:00:12. > :00:16.As we go on air strikes the Algerian hostage crisis is still
:00:16. > :00:20.unfolding. But there is still no clarity, as the number of oil
:00:20. > :00:23.workers involved, the number of casualties, or the attempted rescue
:00:23. > :00:27.operation at the plant by Algerian forces is actually, as the Algerian
:00:27. > :00:32.Government claims, over. The Prime Minister cancelled a speech on
:00:32. > :00:36.Europe tomorrow, and was grave when he spoke earlier tonight. It is a
:00:37. > :00:40.very dangerous, very uncertain, a very fluid situation, we have to
:00:40. > :00:43.prepare ourselves for the possibility of bad news ahead.
:00:44. > :00:49.will have the latest news as it unfolds, we will be joined by
:00:49. > :00:53.politicians and experts to discuss the crisis and the implications for
:00:53. > :00:58.foreign policy, and for western commercial activity in Algeria. A
:00:58. > :01:02.new era in medicine, the Government has plans for a national DNA
:01:02. > :01:04.database, but what benefits if we share and share alike.
:01:04. > :01:09.Government thinks the health and wealth of the nation could benefit
:01:09. > :01:14.if we were all a little more open with our data. So the qi question
:01:14. > :01:18.is, how far are we prepared -- so the question is, how far are we
:01:18. > :01:24.prepared to trade our personal information for the promise of a
:01:24. > :01:31.healthier future. And...Bear Grylls has just filmed a series on which
:01:31. > :01:38.he takes celebrities on adventures, he took them on adventures and
:01:38. > :01:47.Miranda up the hill. Charlotte Green, - sarndy Green is about to
:01:47. > :01:52.hang up her Microphon. If you have anything good to say give it to her,
:01:52. > :01:56.and her fall ago I part is one of my favourites moments.
:01:57. > :02:00.Good evening, the Prime Minister has said tonight we must brace
:02:00. > :02:04.ourselves for very difficult news at the hostage crisis at the
:02:04. > :02:08.Algerian gas plant. Now we expect multiple casualties. This evening
:02:08. > :02:11.the Algerian communication minister went on Algerian television to say
:02:11. > :02:15.the operation had been successful. We already know from the Algerian
:02:15. > :02:18.authorities that there are fatalities among the hostages, and
:02:18. > :02:24.also the Islamist militant terrorists responsele for the
:02:24. > :02:29.attack. Among the hostages in the Amenas plant in the oil region are
:02:29. > :02:33.British, French, Japanese and spweed and possibly Filipinos, one
:02:33. > :02:38.Irishman, Stephen McFaul is free, and perhaps three others. Earlier
:02:38. > :02:42.tonight David Cameron called off his speech tomorrow on Britain's
:02:42. > :02:49.future in Europe to concentrate on the crisis. Downing Street was
:02:49. > :02:54.surprised by the decision of Algeria to storm the ground by air
:02:54. > :03:00.and ground. Francois Hollande, the French President, said the action
:03:00. > :03:06.today justifies the decision to inter veen in neighbouring mal--
:03:06. > :03:09.intervene in neighbouring Mali. Mark, first of all, what was the im
:03:09. > :03:14.port of what David Cameron said tonight about preparing ourselves
:03:14. > :03:17.for bad news, do you think? I think he was expressing the concerns that
:03:17. > :03:23.resulted from the way this had unfolded this afternoon. Causing,
:03:23. > :03:28.as you say, him to cancel this long-awaited Europe speech here in
:03:28. > :03:33.Amsterdam. What became clear this afternoon was that an Algerian
:03:33. > :03:38.military operation had started, obviously without consultation with
:03:38. > :03:42.the British and other Governments, whose citizens were being held
:03:42. > :03:46.hostage. My understanding is, that Foreign Office and MI6 personnel
:03:46. > :03:49.were on the ground in Algeria, and it was from them that the British
:03:49. > :03:53.Government first learned the news that something was happening. That
:03:53. > :03:57.shots were being fired, and that the thing had turned violent. There
:03:58. > :04:00.are two versions about what happened, the first is that the
:04:00. > :04:05.hostage takers put many of the hostages in vehicles, and decided
:04:05. > :04:09.to try to break out, or move them out of the compound, the other is
:04:09. > :04:13.that the Algerian army had given some sort of ultimatum or warning,
:04:13. > :04:18.and that shots started when that ultimatum had expired. But one
:04:18. > :04:21.thing is clear, that once the violence got under way, the
:04:21. > :04:26.situation rapidly became much more serious, and quite a few people
:04:26. > :04:30.were killed. Now, as you mentioned earlier, the Algerian Information
:04:30. > :04:35.Minister has put a positive spin on this, and said that many of the
:04:35. > :04:39.hostages were freed, and that many of the militants were killed or
:04:39. > :04:46.captured. It is still a confused situation. And Downing Street has
:04:46. > :04:49.urged people to expect bad news. know Stephen McFaul either escaped
:04:49. > :04:55.or was freed, we know nothing about him, but we don't know anything
:04:55. > :04:59.about any of the other hostages. Why do you think the Algerian
:04:59. > :05:05.Government went ahead. They were in conversation with Downing Street
:05:05. > :05:08.without consultation? It seems that they didn't consult with any of the
:05:08. > :05:11.other Governments, we know for example, from the Irish Foreign
:05:11. > :05:17.Minister, who said this evening, that they weren't consulted, that
:05:17. > :05:21.is what sources in London suggest too. The US, which has said that it
:05:21. > :05:26.had six or seven people among the hostages there, also, it seems,
:05:26. > :05:29.learned about things as they turned violent, not before. It could be as
:05:29. > :05:34.simple as a commander on the ground taking a decision, events getting
:05:34. > :05:39.out of control, it could be that in some sense, the Algerian Government
:05:39. > :05:44.felt that this was too good an opportunity to miss to try to stop
:05:44. > :05:47.this notorious Islamist gang, for once and for all. But the simple
:05:47. > :05:51.truth is, in these situations where you are, if you like, in governed
:05:51. > :05:55.rather than ungoverned space, the will of the sovereign Government
:05:55. > :05:59.will always be paramount. There was one a couple of years ago, where
:05:59. > :06:04.the British wanted to free a hostage, had forces in place to do
:06:04. > :06:08.so, but the word never came, and that person was murdered.
:06:08. > :06:17.These situations never end exactly the same way. But does history tell
:06:17. > :06:21.us anything? An interesting counter point is what happened in march
:06:21. > :06:26.2011, when the -- March 2011 when the Libyan revolution had started.
:06:26. > :06:31.Another one of these big facilities in The Sahara, in the far south of
:06:31. > :06:34.Libya, came under threat. There were 150 foreign workers near Zili
:06:34. > :06:38.in the desert down there, they felt armed gangs were either going to
:06:38. > :06:41.take them hostage or start using violence towards them. At that
:06:41. > :06:45.point, in part, because of the ungoverned nature of the space, the
:06:45. > :06:50.British decided to mount a rescue operation, they sent the Special
:06:50. > :06:53.Forces from the SBS, and RAF Hercules planes in there they
:06:53. > :06:58.rescued the people. There were some shots fired, but essentially the
:06:58. > :07:03.operation was carried out without a great deal of trouble. So it can
:07:03. > :07:07.end in a positive way. If you are able, if you like, hold all the
:07:07. > :07:10.cards, in terms of making those decisions, about when to go in, and
:07:10. > :07:13.when to extract people, foreign nationals. In that case, many of
:07:13. > :07:17.them were not British, but the British felt a responsibility to
:07:17. > :07:22.their own people and the wider foreign community there. Equally,
:07:22. > :07:27.it can go totally disastrously wrong, go back to 1978, an Egyptian
:07:27. > :07:31.plane was hijacked, taken to Cyprus, Egyptian commandos then tried to
:07:31. > :07:35.storm the plane in Cyprus, without the permission of the Cypriot
:07:35. > :07:39.Government, they ended up in gun fights with the Cypriot police and
:07:39. > :07:43.troops, 15 of their commandos were killed, et cetera, et cetera. So,
:07:43. > :07:48.that kind of macho attempt to determine the outcome of these
:07:48. > :07:51.things, has, in the past, gone disastrously wrong. We see the
:07:51. > :07:55.other extreme with the British mission in Libya nearly two years
:07:55. > :08:00.ago. In the intervening years, countless examples where small
:08:00. > :08:04.numbers of people have been taken, particularly by this type of group
:08:04. > :08:08.in The Sahara, and randsoms have been paid, or some other
:08:08. > :08:12.arrangements have been reached, and people have been freed. We have
:08:12. > :08:17.been trying to piece together all today's events.
:08:17. > :08:22.The exact details of what happened today at the Ain Amenas in eastern
:08:22. > :08:25.Algeria are still unclear. But certainly the operation by the
:08:25. > :08:29.Algerian military to rescue the hostages, held there since
:08:29. > :08:33.yesterday by Islamist militants, went badly wrong. Earlier in the
:08:33. > :08:38.day there was some good news, as one hostage, Stephen McFaul from
:08:38. > :08:43.Belfast, phoned his family to say that some how he was free.
:08:43. > :08:48.elated. I just can't describe how happy I am. I didn't think we
:08:48. > :08:50.would...I didn't think we would get this so soon. But even as the
:08:50. > :08:55.rescue operation continued, the British Government sought to
:08:55. > :09:00.prepare others for the worst. a very dangerous and very uncertain
:09:00. > :09:06.and fluid situation. I think we have to prepare ourselves for the
:09:06. > :09:09.possibility of bad news ahead. COBRA officials here are working
:09:09. > :09:13.around the clock to do everything we can to keep in contact with the
:09:13. > :09:17.families, to build the fullest possible picture of the information
:09:17. > :09:22.and the intelligence that we have. I have chaired meetings of COBRA
:09:22. > :09:24.today, I will continue to do so. I will do everything I can to update
:09:25. > :09:29.people about what is a difficult and dangerous and potentially very
:09:29. > :09:34.bad situation. Now, several hours later, there are
:09:34. > :09:44.still conflicting reports about how many died, in an operation the UK
:09:44. > :09:45.
:09:45. > :09:49.wasn't warned about in advance. Downing Street has let it be known
:09:49. > :09:54.about Algeria not letting other states know before mounting
:09:54. > :09:57.operations. The Foreign Office offered advice on siege tactics and
:09:57. > :10:02.other information, but it was ignored. When they began their
:10:02. > :10:06.assault, the Government here was completely shocked. Why did it end
:10:06. > :10:10.like this, this is a former Jihadi fighter, who tracks the activities
:10:10. > :10:14.of Islamist commanders, some of which he knew personally, and
:10:14. > :10:17.Government's response to them. the incident happened in gall
:10:17. > :10:20.gearia, they would like to set up from now the standards of the
:10:20. > :10:24.Algerians, there is no negotiations with terrorists, we are not going
:10:24. > :10:29.to accept to be the victims of this intervention, this is our methods,
:10:29. > :10:35.this is our measures, which is very brutal, and very direct. Military-
:10:35. > :10:39.based, even if there is other victims from civilians. It is the
:10:39. > :10:44.conflict in Mali, its southern neighbour, that Algeria wants to
:10:44. > :10:48.insulate itself from. French forces moved in there last week to try to
:10:48. > :10:52.crush a growing Islamist insurgency. Was the attack on the western gas
:10:52. > :10:57.workers, that now appears to have ended in such tragedy, a direct
:10:57. > :11:00.retaliation for that. This attack, has been planned for many, many
:11:00. > :11:04.months before the French intervention or international
:11:05. > :11:11.intervention in Mali. But just, I think, when it happened last week,
:11:11. > :11:15.maybe it gave the terrorist group a legitimate, from the ideolgical
:11:15. > :11:21.point of view, legitimate reasons to carry out the attack. Because
:11:21. > :11:26.the group itself, or the nature of the leader of the group, by is
:11:26. > :11:32.Mokhtar Belmokhtar, if we study his history over the last ten years, he
:11:32. > :11:38.usually asks for ransomes, he has never been -- randsons, he has
:11:38. > :11:41.never been involved in killing or capturing hostages. Whatever his
:11:41. > :11:47.reasons, we know that Mokhtar Belmokhtar and those like him are a
:11:47. > :11:50.real threat of the west. Until recently he was head of Al-Qaeda in
:11:50. > :11:53.the Islamic Maghreg, one of the Islamist groups who have been
:11:53. > :11:57.building up their strength throughout this poorly defended
:11:57. > :12:00.region of porous borders. It was in Algeria in the 1990s, that those
:12:00. > :12:05.groups first launched a major insurge circumstance eventually
:12:05. > :12:09.defeated by the Government, at a cost of 150,000 lives, perhaps. In
:12:09. > :12:14.Libya, since the fall of Colonel Gaddafi, some of the Islamists he
:12:14. > :12:17.once defeated have now returned. And some, like others from Algeria,
:12:17. > :12:23.have crossed The Sahara into northern Mali, taking advantage of
:12:23. > :12:27.the collapse of state authority, in the wake of a rebellion by ethnic
:12:27. > :12:30.Tuareg seperatists. Some of those Islamists are believed to have
:12:31. > :12:34.training from Al-Shabab, the militant Islamist group that has
:12:34. > :12:38.controlled much of Somalia in recent years. They have been joined
:12:38. > :12:44.by fighters from Nigeria, from the Islamist group, Boko Haram,
:12:44. > :12:48.fighting the Government there. Shabab in Somalia, they trained
:12:48. > :12:54.explosive makers and experts for Boko Haram, and Boko Haram
:12:54. > :12:57.themselves, they have a significant number of many of their fighters in
:12:57. > :13:01.northern Mali, to establish networks and connection and co-
:13:01. > :13:05.operation between the other groups in northern Mali. And why? Because
:13:05. > :13:09.they share the same ideology and the same goals. This ideology and
:13:09. > :13:14.goals is very important, this is the culture that is keeping the
:13:14. > :13:18.network together. It acts as the Super Glue to hold all this loose
:13:18. > :13:23.network together. To counter that threat, Nigerian
:13:23. > :13:27.troops are now following the French into Mali, to join an operation
:13:27. > :13:30.that President Hollande today said had been proved to be justified.
:13:30. > :13:34.TRANSLATION: What's happening in Algeria absolutely justifies a
:13:34. > :13:39.decision I took on behalf of France to come to the help of Mali, in
:13:39. > :13:42.accordance with the United Nations charter, and at the request of the
:13:42. > :13:46.President of Mali. Today's terrible events in Algeria, though, suggest
:13:46. > :13:50.that in the short-term at least, the north African Islamist threat
:13:50. > :13:55.can only increase. There is a surge of militantcy at the moment, it is
:13:55. > :14:01.linked to what's happening in Afghanistan, and in Somalia, and
:14:01. > :14:05.they are trying to create the same sort of pushback against the west,
:14:05. > :14:09.and non-Islamic people. I think it will be very dangerous for non-
:14:09. > :14:15.Islamic people, for Europeans, to travel in these countries for the
:14:15. > :14:17.next few years. I think they really do have got their selves now, and I
:14:17. > :14:21.don't think the Governments -- themselves now, and I don't think
:14:21. > :14:23.the Governments have the capacity to contain them. Today's tragedy
:14:23. > :14:28.will change our whole view of the region.
:14:28. > :14:33.With me to discuss the latest in the hostage situation are the
:14:33. > :14:37.former Lib Dem leader and member of the Intelligence and Security
:14:37. > :14:41.Committee, Ming the Merciless Campbell. And from Washington the
:14:41. > :14:45.former US Assistant Secretary of State for public affairs, now a
:14:45. > :14:51.fellow at the George Washington Institute for Public diplomacy.
:14:51. > :14:55.Ming the Merciless Campbell, it must be a draet -- Ming Campbell,
:14:55. > :15:00.it must be terrible for the families that no information is
:15:00. > :15:03.known. Today in the Scottish Parliament, Alex Salmond indicated
:15:03. > :15:08.that two of the hostages are Scottish, is there any information
:15:08. > :15:11.on that? There doesn't appear to be any more information on that at the
:15:11. > :15:16.moment. I understand Alex Salmond was speaking after a conversation
:15:16. > :15:20.with the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister after a meeting of COBR A,
:15:20. > :15:25.that is the committee immediately formed when crises of this kind
:15:25. > :15:29.occur. It seems to me that one of the first questions will be, did
:15:29. > :15:35.the Algerian Government act out of necessity, or was it out of some
:15:35. > :15:40.kind of view of national pride? The answer to that question may be very
:15:40. > :15:43.important in so far as if there is a breakdown in relations between
:15:43. > :15:47.the Governments of those who have been killed, and the Algerian
:15:48. > :15:51.Government, that may make finding out exactly what happened more
:15:51. > :15:55.difficult. Especially as we know the Algerian Government say no to
:15:55. > :16:00.negotiation, we just heard on the report that there was quite a lot
:16:00. > :16:05.of traffic between Number Ten and the Foreign Office, and Algeria,
:16:05. > :16:09.saying negotiate, discuss, hold off, by clearly was either ignored or,
:16:09. > :16:13.by the necessity, ignored? You can have a policy of saying we are not
:16:13. > :16:18.going to negotiate, but that doesn't mean to say you have to
:16:18. > :16:23.take action as soon as appears to have happened in this case. If you
:16:24. > :16:27.think about it, British Special Forces, and American special force,
:16:28. > :16:33.and French Special Forces, have got a much greater amount of experience
:16:33. > :16:37.about this kind of thing than putting it bluntly, any Algerian
:16:37. > :16:40.equivalent might have. That is why there will be suspicions that this
:16:40. > :16:43.was an -- suspicions that this was an action taken out of national
:16:43. > :16:49.pride. Whatever the reason it was taken for, none the less, as the
:16:49. > :16:53.Prime Minister said, if I may say so, in a some sombre mood than I
:16:53. > :16:58.have ever seen him before, we have to expect the worse, and what has
:16:58. > :17:05.been called, "multiple casualties". From your point of view, if Number
:17:05. > :17:07.Ten was talking to the Algerians about tactics, it would be
:17:07. > :17:11.presumably inconceivable that the state department was not also doing
:17:11. > :17:14.the same thing? The state department has been in touch with
:17:14. > :17:20.senior Algerian officials, including the Prime Minister. I do
:17:20. > :17:23.not know what kinds of consultations occurred today,
:17:24. > :17:28.either immediately before or after the Algerian action. I think you
:17:28. > :17:32.have to put this in context with Algeria's history. I'm not sure it
:17:33. > :17:37.is about national pride as much as steps that Algeria has taken, not
:17:37. > :17:41.only going back into the 1990s, but also over the past two years to try
:17:41. > :17:44.to insulate itself from trends that are happening in neighbouring
:17:44. > :17:48.countries. Do you think it is quite shocking to the Americans that they
:17:48. > :17:55.went in today, or do you think the Americans thought that Algeria
:17:55. > :18:00.would do it their own way? I think there has been an effort in recent
:18:00. > :18:07.weeks and months to get Algeria more engaged in trying to help
:18:07. > :18:11.solve the situation in Mali, and Algeria has been involved in some
:18:11. > :18:18.dialogue to try to work with all the forces in northern Mali. It is
:18:18. > :18:26.a really interesting mix. You have got Tuareg, indigenous Tuareg
:18:26. > :18:30.tribes that have historical historical grievances, and
:18:30. > :18:34.opportunists in it for the revenue from hostage taking, and you have
:18:34. > :18:37.these elements closely linked to Al-Qaeda in the Maghreg. It has
:18:38. > :18:42.been very, very difficult for all the stakeholders to try to sort out
:18:42. > :18:46.who are those you can deal with and who are those you can't. At the
:18:46. > :18:50.very heart of this, Claire, is Al- Qaeda, a former commander of Al-
:18:50. > :18:54.Qaeda. Before we actually get on to that, what went wrong today, do you
:18:54. > :18:58.think? I think we have to reserve judgment until we get more
:18:58. > :19:02.information about what was actually going on amongst the hostage takers
:19:02. > :19:06.and the hostages. There were reports yesterday, for example,
:19:06. > :19:10.that explosives were strapped to the hostages, and that there were
:19:10. > :19:15.threats to kill them straight away, should any attack like this be
:19:15. > :19:19.launched. Somewhere inbetween this, there must have been a calculation
:19:19. > :19:23.that a surprise attack would happen before they could actually detonate,
:19:23. > :19:26.if you like, sadly, some of the hostages. Do you think that is why
:19:26. > :19:30.Algeria might have moved very quickly, because of the idea that
:19:30. > :19:33.there were suicide bombers. Obviously they would have needed
:19:33. > :19:35.some kind of intelligence about where the hostages are. I
:19:35. > :19:43.understand one of the reasons they have been saying the mission wasn't
:19:43. > :19:46.complete earlier this evening, was that they had to search the whole
:19:46. > :19:50.facility to see if people were hiding out in it. We are in
:19:50. > :19:54.situation now where we are dealing with, not Al-Qaeda itself, but
:19:54. > :19:59.Mokhtar Belmokhtar, who himself is trying to improve himself, even he
:19:59. > :20:03.is slightly separate from Al-Qaeda in the region. In the report it was
:20:03. > :20:07.saying that in the area Al-Qaeda is completely unfettered by the idea
:20:07. > :20:11.of nation states. In a sense, no matter how much Algeria is trying
:20:11. > :20:17.to be brought into the fold, is it extremely dangerous place for all
:20:17. > :20:19.these companies, that are trying to move in there, British Airways,
:20:19. > :20:22.GlaxoSmithKline, all these companies trying to do business?
:20:22. > :20:27.One of the things that will have to be investigated is how it was
:20:27. > :20:31.possible, in an area where, as we know in the 1990, there was always
:20:31. > :20:35.a possibility, Algeria itself was ridden with internal violence, of
:20:36. > :20:40.an Islamist nature, but other factors at play, there were big
:20:40. > :20:44.fears then that the oil and gas facilities would be attacked by
:20:44. > :20:48.insurgents of different kinds, and largely, they weren't. A lot of gas
:20:48. > :20:53.pipelines were attacked but they were repaired. What has gone on
:20:53. > :20:57.recently, it has been fairly safe, yet this Al-Qaeda in the Islamic
:20:57. > :21:02.Maghreg has a residual presence, not much, around 200 people in
:21:03. > :21:06.Algeria itself, but have also migrated, not just across the
:21:06. > :21:13.Sahara but other regions. They haven't attacked the facilities in
:21:13. > :21:17.recent years, why now. They claimed yesterday, Mokhtar's crew, that it
:21:17. > :21:25.was associated with the French attacks in Mali. Mokhtar, what was
:21:25. > :21:29.it, was it ransome, or was it Mali? -- randson or Mali? I think it is
:21:29. > :21:34.interesting, he was the leader of Al-Qaeda in the Islamic faction in
:21:34. > :21:37.malli. He has been part of the faction that has enriched himself
:21:37. > :21:43.through that. He has been reported to have separated himself, had an
:21:44. > :21:47.argument with other leaders, this is a new faction movement he's
:21:47. > :21:53.heading. Do you think, Francois Hollande says this justifies
:21:53. > :21:57.France's action in national Mali. Do you think the two are linked?
:21:57. > :22:02.think that's an inference that people will want to example very,
:22:02. > :22:05.very carefully, I'm not sure I would go along with Mr Hollande to
:22:05. > :22:08.say this justifies the French action. Afterall the French action
:22:08. > :22:16.was taken for a particular purpose in relation to Mali. What people
:22:16. > :22:22.want to know is whether it is a consequence that came of the French
:22:22. > :22:25.action. What people want to know is whether it means, rather as some
:22:25. > :22:33.other contributors have indicated, whether it will be regarded as open
:22:33. > :22:35.season on these plants. Which are soft target. They are enormous and
:22:35. > :22:40.difficult to guard. It would be virtually impossible to make sure
:22:40. > :22:43.you could keep them safe in all circumstances, against a determined
:22:43. > :22:50.Islamist terrorist force like the one we are talking about. Which
:22:50. > :22:55.then, begs the question, there may be some help being given by British
:22:55. > :23:03.forces in malli. It begs the question will British forces have
:23:03. > :23:08.to become part of the operation in Mali? What we have so far
:23:08. > :23:12.contributed it is the provision of transport aircraft, two C-17s, and
:23:12. > :23:15.the crime up until now has been pretty strong, as indeed has the
:23:15. > :23:20.Foreign Secretary, in saying there is no intention of putting British
:23:20. > :23:24.boots on the ground. I have to say there was general support in the
:23:24. > :23:29.House of Commons for the action taken so far, if that were to be
:23:29. > :23:32.extended, either by in degree or inkind, there would be very
:23:32. > :23:37.substantial political reservation, and also, in the light of our
:23:37. > :23:42.recent history in Afghanistan and before that Iraq, very considerable
:23:42. > :23:46.reservations in the minds of the public. The huge resistance among
:23:46. > :23:49.ordinary Americans about getting embroiled in Mali, it mate be, if
:23:49. > :23:54.this is the big focus for Al-Qaeda, that the US might have no other
:23:54. > :23:57.action but to become embroiled in Mali with the French? It is not
:23:57. > :24:02.likely that the United States will become directly involved, because
:24:02. > :24:07.by US law, because there was the military coup last March, the
:24:07. > :24:12.United States has prevented -- is prevent the legally from providing
:24:12. > :24:16.assistance to the mally Government. A lot of lawyers here in Washington
:24:16. > :24:22.are working overtime to find out how to support the French and the
:24:22. > :24:26.in coming African intervention force, without breaking US law. I
:24:27. > :24:31.do think that it will accelerate the planning that was already under
:24:31. > :24:37.way. Because obviously what we are seeing on the ground is perhaps a
:24:37. > :24:41.far more dangerous situation, and the capabilities of the insurgents
:24:41. > :24:45.are much more significant than might have been initially assessed.
:24:45. > :24:50.But, you know, where as the United States has taken direct action in
:24:50. > :24:54.places like Pakistan and Yemen, Mali will follow, I think, the
:24:54. > :25:00.Somali model, where you will be empowering indigenous regional
:25:00. > :25:03.forces to take action, in Somalia it has been successful, as of yet
:25:03. > :25:11.not successful in Mali. You were saying, we know tonight that sat
:25:11. > :25:15.oil and BP are pulling -- Statoil, and BP are pulling out all but
:25:15. > :25:18.essential workers in the two plants in Algeria. If Algeria thinks it is
:25:18. > :25:24.literally drawing blood, do you think that the push will really be
:25:24. > :25:27.done to make the western companies feel very uncomfortable in Algeria?
:25:27. > :25:31.It depends how many survive the attack. Don't forget the movements
:25:31. > :25:34.are still very small. I don't know how many are involved in this
:25:35. > :25:39.current assault, there is about 20, but I think we are talking all
:25:39. > :25:44.about 200 people, perhaps in these movements. They know the terrain
:25:44. > :25:47.very well. They have been operating in these very difficult areas for
:25:47. > :25:52.some time. At least over the last four or five years. They have
:25:52. > :25:56.become wealthy. They are not just involved in taking previous
:25:56. > :26:03.hostages for money, don't forget the French still have a number of
:26:03. > :26:06.French hostages, there are others still in the region who have yet to
:26:06. > :26:10.be asked for money. They have the opportunity of withdrawing and
:26:10. > :26:13.doing this on a future occasion if they retain the ability to do so.
:26:13. > :26:17.We really need to wait until the outcome of this current crisis to
:26:17. > :26:23.ask some of these questions about why curt had got so lax, what is
:26:23. > :26:26.the rational now, if they haven't attacked, what essentially are a
:26:26. > :26:31.primary part of the Algerian economy. 97% of their income comes
:26:31. > :26:33.from exports of oil and gas. So if they haven't attacked them, if they
:26:33. > :26:37.are really against the Algerian authorities, why haven't they done
:26:37. > :26:40.this before, why have they been able do this in a situation where
:26:40. > :26:44.security measures have been taken. Thank you all very much indeed. If
:26:44. > :26:49.we have any more news from Algeria, of course we will bring it to you
:26:49. > :26:52.during the programme. Big Data is one of the Government's
:26:52. > :26:57.favourite big ideas, the idea is about analysing everyone from the
:26:57. > :27:02.police to retailers to doctors, and even sports teams will you ever
:27:02. > :27:05.cover trends, fresh insights into the way the world looks.
:27:05. > :27:10.Enthusiasts say we should use better use of this stash of
:27:10. > :27:15.digitised information, to make us more efficient and save money. It
:27:15. > :27:21.is contentious, much of this information is personal and some
:27:21. > :27:25.private. Many databases are being created for our most intimate data,
:27:25. > :27:35.our DNA, the information that describes us. Who will decide who
:27:35. > :27:39.
:27:39. > :27:43.gets to know what? And will it revolutionise medicine? Most of the
:27:43. > :27:48.time we are not aware of it, but as we go about our daily lives we
:27:49. > :27:53.create a trail. A trail of data, and masses of it. A digital record
:27:53. > :27:58.of where we are and what we are doing. As computing power increases,
:27:58. > :28:04.and gets cheaper, we can gather and analyse this information on an
:28:04. > :28:10.ever-grander scale. We live in what's being called the era of big
:28:10. > :28:15.data. Unlocking the messages held within this mass of raw data, could
:28:15. > :28:19.help us to lead lives that are more efficient and save money. But could
:28:19. > :28:23.also reveal information about each and every one of us that is
:28:23. > :28:27.sensitive. Many of us might not care too much about some of the
:28:27. > :28:30.data that's collected on us, say what we buy at the supermarket or
:28:30. > :28:35.how we use public transport. But when it comes to information about
:28:35. > :28:39.our health, many of us see that has so personal, we want to be sure it
:28:39. > :28:42.is kept especially safe. The Government thinks the health and
:28:42. > :28:48.wealth of the nation could benefit if we were all a little more open
:28:48. > :28:52.with our data. So the question is, how far are we prepared to trade
:28:52. > :28:57.our personal information for the promise of a healthier future?
:28:57. > :29:04.passionate about this, because I see this as being quite a dramatic
:29:04. > :29:08.change in the way that medicine is likely to evolve. Given that a lot
:29:08. > :29:11.of this information is personally sensitive, it has to be used in the
:29:11. > :29:15.right way. You have to be honest with people about what is going on,
:29:15. > :29:20.and you have to give people the opportunity to opt-out. The grand
:29:20. > :29:22.bargain the Government is offering us, is if we give them our DNA they
:29:22. > :29:30.will revolutionise healthcare. It is not clear that the British
:29:30. > :29:34.public is actually willing to accept that bargain.
:29:34. > :29:38.The Government already seems pretty convinced, at the end of last year
:29:38. > :29:43.it launched a big data project for some of the most intimate of
:29:43. > :29:47.personal information. The DNA readout of 100,000 Britains,
:29:47. > :29:52.suffering from rare diseases and cancer. It is a -- Britons
:29:53. > :29:58.suffering from rare diseases and cancer. Not only does each patient
:29:59. > :30:01.have a unique DNA code, but so do their cancer tumour, doctors need
:30:01. > :30:05.both to identify the most appropriate treatment. It is the
:30:05. > :30:09.future for healthcare because we want to crack cancer, and the DNA
:30:09. > :30:13.database can help us to do that. We also want to keep Britain at the
:30:13. > :30:20.absolute forefront of Biotech nolg and pharmaceutical industries, we
:30:20. > :30:24.can be a real world-leader in this. So, aside from highlighting British
:30:24. > :30:27.innovation and attracting investment, the idea initially is
:30:27. > :30:31.to help people who are already sick, that is because we know, for
:30:31. > :30:41.example, that some people's cancer tumours will respond better to one
:30:41. > :30:43.
:30:43. > :30:46.drug rather than another. For the rest of us, if enough people are on
:30:46. > :30:50.the database, trends will become clear. So we can be more confident
:30:50. > :30:54.that our personal DNA readout can be checked against the trends, and
:30:54. > :30:57.might warn us we are more at risk about certain diseases, and do
:30:57. > :31:01.something about it, like changing our lifestyle and getting screened.
:31:01. > :31:04.We might be able to avoid drugs known to be toxic in people who
:31:04. > :31:09.carry a similar genetic make up to our's.
:31:09. > :31:15.The data at the heart of the project is the DNA double heel lix,
:31:15. > :31:19.it is made of four -- helix, it is made of a code with four letters,
:31:19. > :31:24.the string of letters that spell out a human being is huge. It took
:31:25. > :31:29.about eight years and cost billions of dollars to unravel the first
:31:29. > :31:37.human genome. But now, the computer technology that made that possible
:31:37. > :31:41.is far more powerful and cheaper. It now take as little over a day to
:31:41. > :31:46.sequence a person's DNA, although it is not yet possible, there is
:31:46. > :31:49.talk of a $100 price tag. Cost serving, I wasn't talking about
:31:49. > :31:56.this two years ago, I wasn't even talking about it one year ago,
:31:56. > :32:00.because the cost of doing this was such that it would be an enormous
:32:00. > :32:09.burden to do it at scale, but the cost of sequencing a whole genome,
:32:09. > :32:16.as you know, has fallen by more than 100,000 fold in ten years.
:32:16. > :32:19.Andrew Wilkie works on rare genetic disorders, he uses the power of DNA
:32:19. > :32:22.sequences to look at cranial disorders. His work provides
:32:22. > :32:27.families with answers, and can help them make decisions about having
:32:27. > :32:32.more children. I return a small lab with about four staff working in it,
:32:32. > :32:39.in the past couple of years, we have identified as many new genes
:32:39. > :32:44.in my group of disorders, the facial malformation, as the entire
:32:44. > :32:48.world achieved in the previous decade. So, that's obviously
:32:49. > :32:55.spectacular progress. Also, of course, it represents incredibly
:32:55. > :33:00.good value for money. The NHS already has world class Big Data
:33:00. > :33:05.projects in place, notably a system that enables scientists to carry
:33:05. > :33:10.out research on our clinical information, once anon-miceed, and
:33:10. > :33:15.there are begin -- anonymised, and there are genetic databases too.
:33:15. > :33:18.The idea of bringing it all together is to create a much more
:33:18. > :33:21.powerful scheme of data, so scientists can better understand
:33:21. > :33:25.disease and people get better drugs that might suit their disease.
:33:25. > :33:29.of the things we have in the UK is scale. The truth is, there is lots
:33:29. > :33:33.of data systems in the world, which are five million people here and
:33:33. > :33:36.four-and-a-half million year, on tearia has one, Scotland, Australia,
:33:36. > :33:42.some of the healthcare systems in the states have got them. The great
:33:43. > :33:45.thing about the UK and the particularly UK NHS is it is 50
:33:46. > :33:49.million people, it is at that scale you will have the power to detect
:33:49. > :33:53.all kinds of things that are very powerful in terms of the management
:33:53. > :33:58.of the disease and have quite a profound impact. It may be some
:33:58. > :34:08.time before there are enough people signed up to realise the promised
:34:08. > :34:10.
:34:10. > :34:17.power from gen omics in the UK. In Iceland they have already tried to
:34:17. > :34:22.harness its potential, although in on a smaller scale. A company
:34:22. > :34:28.called Deco Genetics set out to put the DNA code of the country's
:34:28. > :34:33.entire population. The aim was to identified genetic risks for common
:34:33. > :34:37.diseases. The project proved controversial over privacy and data
:34:37. > :34:42.projection issues, the Icelandic High Court questioned its legal
:34:42. > :34:49.basis. The Government boasts the UK will be the first country to
:34:49. > :34:54.introduce DNA seek qensing in a mainstream -- sequencing into a
:34:54. > :34:58.mainstream system. That is part of the problem. This computer expert
:34:58. > :35:06.said medical data is hard to protect, because it is so rich in
:35:06. > :35:11.information. The NHS has traditionally anon-ised details by
:35:11. > :35:17.taking off people's personal details but leaving on your date of
:35:17. > :35:21.birth and postcode. This doesn't give you any protection at all
:35:21. > :35:26.against a competent adversary. Postcode and date of birth is
:35:26. > :35:30.enough to identify 99% of people easily. There are all sorts of
:35:30. > :35:35.circumstances that will identify people uniquely, the fact that a
:35:35. > :35:40.certain person got a certain preeplt on a particular day, --
:35:40. > :35:44.treatment on a particular day may be well known, that might enable
:35:44. > :35:48.somebody to pick out their medical record from a database of 50
:35:48. > :35:58.million others. You probably can't get around the issue that no data
:35:58. > :35:59.
:35:59. > :36:03.in any setting is absolutely anon- ised, and secure, -- anonymised and
:36:03. > :36:07.secure. I think the constraints in the system that have already been
:36:07. > :36:11.thought about, about other types of clinical data, are probably pretty
:36:11. > :36:15.secure. One of the great things about the databases is you may not
:36:15. > :36:19.be able to make it secure, but you know what everybody has done in the
:36:19. > :36:23.database, you can track down who has looked at what, when they have
:36:23. > :36:28.looked at it, how they have looked at it. The current plan seems to
:36:28. > :36:32.rely, in part, on limiting access to the data to trusted research
:36:32. > :36:35.partners. Whether in the public or private sector. But some say that's
:36:35. > :36:45.not enough, and want the Government to make clear the precise details
:36:45. > :36:48.of how it plans to keep our data secure? What we actually need is
:36:48. > :36:52.for anonymisation methods to be open to the public, so we can see
:36:52. > :36:56.what is happening to our data, and we can work out whether the
:36:56. > :36:59.protection is adequate. He want to see the mechanisms and test them, I
:36:59. > :37:04.want to be able to kick the tiles, if the Government is lying, I want
:37:04. > :37:09.to expose them and embarrass them for it. Bioth cyst, Stuart Hogarth,
:37:09. > :37:15.says he's not sure people are ready to buy in on this one. The grand
:37:15. > :37:20.bargain the Government is offering us, if we give them DNA, they will
:37:20. > :37:28.revolutionise healthcare, it is not clear that we need so much begin no
:37:28. > :37:32.mamic data to understand the begin et genomic data to understand our
:37:32. > :37:35.genes. It is not clear that the Government has the IT skills to put
:37:35. > :37:39.in place a giant project like this. It is not clear whether or not the
:37:39. > :37:44.British public will accept that bargain. Others think that if David
:37:44. > :37:48.Cameron's goal is to attract life sciences industries to the UK, he
:37:48. > :37:52.should look more widely than the promise of mass data sets. Richard
:37:52. > :37:56.Sullivan has worked in the pharmaceutical industry, and was
:37:56. > :38:00.clinical director of Cancer Research UK for eight years. There
:38:00. > :38:03.is absolutely no doubt the NHS is in a unique position to do all
:38:03. > :38:07.sorts of association and co- relation studies between science
:38:07. > :38:10.and patient outcome. The reality is industry is in the UK because of
:38:10. > :38:13.the excellence of the healthcare professionals and the ability of
:38:13. > :38:16.the NHS to do clinical trials, it is here because of the creativity
:38:16. > :38:22.and the brilliance of our scientists. That is what industry
:38:22. > :38:27.looks for. Not simply a very large data collection exercise. So before
:38:27. > :38:30.we embark on such big data experiments, whether with the
:38:30. > :38:34.nation's health or other private information. Many people want to be
:38:34. > :38:38.reassured that they will have the choice to opt in, rather than
:38:38. > :38:42.having to take the time and trouble to opt-out. They will want to know
:38:42. > :38:46.who stands to gain in this trade in data, they will want to be
:38:46. > :38:51.reassured that the Government has taken the best possible steps to
:38:51. > :38:56.protect sensitive information before it is handed over.
:38:56. > :38:59.The use of Big Data will grow, because it promises so much. But we
:38:59. > :39:03.will only know for certain who is doing what, with the data the
:39:03. > :39:12.Government holds on all of us, if it is used in a way that is open,
:39:12. > :39:16.testable and transparent. After a quarter of a century the
:39:16. > :39:23.Radio 4 news announcer, Charlotte Green is leaving the BBC tomorrow.
:39:23. > :39:28.Firstly, we must apologise for ridiculously playing the clip of
:39:28. > :39:34.another announcer Harriet Cass, she is leaving the BBC, but later in
:39:34. > :39:37.the year and that is no excuse for mixing the clips. She has
:39:37. > :39:41.unflapable poise, while yearning for one of her show-stopping fits
:39:41. > :39:47.of giggles. We have been speaking to the retiring voice of the nation.
:39:47. > :39:53.With the BBC News, Charlotte Green. It is hard to believe, I know, but
:39:53. > :39:58.the once lofty standards of broadcasting and grammar at the BBC
:39:58. > :40:01.are about to get a whole lot worseer. That is because of the one
:40:01. > :40:07.of the most beloved and trusted voices on radio is taking her leave
:40:07. > :40:11.of the mic. Charlotte Green is a self- effacing and admired. She
:40:11. > :40:15.agreed to talk to Newsnight, provided no-one could see she was
:40:15. > :40:23.on the programme. I know it has come to that! People have an image
:40:24. > :40:27.of you as being really very sober andsome better, because of how --
:40:27. > :40:31.sombre, because of how you read the bulletin. When they meet me, I like
:40:31. > :40:35.to have a laugh and have a lot of fun with people. For some,
:40:35. > :40:43.Charlotte will always be the voice of the shipping forecast. We may
:40:43. > :40:47.never know how many have found solace in her voice. They send me
:40:47. > :40:54.Valentine's cards, and rather sweet letters, actually. But with a
:40:54. > :40:58.certain whistfulness in them. the listeners you are the acme of
:40:58. > :41:02.professionalism. I'm really sorry. Just then Charlotte's mobile went
:41:02. > :41:05.off, there was evidence it was her presumed successor. Nine men have
:41:05. > :41:08.gone on trial at the Old Bailey...Butter Wouldn't melt,
:41:08. > :41:18.don't you believe it. American historians have discovered what
:41:18. > :41:23.they think is the earliest recording of the human voice.
:41:23. > :41:32.(laughs) The award-winning screenwriter Abby Mann as died at
:41:32. > :41:42.the age of 80 ...excuse me, sorry (giggles) he won lots of Emmys,
:41:42. > :41:43.
:41:43. > :41:47.including one in 1973...(giggles) for a film that featured a police
:41:47. > :41:53.detective...It Is 8.10. We who present the programme genuinely
:41:53. > :41:58.believe it is about us, and funnily enough you are quickly disabused of
:41:58. > :42:02.that illusion, the listeners don't see it like that at all. One of the
:42:02. > :42:08.early questions I was always asked was "you must know Charlotte Green",
:42:08. > :42:11.followed by "what's she really like"? There is something about
:42:11. > :42:17.Charlotte that says Radio 4, if she says something is happening in the
:42:17. > :42:22.news you absolutely believe her. We save up anything with disgraceful
:42:22. > :42:27.innuendo and we give it to Charlotte. Her falling apart is one
:42:27. > :42:30.of my favourite things. Bring in the new year with a bang! And with
:42:30. > :42:34.that, goodbye. I'm goingry lance, and I hope to
:42:34. > :42:39.come back and do the occasional news quiz, which would be the icing
:42:39. > :42:44.on the cake. Do you fancy Newsnight? If you're offering!
:42:44. > :42:48.you have any broadcasting ambitions still unfulfilled, would you like
:42:48. > :42:52.to dub a Kung Fu movie, is there something? I have always wanted to
:42:52. > :43:00.read out the football results, ever since I was about six years old,
:43:00. > :43:10.that is something I would love to do. The fabulous Charlotte Green,
:43:10. > :43:19.
:43:19. > :43:29.tomorrow morning's front pages. We Laura Robson on the right there.
:43:29. > :43:29.
:43:29. > :44:13.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 43 seconds
:44:13. > :44:19.Epic match at the Australian Open. We must make it clear there is no
:44:19. > :44:23.certainty about what happened yet at the gas plant. Finally in the
:44:23. > :44:33.Express they decided not to go in the Algeria story, they go with
:44:33. > :44:39.
:44:39. > :44:44.It is not often we get the chance to have royalty on Newsnight.
:44:44. > :44:48.Tonight is different, as we have heard for some bizarre reason,
:44:48. > :44:55.Charlotte Green, radio royalty is being allowed to hang up her crown.
:44:55. > :45:04.We bow down at her feet, take it away Charlotte. You have been
:45:04. > :45:07.catching, Kirsty Wark, she has blanked me in the canteen. Should I
:45:07. > :45:12.know these people on the credits. The film about Big Data was
:45:12. > :45:19.produced by Ian Lacy, well, I say produced. Some pictures were
:45:19. > :45:23.brought to you, despite Mike Kacey, Bea Games, and Philip Clarkson. Is
:45:23. > :45:29.there much more of this?? The planning team were Sam and Zara,
:45:29. > :45:36.this stuff is planned? Unit manager was Rebecca Lavender, she handles
:45:37. > :45:41.the money, he need to see her. The programme producer was KavitaPura.