:00:13. > :00:17.Tonight, after the could have fips and the wreckage of the Algerian
:00:17. > :00:20.hostage crisis, the Prime Minister sets out his plan for fighting
:00:20. > :00:25.international terrorism. More than ever this evolving threat demands
:00:25. > :00:29.an international response. It must be one that is tough, intelligent,
:00:29. > :00:34.patient, and based on strong international partnerships.
:00:34. > :00:38.It sounded like an important change of strategy, but what will it
:00:38. > :00:43.amount to in practice? We will hear from diplomats, soldiers and
:00:43. > :00:48.analysts whether Africa is the new frontline in an endless campaign.
:00:48. > :00:52.From relatives mourning those they loved. But we actually had to find
:00:52. > :00:58.out for ourselves, we were not given any official information. It
:00:58. > :01:04.was through Facebook of all things that we found out of Kenny's demise.
:01:04. > :01:07.We are in Mali, on the streets of newly-liberated Diabaly.
:01:07. > :01:10.TRANSLATION: We heard the helicopters, so did the rebels,
:01:10. > :01:15.most of them ran to hide in the houses nearby, afterwards the
:01:15. > :01:20.rebels told us they just want to impose Sharia Law here. Plus, in
:01:20. > :01:24.Syria, where foren intervention is off the international agenda,
:01:24. > :01:34.devastation and apparent normality, just minutes away from each other
:01:34. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:46.in the city of Homs. The final death toll in the
:01:46. > :01:49.Algerian oil siege is unknown, it could be 48 dead, at least three
:01:49. > :01:55.British. The Prime Minister in a tone some found reminiscent of Tony
:01:55. > :01:58.Blair after 9/11, promised a long, hard fight and an intelligent
:01:58. > :02:02.political response. To the terrorist threat against British
:02:02. > :02:05.workers interests and allies. And what might that all mean, and with
:02:06. > :02:09.Barack Obama telling Americans on his Inaugration Day that a decade
:02:09. > :02:14.of war is now over, what kind of leadership can we now expect. We
:02:14. > :02:17.begin our coverage on the new frontline of the conflict on Mali,
:02:18. > :02:21.where French troops push back Islamist rebels from the town of
:02:21. > :02:24.Diabaly, the beginning of what could be a long and difficulty
:02:24. > :02:30.conflict. We report on a day of triumph for the French, and
:02:30. > :02:36.setbacks for the rebels. France takes another step deeper
:02:36. > :02:41.into this conflict. Crossing here into what was rebel-held territory
:02:41. > :02:44.in central Mali. We have come with them to the down of Diabaly,
:02:44. > :02:50.controlled until this weekend by Islamist militants, some may still
:02:50. > :02:56.be in the area. The French quickly begin to check
:02:56. > :03:01.the nearby houses. But the population seems relaxed now. And
:03:01. > :03:08.relieved. They are keen to show us the
:03:08. > :03:13.wreckage of their week-long ordeal. TRANSLATION: These are pick-up
:03:13. > :03:18.trucks, destroyed by French helicopters, two Jihadists were
:03:18. > :03:22.killed here. We find seven more charred vehicles nearby. They were
:03:22. > :03:29.hit with great precision, French Special Forces presumably helping
:03:29. > :03:34.to direct the air strikes. TRANSLATION: We heard the
:03:34. > :03:39.helicopters, so did the rebels, most of them ran to hide in the
:03:39. > :03:43.houses nearby. Afterwards the rebels told us they just want to
:03:43. > :03:51.impose Sharia Law here. What do you think of Sharia Law? TRANSLATION:
:03:51. > :03:57.We don't want it. It doesn't suit us here. The Islamists chose to
:03:57. > :04:02.attack this town for a reason. This is it, the army garrison, packed
:04:02. > :04:07.with weapons, and not nearly as well guarded as you might expect.
:04:07. > :04:11.The rebels, some suggest more than 100 of them, seized the town in a
:04:11. > :04:15.day. The Islamists have left now, French air strikes clearly did
:04:15. > :04:19.their job. But before they left the rebels had every chance to loot
:04:19. > :04:25.this huge arsenal, giving them plenty of weapons for the war ahead.
:04:25. > :04:31.Right now the battle here is over, but Mali's hit-and-run insurgency
:04:31. > :04:36.may be just beginning. So who were the men who came to
:04:36. > :04:41.Diabaly? We found only one unidentifiable body. But more have
:04:41. > :04:45.been buried in town. The rebels' survivors withdrew across these
:04:45. > :04:51.fields heading east, according to the French. After a year of defeats,
:04:51. > :04:55.the mally army seems keen to chase after them now. TRANSLATION:
:04:55. > :04:59.around us it is fine, with the help of French troops it is reassuring.
:04:59. > :05:07.But we must search and search for more, there may still be a few
:05:07. > :05:11.pockets of enemy resistance. French politely insist they are
:05:11. > :05:14.keen to let Mali's demoralised army do its share of the fighting here.
:05:14. > :05:20.But from what we have learned in Diabaly today, it is clear this
:05:21. > :05:25.army is part of the problem. This soldier, Dioncounda Traore, has
:05:25. > :05:29.agreed to show me why, he's based at the garrison, and hid in town
:05:29. > :05:35.when it was overrun. The Islamists came to his home here
:05:35. > :05:40.to look for him, and trashed his belongings. He says some of the
:05:40. > :05:45.rebels are foreign Jihadist, but he knows others are former colleagues
:05:45. > :05:52.from his own army unit. Do you know the names of these people, would
:05:52. > :05:56.you recognise them? TRANSLATION: Yes, they defected last year when
:05:56. > :06:00.the Tuareg started their rebellion. When they came back last week they
:06:00. > :06:07.were Islamist, I think they are just after money. People believe
:06:08. > :06:13.the rebels are rich. Outside another soldier confirmed the story.
:06:13. > :06:17.TRANSLATION: Yes, many of our comrades became our enemies, now we
:06:17. > :06:20.will hunt them down and kill them all.
:06:20. > :06:23.The threat posed by foreign Islamist militants is real here,
:06:23. > :06:28.but the fact that some of the men who appear to have attacked this
:06:28. > :06:33.town were actually former members of the Mali army is a reminder of
:06:33. > :06:39.how many of this country's problems are home-grown.
:06:39. > :06:45.No simple solutions here, then, for Mali's complex mercury rebellion.
:06:45. > :06:51.-- murky rebellion. I'm joined now by the editor of the
:06:51. > :06:56.BBC of a frik ka service, which broadcasts too in French to Africa.
:06:56. > :07:00.Can Mali actually be stablised, do you think? That is the difficult
:07:00. > :07:05.and complex question to answer now. What the French and the mally army,
:07:05. > :07:09.and later on the west African troops, will be doing, is to at
:07:09. > :07:16.least secure the south. So far that is what they are doing, the north
:07:16. > :07:20.is still under the control of the insurgent s, the Islamist, part of
:07:20. > :07:26.it. The other answer is political, if you go south of Mali where there
:07:26. > :07:29.is a President, this President is really fragile in his ruling. It is
:07:29. > :07:35.an interim President, put there by the west African leaders, because
:07:35. > :07:41.there was a coup in March, right before the democratic elections,
:07:41. > :07:48.and then you have the north issues, which are not just the Islamist
:07:49. > :07:55.insurgent issue, it is a Tuareg issue, it is a Malian issue. Do the
:07:55. > :08:00.mallyian Tuareg have pushed out the Islamist insurgents to be -- will
:08:00. > :08:06.the mallyian army who have pushed out the Islamist terrorists be able
:08:06. > :08:11.to solve the Tuareg issue, which is more complicated than the Islamist
:08:11. > :08:15.issue. I wonder what is at stake for the neighbours, I don't just
:08:15. > :08:20.mean Algeria and Morocco, but those to the south, it must be a
:08:20. > :08:24.difficult situation for awful them? That is why the west African army
:08:24. > :08:28.wanted to go in. They can't go in, because it is complicated. If you
:08:29. > :08:33.take the Tuareg issue, it is not only Mali, it is also Moritania,
:08:33. > :08:38.which doesn't want to be involved at all in the mally operation. Then
:08:38. > :08:44.you have Niger, which has its own Tuareg problems, where they were
:08:44. > :08:54.able there to sort out the issues there. Then you have all the small
:08:54. > :08:55.
:08:55. > :09:00.countries, which are all stable but in a fragile state. They are all
:09:00. > :09:06.worried? About the Islamist insurgents, if you push them out of
:09:06. > :09:09.Mali they might find somewhere else in there, which is as vast as the
:09:09. > :09:14.European continent, where will they go next? Because Algeria is
:09:14. > :09:19.blocking its border, then it would be difficult for other countries by
:09:19. > :09:24.themselves to secure their own desert area. We will pick up some
:09:24. > :09:28.of those issues in a moment. Relatives of those missing after
:09:28. > :09:33.terrorists stormed the gas plant in Algeria have spent an agonising few
:09:33. > :09:41.days trying to get information, and sadly, for some, their worst fears
:09:41. > :09:46.have been realised. The White Tiger family found out about their son
:09:47. > :09:51.and brother's death through Facebook. We met up and asked about
:09:51. > :09:59.the circumstances of finding out about their brother's killing.
:10:00. > :10:03.know now what's happened to Kenny, and we actually had to find out for
:10:03. > :10:08.our selves, we were not given any official information. It was
:10:08. > :10:11.through Facebook, of all things, that we found south of Kenny's
:10:11. > :10:17.demise. It was my daughter found it on
:10:17. > :10:25.Facebook, a message from an Algerian co-worker. So, if you like
:10:25. > :10:30.a, an unofficial confirmation, you didn't get anything official from
:10:30. > :10:37.the authorities? The police came last night and informed us that
:10:37. > :10:42.what was on Facebook was true, that Kenny had been, he was executed.
:10:42. > :10:45.Can I say before we go on, I'm very sorry for your loss, and I'm very
:10:45. > :10:51.grateful for you speaking to us in these circumstances. Can I ask you
:10:51. > :10:57.what you feel about the way that the situation was handled in
:10:57. > :11:03.Algeria? Well, it is just the way life is, I'm afraid. I don't hold
:11:03. > :11:06.any grudges against Algeria and the army or anything, that's the way
:11:06. > :11:14.they work. That's their system. They weren't bothered about the
:11:14. > :11:19.hostages as such, they just wanted to get the camp cleared of all the
:11:19. > :11:23.terrorists. That was the main objective. As far as I could see.
:11:23. > :11:28.Had Kenny been working out there for some time? It must be about
:11:28. > :11:34.five years, I think, he has been working in Algeria. And in that
:11:34. > :11:37.time had he expressed any concerns about safety, about how their
:11:37. > :11:42.safety was, and how they were protected out there? That sort of
:11:42. > :11:46.thing never bothered Kenny. He has worked all over the world, he just
:11:46. > :11:53.didn't think about it. So he was well used to working in difficult
:11:53. > :11:59.places, and trouble spots? Yes, more or less. He has worked all
:11:59. > :12:03.over Africa, Zambia, South Africa, Russia's been around. He knew what
:12:03. > :12:09.the game was all about. What was the job that he did? He was
:12:09. > :12:15.actually he went out there as a fitter to trade, with Babcock &
:12:15. > :12:19.Wilcox but worked himself up. His official title was planning manager,
:12:19. > :12:25.project manager. He was head hunted, he was obviously very good at his
:12:25. > :12:29.job, he was head hunted for a few jobs. In the light of what's
:12:29. > :12:33.happened, and we hear this morning that there is quite a high death
:12:33. > :12:37.toll amongst the hostages, what are your feelings about what needs to
:12:37. > :12:43.be done to protect men and women that are out there in similar
:12:43. > :12:46.circumstances in the future? honestly don't think you could do
:12:46. > :12:52.anything. Not any more than was done already. They had security
:12:52. > :12:58.guards, but you can't guard every installation all over the world,
:12:58. > :13:08.just because of these fanatics. If they are going to attack, they will
:13:08. > :13:09.
:13:09. > :13:13.do it, you know. What has happened in Algeria and Mali is all at the
:13:13. > :13:17.same time an international incident, a security to energy -- security
:13:17. > :13:21.threat to energy companies, and danger to local people, and a
:13:21. > :13:25.threat to Governments. With David Cameron promising a response that
:13:25. > :13:28.is tough, intelligent and patient, and based on international
:13:28. > :13:31.partnerships. We're going to assess some of the options open to Mr
:13:31. > :13:35.Cameron and other Government leaders. It sounds like it is a
:13:35. > :13:39.very big change for Mr Cameron, is it, in terms of strategy? You would
:13:39. > :13:43.certainly think so, from the statement he gave in the palace of
:13:43. > :13:49.Westminster today. He was quite explicit about a number of themes.
:13:49. > :13:53.You got a sense from him of a certain focus, or priority that was
:13:53. > :13:59.once really dominating our security considerations giving way to
:13:59. > :14:01.another. That was articulated quite clearly in the Commons. This attack
:14:01. > :14:06.underlines the threat that terrorist groups pose to the
:14:06. > :14:10.countries and peoples of that region, and to our citizens, our
:14:10. > :14:13.companies and our interests too. Four years ago the principal threat
:14:13. > :14:18.from Islamist extremism came from the Afghanistan and Pakistan region.
:14:18. > :14:22.A huge amount has been done to address and reduce the scale of
:14:22. > :14:26.that threat. Where as at one point three-quarters of the most serious
:14:26. > :14:31.terrorist plots against the UK had links to that region, today this
:14:31. > :14:36.has reduced to less than half. Listening to that, you could think
:14:36. > :14:40.that he was suggesting that as UK forces draw down in Afghanistan
:14:40. > :14:44.over the next year or year-and-a- half, the UK will increasingly be
:14:44. > :14:52.ready to put its shoulder to the wheel in North Africa? We heard
:14:52. > :14:55.from Brahimi a few moments ago, about what is at stake in Africa.
:14:55. > :15:00.Could Britain play a part in shaping the whole regional
:15:00. > :15:04.strategy? It could play a part. But there are all sorts of barriers to
:15:04. > :15:08.how extensive and influential a part it could play. This draw down
:15:08. > :15:11.in Afghanistan isn't happening quite as quickly as the ramping up
:15:11. > :15:15.you might want in North Africa if you were really going to put troops
:15:15. > :15:18.on the ground. That very point is clearly one of some sensitivity to
:15:18. > :15:22.Downing Street. They are not out to send hundreds of troops in there
:15:22. > :15:24.straight away. They are trying to work to build up relationships,
:15:24. > :15:28.diplomatic, intelligence, military- to-military, the sort of thing they
:15:28. > :15:32.have been doing in quite a few African countries. There are some
:15:32. > :15:36.really difficult challenges here. Most particularly, the attitudes of
:15:36. > :15:40.the host Government, the all goreian Government, we saw their
:15:40. > :15:44.attitude -- Algerian Government, we saw their attitude to those trying
:15:44. > :15:49.to get involved in the negotiating and political level in the crisis.
:15:49. > :15:54.They will be very reluctant to take in the outside forces, and France
:15:54. > :15:58.and others have stronger security ties with them. Libya, of course,
:15:58. > :16:02.NATO very involved there in overthrowing the Gaddafi regime,
:16:02. > :16:06.but they have been reluctant to accept military advisers from NATO
:16:06. > :16:12.countries. It is a delicate atmosphere operating there even, it
:16:12. > :16:17.would be hard for the UK to put its very limited resources, diplomatic,
:16:17. > :16:21.intelligence whatever into this sensitive scenario. Lots of legal
:16:21. > :16:25.potential difficulties too. On the intelligence side, the Algerian
:16:25. > :16:30.Government, the way it treats terrorist subjects, quite strict
:16:30. > :16:34.rules on what intelligence we could share with them. Where is the
:16:34. > :16:37.United States on this? The US appears ready to look at a great
:16:37. > :16:41.many international crises that develop now from the sidelines.
:16:41. > :16:45.President Obama was inaugurated today for his second term, and this
:16:45. > :16:50.sense of his focus so much being on the domestic, was quite clearly in
:16:50. > :16:55.the peach -- clear in the speech he gave at his inauguration. This
:16:55. > :17:03.generation of Americans has been tested by crises that steeled our
:17:03. > :17:09.resolve and proved our resilience. A decade of war is now ending. An
:17:09. > :17:13.economic recovery has begun. clearly he wants to keep the focus
:17:13. > :17:17.domestic, economic, social. He doesn't want to involve himself in
:17:17. > :17:21.new wars, we know that from the past year. That has implications
:17:21. > :17:26.for North Africa, it also has implications for Iran, and the
:17:26. > :17:29.world much more widely, siria. Potentially a very significant
:17:29. > :17:33.statement from Syria. Potentially a very significant statement from
:17:33. > :17:38.President Obama today. We have a former UK ambassador in Washington
:17:38. > :17:44.with us, we have the a former US Ambassador for the United Nations,
:17:44. > :17:50.we have an Algerian born political analyst, he advises companies that
:17:50. > :17:55.operate in the region. And the CEO of Keyhaven, who specialise in
:17:55. > :18:02.crisis management, former director of defence management in the MoD.
:18:02. > :18:08.Your roots are in the region, how serious do you think the issue s or
:18:08. > :18:11.is it anything less than banditry? It is a serious threat to the
:18:11. > :18:14.region and international security. You have a region that is
:18:14. > :18:18.increasingly unstable as a result of some of the power vacuums have
:18:18. > :18:24.taken place, or that are currently in place in Libya and northern Mali.
:18:24. > :18:28.You have terrorists, or Jihadi groups have been able to utilise
:18:28. > :18:34.this new safe haven, this vast territory that is uncontrolled, and
:18:34. > :18:37.poorly monitored, in terms of surveillance, by the states, and to
:18:37. > :18:43.utilise that, not only for financial gain through the drug
:18:43. > :18:49.trade, and through arms proliferation, but also through the
:18:49. > :18:54.type of techniques we have seen now in these kinds of hostage crises.
:18:54. > :18:57.You were also involved in the threat assessment business, we have
:18:57. > :19:02.heard everything from cigarette snugling, drug running, the arms
:19:02. > :19:05.business, to just making a profit out of hostages. It is difficult to
:19:05. > :19:12.distinguish that from what seems to be happening now, which we are also
:19:12. > :19:16.told there are links to the establishment of a Kalafate
:19:16. > :19:20.throughout north Africa. Is this a quantitatively different threat
:19:20. > :19:25.from just the banditry? It indicate the number of shared incentives,
:19:25. > :19:29.and what we will see is a kol alllessing and breaking apart of
:19:29. > :19:33.different movements. The analogy I would like to use is it is like a
:19:33. > :19:38.balloon, you squeeze it in one place and you get an expansion
:19:38. > :19:42.somewhere else. Going back to late 2001, the operation in Afghanistan,
:19:42. > :19:46.you had people seeking refuge in Pakistan and Yemen, you squeeze
:19:46. > :19:49.them in Yemen and then Somalia, that is getting better, and they go
:19:49. > :19:52.elsewhere. This is a concerted effort working with other
:19:52. > :19:56.Governments, if necessary behind the scenes. The incentives for the
:19:56. > :20:00.bad people are many, and the interests are many. Do you think
:20:00. > :20:05.there is an ideolgical underpinning to some of this? To some of this.
:20:05. > :20:09.To a certain extent. 0 these groups are using this narrative to --
:20:09. > :20:14.these groups are using the narrative to create a network in
:20:14. > :20:19.the region. They have been able to attract militants from Boko Haram,
:20:19. > :20:22.from Nigeria, a narrative that bring these groups to a shared
:20:23. > :20:30.interests. If this is such a big threat, shouldn't we have seen it
:20:30. > :20:34.coming? Absolutely. I think it was predictable as an outcome of the
:20:34. > :20:39.Libya vacuum. This is the underbelly of the Arab Spring. You
:20:39. > :20:43.are seeing a rise up, after the end of the Cold War, of all these
:20:43. > :20:46.tensions coming forward. The fact that the Tuaregs were heavily armed
:20:46. > :20:50.to protect Gaddafi, and then decided to go home, should have
:20:50. > :20:55.been a trigger point for stronger international intervention in the
:20:55. > :20:59.north to try to make sure that we nipped this in the bud. We were,
:20:59. > :21:04.the world was looking elsewhere, and really we have a triple tragedy
:21:04. > :21:12.going on, the Tuaregs moving in with arms, the Islamists taking
:21:12. > :21:16.over, and the Government being over thrown in Bamako, it is a perfect
:21:16. > :21:19.storm and the people of Mali pay the price. We heard President Obama
:21:19. > :21:24.making what was largely a big domestic speech on his Inaugration
:21:24. > :21:27.Day, I wondered if it was a case of the American administration, the
:21:27. > :21:33.British, tired of war in Afghanistan, not really wanting to
:21:33. > :21:39.know about this. If it was right under our noses? I wouldn't read
:21:39. > :21:43.too much into the lack of a long and foreign policy speech on an
:21:43. > :21:46.inaugural speech. It was a short speech, there was a few sentences
:21:46. > :21:49.about democracy throughout Africa and the need to make sure we
:21:49. > :21:53.address the problems there, and finish the war. We are tired of war,
:21:53. > :21:57.we have been at war for over ten years in Afghanistan, and finally
:21:57. > :22:01.got out of Iraq. The American people are very wary of it. No
:22:01. > :22:05.President in his inaugural will talk much about it. President Obama
:22:05. > :22:09.understands the need to make sure there is not another safe haven for
:22:09. > :22:13.Al-Qaeda in the heart of Africa. I think you will see a stronger
:22:13. > :22:17.action on this. But don't expect much in the big speeches. I think
:22:17. > :22:22.you will see him moving forward on many of these fronts. How serious
:22:22. > :22:25.do you view this, and is it serious enough that, despite the reluck
:22:25. > :22:29.tannance on the British Government's part, -- reluctance on
:22:29. > :22:32.the British Government's part, we will see boots on the ground at
:22:32. > :22:37.some point in the region? If there are going to be boots on the ground
:22:37. > :22:40.at some point, there must be a very clear military objective for the
:22:40. > :22:43.action. One of the things we have learned from Afghanistan, is troops
:22:44. > :22:47.without a clear political plan are a west of time. That is why we have
:22:47. > :22:55.not made the -- a waste of time. That is why we haven't made the
:22:55. > :23:00.progress in Afghanistan we would have liked to make. We had Iraq a
:23:00. > :23:05.Millerry -- military push and it led to the war of unintended
:23:05. > :23:08.consequences. What about the French? Is it just a short-term
:23:08. > :23:12.military operation to hold the line until the African troops turn up,
:23:12. > :23:16.or are they intending to create a political ring in which there can
:23:16. > :23:20.be some kind of negotiation between the Tuaregs in the north, who want
:23:20. > :23:23.independence, or autonomy, and the Government in the south. This is
:23:24. > :23:28.not yet clear, until these things are clear, you shouldn't even think
:23:28. > :23:37.of putting boots on the ground. That is, you put your finger on the
:23:37. > :23:41.nub of it. There are 2,000 French troops on the ground, you have
:23:41. > :23:46.boots on the ground. The French are going to find it very difficult to
:23:46. > :23:49.come in very late with very few troops. They have 2,000, they said
:23:49. > :23:55.maybe 4,000. So they are in there. I think it is going to get very
:23:55. > :24:01.messy. What should have happened is the US, France, the international
:24:01. > :24:06.community could have reinforced the mally Government to address the --
:24:06. > :24:11.Mali Government to address the Tuareg initial phases of the
:24:11. > :24:15.military and get immediately into negotiations. The Tuaregs have
:24:15. > :24:18.tired over decades from Bamako of more development in the north that
:24:18. > :24:23.have never come to fruition. What you have to have is the French who
:24:23. > :24:27.need help, the west Africans come in, there is not many capable west
:24:27. > :24:33.Africans they can fight, they can certainly help secure peace. It
:24:33. > :24:37.will eventually be turned over to a UN operation. Kprair this to the
:24:37. > :24:40.Ivory Coast, when -- compare this to the Ivory Coast when they had
:24:40. > :24:45.17,000 troops there and the French had more troops going in, it will
:24:45. > :24:48.be messy before it gets better. terms of the messiness, you talked
:24:48. > :24:50.about presumably having a negotiation between a Government in
:24:50. > :24:56.the mally capital and the taurs, except this is a Government that
:24:56. > :25:00.came to power because of military coup, and the one-eyed cigarette
:25:00. > :25:06.dialer who is responsible for this is not -- dealer who is responsible
:25:06. > :25:10.for this is not able to negotiate? This has as many layers as a club
:25:10. > :25:16.sandwich. There isn't a threat for the west, there are threats. What
:25:16. > :25:20.we faced in Algeria was a sovereign state with a capable military force
:25:20. > :25:24.and Special Forces has been against oil and gas installations where
:25:24. > :25:26.Brits are working who have been tragically killed, that was a
:25:26. > :25:30.specific British interest, go to Mali and you have a failed state.
:25:30. > :25:36.It is not clear they can be put back together again. The threat is
:25:36. > :25:40.different in Algeria from in Mali, from elsewhere in the countries.
:25:40. > :25:45.The one thing we have to watch out for, where there is another British
:25:45. > :25:51.interest, does it infect, more than you refer to, Nigeria? Can we talk
:25:51. > :25:57.about the options, particularly the military option right now. You have
:25:57. > :26:02.got 40 armed people, apparently, going to attack a remote plant,
:26:02. > :26:06.with 6600 civil -- 600 civilian workers under a good security
:26:06. > :26:09.apparatus, it is hard to see how you can protect these exposed
:26:10. > :26:13.plants from people who don't care how many they kill or how they die
:26:13. > :26:16.themselves? I agree, there is no such thing as perfect and complete
:26:16. > :26:19.protection. What all the different oil and gas interests will need to
:26:20. > :26:26.be reassured about is the continuing and ined effort to
:26:26. > :26:30.protect their people. In the short- term they can increase promises
:26:30. > :26:34.security, they can clampdown on people's movement, the engineers
:26:34. > :26:37.going to and fro. Come back to your point, if you have a really
:26:37. > :26:40.determined bunch of people who have planned the operation for some time,
:26:40. > :26:45.they have arms and weapons on their side, there is not much that can
:26:45. > :26:48.stand in their way. But, there is more which can be done. My own
:26:48. > :26:52.personal experience relates to some of the borders, physically the
:26:52. > :26:56.borders between the countries. I remember for instance, for example,
:26:56. > :27:00.two or three years ago on the border between Algeria and Libya,
:27:00. > :27:04.and going down to view a border crossing point, deep in The Sahara.
:27:04. > :27:09.What was interesting to me is the fact that place closed up at night.
:27:09. > :27:12.One could see hundreds of sets of footprints, illegal movement across
:27:12. > :27:18.the border. More can be done in a cheap and cheerful way. Not to
:27:18. > :27:22.solve the problem, but at least to bear down and make the borders less
:27:22. > :27:27.porous. I wondered whether the context of this is, is there an
:27:28. > :27:31.African solution to what is fundamentally an African problem?
:27:31. > :27:35.Ultimately the Africans are going to need to solve these problems.
:27:35. > :27:39.The problem is right now in the short-term crises, they don't have
:27:39. > :27:43.the military capacity to move. The UN has authorised 3,000 troops to
:27:43. > :27:47.go into northern Mali, recognising in the same resolution that they
:27:47. > :27:51.are not capable of doing so. To the hostage crisis in Algeria, first of
:27:51. > :27:55.all, our hearts go out to those who have lost their lives, it is a
:27:55. > :28:00.tragedy. But you are going to watch obviously heightened security
:28:00. > :28:04.around any kind of foreign oil installation. But you will watch,
:28:04. > :28:08.and the all goreians have a history of a counter punch on these kinds
:28:08. > :28:15.of things, they will go after many of these militants, it is likely to
:28:15. > :28:22.get blody. Ultimately you will have to have kiebd -- bloody, ultimately
:28:22. > :28:28.vul to have some kind of engagment on these issues. We know withhold
:28:28. > :28:34.hold, he went to Algeria and didn't apologise, quite, and said France
:28:34. > :28:37.had done some terrible things. And the UN mandate stipulated this was
:28:37. > :28:44.an African problem to be solved by Africans, revolving the situation
:28:44. > :28:48.was a job for them, and that they hadn't learned a single lesson. Is
:28:48. > :28:52.it a post colonial problem so it is difficult for outsiders to get
:28:52. > :28:55.involved? It depends who you are asking. One thing for sure, the UN
:28:55. > :29:03.mandate and the plan to give Africans the full control of the
:29:03. > :29:07.situation, and have them intervene in Mali, came too late. The delay,
:29:07. > :29:11.which the African force could only intervene in September, and said it
:29:11. > :29:16.could only intervene in September. No western powers stepped up to the
:29:16. > :29:21.plate, like France, for example, to facilitate their preparation for an
:29:21. > :29:26.operation. That delay gave these terror groups,s they Jihadi groups,
:29:26. > :29:31.the window and mandate they needed, to prepare -- these Jihadi groups,
:29:31. > :29:35.the window and mandate they needed to prepare for the assault on
:29:35. > :29:38.Bamako. One of the key things France should have done was put
:29:38. > :29:43.more power, and western states, more power in the hands of African
:29:43. > :29:47.state. What do you think of that? The trouble of this, I will go back
:29:47. > :29:51.on something that was said, you can empower the UN to authorise
:29:51. > :29:54.thousands of west African troops to come in and hold the line, but they
:29:54. > :29:58.actually aren't militarily capable and don't have the logistics to do
:29:58. > :30:01.it. Time and time again they show themselves want anything this
:30:01. > :30:05.respect. Doesn't that say to the French you have to do something now,
:30:05. > :30:08.your point is we have to figure out what we are doing there politically,
:30:08. > :30:13.presumably, as seen from the Elysee, this is something that can't wait
:30:13. > :30:18.and you have to get in? Ten or 15 years Agatha might have been an
:30:18. > :30:22.automatic response on the part of the French. I think at the moment
:30:22. > :30:26.budget cuts, plus colonial sensibilities make this a much more
:30:26. > :30:31.difficult thing for the French to do than it might have been a
:30:31. > :30:37.generation ago. That is one of the reasons you have this gap. Heaven
:30:37. > :30:41.knows, 2,500 French troops, what difference in the long-term will
:30:41. > :30:46.that make? I think the colonial problem you asked about a moment
:30:46. > :30:51.ago is an on going responsibility to clean up certain problems. You
:30:51. > :30:54.had Sierra Leone in the 1990s, the British went in there. You had most
:30:55. > :30:58.recently the French in the Ivory Coast, we do Liberia. And since the
:30:58. > :31:02.Africans are not yet capable of doing so, we are trying to train
:31:02. > :31:07.them and get them up to speed, but it is another 10-20 years away, we
:31:07. > :31:10.will always get called in. We wait too long to do it. In this case had
:31:10. > :31:15.we reinforced the Government and got them up the north, perhaps,
:31:15. > :31:22.this could have been nipped in the bud. But so long as there are these
:31:22. > :31:25.crises and the Africans are not capable of addressing them, the
:31:25. > :31:30.colonial challenge is it is hard to stand on the sidelines when you
:31:30. > :31:35.have a human tragedy. You will see this going on. They were asked to
:31:35. > :31:40.go in? They went in unilaterally. Do you see really room for
:31:40. > :31:43.negotiation there? We talked about negotiating and the problems of the
:31:43. > :31:47.Tuareg people and so on, but the actual people doing the killing, it
:31:47. > :31:50.seems quite difficult to understand how you would negotiate anything
:31:50. > :31:54.that they would want that you could possibly give them? A couple of
:31:55. > :31:59.things. Somebody who has put this pair of boots in the ground on a
:31:59. > :32:02.number of place, partly towards your point, Sir Christopher, the
:32:02. > :32:06.military on its own can never be a solution on its own. Point number
:32:06. > :32:11.two, to your point about the negotiation, yes, one must take a
:32:11. > :32:14.longer term stance. Whilst there are people who went be swayed there
:32:14. > :32:19.are people with different incentives and perhaps could see
:32:19. > :32:25.where power shifts and could reorientate themselves to a more
:32:25. > :32:28.benign way of living. This is not a totally homogeneous group, you have
:32:28. > :32:32.mandatory smugglers, you have Tuaregs who want autonomy or
:32:32. > :32:37.independence, you have the Jihadists moved by ideolgical moat
:32:37. > :32:43.vagues. The purpose of negotiation is to split off, to divide this
:32:43. > :32:49.coalition of groups. They don't have a lot instrinsically in common,
:32:49. > :32:55.and try to -- intrinsicly in common and try to do deals with them.
:32:55. > :32:59.Algeria pushed for that position early on to prefer the political
:32:59. > :33:03.solution and negotiate with the groups that distinguish themselves
:33:03. > :33:07.with others, and who had genuine grievances in the context of Mali,
:33:07. > :33:10.for example, to differentiate them from other groups operating from
:33:10. > :33:12.the 1990s in Algeria and elsewhere, with the Jihadi network. It is
:33:12. > :33:20.important to make that point, I think.
:33:20. > :33:25.Thank you all very much. To another significant part of this
:33:25. > :33:30.arc of instability, stretching across Afghanistan, Syria. Barack
:33:30. > :33:33.Obama's leadership, or some would say lack of it, has come under fire
:33:33. > :33:38.in Washington, including the Washington Post newspaper. There is
:33:38. > :33:44.no sign of direct action in that conflict, despite the daily
:33:44. > :33:49.killings and misery. Almost a year ago the Syrian forces began a
:33:49. > :33:52.sustained attack on Homs to drive out opposition fighters. We
:33:52. > :34:00.reported last year, and we have returned to find out how it has
:34:00. > :34:06.changed today. Some of the heaviest fighting of Syria's war happened
:34:06. > :34:09.here. This neighbourhood, Baba Amr, came to symbolise a brutal conflict.
:34:09. > :34:13.A ferocious Government offensive, after the opposition took up
:34:13. > :34:19.positions here, was an assault on an entire community. Now, nearly
:34:19. > :34:24.one year on, life is slowly returning to Baba Amr.
:34:24. > :34:34.Rubbish collectors are on the job. A small sign the Government is back
:34:34. > :34:39.
:34:39. > :34:49.on the street. That some families are starting to come home. I asked
:34:49. > :34:51.
:34:51. > :34:54.him how life was here? He said it couldn't be better.
:34:54. > :35:00.Stealing an anxious look at the soldiers escorting us.
:35:01. > :35:06.A repair shop is back in business. It is not much of a bicycle, but
:35:06. > :35:09.the man made it work. It is what life is like here.
:35:09. > :35:16.TRANSLATION: Services are very good, before life was more difficult. But
:35:16. > :35:24.now things are getting better day by day. It is still a fragile calm.
:35:24. > :35:27.But good enough for children to play hopscotch on the treat --
:35:27. > :35:33.street. Even they don't take notice when guns go off in the distance.
:35:33. > :35:43.It is part of their life now. Scenes like this make you wonder,
:35:43. > :35:45.
:35:45. > :35:55.what's it like to grow up here? The opposition is still present, still
:35:55. > :35:56.
:35:56. > :36:03.fighting in other parts of Homs. (gunfire) Even in areas closer to
:36:03. > :36:08.the city centre, it is like a ghost town. The battle for Homs isn't
:36:08. > :36:12.over. No-one's really winning, no- one's really closing. When we came
:36:12. > :36:18.here last spring this was no man's land, it still is. The Government
:36:18. > :36:23.on this side, this is the historic old city. It has been under siege
:36:23. > :36:27.for months. You can hear the crackle of gunfire right now.
:36:27. > :36:34.Opposition fighters lie down these lanes, but so do civilians, trapped
:36:34. > :36:39.in the middle. The old city has long been cherished by the people
:36:39. > :36:45.of Homs. Look at it now. We couldn't travel in, this video
:36:45. > :36:50.posted by activists on YouTube shows the toll a year-long siege
:36:50. > :36:57.has taken on Homs's heritage. And the people who still live here, in
:36:57. > :37:01.dire conditions. Aid agencies have been trying to get in for months.
:37:02. > :37:06.Just minutes away, it feels like a different city. Even hard to
:37:06. > :37:11.believe there is a war. Most of the people who live here back the
:37:11. > :37:20.Government. It is predominantly Alawite, the same sect as President
:37:20. > :37:23.Assad. Al-Mashei Pizzeria seems to be doing fine.
:37:23. > :37:30.The owner tells me in areas loyal to the Government, life is good.
:37:30. > :37:34.Even here, he says, they feel the effects of the war.
:37:34. > :37:37.TRANSLATION: Not a month goes by without me having to close for
:37:37. > :37:46.three or four days, either there is no gas, people aren't going out, or
:37:46. > :37:50.because of the rockets. And there's a place to complain. At
:37:50. > :37:55.the governor's office, local people air their grievances to the man in
:37:55. > :38:02.charge. This mantles the Governor of Several requests, the most
:38:02. > :38:10.important is bread, plus gas, fuel, water. It covers pretty well
:38:10. > :38:16.everything. The governor reassures them their needs will be met. Then
:38:16. > :38:21.it is my turn to ask questions. I put it to him that he's running a
:38:21. > :38:26.divided city? TRANSLATION: Can you judge the situation of Homs by
:38:26. > :38:30.looking at a few kilometres, a couple of neighbourhoods, Homs is a
:38:30. > :38:38.big province, like the size of Holland, if you couldn't visit one
:38:38. > :38:40.street, does that mean all of Homs is troubled? The areas that the
:38:40. > :38:44.streets where there is still trouble and fighters, what are you
:38:44. > :38:50.planning to do, are you going to push in there as well? As in you
:38:50. > :38:55.did in Baba Amr to clear the I can't remember? TRANSLATION:
:38:55. > :39:01.didn't do anything in Baba Amr. It wasn't us who did all this in Baba
:39:01. > :39:11.Amr, it was these armed terrorist groups who kidnap the civilians and
:39:11. > :39:18.blow up the buildings, the army had to push them out. We didn't blow up
:39:18. > :39:21.the buildings. He receives the Greek or the docks head, before the
:39:21. > :39:25.war there was people of all sects living in harmony. Here as
:39:25. > :39:31.elsewhere, battles are drawn on sectarian lines. The bishop wants
:39:31. > :39:41.to send a different message. belong to, not to this side or that
:39:41. > :39:45.
:39:45. > :39:49.side, I'm in the middle. But I think that it is my epistle to the
:39:49. > :39:53.world, that here in Syria we are not looking at each other as if we
:39:53. > :40:00.are different groups, or different, let's say, religions, fighting each
:40:00. > :40:08.other. But war is tearing at the fabric of
:40:08. > :40:14.this city, neighbourhood by neighbourhood. We tried to advise
:40:14. > :40:17.the mainly Sunni area of Derbalba, the Government told us it was too
:40:17. > :40:21.dangerous, even though the Government took it back last month.
:40:21. > :40:27.Much of Homs is under their control again, for now. But so much has
:40:27. > :40:36.been lost here. There is so little trust. There is a checkpoint now on
:40:36. > :40:41.almost every corner. This one is being manned by women. They call
:40:41. > :40:46.themselves "The Lioness's" loyal to a President whose name means "the
:40:46. > :40:49.lion". They are part of called Popular Committees, set up by the
:40:49. > :40:55.Government to reinforce security. Putting a brave face on this war.
:40:55. > :40:59.But there is no hiding what's gone on in Homs. What's happened across
:40:59. > :41:05.Syria, and what more is still to come.
:41:05. > :41:12.The kinds of conditions we found in Homs have echos elsewhere in Syria,
:41:12. > :41:22.including Aleppo and Damascus. We have a PhD student in economics
:41:22. > :41:28.at Brunel university and former residents in Syria. Did the scenes
:41:28. > :41:34.in the piece correspond to how your family is living? It reminded me of
:41:34. > :41:40.how my family are living back home in different places in Syria.
:41:41. > :41:45.Giving you an example of my city, Deraa, it has been surrounded by
:41:45. > :41:53.Assad forces for over 70 days now. 200,000 people fled out of this
:41:53. > :41:59.city to the surrounding areas. They left without food, with lack of
:41:59. > :42:03.fuel and water and heating, with this cold weather. Children dying
:42:03. > :42:07.from hunger and cold weather. have not been back for about two
:42:07. > :42:12.years. When you get sent pictures, or see pictures of where you are
:42:12. > :42:17.from, the streets that you know so well, do you recognise it? Actually,
:42:17. > :42:21.here is the very sad part of that, to be honest, when I look at some
:42:21. > :42:26.pictures coming from my city, looking at the street, thinking
:42:26. > :42:30.where is that street, do I know this city, is this actually my city.
:42:30. > :42:35.It is like all the buildings are destroyed, schools and mosques and
:42:35. > :42:40.all this, I don't recognise it. said 200,000 people have left the
:42:40. > :42:44.city, you said they went to the surrounding area, to do what? Where
:42:44. > :42:48.are they living? How are they living? They are living a miserable
:42:48. > :42:53.life. They are living in the surrounding areas, like it's forest
:42:53. > :43:00.or something like that, or other cities. Some how it is safer, but
:43:00. > :43:05.they are living on very, very minor basis of life. They are struggling
:43:05. > :43:13.to get bread, water and food and all these things. The electricity
:43:13. > :43:17.is shut for ten hours, and it is like some of friends boasting on
:43:17. > :43:24.Facebook saying if we are -- saying on Facebook, if they are not dying
:43:24. > :43:28.from the rockets or the bullets but from the cold. On the one hand in
:43:28. > :43:32.the film you see the awful scenes, and on the other hand you see
:43:32. > :43:41.people eating pizzas, admittedly they can't always make them. Is
:43:41. > :43:46.there a degree of normal life going on? In certain areas, but they are
:43:46. > :43:56.pro-Assad, so the Government let them live their lives, they don't
:43:56. > :44:01.interfere. One shout in an area, saying" Assad down", or" Assad step
:44:01. > :44:05.down", or "free Syria", you will see massive bullets and massive put
:44:05. > :44:10.down. Why aren't you treating your people equally? How long do you
:44:10. > :44:15.think it will go on for, it must seem endless to you? To be honest
:44:15. > :44:20.we don't know how long this will go on. As long as the fighting is
:44:20. > :44:25.between the two parties, it is going on and on, it might go for
:44:25. > :44:30.years, or it might end tomorrow. Nobody knows. So it should be like
:44:30. > :44:40.some solution other than war. Now a quick look at tomorrow
:44:40. > :44:59.
:44:59. > :45:02.morning's front page, quite a few The MoD is supporting French
:45:02. > :45:06.efforts through logistical support, ministers are reviewing the