:00:12. > :00:14.Triple-dip recession? Full on depression? The economy shrinks
:00:14. > :00:18.again. Is the Chancellor's plan shot?
:00:18. > :00:21.Out in the real world, one of life's strivers confronts the
:00:22. > :00:26.elephant in the room. All the bills are rising and we're not getting
:00:26. > :00:31.any extra money ourselves. What do you do? I'm a builder by trade.
:00:31. > :00:34.is that? Slow, very slow. Even London's mayor tells the
:00:34. > :00:39.Chancellor to junk talk of austerity. Is it time for a re-
:00:39. > :00:45.think? We ask the Government? Also tonight, we will have the
:00:45. > :00:51.latest from Mali, Steve Hewlett's there.
:00:51. > :00:56.As the Islamist rebels threaten to ban music in Mali, we talk to the
:00:56. > :01:01.musician who has gathered musicians together to sing about peace in
:01:01. > :01:07.their country. The German comedian, tells us what
:01:07. > :01:11.he would miss if we left the EU. sir talgia, before I moved to
:01:11. > :01:21.Britain, I didn't know how to goose step, if it wasn't for the BBC, I
:01:21. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:27.still wouldn't know. Good evening, flat, stiing nant and sluggish,
:01:27. > :01:30.that is the optists. The rest are warning the economy faces a triple-
:01:30. > :01:34.dip recession, the first the country has seen in modern time.
:01:34. > :01:38.The latest figures show the country's economy shrank by 0.3%,
:01:38. > :01:41.numbers that lin crease the pressure on George Osborne to come
:01:41. > :01:45.-- will increase the pressure on George Osborne to come up with a
:01:45. > :01:48.Plan B and make it grow again. Arguably the biggest name in the
:01:48. > :01:53.Conservative Party called for the Chancellor to junk talk of
:01:53. > :01:56.austerity and crack on with major building projects to revitalise the
:01:56. > :02:06.economy. First, Paul Mason has been in Gravesend to see what it means
:02:06. > :02:09.close up. In a parallel world, where
:02:09. > :02:15.everything had gone right, Britain's trade routes would be
:02:15. > :02:19.awash with exports. Its high streets would be buzzing. Its
:02:20. > :02:23.manufacturing would be out of trouble. But they are not. One
:02:23. > :02:27.negative quarter is not a disaster, but what we are seeing here is the
:02:27. > :02:32.failure of a plan, the Government thought by now the economy would be
:02:32. > :02:36.well down the path of what it calls rebalancing. Away from reliance on
:02:36. > :02:39.state spending, and consumer spending, and towards manufacturing,
:02:39. > :02:44.and exports. That is just not happening fast enough.
:02:44. > :02:49.This is the third time growth has dipped below zero since the Lehman
:02:49. > :02:54.Brothers crisis. This time it has been driven by a 1.5% fall in
:02:54. > :02:58.manufacturing, combined with a one- off dip in oil production to take
:02:58. > :03:01.overall productive industries down by minus 1.8%. This was the first
:03:01. > :03:08.set of figures for two years, where Government spending fell as a
:03:08. > :03:13.driver of GDP, by 0.7%. So, overall, for the past 12 months, the economy
:03:14. > :03:18.has grown by a big, fat zero. And on the streets of Gravesend, in
:03:18. > :03:21.Kent, a town that boomed once, but now is not booming, they have
:03:21. > :03:25.noticed. Dire, I'm not working at the moment,
:03:25. > :03:30.I haven't been at work for the past month, no work. What are wages like
:03:30. > :03:32.when you do work? It goes up and down doesn't it. It depends where
:03:32. > :03:37.there is work, if there is work somewhere sometimes tough take it
:03:37. > :03:42.if it is a little bit less money. That the voice of a carpenter, this
:03:42. > :03:47.of a pub landlord. Does it feel like a triple-dip recession? Yes,
:03:47. > :03:51.very bad. Why? The pub is bad, trade is gone, no wages. What are
:03:51. > :03:56.you doing in the costume? Trying to boost trade. Everyone is waiting
:03:56. > :03:59.for the pay packet, as soon as it is in it is gone on bills, no
:03:59. > :04:03.luxury money. What about you? feel the same, no spare money,
:04:03. > :04:07.everything goes on bills, electric has gone up again. It is constantly
:04:07. > :04:10.rising and nothing's going up in the money, all the bills are rising
:04:11. > :04:16.and everything like that, we are not getting anything extra
:04:16. > :04:20.ourselves. What do you do? I'm a builder by trade. How is that?
:04:20. > :04:23.very slow. When it comes to green shoots amid all of this, economists
:04:23. > :04:27.can't see many. If you look at where the source of demand is
:04:27. > :04:33.coming from in the UK, it is not coming from consumers who are
:04:33. > :04:37.seeing their real wages eaten in to by inflation, it is not coming from
:04:37. > :04:39.banks, which are deleveraging, or the Government in the middle of
:04:40. > :04:43.implementing austerity measures, it is not coming from the global
:04:43. > :04:47.economy either. It is not surprising at all that the UK
:04:47. > :04:50.economy has gone back into stall speed and may dip into recession
:04:50. > :04:55.again. When it comes to long periods of suppressed growth, there
:04:55. > :04:59.is a word for it, depression. This was the shape of the last
:04:59. > :05:04.depression, output falling from 1930, but back up in positive
:05:05. > :05:11.territory by the start of 1934. Now, here's what we have lived through,
:05:11. > :05:14.shallower, but now 12 months longer and leaving the economy smaller
:05:14. > :05:17.than it was five years ago, and nowhere near getting back into
:05:17. > :05:20.positive territory. It is a reminder that Britain face as very
:05:20. > :05:23.tough economic situation. It is a reminder that last year was
:05:23. > :05:27.particularly difficult, both with the problems we have at home,
:05:27. > :05:30.dealing with the debts built up over many years. But also, frankly,
:05:30. > :05:35.the problems in the eurozone, where many of our exports go, which is is
:05:35. > :05:38.now in recession. We can either run away from those problems or
:05:38. > :05:41.confront them. I'm absolutely determined to confront them, so we
:05:41. > :05:47.can create jobs for the people of this country. The Chancellor had
:05:47. > :05:53.prepared for today's news by eating pizza, in Davos, with friend "Dave"
:05:53. > :05:59.and rival "Boris". The London mayor made a speech calling for the
:05:59. > :06:03.Government to junk the rhetoric of austerity and be confident. As for
:06:03. > :06:07.the opposition? We need action now to kick start the recoverry, a
:06:07. > :06:10.temporary VAT cut and bring forward public investment. As Nick Clegg
:06:10. > :06:14.said yesterday, get houses built and people back to work, boost
:06:14. > :06:17.confidence and get demand moving. I'm afraid it looks as if we will
:06:17. > :06:22.have the Government trying to laugh off what is happening in the
:06:22. > :06:24.economy. That is not good enough. In the search for answers,
:06:24. > :06:28.attention is turning to monetary policy, could the Bank of England
:06:28. > :06:33.start targeting, not inflation, but the rate of growth in Britain's now
:06:33. > :06:37.frozen factories and ports. Canadian Martha Kearney takes over
:06:37. > :06:42.at the bank in July, d Mark Kearney, takes over the bank in July, some
:06:42. > :06:45.want that to start a re-think. Should they use monetary policy and
:06:45. > :06:48.the ability of the Bank of England to create money, in different, more
:06:48. > :06:52.aggressive ways, which means that money goes directly and powerfully
:06:52. > :06:55.into the economy. The arrival of a new governor, who certainly is
:06:56. > :07:00.thinking about these sorts of issues, and is aware of these
:07:00. > :07:07.challenges, is, I think, the ideal occasion to re-think the strategy
:07:07. > :07:12.we have been following, which seems to me obvious is not working.
:07:12. > :07:16.causes of today's dip are a mixture of external conditions and domestic
:07:16. > :07:20.ones, but policy is the one thing you can control. You can, if you
:07:20. > :07:24.want, blame the euro crisis, and austerity here, but ultimately
:07:24. > :07:28.today's policy comes down to this. If you say you are going to
:07:28. > :07:34.rebalance the economy, and promote growth, using Government policy,
:07:34. > :07:39.you actually have to have a policy and it has to work.
:07:39. > :07:43.For now, George Osborne is sticking to his policy, though mutterings in
:07:43. > :07:47.the coalition and his party are getting louder.
:07:47. > :07:54.Joining me now is David Gauke, the Exchequer secretary to the Treasury.
:07:54. > :07:58.You must be incredibly disappointed? Obviously we would
:07:58. > :08:01.want stronger growth than in 2012, 2012 is a difficult year, for the
:08:01. > :08:05.UK and other places as well. In fact, the numbers we have seen
:08:05. > :08:10.today are broadly in line with what the Office of Budget Responsibility
:08:10. > :08:14.said last year. If you look over 2012. So not surprising, not really
:08:14. > :08:19.disappointing at all? The fact that the economy contracts in the last
:08:19. > :08:23.quarter of last year is not a big surprise. And there was no growth
:08:23. > :08:26.last year. Clearly we would want growth. The question is why is that
:08:26. > :08:29.happening and what can we do to get growth in the future. The reason
:08:29. > :08:34.why it is happening is we have the eurozone crisis, we have commodity
:08:34. > :08:39.prices higher than we would like, and we have been dealing with the
:08:39. > :08:43.aftereffects of the financial crisis of 2007/08. You could
:08:43. > :08:47.mention the snow if you need more reasons! That is not what the
:08:47. > :08:51.Government has set out but the Office of Budget Responsibility has
:08:51. > :08:53.set out why we were struggling this year. You have managed to achieve
:08:53. > :08:59.something remarkable, you have put the economy into reverse three
:08:59. > :09:04.times, we are heading for a triple- dip recession? The Office of Budget
:09:04. > :09:08.Responsibility predicted that the last quarter of 2012 would be a
:09:08. > :09:13.contraction, they are predicting that the first quarter of 2013, the
:09:13. > :09:16.economy will grow. This is your policy? That is the point I was
:09:16. > :09:20.making a moment or so ago, the reasons why the economy has gone
:09:20. > :09:23.through a difficult spell are because of these particular factors,
:09:23. > :09:27.how do we get growth? I don't believe that borrowing more money
:09:27. > :09:31.is the solution to those problems. What we want to do is make sure
:09:31. > :09:35.that we get lending through to businesses. When you listen to
:09:35. > :09:38.those voices in Gravesend, people saying there is no spare money, the
:09:38. > :09:42.bills are constantly rising, there is no trade, there is no wages, the
:09:42. > :09:48.whole point of your plan for austerity is it was meant to be
:09:48. > :09:51.offset by growth, that of the policy, and the policy has failed?
:09:51. > :09:56.The reasons why growth has been disappointing over the last two
:09:56. > :09:59.years. Disappointing, there has been nothing, it has not grown?
:09:59. > :10:03.has been disappointing for the very reasons I have set out, the
:10:03. > :10:06.question is how do we get that growth. The answer isn't more
:10:06. > :10:09.borrowing that puts at risk higher interest rates, the answer is to
:10:09. > :10:12.try to get rid some of those regulations that hold back
:10:12. > :10:17.businesses, it is about getting money through to businesses, with
:10:17. > :10:19.the funding through lending scheme, it is about switching spending to
:10:19. > :10:22.infrastructure, capital spending. Things like science, David Willetts
:10:22. > :10:25.was on this programme last night setting out what we are doing.
:10:25. > :10:30.Within your own Government and your own party Nick Clegg has admitted
:10:30. > :10:33.those capital spending cuts were a mistake. You have heard from Boris
:10:33. > :10:37.Johnson, the biggest name in your party, saying junk the austerity
:10:37. > :10:41.talk. He's telling the Chancellor to do is. Is there a Plan B now?
:10:41. > :10:44.is absolutely right that we made the case why we had to take very
:10:44. > :10:48.difficult action to deal with the deficit, we needed to make that
:10:48. > :10:52.case. We still need to make that case. You haven't dealt with the
:10:52. > :10:58.deficit, it has actually increased? It is 25% lower than it was. It has
:10:58. > :11:04.increased in the last 12 month. is lower than it was when we came
:11:04. > :11:06.into the office. It increased in the last 12 months, that is where
:11:07. > :11:10.you are? The Office of Budget Responsibility predict the deficit
:11:10. > :11:15.will continue to fall, but we will wait for the time of the budget.
:11:15. > :11:19.The reality is, if we had not taken difficult decisions on spending and
:11:19. > :11:23.tax, we would have a deficit still in similar terms to where we were
:11:23. > :11:26.two years ago, and that would have put our credibility at risk. Most
:11:26. > :11:30.people hearing this, you are talking about credibility and the
:11:30. > :11:33.credit rating, most people will say we don't care about that as much as
:11:34. > :11:38.we care about growth. We need to see things happening in the economy,
:11:38. > :11:42.this is what we feel, every day in our pockets, when do you say, do
:11:42. > :11:46.you know, we got it wrong, time for a U-turn? I tell you why it matters,
:11:46. > :11:49.it matters because we don't have that credibility, we will see
:11:49. > :11:53.interest rates rise, we will see mortgage rates rise, we will see it
:11:53. > :11:56.harder for businesses to get access to finance. So there will be no
:11:56. > :12:00.concession to what is going on now? That is damaging for the economy.
:12:00. > :12:04.You are sticking rigidly to this plan, there will be no turn? It is
:12:04. > :12:07.vital that we are determined to bring down the deficit, but
:12:07. > :12:13.alongside that, we have to continue to do. It is credibility over
:12:13. > :12:17.growth, bluntly? Not at all. That is where we are? There is no
:12:17. > :12:20.tension between the two. A precondition for growth is
:12:20. > :12:24.credibility. There is a tension between the two, that is what you
:12:24. > :12:29.are told, Boris Johnson has said we cannot risk losing confidence, it
:12:29. > :12:34.is time to junk talk of austerity. The IMF has said if things don't
:12:34. > :12:38.get better we need to do austerity slower. Jim O'Neil has said the
:12:39. > :12:44.same, the head of Goldman Sachs, are these voices not credible?
:12:44. > :12:49.need to demonstrate a show of getting our public finances under
:12:49. > :12:53.control, we need to put in place and impli mate the policies we have
:12:53. > :12:55.announced. About support for conditions and infrastructure and a
:12:55. > :13:00.competitive tax system it, those are the steps this Government is
:13:00. > :13:02.taking to ensure we get the long- term growth. There is a very clear
:13:02. > :13:06.desire and strategy by this Government to get growth. But the
:13:06. > :13:11.idea that the solution to these problems is if we borrow �160
:13:11. > :13:15.billion a year, that all those problems go away is nonsense.
:13:16. > :13:22.Great to have you here, if you can hold on we can talk to France
:13:22. > :13:24.O'Grady, the General Secretary of the tuck, and -- TUC, and the
:13:25. > :13:29.former member of the Monetary Policy Committee. What do you make
:13:29. > :13:33.of what we have just heard, France O'Grady, that the solution is not
:13:33. > :13:38.just to borrow more and make cuts? The Government's austerity policy
:13:38. > :13:43.has lost all credibility. Frankly, last time we heard a Conservative-
:13:43. > :13:48.led Government say there is no alternative, it didn't end well. We
:13:48. > :13:51.have got zero growth, austerity is faileding, and employment is still
:13:52. > :13:56.far too high, -- failing, and employment is far too high, with a
:13:56. > :13:59.quarter of all young people long- term unemployed. Real problems with
:14:00. > :14:03.ordinary working people suffering the third year of real pay cuts. We
:14:03. > :14:07.have sucked demand out of the economy. Business confidence is low,
:14:07. > :14:14.because consumer confidence is low. People haven't got money to spend.
:14:14. > :14:18.It was good to hear Nick Clegg say sorry for cutting �22 billion off
:14:18. > :14:24.capital investment, but he also said people need money in their
:14:24. > :14:29.pockets. In which case, why have a 1% cap on benefits and wages, let's
:14:29. > :14:33.look at wages-led growth, a good industrial policy, and some jobs
:14:33. > :14:37.for our young people. Marina Bell, what is the answer? I think the
:14:37. > :14:40.important thing for credibility is that fiscal consolidation,
:14:40. > :14:44.austerity happens, with regard to what is going on in the economy. So
:14:44. > :14:50.that over the cycle, and when the economy recovers, plans are in
:14:50. > :14:55.place to bring the cyclical adjusted current budget deficit
:14:55. > :14:59.back into balance. That is a plan we have, but with a rolling five-
:14:59. > :15:04.year horizon. It should be contingent on where the economy is,
:15:04. > :15:08.and the target to stablise debt as a percentage of GDP, should also be
:15:08. > :15:13.subject to the economy getting back to trend. We shouldn't try to
:15:13. > :15:19.achieve these targets in too fast a time frame. You would agree that we
:15:19. > :15:27.should slow down? Absolutely. Bluntly France O'Grady, you have to
:15:27. > :15:32.the -- bluntly Frances O'Grady you have the minister here what do you
:15:32. > :15:36.want? We want a policy, led by the Prime Minister, that you need to
:15:36. > :15:40.re-think austerity parties, making ordinary working-class families
:15:40. > :15:43.poorer is not -- working families poorer is not going to make the
:15:43. > :15:45.country grow. We need demand back into the economy, and the best way
:15:45. > :15:50.to do that, there is lots of evidence on this, is to put money
:15:50. > :15:54.in the pockets of working people and the poor, because they spent it
:15:55. > :16:00.in the local economy. Where as the rich, tend to save or shove it off
:16:00. > :16:05.to tax havens. So you need to start being fair, you need to start
:16:05. > :16:10.investing for the future, we need to get our infrastructure moving.
:16:10. > :16:14.You need to get some real reform of the banking system, because they
:16:14. > :16:17.put us into this mess, they need to be reformed in order for us to get
:16:17. > :16:22.out of it. Is what you are hearing, and we will put this to the
:16:22. > :16:26.minister in a second, realistic, and what do you expect Mark Kearney
:16:26. > :16:32.to do when he comes in, should the Bank of England have more powers
:16:32. > :16:35.now? The bank has been given an incredible amount of power.
:16:35. > :16:40.terms of bank regulation, for example, do you think they will
:16:40. > :16:45.take that bull bit horns? I would hope that in terms of bank
:16:45. > :16:48.regulation they will go a little bit easier in the prudent policies
:16:48. > :16:56.of raising capital ratios. I think the irony of the situation we are
:16:56. > :16:59.in, is policies that would be prudent in other times likely
:16:59. > :17:03.borrowing, balanced current account budget, high capital ratios, are
:17:03. > :17:08.not the sort of things you should be putting in place in the teeth of
:17:08. > :17:14.a recession. So I hope that there will be a slowdown, perhaps, in
:17:14. > :17:21.pushing up the capital ratios. I would hope that the Government and
:17:21. > :17:26.the banks stick with targeting inflation. Mormonry, as we heard in
:17:26. > :17:32.the film, more aggressive -- more monetary policy, as we heard in the
:17:32. > :17:35.film, more aggressive monetary policy may be required. There are
:17:35. > :17:39.signs in the last few months that the healthy levels might be
:17:39. > :17:43.reversing. Let's put some of the blunt things
:17:43. > :17:47.people are talking about now, a cut in VAT, a cut in national insurance
:17:47. > :17:51.contributions, are these the things that we are going to see in the
:17:51. > :17:54.March budget, should we? Not if we can't afford them. That is the
:17:54. > :17:59.challenge. It is all very well, and I heard Ed Balls today saying we
:17:59. > :18:05.should do all this, we should cut these taxes and spend more into
:18:05. > :18:08.this area. What that would result in is more borrowing, I'm afraid
:18:08. > :18:12.that is...You Are already spending more on the welfare budget because
:18:12. > :18:15.more people are out of work and suffering? For the reasons I
:18:15. > :18:20.outlined earlier, these are difficult times for the economy,
:18:21. > :18:26.there is that flexibility within our current plans, that may happen.
:18:26. > :18:29.The idea of a stimulus, that we choose to enter into, is just more
:18:29. > :18:33.borrowing, and I'm afraid, the answer that we get from Labour all
:18:33. > :18:38.the time is borrow more. That's always their answer, that is what
:18:38. > :18:43.they do in Government as well. don't want to taper cuts at this
:18:43. > :18:47.point? The difficulty if we try to go for revering things, if we try
:18:47. > :18:56.to go for -- reversing things, if we try to go for big tax cuts we
:18:56. > :18:59.can't fund from elsewhere, we can't and we find interest rates going up
:18:59. > :19:04.and you take more money out of the economy. This is full steam ahead,
:19:04. > :19:06.Plan A, nothing has changed as of today? The strategy of getting the
:19:06. > :19:09.public finances under control, while at the same time taking some
:19:09. > :19:12.of the difficult decisions to ensure the UK can grow is the right
:19:12. > :19:16.approach, it is not going to always be popular, there will be
:19:16. > :19:19.resistance to it, and it's not easy when the world economy is going
:19:19. > :19:23.through some of the challenges it is at the moment. But it is the
:19:23. > :19:26.right approach for the long-term for this country.
:19:26. > :19:29.Thank you. A British surveillance plane has
:19:29. > :19:35.taken off to support French military prayings against shraelist
:19:35. > :19:41.rebels in Mali, earlier today -- Islamist rebels in Mali, earlier
:19:41. > :19:48.today planes bombed positions, and a town has been retaken. We spent
:19:48. > :19:54.the day in Bamako, I I asked what the mood was like there? The first
:19:54. > :19:59.thing that strikes you here is the sheer sense of relief that everyone
:19:59. > :20:03.I have spoken to feels. They have been saved by the French from all
:20:03. > :20:07.the problems they foresaw, if the Islamists had come here. This is a
:20:07. > :20:12.very poor country, of course, but a country that is very rich in
:20:12. > :20:16.culture, with a fairly easy going form of Islam, very famous for its
:20:16. > :20:21.music and other forms of culture. People, of course, heard all the
:20:22. > :20:26.news that was happening in the rebel-controlled north, all the
:20:26. > :20:29.punishments, for smoking, the punishments for women who were
:20:29. > :20:33.unveiled, and the amputations for theft, they were terrified that
:20:33. > :20:38.would come here. The problem now is the sheer weight of expectations
:20:38. > :20:40.that are being put on the French. People not only expect the French
:20:40. > :20:45.effectively to liberate the whole country from the Islamists, but
:20:45. > :20:49.they also want the French, their former colonial masters, who
:20:49. > :20:55.achieve some kind of political fix here, to reintroduce democracy, and
:20:55. > :20:59.even a better form of democracy than people had before the French
:20:59. > :21:02.left. Whether the French really have the appetite to sort all that
:21:02. > :21:08.out is very much open to question. What does that mean for the
:21:08. > :21:13.operation, how long do the French have to be there? Well, the
:21:13. > :21:19.operation to drive the Islamists back is proceeding fairly steadily.
:21:19. > :21:24.At first, with French air strikes, then French Special Forces, and
:21:24. > :21:32.then the malian army behind, that but the really big fight, foit in
:21:32. > :21:37.the desert, the fight for the two many Islamist-controlled towns,
:21:37. > :21:43.Timbuktu we don't know where that will go. We don't know whether or
:21:43. > :21:50.not French public opinion will change. We have heard of reprisal
:21:50. > :21:54.killings by the Mali army. That is France's main ally. What is
:21:54. > :22:00.supposed to happen is that behind the French are supposed to come
:22:00. > :22:07.these contingents of west African forces from Nigeria, Togo, Ivory
:22:07. > :22:11.Coast and so on. But even a special adviser to the mally President said
:22:11. > :22:17.to me today that he -- Mali President said to me today he
:22:17. > :22:21.wasn't sure if these forces could cope in unfamiliar terrain. It was
:22:21. > :22:26.kite-flying under the Taliban, ballroom dancing under Mao, history
:22:26. > :22:32.under Pol Pot, the first impulse of a dictator is to control the people
:22:32. > :22:37.under the freedom it bans. If the Islamists of west Africa get their
:22:38. > :22:43.way, the next addition to that will be music in Mali. Enter the mally
:22:43. > :22:48.musician who has gathered 40 musicians to sing in their country
:22:48. > :22:52.and against the imposition of Sharia Law. Nowhere does music have
:22:52. > :22:55.political importance than in the vast desert state of Mali. Now in
:22:55. > :23:03.exile in southern France, she talked to Steve Smith.
:23:03. > :23:07.At a sound check for a concert near Marseille tonight, it is rising
:23:07. > :23:15.star Fatoumata Diawara. But her thoughts are 2,000 miles away, with
:23:15. > :23:18.the conflict in Mali? I decided to go in Mali in the summer to do the
:23:18. > :23:26.holy day. People said don't stay in Mali, you have to go back because
:23:26. > :23:36.you are in danger in Mali now. I said, OK, so it is time to do
:23:36. > :23:49.
:23:49. > :23:59.Can you tell me about this song you have recorded with the other
:23:59. > :24:02.
:24:02. > :24:12.musicians from Mali? Every artist expresses themselves about how they
:24:12. > :24:12.
:24:12. > :24:17.are feeling, the first one is peace, the second one it is about uniting,
:24:17. > :24:26.between our brothers from the north and the people from the south. As
:24:26. > :24:30.musicians we needed to express that, talk about reality, be a voice of
:24:30. > :24:37.those people. Music is very important, more important than
:24:37. > :24:40.politics. Also we have a very bad situation, very bad politics kal
:24:40. > :24:49.situation now. And the people really -- political situation now,
:24:49. > :24:52.the people really need some hope. We know many shocking things are
:24:52. > :24:56.happening in Mali at the moment, there is mistreatment of musicians,
:24:56. > :25:06.we have heard of instruments being confiscated, recording equipment
:25:06. > :25:13.smashed? It is also one of our fights to protect our music. In the
:25:13. > :25:18.last few minutes months music is in danger in mal-- the last few months,
:25:18. > :25:23.music is in danger in Mali, the Islamists want to stop music.
:25:23. > :25:30.what we understand, some of the people in the north, the Islamists,
:25:30. > :25:35.regard music as wrong and yet it is a vital part of your country's
:25:35. > :25:42.tradition, isn't it? I don't know which kind of music they want. They
:25:42. > :25:50.want us to sing only about God. So we can't do that. We can't do that.
:25:50. > :25:55.We needed to express ourselves, we need to express the many problems
:25:55. > :26:00.of Mali by music. We do everything by this. Politics, everything.
:26:00. > :26:05.condition of women, you sing about that? Emancipations, you know.
:26:05. > :26:10.That's the way that I decided to talk to my generation, by music. I
:26:10. > :26:15.have this kind of writing, very new for my country, and the people are
:26:15. > :26:19.very receptive of that, they love that. My generation like my kind of
:26:19. > :26:25.writing, because it is more direct. If I stopped that, what are we
:26:25. > :26:35.gonna do, what will we be? We will lose everything. Our soul, our
:26:35. > :26:45.culture, our ancestoral gifts. Our spiritual things, the spirit of
:26:45. > :26:52.
:26:52. > :26:56.Mali is music. You were in the country recently,
:26:56. > :27:00.what is happening with your family, and your friends, how are they
:27:00. > :27:04.while this is going on? We don't know what is going to happen
:27:04. > :27:11.tomorrow. Politic cleel we don't have anybody who can -- politically
:27:11. > :27:18.we don't have anybody who can really help us. That is the second
:27:18. > :27:25.problem, very important now. To really make us a very sad. I have
:27:25. > :27:30.many friends who are artists, who play on the records, very great
:27:30. > :27:39.artists in Mali, nobody has gigs now. We can't play. You can't play
:27:39. > :27:45.at home? No. Because it is too dangerous? It is very dangerous. We
:27:45. > :27:52.can't have a kamikaze to come and explode everything. We are very
:27:52. > :28:02.worried. Every artist is really happy to do this project, and they
:28:02. > :28:06.
:28:06. > :28:11.thing, I hope, so it will bring a big hope for the mally people.
:28:11. > :28:15.Any friends in Europe are good right now, the German newspaper has
:28:15. > :28:22.run an article begging us to stay in the EU. Listing ten reasons why
:28:22. > :28:26.Europe needs us. Before we go we offer our own repost, a German
:28:26. > :28:30.stand-up median gives us a list of what he will miss if we left the
:28:30. > :28:36.European Union. What does Britain do best, celebrating incompetence,
:28:36. > :28:39.and a continent of self-deprecation, the idea you can laugh off failure.
:28:39. > :28:48.It doesn't matter how bad you mess up in your line of work, as long as
:28:48. > :28:51.you can tell the tale of your underachievement in a funny way.
:28:51. > :28:56.Britain is all about a great sense of humour, and nostalgia, before I
:28:56. > :29:00.moved to Britain, I didn't know how to goose step. If it wasn't for the
:29:00. > :29:05.BBC I still wouldn't know how to. The Dunkirk spirit, it is very
:29:05. > :29:10.British, but probably not a very good example, if that was all about
:29:10. > :29:14.Britain getting out of Europe. Then sectarianism, I love sectarianism,
:29:14. > :29:22.but in Scotland it's brilliant sectarianism, it makes for such
:29:23. > :29:30.great football. And in a way I understand it is a blight on almost
:29:30. > :29:35.every other aspect of life, those 90 minutes on a Saturday afternoon
:29:36. > :29:40.it is worth it. Alcohol, at home I'm an alcoholic, here I'm joly.
:29:40. > :29:44.Free schools, even if they open with a school with the best of
:29:44. > :29:47.intention, Ofsted will make them jump through so answer hoops they
:29:47. > :29:51.will be mental by the end of it T But it doesn't matter, what this
:29:51. > :29:58.country is all about is tolerance. Britain, very good to us foreigners,
:29:58. > :30:03.you hole date us. You don't welcome us, you don't welcome us, but you
:30:03. > :30:07.tolerate us, that is a great British virttu. There is something
:30:07. > :30:12.you really dislike, but you can't be bothered to do anything about it,
:30:12. > :30:15.at home we call that lazy cynicism, here it is tolerance. The biggest
:30:15. > :30:18.problem if Britain leaves the European Union, people in Berlin
:30:18. > :30:25.will have to pay for more their After Eights, so, please, stay.
:30:25. > :30:28.Please. There you go, you heard it from
:30:28. > :30:34.here first. Tonight on Review, Sarah Churchwell,
:30:34. > :30:40.James Fox and Lionel Shriver join me to talk about four giants,
:30:40. > :30:44.Abraham Lincoln in the hands of Spielberg, the real Orwell season,
:30:44. > :30:49.and Turn of the Screw done by Hammer Theatre of Horror, and all