:00:14. > :00:16.Tonight, renegotiation of the European Union, repatriation of
:00:16. > :00:21.powers, Brussels bureaucrats. Whatever you may think of the EU,
:00:21. > :00:26.what do they think of us? Newsnight has been to hear the German debate.
:00:26. > :00:32.They may want to be our closest partner, but British talk of
:00:32. > :00:36.renegotiation wins no votes there. The British way seems to be, we
:00:36. > :00:39.want our own relationship with the European Union, and the German
:00:39. > :00:44.attitude is, now we have to go in more. Also tonight, how long will
:00:44. > :00:47.it be until we all have to work until 70 to collect a state pension.
:00:47. > :00:54.Today's sweeping pension reforms might require less optimistic
:00:54. > :00:57.future planning for all of us. 68 years old I'm in Jamaica with my
:00:57. > :01:01.family on holiday, I'm relaxes, that is my retirement place to go.
:01:01. > :01:06.I don't think I should be work. ask the writer of Quartet what the
:01:06. > :01:09.future holds for the old. It sounds like a prison. The service lift is
:01:09. > :01:13.currently being repaired, but we have the chairlift which will be
:01:13. > :01:17.much easier from you. What do I do when I get to the top, ski down!
:01:17. > :01:22.The writer of Quartet is here, along with the Pensions Minister,
:01:22. > :01:26.along with others to talk about prejudices against those no longer
:01:26. > :01:30.young. Timbuktu, the great city of Mali was once considered so remote,
:01:30. > :01:40.most of us couldn't find it on a map. Why are we suddenly involved
:01:40. > :01:41.
:01:42. > :01:48.in French military operations on what was once the middle of nowhere.
:01:48. > :01:55.Good evening. For more than 200 years, from the music of handle and
:01:55. > :01:58.the Hannoverian Princes and prugs minces helping, and even Prince
:01:58. > :02:02.Albert, even how we celebrate Christmas, the links between
:02:02. > :02:08.Britain and Germany have always been strong. The history of the
:02:08. > :02:13.last century have shown how strong relationships can haywire. Ahead of
:02:13. > :02:16.David Cameron's big speech on Europe, if he does want to
:02:16. > :02:23.renegotiate membership and repatriate powers, the one country
:02:23. > :02:27.to get on side, Germany. Angela Merkel and David Cameron have
:02:27. > :02:31.similar views on Europe, and she wants Britain to take more of a
:02:31. > :02:39.role. Where does it leave us on a referendum that could leave us
:02:39. > :02:43.outside the EU. We have seen to Germany to find out.
:02:43. > :02:53.Hannover once sent its rule Tory run Britain. These days, the
:02:53. > :02:54.
:02:55. > :02:59.electors of Hanover are concentrating on polls, Angela
:03:00. > :03:03.Merkel's party have a battle on their hands. And at this time they
:03:03. > :03:11.would like the old alliance with Britain to be a source of strength
:03:11. > :03:16.rather than trouble. There is a British way that seems to be we are
:03:17. > :03:20.going our own way and we want to have our own relationship with the
:03:20. > :03:25.European Union. The German attitude is we have to go in more, engage
:03:25. > :03:30.more and rebuild this European Union, but inside. And we are a
:03:30. > :03:39.little bit sad that there are so many voices within the UK who want
:03:39. > :03:46.to go out of the union, I guess this is a problem. The CDU's man in
:03:46. > :03:49.this state, David McAllister, is proud of his Scottish father, and
:03:49. > :03:52.dual Germany-British nationalty. Like -- dual German-British
:03:52. > :04:01.nationality, like many of the supporters watching the debate, he
:04:01. > :04:04.wants a strong EU, with Britain at its heart, rather than its margins.
:04:04. > :04:09.Talk in Britain of renegotiating the relationship with the EU is
:04:09. > :04:12.causing real concern in the ruling party here. Leading figures are
:04:12. > :04:17.beginning to speak publicly about that. They are worried about more
:04:17. > :04:22.political turbulence in the EU, when the focus should be on
:04:22. > :04:30.economic regeneration, and about the UK and Germany becoming, in
:04:30. > :04:33.some way, estranged. On the outskirts of Hanover, this company
:04:33. > :04:38.produces high-quality audio equipment. Family-owned, employing
:04:38. > :04:43.more than 2,000 people, it's bucking the recession with rising
:04:43. > :04:50.sales. London, and its music industry are key to the business.
:04:50. > :04:56.Any threat to that would worry them. The UK, particularly London, are
:04:56. > :05:01.considered the centre of the music industry, rock 'n' roll, the
:05:01. > :05:06.creative industry, the lifestyle that is born and traded in that
:05:06. > :05:12.vivid city, it goes out to the world. If they decide to say, OK,
:05:12. > :05:16.yeah, we're no longer part of this, we are more isolated, I think that
:05:16. > :05:19.reputation could go down. someone says, well, actually, we
:05:20. > :05:24.know that, we want to avoid that, and we would have free trade with
:05:24. > :05:30.Germany or the EU as a whole, because that would still be in our
:05:30. > :05:35.mutual interest would, that satisfy your concerns? Of course, anything
:05:35. > :05:40.that takes barriers down is fine for us, but it is also necessary.
:05:40. > :05:45.But I know how complicated it is to negotiate all these different
:05:45. > :05:49.specialties we have, but this is very complicated to come to these
:05:49. > :05:52.agreements. It is very cumbersome, and it takes a long time,
:05:52. > :05:56.particularly in these times, where business is not really, really
:05:56. > :06:01.stable, we all need to be very cautious about putting up
:06:01. > :06:05.additional obstacles. It is pretty clear that in both politic ka --
:06:05. > :06:08.political and business circles there is unease about what Britain
:06:08. > :06:13.might be planning in terms of its EU membership. What about public
:06:13. > :06:19.opinion, we want to test it in probably the most anglophile of
:06:19. > :06:23.German cities, Hamburg. Hamburg University has its radical posters,
:06:24. > :06:30.arthouse cinema and free-thinking students. Do they feel Britain
:06:30. > :06:34.should be able to define a special status within the EU? Britain sort
:06:34. > :06:37.of, in my experience they tend to think, some still do, the only
:06:37. > :06:40.union we were ever interested in of the empire and then the
:06:40. > :06:46.Commonwealth, and the European Union, it's a continental thing,
:06:46. > :06:50.and we don't really want to engage in that. From a continental
:06:50. > :06:53.perspective, Britain tends to have this notion of, well, we want to
:06:53. > :06:57.have the good parts, but we don't really want the bad parts. I like
:06:57. > :07:02.Britain very much, and I would be quite sad if Britain would leave
:07:02. > :07:05.the EU, because we think it is a great country. I think it would be
:07:05. > :07:15.great to work together with Britain. But I think it is sad that they
:07:15. > :07:18.
:07:18. > :07:21.have always been so careful, and never really taken a step into it.
:07:21. > :07:26.This is an unusually pro-British city, in part because of the
:07:26. > :07:35.historical trading ties, and in part because of an experience that
:07:35. > :07:40.might be called a velvet occupation. German's two main news magazines,
:07:40. > :07:47.located here in 1945, because the British were the first to give them
:07:47. > :07:51.licenses to print. Today, though, one former London correspondent
:07:51. > :07:56.cautions the Conservatives against thinking Germans are in the mood to
:07:56. > :08:00.support the UK while it negotiates its EU opt-outs. People think that
:08:00. > :08:04.Britain has to decide if it wants to be in or out. And there is a
:08:04. > :08:07.feeling that it starts to get on people's nerves a bit, you know.
:08:07. > :08:12.There are already people who say well if they don't want to be here,
:08:12. > :08:18.then they can get out, you know. Let us deal with the crisis then,
:08:18. > :08:24.don't disturb the important work of getting it all sorted out. Why
:08:24. > :08:29.don't you get out if you don't want to be with us? I think that's a
:08:29. > :08:39.dangerous development, because Germany always has needed Britain,
:08:39. > :08:40.
:08:40. > :08:46.in negotiations in the EU, because it was a pragmatic partner. After
:08:46. > :08:51.the TV debate in Hanover, David McAllister got a raptous welcome
:08:51. > :08:55.from his party supporters. If anyone personifies the close
:08:55. > :09:00.British and German relationship, surely it is him. But if the
:09:00. > :09:03.Conservatives think that a Commons centre right platform, and family
:09:03. > :09:12.ties might make Mr McAllister more open to a looser British
:09:12. > :09:14.involvement in Europe, they have got another thing coming.
:09:14. > :09:18.Germans believe in a strong European Union, we want Britain to
:09:18. > :09:22.stay in the European Union, it wouldn't be the same without the
:09:22. > :09:27.British. Member-states shouldn't start to opt-out on certain
:09:27. > :09:31.political issues. We can only solve our problems together in Europe, in
:09:31. > :09:40.a globalised world, that is why we need a strong Britain and a strong
:09:40. > :09:46.European Union. McAllister supporters are hoping of winning
:09:46. > :09:50.this state, and CDU ones of hoping on to power nationally, when
:09:50. > :09:54.federal elections take place in eight or nine months. Far from
:09:55. > :09:59.being Germany's ally in the next few months, many Christian
:09:59. > :10:05.Democrats fear that a Cameron push for a la carte membership could put
:10:05. > :10:10.the countries on a membership collision course. If we agree upon
:10:10. > :10:16.a special relationship of the UK to the rest of Europe, we will have a
:10:16. > :10:20.blueprint. The next step, for example, Poland or other countries
:10:20. > :10:27.will also demand the same. This will be the first type of a melting
:10:27. > :10:30.down of the whole union. So far Germany's leaders have been muted
:10:30. > :10:35.in their criticism of British Conservatives, and many hark back
:10:35. > :10:40.to happier times for the two countries. But the stage seems set
:10:40. > :10:47.now for increasing discord between Britain and the EU's dominant
:10:47. > :10:51.member. I'm joined now by sir Malcolm
:10:51. > :10:59.Rifkind, who was Foreign Secretary, and spent a lot of time in European
:10:59. > :11:03.negotiations, and the shadow Foreign Minister, and as Tony
:11:03. > :11:07.Blair's Europe Minister is no stranger to these discussions. What
:11:07. > :11:10.is feasible in negotiations with people who think the idea is crazy?
:11:10. > :11:12.First of all, we have to wait until the Prime Minister has made his
:11:12. > :11:16.speech, I don't know what is in that speech any more than anyone
:11:16. > :11:19.else does, that is obviously a caveat I have to make. You know, I
:11:19. > :11:22.don't think anyone has any illusions that if you try to
:11:22. > :11:24.negotiate for major changes in the European Union, it is extremely
:11:24. > :11:27.difficult. I was Margaret Thatcher's Europe Minister when she
:11:27. > :11:31.started negotiating for a British rebate, surprise, surprise, there
:11:31. > :11:36.was not a single all lie, not a single country that supported it.
:11:36. > :11:39.These things do take time. But they are possible? They are possible.
:11:39. > :11:42.One of the mistakes made by some of the commentators in the film from
:11:42. > :11:45.Germany, they implied at the moment that everybody in the European
:11:45. > :11:49.Union has the same rights and responsibilities, not true. We have
:11:49. > :11:53.major opt-outs already, not just for Britain. We negotiated them as
:11:53. > :11:57.we went. You are talking about reliving the past, and saying there
:11:57. > :12:01.is some things we did in the past which we agreed to, and we are not
:12:01. > :12:04.going to do it now, like immigration policy. Could you
:12:04. > :12:08.actually change the immigration policy, or free movement of labour,
:12:08. > :12:13.that some of your supporters like, it seems unlikely? Some things
:12:13. > :12:17.can't be negotiated away, because you remove the core of European
:12:17. > :12:20.competence, and you stop being a member. I would agree with you that
:12:20. > :12:26.is not something that could be negotiated in a convincing way.
:12:26. > :12:30.That is not the only point at issue. It is the point that many UKIP
:12:30. > :12:34.voters, and many Tories leaning to UKIP do want? This is not just a
:12:34. > :12:38.question about UKIP, the vast majority of the British public are
:12:38. > :12:41.unhappy about the present areas of European confidence in the UK,
:12:41. > :12:44.things like the Working Time Directive, there is a range of
:12:44. > :12:49.issues about fisheries policy, other matters on justice and home
:12:49. > :12:52.affairs, these are negotiable. But I add a caveat, I agree with you,
:12:52. > :12:56.the Prime Minister has to be careful not to create expectations
:12:56. > :12:59.that cannot be delivered. I think also, members of his party, and
:12:59. > :13:03.those who want change, must be careful about rhetoric, the
:13:03. > :13:06.European Union is a club of 27 countries, no-one country can
:13:06. > :13:11.dictate to others, it will require negotiation and compromise.
:13:11. > :13:14.terms of that, now is a good time isn't it? It is not just that
:13:14. > :13:17.British people looking at the problems of the eurozone, and how
:13:17. > :13:21.difficult it is to get any agreement on that, but there is an
:13:21. > :13:24.opportunity. Europe is re-thinking itself, it will probably be more
:13:24. > :13:27.closely knit together, we have an opportunity to change our entire
:13:27. > :13:31.relationship? Of course change is coming to Europe, it is very far
:13:31. > :13:35.from clear that the Germans will push for treaty change. It may be
:13:35. > :13:38.non-treaty changes that are used to strengthen the eurozone. But,
:13:38. > :13:42.listen, the fundamental problem is this, the gap between what
:13:42. > :13:45.Conservative backbenchers are now demanding, and what the rest of
:13:45. > :13:48.Europe can tolerate remains achingly wide. The reason the
:13:48. > :13:52.speech is being delivered, on Friday now, not on Tuesday, it is
:13:52. > :13:55.not for reasons of policy, it is for reasons of politics. The reason
:13:55. > :13:59.David Cameron didn't deliver that speech during the whole of 2012 was
:13:59. > :14:02.that he was literally rendered speechless by, on one hand, what he
:14:02. > :14:06.knew he could deliver in Europe, and on the other hand, what he knew
:14:06. > :14:12.that his own backbenchers were deened maing of him. That is why we
:14:12. > :14:17.have seen very senior business leaders like sir Richard Branson
:14:17. > :14:21.and Martin Sorrell this week is that in order to satisfy and unify
:14:21. > :14:24.his party, David Cameron has to set the bar so high, there is no way
:14:24. > :14:27.the Germans could agreed. Maybe that is true, but as a matter of
:14:27. > :14:31.principle, you presumably accept that one of the great flaws of the
:14:31. > :14:34.European project is many voters in lot of countries, not just our's,
:14:34. > :14:38.are not brought alone. The democratic deficit it is called,
:14:38. > :14:41.they don't feel part of it. One way of solving that is to say this is
:14:41. > :14:45.the deal, this is what I can deliver and put it to the British
:14:45. > :14:48.voters, you are against that? Cameron can't tell you the deal,
:14:48. > :14:50.what he's negotiating for or the circumstances in which he would be
:14:50. > :14:53.inviting people to be part of something or not part of something.
:14:53. > :14:57.The real challenge is certainly to make change happen in Europe. We,
:14:57. > :15:00.as the Labour Party, want to see change. But the way to achieve the
:15:00. > :15:03.change, we would argue, is reform within Europe, not the threat of
:15:03. > :15:06.exit from Europe. Because if you are perceived to be in the
:15:06. > :15:08.departure lounge, then whether it is the German Government, the
:15:08. > :15:11.polish Government, certainly the French Government, they will be
:15:11. > :15:15.less willing to give you the changes you want, and some of the
:15:15. > :15:19.changes that seem to be under contemplation, will be regarded as
:15:19. > :15:24.providing a fundamental threat to the single market. Can I in the
:15:24. > :15:28.spirit of constructive criticism disagree with Douglas! This is not
:15:28. > :15:32.all happening in a vacuum, because of the eurozone crisis, because of
:15:32. > :15:35.the proposals of the euromembers for a banking union that could be a
:15:35. > :15:39.fiscal union, we are in a period of fundamental change. It is not just
:15:39. > :15:43.the UK, only 17 of the 27 countries are in the eurozone, there is a
:15:43. > :15:46.fundamental negotiation that is unavoidable as to how the other ten
:15:46. > :15:52.countries, ten countries, not one, are going to be able to have their
:15:52. > :15:54.rights in the single market and elsewhere fully protected in the
:15:54. > :15:58.future. That is about the future, with respect, some of the things
:15:58. > :16:01.that some of those within your party want are to go back over the
:16:01. > :16:04.past, you could be even more enthralled to those people if you
:16:04. > :16:07.win the next election. Because they would be the backbenchers that
:16:07. > :16:11.David Cameron would rely on, just as it happened with John Major?
:16:11. > :16:15.There is nothing in the Ten Commandments, or in any other
:16:15. > :16:18.statute of law that says you cannot repatriate certain powers. Even the
:16:18. > :16:22.European Union, although many people will hate it, can make
:16:22. > :16:26.concessions, if the case it put convincingly. I accept one
:16:26. > :16:29.fundamental point, if there is going to be a realistic prospect of
:16:29. > :16:34.successful negotiation, the best chance will be if what Britain
:16:34. > :16:38.seeks, if it was conceded, will not harm other states. Now, for example,
:16:38. > :16:44.there are many areas of policy where you could put that equation,
:16:44. > :16:49.if it is not met, if you are asking to make sacrifices it is less
:16:49. > :16:54.likely to be achieved. What if David Cameron delivers 40% or 60%
:16:54. > :16:56.of what he wants to secure. If he sets the bar as there will be
:16:56. > :16:59.fundamental and catagoric change in Europe, and if we don't secure the
:16:59. > :17:02.Europe of my dreams, we will leave the European Union, don't we
:17:02. > :17:06.default into a position where your own backbenchers, never mind the
:17:06. > :17:10.country, then says we are left with no choice other than exit? I go
:17:10. > :17:13.part of the way with you, because certainly I accept that any
:17:13. > :17:17.successful negotiation, not just in the European Union, a successful
:17:17. > :17:21.negotiation never means you get 100%, even a successful negotiation
:17:21. > :17:24.means you get 80-90% of what you would like, and you make some
:17:24. > :17:28.concessions in the areas not so important to you. The Prime
:17:28. > :17:34.Minister should make it clear that compromise has to be part of the
:17:34. > :17:36.negotiation. Do you then recommend exit for the European Union or stay
:17:37. > :17:40.in. What would Labour get starting from a position that they wouldn't
:17:40. > :17:44.put it to the British people, that you are not that irritated or
:17:44. > :17:47.bothered, what would your negotiating position be, much
:17:47. > :17:51.weaker? The way to advance Britain's interests, we would argue,
:17:51. > :17:55.is not narrow repatriation, but broad reform, actually for the
:17:55. > :17:58.reasons just described by Malcolm. Let me give you some examples, we
:17:59. > :18:02.would work for fundamental reform and restraint in the European
:18:02. > :18:06.budget, that is financial reform to start with. Secondly, how is the
:18:06. > :18:10.budget spent, we will continue to argue for fundamental changes in
:18:10. > :18:15.the Common Agricultural Policy. have been arguing that for years?
:18:15. > :18:19.There are issues around democratic legitimacy, I'm speaking a speech
:18:19. > :18:22.this week and I will talk about the steps needed to be taken by the
:18:22. > :18:25.European Parliament and other institution, whether it is
:18:25. > :18:29.financial or fundamental economic change we accept there needs to be
:18:29. > :18:31.change, we think there is a far better and safer way to secure
:18:31. > :18:35.those interests for Britain than standing at the door and putting
:18:35. > :18:40.the gun to the heads. That would be a catastrophe for other countries
:18:40. > :18:43.if we had to get out? It would be a foolish route to take. If we are
:18:43. > :18:47.talking about the real possibilities of negotiation, we
:18:47. > :18:51.already have a Europe a la carte, the doctrinal people in Brussels
:18:51. > :18:53.don't like to admit that. They think that you have a single
:18:53. > :18:58.European Union with everyone having the same responsibilities. You have,
:18:58. > :19:02.as I mentioned earlier, ten or 11 countries that are not in the
:19:02. > :19:06.eurozone. Shen geing, the Irish and the UK are not involved, on defence
:19:06. > :19:10.policy the neutral countries, Sweden and Ireland and so forth do
:19:11. > :19:13.not fully participate. So what we are saying, is, yes, in addition to
:19:13. > :19:16.that, there are certain specific British interests, no doubt there
:19:16. > :19:22.will be other countries that will have certain and specific interests,
:19:22. > :19:25.but as long as the core xetten sis of the core European Union are not
:19:25. > :19:28.disturbed, of which the single market is the most important. Then
:19:28. > :19:32.you can create a diverse Europe which the peoples of Europe as a
:19:32. > :19:37.whole, not just the British people, will be comfortable with.
:19:37. > :19:43.Two of the most critically regarded films on release at the moment are
:19:43. > :19:47.about old age, Quartet is about some of the surprises growing old
:19:47. > :19:51.will be. As movie makers wake up to the idea that an older audience has
:19:51. > :19:54.money to spend, the Government has woken up to the fact that not many
:19:54. > :19:58.of us are thinking about where the money will come from. Today's
:19:58. > :20:01.massive pension reform is a start, the Institute for Fiscal Studies
:20:01. > :20:05.suggests in the long-term it will mean a pension cut in pension
:20:05. > :20:09.entitlements for most of us. Is all this another sign that before long
:20:09. > :20:14.the retirement age will hit 70 or more, a forecast for the retirement
:20:14. > :20:19.age of 68 was included in today's White Paper. Paul Mason has been
:20:19. > :20:25.contemplating our greying future. Work, get used to it, for a long
:20:25. > :20:29.time. And saving. Today's radical pensions rewrite brings clarity to
:20:29. > :20:34.a system that has become impossible to predict. But by the mid-century,
:20:34. > :20:38.for many people, it will be the wrong kind of clarity. At present,
:20:38. > :20:45.there are three teirs of taxpayer funding to the pensions system.
:20:45. > :20:48.There is the basic state pension, topped up to �142.70 a week, with
:20:48. > :20:51.means-tested credits. There is the second state pension, worth, on
:20:51. > :20:55.average, about �18 a week at present, and based on earnings.
:20:55. > :20:59.People in company pensions get tax relieve, and by contracting out of
:20:59. > :21:03.the second state pension, boost their savings by paying less
:21:03. > :21:08.national insurance. Today's White Paper consolidates everything into
:21:08. > :21:11.a basic pension of �144 a week in today's money. The second state
:21:11. > :21:14.pension is gradually abolished. More people will qualify for the
:21:14. > :21:19.full amount, more women, more of the self-employed, but they will
:21:19. > :21:24.have to work for 35 years until they claim it, and for many people
:21:24. > :21:27.that will mean work until you are 68. I think this is a really good
:21:27. > :21:31.news day for pensions, it means that for the first time people will
:21:31. > :21:35.know what they are going to get from the state, it means that
:21:35. > :21:38.finally it pays to save, and people will know that what they are going
:21:38. > :21:42.to get from the state will be �144 a week, and what they save on top
:21:42. > :21:47.of that will be their's and won't be means-tested away. But vox pop
:21:47. > :21:51.Britain is not tuned into the niceties. I don't know that I will
:21:51. > :21:55.actually be, you can't do my work when you are 68. You are either
:21:55. > :21:59.going to have to retire a pauper or work until you die, it is that
:21:59. > :22:03.simple. You know, how old do they want us to be, it is all about
:22:03. > :22:08.saving money and they want you to work more instead of retiring and
:22:08. > :22:11.having a peaceful time and enjoying the rest of your life. At 68 years
:22:11. > :22:16.old I see myself relaxing in the Caribbean, enjoying the life that I
:22:16. > :22:20.have had. I think it is a bit unfair for them to make people of
:22:20. > :22:23.that age work, I couldn't think of my grandparents working now, it is
:22:23. > :22:28.so unfair. The facts driving the change are stark, we are living
:22:28. > :22:31.long he, by 2050, a man retiring will expect to live for 25 years on
:22:31. > :22:35.his pension. But it is also the decline of company pensions that is
:22:35. > :22:39.forcing the Government to draw sharper lines between what the
:22:39. > :22:43.state provides and what you provide yourself. 30 years ago half of
:22:43. > :22:46.people in work, at least half of people in work, were members of an
:22:46. > :22:50.employer pension scheme that was going to give them a pension
:22:50. > :22:53.related to their salary, now very few people in the private sector in
:22:53. > :22:56.that position, quite a lot in the public sector in that position, the
:22:57. > :23:00.state was topping up everyone else to match those occupational schemes,
:23:00. > :23:04.now those occupational schemes largely don't exist, the state is
:23:04. > :23:08.no longer topping anyone else to match it, it is leaving everyone
:23:08. > :23:12.pretty much to do their own work to get their own pension. While, in
:23:13. > :23:15.the short-term, the bill brings a sharp jolt of fairness in terms of
:23:16. > :23:22.women and self-employed, in the long-term, the percentage of those
:23:22. > :23:25.who lose out, coloured blue in this graph, rapidly increases, until by
:23:25. > :23:30.2060, the majority are worse off than they could have been under
:23:30. > :23:40.today's system. You have to work longer, pay more, and get less. It
:23:40. > :23:46.is a con-trick. Why? Because it is 35 years, you have got to pay more,
:23:46. > :23:49.and you have to work until you are 68 to get it. By the time this
:23:49. > :23:54.generation are holding their retirement raef, the burden of
:23:54. > :23:56.paying for -- raves, the burden of paying for old age will have
:23:56. > :23:59.shifted decisively towards individual saving. Bit by bit,
:23:59. > :24:03.successive Governments are putting into place a new design for ageing
:24:03. > :24:11.in the 21st sent treatment it is based on saving more, and working
:24:11. > :24:15.longer. After today, a retirement age of 68 looks likely, the problem
:24:15. > :24:20.is, the jobs and wages of the rising generation might not support
:24:20. > :24:25.it. It has always been the case that people at work are paying for
:24:25. > :24:29.a previous generation. Now, today we have got a situation where
:24:29. > :24:33.people are getting very low wages, they are on short-term contracts,
:24:33. > :24:40.they are on part-time work. They themselves can't manage, and they
:24:40. > :24:44.don't pay it in enough, in order to pay for this, the benefits and the
:24:44. > :24:52.pensions. I don't know how they are going to pay enough for themselves
:24:52. > :24:57.to get this over the 35-year period. Right now, there are for every two
:24:57. > :25:02.pensioners, seven people of working age. By 2050 that number falls to
:25:02. > :25:05.five. It's the iPod generation that will then have to live on the
:25:05. > :25:13.system designed today. With the review of the retirement age every
:25:13. > :25:18.five years, the age of 68 might not be the end of it. The Pensions
:25:19. > :25:22.Minister, Steve Webb is here, along with the economist, Mariana
:25:22. > :25:25.Mazzucato, Michelle Mitchell of Age UK, and the Oscar-winning
:25:25. > :25:30.playwright, Ronald Harwood, who has written, among many things, Quartet,
:25:30. > :25:33.a film about growing old, quite disgracefully. First of all, you
:25:33. > :25:38.made a play by saying these are huge reforms today and they will
:25:38. > :25:40.simplify the system, which everyone agrees, you also said that there
:25:40. > :25:45.will be winners and loser, most people will be winners, in the
:25:45. > :25:49.long-term most of us, according to the IFS, will be losers. Over the
:25:49. > :25:53.first few decades, a pretty long time, far more people gain than
:25:53. > :25:57.lose, many women, many self- employed people, many lower earners,
:25:57. > :26:01.but higher earners will get less. Over the middle of the century and
:26:01. > :26:05.beyond, it will be true, as the chart showed, from our publication,
:26:05. > :26:08.we will spend more of our share of national income on pensions, but
:26:08. > :26:11.not much more. We are slowing the rate of growth, that is all we are
:26:11. > :26:15.doing. Slowing the rate of growth of spending on pensions. Is then
:26:15. > :26:18.the message to all of us, we will have to make private provision, and
:26:18. > :26:22.there are some who criticise the Government for its raid on private
:26:22. > :26:26.provision of pensions, and also that we will have to work longer
:26:26. > :26:30.until 70 or 72 or something like that. By the time this kicks in?
:26:30. > :26:33.Certainly working longer is part of the mix. One of the things we have
:26:33. > :26:37.done in the last few years abolish the law that allowed people to be
:26:37. > :26:42.sacked for being 65, until a couple of years ago it was legal to sack
:26:42. > :26:47.someone for that. Longer working years part of the mix, a firm
:26:47. > :26:51.foundation from the state is part of the mix, but more private
:26:51. > :26:54.savings. Today's 20-year-old were automatic enrolled in work place
:26:54. > :26:58.pensions, in decades to come they will have a state floor and a
:26:58. > :27:02.pension of their own. When we talk about the ageing population, do we
:27:02. > :27:05.have to re-think that what it means to be old, what do you think is
:27:05. > :27:10.old? We have to transform the way we think about the ageing
:27:10. > :27:14.population. There is more over 65s than there are 18-year-olds. And
:27:14. > :27:18.the fastest proportion of the population that is growing is over
:27:18. > :27:22.85s, policy makers are often 20, 30 years behind. We are going to have
:27:22. > :27:26.to reinvent the way we think about retirement, pensions, work,
:27:26. > :27:29.attitudes, and really importantly, health and social care. Because
:27:29. > :27:32.older people have a huge contribution to make, and
:27:32. > :27:36.journalists and politicians often frame this debate in terms of
:27:36. > :27:38.burden, in terms of dependency, and yet, there is a massive
:27:39. > :27:41.contribution that older people want to make, and want to stay
:27:41. > :27:46.independent and in control of their own lives. You may have a view, and
:27:46. > :27:51.the rest of us may have a view of what "old" means, but employers
:27:52. > :27:55.also have a view, it might be quite different. If you are 65 or 07 you
:27:55. > :28:00.might think you have another five or ten years in you, employers
:28:00. > :28:04.might not think that? As has been the case with the BBC. There has
:28:04. > :28:07.been big challenges about seeing the experience and skills that orld
:28:07. > :28:13.workers bring. Many want to stay in the work place longer, those that
:28:13. > :28:17.can and are able and want to stay, some employers don't recognise
:28:17. > :28:20.those skills. Most employers or some? We have some good examples,
:28:20. > :28:25.progressive employers, many in retail, Sainsbury's for example,
:28:25. > :28:29.are planning actively for a diverse work force. It is about ensuring
:28:29. > :28:33.when you are in your 50s and 60s you get access to training. One of
:28:33. > :28:37.the big challenges for the over 50s, is when you are made redundant, you,
:28:37. > :28:41.more than any other age group, find it harder to get back into work.
:28:41. > :28:45.Because of a range of factor, sometimes it is confidence, it is
:28:45. > :28:48.also about age discrimination, which still exists. Where do you
:28:48. > :28:51.stand on this, it is not just older people looking for jobs, it is lots
:28:52. > :28:56.of people looking for jobs, including 18-year-olds looking to
:28:56. > :29:02.get into the labour market, they presumably want those of us who are
:29:02. > :29:08.old Tory move out and get out of the way? The dynamics you talked
:29:08. > :29:11.about have changed over time, when we had a stakeholder modern
:29:11. > :29:15.capitalism, there was no investment in human capital formation,
:29:15. > :29:17.training, research and development, increase league as we have had more
:29:17. > :29:21.financialised companies, and companies based more on their
:29:21. > :29:25.shareholder value model, we have had less actual company input into
:29:25. > :29:28.these processes that actually create high-paying, stable jobs, in
:29:28. > :29:32.the end what you really need for a successful pension system is
:29:32. > :29:36.exactly that. The amount of jobs, you need lots of jobs that are
:29:36. > :29:39.stable jobs that pay good wages. Currently the problem is, in this
:29:39. > :29:42.country we don't necessarily, currently, but this is more about
:29:42. > :29:45.if you want a short-term issue have a growth strategy, an industrial
:29:45. > :29:49.strategy, which will actually guarantee those kinds of jobs. If
:29:49. > :29:53.you think about the other two pieces of news that came out this
:29:53. > :29:56.week, one that NHS private providers are actually asking for
:29:56. > :30:00.massive tax cuts, and you know, because they want to be treated
:30:00. > :30:03.like the NHS, but they are not like the NHS, these are profit-seeking
:30:03. > :30:07.companies, it is quite interesting that we actually have a Government
:30:07. > :30:11.that is willing to even engage in that debate, that these companies
:30:11. > :30:15.also become tax evaders themselves, and this is some how part of a
:30:15. > :30:18.legitimate debate. You talked about stable employment, nobody expects
:30:18. > :30:22.people to have 40 years and a gold watch at the end of it. What will
:30:22. > :30:26.happen to people as they get older, they will have to move on and be
:30:26. > :30:30.retrained. At that point, when you are 50 or 55 or 60, whatever it is,
:30:30. > :30:33.that is when you lose out and drop out isn't it, or many people do?
:30:33. > :30:37.This is where policy can come in, instead of having a patchy pension
:30:37. > :30:40.policy, what you really need to do line it up with the policy that
:30:40. > :30:45.also puts more demands on private companies that are currently
:30:45. > :30:49.getting away with murder. The other big news I was talking about.
:30:49. > :30:53.have one or two views on this, this question about private companies
:30:53. > :30:56.getting away with murd, they do move people on when they get to a -
:30:56. > :31:01.- murder, they do move people on when they get to a certain age?
:31:01. > :31:05.big he was change we brought in last year, is people with no
:31:05. > :31:09.mention and don't work for firms where they do provide them, now
:31:09. > :31:12.they have a right to a pension with a work place employer. That is a
:31:12. > :31:15.sea change, and against the grain of deregular lays, we need to get
:31:15. > :31:19.people into saving on top of the state. You were an inspiration,
:31:19. > :31:23.doing not too badly for someone who is beyond the traditional
:31:23. > :31:28.retirement age? I'm 78, Dame Maggie Smith is a month younger than me,
:31:28. > :31:33.she would like me to say that, tomorrow Courtney is a couple of
:31:33. > :31:37.years younger than me, Pauline Colin, Billy Connelly, all at the
:31:37. > :31:41.top of their form in their 70s or more. What Michelle said is
:31:41. > :31:45.absolutely right, we discard the old. Think of all the knowledge and
:31:45. > :31:48.wisdom that goes with retirement. I don't know how the BBC functions,
:31:48. > :31:52.but I bet they don't have anybody helping people who retire. It is a
:31:52. > :31:57.hell of a shock. Suddenly to stop work. Not to get up in the morning
:31:57. > :32:02.and know where you are going, why aren't they helped to find things.
:32:02. > :32:06.There are people, I don't know how old you are Gavin, you are probably
:32:06. > :32:10.25. Even younger! In terms it of the energy of people who are older,
:32:10. > :32:15.and in terms of young people saying why don't these guys and women get
:32:15. > :32:18.out of my way and make way for me? That is a very good point. I have
:32:18. > :32:22.younger children, they have difficulties finding jobs, work, of
:32:22. > :32:26.course they want the old to move out, that doesn't mean that old
:32:26. > :32:31.must be discarded. They can be used. The wisdom, the knowledge, the
:32:31. > :32:35.experience ought to be used. How do you channel that? Look, when you
:32:35. > :32:38.look at the literature post-Second World War, and you were talking
:32:38. > :32:42.about women being pushed out of the Labour market when the veterans
:32:42. > :32:45.were coming back from World War II, we were told then that there
:32:45. > :32:49.weren't enough jobs. I think our understanding of economic policy
:32:49. > :32:52.has moved on, there isn't a credible theory which says a
:32:52. > :32:56.younger person has to take the place of an older person's job, it
:32:56. > :33:01.is about having a clear growth strategy, about having highly-paid
:33:01. > :33:04.jobs, but also having appropriate training at all ages. It is about
:33:04. > :33:08.changing the culture, and changing how we think about all these
:33:08. > :33:13.things? The single biggest change, 65 has been a spell, male pension
:33:13. > :33:17.age has been 65 for a century. That is incredible when you think what
:33:17. > :33:22.has changed in the century. That will change in a few years time,
:33:22. > :33:27.once there is no 65, that is moving on. Watching the football, Alex
:33:27. > :33:31.faringson is running the top team, allegedly, in the country! He's 71.
:33:31. > :33:35.Just changing the way we think about it. Would you accept that is
:33:35. > :33:39.very unusual, one of the unions of today was pointing out, with these
:33:39. > :33:43.reforms, if you are relying on the Government, �144 a week will still
:33:43. > :33:46.be below the poverty line, in other words, you cannot rely on
:33:46. > :33:50.Government provision is what they are saying? Also we have a
:33:50. > :33:54.Government budget that is being undermined by, and it is not a
:33:54. > :33:57.question of a legal tax evasion, but legal tax evasion, which is
:33:57. > :34:00.what I was getting to before, you don't have a confident Government
:34:00. > :34:03.trying to increase the amount of money that the Government has to
:34:03. > :34:06.spend and to co-finance these pensions. We have decreasing amount
:34:06. > :34:10.of tax that is these large companies that used to be the
:34:10. > :34:15.providers of these well-paying table jobs, actually putting less
:34:15. > :34:18.into the system themselves, both in terms of how much they are actually
:34:18. > :34:22.investing in areas like human capital and training, but the
:34:22. > :34:26.amount they see they are responsible for, in terms of
:34:26. > :34:29.providing back to the state which funds the education, roads,
:34:29. > :34:32.transport, the technology that they depend on to become successful.
:34:33. > :34:37.This should be part of the pensions debate. Do you actually think our
:34:37. > :34:42.culture has begun to change. The very fact your film got made, does
:34:42. > :34:47.suggest things have changed a bit? We weren't pioneers, there have
:34:47. > :34:52.been films what is it called "the grey pound", she told me earlier.
:34:52. > :34:58.But it is now an accepted force in society. But we in the arts, I'm
:34:58. > :35:01.sorry to boast about this, always drive both the economy and the
:35:01. > :35:07.politicians. We change the moral complexion, and we are doing that
:35:07. > :35:12.now, and they are going to have to listen very hard. Are you listening
:35:12. > :35:15.very hard? That is the question, most of us, most of the time, hate
:35:15. > :35:18.to think about pensions any way, we hate to think about getting old,
:35:18. > :35:22.despite what you say, and all these advantages, we hate to think about
:35:22. > :35:27.it, we certainly don't want to have to plan for it? And Ronald's
:35:27. > :35:30.message is so helpful, a change in attitudes towards older pom. We
:35:30. > :35:33.recognise 20-year-olds don't think about pensions, that is why the law
:35:33. > :35:37.is they have to be put in, free to opt-out, many just get on with it,
:35:37. > :35:40.they will have it taken. We visited some supermarket workers put into
:35:40. > :35:43.the pension scheme, they all said they will stay in. They were
:35:43. > :35:48.relatively young, relatively low wage, they said they know they need
:35:48. > :35:53.a pension really. Young people we have to help with that, older
:35:53. > :35:58.workers, McDonalds stores that employ older workers are more
:35:58. > :36:02.profitable than McDonald's branches that don't. I will give awe little
:36:02. > :36:06.warning, all of you children here, old age will take you by surprise,
:36:06. > :36:10.and suddenly you need your pension. I'm a privileged member of society,
:36:10. > :36:14.I'm terribly well paid, and have been for a very long time. People
:36:14. > :36:19.who work on a regular basis are taken by surprise, they are 65 have
:36:19. > :36:21.they enough to live on? Do you accept that simplification of the
:36:21. > :36:25.system is absolutely necessary, that has at least been achieved,
:36:25. > :36:30.and there will always be winners and losers, there will be some
:36:30. > :36:33.grumbling, this is only the beginning of quite a long process
:36:33. > :36:38.in reforming the pensions system and the way we think? The children
:36:38. > :36:41.born now a number will live to be over 100. I will be living
:36:41. > :36:45.hopefully significantly longer than my mother and grandmother, the
:36:45. > :36:48.world is changing at a hugely rapid scale. One of the things we
:36:48. > :36:52.shouldn't forget. There is a positive story about ageing and
:36:52. > :36:57.getting older, which is we are living longer and we want to work
:36:57. > :37:00.and make contributions. We cannot forget the people who can't make
:37:00. > :37:04.the contributions and can't work because they have a disability,
:37:04. > :37:08.they are caring, or there isn't work in the area they live, who
:37:08. > :37:12.don't get food quality care, that aren't getting access to the NHS.
:37:12. > :37:16.We have to sit back and also say, as well as the opportunities the
:37:16. > :37:20.cultural change and attitude change, what are our values as a society,
:37:20. > :37:23.what is the minimum level of support, of care, of service that
:37:23. > :37:26.we will give. That minimum has to be higher than we are currently
:37:26. > :37:30.getting at the moment. We will leave it there, thank you all very
:37:30. > :37:34.much. Now the City of Timbuktu in Mali
:37:34. > :37:37.was once thought so foreign to our interests that its name was used to
:37:37. > :37:40.suggest that a society and culture as far removed from Britain as the
:37:40. > :37:44.moon. Now British military aircraft and advisers are helping a French
:37:44. > :37:47.mission to try to throw back Islamist extremist rebels who have
:37:47. > :37:53.taken over a large slice of malli. The fear of the country being used
:37:53. > :37:57.as a major base and training camp for Al-Qaeda and associates is part
:37:57. > :38:01.of the equation. One extremist supporter comments that France has
:38:01. > :38:05.opened the gates of hell. French newspapers worry that going in is
:38:05. > :38:08.always easier than going out. We will hear from the former French
:38:08. > :38:11.Foreign Minister in a moment. First this report.
:38:11. > :38:19.Another French intervention in another former African colony.
:38:19. > :38:21.France now has more than 500 troops in Mali. Its war planes have
:38:21. > :38:24.intensified their bombardment of Islamist rebel targets in the north
:38:24. > :38:34.of the country. They are countering, francais, a growing extremist
:38:34. > :38:39.threat. Not just to the region, but also to Europe. For French
:38:39. > :38:43.President, Francois Hollande, whose rating has plummeted since election
:38:43. > :38:52.last year, it is a coup so far. Francois Hollande was widely seen
:38:52. > :38:59.by some supporters as a rather, emindecisive person, forever
:38:59. > :39:03.consulting and deliberating. A sort of Obama in his early days. The
:39:03. > :39:09.decision to intervene in Mali, which was sudden, forceful and
:39:09. > :39:13.which appears to have been effective, has instantaneously
:39:13. > :39:17.changed President Hollande's image. Now Britain's endorsed the
:39:17. > :39:26.operation, sending transport planes to help. The first was grounded
:39:26. > :39:31.today with a technical falut fault. Mali occupies a huge space, mostly
:39:32. > :39:35.desert, at the heart of Africa. Islamists now control half the
:39:36. > :39:41.country, including the famous city of Timbuktu. Last week France
:39:41. > :39:46.helped malian forces throw rebels back from Konna, on the road to the
:39:46. > :39:51.capital. Today in fierce founting the Islamists counter-attacked and
:39:51. > :39:56.taking a town. The rebels in Mali are a variety of groups, whose
:39:57. > :40:01.allowances shift like The Sahara sands. The famous blue-robed onadms
:40:01. > :40:10.of the desert have been fighting for years for their own independent
:40:10. > :40:13.secular state in Mali. But a multinational Islamist group, has
:40:13. > :40:21.now taken over much of the north, they are called Defenders of the
:40:21. > :40:25.Faith. It includes ve various African Jihadies, it includes
:40:25. > :40:28.weaponry left over from the wars. They are good fighters, trained
:40:28. > :40:35.some of them against the Americans in Afghanistan. Some of them have
:40:35. > :40:38.been working for the Gadaffis for many years. These very well trained
:40:38. > :40:43.soldier, very tough. They are well equipped. They normally would fight
:40:43. > :40:49.a war of movement, I think, but there are stories around that they
:40:49. > :40:57.have been digging a huge base in the mountains in the extreme north-
:40:57. > :41:03.east of Mali. They have captured, among the things left behind, they
:41:03. > :41:09.captured an enormous amount of road making machine, they have been and
:41:09. > :41:16.using it to dig another Tora Bora. In towns like Timbuktu, who had
:41:16. > :41:23.their own form of Sufi Islam, they have destroyed shrines and imposed
:41:23. > :41:27.strict Sharia Law, including amputations for offenders. It is
:41:27. > :41:34.Al-Qaeda in the Maghreb that worries the west more. First and
:41:34. > :41:37.foremost so far they haven't shown the ability or even intention to
:41:37. > :41:40.directly strike in the European countries origins the west. But
:41:41. > :41:46.there is the potential for them to do it in the future, if they decide
:41:46. > :41:51.to step up their ambitions, and so to become much more active, in that
:41:51. > :41:56.ens is, and becoming maybe one of the -- in that sense, and becoming
:41:56. > :42:01.one of the major Al-Qaeda affiliates. The Government called
:42:01. > :42:03.for troops from neighbouring west African states in malicious they
:42:04. > :42:10.will start arriving earlier than expected. France was only supposed
:42:10. > :42:14.to help with training and logistic, not playing the leading part it is
:42:14. > :42:18.now undertaking. Is it just repeating its post colonial role.
:42:18. > :42:23.Until the end of the 1950s France owned a vast swathe of Africa, it
:42:23. > :42:28.never really went away, even after independence. French forces have
:42:28. > :42:32.intervened following coups, unrest or civil war, in state including
:42:32. > :42:36.Gabon, the central African Republic, the Republic of Congo, and Ivory
:42:36. > :42:41.Coast, in Chad an operation in 1968, to put down the rebellion, has
:42:41. > :42:46.ended up lasting, on and off, ever since. Could the same thing happen
:42:46. > :42:51.now in Mali? The danger for France, as with so many western
:42:51. > :42:55.interventions in overseas conflicts, is that it may get bogged down in
:42:55. > :42:59.an operation whose aims aren't clear. If west African troops are
:42:59. > :43:03.unable on their own to achieve the UN Security Council's ultimate aim
:43:03. > :43:07.of restoring state authority, throughout Mali, then French
:43:07. > :43:11.involvement may stretch from weeks into months. Already defence
:43:12. > :43:18.sources are saying that the number of French troops in the country may
:43:18. > :43:23.soon increase from 550 to 2,500, and they are warning of a long
:43:23. > :43:26.foreign military operation there. Unfortunately I have been told that
:43:26. > :43:30.our guest, the former French Foreign Minister has been unable to
:43:30. > :43:39.make it to our studio in Paris, which is a pity. Let's have a look
:43:39. > :43:47.The Times has a lovely picture of the weather with horse riding in
:43:47. > :43:50.the countryside. But the main story is Europe.
:43:50. > :43:56.It says that David Cameron will light a five-year fuse under
:43:56. > :43:59.Britain's place in Europe is how it puts it. The Independent has
:43:59. > :44:05.pictures of Jodie foster in the Golden Globe, acknowledging for the
:44:05. > :44:11.first time that she's gay, the main story is about Mali l the top brass
:44:11. > :44:17.of Number Ten -- Mali. The top brass at Number Ten say avoid Mali.
:44:17. > :44:21.It has the pensions story on the right-hand side too. The Telegraph
:44:21. > :44:27.has a lovely picture of the weather, with a stag under the snow in
:44:27. > :44:33.Derbyshire. But this main story is dementia sufferers abandoned, the
:44:33. > :44:37.Health Secretary says thousands struggle on without help, because
:44:37. > :44:47.doctors refuse to test. 500,000 people to be offered breast cancer
:44:47. > :45:12.
:45:12. > :45:15.drugs. That is all for tonight. I Good evening, still a few snow
:45:15. > :45:18.flurries tonight across eastern counties of England and Scotland.
:45:18. > :45:22.Elsewhere icey conditions to start the day. A few showers to start
:45:22. > :45:25.western parts of Wales and south- west England. Whilst the snow
:45:25. > :45:30.flurries continue through some eastern areas, for many the morning
:45:30. > :45:34.cloud breaks up, bright conditions through the afternoon. Temperatures
:45:34. > :45:38.freezing through north of England. Lincolnshire, East Anglia, parts of
:45:38. > :45:42.Kent, continue to see some sleet, a bit of snow inland. After a great
:45:42. > :45:45.start skies will brighten across other parts of the south-east. The
:45:45. > :45:49.south west and Wales sunny spells through the afternoon. A few
:45:49. > :45:52.showers still around, maybe running into Devon and Cornwall, that could
:45:52. > :45:56.produce snow over the hills. For most a dry and bright day in store
:45:56. > :45:59.after an icey start, icey start in Northern Ireland, again a lot of
:45:59. > :46:04.dry and sunny weather to come throughout the day. For Scotland
:46:04. > :46:11.the morning cloud will break up. Best of sunshine within the west,
:46:11. > :46:14.the morning snow flurries gradually dissipate in Edinburgh, the day
:46:14. > :46:19.will finish brighter we could continue with the sun shine.
:46:19. > :46:23.Temperatures really do struggle to get above freezing as is the case
:46:23. > :46:28.for Wales, we have a cold, Eastleigh flow, starting to push in.