:00:15. > :00:21.These are the lucky ones, survivors of the kidnap and of an ambitious
:00:21. > :00:24.military rescue in The Sahara. won't feel 100% happy until I'm in
:00:24. > :00:31.the UK and see my family. Then I will be happy. But up to 30 are
:00:31. > :00:36.still unaccounted for, a third of them Britons. Today, as kit
:00:36. > :00:40.napeders demanded their ranson, the Prime Minister laid bare the
:00:40. > :00:48.gravity of the threat. We face large and extension terrorist
:00:48. > :00:54.threat from a group of extremists, based in different parts of the
:00:54. > :00:58.world who want to damage our interests and way of life. We will
:00:58. > :01:04.discuss this and how we are prepared to meet it. Europe is
:01:04. > :01:08.trying to tie us up with regulation and the competitive edge we had
:01:08. > :01:11.will be gone. It is 40 years since we had a say on Europe, is it time
:01:11. > :01:20.for the politicians to stop talking and the rest of the country to
:01:20. > :01:23.start. Good evening, the news from Algeria
:01:23. > :01:28.is bad tonight, but not, it seems, as bad as the British Government
:01:28. > :01:32.had first believed. The original number of Britons unaccounted for
:01:32. > :01:36.stood at 30 last night t now looks to be closer to ten. After a
:01:36. > :01:41.terrorist take that plunged many of the world's capital's into crisis
:01:41. > :01:44.mode, dozens of foreign nationals still missing or being held at the
:01:44. > :01:48.Saharan gas plant. Today the Algerian Government defended its
:01:48. > :01:52.unilateral military operation, as the true scale of the attempted
:01:52. > :01:55.rescue mission became clear. It claimed 650 hostages had been freed,
:01:55. > :01:58.the vast majority of whom were Algerian. Tonight, as the Prime
:01:58. > :02:05.Minister talked of the growing threat in ungoverned places, we ask
:02:05. > :02:11.how much of this region is in trouble.
:02:11. > :02:15.Three days into the crisis at the sprawling gas plant, deep in
:02:15. > :02:23.Algerian desert, it is still hard to piece together the sequence of
:02:23. > :02:28.events. It is not clear if the hostage takers, Katibat
:02:28. > :02:31.Moulathamine were in the main plant or the residential complex. On the
:02:31. > :02:36.first day of the siege they demanded safe passage out with the
:02:36. > :02:40.hostages, the Algerians said no. A hostage were Belfast, who later
:02:40. > :02:44.escaped, phoned journalists, possibly under duress, to say the
:02:44. > :02:48.Algerian army had already opened fire on the complex. The situation
:02:48. > :02:50.is really deteriorating, we have contacted all the respective
:02:50. > :02:55.embassies from different nationalties, to have the military
:02:55. > :02:58.withdrew, the message doesn't seem to be getting through to the
:02:58. > :03:03.military, because just up until recently until ten minutes ago they
:03:03. > :03:07.were firing into the camp. It was yesterday the Algerian Government
:03:08. > :03:11.told Downing Street it had to act immediately. It is not clear what
:03:11. > :03:15.triggered the subsequent assault, either the Algerian army first
:03:15. > :03:17.stormed the residential complex, or the fighting started when the
:03:17. > :03:22.kidnappeders tried to move their hostages, in five jeeps. Their
:03:22. > :03:25.prisoners were bound, gagged, and had explosives round their necks.
:03:25. > :03:29.Certainly those vehicles were attacked by helicopter gunships, it
:03:29. > :03:34.is thought three were destroyed, one blew itself up. Some passengers
:03:34. > :03:39.escaped from the fifth. The remaining militants, and some
:03:39. > :03:43.hostages are now said to be holed up in the main gas treatment plant.
:03:43. > :03:46.With the crisis still unresolved, the Prime Minister made clear today
:03:46. > :03:50.his frustration at the way the Algerian operation began. During
:03:50. > :03:54.the course of Thursday morning, the Algerian forces mounted an
:03:54. > :03:58.operation. Mr Speaker, we were not informed of this in advance, I was
:03:58. > :04:01.told by the Algerian Prime Minister while it was taking place. He said
:04:01. > :04:05.that the terrorists had tried to flee, that they judged there to be
:04:05. > :04:08.an immediate threat to the lives of the hostages, and had felt obliged
:04:08. > :04:13.to respond. When I spoke to the Algerian Prime Minister, later last
:04:13. > :04:17.night, he told me that this first operation was complete, but this is
:04:17. > :04:22.a large and complex site, and they are still pursuing terrorists, and
:04:22. > :04:26.possibly some of the hostages in other areas of the site. Algeria's
:04:26. > :04:29.a country where oil and gas facilities have been largely safe
:04:29. > :04:35.until now, for the global hydrocarbon industry, this has been
:04:35. > :04:38.a big shock. It did looks a if Algeria was modernising, becoming
:04:38. > :04:42.more stable, some what more secular, and not a place where
:04:42. > :04:47.fundamentalism was going to take hold. The companies have been able
:04:47. > :04:51.to work there very successfully. They will now be surprised that
:04:51. > :04:56.this sort of incident can occur there. They will be looking very
:04:56. > :05:03.carefully, and they will be reassessing the balance of risk and
:05:03. > :05:08.reward. The industry does not like to put staff at risk, and very
:05:08. > :05:11.rarely does. This suggests there is a new situation in the region.
:05:11. > :05:16.of course, Islamist militants in North Africa don't just threaten
:05:16. > :05:20.western interests and personnel in the region, they pose a terrorist
:05:20. > :05:25.risk to Europe itself. The terrible events of this week have woken us
:05:25. > :05:31.up to a danger long growing, but long underestimated in North Africa.
:05:31. > :05:34.The question now, how can the west most effectively engage with the
:05:34. > :05:44.region, economically, diplomatically, militarily, to make
:05:44. > :05:45.
:05:45. > :05:47.it safer for its own people and for or is it better for Africans to
:05:47. > :05:51.deal with African problems. The region is a patchwork of states,
:05:51. > :05:56.with varying attitudes to the west, and varying degrees of stability.
:05:56. > :05:59.In Algeria, where this tragedy has unfolded, the military retains huge
:05:59. > :06:03.political power. Its rulers have kept out of the Arab Spring, and
:06:03. > :06:08.they have only recently mended relations with France, after a long
:06:08. > :06:12.chill. After years of fighting in Islamist insurgency in the 190s,
:06:13. > :06:17.they have shown this week they are still -- 1990s, they have shown
:06:17. > :06:22.this week they are still prepared to act ruthlessly without talking
:06:22. > :06:26.to the west. Libya, freed with the aid of British and French air
:06:26. > :06:32.strike, should be the west's most reliable partner in north Africa,
:06:32. > :06:37.it has failed to rein in Islamist militias, it can't stem the flow of
:06:37. > :06:41.militants or arms across its desert. Mali, now gulfed in the conflict
:06:41. > :06:44.that apparently triggered the hostage-taking, was once a
:06:44. > :06:48.promising democracy, but a military coup last year provoked chaos,
:06:48. > :06:52.America can't help, because it says the new regime is illegal. Nigeria
:06:52. > :06:56.should be coming to the rescue, it is spearheading the African force
:06:56. > :07:01.meant to bring peace to Mali, its troops are, in reality, badly
:07:01. > :07:05.trained, they are leaving behind another Islamist insurgency in
:07:05. > :07:08.Nigeria theself. But many think military solutions alone won't work.
:07:08. > :07:13.And that it is poverty and bad Government that are fuelling the
:07:13. > :07:17.growth in Islamist militancy. You have to understand what are the
:07:17. > :07:20.security risks we are facing now in The Sahara region of Africa.
:07:20. > :07:26.Furthermore, you have to understand that problem has to do with
:07:26. > :07:31.sovereignty. Which is the main issue. Poverty in the sense that
:07:31. > :07:35.people are facing a lot of frustration. There is a lot of food
:07:35. > :07:38.crises, the leadership aren't doing their job. Because of that
:07:38. > :07:43.frustration, people are allowing themselves to be involved in all
:07:43. > :07:50.sorts of things, including what today is termed "terrorism ".
:07:50. > :07:54.Meanwhile, with the hostage crisis still unresolved, Algerian TV
:07:54. > :07:59.showed tonight freed prisoners returning home. The gendarmes kept
:07:59. > :08:03.us safe and away from the bad guys. REPORTER: How do you feel? I never
:08:03. > :08:07.felt any danger, to be honest. they had criticism of the rescue
:08:07. > :08:15.operation, it wasn't broadcast. But in the days ahead, the rest of the
:08:15. > :08:19.world will be analysing exactly what went wrong. We will speak to
:08:19. > :08:22.our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban, who is here now. How much clearer
:08:22. > :08:28.are we now about the people behind this and what they are really
:08:28. > :08:33.trying to achieve? Even yesterday, some people were still putting this
:08:33. > :08:37.in the same category of some of the previous kidnappings, only three or
:08:37. > :08:41.six individuals, much smaller in scale, and, of course, the all
:08:41. > :08:46.goreian Government had denounced this group -- the Algerian
:08:46. > :08:50.Government had denounced this group as cigarette smuggling bed bow wins,
:08:50. > :08:54.what is -- Bedouins. What is clearer after the reports emerged
:08:54. > :08:57.what happened, is this was conceived as a spectacular, perhaps,
:08:57. > :09:04.deliberately to put them on the international Jihadist map. You
:09:04. > :09:09.look at the scale of the target they selected. More than 700
:09:09. > :09:13.workers there, even when you win know out the Algerian, and 130
:09:13. > :09:16.foreigners, they went in there with 35 people, on a site covering many
:09:16. > :09:20.miles. How could they really hope to have controlled all those people,
:09:20. > :09:26.or got them away from there to some safer place. Perhaps it was always
:09:26. > :09:30.conceived that it might turn into a last stand, a suicide mission.
:09:30. > :09:34.longer planning than intervention in Mali would suggest? Quite
:09:34. > :09:38.possibly. With these broader aims. The demands made for the release of
:09:38. > :09:41.a woman in Pakistan, and the Egyptian cleric held for the past
:09:41. > :09:49.20 years in America over the original attempt to bomb the World
:09:50. > :09:58.Trade Center, if you like, Jihadist icons, not people narrowly related
:09:58. > :10:01.to the Sahara or the other people, look to go the wider Jihadist
:10:01. > :10:06.movement. Also reports from the freed hostages, that these people
:10:06. > :10:09.who went in there, around 35 gunmen were not just Algerian, they came
:10:09. > :10:11.from several different countries, one of them was described of
:10:11. > :10:15.speaking French of a standard of someone who had grown newspaper
:10:15. > :10:20.France. Evidence too of a wider Jihadist involvement in what they
:10:20. > :10:24.tried to do. What do you make of the diplomacy involved in this.
:10:24. > :10:29.Yesterday all the reports coming out suggested that David Cameron
:10:29. > :10:32.was pretty angry at the way this had been conducted unilaterally,
:10:32. > :10:37.today something much more empathetic to the Algerian
:10:37. > :10:41.Government, and much more gentle, in terms it of the criticism.
:10:41. > :10:44.Because we're going to be in this for a long time, possibly? Some
:10:44. > :10:48.people are still unaccounted for, there are still believed to be some
:10:48. > :10:52.hostages in the gas plant, it is an on going situation, not time to
:10:53. > :10:57.have public recriminations. And I think, perhaps, a more sober
:10:57. > :11:01.appreciation of what kind of group that the Algerians actually had to
:11:01. > :11:05.deal with. Britain was critical, the Japanese were critical. But
:11:05. > :11:08.some other countries have been quite robust in defence of what the
:11:08. > :11:12.Algerians have done. Hillary Clinton, the US Secretary of State,
:11:12. > :11:16.defending them today, and say let's remember who the terrorists are in
:11:16. > :11:19.this situation. The French Interior Minister, also, defending robust
:11:19. > :11:23.action, and urging people not to criticise the Algerians for what
:11:23. > :11:27.they have done. So, they have had quite a bit of support too in this.
:11:27. > :11:31.And too early to talk about the sort of lessons learned, but it has
:11:31. > :11:37.woken everyone up to this region, hasn't it? It has, because if they
:11:37. > :11:42.are going to go for this sort of spectacular, there are other FA
:11:42. > :11:48.sill dotted around the Sahara, from Algeria to Libya. Major facilities,
:11:48. > :11:50.if they are going to take on this kind of target, 98% of Algeria's
:11:50. > :11:55.foreign exchange revenue comes through this industry. They could
:11:55. > :11:59.have a major economic impact, many of the multinationals like BP will
:11:59. > :12:03.have to question the way they operate in the countries. And it
:12:03. > :12:07.has suddenly raised the whole thing several notches up, the
:12:07. > :12:11.international security list of concerns. Thank you very much. To
:12:11. > :12:16.discuss the attack and its implications we're joined by Nigel
:12:16. > :12:22.Inkster, a deputy head of MI6, the energy analyst, Rachel Ziemba, and
:12:22. > :12:25.also by Dr Alia Brahimi, who is an expert on North Africa and the
:12:25. > :12:29.Middle East, from the London School of Economics. Welcome to you all.
:12:29. > :12:33.Thank you for coming in. I think one thing that we have all been
:12:33. > :12:39.shocked about, was that revelation of the scale. We thought we were
:12:39. > :12:44.talking about 30, 40, 50, and suddenly you get these numbers of
:12:44. > :12:50.Algerian hostages, you know, up to 570 freed, it puts the whole
:12:50. > :12:55.military operation in some kind of context? Yeah, I think that what
:12:55. > :12:58.the scale indicates is this has been in the works for quite some
:12:58. > :13:02.time. This is something they have pulled out of their pocket in order
:13:02. > :13:07.to symbolically chime in with the global Jihadist ideology, the
:13:07. > :13:11.French have just entered into Mali. This wasn't hatched as a direct
:13:11. > :13:16.response to the French intervention. But they saw on the wider regional
:13:16. > :13:21.landscape and the world stage, this was the right time to try to
:13:21. > :13:28.execute such an audacious, and as you indicated, absolutely extensive
:13:28. > :13:33.operation. Does that make it clearer in your mind, you probably
:13:33. > :13:38.have sense, from an MI6 perspective, of how an operation like this, to
:13:38. > :13:44.rescue, would be put together. Does that tell us more about why the
:13:44. > :13:47.Algerians went in as they did? think, each of these situations has
:13:47. > :13:50.its own particular characteristics, and it is very difficult to
:13:50. > :13:57.generalise what we are looking at here, I think, has already been
:13:57. > :14:06.said. It is a very large area which gives the hostage-taker as lot of
:14:06. > :14:10.leeway to move around. And I think any attempt to deal with a group
:14:10. > :14:15.like this, given the circumstances, is going to be very challenges. In
:14:15. > :14:19.an ideal world, you would want to constrict these people within clear
:14:19. > :14:22.boundaries, you would want to be able to set up some intelligence,
:14:22. > :14:25.collection, capabilities to monitor these people, have some sense of
:14:25. > :14:28.where they are, where the hostages are, where the areas of risk are.
:14:28. > :14:33.In a situation such as we are talking about, it is pretty obvious
:14:33. > :14:37.this is going to be very difficult to do at all, much less within a
:14:37. > :14:40.very compressed time scale. I guess naturally we are concentrating and
:14:40. > :14:45.our thoughts are with the British nationals, and we're talking about
:14:45. > :14:50.the foreign nationals, but, from the Algerian perspective, this has
:14:50. > :14:54.been successful, hasn't it, most of them, the vast majority got out?
:14:54. > :14:57.Thus far, yes. Obviously the Algerian security forces, Armed
:14:57. > :15:03.Forces, do not have the kind of specialist training and
:15:03. > :15:09.capabilities that the United States, the UK, France and one or two other
:15:09. > :15:17.European nations have. One has to ask ones self how easy it would be
:15:17. > :15:20.for, let's say, the -- one's self, how easy it would be for the
:15:20. > :15:22.British forces the SAS, to do better in this situation, or
:15:23. > :15:28.whether a Special Forces approach would work in this environment.
:15:28. > :15:34.What do you think, could you imagine the Algerian military
:15:34. > :15:38.working side-by-side with Special Forces from other countries?
:15:38. > :15:42.think Algeria definitically historically has jealousy guarded
:15:42. > :15:45.its sovereignty. It also feels it has the necessary expertise to deal
:15:45. > :15:52.with these people, that it has been confronting for many years now, on
:15:52. > :15:55.its own terrain. So I think it probably was quite convinced that
:15:55. > :15:59.it was worth actually trying to go it alone in the first instance. I
:15:59. > :16:03.think going forward, that whole relationship is going to have to be
:16:03. > :16:07.reviewed, if indeed foreign personnel are going to remain in
:16:07. > :16:10.Algeria, working in the oil and gas sector, and some of that
:16:10. > :16:13.sovereignty will have to be conceded and whether that will take
:16:13. > :16:17.the form of private security companies, I don't know. But this
:16:17. > :16:22.threat is definitely on the rise. The response has to match it.
:16:22. > :16:25.Rachel Ziemba what will that mean now? Will the multinationals, who
:16:25. > :16:29.are already talking about evacuating their staff to safety
:16:29. > :16:32.want to carry on working in these places? Sure, I think they are
:16:32. > :16:36.already re-thinking, to go back to your previous point on the
:16:36. > :16:40.Algerians looking fairly well out of it t I think on a broader
:16:40. > :16:44.context this is a major hit too, what the overall policy of the
:16:44. > :16:48.Algerian Government has been. Not only in creating and maintaining
:16:48. > :16:54.the security state, but also in putting all of this security effort
:16:55. > :16:58.into the energy sector. The bulk of it. That was what this message was
:16:58. > :17:02.about? It was possibly not about the people first, it was about the
:17:02. > :17:07.site itself, do you think? I think also just the message of that.
:17:07. > :17:13.think to get to the broader point, obviously already the foreign
:17:13. > :17:16.companies are re-thinking what they are -- what their role will be. It
:17:16. > :17:19.is particularly a concern for any future investment that Algeria
:17:19. > :17:23.might want to attract. They are very much trying to get more
:17:23. > :17:26.investment, unconventional fuels. This is just another reason why
:17:26. > :17:29.foreign companies might give Algeria a wide berth, go to places
:17:29. > :17:33.that are easier to operate in on a business environment and security
:17:33. > :17:40.basis. Of course, we have to raise the question, what if there are
:17:40. > :17:42.more takes like this, will this affect supplies. Are these the
:17:42. > :17:48.unintended consequences of the end of the Colonel Gaddafi rule, is
:17:48. > :17:53.this what we didn't know about? I think this is one of the unintended
:17:53. > :17:57.consequences. This whole situation has been brewing for a long time.
:17:57. > :18:02.It has just maintained itself below the radar screen, but all of a
:18:02. > :18:08.sudden this massive influx of former Gaddafi mercenaries, plus
:18:08. > :18:13.their weapons. Plus the money? of course, money. Which is what?
:18:13. > :18:18.Saudi money now? The money from these groups comes from a lot of
:18:19. > :18:23.different sources. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreg around 2008/09 was
:18:23. > :18:26.in a very powerless state, then they managed to cash in a lot of
:18:26. > :18:30.money from ranson payments from various western Governments, and
:18:30. > :18:34.they were in business again. Since then they have been raising money
:18:34. > :18:42.from various forms of smuggling, continued Rannellssome payments,
:18:42. > :18:45.some degree of outside fansing -- ranson payments, some degree of
:18:45. > :18:48.outside financing. They are quite wealthy. This is the soft
:18:48. > :18:52.underbelly of Europe, the place that will become the breeding
:18:52. > :18:57.ground for militants that we haven't really paid attention to.
:18:57. > :19:01.Is that how you see it? As Nigel said, events have really
:19:01. > :19:05.accelerated, it has all happened very quickly. If it isn't already
:19:05. > :19:10.seen that way, it will come to be seen that way. What you have is not
:19:10. > :19:16.just the fact that the downfall of Gaddafi has had this collateral
:19:16. > :19:19.damage in Mali, but you have these militant groups forming alliances,
:19:19. > :19:23.this growing Jihadi global consciousness among previously
:19:23. > :19:26.localised and ineffectual groups. They are all sort of coming
:19:26. > :19:33.together. That intellectual and ideolgical space has been matched
:19:33. > :19:37.with a ter Toryal space suddenly in northern mal-- territorial space
:19:37. > :19:41.suddenly in northern Mali. There are training camps there, I don't
:19:41. > :19:44.think the French are exaggerating the threat when they say we have to
:19:44. > :19:47.re-think this. It is a very dangerous position. Where does it
:19:47. > :19:50.leave the French position or any western position, if the French
:19:50. > :19:55.have boots on the ground, could this be their Iraq, somewhere they
:19:55. > :20:00.are going to be for a long time? would be hesitant to compare it to
:20:00. > :20:04.any specific other example. I think the issue here is whether it is
:20:04. > :20:08.French, and we are starting to have other NATO members have, if not
:20:09. > :20:13.boots on the glound, but support operations, they -- ground, but
:20:13. > :20:19.support operations, they could get dragged in, the Canadians, the
:20:19. > :20:23.British to some extent. The big issue this is not going to be an
:20:23. > :20:28.easy fight or solved militarily, there will be economic elements to
:20:28. > :20:33.this. This is a point where, speaking especially about for
:20:33. > :20:37.example Algeria and Libya, this is a dynamic where Europe is in a
:20:37. > :20:43.situation where because of the economic situation within Europe,
:20:43. > :20:49.there is even less capacity both militarily, but also from an
:20:49. > :20:54.economic basis. It is much closer, a three-hour flight. Did you hear
:20:54. > :21:02.anything in what David Cameron said today that suggested this is now
:21:02. > :21:06.our focus for military intervention, or at least security? His reference
:21:07. > :21:10.to an existential threat was very interesting. I think it was
:21:10. > :21:14.slightly worrying, in the sense that it is obviously in the
:21:14. > :21:18.interests of these groups, to aggregate up their cause into
:21:18. > :21:25.something that is greater than the sum of the parts. I think we need
:21:25. > :21:29.to be wary about playing this game any more than we need to. Having
:21:29. > :21:32.said that, I think the honest answer is, yes, we probably are
:21:32. > :21:37.going to need to be more involved, I think there is going to be a lot
:21:37. > :21:41.of work needed to be done in capacity building for local
:21:41. > :21:45.regional forces, rather perhaps than direct military involvement by
:21:45. > :21:50.countries like the UK, but there is a lot that can be done that needs
:21:50. > :21:53.to be done to bring local African capabilities up to where they need
:21:53. > :21:57.to be to begin to deal with this threat. This will take a lot of
:21:57. > :22:01.time. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much for coming in.
:22:01. > :22:04.Ask people what they want out of Europe, holidays aside, and many
:22:04. > :22:07.will offer you a fairly visceral view. The polls on British
:22:07. > :22:10.membership of the EU have changed little over 40 years, the country
:22:10. > :22:14.roughly splits in half. Tonight we step away from the politicians and
:22:14. > :22:24.ask those who work in health, haulage, small businesses, how the
:22:24. > :22:28.EU rules have changed their lives. 40 years ago this month, we joined
:22:28. > :22:32.what was then called the Common Market. That, of course, has
:22:32. > :22:37.evolved into the EU. It now does far more in our lives than the
:22:37. > :22:41.trading group we signed up to. Each of us has a different story to tell
:22:41. > :22:46.about Europe, but one thing to note from polling evidence, even if the
:22:46. > :22:50.politicians get convulsed by periodic euro-spasams, the public
:22:50. > :22:54.is pretty constant. We have been tracking whether people want to
:22:54. > :22:58.leave Europe or stay in it in the EU, since 1977, what is interesting
:22:58. > :23:02.is that the figures in our latest survey, just at the end of last
:23:02. > :23:06.year, had 48% want to go leave, 44% wanting to stay in. Those figures
:23:06. > :23:10.are very, very close, one or two percentage points away from how
:23:10. > :23:14.people felt in 1977. If you didn't do any polls between that period
:23:14. > :23:19.you would say nothing much had changed. But one thing that has
:23:20. > :23:23.changed, for some people, Europe has made a huge impact on their
:23:23. > :23:27.lives. For junior doctors, for example, the European Working Time
:23:27. > :23:30.Directive has limited their hours, they can only work 48 a week, that
:23:30. > :23:34.includes on-call time. They are understandably keen to keep this
:23:34. > :23:38.protection. I think bringing down doctors' hours has been beneficial,
:23:38. > :23:41.I think people who are tired make mistake, doctors who are tired make
:23:41. > :23:45.mistakes with patients, that is something we have managed to avoid
:23:45. > :23:47.and improve. That has led to patient safety improvements.
:23:47. > :23:52.Ripping up the European Working Time Directive would be a mistake,
:23:52. > :23:56.in your view? I think if we removed EWTD we would have to replace it
:23:57. > :24:00.with something just as important to maintain safety for patients and
:24:00. > :24:04.for doctors. Clearly junior doctors think Europe has been great, but
:24:04. > :24:07.has had been great for the rest of us, for patients, who receive NHS
:24:08. > :24:12.care, for the tax-payers who have to pay for it. There is another
:24:12. > :24:17.view, here at the Royal College of Surgeons, they think it has been a
:24:17. > :24:21.disaster. The problem with the European working time directive for
:24:21. > :24:25.surgical training is the rigid working hours we experience,
:24:25. > :24:29.patients kb can't be followed through in the same way as
:24:29. > :24:33.previously. They are handed over between teams, we think it is a
:24:33. > :24:37.problem for patient safety. We are not getting the same levels of
:24:37. > :24:40.experience by following the patients through their pathway in
:24:40. > :24:45.surgery. Another group keen to see renegotiation of the European
:24:45. > :24:50.regulations is the haulage industry. Foreign lorries fill up their tangs
:24:50. > :24:54.with cheaper diesel bought abroad and undercut British firms. The
:24:54. > :25:01.Government is bringing in a new charge on such lorries, �10 day,
:25:01. > :25:06.because of the EU rules the charge has to go on to British lorries too.
:25:06. > :25:11.It is said they won't lose out because they pay lower excise duty
:25:11. > :25:16.to balance it out. More complexity, the hauliers say �10 is too little
:25:16. > :25:19.to make things fair. They have enough fuel to last all week, and
:25:19. > :25:24.because the rules are relaxed about what they can and can't do inside
:25:24. > :25:29.the UK. They can pick up a load in Manchester take it to Birmingham,
:25:29. > :25:34.pick up one from Birmingham and take it to Cardiff and take it out
:25:34. > :25:38.of the country. They can now work in the UK at far cheaper rates than
:25:38. > :25:42.the UK haulier because they have bought the fuel abroad at 25p a
:25:42. > :25:46.litre less, that is decimating the industry. And whilst there are
:25:46. > :25:51.plenty of businesses who say that Europe has been great for them,
:25:51. > :25:55.with access to half a billion consumers across the continent, for
:25:55. > :26:00.some smaller concerns that trade exclusively in the UK, well, you
:26:00. > :26:03.sometimes get a different story. For me it is an absolute nightmare,
:26:03. > :26:07.when you get more and more legislation. The great thing about
:26:07. > :26:10.running a small business, or relatively small business is that
:26:10. > :26:14.ability to be able to think on your feet and move fast what Europe is
:26:14. > :26:18.doing is trying to tie us up with more legislation, the likes of
:26:18. > :26:21.which will slow us down, and that competitive edge we once had is
:26:21. > :26:25.finished. For me, we don't need another layer of middle management,
:26:25. > :26:28.we have one, we have our politician, we don't need another layer of
:26:28. > :26:31.management, I'm sorry. A little before that the speaker had said,
:26:31. > :26:35.this was before the vote was announced, that he anticipated
:26:35. > :26:38.there would be a good deal of noise and celebration. We entered the
:26:38. > :26:43.Common Market because of a vote in parliament, we stayed in because of
:26:43. > :26:47.a referendum two years later. In about two years time we may have
:26:47. > :26:56.another referendum. But this time, we will have far more experience to
:26:56. > :27:03.vote on. Review is here on BBC Two next.
:27:03. > :27:07.Tonight we're soaked in blood after watching Quentin Tarantino's
:27:07. > :27:12.typically gory Django Unchained, the Vikings have returned to
:27:12. > :27:15.Scotland, this time bringing treasure, it turns out they weren't
:27:15. > :27:19.quite as bloodthirsty as you might have thought. Prime Minister Prime
:27:19. > :27:24.Minister is back on the screens, ready to tackle the coalition. We
:27:24. > :27:27.have tales of teenage trauma on the screen and the page. Join me
:27:27. > :27:31.Natalie Haynes, Denise Mina, and John Sergeant in just a minute.
:27:31. > :27:41.Before we go I will take you through the front pages of
:27:41. > :27:41.
:27:41. > :28:51.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 70 seconds
:28:51. > :28:56.That's all from us this evening, we wish you fun in the snow, if that