job yet? We are not
:16:19. > :16:22.inventing any jobs. But he gets the same salary without the same
:16:22. > :16:26.responsibility? If you move jobs you don't have the same
:16:26. > :16:30.responsibility. I can't be clearer, my job is not to just dismiss
:16:30. > :16:34.people, my job is to make a fair and balanced assessment of the
:16:34. > :16:37.facts. We have lost the Director General in this process, we all
:16:37. > :16:42.need to accept change, the only way to change is to change the culture,
:16:42. > :16:46.and that is not going to be done, however many people we call to
:16:46. > :16:50.dismiss, it will be done by people like me, leading the organisation,
:16:50. > :16:52.and changing the culture. Let's look at it from the other end,
:16:52. > :16:58.Helen Boaden offered her resignation to George Entwistle, he
:16:58. > :17:01.rejected it, would you have accepted it? No. I want people to
:17:01. > :17:07.work at changing the culture of the BBC, that is what I'm about. That
:17:07. > :17:14.is, indeed, almost your whole resson dettre, the whole point of
:17:14. > :17:18.your -- raison d'etre, building confidence in the BBC for the
:17:18. > :17:25.license payer? Building trust in the BBC has to be the job of any
:17:25. > :17:28.leader in the BBC. Do you recognise this picture of ifpt, chaotic --
:17:28. > :17:32.incompetent, chaotic, and back- stabbing management painted in the
:17:32. > :17:36.Pollard report? I think there were pockets of particularly bad and
:17:36. > :17:40.sorry sagas, when you look at the Newsnight issues. Having said that,
:17:40. > :17:44.there are issues I recognise that are common across the BBC. And
:17:44. > :17:47.being totally transparent about it, as someone who has led many
:17:47. > :17:51.corporations, one of the things that, been a leader in many
:17:51. > :17:54.corporations, one of the things I see, is there was a clear learning
:17:54. > :17:58.in Pollard that the BBC could be better connected, we could share
:17:58. > :18:02.information better, we could act on those signals that came up. With
:18:02. > :18:06.hindsight, of course we could do better. It is up to me to set a
:18:06. > :18:10.clear leadership agenda around that, and then Tony Hall who is coming in
:18:11. > :18:15.as Director General, to take that on. This is all in the context of
:18:15. > :18:18.extremely tight resources. �2 million has been blown on this
:18:18. > :18:23.inquiry, you are now shifting a lot of people into jobs of the same
:18:23. > :18:26.saleriess, but without the same responsibilities. -- salaries,
:18:26. > :18:32.without the same responsibilities? They are in different
:18:32. > :18:38.responsibilities. In terms of the price of the report, we had
:18:38. > :18:43.accusations of a cover-up on the BBC. Yeah? A cover-up in proper
:18:43. > :18:47.pressure. I can tell you one thing, if you need to rebuild trust, the
:18:47. > :18:52.first thing we could not have hanging over us, is the allegation
:18:52. > :18:56.of a cover-up. I know that cost a lot of money. Many will argue now,
:18:57. > :19:00.did we need to have that big process? The truth is, I think it
:19:00. > :19:03.was very important to establish the facts today. Do you think it was a
:19:03. > :19:09.proper use of the license fee, do you? I think it was the right thing
:19:09. > :19:16.to do. Was it the proper use of the license fee? In that regard, yes.
:19:16. > :19:19.For an organisation that has a �3.6 billion revenue, the idea to spend.
:19:19. > :19:23.Not very much you seem to be suggesting? I think it is a
:19:23. > :19:29.significant amount of money. But I do think that money, it was right
:19:29. > :19:34.to spend that money, because we had an allegation that was very
:19:34. > :19:38.fundamental to trust in the BBC. I think that is important. It is
:19:38. > :19:42.worth saying that I have set the challenge to the organisation not
:19:42. > :19:48.to take money out of programming, you will be pleased to hair, to
:19:48. > :19:51.fund that -- Hear, to fund that. What about Pollard's assertion that
:19:51. > :19:56.the job of the Director General is too much for one person, does it
:19:56. > :19:59.feel like that for you? It is a big debating point, always has been. I
:19:59. > :20:02.personally believe it is possible for one person to do the job. The
:20:02. > :20:05.critical thing is the support systems underneath them, the people
:20:05. > :20:09.that are working round that person, and the information coming into
:20:09. > :20:13.that person. Also how they lead. You know, I could give numerous
:20:13. > :20:19.examples of very big corporations that are well led by one individual.
:20:19. > :20:23.I think it is a possible job. As per the Pollard recommendations,
:20:23. > :20:30.that is worthy of consideration, I'm sure it will be a topic that
:20:30. > :20:34.keeps coming round. So reappoint a Deputy Director General? That is
:20:34. > :20:38.one of many solutions. I'm not in favour of adding a lot of layers,
:20:38. > :20:41.for what it is worth. I think that is not the right response, to add
:20:41. > :20:45.more layers. There is a glorious irony here, people say put in more
:20:45. > :20:48.people, actually, what I think it is not about that, it is about
:20:48. > :20:52.clarity, simplicity of structure, and actually just clear
:20:52. > :20:56.accountability. That is what comes through the report.
:20:56. > :20:59.It is one of this country's unwanted distinctions, we have the
:20:59. > :21:03.highest rates of teenage pregnancy and I borgs in western Europe.
:21:03. > :21:08.Leaving aside what -- abortion in western Europe. Leaving aside what
:21:08. > :21:14.having a baby so early does to young people's life chances.
:21:14. > :21:19.Youthful and unplanned family planning is seriously costly for
:21:19. > :21:23.the state. One of the leading MPs in one of the parties has said it
:21:23. > :21:25.doesn't have to be like that. And with more sex and relationship
:21:25. > :21:30.education, there could be many fewer children bearing children.
:21:30. > :21:33.First, here is our political editor with some baby statistics.
:21:33. > :21:39.First up, the good news, at least in part, the number of under-age
:21:39. > :21:45.teenage mums in England and Wales has been falling steadily over the
:21:45. > :21:49.past decade. From more than 4,000 in 1998, to 2,500 in 20 10. Despite
:21:49. > :21:53.this downward trend, it is still a large number of young teenage girls
:21:53. > :21:57.going on to give birth. In fact, we have the highest rate in western
:21:57. > :22:02.Europe. Figures from the United Nations, throughout the different
:22:03. > :22:12.age ranges from 15-19, you will see this issue is bedevilled with
:22:13. > :22:25.
:22:25. > :22:29.different ways of measuring the Ever since 1992 when then Social
:22:29. > :22:32.Security Secretary, Peter Lilley used a speech at conference to
:22:32. > :22:36.decry young ladies who get pregnant to jump the housing list, the
:22:36. > :22:39.Conservative Party has had an awkward handle on the issue of
:22:39. > :22:46.unplanned pregnancy now one new Conservative MP has decided to get
:22:46. > :22:49.to grips with it. Newsnight went to her constituency, Hastings, itself
:22:49. > :22:59.once a hot spot for parents having babies they didn't plan, even if
:22:59. > :23:06.
:23:06. > :23:10.they wanted them. Day break in Hastings.
:23:10. > :23:14.All this young mum wants for Christmas is a lie-in. Whitney is
:23:14. > :23:17.one the fishermen to get her seven- month-old daughter out of bed.
:23:18. > :23:21.Gracie slept very well last night, better than she has done for a
:23:22. > :23:25.while. A bit of respite for mum and dad.
:23:25. > :23:29.This is Whitney Potter, she's 18, along with her boyfriend ci, they
:23:30. > :23:34.live with her mum and three siblings. Whitney and Chris didn't
:23:34. > :23:38.quite plan to start their family in the way they did. Back when Whitney
:23:39. > :23:45.was 17, but they Z now she's one of Britain's reduced, but still very
:23:45. > :23:49.high numbers of teenage mums. Before you conceived, what did you
:23:49. > :23:54.think, I'm 16, these are my options? I was at college at the
:23:55. > :23:59.time, I was doing a sports course. I was really enjoying it. But, I
:23:59. > :24:03.don't know, I kind of had these two frame of minds, I'm loving what I'm
:24:03. > :24:10.doing at the moment at college. And then on the other hand, I wanted to
:24:10. > :24:14.start a family. What do you think of that decision in retrospect?
:24:14. > :24:18.think, I wouldn't regret a moment with her, but I would say if I had
:24:18. > :24:25.my time again, and I could choose the timing, I would choose it for
:24:25. > :24:29.definitely later on. How much later on? Sorry? Ten years maybe, I
:24:29. > :24:33.wanted to be able to you know, get my college sorted, and maybe hold
:24:33. > :24:38.down a job, and once I'm pregnant I could go on maternity leave, and
:24:38. > :24:42.then come back after she's old enough. You know, do it like that.
:24:42. > :24:45.But you can't really change what's happened, and I wouldn't regret it.
:24:45. > :24:50.Because I know most of my friends who have babies now, even a couple
:24:50. > :24:53.of them have two, so. Do most people feel like you, or do most
:24:53. > :24:58.people think this is a walk in the park? People handle it in different
:24:58. > :25:05.ways. From some of the people that I know, they have adapt today being
:25:05. > :25:10.a mum very well. But then there are others that don't. When I first had
:25:10. > :25:14.Gracie, hi post-natal depression, so I was on -- I had post-natal
:25:14. > :25:20.depression. So I was on tablets or that. We managed to get through it
:25:20. > :25:24.together. Whitney's post-natal depression is just the start of it.
:25:24. > :25:27.Teenage mums are three-times more likely to suffer from it. The
:25:27. > :25:32.Department for Education says that having children at this age can
:25:32. > :25:36.damage health, well being, education and career.
:25:36. > :25:39.The last Government brought in a strategy to reduce the number of
:25:39. > :25:46.teenage pregnancies, across the country they didn't reach their
:25:46. > :25:56.ambition of halfing the rate, but they did reduce it by a quarter. No
:25:56. > :25:59.
:25:59. > :26:03.fall feat. Across the UK -- no Whitney as mum, Sue, works in a
:26:03. > :26:10.bakery, before she gets to work, she has the school run to do,
:26:10. > :26:13.getting her two youngest children out of the house, now she's back.
:26:13. > :26:18.wanted her to go to college, get a cee, do things opposite to the way
:26:18. > :26:28.I did. I had had a baby at 18, I was married, but I didn't have a
:26:28. > :26:29.
:26:29. > :26:33.career. I pulled out of the Youth Training Scheme I was on. She was
:26:33. > :26:39.good at sports and the course she was on she did well. Being pregnant
:26:39. > :26:42.sports was one of the things you couldn't even do for a few months.
:26:43. > :26:52.Whitney Potter couldn't be called an irresponsible teenager, she's a
:26:52. > :26:55.smart and refreshingly frank young woman, she and Chris cross the
:26:56. > :26:59.difficult and complex range of people having them. It is not just
:26:59. > :27:03.the unplanned pregnancies, if abortion rates indicate unplanned
:27:03. > :27:08.pregnancy, older women over 30 are having them. The issues for young
:27:08. > :27:11.parents are more acute. Over the last ten years and in the
:27:11. > :27:15.time since someone like Whitney was only eight years old, the teenage
:27:15. > :27:18.pregnancy rate in this country has gone down, it is just it is still
:27:18. > :27:22.the highest in western Europe. Three female MPs have decided they
:27:22. > :27:26.want to do something about it now. But for the people of this town,
:27:26. > :27:33.the reasons behind it are hotly contested. You could call it the
:27:33. > :27:37.new battle of Hastings. If Hastings was a hot spot of
:27:37. > :27:42.unplanned pregnancies s the battle is over why. The Respond Academy is
:27:42. > :27:48.an alternative training establishment. A youth club come
:27:48. > :27:52.safe haven cum hot house for training for young people. The
:27:53. > :27:56.views of those who run it opened the eyes of Amber Rudd, one of the
:27:56. > :28:00.three MPs conducting the inquiry inside parliament. The information
:28:00. > :28:04.they gave to the MP informed her ininquiry, they were compelling and
:28:04. > :28:08.sometimes controversial. Whitney Potter is more the stable end of
:28:08. > :28:12.the spectrum for unplanned pregnancy, the reasons others get
:28:12. > :28:16.pregnant are more troubling. The inquiry finds young men have to be
:28:16. > :28:20.encouraged to be responsible. When you listen to these two, you can
:28:20. > :28:24.see why. What is wrong with Britain, we have the highest incidence
:28:24. > :28:28.across Europe, we have brought it down, but we are still high, what
:28:28. > :28:31.do you think needs to be done, there is a lot of contraception,
:28:31. > :28:35.sex he had cautious they have done a lot, they have put money into it,
:28:35. > :28:39.what else can you do? They can't really do anything else. They have
:28:39. > :28:44.put the morning-after-pill there, they have put pills there, the
:28:44. > :28:50.injection there, they have brought out condoms, they have brought out
:28:50. > :28:54.abortions. It is solely down to people and their instincts and
:28:54. > :29:00.their responsibilities. This is JC, she runs the place, for her the
:29:00. > :29:09.fresh enemy is a cyberenemy, Facebook, the platform of cyber
:29:09. > :29:14.enemy, Facebook, the platform for cyberenemy, it brings together near
:29:14. > :29:18.pornographic adverts and social, she says it threaten as stable
:29:18. > :29:20.relationship. In the report the MPs agree, they suggest nothing short
:29:20. > :29:24.of a Government inquiry into the issue.
:29:24. > :29:29.It is warped, completely, a sense of what's right and wrong. You were
:29:29. > :29:34.just showing me on Facebook some of the pictures, really graphic
:29:34. > :29:42.pictures of what people get up to? You didn't see the half of it.
:29:42. > :29:45.saw enough. JC's husband is the other half of
:29:46. > :29:51.the Respond Academy. I can only talk about what we see here. And
:29:51. > :29:56.what I see here are young people who are desperate for affection. I
:29:56. > :30:00.had a young man, he's 21 and he said to me, he has been in and out
:30:00. > :30:04.of prison. He said to me last week. A babey would sort me out, right
:30:04. > :30:08.now, I need to have a baby, that would sort me out. That would help
:30:08. > :30:14.me, I was like, that's not really it. He said I know what you mean,
:30:14. > :30:17.Idowu see what I'm saying. I said I understand what you are saying --
:30:17. > :30:20.said do you see what I'm saying, I said I understand what you're
:30:20. > :30:23.saying, but in his mind it's already set.
:30:23. > :30:28.It seems like there is an issue about consent, there is an issue
:30:28. > :30:33.about we don't really talk about saying yes or no, being important.
:30:33. > :30:37.You don't think so? Girls nowadays don't really agree, and they don't
:30:38. > :30:44.disagree. It just kind of happens. Yeah, there is a very casual
:30:44. > :30:47.attitude about it. Oh let's have sex, OK. Let's have sex, let's not.
:30:47. > :30:51.Consent doesn't really exist? can get the morning-after-pill,
:30:51. > :30:55.it's fine, babe, let's have sex. The morning-after-pill is a safety
:30:55. > :31:04.bank for a lot of people. Let's have sex, it might be risky, there
:31:04. > :31:08.is always the morning-after-pill. These girls show a widely held
:31:08. > :31:12.perception, the skipping up the housing list motivates some people
:31:12. > :31:16.to get pregnant.. There are some people who would go that far. They
:31:16. > :31:26.would be like, I don't like living with my parents, I have to move out,
:31:26. > :31:26.
:31:26. > :31:31.how can I get a flat with no money, I know! The figures are low, the
:31:31. > :31:38.Borough Council tells us that 15 out of 793 presentations for
:31:38. > :31:41.housing was for teenage mums, and in 2012 it is 6 out of a 1,000
:31:41. > :31:44.presentations. What is Whitney's experience. If you have parents to
:31:44. > :31:49.support you through having a baby, and there is the space needed for
:31:49. > :31:56.you to be able to live there, they don't see it as important. You know.
:31:56. > :32:01.Should they? Yes. I would like to be able to get my own place, it
:32:01. > :32:05.would just be good, because that space is very needed for us.
:32:05. > :32:11.Especially when she starts walking, she is going to need that space to
:32:11. > :32:15.walk around in. Because babies are quite clumsy at first with walking.
:32:15. > :32:18.The MP comes to tell them what she has in mind, it is more
:32:18. > :32:21.relationship advice. Research shows that young people who have talked a
:32:21. > :32:24.lot about what a good relationship looks like, choose to have sex
:32:24. > :32:28.later in life. To be effective it must start young.
:32:28. > :32:31.The right choices for themselves, which are about self-respect and
:32:31. > :32:36.ambition, and to make sure there is sufficient access to contra zepgs
:32:36. > :32:40.so they can make those choices -- contraception, so they can make the
:32:40. > :32:43.choices that is best for them. Rising abortions in some age groups,
:32:43. > :32:47.high teenage pregnancy rates too, there will continue to be a cost to
:32:47. > :32:51.this country f it can't put away childish things. We are going to
:32:51. > :32:56.hear now from Sorayah July who had her daughter when she was 17, Simon
:32:56. > :33:00.Blake, chief executive of the Sexual Health Service provider
:33:00. > :33:04.Brook. From the Conservative MP you saw in the film there, Amber Rudd,
:33:04. > :33:12.who has conducted the inquiry into unplanned pregnancy from Antonia
:33:12. > :33:19.Tully from the Safe at School against Sexually Explicit Education
:33:19. > :33:23.in Schools, and David Payton from a Business School. Why did you get
:33:23. > :33:27.pregnant? It was a case of at the time you don't think. As one of the
:33:27. > :33:31.girls in the vt said, you do always think of the morning-after-pill, I
:33:31. > :33:34.did go to take it and then I realised I was unable to because I
:33:34. > :33:39.have Crohn's disease, it was a medical reason not to take it.
:33:39. > :33:45.After that you sort of think it is not going to happen this time. It
:33:46. > :33:49.did. Do you regret it? No, I would honestly say I don't regret it. I
:33:49. > :33:53.carried on with my education, I'm at university, I'm working, my
:33:53. > :33:57.daughter sin tell gent, happy, well looked after -- is intelligent,
:33:57. > :34:01.happy, well looked after. In my situation and a lot of situations
:34:01. > :34:05.out there it hasn't been a problem for me. I don't think it has caused
:34:05. > :34:10.much of a strain on anybody else, my mum was happy to have us living
:34:10. > :34:13.there. We had to move out for a while while certain things happen
:34:13. > :34:19.but we are back there now, and everything is working out well for
:34:19. > :34:23.us. When you hear a story like that, who is to tell her she shouldn't
:34:23. > :34:27.have her child? I wouldn't tell her, that I work for the society for the
:34:27. > :34:32.protection of unborn children. We are delighted when teenage mothers
:34:32. > :34:38.do keep their babies. But, I think what I want to say here, is that
:34:38. > :34:42.the missing ingredient in all of this discussion about how teenagers
:34:42. > :34:45.get pregnant, how much sex education they should have, how
:34:45. > :34:50.much contraceptives should be available, where are parents in all
:34:50. > :34:55.of this? Parents are the primary educators of their children, they
:34:55. > :34:59.are completely air-brushed out of sex education. All right, let's
:34:59. > :35:03.continue a little further to explore why girls get pregnant,
:35:03. > :35:07.relatively young, what is your experience? Well, at Brook we see
:35:08. > :35:11.young people who come in, who have got pregnant, often because they
:35:11. > :35:16.didn't know about contraception, or weren't able to access it easily,
:35:16. > :35:20.or as was also said on the video, that didn't think it would happen,
:35:20. > :35:23.we did a big survey last year, where young people said they
:35:23. > :35:26.thought people couldn't get pregnant standing up, or the first
:35:26. > :35:30.time, they didn't know where our service was, I agree, parents are
:35:30. > :35:34.the first educator. But we have to make sure that schools teach about
:35:34. > :35:41.relationships as well. We will come to that point in a second. What is
:35:41. > :35:44.you are peerence of why girls get pregnant, *Professor? There is a
:35:44. > :35:48.lot of empirical and statistical evidence out there, from the
:35:48. > :35:50.surveys, the majority of teenagers who have abortions, for example,
:35:51. > :35:54.were using some form of contraception, when they got
:35:54. > :35:57.pregnant, so the problem, in many cases, not all, is not necessarily
:35:58. > :36:01.access to contraception, I think it is quite an important point. We
:36:01. > :36:06.need to recognise that some of the policies that perhaps are being
:36:06. > :36:12.promoted may have sort of unintends consequences. They didn't know how
:36:12. > :36:16.to put on a condom? We no know for young -- We know for young people
:36:16. > :36:20.that condoms and the pill have high rates of failures. The young women
:36:20. > :36:24.talking about the morning-after- pill, there was a report you may
:36:24. > :36:28.have seen last week, that access to the morning-after-pill doesn't lead
:36:28. > :36:33.to reductions in abortions or teenage pregnancies, but does seem
:36:33. > :36:36.to lead to an increase in risky behaviour and is associated with
:36:36. > :36:40.STIs. Sexually transmitted infections, were you surprised when
:36:40. > :36:43.you learned that? What we were surprised by is to find that so
:36:43. > :36:47.many of the young people were saying us, we understand about sex
:36:47. > :36:50.and contraception, we have a lot of information about that, we can get
:36:50. > :36:54.access to contraception, what we need help with, this is what they
:36:54. > :36:57.were saying to us, what we need help with are relationship advice.
:36:57. > :37:01.By that we mean about forming relationship, affection, commitment.
:37:01. > :37:04.As JC was saying in that, there is too much now, as those young girls
:37:04. > :37:09.were saying when sex is not considered as part of a commitment
:37:09. > :37:12.in a relationship. They are asking for our help. What is a
:37:12. > :37:16.relationship? Of course there are many ways of defining it. What we
:37:16. > :37:20.are talking about is try to help them form relationships which are
:37:20. > :37:24.about commitment, friendship, Atwood some point may become sexual.
:37:24. > :37:27.We are not -- and at some point may become sexual. We are not making
:37:27. > :37:30.judgment about that, but the relationship and friendship must
:37:30. > :37:34.come first. They are not getting that. One of the reasons I think
:37:34. > :37:38.that children aren't getting that, is because from a very early age
:37:38. > :37:43.the sex education programmes that are in schools at the moment are
:37:43. > :37:46.focusing on body parts, sexual intercourse, masturbation, I speak
:37:46. > :37:53.to hundreds, and probably this year I have spoken to thousands of
:37:53. > :37:57.parents about this, who all feel, where was I in all of this? These
:37:57. > :38:01.children are being given highly explicit, highly provocative sex
:38:01. > :38:05.education, in the classroom, and what I'm saying is they shouldn't
:38:05. > :38:08.be having it there, it should be parents who know their children
:38:08. > :38:12.best and love their children best giving it to them. Of course
:38:12. > :38:15.parents, but in school, what we know is that most sensible adults
:38:15. > :38:19.believe that children do need to learn about body parts. We know all
:38:19. > :38:22.the issues about abuse, it helps to protect them. But also young people
:38:22. > :38:25.do need to know about relationships, they need to understand that you
:38:25. > :38:28.have to make an active choice. One of the things that I think is
:38:29. > :38:36.really important. It is not working is it? The whole issue, what young
:38:36. > :38:40.people say is they don't get enough about relationships, emotions,
:38:40. > :38:44.real-life dilemmas, "too little, too late, too biological" is the
:38:45. > :38:49.phrase we heard. We know from around the world, good access to
:38:49. > :38:52.services and sex education, good access to parents and a focus about
:38:52. > :38:55.young people knowing to take responsibility about sex. Would
:38:55. > :38:58.your behaviour been different if you had some how been taught about
:38:58. > :39:06.relationships? I think it would have been. I was in a relationship,
:39:06. > :39:10.and I still have that relationship. For the sex education times, we are
:39:10. > :39:15.constantly being pumped with sexual images and music. We need to look
:39:15. > :39:17.Aztecs education in a different way. At school we weren't -- at sex
:39:17. > :39:21.education in a different way. At school we weren't given about the
:39:21. > :39:25.same way, the only thing I remember is my history telling me about
:39:25. > :39:29.contraception for one lesson. Putting a condom on a cucumber.
:39:29. > :39:33.That is exactly what it was. Putting it on a plastic thing. But
:39:34. > :39:38.I really do think if we were taught more about emotions. As a teenager,
:39:38. > :39:40.you are not going to mix biological and mechanics with emotion. When
:39:41. > :39:45.you are going to have sex, you are not thinking about what your
:39:45. > :39:49.history teacher told you. I imagine not! We have to deal with
:39:49. > :39:52.the world in which we find ourselves. This is a world in which
:39:52. > :39:59.the young people are being bombarded with sex. We have issues
:39:59. > :40:02.about internet porn, we have issues about texting, sexting. It is going
:40:02. > :40:05.all around them, they are being flooded with advice about having
:40:05. > :40:08.sex, but they have no concept, a lot of them, about relationships.
:40:08. > :40:12.It would be fantastic, if they were all learning from their families, a
:40:12. > :40:15.lot of them are. There are a lot who aren't. These are the children,
:40:15. > :40:18.some of the young women, the brilliant young women you saw from
:40:18. > :40:23.Hastings, who have been failed by the system at the moment. They are
:40:23. > :40:28.asking for help. I think one of the problems in the way that
:40:28. > :40:33.relationships education is presented to young people, is that
:40:33. > :40:38.it is presented in terms of adults relationships, teenagers are not
:40:38. > :40:43.adult, they don't think like adults, act like adults. They are bearing
:40:43. > :40:47.children like adults? But they don't think like adult, they are
:40:47. > :40:49.not making "decisions", they don't know what is happening yesterday or
:40:49. > :40:53.tomorrow. We need to train people properly to give them that advice,
:40:53. > :40:58.to form relationships, before they have sexual intercourse, that is
:40:58. > :41:02.what we want them to do. In that case you need to radically what is
:41:02. > :41:06.happening -- radically change what is happening in schools.
:41:07. > :41:10.Professor is politely mute in the corner, let's bring you in?
:41:10. > :41:13.shouldn't be too optimistic about the impact of sex and relationships
:41:13. > :41:17.education in schools on things like unwanted pregnancy it doesn't mean
:41:17. > :41:20.we shouldn't do it, certainly there is a role for schools, we might
:41:20. > :41:24.disagree about what form and the age it might happen. But most of
:41:24. > :41:28.the research evidence is rather disappointing in suggesting it has
:41:28. > :41:33.very little affect in terms of reducing teenage pregnancy.
:41:33. > :41:37.education as such doesn't reduce teenage pregnancy? There is very
:41:37. > :41:41.little evidence it does, or earlier or later sex education. One of the
:41:41. > :41:46.interesting countries to look at is the Netherland, we know they have
:41:46. > :41:49.lower rates of teenage pregnancy than we do. Interestingly sex
:41:49. > :41:53.education in the Netherlands, starts usually a bit later than in
:41:53. > :41:56.the UK. Interestingly it is not statutory. So they don't have a
:41:56. > :42:01.curriculum, which I think is one of the things that the report wants to
:42:01. > :42:05.bring in the UK. How do you deal with that? The issue about this it
:42:06. > :42:10.is the combination of sexual relationships education services
:42:10. > :42:15.and culture. In Holland they have very high expectations for young
:42:15. > :42:18.people about sexual relationships. What are high expectations about
:42:18. > :42:21.sexual relationships? Here young people will often say they had sex
:42:21. > :42:24.to find out what it was, because they thought everybody else was, or
:42:24. > :42:27.because they were drunk. In Holland if you talk to young people, it was
:42:27. > :42:30.because they thought they were in love, six months later they might
:42:30. > :42:33.find out they were not, but it is a good context. That is the
:42:33. > :42:37.environment you want? That is exactly what we want. There they
:42:37. > :42:40.talk about it. It is very well known that parent and families talk
:42:40. > :42:42.about sex much more than we do in this country. Given we are not
:42:42. > :42:45.going to change the culture of people doing it in their families
:42:45. > :42:50.talking about it, we have to try to introduce it in schools, in order,
:42:50. > :42:53.in a way. We might be on the same page, to put off sex so that people
:42:53. > :42:57.can have the language of relationships before they get into
:42:57. > :42:59.sex, because a lot of them don't have that language, even. You are
:42:59. > :43:02.going further than, that you are not just talking about introducing
:43:02. > :43:07.it in schools, you are talking about it being compulsory in
:43:07. > :43:10.schools? I'm saying schools should have a policy on relationships.
:43:10. > :43:17.you think that Government would make that compulsory? I would like
:43:17. > :43:25.to see them do it, that is what we are recommending, plenty of sex
:43:25. > :43:32.educations, plenty of -- and no relationship cases. Citizenship
:43:32. > :43:36.classes are compulsory, why not put it in that. You want to ban -- you
:43:36. > :43:39.won't even ban pornography on the internet? Let's move on that at
:43:39. > :43:44.another time, at this point we need to protect the young women, the
:43:44. > :43:46.best way to do that is to introduce relationship education. Has George
:43:46. > :43:51.Osborne or any friends in Government have said they will do
:43:51. > :43:56.that? Not yet, but I'm only just starting. Can we remember it is
:43:56. > :44:00.also about involving young men in sexual education. Listening to the
:44:00. > :44:05.two young men talking in the film there, what are you saying?
:44:05. > :44:07.first job was sex education with young men in the South Wales
:44:07. > :44:10.valleys, those attitudes would have been what they would have said on
:44:10. > :44:14.film, once you talk to them and find a way of talking and engaging
:44:14. > :44:17.with them about relationships, young men like young women want to
:44:17. > :44:22.be good at relationships n the context of those relationships they
:44:22. > :44:25.want to have sex, but we have real issues around violence around
:44:25. > :44:30.masculinity, we have some real issues around young people
:44:30. > :44:35.understanding what consent is, we have to work with those in a real
:44:35. > :44:38.honest and constructive way. That disturbing remark one of the girls
:44:38. > :44:43.made about consent being non- existent nowadays, it was assumed
:44:43. > :44:48.that boys some how had the right? This is extraordinary? I do just
:44:48. > :44:51.want to say at Brook we see young people doing a fantastic job of
:44:51. > :44:56.managing their relationships, but there are some scenarios and some
:44:56. > :44:59.cases where we see young women who say they don't know whether they
:44:59. > :45:02.consented to sex or whether they didn't. That is really worrying.
:45:02. > :45:05.because they were off their heads? Sometimes because they were drunk,
:45:05. > :45:10.sometimes because they didn't know what it was. This is exactly why
:45:10. > :45:14.this is so important. We can't allow another generation. Boys need
:45:14. > :45:17.to learn about relationships just as much as the girls. I agree.
:45:17. > :45:20.was interesting to see the report tackling the issue of consent.
:45:20. > :45:25.There is a problem at the moment that there is some ambiguity the
:45:25. > :45:30.way we teach the issue of under-age serbs it is affecting the BBC as
:45:30. > :45:33.well -- sex, it is affecting the BBC as well as other people. One of
:45:33. > :45:38.the problems with sex education, they tell young people delay having
:45:38. > :45:44.sex until you feel you are ready. The problem with that, of ko, you
:45:44. > :45:48.may be 13 or 14 -- of course, is you may be 13 or 14 and believe you
:45:48. > :45:54.are ready. There is lots of scientific evidence that delaying
:45:54. > :45:57.sexual activity until you are older has all sorts of benefits. Can I
:45:57. > :46:00.talk about consensual sex between two 15-year-olds and child abuse,
:46:00. > :46:05.they are two different things. The law is designed to protect people,
:46:05. > :46:08.most under 16s don't have sex. question of consent, is it
:46:08. > :46:13.something that you were aware of at the time you were first getting
:46:13. > :46:17.involved in sexual activity? think one of the few things I do
:46:17. > :46:23.remember from my sex education school was always pumped, as David
:46:23. > :46:27.said, when you are ready, that's when you can start having sex. I
:46:27. > :46:30.can remember that being one of the main things, but it is, not for me
:46:30. > :46:33.personally, I can understand why other people, it is not very clear.
:46:33. > :46:37.When you might feel ready, young people are very influenced by other
:46:37. > :46:42.people, someone's telling them they are ready, they may feel ready. I
:46:42. > :46:46.think it needs to be a lot clearer whether you are ready or not.
:46:46. > :46:49.Because a 15, 14, younger person is not going to know that for
:46:49. > :46:57.themselves, straight away. I think it needs to be a lot clearer.
:46:57. > :47:02.you very much indeed. Tomorrow morning's front pages, all sorts of