:00:19. > :00:24.It's plebgate, is it becoming plodgate, today the Police
:00:24. > :00:28.Federation was effectively lobbying a move towards a possible apology.
:00:28. > :00:31.I will wait to see what happens in relation to the investigation. If
:00:31. > :00:35.he has been done a disservice in relation to what has happened, I
:00:35. > :00:38.will be first in the queue to apologise. Why is the relationship
:00:38. > :00:41.between the Government and the police so fraught. Also tonight,
:00:41. > :00:48.the kings of the credit crunch. Thousands of pawnbrokers filling a
:00:48. > :00:54.gap in the market for the rich and the poor. There is no other choice,
:00:54. > :00:59.really. I wouldn't go to my family for money, I would rather use what
:00:59. > :01:04.I have got myself. We will talk to one MP who thinks the rules need to
:01:04. > :01:08.be toughened up. And Vladimir Putin threatens to retaliate against an
:01:08. > :01:18.American ban on corrupt Russian officials, will he really stop
:01:18. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:25.Americans adopting Russian children. Good evenings. While the police
:01:25. > :01:28.investigate the role played in Andrew Mitchell's downfall by an e-
:01:28. > :01:33.mail sent by an offduty officer, who allegedly claimed to be a
:01:33. > :01:36.member of the public. The former Home Secretary, Kenneth Baker, have
:01:36. > :01:42.has accused the Police Federation of using the affair for political
:01:42. > :01:47.ends. In the days following the dispute, not only did they want to
:01:47. > :01:50.get a cabinet minister but they also wanted to use it as a
:01:50. > :01:53.campaigning tool between Government and officials. The Police
:01:54. > :01:59.Federation has denied this, but the chairman says he will apologise if
:01:59. > :02:02.there was a disservice committed. We will look at why the relations
:02:02. > :02:06.between Government and rank and file officers are so strained.
:02:06. > :02:13.First we have this. And so, it appears, we might have
:02:13. > :02:19.to say farewell to that rather clumsy label "plebgate" and give a
:02:19. > :02:22.cautious, but weary reincarnation, "plodgate". Was there a conspiracy
:02:22. > :02:24.to fit up the former Chief Whip. That is a question we still can't
:02:24. > :02:28.answer. Today the Metropolitan Police made a second arrest in
:02:28. > :02:32.their on going investigation. There are questions too for dam yofpblt
:02:32. > :02:36.how come it took Channel 4 to uncover, David Cameron, how come it
:02:36. > :02:40.took Channel 4 to uncover significant questions on the
:02:41. > :02:44.strength of evidence against Andrew Mitchell. When David Cameron's own
:02:44. > :02:48.cabinet secretary, Jeremy Heywood, had been given the job of
:02:48. > :02:54.investigating and had access to a...We Have a programme of reform
:02:54. > :02:59.that the police have actually been in need of for 30 years, really.
:02:59. > :03:03.How has that gone down, that combination of measures? The Police
:03:03. > :03:07.Federation has opposed each of those measures, tooth and nail, and
:03:07. > :03:11.with as emotional a campaign as any public sector union has done.
:03:11. > :03:16.are the actions of a Police Federation in furthering their aims
:03:16. > :03:23.the legitimate campaigning of a representative body, or have they
:03:23. > :03:27.tipped into moral blackmail and bullying.
:03:27. > :03:30.Home Secretary, do you sleep at night? There are not many playing
:03:30. > :03:32.nice cop at the Police Federation Conference, if you are the Home
:03:32. > :03:37.Secretary. Today, the Police Federation answered questions for
:03:37. > :03:41.the first time, about their actions during the Mitchell affair. I think
:03:41. > :03:45.it is unfortunate that we are three months down the line and only now
:03:45. > :03:51.finding out what some of these facts were at the very start.
:03:51. > :03:54.Seeing the CCTV footage, seeing the fact that there was apparently some
:03:54. > :03:57.police officer purporting to be a member of the public, that sort of
:03:57. > :04:03.thing. It is unfortunate it has taken three months for those facts
:04:03. > :04:08.to come out. It is clear that Andrew Mitchell is now a far more
:04:08. > :04:12.relaxed figure, given the events of the week. Happy Christmas.
:04:12. > :04:15.Relations between the police and the Government are now more tense
:04:15. > :04:21.than ever. I'm joined from Brighton by the
:04:21. > :04:31.former Home Secretary, Lord Baker, from Newcastle the best-selling
:04:31. > :04:35.diarist, Chris Mullen, and with me in the studio Mr Hurly, a former
:04:35. > :04:38.senior official at Scotland Yard, and Mike Pannett. The Police
:04:39. > :04:42.Federation was not available to come on tonight. The police are in
:04:42. > :04:47.a situation where they are not allowed to strike. Surely they have
:04:47. > :04:51.every right to take the battle to the Government wherever they can?
:04:51. > :04:56.Of course they can protest, I'm not objects to that at all. The police
:04:56. > :05:00.are in real trouble this year. We had the Hillsborough affair, where
:05:00. > :05:07.there was fabricated evidence, and the Rotherham affair where the
:05:07. > :05:09.police didn't prosecute people who were abusing young girls. And the
:05:09. > :05:13.extraordinary episode of a police officer pretending to be a member
:05:13. > :05:17.of the public, fabricating evidence, totally false evidence, saying
:05:18. > :05:23.there was a crowd. Let's be clear these are still allegations, Lord
:05:23. > :05:26.Baker on the last point? Sorry? They are still allegations?
:05:26. > :05:30.Certainly allegations. I believe the Police Federation had decided
:05:30. > :05:35.they had saw a wounded cabinet minister and they decided to strike
:05:35. > :05:38.and bring him down. They ran an overtly political campaign. They
:05:38. > :05:41.produced T-shirts and banners at the Tory Party conference. They
:05:41. > :05:45.were using this as an attack upon the Government which, they dislike.
:05:45. > :05:51.They don't like the review that has been set up into their pay and
:05:51. > :05:56.conditions and early retirement. As a result they behaved atrociously
:05:56. > :05:59.and unfairly. Let me put that to the studio. Atrociously unfairly,
:05:59. > :06:03.it looked like the Police Federation were being gleeful and
:06:03. > :06:10.acting in a cheap way? I come from the point of view of trying to
:06:10. > :06:13.deliver for the people of sury. My concern is to make sure the morale
:06:13. > :06:18.of and motivation of police officers is fit for purpose. Would
:06:18. > :06:21.you have been happy if a police officer in your area was wearing
:06:21. > :06:26.those T-shirts, maybe they were? don't know if they were. The
:06:26. > :06:30.strongest weapon the police always have is to retain their dignity and
:06:30. > :06:36.remain measured. Did they lose it by having those T-shirts? They Z
:06:36. > :06:41.there is a huge measure of from us trai, they have seen the starting
:06:41. > :06:44.numbers of police constables cut to �14,000 a year, less than a
:06:44. > :06:54.community support officer. average police officer is on more
:06:54. > :06:54.
:06:55. > :06:59.than �40,000 ay, and one in four met constables are on more than
:06:59. > :07:02.that? There are a number of police officers on that salary, but the
:07:02. > :07:05.nature and number of police officers we can recruit on that
:07:05. > :07:11.money, I want quality people to protect the Surrey population.
:07:11. > :07:16.Chris Mullen, you have long experience of the police, are you
:07:16. > :07:19.surprised that the federation acts in such a vehement way? -- acted in
:07:19. > :07:23.such a vehement way? Not in the least. They have a long track
:07:23. > :07:27.record of bullying and intimidating people who get in their way, be
:07:27. > :07:32.they journalists or politicians or whoever. I have been monstered by
:07:33. > :07:37.them myself in days gone by. quick example of being bullied, you,
:07:37. > :07:43.personally, bullied, really? I was the chairman of the Home Affairs
:07:43. > :07:47.Select Committee some years a and we conducted an inquiry into -- ago,
:07:47. > :07:50.and we conducted an inquiry into reforming police procedure, and as
:07:50. > :07:54.a result of some not very controversial remarks I made, they
:07:54. > :07:57.started ringing up the Home Secretary, demanding that he call
:07:57. > :08:02.for my dismissia. Then they rang the opposition home affairs
:08:02. > :08:04.spokesman and made the same demand. Then they rang round each member of
:08:04. > :08:09.the committee, demanding they disassociate themselves from me.
:08:09. > :08:14.All of them declined, as it happened. But, and I, you know,
:08:14. > :08:22.don't complain about that, because I'm politician, and I don't -- I'm
:08:22. > :08:28.a politician, and I know the heat of the kitchen. This is modus Peter
:08:28. > :08:31.Mandelson die. Is that OK -- Modus operandi.
:08:31. > :08:38.have been called the last unreformed public service, is there
:08:38. > :08:43.real rancour there? What is in here, is the rank and file officers and
:08:43. > :08:47.their morale is at an all-time low. I have heard to Lord Baker and
:08:47. > :08:50.listening to comments made by the federation and the rest. The real
:08:50. > :08:54.question here, yes there is issues between federation and Government,
:08:54. > :08:58.I have never known it so bad. That is not good for policing and
:08:58. > :09:01.governance. Do you think, just on the very point that Lord Baker was
:09:01. > :09:06.saying, do you think there is a defensiveness in the police,
:09:06. > :09:11.Hillsborough, Leveson and so forth? There is dreadful things happening
:09:11. > :09:15.within policing, and a lot of those, like Hillsborough, big inquiries
:09:15. > :09:19.taking place. Taking it back, while we are all sitting here, looking at
:09:19. > :09:24.the months. We are looking at the original incident, where the Chief
:09:24. > :09:29.Whip has come to the gates of Downing Street and there has been
:09:29. > :09:35.an altercation at those gates. Those officers have then reported
:09:35. > :09:39.what was said. We have to remember this is all about what did the
:09:39. > :09:43.Chief Whip say. I have no doubt, neither has the commissioner,
:09:43. > :09:49.Hogan-Hoe, about the integrity of those two police officers that have
:09:49. > :09:53.said what was said. All through this Mitchell has never said what
:09:53. > :09:57.he did say. If he had just said he was sorry, and he need not have
:09:57. > :10:00.said what he used, but he said in the end he said he didn't say
:10:00. > :10:05.anything, then he said I did swear, but I didn't say what those
:10:05. > :10:10.officers have said. Lord Baker, do you think what has been said about
:10:10. > :10:16.the sequence of events there, and the idea if Andrew Mitchell had
:10:16. > :10:20.spoken quickly it would have diffused this, is symptomatic of
:10:20. > :10:23.the bad relationship between the police and the Government? Andrew
:10:23. > :10:27.Mitchell apologised several times, he responded very quickly what you
:10:27. > :10:31.might be witnessing here is a grave error of injustice. In fact, from a
:10:31. > :10:36.police officer. We know that one is lying, total lo. And could I just
:10:37. > :10:40.say to the commissioner. -- Totally. And could I just say to the
:10:40. > :10:43.commissioner. We are at allegation stage at the moment? He needs to
:10:43. > :10:45.try to restore the trust of the British public in the police, I
:10:45. > :10:49.don't think that begins with talking about their pay and
:10:49. > :10:54.salaries. In fact, there is a lack of trust at the moment, that is
:10:54. > :10:58.very, very disturbing. Because you have got the British public who
:10:58. > :11:02.have to have trust in their police. Let me talk about that, the trust
:11:02. > :11:08.in the police is very, very important. And Lord Baker, and
:11:08. > :11:11.Chris Mullen too there were two reports, the Sheehy report, that
:11:11. > :11:15.wasn't implemented, that was a real struggle, and the Windsor Report,
:11:15. > :11:19.there has to be some kind of accommodation. Why is it so hard to
:11:19. > :11:23.come to that? Lord Baker is correct. We need to rebuild the trust in the
:11:23. > :11:28.whole way in which the police are viewed. But they are still regarded
:11:28. > :11:30.very, very highly. But what is this amounting to, there has been a
:11:30. > :11:37.break down of relationships between Government and the Police
:11:37. > :11:42.Federation. You saw that there, you saw the remark to Theresa May, "Do
:11:42. > :11:44.you sleep at night?" Why should the Home Secretary go to the
:11:44. > :11:49.conference? Because she's the leader, she needs to influence the
:11:49. > :11:53.people she's working with. The real problem we have got here, is like
:11:53. > :11:56.everybody else in society they are having their pay and conditions cut.
:11:56. > :12:00.They are also having huge changes done to the sway they operate,
:12:00. > :12:03.which causes them to believe they are considered as lesser citizens,
:12:03. > :12:09.their bosses have been replaced by people who have never been in the
:12:09. > :12:12.police before. You are talking about Tom Windsor? And other people,
:12:12. > :12:16.they are told all their promotions are stopped and people coming in
:12:16. > :12:19.with three years service to replace them. I come at this, not as a
:12:19. > :12:24.police officer, but a politician, who wants to maintain the morale of
:12:24. > :12:27.the work force. Maybe you don't agree, or you do that actually the
:12:27. > :12:31.Police Service does need reform, and it should take a hit like so
:12:31. > :12:35.many other services are having to take at the moment. We are still in
:12:35. > :12:37.recessionary times? I agree that the police have to take cuts like
:12:38. > :12:41.so many other public sector organisations. What I don't
:12:41. > :12:45.necessarily agree with is actions that damage the overall morale and
:12:45. > :12:48.sense of value of the Police Service. Some of the things, this
:12:48. > :12:51.isn't just from the police point of view, just about the salaries, it
:12:51. > :12:57.is about the fact that people have been brought in, three years in
:12:57. > :13:00.charge of whole shifts of people. Chris Mullen, do you think that on
:13:00. > :13:04.the Government side there hasn't been a sensitive handling, for
:13:04. > :13:09.example, the commissioner there talks about Tom Windsor coming n
:13:10. > :13:13.Tom Windsor's report, and he became Inspector of Constabulary, he has
:13:13. > :13:17.never been a police officer? They have seen off all comers over the
:13:17. > :13:21.last 20 or 30 years when it comes to reform. There is scope for
:13:21. > :13:26.considerable reform in relation to, not only, well in particular to
:13:26. > :13:30.some of the police practices, and great waste of resources, sometimes.
:13:30. > :13:34.I have to say as well, there is nothing new about this, they say
:13:34. > :13:40.that morale is at an all-time low, I have heard that at least half-a-
:13:40. > :13:43.dozen time in the last 20 years. The fact is, given a succession of
:13:43. > :13:47.home secretaries, they have mistreated a succession of hoves
:13:47. > :13:56.ministers in their conferences, they were slow hand-clapping Will
:13:56. > :14:01.Straw, during the 19 -- 2005 general election. This isn't a
:14:01. > :14:05.party plea? The only point I make to you, is not particularly a
:14:05. > :14:10.grudge against this Government. has it come to this, in a situation
:14:10. > :14:15.where we need the public to trust and have faith in police officers,
:14:15. > :14:19.they do a job where they put their lives at risk day in day out, but
:14:19. > :14:24.we are now where partly as a result of the Andrew Mitchell affair, what
:14:24. > :14:29.happens to it, we might be facing discussions, conversations,
:14:29. > :14:35.negotiating where even more axe crown mus -- that are even more
:14:35. > :14:39.acrimonious with the outcome of this case? Going back to what Lord
:14:39. > :14:43.Baker said about Andrew Mitchell offering an apology, he said he
:14:43. > :14:46.didn't say what the officers said, he brought into question the
:14:46. > :14:49.integrity of those officers. I have said today, I think the public are
:14:49. > :14:58.fed up with what's going on. We have seen political points going
:14:58. > :15:01.from all sides, it has to stop. This is about policing, and this is
:15:01. > :15:04.about policy. We have to get the two together, there should be a
:15:04. > :15:10.common cause, that should be to deal with people who are making
:15:10. > :15:12.people's lives a misry that is what policing is about. Here we are
:15:12. > :15:17.months down the line, there are dreadful things, and cuts happening
:15:17. > :15:20.within the police, and issues within policing. And it may be that
:15:20. > :15:24.Andrew Mitchell is back in a cabinet post soon. What do you
:15:24. > :15:27.think the likelihood of that is? That is quite possible. Can I make
:15:27. > :15:33.a point about Tom Windsor, the police should not really object to
:15:33. > :15:36.somebody outside the police force being their Chief Inspector, the
:15:36. > :15:40.prisons have been inspected now for many years by people who have
:15:40. > :15:43.nothing to do with the Prison Service. They did very, very good
:15:43. > :15:47.reports. The police have always said this is our particular field,
:15:47. > :15:50.no-one else must take an interest in it at all. I think things have
:15:50. > :15:54.to move on from. That that is part of winning back the trust. The
:15:54. > :15:59.police have to answer to somebody, they should be answering to the new
:15:59. > :16:04.commissioners. One of the things that should be happening is that. I
:16:04. > :16:08.still think the politicisation of the police would be disastrous of
:16:08. > :16:13.our economiccy, for our democracy, and the chairman needs to change
:16:13. > :16:20.his tune. And the chairman tonight, the weasel words of that, that if
:16:20. > :16:23.Andrew Mitchell is found knot not guilty we will apologise.
:16:23. > :16:27.apologise for the technical problems in the film previous to
:16:27. > :16:32.this discussion. Pawnbrokers will always be
:16:32. > :16:36.associated with dark Dickensian London. By the end of the 20th
:16:36. > :16:41.century awful them had shut up shop. By 1980 there were 50 branches left
:16:41. > :16:45.in the UK. Now the industry is thriving anew, filling a yawning
:16:45. > :16:50.gap as banks stop lending, and both poor and rich struggle to find
:16:50. > :16:55.credit. There are now more than 2,000 pawn shop. As we report, that
:16:55. > :17:05.number is expected to rise further as the squeeze on household incomes
:17:05. > :17:05.
:17:05. > :17:12.continue. Somewhere deep in the Surrey hills,
:17:12. > :17:20.a hidden mile of tunnels. 5,000 aircraft workers, sheltered
:17:20. > :17:28.here in the Second World War. The men and women who made the
:17:28. > :17:36.Hurricane fighter. Untouched for half a century, these cold, dry
:17:36. > :17:43.tunnels, are now being used for something very different. This is a
:17:43. > :17:48.Chateau Petrus 2000, it is about �18,000 worth of wine per crate. A
:17:48. > :17:53.six box is about �3,000 a bottle. James Constantinou is storing
:17:53. > :17:58.�500,000 worth of wine down here. These bottles of Bordeaux are not
:17:58. > :18:03.his to drink. James is a pawnbroker, he set up three years ago. Lending
:18:03. > :18:07.not just to individuals but to companies, struggling in the
:18:07. > :18:10.downturn. 30% of the time they haven't been able to source funding
:18:10. > :18:14.for their business side of things, so they are looking for funding
:18:14. > :18:17.that they are going to pump into their business. So they may be
:18:17. > :18:21.borrowing the money as a private individual, but they are using it
:18:21. > :18:31.for business purposes. Those customers have included a
:18:31. > :18:32.
:18:32. > :18:38.restaurant, pawning its wine collection to pay bills and wages.
:18:38. > :18:43.Back above ground, a petrolhead's dream. All pawns are locked up for
:18:43. > :18:47.safe keeping. A high-end sports car, or a plane gold ring, the
:18:47. > :18:56.transaction is the same. If you don't pay on time, your item will
:18:56. > :19:02.be sold, or melted down to cover the debt. Mark Landsberg runs his
:19:02. > :19:04.own IT business, he handed over the keys to his Porsche last month, to
:19:05. > :19:09.raise �20,000 to pay a looming tax bill.
:19:09. > :19:12.Why not go to a bank and get a straight loan? Forget t the banks
:19:13. > :19:16.are useless nowadays. You can't get money out of a bank for business
:19:16. > :19:20.unless it is made of solid gold, and you have more assets than you
:19:20. > :19:23.are borrowing. Pawning his car meant no credit check and little
:19:23. > :19:30.paperwork, the cash was in his account hours later. Interest
:19:30. > :19:33.charges on a loan like this go from 2% a month, right up to 7%. Do you
:19:33. > :19:37.worry about the stigma attached to pawnbroking, does it send a message
:19:37. > :19:43.out to people you do business with, that there's something wrong?
:19:43. > :19:47.is the same question you could have asked my mother 20 years ago about
:19:47. > :19:50.credit cards and higher purchase. She never had those in her life
:19:50. > :19:54.because of the associated stigma. The bank loan you can't get for a
:19:54. > :20:00.month. They want a year out of you, and there is penalties if you want
:20:00. > :20:05.to pay back early. You haven't got the flexibility, if you like.
:20:05. > :20:13.Those same trends, same market forces, are even more obvious on
:20:13. > :20:18.the high streets. With banks not lending, pawnbrokers have quickly
:20:18. > :20:22.filled the gap. 200 have soped this year alone, the real growth --
:20:22. > :20:26.opened this year alone, the real growth story of the credit crunch.
:20:26. > :20:32.Three of those new stores belong to one of the oldest names in the
:20:32. > :20:40.business. Fish Brothers, first opened its
:20:40. > :20:46.doors almost two centuries ago. This, though, is how it looks today,
:20:46. > :20:51.all modern counters and slick marketing. A redesign this year,
:20:51. > :21:01.meant to make it look less Victorian money-lender, more high
:21:01. > :21:06.
:21:06. > :21:12.street bank. These are a pawnbrokers right hand equipment,
:21:12. > :21:15.these were still in use when I started. This is a fifth generation
:21:15. > :21:19.worker in the business. The business was about to die, and now
:21:19. > :21:24.he has seen it grow at its strongest rate in more than a
:21:24. > :21:27.century. The recession has affected middle-classes, that has affected
:21:27. > :21:30.pawn brokers because the middle- classes are using us in a way they
:21:30. > :21:36.never have before. Our average loan over the last four or five years
:21:36. > :21:40.has gone up, I think, by a factor of six. Wages haven't risen, and
:21:40. > :21:44.people have accepted the fact that they haven't got a wage rise, but
:21:44. > :21:51.they still have a job. A lot of firms are hanging in there, and
:21:51. > :21:55.holding on to as many people as they can, and the result of that is,
:21:55. > :22:00.people's income is being squeezed. I wondered if you could tell me how
:22:00. > :22:06.much you could give me for those on pawning, please? Not a problem.
:22:06. > :22:12.Today I have come in to pawn some coins, a sovereign which my father
:22:12. > :22:20.gave me for my 21st birthday, a Kruger and a coin I received on his
:22:20. > :22:24.death when he died, and a gold $10 coin, so I can buy some gas bottles
:22:24. > :22:30.to heat my flat. I want enough to heat my flat for the next month,
:22:30. > :22:34.and maybe some Christmas presents if people are lucky.
:22:34. > :22:40.Jeanine is a regular here, as well as new clients, Fish Brothers is
:22:40. > :22:48.seeing its traditional customers, borrowing larger amounts. On those
:22:48. > :22:52.ones we can do �1800 on those coins. The rising price of gold has made
:22:52. > :22:58.the coins more valuable. 90% of customers like this repay their
:22:59. > :23:02.loans own time, and get their pawned items back. Without pawning,
:23:02. > :23:07.without that money you get from here, what would happen? I wouldn't
:23:07. > :23:11.be able to buy the gas bottles until I next get paid, Will which
:23:11. > :23:20.will be at least another two weeks. I would have two weeks without
:23:20. > :23:26.heating. Is there no other option to get money, if it is not this,
:23:26. > :23:32.what is the implication? There is no other choice, really. I wouldn't
:23:32. > :23:38.go to my family for money, for a gas bottle. I would rather use what
:23:38. > :23:44.I have got myself, and raise the money that way. Then pay it back
:23:44. > :23:53.when I get paid. Why not go to your family, or your mum? They are
:23:53. > :23:57.pensioners. They are feeling tough times as well. For many, the
:23:57. > :24:03.pawnbroker is not just a quick solution. Would you like an
:24:03. > :24:06.envelope? It is now the only choice. But, at 5-6% interest, every month,
:24:06. > :24:09.it could never be described as cheap.
:24:09. > :24:13.Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
:24:13. > :24:17.Whichever way you look at it, pawnbroking is not a cheap option,
:24:17. > :24:20.it is an expensive way to borrow money? It is if you are doing it
:24:20. > :24:25.long-term, I'm talking about years. If you are talking about months,
:24:25. > :24:29.which is what pawnbroking is actually aimed at, then it is an
:24:29. > :24:34.expense -- it isn't expensive. Don't you rely on repeat customers,
:24:34. > :24:38.don't the people you speak about come back again and again, and it
:24:38. > :24:41.is all short-term loan, when you add them up they are expensive?
:24:41. > :24:51.They haven't got a bank account, and if you come to the pawnbroker,
:24:51. > :24:55.
:24:55. > :25:01.they are into a totally regulated These are incredible survivals.
:25:01. > :25:06.Someone has pawned a pair of boots. They have got two shillings for
:25:06. > :25:12.that. And even more poignant, I think, is that there is a ticket
:25:12. > :25:16.here of someone in 1907, who has pawned a blanket. One shilling and
:25:17. > :25:23.sixpence. Look at the date, 9th of December, in the cold mid-winter
:25:24. > :25:28.they are having to pawn their blanket, really tragic ticket.
:25:28. > :25:32.You have to go back a long way to find the last time pawnbrokers
:25:32. > :25:38.played such a major role in British life. At the turn of the last
:25:38. > :25:42.century, there were more than 700 in London, one on almost every
:25:42. > :25:46.street corner of the East End. was like a buffer for working
:25:46. > :25:50.people, without this support probably people would have starved,
:25:50. > :25:56.actually. This actually gave them a little bit of money, week by week,
:25:56. > :26:00.to the -- enable them to survive. Wages were very, very low at this
:26:00. > :26:10.period, really, it was actually essential they found a way to get
:26:10. > :26:16.
:26:17. > :26:21.some money to buy. Usually it was to buy food. Sometimes it is hard
:26:21. > :26:31.to listen to some of the stories, they are pretty heart-breaking.
:26:31. > :26:31.
:26:31. > :26:36.But on the other hand, I'm there to help them, in a sense. The back
:26:36. > :26:46.room of Gemini Jewellers, on the Isle of Sheppey. Here pawnbroking
:26:46. > :26:51.is still done the old fashioned way. The staff know all their customers,
:26:51. > :26:57.privacy and discretion are an important part of the business. It
:26:57. > :27:01.is busy, but few customers want to speak on camera. You do keep it
:27:01. > :27:05.under wraps a bit. I quite enjoy it t I have come to know the girls
:27:05. > :27:09.quite well over the few years I have been in. I have been in and
:27:09. > :27:16.out, got it out, put it back. Like today, I have come out and got it
:27:16. > :27:20.all out. I most probably be back in the new year, pawning again. But,
:27:20. > :27:25.you know, there is stigma and there isn't stigma about it. I could
:27:25. > :27:29.never tell my family that I go to the pawn shop.
:27:29. > :27:34.In the beginning when I first worked here, we had a very small
:27:34. > :27:39.box of pawnbroking, it has got now to three safes full of pawnbroking.
:27:39. > :27:43.We know most people, they come and start talking to you, and they will
:27:43. > :27:46.say their husband has lost their job. It is ever day living, that is
:27:46. > :27:50.-- every day living, that is why they pawn their jewellery, because
:27:50. > :27:53.they can't afford to live. We might not be pawning our boots and
:27:53. > :28:00.blankets to get through this crisis, but more of us are turning to
:28:00. > :28:03.something we can touch, something real. To make ends meet. I'm joined
:28:03. > :28:06.by the Labour MP, Stella Creasy, who has campaigned for the
:28:06. > :28:13.financial conduct authority to be given wide-ranging powers to cap
:28:13. > :28:15.the cost of cred di. And by Ray Perry from the -- credit, and by
:28:15. > :28:19.Ray Perry from the National Pawnbrokers Association. People
:28:19. > :28:23.can't get credit from the bank, isn't it best they go to the
:28:23. > :28:26.pawnbrokers, rather than some shadey back street money lender?
:28:26. > :28:29.Nobody is suggesting people go to illegal lenders. Most other
:28:29. > :28:32.countries cap the cost of credit, and they have lower levels of
:28:32. > :28:37.illegal lending and lower levels of personal debt. The Government has
:28:37. > :28:41.sat on this market for the last couple of years, watching British
:28:41. > :28:45.families struggling. We know next year will get worse. We need to
:28:45. > :28:49.tackle these, whether it is the payday loan industries or the
:28:49. > :28:53.higher purchase agreements, they are all scraming British consumers.
:28:53. > :28:57.Look at Fish there, daily interest rates, surely there should be some
:28:57. > :29:02.kind of cap? The daily interest rate is a legal requirement. They
:29:02. > :29:06.have to express a legal daily interest rate. Most pawnbrokers
:29:06. > :29:11.think of months, the average loan is typically about a month-and-a-
:29:11. > :29:17.half. They are not really thinking about loans that should last a year
:29:17. > :29:22.or more than that. What do you say to the accusation that it is all
:29:22. > :29:28.about payday loans as well, and the pawnbroking side of it lures people
:29:28. > :29:33.in to then be involved in payday loan, you have actually amalgamated
:29:33. > :29:37.the old tradition of pawnbroking with payday loans, very much a
:29:37. > :29:41.feature of these unstable times? is like if you go shopping in
:29:41. > :29:44.Tescos, there is a range of products in there available to the
:29:44. > :29:47.customer. They have that choice. Obviously I would say pawnbroking
:29:47. > :29:54.is better, it gives a better interest rate, and you are
:29:54. > :29:57.borrowing in a sense against itself. Why do so many pawnbrokers in
:29:57. > :30:03.Waltham stow ring them back with payday loans when they come into
:30:03. > :30:06.the shop. Surely you are pushing people into ways of borrowing that
:30:06. > :30:10.are unsustainable? In terms of pawnbroking I don't know who you
:30:10. > :30:16.are referring to, but pawnbroking is providing a good service. It is
:30:16. > :30:21.providing a means for somebody to get credit. Pawnbrokers are
:30:21. > :30:27.offering loans on �50,000 H & T, how is that a good service, it is
:30:27. > :30:33.due to be paid back in six months, that is �2,000 of interest if it is
:30:33. > :30:36.paid back in six months. I spoke to them, they put it there to attract
:30:36. > :30:40.business people, they do two of those a year. We don't necessarily
:30:40. > :30:45.need to talk about those examples. What you are talking about �50,000
:30:45. > :30:48.loans, it is interesting. This whole idea that you saw there, that
:30:48. > :30:51.the entrepeneur there that had to pawn is Porsche, he was saying
:30:52. > :30:54.there was no stigma. That is a different thing. This is just part
:30:54. > :30:59.and parcel of the economic situation we are in, where people
:30:59. > :31:05.have short-term jobs, people maybe can't get money from the bank. They
:31:05. > :31:07.need the pawnbroker. What that businessman proved is a damning
:31:07. > :31:10.indictment of Project Merlin, supposed to be lending to small
:31:10. > :31:14.businesss in this country. If we are lending in ways that push
:31:14. > :31:18.people into further debt, it is not good for them or the economy. It is
:31:18. > :31:24.the same with pawnbroking, that should be one of the cheapest forms
:31:24. > :31:28.of lending because they are secured against an item, the interest rates
:31:28. > :31:36.you charge bear no more interest to the British economy than payday
:31:36. > :31:40.lending. The Money-- A few programmes looked at the issue and
:31:40. > :31:45.said that pawnbroking on a typical one-month loan was cheaper than
:31:45. > :31:49.other options, and the OFT did a report saying the same last week.
:31:49. > :31:52.The argument seems to be that you do not have regulation that exists
:31:52. > :31:57.in other European countries, capping the cost of a loan. Would
:31:57. > :32:03.that not actually be a reasonable way to proceed, if you want
:32:03. > :32:07.pawnbroking, as it were, to become, not that it is illegitimate, but a
:32:07. > :32:12.more legitimate, unstigmatised form of credit? I'm not saying that
:32:12. > :32:16.Stella may have a point in some cases. You know, there is extreme,
:32:16. > :32:19.and indeed there are illegal loan sharks out there, I certainly do
:32:19. > :32:22.not condone that. From the association's point of view,
:32:22. > :32:26.wouldn't it benefit you to be prepared to take a cap on the cost
:32:26. > :32:30.of a loan? I suppose the obvious question would be what is that cap
:32:30. > :32:34.F it's at a certain level, people won't enter the business. It is, at
:32:34. > :32:38.the end of the day a business proposition to loan money. If it is
:32:38. > :32:41.too low. All these other countries have caps on the cost of credit,
:32:41. > :32:47.and they have pawnbroking and payday lending. Let's talk about
:32:47. > :32:52.the interest rates you are talking about, the Which? Study showed
:32:52. > :32:56.pawnbroking interest rates go between 90% and 290%, nobody here
:32:56. > :33:00.watching will think that is a low- interest loan? People watching
:33:00. > :33:04.tonight will know it will be a short-term loan, up to six weeks.
:33:04. > :33:10.Why do 20% of customers don't pay back in time and have to roll over
:33:10. > :33:15.or lose the item? It is 12%. official figures are that, I will
:33:15. > :33:18.listen to them? You can't role over a pawnbroking loan, you are loaning
:33:18. > :33:23.against a particular item, it is your item. The worst that can
:33:23. > :33:25.happen is you lose the item. websites for Fish Brothers says
:33:25. > :33:29.clearly they will offer you the opportunity to extend the terms of
:33:29. > :33:33.the loan, what is that if it is not rolling it over? It is starting a
:33:33. > :33:36.new loan, you can't stop somebody coming back another time with
:33:36. > :33:41.another item. Let's be honest, Stella Creasy, for lots of people n
:33:41. > :33:45.a sense, what you are doing now is further stigmatising it, as it were.
:33:45. > :33:49.For pom some people who don't have a bank account, pawnbroking is
:33:49. > :33:54.something that is facing you in the high street, there is regulation
:33:54. > :33:57.and further regulation in 2014, it is a legitimate form of credit?
:33:57. > :34:01.Absolutely, we do nothing to stigmatise people, we are trying to
:34:01. > :34:06.help them. We stand outside companies like Fish Brothers and
:34:06. > :34:10.Cash Converters, all 18 of them in Walthamstow, and helping people to
:34:10. > :34:13.access the Credit Union and get good financial advice. I won't stop
:34:13. > :34:17.people borrowing to put food on the table, people will doing that in
:34:17. > :34:20.this country, and nas next year will be worse when energy and food
:34:20. > :34:25.prices go up, and you guys will make millions unless we as
:34:25. > :34:29.politicians do something about it. Let's be clear, pawnbroking is
:34:29. > :34:32.legitimate? It is, it is covered by the game governance as banks.
:34:32. > :34:36.Presumably you do risk analysis, presumably you think you are really
:34:36. > :34:39.in a growth business, as long as the banks won't lend and there is
:34:39. > :34:42.problems there, you think you are a growth business? I think the OFT
:34:42. > :34:45.are right when they say it is another form of borrowing money,
:34:45. > :34:49.what is the difference between going to a bank and a pawnbroker,
:34:49. > :34:53.the bank will charge you for more an overdraft, but not declared as
:34:53. > :34:57.part of an APR. We have to stop there. Russia and America are
:34:57. > :35:01.engaged in a new tit for tat battle, after President Putin accused the
:35:01. > :35:06.US of poisoning relations between the two countries, and today
:35:06. > :35:10.threatened to ban Americans from adopting Russian children. The
:35:10. > :35:13.stand-off began over the called Magnitsky List, a law of that name,
:35:13. > :35:20.recently signed by President Obama l ban from the US those associated
:35:20. > :35:25.with the detention and death in a Moscow jail of Sergeir Magnitsky,
:35:25. > :35:35.who uncovered a $230 million fraud perpetrate bid Russian officials.
:35:35. > :35:39.
:35:39. > :35:45.Putin has promised a reaction. It was his first major press
:35:45. > :35:51.conference since his third term as President, and he was in hawkish
:35:51. > :35:56.move. President Obama signing a declaration to freeze assets and
:35:56. > :36:00.denying American visas for certain Russians. He said he supported a
:36:00. > :36:03.proposal by the lower house, Americans prevented from adopting
:36:03. > :36:06.Russian children. TRANSLATION: regards this very topic you have
:36:06. > :36:11.touched upon now, the adoption of our children by foreign citizens,
:36:11. > :36:17.as far as I know the results of the opinion polls, the majority of
:36:17. > :36:20.Russian citizens have a negative attitude towards such practices. We
:36:20. > :36:26.should be able to cope with this which ourselves. According to the
:36:26. > :36:32.White House, there are 700,000 registered orphans in Russia,
:36:32. > :36:37.100,000 in institutional care. In 2011, 3,400 of these children were
:36:37. > :36:41.adopted by foreign families. Of those, nearly a third, 956 children
:36:41. > :36:45.were adopted by Americans. It is an issue that has angered many
:36:45. > :36:49.Russians, sensitive to the implication that they must be hard-
:36:49. > :36:51.hearted or unable to take care of their own. The resentment was made
:36:51. > :36:56.worse by stories of the ill- treatment of some Russian children
:36:56. > :37:00.in the US. A child died after being locked in a car in the heat. And in
:37:00. > :37:04.2010, an American woman sent back a seven-year-old Russian boy,
:37:04. > :37:11.complaining he had behavioural problems she didn't want him any
:37:11. > :37:17.more. But Americans were furious that idea of a ban on Russian
:37:17. > :37:22.children. It means they will remain in care. Data shows us that
:37:23. > :37:28.Russians are not inclined to adopt them, the polling data shows that
:37:28. > :37:32.the majority of Russians support intercountry adoption. It is hard
:37:32. > :37:35.to deny children are not being used as political pawns. This is not
:37:35. > :37:40.just a row about children, the Russians are furious that the
:37:40. > :37:45.Magnitsky Act, named in response to a Russian lower, Sergei Magnitsky
:37:45. > :37:49.who died in jail in 2009, he was about to go on trial for fraud.
:37:49. > :37:56.Sergei Magnitsky had alleged that a circle of tax and registry
:37:56. > :38:00.officials had conspired in a $230 million fraud scheme. The Magnitsky
:38:00. > :38:05.Act normalises trade relations with Russia, but allows officials to be
:38:05. > :38:13.bared from the US, if they are involved in ruption or human rights
:38:13. > :38:17.abuses. Putin's response went -- corruption or human rights abuses.
:38:17. > :38:22.Putin's went beyond. He said they would draw up a list of their own
:38:23. > :38:27.of Americans banned for human rights violations. TRANSLATION:
:38:27. > :38:31.have already talking about this, Abu Ghraib, very much talked about
:38:31. > :38:41.in the world. Guantanamo prison, they keep people there for many
:38:41. > :38:46.years, without any crimes, any charges. Even as if in the middle-
:38:46. > :38:52.age, they legaliseed tortures. Just imagine that we have something like
:38:52. > :38:56.this in our country. They will eat us. The Magnitsky Act has clearly
:38:56. > :39:00.not helped Russian-American diplomacy, but President Putin was
:39:00. > :39:03.claiming today, it has poisoned relations between the two sides.
:39:03. > :39:07.Even so, there are growing pressures here in Britain, that a
:39:07. > :39:10.variety of the acts should be introduced here, to stop corrupt
:39:10. > :39:12.Russian officials, and those involved in human rights abuses,
:39:12. > :39:16.coming to London to spend their money.
:39:16. > :39:20.It is about make sure that where you have individuals, responsible
:39:20. > :39:24.for torture, and some of the other most heinous crimes, they are not
:39:24. > :39:28.just free to Waltz into this country, buy up property, or do a
:39:28. > :39:32.bit of light Christmas shopping on the kings road. Why starting Russia,
:39:32. > :39:36.there are human rights abusers all around the world? That is a God
:39:36. > :39:40.point. And when the House of Commons unanimously called for this
:39:40. > :39:44.kind of law back in March, they said we wanted to see it all around
:39:44. > :39:48.the globe. Before becoming low, the measure banning Russian children
:39:48. > :39:52.being adopted by Americans, has to pass a third read anything the
:39:52. > :39:54.State Duma. After that it goes to the Upper House, then it requires
:39:54. > :40:00.President Putin's signature. Some of his ministers are known to be
:40:00. > :40:06.against it, regarding it as eye- for-eye logic, but Putin's angry
:40:06. > :40:10.speech today suggests they could be overruled.
:40:10. > :40:14.Alexander Nekrassov is a journalist and former Kremlin adviser. In
:40:14. > :40:19.Washington, we have the head of the Russia time at the Eurasia Group at
:40:19. > :40:24.this tang. Do you think this has the make -- think-tank. Do you
:40:24. > :40:27.think this has the makings of a serious row? When you start to ban
:40:27. > :40:34.American citizens from adopting Russian children. It is a little
:40:34. > :40:37.bit over the stop. If we had mutual blacklists going on, that is what
:40:37. > :40:42.everybody expects. But the Kremlin has gone a step too far, Americans
:40:42. > :40:47.are taking it personally it is a danger that it will spill over into
:40:47. > :40:50.the range of national security and range of mutual interests that the
:40:50. > :40:54.United States and Russia have. is a long way down the line, we
:40:54. > :40:57.think, because, as was said, this has to be signed off eventually by
:40:57. > :41:01.Vladimir Putin. Now, he was sounding pretty toughed today, but
:41:01. > :41:06.do you think he will take this all -- tough today, but do you think he
:41:06. > :41:10.will take this all the way? I think he will, the Kremlin is very angry
:41:10. > :41:13.that the United States have selected a specific one country,
:41:13. > :41:18.accusing its officials of corruption and human rights abuse.
:41:18. > :41:22.But without, for example, what about China, what about Saudi
:41:22. > :41:25.Arabia, what about Bahrain, there are many countries. The official
:41:25. > :41:28.there is are travelling freely to the west. This is the point that
:41:28. > :41:34.the Kremlin is making. This is hypocrisy. Because you are picking
:41:34. > :41:38.out one country, on the basis of one incident, where no-one has any
:41:38. > :41:43.firm proof, yet, that these people were guilty. No, but Magnitsky did
:41:44. > :41:49.uncover the fraud. He did uncover the fraud. But there is still a
:41:49. > :41:54.question over who actually was involved in the events leading to
:41:54. > :42:00.his murder. Cliff Kupchan, the question of this list, importantly,
:42:00. > :42:10.it calls for freezing of assets. Now, without firm proof, you know,
:42:10. > :42:12.
:42:12. > :42:15.can America go about freezing the assets of Russian citizens?
:42:15. > :42:21.firm proof, there is very little attempt by the Russians to look
:42:21. > :42:24.into what happened to Mr Magnitsky. The President called for an
:42:24. > :42:31.investigation and nothing really happened. In fact, further charges
:42:31. > :42:36.have been brought against Mr Magnitsky, posthumously. This is a
:42:36. > :42:39.very unfortunate affair. I think that it also very much got involved,
:42:39. > :42:46.we haven't talked about the other half of the coin here, the other
:42:46. > :42:51.half of the story, which is that this Magnitsky Bill, was linked to
:42:51. > :42:55.legislation, that allowed American companies to take advantage of
:42:55. > :42:59.Russia's WTO accession, which Russia very, very badly wanted.
:42:59. > :43:03.There was a quid pro quo in American politics. This will very
:43:04. > :43:07.much promote US-Russia trade, but on the other hand it will carry it
:43:07. > :43:10.along, because Congress insisted that human rights be addressed, it
:43:10. > :43:15.carried along this much more controversial act. First of all,
:43:15. > :43:19.the argument that the President and the Putin didn't investigate it
:43:19. > :43:23.properly. Your country didn't investigate the war in Iraq
:43:23. > :43:30.properly, you can go down this road and never stop. The point here is
:43:30. > :43:34.this, this is an act, which has this poisonous element in it, and
:43:34. > :43:39.they are accusing people of something that hasn't been proven,
:43:39. > :43:44.and, and, freezing other people's assets, the citizens of another
:43:44. > :43:50.country. This can open a floodgate that such thing nobody can stop
:43:50. > :43:54.them. In the Kremlin, behind the facade of the Kremlin, is there a
:43:54. > :44:00.lot of saber-rattling going on, or do you think it will be resolved?
:44:00. > :44:03.think that Putin will sign that bill. I think that it will stay
:44:03. > :44:06.there. I don't think that economically, business-wise, we
:44:06. > :44:11.will have problems. I think it will develop. But the stand-off will
:44:11. > :44:14.continue, obviously. Just talking, and picking up now what President
:44:14. > :44:18.Putin said earlier, in terms of spilling over into other elements
:44:18. > :44:22.of relations. Let's talk about, for example, relations over Syria,
:44:22. > :44:25.relations over Iran, do you think the Russians will, there was some
:44:25. > :44:29.accord, we thought there was going to be some meeting of minds on this,
:44:29. > :44:33.do you think there will be a firming of attitudes on this?
:44:33. > :44:36.think there will be problems. Syria will be obviously, they won't agree
:44:36. > :44:41.on Syria at the moment, and Iran as well. But this particular case, I
:44:41. > :44:46.don't think it influences that. Clearly, Cliff Kupchan, the fact is,
:44:46. > :44:51.the Americans are prepared for a backlash? The Americans are
:44:51. > :44:57.prepared for a backlash. And I don't think that one particular
:44:57. > :45:03.issue can become compartmentalised. That is the great fear here. That
:45:03. > :45:07.the road to settling the Iranian nuclear crisis leads through Moscow
:45:07. > :45:10.and Syria it leads through Moscow. We have serious differences on
:45:10. > :45:14.National Missile Defence. If, indeed, Mr Putin signs this bill, I
:45:14. > :45:18.happen to think there is a good chance he won't, he left himself a
:45:18. > :45:20.big, big trap door in the conference today. In the news
:45:20. > :45:25.conference. His own Foreign Minister has condemned it, the head
:45:25. > :45:28.of the Upper House has condemned it. The minister in charged of
:45:28. > :45:33.implementing it has condemned it. In your view, do you think that
:45:33. > :45:39.behind the scenes, there is a lot of negotiation and diplomacy going
:45:39. > :45:44.on? I actually think Mr Putin got out over his skis here. I think
:45:44. > :45:50.that they floated an idea within his party, United Russia, everybody
:45:50. > :45:54.got behind it, I don't think they expected the huge backlash when his
:45:54. > :45:58.own Government to, especially the adoption provision. I think they
:45:58. > :46:08.will both back down. Just time for the papers. The front page of the
:46:08. > :46:36.
:46:36. > :46:46.That's all tonight, we will be here with more tomorrow. Until then,
:46:46. > :46:52.
:46:52. > :46:56.with more tomorrow. Until then, good night.
:46:56. > :47:00.Weather warnings are still afoot across the north-east. Particularly
:47:00. > :47:04.eastern Scotland, through the night, and into Friday as well. Some
:47:04. > :47:07.pretty horrendous weather around, we could have further flooding
:47:07. > :47:12.problems. A little bit of mist and fog elsewhere. It could stay grey
:47:12. > :47:15.for the east coast of England for much of the day. It does look dryer
:47:15. > :47:21.than we have seen during the last 24 hours. That is not to say river
:47:21. > :47:24.level won't continue to increase, all that rain needs to make its way
:47:24. > :47:28.down stream. At least it is dryer weather-wise for Friday. If you are
:47:28. > :47:31.travelling stay tuned to the forecast. We have more wet and
:47:31. > :47:34.windy weather to come as we move into the weekend. A dryer day for
:47:35. > :47:38.Wales, the south west, a dryer day for Northern Ireland, it could be a
:47:38. > :47:42.bit murky first thing, that will take time to clear. As we move back
:47:42. > :47:47.into Scotland, we come back into the weather system, which will
:47:47. > :47:52.still be affecting northern and eastern areas. Not just heavy winds.
:47:52. > :47:56.Snow over the Grampians. Into Saturday, more rain makes its way
:47:56. > :47:59.right across the country. That is Friday into Saturday, another amber
:47:59. > :48:03.warning from the Met Office is in force as there is an amber warning
:48:03. > :48:07.out for the night and tomorrow. You can see that is also the same for
:48:07. > :48:10.Saturday, further south through London, Cardiff, Birmingham and