:00:10. > :00:14.This programme contains repetitive images from the start.
:00:14. > :00:17.Britain deploys troops to west Africa, more than 300 to train and
:00:18. > :00:22.shore up the military, not to fight. Are we going to get dragged into
:00:22. > :00:25.someone else's war. After French paratroopers helped secure Timbuktu,
:00:25. > :00:31.David Cameron heads for Nigeria, to meet their Prime Minister. What
:00:31. > :00:38.will our role be, and for how long? We're in Mali.
:00:38. > :00:44.Anti-semetic, anti-Israeli, or just anti-Netanyahu. After Rupert
:00:44. > :00:52.Murdoch apologises for Gerald Scarfe'S grotesque cartoon in the
:00:52. > :00:56.Sunday time, we have our panel to discuss whether or not it is anti-
:00:56. > :01:01.Semitic. Plastic pollution is killing wildlife across the world,
:01:01. > :01:06.it causes hormonal changes to life in the oceans, what is it doing to
:01:06. > :01:10.us humans. The plastic particles are sponges for other contaminants,
:01:10. > :01:13.they absorb the materials and become toxic. The Government
:01:13. > :01:16.finally unveils its changes to childcare, in weeks where we see
:01:16. > :01:20.financial help given to millionaires and struggling mothers
:01:20. > :01:24.alike, we consider universalism in the age of austerity. Why shouldn't
:01:24. > :01:27.it go to someone like me, I have paid my tax, I'm not earning now, I
:01:27. > :01:31.should be entitled to something back from the Government. Even
:01:31. > :01:35.though your husband earns well? Even if my husband earns well.
:01:36. > :01:41.There is no stopping Hilary Mantel, tonight she's added the Costa price
:01:41. > :01:44.to her two man bookers, for her portrayal of Thomas Cromwell.
:01:44. > :01:48.We will hear from her -- ol letter Cromwell. We will hear from her
:01:48. > :01:51.shortly. -- Oliver Cromwell. We will hear
:01:51. > :01:53.from her shortly. Good evening, when the Defence
:01:53. > :01:57.Secretary announced today that approximately 330 British troops
:01:57. > :02:03.are being sent to west Africa, to support the French mission against
:02:03. > :02:08.Islamist rebels in Mali, 40 military advisers to Mali itself,
:02:08. > :02:11.and others to train in nearby countries and others made up of
:02:11. > :02:15.support personnel, Philip Hammond assured MPs the soldiers wouldn't
:02:15. > :02:19.have a combat role. They are very clear about the risks of mission
:02:19. > :02:25.creep. According it a previous incumbent in the job, Malcolm
:02:25. > :02:31.Rifkind, there was the risk of years of asymmetrical conflict
:02:31. > :02:36.without solution. In a moment we will go live to the
:02:36. > :02:40.Malian capital, first, here is our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban.
:02:40. > :02:43.So, with French intervention in Mali just weeks old, Britain has
:02:43. > :02:48.joined the fray. Hundreds of troops are to be sent on what the
:02:48. > :02:52.Government insists is not a combat mission. It is not our intention to
:02:52. > :02:56.deploy combat troops, we are very clear about the risks of mission
:02:56. > :03:02.creep, and we have defined very carefully the support that we are
:03:02. > :03:06.willing and able to provide to the French and the Malian authorities.
:03:06. > :03:10.He had been responding to fears that the Helmand mission too had
:03:10. > :03:15.started with hopes that not a shot would be fired. We need greater
:03:15. > :03:18.clarity, Mr Speaker, on the exact role of our British troops. The
:03:18. > :03:23.Government has said that they are not going to be placed in a combat
:03:23. > :03:26.role, but there are a host of grey areas between combat roles and
:03:26. > :03:30.support roles. Given America's reluctance to lead,
:03:30. > :03:34.at the moment, this type intervention could become the norm.
:03:34. > :03:39.Western countries have very few forces to spare, and even France,
:03:39. > :03:44.with a few thousand in Mali, has talked with cutting back soon.
:03:44. > :03:50.So, increasingly, the emphasis will be on training up African troops to
:03:50. > :03:54.do the job. Britain already has 160 or so
:03:54. > :03:57.troops in East Africa, centered on Kenia. They have helped train
:03:57. > :04:01.African contingents in Somalia, which is now regarded as something
:04:01. > :04:06.of a model for future operations. There is an enduring commitment of
:04:06. > :04:11.about 50 in Sierra Leone, and a small team in South Africa too.
:04:11. > :04:18.Today's announcement of 40 trainers to Mali, and 200 to other parts of
:04:18. > :04:24.west Africa, follows the deployment of 60 RAF personnel to Senegal, to
:04:24. > :04:28.support a Sentinel surveillance plane, and 20 to Bamako to assist
:04:28. > :04:31.with airlifting operations. The shift signalled eight days ago is
:04:31. > :04:35.becoming real. More than ever this evolving threat demands an
:04:35. > :04:39.international response. It must be one that is tough, intelligent,
:04:39. > :04:43.patient and based on strong international partnerships. First,
:04:43. > :04:47.we should be clear that this murderous violence requires a
:04:48. > :04:53.strong security response. We must be realistic and hard-headed about
:04:53. > :05:01.the threats that we face. Our role is to support the Governments of
:05:01. > :05:04.combat this menace, as many are doing at a high cost.
:05:05. > :05:12.Contingents from several west African countries, co-ordinated by
:05:12. > :05:19.will be several thousand in all. But whether that will be enough,
:05:20. > :05:29.and how effective they might be, are open to question. The force is
:05:29. > :05:38.is going to have to be supported and backed by that country. Whether
:05:38. > :05:44.Nigeria can afford to send many It already has troops deployed, or
:05:44. > :05:47.committed to Somalia and Sudan, and is currently fighting two counter
:05:47. > :05:51.insurgency campaigns at home. France's assault on Timbuktu
:05:51. > :06:00.Airport, and taking of the town, has scattered the opposition. It
:06:00. > :06:10.may also have been enough to create and the more numerous Tuareg
:06:10. > :06:12.
:06:12. > :06:14.seperatists who play host to them. had now split from the Al-Qaeda
:06:14. > :06:19.militants. So far so good, then, for the
:06:19. > :06:22.French intervention. In the longer term, it could get more complicated,
:06:22. > :06:27.though. The Malian army that collapsed a few month ago, had,
:06:27. > :06:32.afterall, been trained by foreign advisers. And the British found
:06:33. > :06:40.several years back in Sierra Leone, that one of their advicey teams got
:06:40. > :06:46.kidnapped, and they had -- advisory to rescue them, taking many lives
:06:46. > :06:56.in the process. The aid promised by success.
:06:56. > :06:59.
:06:59. > :07:03.operating across the country, it business. But given the cuts to
:07:03. > :07:10.forces, their existing commitments, and public anxiety about entering
:07:10. > :07:17.another shooting war, the recent that outside powers are prepared to
:07:17. > :07:20.do. What's the reaction there to the news of the deployment in
:07:20. > :07:27.Bamako? Well, I talked to the Malian military spokesman this
:07:27. > :07:33.evening. He said the news of the British involvement was very
:07:33. > :07:38.welcome. For most ordinary Malians on the streets, they are much more
:07:38. > :07:48.aware at the moment, at least. French inter, and the support of
:07:48. > :07:49.
:07:49. > :07:58.other west African -- French troops, the to get the north fully under
:07:58. > :08:03.control. We shouldn't look past the idea of guerrilla war going too far.
:08:03. > :08:06.The speed of the French advance shows there is a comparatively
:08:07. > :08:12.small number, it appears, of hardened Jihadi fighters. They
:08:12. > :08:18.don't have that much support among the general population. And the
:08:18. > :08:25.tactical alliance that they formed last year with ethnic Tuareg
:08:25. > :08:28.seperatists, now appears to be seperatists, want, if that is still
:08:28. > :08:31.possible, a negotiated route to awe Monday me. While everybody was
:08:31. > :08:36.really shock -- autonomy. While everybody was really shocked last
:08:36. > :08:40.year by the speed that the Islamists took the north. That was
:08:40. > :08:43.partly due to the Malian army being in disarray following the coup last
:08:43. > :08:48.year. Maybe those Islamists overreached themselves by moving
:08:48. > :08:52.south as they did at the beginning of this year, and therefore,
:08:52. > :08:56.provoking the French intervention. As we heard in the film one of the
:08:56. > :08:59.Tuareg leaders said they are indeed breaking away. Joining me is John
:08:59. > :09:09.Deverell, former director of defence and diplomacy at theed MoD,
:09:09. > :09:10.
:09:10. > :09:20.crisis resolution, and assisted several African Governments on
:09:20. > :09:28.a former Colonel and assistant to Sierra Leone crisis, in his first
:09:28. > :09:32.British interview. First of all, do you think, of us going in a
:09:32. > :09:36.possibility of mission creep. My own view is this could happen. It
:09:36. > :09:40.is possible, but very unlikely. I think we will see in the
:09:40. > :09:46.experiences of the last few years. Clearly there are risks in terms of
:09:46. > :09:48.Whilst we are only there in a training capacity, there will be a
:09:48. > :09:55.need to potentially defend ourselves. Because exactly as what
:09:55. > :09:59.there could be a kidnap, or, indeed, British training forces could be
:09:59. > :10:03.operations like this, unless we are prepared to deal with the risks,
:10:03. > :10:07.which are themselves a measure of our sincerity in taking on the
:10:07. > :10:11.operation in the first place. the point about mission creep, what
:10:11. > :10:20.is your view? What Malcolm Rifkind said, is without a political
:10:20. > :10:30.In Sierra Leone, funnily enough, it is a similarity here, we were
:10:30. > :10:31.
:10:31. > :10:36.focused, from the beginning, for role to play in bolstering up the
:10:36. > :10:41.local forces, and it was very much tied into a regional view of the
:10:41. > :10:46.situation, and a political solution. In Mali, at the moment, I think
:10:46. > :10:51.that is going to be the focus. Our force, from what I see, seems to be
:10:51. > :10:56.very much designed on the medium- term state, the training, much of
:10:56. > :11:00.which won't happen in Mali. Part of an EU training mission, and then
:11:01. > :11:10.the various assets, intelligence assets, which are really going to
:11:11. > :11:12.
:11:12. > :11:17.Mali, to be able to capitalise on to go hear the report on the Tuareg
:11:17. > :11:20.political -- heartening to hear the It may be in terms of a future
:11:20. > :11:24.solution to Mali, something on the political side working well to do
:11:24. > :11:28.it. As was said, there is a possibility the trainers could be
:11:28. > :11:32.targeted. You have been in a position where there had to be a
:11:32. > :11:42.complete change of gear in Sierra Leone, that is very much possible.
:11:42. > :11:44.
:11:44. > :11:54.countries but in Mali itself, where that is true. We have a small force
:11:54. > :11:59.
:11:59. > :12:09.Mali, the French are in the lead what they are intending to do, and
:12:09. > :12:10.
:12:10. > :12:17.political discussions. I think the important post-9/11, the Jihadist
:12:17. > :12:23.dealing with there. We were dealing with something that was a potential
:12:23. > :12:31.failed state. Earlier on today about failed states being a much
:12:31. > :12:34.That issue about Mali, the Government not being entirely
:12:34. > :12:36.needing to be shored up repeatedly, having problems in the north. It
:12:36. > :12:42.could be as David Cameron has said and said again on his way to
:12:42. > :12:46.Algeria, before he goes to Algeria, this is a generational move. A
:12:46. > :12:52.generational move doesn't sound like two or three years? You have
:12:52. > :12:58.an interesting paradox, on the one operation this involves, on the
:12:58. > :13:02.Leone is indicative, as other places have been, in the dangers of
:13:02. > :13:12.taking our attention away from somewhere, because we think the
:13:12. > :13:20.to take a wide view, the classic case of the needor burden-sharing.
:13:20. > :13:29.As Mark has said we have limited numbers, if more were needed, how
:13:30. > :13:39.resources, certainly in the short- term, which is why nations need to
:13:40. > :13:41.
:13:41. > :13:51.support each other in this venture. British might be called on to give
:13:51. > :14:01.
:14:01. > :14:04.difficult situation very quickly our specialist advice, our training
:14:04. > :14:09.and our intelligence assets can be exactly the right level, which
:14:09. > :14:18.gives support without getting us tied into a long haul ourselves.
:14:18. > :14:24.A cartoon in the Sunday Times, by one of Britain's most famous and
:14:24. > :14:33.depicting the Israely Prime Minister building a blood red wall
:14:33. > :14:39.called a furore. The caption read "let the peace continue", the board
:14:39. > :14:45.of British Jews reported the picture, saying it is reminiscent
:14:45. > :14:55.of the pictures found in the anti- semetic press. Rupert Murdoch
:14:55. > :14:56.
:14:56. > :15:00.described the cartoon as grow tes international Holocaust day. He
:15:00. > :15:03.says he has never been anti-Semitic. The controversy has stirred up
:15:03. > :15:10.different sentiments in different parts of the Jewish community, not
:15:10. > :15:18.all agree it is anti-Semitic. One Jewish newspaper described it as
:15:18. > :15:21.grossly unfashion but not anti- Semitic. Firs I'm joined by the --
:15:21. > :15:26.first I'm joined by my guests. When you opened the paper on Sunday and
:15:26. > :15:36.saw the cartoon, what was your first reaction? I just saw a
:15:36. > :15:45.cartoon. This was one fair, this was offensive on Holocaust Memorial
:15:45. > :15:54.but it is political comment. One might argue it is bourne out of a
:15:54. > :16:02.us depict Israel and understand Israel in this way. As comment I
:16:02. > :16:08.didn't see it as anti-semetic, there was no big noses, or none of
:16:08. > :16:13.that Nazi imagery found in anti- Semitic cartoons. You would defend
:16:13. > :16:20.the right of the artist to be hard- hitting what about the timing?
:16:20. > :16:26.is very unfortunate. It takes me back ten years to a cartoon of Dave
:16:26. > :16:34.Brown, of Arial Sharon eating a baby. That appeared on Holocaust
:16:34. > :16:43.similar stir. timing and he's not anti-Semitic,
:16:43. > :16:50.and he didn't think it was? I know any are anti-Semitic. Do you think
:16:50. > :16:56.there is a particular issue. I mean, tell me about the blood libel, the
:16:57. > :17:04.idea that there is blood cementing the bricks in the wall. A lot of
:17:04. > :17:11.is? It is this 19th century notion that Jews would eat the blod of
:17:12. > :17:19.children. It goes back to 1144. Christian children to use their
:17:19. > :17:28.is the problem with visual imagery, I think it is the blood that has
:17:28. > :17:38.that mean, in essence, that you deibgt -- blood in any cartoon
:17:38. > :17:39.
:17:39. > :17:46.That is a taboo? It is a bit of a taboo. This whole subject, religion
:17:46. > :17:50.is an emotional minefield, as the to it as. You have to tread very
:17:50. > :17:55.carefully. If you think that this cartoon is simply a political
:17:55. > :17:59.cartoon. Is it always legitimate, do you think, to attack a political,
:17:59. > :18:05.Netanyahu was democratically elected, if people don't think he's
:18:05. > :18:15.doing a good job, he's always a legitimate target? It depends on
:18:15. > :18:17.
:18:17. > :18:27.how you attack him, the last time was political comment and not anti-
:18:27. > :18:32.of different Israeli flags if your recalled, and in the cartoon --
:18:33. > :18:38.furlled and in the cartoon they turned into missiles with the Star
:18:38. > :18:44.of David on them and he's depicted as a puppetmaster? That made no
:18:44. > :18:50.sense without anti-semitism, the notion of Israel as a puppetmaster.
:18:50. > :19:00.I hope the ambassador you will have on in a minute will forgive me,
:19:00. > :19:01.
:19:01. > :19:09.Israel is crass in its diplomacy, rather than Israeli. Is the whole
:19:09. > :19:13.lot to vilify the Jews. Is that a bit of history a lot of people
:19:13. > :19:19.don't know or don't care about. Do we have to, as it were, get past
:19:19. > :19:25.that? It wasn't only the Nazi, if you look at mainstream press after
:19:25. > :19:30.the wa, especially in Australia, you get grotesque, Jewish
:19:30. > :19:35.stereotypes, hook-nosed, wealthy Jewish bankers, week after week
:19:35. > :19:45.after week, in the national press. It is nothing compared to the sort
:19:45. > :19:55.
:19:55. > :20:05.of imagery we have seen here. Steve Bell made the point on the
:20:05. > :20:13.radio this morning, he said that Mr batted an eyelid. Which was a very,
:20:13. > :20:19.he was right, but it was a very thought to have killed, what,
:20:19. > :20:27.60,000 people in the last year, or been poncable for their deaths, in
:20:27. > :20:32.the last incursion to Gaza 158 Netanyahu are considered to be
:20:32. > :20:37.similar figure, without comment. I would like to turn to the
:20:37. > :20:44.ambassador to the UK, Daniel Taub. Clearly Hugo and Tim have a
:20:45. > :20:50.different view to you. Why are they wrong, and you believe it is an ity
:20:50. > :20:53.Semitic cartoon? I'm not sure if that is the main question here.
:20:53. > :20:59.Board of Deputies of British Jews said clearly that was what they
:20:59. > :21:04.believed? In a statement I put out on this, I did point out I thought
:21:04. > :21:14.this cartoon, which clearly echos images that have been used to
:21:14. > :21:20.from medieval times. It is not that demonise Jews but in Nazi times
:21:20. > :21:22.atmosphere that led to these disasters, these are images that
:21:23. > :21:27.have led to vicious murder and genocide, even. I think that coming
:21:27. > :21:30.from Israel, there is another cause for concern. Unfortunately, images
:21:30. > :21:34.like this are all too familiar to anyone from the Middle East,
:21:34. > :21:38.because we see them general low in the most extreme elements of --
:21:38. > :21:44.generally in the most extreme elements of the Arab press, where
:21:44. > :21:51.they are used to incite hatred, as part of a culture, including in
:21:51. > :21:58.suicide bombers. That is the background you say in
:21:58. > :22:08.the Middle East, but of course that of the concerns we are seeing is
:22:08. > :22:12.
:22:12. > :22:21.Murdoch, but the editor of the paper today he actually apologised
:22:21. > :22:29.unreservedly and said it was have heard said that there aren't
:22:29. > :22:36.other cartoons. The blood, are you not allowed to have blood? With
:22:36. > :22:46.complexity, but the notion of a Jew withed blood, is something, which I
:22:46. > :22:48.
:22:48. > :22:57.aware of. There is another question. semitism question isn't the real
:22:57. > :23:02.fair and acceptable comment? My feelings as an Israeli is clearly
:23:02. > :23:07.it isn't. The wall here is a to build. The decision to construct
:23:07. > :23:17.-- Israeli wanted to build. The decision to construct the barrier
:23:17. > :23:17.
:23:17. > :23:22.was taken after a month where there small parts a wall, and it is
:23:22. > :23:29.would agree but and many would not. Because Binyamin Netanyahu is a
:23:29. > :23:39.very grown-up politician, he has times. Surely it is legitimate, as
:23:39. > :23:40.
:23:40. > :23:44.idea of the construction of the Netanyahu's, it was actually the
:23:44. > :23:54.previous Government. The notion have been referred to has anything
:23:54. > :23:55.
:23:55. > :24:01.to the -- misleading, far from a were a resuscitation of the Israeli
:24:01. > :24:05.potentially deliberately misleading. Is there a danger that by the
:24:05. > :24:09.reaction to this, a perfectly legitimate reaction, that there is
:24:09. > :24:13.a danger of shutting down argument? Anybody who has spent more than
:24:13. > :24:17.five minutes in Israel will not be afraid we are shutting down
:24:17. > :24:23.argument. We have lively debate and cartoons, but I don't think that
:24:23. > :24:26.respecting lively debate means that barred. I think everybody in
:24:26. > :24:33.newspapers concerned, and credit to the Sunday Times for apologising
:24:33. > :24:38.for this terrible mistake. You know, when historic and current
:24:38. > :24:43.sensitivities have to be respected. Later in the programme, we will be
:24:43. > :24:48.speaking to Hilary Mantel who has just won the Costa prize. First,
:24:48. > :24:56.you may have seen dramatic images of plastic debris left over from
:24:56. > :25:02.miles from where people leave. We know the stuff we can see. It can
:25:02. > :25:09.affect wildlife, seals around our coastline, to the albatross living
:25:09. > :25:19.in the ark pel geo. What are the plastic we can't see, tiny
:25:19. > :25:28.particles on other creatures and on Albatross spend most of their time
:25:28. > :25:33.at sea. Only venturing on land to raise their young.
:25:33. > :25:40.These legendary birds populate the Hawaiian islands of the north
:25:40. > :25:46.Plastic washed into the oceans from people living thousands of miles
:25:46. > :25:56.away is killing them. We can see with our own eyes the affect that
:25:56. > :25:59.
:25:59. > :26:07.having an impact that is much more far reaching. A tome from the BBC's
:26:07. > :26:08.natural history unit, filmed here broadcast next year. They found
:26:08. > :26:14.turtles nesting in amongst plastic bottles, cigarette lighters and
:26:14. > :26:17.toys. And they found dead and dying birds. Albatross parents,
:26:18. > :26:25.unwittingly killing their young by feeding their chicks plastic,
:26:25. > :26:29.carried in as they forage for food in the sea. Some chicks die when
:26:29. > :26:34.sharp plastic punctures their bodies, others from star vague, as
:26:34. > :26:42.their stomachs fill with plastic they can't digest. You saw
:26:42. > :26:46.Yeah, what we found is every day we would be filming and there would be
:26:46. > :26:51.more and more carcasses on the beach. We can't tell ourselves what
:26:51. > :26:56.it was that killed them, what we do know from American scientists is
:26:56. > :27:04.they have autopsyed many of these birds, and they have found plastic
:27:05. > :27:11.in every single stomach of the dead bird. Ellen was part of the crew
:27:11. > :27:17.These are examples of the kinds of things found on the island.
:27:17. > :27:20.tops, the arm of a child's doll. She showed us some of the items
:27:20. > :27:24.scientists have found in albatross stomachs. There is this really
:27:24. > :27:32.jagged bit of plas he can. There is lots of different -- plastic. There
:27:32. > :27:37.is lots of different plastics from lots of different origins. Some of
:27:37. > :27:47.the plastic is illegally tipped at sea or litter from fishing, most
:27:47. > :27:50.
:27:50. > :28:00.machines. But how does it get here? Floating debris and plastic is
:28:00. > :28:02.
:28:02. > :28:12.carried to the Hawaiian archipelago, by systems and winds. It sits in
:28:12. > :28:15.
:28:15. > :28:21.the north tropical high, made up of It is one of five giantic
:28:21. > :28:26.interconnected systems of ocean currents, each spiralling around a
:28:26. > :28:31.central point, drawing material inwards, which carries the plastic
:28:31. > :28:37.to Hawaii. These spirals can eject material out towards the Arctic and
:28:37. > :28:44.Antarctic, spreading material across the globe over time. It is
:28:44. > :28:52.in the Pacific will occur in the Atlantic. Just how far does the
:28:52. > :29:02.problem of plastic in the ocean see if it can be found in the
:29:02. > :29:12.coastal waters of Britain. Simon Vauxhall from the National
:29:12. > :29:12.
:29:12. > :29:17.net through the water, the water but all the particles and the
:29:17. > :29:25.plankton are trapped within the net. They eventually come into this
:29:25. > :29:29.bottle at the end. minutes, and it will allow us to
:29:29. > :29:35.filter through around 400 tonnes of water.
:29:35. > :29:39.There has been a lot of research in the United States looking at how
:29:40. > :29:47.the plastic gets into the food chain. Certainly it is shown it
:29:47. > :29:53.gets into the valves, the mussels and the oysters in the seabed, they
:29:53. > :29:59.it. As we are filtering the water. They concentrate the plastics, it
:29:59. > :30:09.has been effect. It turns some of them into hem MAFF free indicts, we
:30:09. > :30:11.
:30:11. > :30:15.don't know -- hermafphrodites, and chain these plastics go. The idea
:30:15. > :30:20.that these plastics can cause disturbing sex changes might sound
:30:20. > :30:26.bad enough. Another worrying affect is beginning to emerge. That is the
:30:26. > :30:35.filtration of just under 400 tonnes of water. We can see a few feathers
:30:35. > :30:41.to the lab and have a look under the microscope to see exactly what
:30:41. > :30:48.we have got. We can't see chunks of plastic debris like the pieces the
:30:48. > :30:53.team saw in Hawaii. It is tiny we are looking for. This is where
:30:54. > :30:57.You can see in there we have some plankton, we have some sea plankton,
:30:57. > :31:02.they are the animals and the plants. You can see the cell particles, you
:31:02. > :31:08.can see distinctively the plastic particles. With the sharper edges?
:31:08. > :31:13.Yeah. You can see down here there is zoo plankton tucked in amongst
:31:13. > :31:19.all the rubbish, the soil and so on. You can see heads and tails. We
:31:19. > :31:23.know big plastic has an affect on wildlife, whether plastic bags or
:31:23. > :31:28.bottles. Eventually it breaks down mechanically to smaller and smaller
:31:28. > :31:32.particles. The question is does have an impact? A few years it was
:31:33. > :31:36.assumed it was like roughage and didn't have a major impact. We know
:31:36. > :31:41.those very small plastic particles can mimic certain things like
:31:41. > :31:47.oestrogen, we know that has been impact. But also, these plastic
:31:47. > :31:52.particles are like spoings, they are like -- sponges, like magnets
:31:52. > :32:02.for other things, they absorb the material, and effectively they
:32:02. > :32:09.
:32:09. > :32:12.become quite toxic particles. creatures in some parts of the
:32:12. > :32:20.world. But there is new evidence about our own food chain. I went to
:32:20. > :32:24.Plymouth to find out more. At the marine biology and ecology
:32:24. > :32:30.centre of Plymouth University, they study the impact of pollutants on
:32:30. > :32:35.our oceans and rivers, and the creatures that live in them.
:32:35. > :32:40.Marine scientist, Richard Thomson, was the first to describe the tiny
:32:40. > :32:47.fragments of broken plastics as microplastics, back in 2004. There
:32:47. > :32:51.is two concerns from a tok logical point of view. There is the the
:32:51. > :32:56.issue of absorbing chemicals from sea water, and the second question
:32:56. > :33:01.is about chemicals introduced into plastics from the time of
:33:01. > :33:07.manufacture, in order to achieve specific qualities of the plastic,
:33:07. > :33:14.its flexibility, as flame retardant, or microals. Is it when we don't
:33:14. > :33:20.have plastics as whole eye tomes but small particles, is -- items,
:33:20. > :33:27.but small particles, will chemicals be released then. We don't know the
:33:28. > :33:33.discovering, as in Hawaii, plastic is making its way into creatures in
:33:33. > :33:35.the wild. He look at fish in the English Channel, 500 or so across
:33:35. > :33:39.ten species, including mackerel and whiting. He found it, in small
:33:39. > :33:43.quantities, one or two particles per fish. It shows microplastics
:33:43. > :33:47.are widespread in the environment, not just in beaches, but the
:33:47. > :33:52.creatures that live in some of those environments. The next steps
:33:52. > :33:57.are to take information like that, from fish and other crewures, to
:33:57. > :34:06.understand, OK -- creatures, to understand OK, what are the
:34:06. > :34:10.concentrations, what is the plastic varying from species to species. In
:34:10. > :34:20.order to understand which particular combinations might
:34:20. > :34:22.
:34:22. > :34:27.the potential for the microplastics anything being done to cut back on
:34:27. > :34:34.largist cosmetic manufacturers, Unilever, said this month it will
:34:34. > :34:38.stop using plastic microbads, it adds to shower shells and other
:34:38. > :34:43.products. Should the plastic industry do something? We are
:34:43. > :34:47.unhappy the plastics are in the ocean, we don't illegal leave it
:34:47. > :34:57.there and dump it in the sea. We need it back, first and foremost
:34:57. > :35:02.for recycling, but it is also a valuable form of heat and power.
:35:02. > :35:08.We know the plastic we can see is affecting wildlife in place like
:35:08. > :35:13.Hawaii, in front of our eyes. We know tiny fragments are being found
:35:13. > :35:17.all over the world, we know it is causing disturbing sex changes in
:35:17. > :35:22.some creatures. Its vital now more work is being done to find out
:35:22. > :35:26.the wild, and what that means potentially for all of us.
:35:26. > :35:30.The Government has finally announced plans to align our
:35:30. > :35:36.childcare with some of our European partner, bringing the number
:35:36. > :35:41.children looked after from four to five and six, depending on their
:35:41. > :35:47.which the Government will soon answer, is whether funding to pay
:35:47. > :35:54.for childcare will go to everyone, regardless of income, or targeted
:35:54. > :35:59.to need. This is a big ideolgical debate between universalism and
:35:59. > :36:09.means-tested awards. Bringing the magic of averages to
:36:09. > :36:16.the rescue of millions. One Winston *Beveridge rej did it. A system of
:36:16. > :36:22.insurance, marked out by one thing, oversized safety net, for the rich
:36:22. > :36:26.as well as more the rest. Because it announced something for
:36:27. > :36:31.everyone, when the Beveridge report was published here, in 1942, there
:36:31. > :36:34.were queues up and down the block. Soon when the coalition published
:36:34. > :36:42.their new childcare policy, it would be principles that are
:36:42. > :36:49.familiar, they would go for a tax same. If the system is to continue
:36:49. > :36:59.to work, does it need to have a little something for everybody.
:36:59. > :37:01.
:37:02. > :37:05.benefits universal. As things stand, with childcare to the tune of
:37:05. > :37:06.�1,000 per family. This is what the minister in charge had to say this
:37:06. > :37:11.morning. We want to help working families,
:37:11. > :37:14.we know what a massive issue it is for people. All families, there is
:37:14. > :37:18.some debate about whether the better off should? All familiar
:37:18. > :37:22.lose who go into work, we want to help with their childcare --
:37:22. > :37:27.families who go into work, we want to help with their children's
:37:27. > :37:33.childcare. For mums like Ruth, you would have thought it would be
:37:33. > :37:39.welcome, and if it came to pass a welcome U-turn. In 2010 the
:37:39. > :37:43.coalition had signalled something time of scarcity there will be an
:37:43. > :37:48.end to policies for the rich as well as the less well off. Child
:37:48. > :37:53.benefit would be means-tested, she thinks that they made an error, her
:37:53. > :38:01.husband earns many times the average Sally. I have paid into the
:38:01. > :38:08.system and work -- Salary. I have I get it. I have worked hard to pay
:38:08. > :38:18.my tax, I'm not earning now, I back from the Government. Even if
:38:18. > :38:19.
:38:19. > :38:24.who get the extra benefits, they get free council flat, and money
:38:24. > :38:28.towards milk for children. I have twins, I'm going through two tubs
:38:28. > :38:32.of milk, a week, which costs a lot of money. Sources in Government say
:38:32. > :38:37.their new universal policy should reward women to stay in work. It is
:38:37. > :38:41.good for gender equality, they say, and living standards. But they will
:38:41. > :38:45.have their critics. On childcare I think they are making a terrible
:38:45. > :38:53.mistake, they are bending over backwards to give a tax break to
:38:53. > :38:58.people, so long as they pay someone want to support their own children,
:38:58. > :39:03.and perhaps share the work and share the caring. Newsnight
:39:03. > :39:06.policy chief, is currently trying to iron out a rather serious
:39:06. > :39:10.wrinkle in their possible childcare offer. Right now the rich do stand
:39:10. > :39:14.to gain from any possible tax relief. Elsewhere, lower down
:39:14. > :39:18.system, the less well off stand to lose out. This is because of
:39:18. > :39:22.changes to tax credits, changes, and indeed cuts to other benefits,
:39:22. > :39:26.and the bringing in of the Universal Credit. Unless there is
:39:26. > :39:31.serious action, David Cameron might preside over a rather funny find of
:39:31. > :39:37.universalism, where the rich benefit and other people lower down
:39:37. > :39:42.get left behind. This is what they are worried about.
:39:42. > :39:48.Currently a middle become family with two children in childcare
:39:48. > :39:58.stand to make no more money, if the second earner ups their hours from
:39:58. > :40:04.
:40:04. > :40:10.ten to Thierry hours. My sources in not worth it, I have to pay the and
:40:10. > :40:18.food, it is so expensive now, if the Government are willing to pay
:40:18. > :40:24.think people would be more willing to go back to work.
:40:24. > :40:29.As the result of much study into questions of social security...Many
:40:29. > :40:34.Thought Beveridge's baby, universalism, would be out with the
:40:34. > :40:40.bath water of benefit cuts, a policy for plenty, not many.
:40:40. > :40:45.Winter fuel, TV licenses, and other benefits vulnerable. In an era of
:40:45. > :40:50.fiscal restraint, choices have to be made about where universal is
:40:50. > :40:54.more or less important, where to proceed and where to advance.
:40:54. > :40:56.Universalism is most important where it is imbodied in shared
:40:56. > :41:01.services, people coming together meeting people from different
:41:01. > :41:06.backgrounds and making a common bond with each other, like in the
:41:06. > :41:15.NHS. It is more like a cash transaction between bank accounts.
:41:15. > :41:23.North of the border in Scotland, the Labour leader says universalism
:41:23. > :41:33.universal is important for the less well off as well as for the better.
:41:33. > :41:34.
:41:34. > :41:37.One of the key things, when than it does to the people who are
:41:37. > :41:45.better off. You get this extraordinary thing that people who
:41:45. > :41:50.You get some of the nonsense stories, like free bus passes
:41:50. > :41:57.leading to millionaires taking the buses. I haven't all that many
:41:57. > :42:07.The case for universalism is made, so important, that universal
:42:07. > :42:10.
:42:10. > :42:14.provision is what is require. Prime Minister agrees with him.
:42:14. > :42:17.Hilary Mantel has won this year's Costa prize for Bring Up The Bodies,
:42:17. > :42:24.her second installment of the trilogy about Thomas Cromwell,
:42:24. > :42:29.which began with Wolf Hall, both giving her a lot of booker win. She
:42:29. > :42:33.says she is flying through the air. I spoke to Hillary from a noisy
:42:33. > :42:40.awards ceremony earlier. I asked her reaction to winning the scam
:42:40. > :42:47.booker and the Costa prize in the same year? I'm astonished, I'm
:42:47. > :42:55.gratified. It is almost too much to take in. I laboured away for so
:42:55. > :43:05.many years in apparent obscurity, couple of years. It is all down to
:43:05. > :43:05.
:43:05. > :43:10.your historical novels have a modern sensibility? I don't think I
:43:10. > :43:15.of the reasons he was such an unusual man, I made such -- and
:43:15. > :43:24.made such an impact on English history, is he was, in many ways,
:43:24. > :43:34.ahead of his time. I have not tried to force contemporary parallels f
:43:34. > :43:38.
:43:39. > :43:48.the reader wants to draw them, that - Hillary, I know you like to work
:43:48. > :43:51.trilogy. Any clues, we know the broad story, how will you portray
:43:51. > :43:58.Thomas Cromwell? Cromwell has four more years to rise in the world.
:43:58. > :44:03.Until he is Earl of Essex, and in command of most of the great
:44:03. > :44:12.offices of state and the business of England. Life is dangerous,
:44:12. > :44:20.every day is a crisis, there is no down time. He's a tougher, harder
:44:20. > :44:30.man. His fall from grace will come very suddenly, in the summer of 540,
:44:30. > :44:40.as the reader well knows he will go to the scaffold, leaving his master,
:44:40. > :44:41.
:44:41. > :44:45.Henry VII, very soon -- Henry Viii you find so joyful about writing?
:44:45. > :44:50.don't know if it is a joyful experience all of the time or most
:44:50. > :44:56.of the time. It is an endlessly experience. I never claimed that it
:44:56. > :45:01.makes you happy. It leaves you a lot of the time in a state of
:45:01. > :45:05.jittery vulnerability. But sometimes, just occasionally, once
:45:05. > :45:11.or twice in a writing life, you have the feeling that you are
:45:11. > :45:21.saying what you meant. Finally, are you heading for a Booker hat trick
:45:21. > :45:22.
:45:22. > :45:30.with The Mirror And The Light? Fortunate light for my stability I
:45:30. > :45:40.don't have to think about that for morning's front pages. Hillary is
:45:40. > :45:40.
:45:40. > :46:23.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds
:46:23. > :46:33.That's all from us tomorrow. More from us tomorrow night, a very good
:46:33. > :46:54.
:46:54. > :46:57.from us tomorrow night, a very good night.
:46:57. > :47:03.Stormy wind in northern Scotland overnight. Rising rifle river
:47:03. > :47:08.levels in the south west, the rain -- rising river levels in the south
:47:08. > :47:12.west. Welcome sunshine in the west, some thundery. The heavier showers
:47:12. > :47:15.are pushing into northern England. Especially the North West, possibly
:47:15. > :47:19.arriving into the north Midland as well. We will see showers for a
:47:19. > :47:22.while across the south Midlands and southern England. During the
:47:22. > :47:27.afternoon those will tend to fade away. We should get more sunshine,
:47:27. > :47:32.a brighter day than it was today. Windy, gusty winds here, it won't
:47:32. > :47:35.feel as mild as it did today, when we saw temperatures of 14 degrees
:47:35. > :47:39.widely. Gusty wind across Wales, and across northern England,
:47:39. > :47:42.blustery winds in Northern Ireland. Most of the showers here probably
:47:42. > :47:45.in the morning, brighter during the afternoon. Sunshine in Scotland.
:47:45. > :47:49.Again some heavy showers in the morning, again it is very windy in
:47:49. > :47:54.the far north where the rain is still around. The showers will be
:47:54. > :47:58.on the sharp side, the possibility of hail and thunder on Wednesday,