:00:13. > :00:17.Thinking the unthinkable. Why should pensioners carry on being
:00:17. > :00:21.exempt from welfare cuts. Two distinguished senior citizens give
:00:21. > :00:24.us their views. We are all in this together, we have to confront the
:00:24. > :00:28.crisis together, and that means elderly people have to be ready to
:00:28. > :00:31.give up benefits they don't need. Elderly people have already paid
:00:31. > :00:35.their share during their working lives, they paid taxes and national
:00:35. > :00:40.insurance, and are entitled to the benefits of that.
:00:40. > :00:43.We will debate, does grey power have a politicians running scared
:00:43. > :00:47.from attacking the state pension and Winter Fuel Allowance. Also
:00:47. > :00:52.tonight, as the men accused of the rape and murder of an Indian
:00:52. > :00:56.student appear in court, we will reveal just how appallingly women
:00:57. > :01:06.in India are treated, kidnapped and sold into sexual enslavement, some
:01:07. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :01:15.of them. We have an exclusive interview with
:01:15. > :01:19.a bowl wood veteran and activist. Without a doubt, India is a
:01:19. > :01:23.patriarchal society, and we have internalised a patriarchal mind set
:01:23. > :01:28.in which the girl child is not given the value she deserve. Also
:01:28. > :01:33.on the programme tonight? I'm a Lib Dem who has just torn up his
:01:33. > :01:38.membership card. I joined the party first in 1973, I'm afraid, I cannot
:01:38. > :01:42.now say that I want to represent the Lib Dems. On the day the Deputy
:01:42. > :01:52.Prime Minister begins his very own weekly date with the people, Steve
:01:52. > :01:55.
:01:55. > :01:57.Smith has the definitive take on the political radio phone-in.
:01:58. > :02:01.Good evening, David Cameron believes that pensioners should be
:02:01. > :02:05.a protected species, and the figures speak for themselves. Half
:02:05. > :02:09.of all benefits spending goes on pensioners. Overwhelmingly on the
:02:09. > :02:14.weekly pension, but also free bus travel, Winter Fuel Allowance, and
:02:14. > :02:18.free TV license. And now that the decision has been made not to make
:02:18. > :02:22.major changes to the way the Retail Price Index is calculated, it is
:02:22. > :02:26.another boost for older people. Ken Clarke may have hinted that the
:02:26. > :02:30.next Tory manifesto might not make such happy reading for pensioners,
:02:30. > :02:35.but right now, when everybody else, including children, have to make do
:02:35. > :02:39.with less to reduce the deficit. Is it morally right to hold pensioner
:02:39. > :02:45.benefit as sacrosanct. First tonight, we have two pensioners'
:02:45. > :02:49.views, Dot Gibson and the author Stanley Johnson. We have to start
:02:49. > :02:53.with the idea of the road sign, two old people crossing the road with a
:02:53. > :02:57.stick. It is not that any longer. I think the state pension begins at a
:02:57. > :03:02.much too early an age, I think the idea that you necessarily qualify
:03:02. > :03:06.for a state pension at the age of 60 or 65, that just doesn't make
:03:06. > :03:11.sense now, given the demographic situation we are in, we will all
:03:11. > :03:16.live until we are 80, 90, 100, you can't, as a country, afford to pay
:03:16. > :03:22.pensions for decades. I think after 40 years or more of work, people
:03:22. > :03:25.are entitled to a decent length of time in retirement. I don't agree
:03:25. > :03:29.with putting up the age of retirement, which both Governments
:03:29. > :03:33.have now done. We are in an economic and financial crunch and
:03:33. > :03:37.we all have to contribute to getting out of this. Older people
:03:37. > :03:41.are suffering very much under the cuts. We know there will be more
:03:41. > :03:45.they are not wealthy, and do find things extremely difficult to
:03:45. > :03:48.manage. The younger generation, who have, indeed, been hit by house
:03:48. > :03:51.prices on the one hand, and the cost of education on the other.
:03:51. > :03:55.They have been hit by the fact that they are also funding, as I
:03:55. > :03:58.mentioned a moment ago, state pensions for the elderly, on an
:03:58. > :04:02.increasing scale, and probably medical care for the elderly. If
:04:02. > :04:08.you go down the route saying the state will also pay for social care,
:04:08. > :04:11.then the burdens which will be bourne, by, as it were, the working
:04:11. > :04:14.population, will be become, absolutely unsupportable. It is the
:04:14. > :04:18.principle of paying tax and insurance, and then being entitled
:04:18. > :04:22.to the benefits arising from that. Everybody pays their tax and
:04:22. > :04:25.insurance, they should get universal benefits. The problem
:04:25. > :04:29.about universal benefits is that they are universal. And by
:04:29. > :04:33.definition, they give to some sectors of society, benefits which
:04:33. > :04:38.they don't actually need. Winter Fuel Allowance, social care, old
:04:38. > :04:42.people's bus pass, our country as a whole, can't afford these benefits
:04:42. > :04:47.for people who can well afford to do without them. We have to
:04:47. > :04:52.understand that the state pension is among the lowest in Europe. We
:04:52. > :04:56.have already seen cuts in housing benefits, cuts in day centres,
:04:56. > :05:00.meals on wheels and things like this, which are really affecting
:05:01. > :05:06.many millions of pensioners who feel lonely and isolated. I would
:05:06. > :05:10.say we are the luckiest generation, we are what is called the "baby-
:05:10. > :05:14.boomers", we left school and university at a time when jobs were
:05:14. > :05:19.easy to get, we earned large salaries. Look at the younger
:05:19. > :05:23.generation, the cost of education is tough, and the work market is
:05:23. > :05:27.tough. They have a huge amount of bills to pay for the generation
:05:27. > :05:31.that have preceded them. We shouldn't push our luck too far.
:05:32. > :05:36.The generation I belonged to, I was ten at the end of the Second World
:05:36. > :05:39.War, has benefited greatly from the welfare state. But I think that
:05:39. > :05:46.this generation, the younger generations today have to
:05:46. > :05:49.understand that welfare state didn't come into being out of thin
:05:49. > :05:53.air, it was fought for, and they have to stand up and defend it,
:05:53. > :05:57.alongside us. Elderly people have to realise that a large part of the
:05:57. > :06:02.nation's wealth is now spent on dealing with the problems of the
:06:02. > :06:07.elderly. We have to say to ourselves, can, as a nation, we
:06:07. > :06:14.afford, can we afford that? Well, there you have two personal views.
:06:14. > :06:19.But we love our hard data here on Newsnight, we crunched the number.
:06:19. > :06:24.Welfare is by far the biggest element in Government spending. By
:06:24. > :06:28.2016, it will account for nearly one pound in every three spent by
:06:28. > :06:36.the state. The Government has already set out cuts in welfare,
:06:36. > :06:40.amounting to �18 billion by 2014-15, and, this week, they successfully
:06:40. > :06:46.introduced a bill that would limit the rise in certain benefits to 1%
:06:46. > :06:51.a year for the next three years. That's a cut in real terms. However,
:06:51. > :06:56.none of these changes have had any great impact on pensioners, despite
:06:56. > :07:02.the fact that Treasury figures show, that over half of all welfare
:07:02. > :07:07.spending goes on them. Mostly the state pension itself, but also
:07:07. > :07:11.benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance, which costs �2.1 billion
:07:11. > :07:19.each year. And goes even to millionaires. On top of this, there
:07:19. > :07:23.are other benefits, like free TV licenses for the over 75s: �588
:07:23. > :07:30.million a year. And concessionary bus travel, which could be costing
:07:30. > :07:34.up to �1 billion a year. David Cameron made a specific pledge in
:07:34. > :07:39.the 2010 election campaign, to protect these benefits. He's
:07:39. > :07:44.insisted that this is a promise he does not intend to break in this
:07:45. > :07:50.parliament. Pensioners have also benefited from the called triple
:07:50. > :07:57.lock, introduced by the coalition, through which the state pension
:07:57. > :08:02.would rise by whichever is higher, out of RPI, prices, or 2.5%. Last
:08:02. > :08:09.year, as inflation peaked, the increase was set at 5.2%, giving
:08:09. > :08:14.pensioners the biggest-ever cash increase in their pension. So, is
:08:15. > :08:18.it all sunny in the retirement garden? Far from it, the coalition
:08:18. > :08:24.change the inflation -- changed the inflation measure, used to up-rate
:08:24. > :08:27.occupational pensions from RPI to CPI, which is, generally lower.
:08:28. > :08:33.They also introduced the change to the age-related income tax
:08:33. > :08:36.allowance, which was quickly dubbed the Granny Tax. This, according to
:08:36. > :08:43.the Institute for Fiscal Studies, will particularly affect people
:08:43. > :08:47.retiring next year, they will be worse off by nearly �270 a year.
:08:47. > :08:51.People who buy anuts with their pensions have also been --
:08:51. > :08:55.aknewties with their pensions have also been affected by Government
:08:56. > :09:01.policy, as bank rates have been so low, the yield from these is low as
:09:01. > :09:04.well. In any case, any talk of immunity from cuts, is likely to
:09:04. > :09:12.prompt a hollow laugh from the two million pensioners judged to be
:09:12. > :09:17.living in poverty, and the million said to be living in fuel poverty.
:09:17. > :09:21.They have to spend more than 10% of their income on heating. This
:09:21. > :09:26.consideration, combined with the naked political fact, that older
:09:26. > :09:32.people vote more, will give any politician pause for thought before
:09:32. > :09:35.making significant cuts to pensioners' benefits. Stanley
:09:35. > :09:39.Johnson and Dot Gibson are both here, as is Ann Pettifor, director
:09:39. > :09:42.of Prime Economics, and Ruth Porter from the Institute of Economic
:09:42. > :09:45.Affairs. We will begin with the Winter Fuel Allowance. Tomorrow
:09:45. > :09:49.morning's front page in the Mail, says it is enough to make you
:09:49. > :09:58.shudder, and the temperatures are set to plunge to minus ten, and the
:09:58. > :10:03.average heating bill for the elderly soaring to �1,350. It is
:10:03. > :10:09.only �2 billion plus of the spend on the Winter Fuel Allowance, but
:10:09. > :10:13.the very universality is as divisive as it is cohesive.
:10:13. > :10:16.spent �2 billion bailing out the City of London and that wasn't
:10:16. > :10:20.devisive. We spend 2% of the social security budget on some of the
:10:20. > :10:24.perks that the pensioners get. Of course, as a society and democracy,
:10:24. > :10:29.we might want to shift where we put the burden, and where we reward
:10:29. > :10:32.pensioners and whether we do or not by margins, but, honestly, it is so
:10:32. > :10:36.minuscule, in terms of our economy. What we are doing is we are looking
:10:36. > :10:41.at one side of the balance sheet, the spending side. We are doing
:10:41. > :10:46.nothing about generating income. To pay for that. We are shrinking the
:10:46. > :10:51.income side of the economy. You know, so I find this really
:10:51. > :10:57.infantile, the economics. Infantile economics, but it is getting the
:10:57. > :11:02.Winter Fuel Allowance at 60, it is totemic? We might want to have an
:11:02. > :11:07.argument about this, it is such small beer, and to break a
:11:07. > :11:11.political principle of universality, which is a moral, and philosophical,
:11:11. > :11:13.do we want to live in a society where the rich get richer. We have
:11:13. > :11:18.just done it with child benefit, therefore, the argument would be,
:11:18. > :11:22.if we are all in this together, then, you cut child benefit, you
:11:22. > :11:26.actually cut the allowances for childcare from 80% to 70%, they are
:11:26. > :11:30.taking the hit at that end of the scale. You know, presumably there
:11:30. > :11:34.is an argument which says that everybody has to take a hit? You
:11:34. > :11:38.talk about people, you worked for 40 years, and you want to enjoy
:11:38. > :11:42.your retirement, but let's say and hope that you live to the ripe old
:11:42. > :11:45.age of 95. Yes. Are you really saying there will be enough in the
:11:45. > :11:48.pot to pay you Winter Fuel Allowance, free bus travel, and
:11:49. > :11:54.increased state pension, all the way there? You know they fix the
:11:54. > :12:01.pot, and then they tell us that we have to be bound by the things that
:12:01. > :12:06.they say. In actual fact, the rich are paying less tax, the poor are
:12:06. > :12:11.paying more, people are on short- term contracts, very low pay, and
:12:11. > :12:14.are living on benefits, and it isn't a question of pensioners
:12:14. > :12:19.against younger people who are at work, or who are unemployed, it is
:12:19. > :12:21.a question of rich and poor. The pensioners come within that
:12:21. > :12:25.category. There is this myth that the amount of money which has been
:12:25. > :12:28.paid into the system is enough to care for us in our old age, it is
:12:28. > :12:33.simply not. We have now got a situation where a large part of the
:12:33. > :12:37.bill for old age is being passed on to future generations. Part that
:12:37. > :12:41.have is through the national debt we have accrued, that future
:12:41. > :12:44.generations will have to pay back, part of it is younger generation,
:12:44. > :12:48.the working generation, are, at the moment, facing massive cuts to
:12:48. > :12:55.their benefits. Also a large part of it is through tax rises on those
:12:55. > :13:00.who are working. The calculation was when the pension was set at 65,
:13:00. > :13:03.that people would live to the age of 66, now, thankfully, people are
:13:03. > :13:08.living longer, and what was put in during their lifetime, is not
:13:08. > :13:11.enough for their healthcare and everything else. That is right, we
:13:12. > :13:16.have not grasped the demographic situation. One third of the babies
:13:16. > :13:20.born today are going to live to 100. That is what they say, is that
:13:20. > :13:25.really true? Unless global warming intervene, it may do. Is that
:13:25. > :13:28.really true? My generation had a good diet, we were given cod liver
:13:28. > :13:32.oil, orange juice and the rest of it, we didn't overeat on all these
:13:32. > :13:35.fast foods, but there is a generation now that has got this
:13:35. > :13:39.problem, together with the fact. People are living longer, and all
:13:39. > :13:46.the Government is doing, they are increasing. We are living longer.
:13:46. > :13:49.They are increasing the retirement age by 67 by 2028, it should be 678
:13:49. > :13:53.in the next ten years. You are living longer because of the
:13:53. > :13:58.benefits that have accrued because of better medicine, and so forth?
:13:58. > :14:01.The welfare state. They cost money? The we is do we want to live in a
:14:01. > :14:07.civilised society, a society in which we say, first of all, we make
:14:07. > :14:12.our young people unemployed, we strip our mothers of child benefit,
:14:12. > :14:18.we impoverish our children, and impoverish our elderly and allow
:14:18. > :14:21.the City of London to get richer. That is not civilised. Taking away
:14:21. > :14:25.the City of London for a moment, there was a huge issue, and it
:14:25. > :14:29.still goes on, that in a way there was a moral duty, there was a
:14:30. > :14:32.social compact here. Post-war, the war generation, that lived through
:14:32. > :14:35.terrible depravation, and so forth, and there was goodwill towards them.
:14:35. > :14:40.Now we are going to people who are pensioners, who actually, probably,
:14:40. > :14:45.lived high on the hog, and who are now in their late 50s and early 60,
:14:45. > :14:50.and are actually going to have to pay back. We worked very hard.
:14:50. > :14:56.Younger people work very hard? you think a man. A large number of
:14:56. > :15:02.people are unemployed thanks to the Government's policies. Could a chap
:15:02. > :15:05.intervene in this argument, I'm slightly outnumbered here. They are
:15:05. > :15:09.not abolishing the Winter Fuel Allowance, it is not abolishing the
:15:09. > :15:13.gas. The issue is, should the people who are very well off
:15:13. > :15:15.benefit from those? Would you suggest that the evidence, the
:15:15. > :15:20.evidence would suggest from what happened with child benefit reform,
:15:20. > :15:23.actually means testing, the bureaucracy of that could be
:15:23. > :15:29.incredibly counter-productive. that case, where do you cut it off.
:15:29. > :15:34.There are only 250,000 pensioners out of 11 million who are actually
:15:34. > :15:37.paying the higher rate of tax. It won't mean anything. It is peanuts.
:15:37. > :15:43.What about the intergenerational point, do we have a duty? It is
:15:43. > :15:46.interesting, if you go back and look at what Beverge intended with
:15:46. > :15:50.the welfare state, it was something that was very minimal, something
:15:50. > :15:53.there to ensure the most vulnerable people in our society were
:15:53. > :15:56.protected. Everyone agrees that is still what we want. Everyone wants
:15:56. > :15:59.vulnerable elderly people to afford to heat their homes, that is not in
:15:59. > :16:03.question. But the point is, if we want to live in a civilised society,
:16:03. > :16:08.where we get along with each other, where we don't resent each other,
:16:08. > :16:14.we need to live in a society where we're not overly taxed, where we
:16:14. > :16:17.are not putting bebt on to the next generation. -- Debt on to the next
:16:17. > :16:21.generation. What would you do to the state pension, would you like
:16:21. > :16:25.to see it raised so everyone is on �10,000, what would you like to
:16:25. > :16:28.see? The most important thing is we put up the retirement age, that is
:16:28. > :16:31.part of why we have ended up in a lot of the problems that we have
:16:31. > :16:36.ended up with. The Government should be looking at putting it up
:16:36. > :16:41.probably to 68, within the next ten years, as a start. I think also we
:16:41. > :16:44.need to move to a system where we say we care for ourselves in our
:16:44. > :16:47.old age through saving, and at the moment, it is very difficult for
:16:47. > :16:51.people to save, because taxes are so high, because they are paying
:16:51. > :16:58.for things like Winter Fuel Allowances. Interest rates are so
:16:58. > :17:01.low. There are 60% of people at work are getting benefits, it is
:17:01. > :17:05.not that the unemployed are getting most of the benefits, it is people
:17:05. > :17:09.at work that are getting the benefits, the wages are so low.
:17:09. > :17:12.What do you say to Ruth Porter's idea that actually, it is not about
:17:12. > :17:17.means testing, it is not necessarily even about things like,
:17:17. > :17:21.you know, fuel poverty and the Winter Fuel Allowance, it is about
:17:21. > :17:25.a fundamental change to raise the retirement age successively and
:17:25. > :17:31.quickly towards 70, because actually n your middle to late 60s
:17:31. > :17:36.you are not old? If Ruth is happy to go on working until she's 70,
:17:36. > :17:40.that's fine. It should be 80, come on. And you know, if Ruth that's
:17:40. > :17:45.fine. But people get very tired, I know that people that have worked
:17:45. > :17:49.very hard that are very grateful for their pensions. I wonder if you
:17:49. > :17:54.would like to work on a building site when you are 80, you might be
:17:54. > :17:59.able to write, but you won't be able to work on building sites.
:17:59. > :18:03.have done a lot of jobs in my life. Would you expect somebody in their
:18:03. > :18:08.mid-70s still to be working on huge big projects on the City as steel
:18:08. > :18:13.workers? Somebody in their mid-70s today might hope to retire at 75 or
:18:13. > :18:17.whatever. I'm saying the way the demographics are going, we will be
:18:17. > :18:21.living much longer than 70, into the 80s and 90s t makes sense to
:18:21. > :18:26.raise the retirement age. It is about harmony between what Ruth
:18:26. > :18:28.seems to be suggesting, and the more likelihood of
:18:28. > :18:33.intergenerational conflict and resentment, if something's not done
:18:33. > :18:37.about this, do you believe that? don't believe particularly in the
:18:37. > :18:39.intergenerational conflict, we will go in that direction if we do
:18:39. > :18:44.ridiculous things. I take the question of social care. There is a
:18:44. > :18:49.whole lot of ideas going around now, that some how society must pay for
:18:49. > :18:53.the old age of people, not just the health of people, but the general
:18:53. > :18:57.caring for people in old age. Can you imagine how we could possibly
:18:57. > :19:03.afford that. Why should people who benefit from house price rises not
:19:03. > :19:10.have to sell their houses to fund their old age. I can't see that.
:19:10. > :19:15.Dot? The whole point about social care, and healthcare, is that it is
:19:15. > :19:20.possible to have a national care system, like the NHS, paid for
:19:20. > :19:28.through, just 1.5p in the pound on tax. Social care? Let me make this
:19:28. > :19:33.point, what is left out of the picture completely, the Women's
:19:33. > :19:39.Royal Voluntary Service did a survey, which is generally accepted
:19:39. > :19:43.as a correct survey that shows, that the benefit to the state of
:19:43. > :19:48.pensioners volunteering, caring and the work that they do, is actually
:19:48. > :19:53.�40 billion a year. That is a huge A money, Ruth Porter. It is a huge
:19:53. > :19:56.amount of money. Obviously retired people make a huge contribution.
:19:56. > :20:01.Which can't reduce everything down to some monetary value. That's what
:20:01. > :20:06.you are doing. I think actually it is about having decent
:20:06. > :20:11.relationships within families. I think by making it monetary you
:20:11. > :20:14.reduce it, in the same way that you take care of elderly relatives.
:20:14. > :20:19.Delhi, amid heavy police presence, and the on going protests, suspects
:20:19. > :20:23.in the case of a fatal gang rape of a 23-year-old student in a moving
:20:23. > :20:31.bus in New Delhi appeared in court. Thousands have demanded justice for
:20:31. > :20:35.the young woman whose death shocked India, and which prompts anguish
:20:35. > :20:39.soul--- anguished soul-searching in a country where violence against
:20:39. > :20:44.women goes further than this case. The widespread killing of female
:20:44. > :20:49.foetuses is well known. But less well known is trafficking of young
:20:49. > :20:59.women to make up for the shortages. We have a World Service
:20:59. > :21:00.
:21:00. > :21:05.Investigation. Calcutta, the capital of West
:21:05. > :21:12.Bengal, choking roads and bustling markets, where young women face a
:21:12. > :21:17.growing threat. This girl was 15, when two years ago neighbourhood
:21:17. > :21:21.boys invited her to a local fair. There someone, a stranger, offered
:21:21. > :21:26.her a soft drink. The next thing she remembers is waking up on a
:21:26. > :21:30.train. A day later, she found herself in a brothel, in Delhi.
:21:30. > :21:40.Where for seven months every day she was raped by countless
:21:40. > :22:13.
:22:13. > :22:18.Her mother finally tracked her down, and, with the help of police,
:22:18. > :22:21.rescued her. She got her daughter back, but not the life she has
:22:21. > :22:31.worked so hard to build. Neighbours don't talk to them any more. Their
:22:31. > :22:54.
:22:54. > :22:58.house has been stoned, and those Every year tens of thousands of
:22:58. > :23:05.girls across India are either tricked or forced into making a
:23:05. > :23:10.journey that changes their lives forever. Many, like the young woman,
:23:10. > :23:14.come through this Calcutta train station. This place is just
:23:14. > :23:18.overwhelming. It is so easy to become invisible in this crowd. I
:23:18. > :23:22.couldn't tell you whether a man I just passed is father who is
:23:22. > :23:28.travelling with his daughter, or a trafficker who is transporting his
:23:28. > :23:37.victim. What I can tell you, is that right at this moment, at this
:23:37. > :23:42.very station, there are girls who have been sold. Police sources tell
:23:42. > :23:47.us this train alone carries dozens of trafficking victims every day.
:23:47. > :23:57.Some are as young as ten. It took us weeks, but finally we managed to
:23:57. > :24:06.
:24:06. > :24:16.He tells me he traffics, an average, 200 girls a year, and makes around
:24:16. > :24:50.
:24:50. > :24:54.$1,000 on each. Most of them are 12, The trafficker also said that,
:24:54. > :24:58.while he still pays local politicians and individual
:24:58. > :25:02.policemen for protection, the central Government's recent
:25:02. > :25:06.awareness campaign has made his operation more difficult. And at
:25:06. > :25:14.the police headquarters in Calcutta, they deny charges of any
:25:14. > :25:18.involvement. This is one of the allegations which is brought
:25:18. > :25:23.against us as police. The police is doing very, very well in this field
:25:23. > :25:28.of human traffics. The allegation of corruption against police is
:25:28. > :25:34.very negligible. The fight is daily on. Activists say that at the
:25:34. > :25:40.police level things have improved. But change is slow. Every police
:25:40. > :25:44.station in India is now supposed to have anti-trafficking police
:25:44. > :25:48.officers, and at district levels they have even set up anti-
:25:48. > :25:52.trafficking unit. That looks good on paper, have a look at the
:25:52. > :25:57.reality of India's fight against one of its greatest organised crime
:25:57. > :26:03.networks. This is the centre of anti-trafficking activity for the
:26:03. > :26:10.whole of West Bengal. Two computers, a few phones, and
:26:10. > :26:17.thousands of cases. This detective and her small team are overwhelmed.
:26:17. > :26:22.We are trying to solve this problem, how do I get more man power, some
:26:22. > :26:27.digital support, some other support, Xerox machine, some telephones,
:26:27. > :26:30.laptop, we need those. Traditionally there is dark and
:26:31. > :26:35.secretive trade of humans, which has been driven by prostitution,
:26:36. > :26:41.and more recently, demand for domestic workers among India's
:26:41. > :26:45.growing middle-class. But that is changing.
:26:45. > :26:55.We travelled across the country to northern India, where there is a
:26:55. > :27:07.
:27:07. > :27:13.new and growing market for brides. This is a man's world, the men of
:27:13. > :27:17.this town are famous for being strong, fit and single. Fortunate
:27:17. > :27:25.to be born in one of India's wealthiest states, fortunate,
:27:25. > :27:30.perhaps, to be born at all. One estimate suggests that ten million
:27:30. > :27:36.girl foetuses have been aborted in India in the last two decades. The
:27:36. > :27:41.UN says it is a problem of genocide proportions. The Indian Government
:27:41. > :27:46.disputes these estimates. But the reality of life in Haryana is hard
:27:46. > :27:52.to argue with. It is such a social issue that every house is facing
:27:52. > :28:02.this problem. Every house is facing that there are young boys who are
:28:02. > :28:02.
:28:02. > :28:10.not getting girls. And when you talk to them, they are frustrated.
:28:10. > :28:16.Rishi Kant took me to see how this frustration fuels organised crime.
:28:16. > :28:23.There is a minor child, she has been traffiked, we will go and see
:28:23. > :28:27.and do the raid. If the girl is there we will do the rescue
:28:28. > :28:32.operation. So we're going to have your group, as well as the police
:28:32. > :28:42.from Bengal, and police from Haryana, working together to rescue
:28:42. > :28:47.this 14-year-old. Exactly. You know where she is? The family knows.
:28:47. > :28:57.Ruksana, the girl, is at home when we enter. But minutes later, the
:28:57. > :29:14.
:29:14. > :29:22.Before she lets her go, she takes out the earrings she had given her.
:29:22. > :29:26.As police lead her away, she follows. Rishi Kant orders her out
:29:26. > :29:36.of the police car, the trafficker and the victim have to be separated,
:29:36. > :29:38.
:29:38. > :29:41.it's the law, he says. But she is not scared of me, she is screaming.
:29:41. > :29:46.A couple of hours later, at a police station, she is still
:29:46. > :29:50.insisting she has done nothing wrong. We don't have enough girls
:29:50. > :29:59.and many people are buying girls from Bengal, she cries. She swears
:29:59. > :30:04.she had treated her well. But in the car outside, Ruksana tells the
:30:04. > :30:11.police a different story. She talks about daily humiliation, beatings,
:30:11. > :30:18.rape. Her father listens, overwhelmed. Soon he will be able
:30:19. > :30:26.to take his daughter home. This is incredible, the whole village is
:30:26. > :30:36.basically following us to Ruksana home, I'm sure this is more
:30:36. > :30:36.
:30:36. > :30:46.attention than she's used to. She is still haunted by memories of
:30:46. > :31:13.
:31:14. > :31:23.She was never even allowed outside. She doesn't want to talk about the
:31:24. > :31:36.
:31:36. > :31:41.rape. Her parents are worried about She just wants to be at home, she
:31:41. > :31:46.told me. But with so much attention, so much gossip, Rishi tells the
:31:46. > :31:53.parents it is not safe for her to stay. Everything is at stake, her
:31:53. > :31:58.life, her identity, her marriage, and her image in the society.
:31:58. > :32:06.Everything is lost. And if you don't get any support from the
:32:06. > :32:11.state, the administration, that's ten-times more problematic. This is
:32:11. > :32:15.probably where Ruksan will end up, at least for the time being. This
:32:15. > :32:19.private shelter in Calcutta is the best in the state. It is home to
:32:19. > :32:24.150 girls. Here too they tell us they have noticed that the number
:32:24. > :32:27.of girls sold into marriage is on the rise. And the real struggle,
:32:27. > :32:31.activists say, is to get politicians on side. They are not
:32:31. > :32:35.interested, you know, because you know why, do we have to still go
:32:35. > :32:38.and tell them this is happening in our country. When so many girls are
:32:38. > :32:48.dying, when so many girls are being traffiked, and you know, we are not
:32:48. > :32:58.
:32:58. > :33:04.talking about hundreds, we are But attitudes here show no sign of
:33:04. > :33:08.changing. In a village in Haryana, we visited a meeting of influential
:33:08. > :33:13.local elders, even before the notorious Delhi rape case, they
:33:13. > :33:23.came to discuss the worrying rise in rapes in Haryana. Here is how
:33:23. > :33:51.
:33:51. > :33:55.one of them explained the problem These women don't get much of a
:33:55. > :34:00.choice. This is a community support centre for victims of trafficking,
:34:00. > :34:07.some of them have settled here, some don't leave because they are
:34:07. > :34:12.too ashamed to go back. All are expected to produce sons. 25-year-
:34:12. > :34:22.old Rupa was traffiked from Bihar, she says she was forced to have two
:34:22. > :34:36.
:34:36. > :34:45.abortions until she finally gave Fuelled by poverty, corruption, and
:34:45. > :34:50.attitudes towards women, in India, this cycle of abuse carries on.
:34:50. > :34:55.Earlier today in Mumbai, we filmed a veteran Indian act stress, who is
:34:55. > :35:00.also a prominent -- actress, who is also a prominent women's activist
:35:00. > :35:02.and former member of the Upper House in parliament. I began by ask
:35:03. > :35:11.She Lay Down Deep Beneath the Sea believed that India did not love
:35:11. > :35:15.its -- by asking if she believed that India did not love its girl
:35:15. > :35:19.children? It comes from the complication of being a complex
:35:19. > :35:22.society. So it is with the position of women. On the one hand we have
:35:22. > :35:25.had a woman President and Prime Minister, several women are in top
:35:25. > :35:31.positions in politics and business and the arts and all of that, but
:35:31. > :35:35.on the other hand, female foeticide is also being practised. It is,
:35:35. > :35:41.essentially, a country living in contradictions and trying to come
:35:41. > :35:45.to terms with it. Having said that, without any doubt. India is a
:35:45. > :35:51.patriarchal society, and we have internalised a patriarchal mind set
:35:51. > :35:55.in which the girl child is not given the value that she deserves.
:35:55. > :35:59.The victim of December's gang rape was a middle-class student living
:35:59. > :36:08.in the capital city, where the majority of the country live
:36:08. > :36:14.poverty striken and voiceless. I asked her if she believed India's
:36:14. > :36:19.lingering caste system was an issue in the rape? There are problems in
:36:19. > :36:23.the rural areas where certain women where nobody pays the attention to
:36:23. > :36:27.them. This was a case that was given tremendous visibility, and
:36:27. > :36:35.people came to know the horror that is associated with rape. Somewhere
:36:35. > :36:39.the deadening of our senses has really been brought into sharp
:36:39. > :36:42.position. I think it is about time something like this happened, and
:36:42. > :36:47.the outrage of complete demand for justice became central to our
:36:47. > :36:51.system. The week since the rape has seen an extraordinary outpouring of
:36:51. > :36:56.public anger in India, much of it directed at the police. The fact is,
:36:56. > :37:00.that the police have internalised the same patriarchal mind set, and
:37:00. > :37:05.what happens is most often girls do not even go to register cases of
:37:05. > :37:09.rape, or trafficking, for fear that they are really going to be treated
:37:09. > :37:15.to a verbal abuse amounting to a second rape. Because of the
:37:15. > :37:19.insensitivity of the police, and the tendency to some how blame the
:37:19. > :37:22.victim for having invited the rape. And that is a shocking state of
:37:23. > :37:27.affairs, because it is not enough to say they have internalised their
:37:27. > :37:31.mind set, because when they occupy a chair, and they wear a uniform,
:37:31. > :37:36.then there has to be a process of training in which they are
:37:36. > :37:40.disabused from the horrible values they have. She has made her name as
:37:40. > :37:43.a star of more than 100 Bollywood firms over four decades, did she
:37:43. > :37:48.believe the industry was responsible for suggesting that in
:37:48. > :37:53.terms of women and sex, "no" didn't necessarily always mean no. We have
:37:53. > :37:59.to tread careful grounds here. Because to blame Bollywood for
:37:59. > :38:05.everything that is wrong in society would be factitious, and not true.
:38:05. > :38:09.I think there is definitely a churning within sections of the
:38:09. > :38:13.film industry, of the Hindi film industry, where they are indulging
:38:13. > :38:17.in some amount of self-reflection and analysis. But they are his tent
:38:17. > :38:22.to verbalise what they feel, for fear of being appropriated by the
:38:22. > :38:28.moral brigade. We cannot have a situation where this gives an
:38:28. > :38:32.opportunity to the moral brigade to stand waving their flags and saying
:38:32. > :38:38.women are responsible because they are wearing short skirts or they
:38:38. > :38:42.are being emancipated or what have you.
:38:42. > :38:46.I think, for the film industry, we have to understand that the
:38:46. > :38:56.business of cinema is about images. And when you show fragmented images
:38:56. > :38:57.
:38:58. > :39:02.of a woman's body, she really loses all autonomy it commodifies herself.
:39:02. > :39:07.However, I do want to insist that celebration of senuality is welcome,
:39:07. > :39:17.and something that is healthy. But there is a thin line between
:39:17. > :39:20.
:39:20. > :39:27.celebration of sexuality and a surrender to the male gaze. We have
:39:27. > :39:32.come a long way from films made in the 1960s where, "I will remain
:39:32. > :39:36.silent", was considered a virtue. We have seen more visibly working
:39:36. > :39:40.women in India. There is still a lot left to be desired, it is for
:39:40. > :39:47.us to stand up, and also, for female actors to say they demand
:39:47. > :39:51.more. Could the student's gang rape and
:39:51. > :39:55.murder prove a turning point in the way India's women are treated.
:39:55. > :40:01.Could it prove a watershed for women's rights? I think the outrage
:40:01. > :40:05.has been so universal, and so persistent, that I will be very
:40:05. > :40:09.surprised if there is no change at all. But ultimately what we are
:40:10. > :40:19.dealing with is a mind set change, a societal, mind set change, which,
:40:20. > :40:20.
:40:20. > :40:24.as you know, takes a very, very long time. There is a bit of skill
:40:24. > :40:31.in handling a radio chat show, the witty one-liner, a bit of flirting
:40:31. > :40:35.and being kind to granny, Terry Wogan, and Jonathan Ross spring to
:40:35. > :40:39.mind. But Nick Clegg? For coalition spin doctors, for some reason, they
:40:39. > :40:45.have decided he could make it big on the airwaves, he has a lot to
:40:45. > :40:50.live up to. Time to call in Steve Smith?
:40:50. > :40:56.Hello Newsnight? What you mean now, on now?
:40:56. > :41:00.You may have heard about the BBC's state-of-the-art new HQ in central
:41:00. > :41:04.London. This is where we maintain our all-important links with our
:41:05. > :41:12.audience. Would you mind one second?
:41:12. > :41:19.Hello Newsnight? Yes. No. The vital connection, talking in
:41:19. > :41:24.real time, to real people, politicians want it too. Nick Clegg
:41:24. > :41:29.has become the first cabinet minister to launch what is promised
:41:29. > :41:33.to be a regular weekly phone-in, on London's LBC Radio. What support is
:41:33. > :41:39.the Government going to be able to offer families and couples who are
:41:39. > :41:43.being forced to leave their jobs within the army or other forces,
:41:43. > :41:48.jobs within the ministry. Stay on the line, this is to do with the
:41:48. > :41:52.military review, and many jobs have been shed, some on the frontline.
:41:52. > :41:56.As you know better than I do, we have been upfront with you and your
:41:56. > :41:59.husband, and said because defence expenditure was so mishandled in
:41:59. > :42:02.the past, we have to bring things down to a level which we can
:42:03. > :42:07.properly support. There isn't that uncertainty. I honestly don't think
:42:07. > :42:10.it does any harm to the reputation of politics in general for a
:42:10. > :42:15.politician to make himself accessible. It is a big commitment
:42:16. > :42:19.for him. Yes, I think in a newsy week, in a week with a lot of
:42:19. > :42:29.political news, I might listen, and I might even ring up. Let us know
:42:29. > :42:31.
:42:31. > :42:35.when you do. This is the Newsnight Awards Line, if you think we
:42:35. > :42:39.deserve...hello...$$NEWLINE # Hey how you doing
:42:39. > :42:42.Politicians and their handlers, believe there is nothing like
:42:42. > :42:47.direct contact with the great British public. Good morning Mr
:42:47. > :42:51.Major. Good morning. I would like to know why I should vote Tory?
:42:51. > :42:55.They are talking straight to voters, and they are being seen, or at
:42:55. > :43:01.least heard, to do so, but it doesn't always end well. Someone
:43:01. > :43:07.has just handed me the tape, let's play it and see if we can hear it.
:43:07. > :43:13.You should never have put me with that woman, whose idea that was? It
:43:13. > :43:17.is just ridiculous. That Gordon Brown bigot-gate moment, all
:43:17. > :43:23.triggered by contact with maybe of the public. It was played back on
:43:23. > :43:26.my show, and he didn't know it was filmed. It was a catastrophic for
:43:26. > :43:30.Brown and it happened in the middle of an election. It takes you back
:43:30. > :43:35.to all the other election moments, how often it is the member of the
:43:35. > :43:40.public who changes the weather. The all-time classic was a woman called
:43:40. > :43:44.Diana Gould. Why, when the Argentinian battleship, was outside
:43:44. > :43:50.the exclusion zone, and actually sailing away from the Falklands,
:43:50. > :43:55.why did you give the orders to sink it? It was not sailing away the
:43:55. > :44:01.Falklands, it was an area which was a danger to our ships. And it
:44:01. > :44:07.stopped the then Prime Minister in her tracks.
:44:07. > :44:15.One second, hang on? Hello. Hello Jeremy, I wondered why we kept this
:44:15. > :44:22.phone. Direct dialogue with the people is a hallmark of strong men
:44:22. > :44:32.among world leaders. Including Chavez of Venezuela. And Russia's
:44:32. > :44:32.
:44:32. > :44:37.Vladimir Putin. I'm wondering are you a man of the people, and have
:44:37. > :44:42.you worn a onesie? From your constituency, have you ever worn a
:44:42. > :44:46.onesie? I was actually given a big, green onesie in Sheffield, which I
:44:46. > :44:50.have kept in its packaging, I haven't worn it yet. Actually,
:44:50. > :44:54.Newsnight imagined that look last month. This programme's meaningless
:44:54. > :44:59.if it doesn't set the agenda. What's he got to lose. Everybody
:44:59. > :45:05.hates him, everybody thinks he's like the daft lad. This morning he
:45:05. > :45:10.showed, you know, quite a few sparks of humour. How many stars
:45:10. > :45:20.would you give it? As a show four stars. That is pretty good? Yes, I
:45:20. > :45:20.
:45:20. > :45:30.would. Hi Kirsty. It's going well. What's that? Get off?
:45:30. > :45:54.
:45:54. > :45:59.Nuisance caller. Figures out today show there are
:45:59. > :46:02.still 13,000 black and white television licenses in the UK, so
:46:02. > :46:12.tonight's farewell is tailored especially for viewers watching
:46:12. > :46:39.
:46:39. > :46:43.tonight in glorious monochrome, Colder weather on the way for the
:46:43. > :46:47.UK in the next few days. Friday quite a chilly affair, and a rather
:46:47. > :46:50.grey one for many of us as well. The best of any sunshine likely
:46:50. > :46:56.across Wales in the south west during the early part of the day.
:46:56. > :47:00.Elsewhere it is a mixture of low clouds and outbreaks of rain and
:47:00. > :47:03.stubborn patches of mist and fog. And wintery across the hills of the
:47:03. > :47:06.north-east of England, maybe the bit of sleet mixed in with the
:47:06. > :47:09.showers across East Anglia. For the south west and Wales, after the
:47:09. > :47:13.sunshine first thing, more cloud piling in come the afternoon, that
:47:13. > :47:15.will have a tendency to bring increasingly heavy showers as the
:47:16. > :47:22.afternoon progresses. Perhaps there is brightness to be found across
:47:22. > :47:24.the likes of Devon and Dorset, and up into the Welsh marshes and the
:47:24. > :47:29.afternoon. For Northern Ireland a dreary day, a foggy start making
:47:29. > :47:32.way to a foggy afternoon, with outbreaks of rain. In the far north
:47:32. > :47:37.of Scotland it may brighten during the afternoon. Elsewhere cloud
:47:37. > :47:41.around or misty and murky weather. For the weekend, the prospects turn
:47:41. > :47:44.colder still, the threat of wintery showers across eastern Scotland and
:47:44. > :47:48.the north-east of England. Further south, an area of low pressure
:47:48. > :47:51.pushing in, making for a bit of a forecasting headache for us, it
:47:51. > :47:55.looks like it will bring heavy rain to the southern most counties of