:00:17. > :00:22.Tonight the Prime Minister dazzled his party with his speech on Europe.
:00:22. > :00:25.Is he selling a false prospectus? When we have negotiated add new
:00:25. > :00:29.settlement, we will give the British people a referendum, with a
:00:29. > :00:37.very simple in or out choice, to stay in the European Union, on
:00:37. > :00:41.these new terms, or to come out all together. It will be an in-out
:00:42. > :00:48.referendum. And what of Labour, Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum,
:00:48. > :00:52.and hey pres toe, an hour later, it was all change. Was this UKIP's big
:00:52. > :00:58.day, or has David Cameron shot their fox. We will speak to Nigel
:00:58. > :01:03.Farage, to the Europe Minister and the Liberal Democrats and Labour.
:01:03. > :01:08.The Czech calm pass dor gives us an EU -- ambassador gives us an EU
:01:08. > :01:11.view. Immigration is the perceived
:01:11. > :01:15.problem with Europe, the focus now is on Romanians, they get the right
:01:15. > :01:18.to come here at the end of the year. Newsnight has been to Portsmouth
:01:18. > :01:22.where there are real concerns that a new influx could push local
:01:22. > :01:26.resources over the edge. There is not enough room for anybody else,
:01:26. > :01:29.basically. That's it, they should put a stop to it. Whatever Brussels
:01:29. > :01:34.thinks, we ain't got enough room. Also tonight, the public Health
:01:34. > :01:44.Minister has suggested you can tell a child's background from how obese
:01:44. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:52.they are, with junk food rife amongst the poor, is she right?
:01:52. > :01:59.There was an air of general excitement amongst Conservatives
:01:59. > :02:04.today, that their leader had delivered a speech they could all
:02:04. > :02:09.coalesce around. The Prime Minister wants a new European treaty based
:02:09. > :02:15.on five principle, based on his five principle.
:02:15. > :02:20.He would put the deal to a country in a referendum. Asking in or out
:02:20. > :02:23.on EU membership. We will be assessing his chances of
:02:23. > :02:27.success throughout the programme tonight W my guests, but first, a
:02:27. > :02:32.quick reaction. First of all, the Europe Minister, David Lidlington,
:02:32. > :02:37.have you hooverered up, what was it David Cameron called UKIP, the
:02:37. > :02:40."fruitcakes loan ies and closet racists" their votes with today's
:02:40. > :02:44.announcement? The Conservative Party will be happy with today's
:02:44. > :02:47.speech, but more importantly I think there will be a real sigh of
:02:47. > :02:50.relief in the country that there they will get the final say.
:02:51. > :02:54.Frankly, there has been a lot of poison that has got into the debate
:02:54. > :02:57.about the merits of our European membership. Because people have
:02:57. > :03:01.felt they are not being trusted to have the final say. That's taken
:03:01. > :03:06.out of it now, we can have a proper debate on the merit. I think we can
:03:06. > :03:09.win that debate for a strong yes vote. What about the Shadow Europe
:03:10. > :03:14.Minister, people know now if they want to vote on Europe there is no
:03:14. > :03:17.point in voting on Europe, Emma Reynolds? We think at a time of
:03:17. > :03:20.great economic difficulty it is wrong to cast a cloud of
:03:20. > :03:23.uncertainty over inward investment over four years. British business
:03:24. > :03:27.are saying the same thing. referendum? We have said today we
:03:27. > :03:34.are against a referendum, and also planning a referendum at an abitary
:03:34. > :03:38.time in the future. We will talk about this, Ming Campbell is this a
:03:38. > :03:41.deal-breaker for future coalitions, that you would never do a deal with
:03:41. > :03:44.Conservatives on an in-out referendum? That is a long way down
:03:44. > :03:48.the track. Just as the referendum is a long way down the track. One
:03:48. > :03:50.thing that is certain we are about to have a period of four or five
:03:51. > :03:54.years of unprecedented constitutional and economic
:03:54. > :03:57.uncertainty. How that can be conceived to be in the interests of
:03:57. > :04:02.this country, I simply cannot imagine. Nigel Farage, surely it is
:04:02. > :04:05.game over for UKIP, you got what you wanted, an in-out referendum, a
:04:05. > :04:10.discussion on Europe. You are completely redundant? You are trite
:04:10. > :04:16.say one thing, it has been a great -- Right to say one thing. It has
:04:16. > :04:20.been a great victory for us. Debate whrooing Britain should leave the
:04:20. > :04:23.EU is a genie out of the bottle that won't come back. We will
:04:23. > :04:27.discuss all that later, but today's speech from David Cameron has been
:04:27. > :04:31.six months in the planning, rescheduled several times, and no
:04:32. > :04:35.doubt seen countless drafts. Did the Prime Minister see what was his
:04:35. > :04:44.central goal. Tonight the Conservative Party unite around him,
:04:44. > :04:48.- to unite the Conservative Party around him and -- We were expecting
:04:48. > :04:52.a rushed sketch from the Prime Minister, as he tried to fill a
:04:53. > :04:55.difficult political void. Instead we got a carefully drawn
:04:55. > :05:01.philosophical vision. What David Cameron thinks Europe should be.
:05:01. > :05:05.This morning too we got a primary coloured rendering of the British
:05:05. > :05:08.political scene. How can we sensibly answer the question, "in
:05:08. > :05:13.or out", without being able to answer the most basic question,
:05:13. > :05:18.what is it exactly that we are choosing to be in or out of? The
:05:18. > :05:22.European Union, that emerges from the eurozone crisis, is going to be
:05:22. > :05:25.a very different body. It will be transformed, perhaps beyond
:05:26. > :05:30.recognition, by the measures needed to save the eurozone. We need to
:05:30. > :05:35.allow some time for that to happen, and help shape the future of the
:05:35. > :05:39.European Union. So when the choice comes, it will be a real one. A
:05:39. > :05:44.real choice between leaving, or being part of a new settlement in
:05:44. > :05:49.which Britain shapes and respects the rules of the single market.
:05:49. > :05:52.David Cameron managed to tread that tight rope between Europhobia and
:05:52. > :05:57.eurofillia, between a European audience and a domestic audience,
:05:57. > :06:05.he took his euro-sceptics to theering like a man on a wie, on a
:06:05. > :06:10.journey towards -- tottering like man on a wire to almost sounding
:06:10. > :06:14.like Tony Blair, once he had renegotiated he said he would
:06:14. > :06:17.campaign for a yes vote. I think we can achieve after negotiation to a
:06:17. > :06:20.situation where Britain can be comfortable, and all our countries
:06:20. > :06:25.can thrive. When that referendum comes, let me say now that if we
:06:25. > :06:30.can negotiate such an arrangement, I will campaign for it with all my
:06:30. > :06:32.heart and all my soul. Within the day, the German
:06:32. > :06:36.Chancellor, Angela Merkel, said she would work for a deal with David
:06:36. > :06:41.Cameron, that she was prepared to talk about British wishes, but she
:06:41. > :06:45.cautioned that Britain's demands were one of many. How did he win
:06:45. > :06:50.over Merkel and win over euro- sceptic, it is the old Irish joke,
:06:50. > :06:54."I wouldn't start from here", there was five principles, the return to
:06:54. > :06:57.power for member states, that he wanted progress on, it was progress
:06:57. > :07:02.on principles rather than particulars before he put it to the
:07:02. > :07:06.British people, as he put it. The key question was that David Cameron
:07:06. > :07:09.couldn't negotiate successful, would he still vote yes in the
:07:09. > :07:13.referendum? Who goes into a negotiation hoping and expect to go
:07:13. > :07:16.fail. That might be the approach you take, it is not my approach. I
:07:16. > :07:19.go into a negotiation hoping and believing and expecting to succeed,
:07:19. > :07:23.and for all the reasons I have given today, I think there's every
:07:23. > :07:25.chance of success. If we went to the situation where you wanted a
:07:25. > :07:31.British settlement, treaty change would be really difficult. But it
:07:31. > :07:34.could, for example, get a declaration on the principle that
:07:34. > :07:38.says things should be done at a member-state level wherever
:07:38. > :07:42.possible. Maybe he could get an informal veto on strategic
:07:42. > :07:45.interests in the financial sector. He could maybe get the repeal of
:07:45. > :07:50.some legislation, something that bothers really most of the
:07:50. > :07:52.Conservative Party with the Working Time Directive. Most of this could
:07:52. > :07:55.be done without treaty change. Today is possibly the best day the
:07:55. > :07:59.Prime Minister will have on Europe for quite a while, because the road
:07:59. > :08:02.ahead will not be easy. In particular in his speech he sets
:08:02. > :08:05.out a date by which the referendum has to have happened, the middle of
:08:05. > :08:09.the next parliament. He did this to please his euro-sceptic, but he
:08:09. > :08:14.also did it knowing that many around him worry that timetable is
:08:14. > :08:17.going to be very tight to meet. think it will be a hard slog, there
:08:17. > :08:20.is a lot of work involved in this. There is a lot of work building
:08:20. > :08:24.alliances, building friendships, making sure we bring other people
:08:24. > :08:28.in. The great thing we have working with us is the fact that the EU now
:08:28. > :08:33.is in a state of flux. There is this process of integration going
:08:33. > :08:37.on, where the eurozone countries are going to integrate much more,
:08:37. > :08:42.politically and economically, Britain can't be a member of that
:08:42. > :08:46.integrated block, and nor are most of the non-eurozone members. There
:08:46. > :08:51.needs to be a new type of relationship. There is a challenge
:08:51. > :08:55.of getting all the details to the British electorate before 2019, we
:08:55. > :08:59.have a huge review of cost and benefits of the EU membership, that
:08:59. > :09:02.won't finish until the end of 2014, it will be difficult to formulate a
:09:02. > :09:06.position before the British elections. The second thing is we
:09:06. > :09:10.only go for the British solution if the pan-European one fails. They
:09:10. > :09:14.are not really due to start that until 2015 at the earliest, so
:09:14. > :09:18.knowing what we will be voting on in the elections, in terms of a
:09:18. > :09:21.Conservative Party policy at the moment, is a little bit unclear.
:09:21. > :09:25.Four hours after the Prime Minister's speech, the Labour
:09:25. > :09:29.leader clarified his own position, that he opposed David Cameron's
:09:29. > :09:37.referendum. The most basic question of all, is do you want a
:09:37. > :09:44.referendum? I do, does he? position is no, we don't want an
:09:44. > :09:49.in-out referendum. But let me finish. (shouting) my position is
:09:49. > :09:57.precisely the same as his position, when we voted together, yeah, when
:09:57. > :10:02.we voted together in October 2011 against an in-out referendum. My
:10:02. > :10:06.position hasn't changed, it's his position that's changed Mr Speaker.
:10:06. > :10:11.And here is the truth, six months of planning a speech on a
:10:11. > :10:15.referendum, he can't even tell us whether it is a yes or a no.
:10:15. > :10:20.Over the coming months and years, the Conservatives will try to paint
:10:20. > :10:26.Ed Miliband as an out-of-touch dweller of primrose hill, at odds
:10:26. > :10:30.with the British public. Labour will try to paint David Cameron as
:10:30. > :10:34.an out-of-touch twel dweller of Middle England, out-of-touch with
:10:34. > :10:38.big business. For David Cameron it is a question of R & R,
:10:38. > :10:44.renegotiation and referendum, for Ed Miliband it will be the reRs,
:10:44. > :10:48.reform and reject that referendum. But before we get to the parliament,
:10:48. > :10:52.what will be the effect Europe will have on this parliament, there were
:10:52. > :10:56.signs that the Liberal Democrats in this parliament would not endorse
:10:56. > :11:01.David Cameron's pledge to put the draft legislation of the referendum
:11:01. > :11:04.down before 2015. In a private meeting civil servants were told
:11:04. > :11:06.they were not allowed to be involved in drafting the
:11:06. > :11:09.legislation, since Liberal Democrats would not allow it to be
:11:09. > :11:12.a coalition bill. With the Prime Minister's speech today, it was
:11:12. > :11:16.confirmed that the issue of Europe could dominate the parliament, and
:11:16. > :11:20.it could end up curtailing this one. Before we hear from the politicians
:11:20. > :11:22.again, we went back to some of those who we talked to on Newsnight
:11:22. > :11:27.recently, about how Britain's relationship with Europe affects
:11:27. > :11:32.their lives, to find out what they made of the Prime Minister's speech.
:11:32. > :11:41.My name is Peter Carroll, I'm a part-owner of a small-to-medium
:11:41. > :11:44.sized business, operating in road freight in the UK and across Europe
:11:44. > :11:48.My first reaction was do the politicians know how high the
:11:48. > :11:51.stakes are. With half our exports going to Europe, if we get it wrong,
:11:51. > :11:56.we could be a Third World economy within ten years. The stakes are
:11:56. > :12:00.enormous. The thing we want is fairness. If drivers based in
:12:00. > :12:04.Britain work to the same level of discipline and control and
:12:04. > :12:07.regulation as they do in other countries, at least it's fair. What
:12:07. > :12:12.we would be worried about, is that you may end up in a situation where
:12:12. > :12:15.different countries are working to different drivers' hours rules,
:12:15. > :12:18.different safety standards on vehicles, different employment
:12:18. > :12:21.regulation, and there is a danger, then, that it is not fair and we
:12:21. > :12:25.can't compete. It feels to us in the business community, sometimes,
:12:25. > :12:31.as if the politicians are constantly finding something else
:12:31. > :12:34.to tackle, some other issue, whether it be gay marriage, Europe,
:12:34. > :12:40.NHS reorganisations, all very important subjects and issues, but
:12:40. > :12:45.there is one thing more important at the moment than all of those, it
:12:45. > :12:51.is this, concentrate 100% on getting the UK economy growing.
:12:51. > :12:55.Because unless we have a growing economy, we're going nowhere.
:12:55. > :12:59.My name is Ben Molyneux a junior doctor in the final year of my
:12:59. > :13:03.training gaised in London. Listening to the speech yesterday,
:13:03. > :13:08.Mr Cameron referenced the hours junior doctors can work, and the
:13:08. > :13:12.fact that the EU shouldn't set the hours that doctors should work in
:13:12. > :13:18.the UK. I would disagree, we have gone from an average of 100 hours
:13:18. > :13:21.to 48 hours a week. What that has meant is improvment to patient
:13:21. > :13:26.safety, tired doctors and people make mistakes. In my field of work
:13:26. > :13:28.I can't afford to be tired and make a mistake as a result. I think the
:13:28. > :13:32.European Working Time Directive has been a really positive thing for
:13:32. > :13:37.patients and doctors. What I want to know is will my training be
:13:37. > :13:39.high-quality, will the hours I do be safe, will my patients be cared
:13:39. > :13:46.for adequately, if David Cameron can do something outside of Europe
:13:46. > :13:51.that can deliver that, that's OK. I'm Guy Smith, I'm a farmer from
:13:51. > :13:58.east Essex, I come from a 1,000- acre mixed farming. He's right to
:13:58. > :14:05.bring the issue to a head. I don't like this half in half out never,
:14:05. > :14:09.Neverland we seem to be in, we need to make our mind up if we are in or
:14:09. > :14:14.not. As a father I get access to continental markets which is
:14:14. > :14:19.important, I receive �130,000 worth of support. But the point is, I'm
:14:19. > :14:22.happy to have that level of support reduced, as long it is reduced
:14:22. > :14:27.multilaterally across Europe. As long as the playing field stays
:14:27. > :14:33.level, so I get a low-level of support, or no support, and so does
:14:33. > :14:38.my equivalent in France, or Poland or Germany, then I'm convinced as a
:14:38. > :14:41.British farmer I can compete. On a purely personal level my reaction
:14:41. > :14:46.to the European Union is to remember that my grandfather died
:14:46. > :14:50.on the beaches of Malta, my uncles died on the beaches of Normandy, my
:14:50. > :14:54.great uncle died on the field of Flanders, and those men I never met,
:14:54. > :14:59.their ghosts probably tell me that the stability and prosperity that
:14:59. > :15:03.the European Union has contributed to is worth hanging on to. Let's
:15:03. > :15:08.talk about all of this, our guests are the Europe Minister, David
:15:08. > :15:13.Lidlington, the UKIP lead e Nigel Farage, Shadow Europe Minister,
:15:13. > :15:16.Emma Reynolds, and the Lib Dem former leader, Ming Campbell.
:15:16. > :15:20.David Lidlington, first of all, David Cameron will say it is
:15:20. > :15:24.successful whatever happens, isn't he? What he's going into, the very
:15:24. > :15:27.start of a negotiation, is confident in his approach. Spelled
:15:27. > :15:30.out today a vision, not just for the Conservative Party or Britain,
:15:30. > :15:33.but of the challenges that Europe as a whole needs to face up to,
:15:33. > :15:37.competitiveness, democratic accountability, and the principle
:15:37. > :15:42.that is should govern how Europe as a whole addresses those. In many
:15:42. > :15:46.ways he used very emotive language, some of it was very Europhile and
:15:46. > :15:50.so forth, you can set out a vision and dream, but unpicking a lot of
:15:50. > :15:52.these treaty negotiations, unpicking a lot of the different
:15:52. > :15:55.elements are quite a different thing, that is not just about
:15:55. > :15:59.Britain, is it? It is not just about Britain. But what your
:16:00. > :16:03.question, I think, omits, is the fact that Europe is already
:16:03. > :16:06.undergoing a process of change, that is driven in large part by the
:16:06. > :16:09.pressure on those of our friends who are in the single currency, to
:16:09. > :16:14.integrate much more closely. How do you make that fair to those who are
:16:14. > :16:18.out as well as those who are in. It is driven by the need to respond to
:16:18. > :16:21.the challenge of Asia and Latin America. If Europe doesn't raise
:16:21. > :16:25.its game in competitiveness, every European country will struggle in
:16:25. > :16:29.the future. Let's set out the time scale, what he was saying in his
:16:29. > :16:34.speech is in the next three years in reshaping that you actually want
:16:34. > :16:36.from Europe, that is, of course, without your coalition partners
:16:36. > :16:41.here taking part in any of this. You are going to spend the next
:16:41. > :16:48.three years reshaping it t then you are going to go to the country with
:16:48. > :16:53.a mandate for renegotiation? First of all. Where is the complete meat
:16:53. > :16:56.on the bone? There won't be three years of standing still, although
:16:56. > :16:59.Ming Campbell and I don't agree on European matters, we have a
:16:59. > :17:02.coalition agreement where week by week we are delivering on the
:17:02. > :17:06.process of European reform, that doesn't require treaty change, that
:17:06. > :17:10.is under way on things like banking union, and fisheries. We will make
:17:10. > :17:14.clear as a Conservative Party, certainly before people come to
:17:14. > :17:16.vote at the next general election. No red lines. What it is we will be
:17:17. > :17:19.putting to the people at the general election, as the position
:17:19. > :17:23.that a Conservative Government, if elected with a majority, will take
:17:23. > :17:26.into the treaty negotiations, which I would be expected to take place
:17:26. > :17:32.early in the next parliament. have the situation where you are
:17:32. > :17:39.doing this big review of competences, as it is called, which
:17:39. > :17:42.runs sem meser by sem meser, d smeser by smeser running the whole
:17:43. > :17:47.gamit. You have that coming up as a report card. Will that be the basis
:17:47. > :17:51.on which you are going to call for a change? It will be very important
:17:51. > :17:55.as a source of evidence to inform the evidence and detainment for
:17:55. > :17:58.example, I will want to look at what business and business
:17:58. > :18:01.organisations say in their evidence, these are the things we like and
:18:01. > :18:08.want to keep in European negotiations, these are the things
:18:08. > :18:15.we want to change. In the next three years you will go to the
:18:15. > :18:18.European Summits as a coalition. And you will be ripping apart the
:18:18. > :18:21.Liberal Democrats, what will be going on? I have said, as a
:18:21. > :18:24.coalition we work in accordance with the coalition agreement. That
:18:24. > :18:29.includes a commitment to European reform, in which Conservative and
:18:29. > :18:32.Lib Dem ministers, alike, have been able to work very constructively
:18:33. > :18:36.together and get good results. know you didn't want to discuss
:18:36. > :18:40.this with the others, I will go straight to Ming Campbell, how will
:18:40. > :18:43.you operate in the next three years when David Cameron appears to be
:18:43. > :18:46.questioning, and his ministers, questioning every single aspect of
:18:46. > :18:49.Europe? You could say the general election started here today.
:18:49. > :18:54.Everyone knows, by the time the general election comes, then the
:18:54. > :18:57.two parties will be separate, with separate manifestos. How can you
:18:57. > :19:00.present a united front on Europe in the next three years? With great
:19:00. > :19:04.difficulty is the answer to your question. Because for the next two
:19:04. > :19:07.or three years, every piece of legislation, every speech, every
:19:08. > :19:11.decision made will be seen through the prism of the referendum. It is
:19:11. > :19:14.just like Scotland. Where exactly the same thing has happened. Now
:19:14. > :19:19.that creates a degree of uncertainty, which, for example, if
:19:19. > :19:24.you are considering making a large scale investment in the United
:19:24. > :19:26.Kingdom, foreign investors will say there is too much uncertainty
:19:26. > :19:31.involved here. Now we understand that Angela Merkel has said she's
:19:31. > :19:36.willing to do a deal. This is a story in the Telegraph, she hints
:19:36. > :19:40.at a deal for Cameron? What sort of deal. And if it is not good enough,
:19:40. > :19:44.will David Cameron come back in due course come back and say vote no in
:19:44. > :19:48.the reference DUP, because -- referendum, because I have failed
:19:48. > :19:52.to achieve what I set out to achieve. Ming Campbell, begin you
:19:52. > :19:58.look back at the reshuffle and you realise there is not a single Lib
:19:58. > :20:01.Dem in the Foreign Office, was it the grand plan? I don't think it
:20:02. > :20:05.was, I have spoken to Nick Clegg about this, he knows my view, it is
:20:05. > :20:10.not something I would do for a whole variety of reasons. But that
:20:10. > :20:12.doesn't stop us having a clear view that what the Prime Minister has
:20:12. > :20:15.introduced today is wholly contrary to the interests of the country, it
:20:15. > :20:21.is more in the interests of the Conservative Party than the country,
:20:21. > :20:24.it is more about UKIP than the UK. Let's talk about UKIP for a moment,
:20:24. > :20:27.Nigel Farage, do you think there will be a pact at the next election
:20:27. > :20:30.with Tories who have specifically said they will vote out the
:20:30. > :20:34.referendum? Watching the Prime Minister, watching William Hague
:20:34. > :20:38.and the Europe Minister, the more I see of them today the less I trust
:20:38. > :20:43.them. This is a deliberate tactic to kick the can down the road for
:20:43. > :20:46.five years or more. What they have done is a five-year campaign to
:20:46. > :20:49.keep us in. I don't think there is an intention to have a serious
:20:49. > :20:53.European debate, they want to close it down, ahead of the next election,
:20:53. > :20:56.thinking we will go away. We are not, and I think the prospects of
:20:57. > :21:00.us doing a deal with David Cameron are very unlikely. No deal with
:21:00. > :21:03.David Cameron, I'm asking would you do a deal with Tories who say they
:21:03. > :21:09.will vote for an out on the referendum? That is not on my
:21:09. > :21:13.agenda at the moment. On my agenda are the big county councils this
:21:13. > :21:17.year, and a big European election in 2014. You said before the speech
:21:17. > :21:20.there would be a great many calls, you would take them, from
:21:20. > :21:26.disgruntled Conservatives after the speech, has your phone been
:21:26. > :21:30.ringing? I think he has done enough to keep them on side. So your phone
:21:30. > :21:34.hasn't rung? He has done enough. Were there any calls? I answered it
:21:34. > :21:38.twice, he has done enough to keep the euro-sceptics on his
:21:38. > :21:43.backbenches satisfied for the moment. Within a few weeks we will
:21:43. > :21:46.talk about the Romanian accession, and this issue hasn't gone away.
:21:46. > :21:50.will come to that later in the programme. If David Cameron has
:21:50. > :21:54.been speeching for the -- preparing for the speech for six months, Ed
:21:54. > :22:00.Miliband knows it has been coming for six months, when he stood at
:22:00. > :22:05.the despatch box, he didn't get it right did he? We have had a
:22:05. > :22:13.consistent position for a year. I was standing beside the Reverend
:22:13. > :22:18.minister voting no to an in-out referendum. Douglas Alexander to h
:22:18. > :22:23.to temper it later that there wouldn't be an in-out referendum,
:22:23. > :22:26.and saying they weren't definitely against it? Our position is
:22:26. > :22:29.consistent and clear, we are not in favour of an in-out referendum, but
:22:29. > :22:33.you can never say never in foreign affairs. It could be that there is
:22:33. > :22:36.a situation in the future. But we will if there is a transfer of
:22:36. > :22:40.powers. Let's stick with that, this is yet another position, what you
:22:40. > :22:44.are saying now, is that never say never in politics. Again Labour
:22:44. > :22:47.says there is no red lines, then, actually, what you are telling the
:22:47. > :22:50.viewers tonight is it is possible that Labour could go for an in-out
:22:51. > :22:54.referendum, within the next five years, it is possible? We are not
:22:54. > :23:00.planning to promise an in-out referendum at an abitary point in
:23:00. > :23:03.the future. I think the question is, why 2017/2018? Because the last
:23:04. > :23:08.time we had treaty change in the European Union it took a hell of a
:23:08. > :23:13.lot longer than that. We don't know the Liberal Democrats' position
:23:13. > :23:23.definitely on that yet? Every re- election they promise a referendum
:23:23. > :23:23.
:23:23. > :23:26.and they all break it. Hang on, hang on. Do you support an in-out
:23:26. > :23:30.referendum? Our position is, if there is any movement of powers
:23:31. > :23:33.from Westminster to Brussels, then we will put that to the keep in a
:23:33. > :23:36.referendum. It is perfectly straight forward and clear. It is
:23:36. > :23:40.what the Conservatives signed up to in 2010. You might be the only
:23:40. > :23:43.party that goes into the next election not promising a referendum
:23:43. > :23:46.of some sort on future European membership? We have also said we
:23:46. > :23:50.would not repeal that legislation, there would be a referendum if
:23:50. > :23:54.there was a transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels. That is
:23:54. > :23:58.clear. Nigel Farage, as somebody was saying today, that this is the
:23:58. > :24:01.most powerful day for a party that doesn't have an MP? That's right.
:24:01. > :24:04.We have changed the fundamental nature of the debate in this
:24:04. > :24:07.country. Withdrawing from the European Union is now a respectable
:24:07. > :24:13.debate, the trouble is, that all these parties, all these three
:24:13. > :24:18.parties will now kol allless around trying to keep -- kol aless around
:24:18. > :24:21.trying to keep us as part of the European Union, we will be only
:24:21. > :24:24.people battling against. What do you make of that, that it is all a
:24:24. > :24:28.nonsense, you are not serious about fundamental change, and actually
:24:29. > :24:37.you can be bought off very quickly with a quick hit from Angela
:24:37. > :24:40.Merkel? It is good to have early indication that is important
:24:40. > :24:43.partners like Germany, the Netherlands and the Czech Republic,
:24:43. > :24:48.want to get into a serious negotiation with the UK on matters
:24:48. > :24:53.affecting the future of Europe. What I would say to Nigel, it is an
:24:53. > :24:56.important pledge for the Prime Minister to give to hold a decisive
:24:56. > :25:01.in-out referendum. By saying trust the people, it will enable a very
:25:01. > :25:04.serious mature debate to take place, as my Irish counterpart has said,
:25:04. > :25:09.their experience of referendum is people then focus on the content of
:25:09. > :25:15.the issue. I think we will win the debate and that will be that.
:25:15. > :25:18.Thank you very much indeed. In a moment, I can speak to the
:25:18. > :25:23.aforemention Czech Republic's ambassador, a man who has sat in
:25:23. > :25:28.quite a few EU negotiation. First, staying up late for us, in Davos is
:25:28. > :25:31.Peter Sutherland, who in a checkered career has been an EU
:25:31. > :25:38.Commissioner, and director of the World Trade Organisation, and now
:25:38. > :25:43.non-executive chairman, he has been before, the chairman of BP. You are
:25:43. > :25:50.there in Davos, David Cameron will be there tomorrow. What has been
:25:50. > :25:55.the reaction to the speech today, has it been earth-shattering?
:25:55. > :26:00.hardly say that I know what the overall reaction was, maybe I was
:26:00. > :26:03.speaking to kindred spirits, the people I spoke to were shocked by
:26:03. > :26:08.the speech that was given. It constituted a shock on a number of
:26:08. > :26:14.fronts. First of all, the blunt repuddation of some of the basic
:26:14. > :26:19.concepts that the European Union is about. Which is something more than
:26:19. > :26:23.simply having a market. Secondly, the prolonged period of negotiation
:26:23. > :26:27.of a withdrawal of competences, a repatriation of competences, which
:26:27. > :26:33.are unidentified. Which is going to lead to uncertainty, at a time when
:26:33. > :26:37.Europe is in the midst of a serious crisis. So I think a lot of people
:26:38. > :26:41.have been some what shocked by the bluntness of what is now clearly
:26:41. > :26:46.going to be an acrimonious debate. A lot of people would say, in
:26:46. > :26:49.business, that debate needs to be had, afterall you are a former
:26:49. > :26:53.chairman of British Petroleum, there has been a lot of disquiet in
:26:54. > :26:58.business about certain of the EU rules, where people have found to
:26:58. > :27:02.be hindering? Of course there are issues that people have with Europe.
:27:02. > :27:05.But there is an overwhelmingly positive view, I believe in
:27:05. > :27:10.business, about Britain being in Europe, and being in the European
:27:10. > :27:14.Union. Of course one can argue issues on one side or another, but
:27:14. > :27:21.the overall balance of account is very clearly in favour of an
:27:21. > :27:28.integrated market, but more than that, a more intergreated Europe
:27:28. > :27:31.integrated Europe. I don't believe there is a negative view about the
:27:31. > :27:35.European Union in business, or about the future. I think many
:27:35. > :27:41.business leaders would demur at an idea of an integrated Europe, they
:27:41. > :27:48.may want an integrated market, but the integrated union smacks of a
:27:48. > :27:52.political nature that many move back from? It depends how you
:27:52. > :27:56.define it. We signed up for a greater union of the peoples of
:27:56. > :28:01.Europe, that was expressly repudiated today. Most believe we
:28:01. > :28:03.are on a course to an undefined destination, but greater
:28:03. > :28:08.integration between the peoples of Europe and the states that
:28:08. > :28:13.represent them. Most of us hope that will continue. I know this is
:28:13. > :28:17.certainly kicking the can five years down the road. Just let's say
:28:17. > :28:20.there is a referendum, in-out of Europe, a Conservative Government
:28:20. > :28:24.has returned, there is this referendum and the British people
:28:24. > :28:28.say "no" to Europe. What will the long-term consequences be,
:28:28. > :28:34.politically, culturally, economically? I personally think it
:28:34. > :28:39.would be very bad for the UK. But it would all depend on what
:28:39. > :28:42.relationship was permitted between Great Britain after leaving the
:28:42. > :28:46.European Union with what remains. The access to the market it is
:28:46. > :28:50.given and so on. I think it would be very bad for Britain, but it
:28:50. > :28:55.would also be very bad for Europe. Because Britain has brought a
:28:55. > :28:59.liberal attitude to trade and trade negotiations, and globalisation,
:28:59. > :29:03.which is positive. And it genuinely has brought an element of respect
:29:03. > :29:08.for the rule of law, that was important for Europe. I think both
:29:08. > :29:13.Europe and the United Kingdom would lose. How precisely they would lose
:29:13. > :29:16.is impossible to foretell, without knowing the detail of the
:29:16. > :29:23.negotiations to leave the European Union, if that ever happens.
:29:23. > :29:28.Thank you very much for joining us. I turn to the Czech ambassador,
:29:28. > :29:30.Michael Zantovsky. Ambassador, you are a more recent recruit to Europe,
:29:30. > :29:37.ten years standing now from the accession states. Is David Cameron
:29:37. > :29:41.leading wait for you all to follow? Do you see the need for some
:29:41. > :29:48.fundamental reform, in terms of fairness, democratic involvement,
:29:48. > :29:51.competition, so forth? First of all I would say that I was rather
:29:51. > :29:58.reassured listening to the Prime Minister today, becauses he put it,
:29:58. > :30:04.he offered a positive vision of Europe, not a negative vision. We
:30:04. > :30:09.believe it would be very, very bad if the UK left the EU, and it would
:30:09. > :30:13.be bad for Europe too. Do you think, do you have sympathy with his
:30:13. > :30:17.position, do you think it is more about quelling unrest in the party,
:30:17. > :30:26.or actually at his party, a genuine desire for reform? I believe that
:30:26. > :30:31.he set out the goals that he set out were not particularly heretical,
:30:32. > :30:35.they were about adaptation to the changes currently taking place in
:30:35. > :30:38.the eurozone, and about equitable treatment between the eurozone
:30:38. > :30:43.member countries and the non- eurozone member countries. They
:30:43. > :30:47.were about competitiveness, and they were about democratic
:30:47. > :30:51.accountability. That is like being for peace and motherhood. That may
:30:51. > :30:55.well be the case, fundamentality, in terms of negotiating a different
:30:55. > :31:00.treaty, and negotiating change, we still don't know what he actually
:31:00. > :31:04.wants. If he wants to renegotiate certain treaties, look at the
:31:04. > :31:08.Common Fisheries Policy, 21 years, nothing will happen in three years?
:31:08. > :31:16.Absolutely. He wasn't very specific about the policies he wanted to
:31:16. > :31:20.change. We take it as an opening position in a process of dialogue,
:31:20. > :31:24.and possibly negotiation, and every negotiation is open-ended. Yes,
:31:24. > :31:30.when the accession states, in 2003, for that to happen, other
:31:30. > :31:34.Governments had had to give up powers, that was a process? It is a
:31:34. > :31:38.process. I believe it is a British song that says "you can't always
:31:38. > :31:44.get what you want", but on the other hand, if you try sometimes.
:31:44. > :31:48.But he also, very briefly, he talked about new member states.
:31:48. > :31:51.That he actually saw a widening of Europe? That is true, we believe,
:31:52. > :31:55.just like the Prime Minister believes, that the European
:31:55. > :32:02.integration should stay open-ended, that there should be room for new
:32:02. > :32:05.members to come in, in the future, and that is an important principle
:32:05. > :32:10.of the European Union. Thank you very much.
:32:10. > :32:14.Rightly or wrongly our relationship with Europe has come, for many, to
:32:14. > :32:18.be defined by immigration. Following the arrival of thousands
:32:18. > :32:21.from accession countries over the last nine years. At the end of the
:32:21. > :32:25.year, Bulgarians and Romanians get the right to live and work here.
:32:26. > :32:30.How many can we expect to come. We reported from Romania on their
:32:30. > :32:33.plans to travel, today we were in Portsmouth, meeting the small
:32:33. > :32:38.Romanian community already established there. Portsmouth is
:32:38. > :32:44.now home for thousands of new Europeans. The population grew by
:32:44. > :32:48.nearly 10% in a decade. As the European Union has expanded,
:32:48. > :32:52.so this island nation has had to allow people from ever-more
:32:52. > :32:55.countries to cross the water and seek work here. These new
:32:55. > :32:59.communities need school places for their children, they need
:32:59. > :33:05.healthcare, they need housing. The impact can be felt, not only in the
:33:05. > :33:09.big cities, but also the smaller ones, like Portsmouth. Many of the
:33:09. > :33:15.new arrivals are Catholic, some choose to send their children here,
:33:15. > :33:20.to St John's Cathedral School in the city centre. A handful of
:33:20. > :33:24.Romanian children are pupils here. This man drops his daughters off
:33:24. > :33:29.before heading to work. He's one of the scores of self-employed
:33:29. > :33:35.Romanian taxi drivers in Portsmouth. The family share a small, rented
:33:35. > :33:39.house, with two single men, but he wants to stay, for good. Here it is
:33:39. > :33:44.the perfect place for me, because, for me it worked out from the
:33:44. > :33:48.beginning. It is still working out. It is still OK for me. But do you
:33:49. > :33:52.earn a lot of money? I don't know what you mean by a lot of money.
:33:52. > :33:56.For me it is a lot of money. It is different from Romania. We are
:33:56. > :34:01.making a living here, we have a decent life here. We can afford to
:34:01. > :34:05.buy more clothes for our daughters, more food. He thinks some, but not
:34:05. > :34:11.many Romanians will come to Britain, when restrictions are lifted. He
:34:11. > :34:14.doesn't think they should be able to claim benefits. If you come in a
:34:15. > :34:19.country, like coming here, at least you should work legally, pay taxes
:34:20. > :34:23.for the five or ten years, then you can have some requests, OK you can
:34:23. > :34:26.have maybe because now I'm short of money, that you can help me with
:34:26. > :34:30.something. At least to have a period, you can't come here and the
:34:30. > :34:36.next month you get benefits. Regardless of state benefits,
:34:36. > :34:42.migrants can put a strain on local services. Between them, these
:34:42. > :34:46.pupils speak 27 languages. In this reception class, 90% of the
:34:46. > :34:49.children do not speak English at home. Hard for the teachers, they
:34:49. > :34:54.have to use actions to help them learn to read.
:34:54. > :34:57.It is very much a challenge, but it is also enriching for our whole
:34:57. > :35:00.school community. It is a very diverse world in which we live, the
:35:00. > :35:06.school reflects the diverse world that the children meet day in day
:35:06. > :35:10.out, when they go in and around Portsmouth.
:35:10. > :35:15.This school is now heavily oversubscribed, across Portsmouth,
:35:15. > :35:19.the council has to provide new places. Unemployment in Portsmouth
:35:19. > :35:24.is lower than the national average. Even with the thousands who have
:35:24. > :35:29.moved here in recent years. Little housing has been built. Compared
:35:29. > :35:32.with a decade ago, a higher proportion of people rent from
:35:32. > :35:36.private landlords a smaller proportion own their own home. The
:35:36. > :35:41.local advice centre told us many people complained that rents were
:35:41. > :35:45.rising, and some said the properties were in very poor
:35:45. > :35:53.condition. The 2011 census showed nearly 80,000 are you minutians
:35:53. > :35:57.living in England and Wales, -- Romanians living in England and
:35:58. > :36:02.Wales. Less than 400 were in Portsmouth, there are signs that
:36:02. > :36:06.has grown, there is a Romanian food shop. A Romanian journalist based
:36:06. > :36:11.in Britain, said she would expect Romanians to come to small cities
:36:11. > :36:18.like this, but not in large numbers. They will be inclined to research
:36:18. > :36:21.for themselves, and to look for smaller cities and towns to
:36:21. > :36:27.establish themselves for a better quality of life.
:36:27. > :36:31.Rather than the big cities like London. For now, Portsmouth council
:36:31. > :36:35.say the migration's most significant affect is the shortage
:36:35. > :36:39.of school places. That could change if many more people came, all in a
:36:39. > :36:46.short time. But the council leader says the migration is a small price
:36:46. > :36:49.to pay, for the benefit of EU membership.
:36:49. > :36:56.There has become an ambition, by people who can afford it, that they
:36:56. > :36:59.would like to retire somewhere that is a bit warmer than in Britain
:36:59. > :37:03.today. To be in Spain or France or whatever. You can't do that if you
:37:03. > :37:08.are not part of the EU. That is part of the deal. And the other
:37:08. > :37:13.part of the deal is as free movement of labour, around the EU.
:37:13. > :37:17.A view shared by some, not all, in a busy local pub. We can move
:37:17. > :37:20.around the same as they can move here. So I don't think it will, it
:37:20. > :37:24.will even itself out. There is not enough room for anybody else,
:37:24. > :37:30.basically. That's it, they should put a stop to it. Whatever Brussels
:37:30. > :37:34.thinks, we ain't got enough room. Talking today of Britain and Europe,
:37:34. > :37:41.the Prime Minister did not mention migration. But with the referendum
:37:41. > :37:46.announced, others will. The issue of growing childhood
:37:47. > :37:50.obesity is something that exercises doctors, nutritionist, and recently
:37:50. > :37:53.celebrity chefs. Jamie Oliver's campaign for healthy school meals
:37:53. > :37:57.generally met with favourable response, though some parents and
:37:57. > :38:01.children thought they were being preached at. Now the public Health
:38:01. > :38:07.Minister, Anna Soubry, has claimed that where once poor children were
:38:07. > :38:13.likely to resemble Oliver Twist, they were now more like Billy
:38:13. > :38:18.Bunter. Her example, not mine. Anna Soubry is one of the more
:38:18. > :38:24.outspoken ministers, in charge of the health sport folio, she was
:38:24. > :38:32.castigating the food producering, warning them to cut fat and sugar
:38:32. > :38:36.or find legislation against them, which went off the book.
:38:36. > :38:43.She said poor children used to be skinny ruoints because of poor diet,
:38:43. > :38:48.she says they are now likely to be fat because of the fast food. She
:38:48. > :38:58.says it was heart-breaking and put parents in the firing line. Is she
:38:58. > :39:03.attacking people with the least chance of helping themselves?
:39:03. > :39:07.I'm joined my guests today. Harry Mount, is she right? The statistics
:39:07. > :39:11.show she's definitely right, and should be praised for exposing a
:39:11. > :39:15.truth, even if it is embarrassing, is true, and everyone secretly
:39:15. > :39:18.knows it. Where does the fault lie? It seems she very much is pointing
:39:18. > :39:23.the finger, and does it lie with the food companies, does it lie
:39:23. > :39:30.with the supermarkets or parents? think it is completely personal
:39:30. > :39:34.choice. I think we all know what is good and what is bad for us. George
:39:34. > :39:39.Orwell made the point brilliantly, he said if liech isn't great and
:39:39. > :39:42.you are worse off, if you are given the choice between a piece of apple
:39:42. > :39:46.or the chocolate, you will have the chocolate, it is odder to choose
:39:46. > :39:53.the apple, it is because the middle-class are brilliant at self-
:39:53. > :39:57.denial and they will go for the apple. Do you agree? Obesity is
:39:57. > :40:00.something affecting the whole population. 60% of adults are
:40:00. > :40:08.overweight or obese, the health consequences are staggering.
:40:08. > :40:10.Increase in heart disease, cancers and diabetes. The comments are
:40:10. > :40:14.counter-productive, they are more politically motivated. She has
:40:14. > :40:16.given the appearance of stigma advertising the poor. When she
:40:16. > :40:20.should be concentrating her efforts on the real culprits, the food
:40:20. > :40:24.industry, in my opinion. They have been allowed to hijack the food
:40:24. > :40:27.environment, we have been oversupply of healthy foods
:40:27. > :40:30.everywhere, but they are able to get away with irresponsible
:40:30. > :40:34.marketing, cheap junk food to vulnerable people. Do you think
:40:34. > :40:37.that is where the fault lies and politicians aren't cracking down on
:40:37. > :40:41.food labelling, content and so forth of the big food giants?
:40:41. > :40:44.think that is one aspect. I also think the marketing of unhealthy
:40:45. > :40:47.foods as well is something that needs to be tackled. I want to say
:40:47. > :40:50.one more thing that is really important. The current Government
:40:50. > :40:56.policy is one of voluntary agreement with the food industry. I
:40:56. > :40:59.think that is doomed today failure. It is a failed experiment, we know
:40:59. > :41:04.that the food industry only care about profit. And more importantly
:41:04. > :41:08.than that, what it actually is doing, it's like asking the British
:41:08. > :41:11.Petroleum to encourage cycling, it won't work. You have to deal with
:41:11. > :41:16.the fact that it is true, for the first time in human civilisation,
:41:16. > :41:19.the richer you are, the thinner you are. And it suggests...Let's Deal
:41:19. > :41:23.with the food companies, would you not be in favour of much sharper
:41:23. > :41:28.legislation, you know, we have the idea of traffic lights and so forth,
:41:28. > :41:31.but actually saying there is a certain amount of, a level of salt
:41:31. > :41:34.above which no processed food should go at all? No I don't agree
:41:35. > :41:39.with that, I think we should be allowed to eat whatever we want.
:41:39. > :41:42.People know these things are bad for them it. It is very patronising
:41:42. > :41:46.to suggest some how these things are being forced on them. Sometimes
:41:46. > :41:51.these things are cheaper, that is the trick here for people who don't
:41:51. > :41:55.have the money? It is extremely easy to make good food cheaply, a
:41:55. > :41:58.pound of onions costs nothing. are saying people living in
:41:58. > :42:02.horrific circumstances, with horrible places to cook, they don't
:42:02. > :42:07.want to go into the kitchen, and try to prepare a meal on a packet
:42:07. > :42:11.of onions? They want to eat bad food. It is personal choice.
:42:11. > :42:17.think the problem we have is that because the food environment is
:42:17. > :42:21.full of very unhaulty product, choice becomes an -- unhealthy
:42:21. > :42:24.product, choice becomes an illusion. Where you don't have choice, where
:42:24. > :42:29.is personal responsibility. Harry talks about personal responsibility,
:42:29. > :42:32.but it is more a political ideology in this aspect. The science tells
:42:32. > :42:37.us, there are lots of foods marketing at healthy, when they are
:42:37. > :42:40.the complete opposite. A lot of low-fat products loaded with sugar
:42:40. > :42:43.and carbohydrate, where is the informed choice there? You have to
:42:43. > :42:50.be clear and know about nutrition to know what is in these, we won't
:42:50. > :42:53.talk about which ones they are. There are certain orange drinks
:42:53. > :42:56.branded as good for you when clearly they aren't. If you are
:42:56. > :42:59.making an informed choice you have to tell people what is in stuff?
:42:59. > :43:02.Sure, but if you are saying there is no choice, you have to accept
:43:02. > :43:05.there are people who are making the choice. The richer you get the more
:43:05. > :43:08.likely you are to get the choice. The conclusion of the argument is
:43:08. > :43:12.suggesting that the poor are incapable of making that choice.
:43:12. > :43:16.I'm saying they are perfectly capable of making that choice, they
:43:16. > :43:20.know what is bad and what is good for them. The same way the middle-
:43:20. > :43:23.classes do, they should be allowed to eat bad food. At the beginning
:43:23. > :43:26.of the conversation you said that Anna Soubry was brave to speak out,
:43:26. > :43:30.but it is really none of her business? It is worth pointing out
:43:30. > :43:33.the fact that it is the truth that the richer you are the healthier
:43:33. > :43:36.you eat. But at the same time people should be allowed to choose
:43:36. > :43:41.what they eat F they want to get fat they should be allowed to.
:43:41. > :43:47.Where does that put the position of the NHS? It is having huge impacts
:43:47. > :43:50.on the NHS. Obesity-related illnesses cost the NHS �5 billion a
:43:50. > :43:55.year. The obesity rates are getting worse, not better, it will only
:43:55. > :43:58.have a greater impact. This is not a problem for the poor, but the
:43:58. > :44:02.whole population. As a cardiologist I treat people with heart disease
:44:02. > :44:06.on a daily basis, yes, there are people from poor backgrounds who
:44:06. > :44:11.can't afford healthier food, that is where the Government steps in,
:44:11. > :44:16.whether it is subsidising healthy food and taxing. But there are
:44:16. > :44:21.people from affluent backgrounds who have unhealthy diets, and
:44:21. > :44:25.survive heart attacks and they say they wished they knew more about
:44:25. > :44:27.the food and the impact on health. If we learn from history, the most
:44:27. > :44:32.important public health advances happened through regulation,
:44:32. > :44:35.whether it is safe drinking water, smoke-free buildings, not cosy
:44:35. > :44:40.voluntary agreements with the guilty industries. I think the
:44:40. > :44:44.problem is people like bad food, like they like drink and cigarettes,