:00:12. > :00:16.What exactly are you eat when you bite into a burger? As we learn
:00:16. > :00:22.that horse meat could have been on our shelves for a year, why do we
:00:22. > :00:26.know so little about our food? Welcome to London Airport, in
:00:26. > :00:33.Istanbul. As the competition hots up for British passengers, we head
:00:33. > :00:37.to the gateway for Asia. This is the meeting point of two continents,
:00:37. > :00:43.Istanbul is in the world economic market for nearly 3,000 years.
:00:43. > :00:47.Also tonight a Barclays insider attacks levels of pay in banking,
:00:47. > :00:50.and says the boss, Bob Diamond, should never have taken his bonus.
:00:50. > :01:00.We speak to a former Deputy Chairman of Barclays, and Lord
:01:00. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:15.And the Oscar-nominated film that portrays the toppling of Augusto
:01:15. > :01:24.Pinochet. The Mexican star of the film, Gael Garcia Bernal, is here
:01:24. > :01:28.with me now. Good evening. Remember those horse
:01:28. > :01:31.meat burgers? Well, today it emerged they could have been sold
:01:31. > :01:35.in British supermarkets for up to a year. One leading supermarket,
:01:35. > :01:39.Tesco, vowed to end its relationship with the firm that
:01:39. > :01:43.supplied those burgers, insisting it was a breach of trust. Now if
:01:43. > :01:46.horse meat, pork meat and God knows what else has been on the shelves
:01:46. > :01:51.for 12 month, what does it tell us about the health and transparency
:01:51. > :02:01.of our food industry. Tonight we go behind the scenes to find out where
:02:01. > :02:05.our food comes from, and what is in Let's have a quick look around. How
:02:05. > :02:11.about a quick snack? That's where the beef burger comes in, feed it
:02:11. > :02:17.one pound of fine mincemeat, and in less than no time it makes beef
:02:17. > :02:22.burgers ready to be fried or grilled. The beefburg certificate a
:02:22. > :02:25.regular British dish for decades. Ten million have been taken off the
:02:25. > :02:31.shelves, after the Irish food agency found horse meat from Poland
:02:31. > :02:35.in a Tesco burger. The supermarket cancelled its contract with the
:02:35. > :02:41.supplier responsible. Today, MPs grilled the British agency, wanting
:02:41. > :02:49.to find out why it wasn't spotted here. If you don't use those tests,
:02:49. > :02:56.how do we know that the FSA UK would have picked up the
:02:56. > :02:59.contamination if FSA Ireland hadn't. Interesting thing, we have
:03:00. > :03:08.accredited test, and we have a mixture of DNA and other tests,
:03:08. > :03:12.that we could use. We have tests available that, had we tested, and
:03:12. > :03:19.had there been the wrong stuff there, we would have found. The
:03:19. > :03:22.real issue is that we wouldn't have tested, because we have our
:03:22. > :03:31.surveillance approach which is risk-based. The burgers could have
:03:31. > :03:35.been on sale for a year. The retailer, bears prime
:03:35. > :03:40.responsibility for food quality. Tescos said the company had tests
:03:40. > :03:45.and audits right the way up the chain, but the sub-contractor went
:03:45. > :03:47.outside it. If somebody decides to step outside that process, in a
:03:48. > :03:51.deliberate attempt, for whatever commercial reason, it is impossible
:03:51. > :03:56.to check a supplier in Poland who we don't know even exists. Unless
:03:56. > :04:01.you check the product when it comes to you? Which is why we have
:04:01. > :04:06.instituted a programme of DNA testing, starting today. Now?
:04:06. > :04:12.Exactly. The horse meat came from blocks of powered filler, one of
:04:12. > :04:17.the many ingredients in burgers. Burgers rarely contain 100% beef.
:04:17. > :04:23.The FSA has two classifications for burger products, a standard beef
:04:23. > :04:28.burger, need only contain 62% beef, a chicken burger, 55% chicken, and
:04:28. > :04:38.a pork burger, 67% pig meat. For called economy products, the
:04:38. > :04:46.
:04:46. > :04:50.These days we expect our food to be fresh all year round, and food
:04:50. > :04:55.supply chains stretch right round the globe, ensuring food security
:04:55. > :05:00.has become ever more difficult. At the same time, testing is more
:05:00. > :05:05.sophisticated, and you can identify all kinds of alien substances,
:05:06. > :05:11.alien DNA, but you have to decide what you are looking for.
:05:11. > :05:15.Technicians analysing meat samples like this can test for horse DNA,
:05:15. > :05:19.donkey DNA, zebra DNA, or maybe all at the same time. It is up to the
:05:19. > :05:25.client to decide. The technicians can't just look for DNA that
:05:25. > :05:30.shouldn't be there. It is a specific test, because it is a very
:05:30. > :05:33.selective test, targeting on specific he will empts of the DNA
:05:33. > :05:38.of the species of interests, it can't be a scatter gun approach.
:05:38. > :05:45.That is not to say that multiplexing can't be performed if
:05:46. > :05:50.a laboratory is asked to set up an as say or PCR for a variety of
:05:50. > :05:54.spees she is, that can be done, but it must be named species
:05:54. > :05:58.deliberately sought for in the analysis. Nearly ten years ago, the
:05:58. > :06:02.Food Standards Agency found donkey DNA in salami sold in Yorkshire and
:06:02. > :06:06.Tyneside. They checked over 100 salami samples, right across the
:06:06. > :06:14.country, but didn't find it anywhere else. It doesn't surprise
:06:14. > :06:17.me that the issue has reemerged. It is well known that maybe 80-90% of
:06:17. > :06:22.food problems are problems that have happened before, and then
:06:22. > :06:27.reemerge into the system. The problem is, we don't know when that
:06:27. > :06:31.reemergence is going to take place. Others say this issue shows the
:06:31. > :06:36.need for tougher enforcement in this industry now. With public
:06:36. > :06:43.confidence undermined. DNA testing of meat, once the exception, could
:06:43. > :06:46.become far more common. Professor Philip James is a food
:06:46. > :06:53.policy expert, who drew up the blueprint for what became the Food
:06:53. > :06:56.Standards Agency, and lelen Browning leads the farming group,
:06:56. > :07:00.the Soil Association. We invited executives from the meat and
:07:00. > :07:05.supermarket sector, they said they were unavailable. Warm welcome to
:07:05. > :07:08.both of you. The extraordinary thing is even Tesco hold us it was
:07:08. > :07:13.surprised by all this, Tesco doesn't know where its own meat
:07:13. > :07:20.comes from? All you have to do is look at the food chain, and when I
:07:20. > :07:25.try to work out how to get a valid system, so that people can be
:07:25. > :07:29.assured, that was during the BSE crisis and the E-coli. It rapidly
:07:29. > :07:34.became available that there was the issue of control of abattoirs,
:07:34. > :07:39.which was far from perfect, and then there was the whole issue of
:07:39. > :07:44.where do all these components come from? I didn't realise at the time,
:07:44. > :07:49.and I told parliament in an inquiry about a year or two later, I hadn't
:07:49. > :07:55.realised just how much food and ingredients were coming from abroad.
:07:55. > :08:00.And in the nature of the Food Standards Agency, I realised it was
:08:00. > :08:05.essentially impossible to have a monitoring system that would track
:08:05. > :08:09.every portion of ingredients and food that came from abroad.
:08:09. > :08:13.Completely impossible. And so that then leads us into the EU, where if
:08:13. > :08:17.the majority of our food comes from the EU, you are then dependant on
:08:17. > :08:22.the European system, monitoring it, but you have to remember that this
:08:22. > :08:27.is not an isolated case. In about the SE, we worked out when I was in
:08:28. > :08:34.Brussels, that -- BSE, we worked out when I was in Brussels, a
:08:34. > :08:37.animal cut up in Germany, and sent to Denmark and be in ten countries'
:08:37. > :08:40.food products. Whose responsibility is it to trace what is in the food.
:08:40. > :08:46.Is it the supermarkets, the suppliers? I think that the problem
:08:46. > :08:51.we have here is we do have a global food industry, which is all about
:08:51. > :08:54.trying to produce food as cheaply as possible. We have a consumer and
:08:54. > :08:59.retailer putting a lot of pressure on the supply chain for cheap food.
:08:59. > :09:02.You would want prices to go up? think you cannot expect, if you are
:09:02. > :09:06.putting pressure all the way down the chain, on every part of the
:09:06. > :09:08.chain, from the farmer to the processor to the retailer even,
:09:08. > :09:12.because shareholders are demanding short-term profits from those
:09:12. > :09:15.retailers as well, then you are going to get all sorts of strange
:09:15. > :09:20.things happening. We have seen it over the years, we will see it
:09:20. > :09:24.again. I wonder whether there is even a sense that the consumer
:09:24. > :09:28.minds this. Sure, when the headline is horse meat people get very
:09:28. > :09:33.agitated, as we saw from the report there, the breakdown is also on the
:09:33. > :09:38.packet. You are told exactly what is in a cheap-end burger, people
:09:38. > :09:41.buy them, they don't mind? They don't actually realise some of the
:09:41. > :09:45.implications. I'm also in the nutrition game, the health problems
:09:45. > :09:49.of Britain are extraordinary. People haven't got it into their
:09:49. > :09:53.heads yet that actually what's in that stuff, and it is quite
:09:53. > :09:57.difficult to tell really its impact, except for this traffic light
:09:57. > :10:02.labelling, which was an attempt to get there. But that's nothing to do
:10:02. > :10:09.with ingredients in terms of validating where it comes from,
:10:09. > :10:14.food safety and so on, which is the only subject the FSA is having to
:10:14. > :10:18.handle. I wonder if the labelling is something of a middle-class
:10:18. > :10:22.obsession, if you are interested in your organics and phosphates you
:10:23. > :10:27.will read it. If you are short of time and money you don't sit down
:10:27. > :10:30.and wonder about the countries listed on a packet? I agree a lot
:10:30. > :10:33.of people aren't reading the labelling properly, but a lot of
:10:33. > :10:37.people are driven by the price on there. You sound as if you are
:10:37. > :10:40.surprised by that, we are in the middle of a recession? Absolutely,
:10:40. > :10:45.the pressures during the recession are greater than they were five
:10:45. > :10:49.years ago. We have had huge food scandals in this country over the
:10:49. > :10:53.last ten 20 or 10 years -- 10 or 20 years. We have done a lot to try to
:10:53. > :10:55.remedy the situations around. When the supply chain and all the
:10:55. > :10:59.businesses are under pressure, actually, there are only a few
:10:59. > :11:04.people who care enough to read the label, who really want to look at
:11:04. > :11:07.the prefnens, who really want to make sure they know where the food
:11:07. > :11:13.comes from. You were at the heart of repairing what was a massive
:11:13. > :11:20.scandal, the BSE scandal, you sound like you still don't understand the
:11:20. > :11:22.transparency of the system? If you don't, who does? The fact is, it is
:11:22. > :11:27.exceptionally difficult. anything properly changed since
:11:27. > :11:32.then? We know that the abattoir system is different? The abattoirs
:11:32. > :11:37.have changed. The nutritional labelling has changed. The called
:11:37. > :11:43.validation process is now in a mode where you are essentially relying
:11:43. > :11:45.on intelligence as to what probably might be there. If you have a
:11:45. > :11:49.thousand tests, do you put a thousand tests into all these
:11:49. > :11:55.products. You cannot do it. Therefore, the question is...This
:11:55. > :12:01.Goes back to the test for the DNA of zebra? Precisely. If you are
:12:01. > :12:06.going for cheap food, you will fill that food, sorry, with essentially
:12:06. > :12:10.rubbish, fat, sugar, gristle, all sorts of things, just to fill it.
:12:10. > :12:16.That has been recognised for a long time. Don't forget the farmers have
:12:16. > :12:20.a very small proportion of the cost of that food that the retailer gets.
:12:20. > :12:24.Should anybody be apologising for what is going on, and should there
:12:24. > :12:28.be legal implications for this. This came up before MPs and the
:12:28. > :12:32.Food Standards Agency today, should Tesco and other supermarkets be
:12:32. > :12:35.thinking in terms of the legal fees this will cost them? I think they
:12:35. > :12:38.should be thinking very hard about their reputation, and the security
:12:38. > :12:41.of their supply chain going forward. Actually one of the things that has
:12:41. > :12:44.happened as we have increased the amount of regulation around food,
:12:44. > :12:48.is it has driven a lot of the smaller business, and smaller
:12:48. > :12:53.abattoir, the smaller meat processors, out of business. The
:12:53. > :12:57.whole system is even more globalised than it was 10 or 20
:12:57. > :13:01.years ago. When you get a problem somewhere, it will spread really
:13:01. > :13:04.fast. It doesn't feel like food is cheap, food inflation is on the up?
:13:04. > :13:07.Food inflation is on the up, these pressures will get greater. We need
:13:07. > :13:11.to take short-term thinking out, we need to plan for the long-term. We
:13:11. > :13:14.need Governments to think about the long-term. And we need retailers to
:13:14. > :13:18.be working fairly with the businesses who are supplying them
:13:18. > :13:20.with the farmers supplying those businesses, to make sure we really
:13:20. > :13:23.do know where food comes from into the future.
:13:23. > :13:30.Thank you very much. This week, the Government announced
:13:30. > :13:34.a concrete plan to build the second stage of the high-speed 2 rail line
:13:34. > :13:37.from Manchester to Leeds. That won't be built until much later, so
:13:37. > :13:41.much for speed. That crawls through the planning stages and Britain
:13:41. > :13:44.should have decided what to do with the other big infrastructure
:13:44. > :13:47.headache, airports. The review into aviation capacity won't report
:13:47. > :13:51.until after the next general election in 2015, whereupon it
:13:51. > :13:55.could take a further decade before anything is built. While Britain
:13:55. > :14:04.delays, dozens of rival airports are eating our proverbial lunch. We
:14:04. > :14:08.have been to Amsterdam and Istanbul, to view the competition. Long
:14:08. > :14:13.before mass air travel, long before Skye Bridges, travel lators or duty
:14:13. > :14:18.free were words. London's principal airport was in fact in Croydon,
:14:18. > :14:23.south of the city. These pictures were shot in 1920s, these are the
:14:23. > :14:26.earliest ever air passengers, flying between Amsterdam and
:14:27. > :14:31.Croydon. Which is where air traffic control was invented and much of
:14:31. > :14:35.the Battle of Britain was co- ordinated. King George VI trained
:14:35. > :14:42.as a pilot here. Now it is a museum in the middle of an industrial
:14:42. > :14:47.estate. Croydon's failure to adapt, it was literally just grass fields,
:14:47. > :14:51.was replaced by an Rafah sillity in west London called Heathrow. Other
:14:51. > :14:55.large airports developed around the capital, notably Gatwick and
:14:55. > :14:59.Stanstead. They are not hubs, all passengers using those airports
:14:59. > :15:03.start or end their journey there. Heathrow, like it or loathe it, is
:15:03. > :15:06.Britain's only true hub airport, where travellers can connect with
:15:06. > :15:10.flight to almost anywhere in the world. But as most people will
:15:10. > :15:15.agree, Heathrow is now full, its owners are screaming out for
:15:15. > :15:19.permission to build another runway. The fifth major review since the
:15:19. > :15:23.1960s into airport capacity in the south-east is now under way.
:15:23. > :15:28.Although it won't report until late 2015, it could suggest expanding at
:15:28. > :15:38.Heathrow, or Gatwick, or Stanstead. Or even building a completely new
:15:38. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:45.hub airport in the Thames Estuary. So, while London dithers, I want to
:15:45. > :15:47.find out what airports in other cities are doing. First stop
:15:47. > :15:51.Birmingham. Ten million people live within an hour of Birmingham
:15:51. > :15:55.Airport, which has a gleaming new terminal, plenty of spare capacity,
:15:55. > :15:59.and is well served by road and rail. But being just over an hour away
:15:59. > :16:03.from London is one of the problems. British Airways pulled out a few
:16:03. > :16:08.years ago to focus on Heathrow. And now Birmingham is a bit like a
:16:09. > :16:17.beautiful bride, waiting for a suitor.
:16:17. > :16:22.We have Jaguar Land Rover in sight of where we are, yet Jaguar Land
:16:22. > :16:26.Rover's chief executive can't fly to us from India. How many
:16:26. > :16:29.investors is this putting off. We have an aviation policy that
:16:29. > :16:33.concentrates on an airport close to the capital. London is the greatest
:16:33. > :16:37.city in the world, we don't deny that, and there is a lot of
:16:37. > :16:39.concentration on financial services. As we rebalance the services, we
:16:39. > :16:42.have to be real about getting access to markets and manufacturing.
:16:42. > :16:47.We have to change what is a broken system.
:16:47. > :16:57.It is not just regional airports which are hoping to steal a march,
:16:57. > :16:58.
:16:58. > :17:03.while London delays. I joined the 2.3 million people who
:17:03. > :17:08.fly from regional British airports, on KLM, into Amsterdam. In fact,
:17:08. > :17:12.people outside London are as likely to use Schiphol to get to their
:17:12. > :17:16.final global destination, as they are to use Heathrow. Schiphol is a
:17:16. > :17:21.large aiorn in a small country, which means in order to -- airport
:17:21. > :17:28.in a small country, in order to expand it needs to lure customers
:17:28. > :17:33.from other countries, Britain is the target. While Britain as
:17:33. > :17:39.prevaricated and delayed about capacity enhancement, Schiphol has
:17:39. > :17:42.six full-length, full-use runways. 70% of all people who use Schiphol
:17:42. > :17:47.are transfer passengers, they have no intention of getting out in
:17:47. > :17:51.Amsterdam. The equivalent for Heathrow is around 30%. So,
:17:51. > :17:56.Schiphol has built its entire airport around passengers changing
:17:56. > :17:59.planes. Something that might not make sense in London. We have the
:17:59. > :18:03.one-termal concept, which makes it very easy for passengers who come
:18:03. > :18:08.in to connect to flights. It is not huge distances they have to travel.
:18:08. > :18:11.And, of course, our airport capacity is also built on making
:18:11. > :18:14.connections, facilitating with a lot of gates, in order to make sure
:18:14. > :18:19.that passengers can connect efficiently to their new flights
:18:19. > :18:23.and then they can go out quickly again. KLM says it will wrap up its
:18:23. > :18:26.presence in Britain even further while London prevaricate. We will
:18:26. > :18:33.continue our expansion strategy into the UK, it is a prime market
:18:33. > :18:38.for us. With the marketing slogan "welcome to Schiphol". Yes. Even
:18:38. > :18:43.though you are in Kent? Schiphol airport was voted as Best British
:18:43. > :18:48.Airport in the UK, why not! Even though Amsterdam is growing, like
:18:48. > :18:54.many of Europe's older hubs, it faces stiff new competition from
:18:54. > :19:02.the near east. Ten years ago Heathrow was Europe's busiest
:19:02. > :19:07.aviation hub, with 63 million passengers, Schiphol had 40 million,
:19:07. > :19:17.and Istanbul's airport only 10 men I don't know. Heathrow squeezed an
:19:17. > :19:32.
:19:32. > :19:42.extra 11% out of its two extra # Come fly with me
:19:42. > :19:42.
:19:42. > :19:49.It's the only way to fly. # Come fly with me
:19:49. > :19:58.# Let's fly away I will have the prawns and some
:19:58. > :20:02.peppers as well. Great choice, sir. All this pampering was, alas, on
:20:02. > :20:05.the ground. The facility where Turkish airlines trains chefs to
:20:05. > :20:09.serve food in the air, that they have prepared on the ground. It may
:20:09. > :20:13.be a gimmick, but it is part of the ambition and focus of an airline
:20:13. > :20:18.that few of us had heard of 20 years a but is now the fastest-
:20:18. > :20:28.growing airline in the world. Taking the advantage of its key
:20:28. > :20:29.
:20:29. > :20:34.geographical location, where Asia meets Europe. # Come fly with me!
:20:34. > :20:39.The boss of Turkish Airlines says the cost of building a new runway,
:20:39. > :20:42.is roughly what he spends on a new jumbo jet, so his success in the
:20:42. > :20:46.air is only possible if it is matched by expansion reinvestment
:20:46. > :20:50.on the ground. I'm the decision maker, I spend millions of dollars
:20:50. > :20:55.on the ground, because we are on the ground, and make the passenger
:20:55. > :21:01.happy, when checking in and boarding, spend more on the ground
:21:01. > :21:05.and your nation becomes a big player in the airline business.
:21:05. > :21:08.My youthful co-pilot encapsulates the vigour of this rapidly growing
:21:09. > :21:14.and modernising economy. Supported on the ground, and in the air, by
:21:14. > :21:19.the Government. She's one of the 2,400 trainee pilots earning their
:21:19. > :21:25.wings on simulators just like this one every year. While London hasn't
:21:25. > :21:30.built any new runways in decades, Istanbul will have five new runways
:21:30. > :21:37.by 2017. As for my first go on a Boeing 777, I think I might stick
:21:37. > :21:42.to journalism. So, will all this recent growth
:21:42. > :21:47.eventually run out of road? There will be a saturation point, which
:21:47. > :21:52.we know. There are 150,000 motorways in the air from Europe to
:21:52. > :21:56.the other parts of the world. There is not any other economic activity
:21:56. > :22:01.which can replace this economy, even the Internet. Otherwise you
:22:01. > :22:07.wouldn't be here. Then, the location of Istanbul is another
:22:07. > :22:12.advantage for us. Istanbul is the meeting point of two continents,
:22:12. > :22:19.Istanbul is in the world's economic market nearly for 3,000 years.
:22:19. > :22:26.Istanbul of the capital of three empires, east Roman, Byzantine and
:22:26. > :22:33.out toeman empire. It is now the -- Automan empire, now it is the
:22:33. > :22:37.capital of the Turkish Republican lick.
:22:37. > :22:42.-- Turkish Republic. Back to the centre of the debate, where the
:22:42. > :22:46.home of the Industrial Revolution seems to find it so tough to build
:22:46. > :22:50.more runway, when the demand from passengers is at least there. The
:22:50. > :22:54.man who wants the additional capacity the most, he's almost
:22:54. > :22:58.philosophical. I would like the answer to come as quickly as
:22:58. > :23:03.possible. But, if, a quick answer is even more quickly undone,
:23:03. > :23:10.because it is a, say First Minister, it is a party political issue,
:23:10. > :23:13.every time there is a new election there is a reversal then, there is
:23:13. > :23:15.no benefit to the British public. We need something that will survive
:23:15. > :23:22.through several political cycles long enough to be delivered.
:23:22. > :23:31.think it is to do with the nature of the democracy in the UK. We have
:23:32. > :23:35.situations where providers of the infrastructure want to develop the
:23:35. > :23:38.infrastructure, local opposition is very strong, either on social,
:23:39. > :23:43.economic or environmental grounds, and there is the constant conflict
:23:43. > :23:46.between those who want to build and those who want to delay or stop
:23:46. > :23:51.building. The Government tends to sit in the middle. It doesn't take
:23:51. > :23:58.sides, and very often if it does take sides, it supports the
:23:58. > :24:01.objectors, which is what has happened at Heathrow.
:24:01. > :24:07.Europe and North America used to be the only shows in town when it came
:24:07. > :24:12.to air travel. Those days have gone the way of Croydon Airport. The
:24:12. > :24:20.question is, not whether, but when Heathrow lose its top dog status,
:24:20. > :24:24.and whether it too becomes a museum in west London.
:24:24. > :24:29.The former head of remuneration at Barclays Bank has criticised the
:24:29. > :24:38.size of bankers' bonuses, saying a culture of entitlement in the
:24:38. > :24:44.sector led to obscene levels of reward. She also laid bare her
:24:44. > :24:47.anger, for Bob Diamond, who received �20 million for his pay
:24:47. > :24:53.package. She said she had been overruled when calling for him to
:24:53. > :24:56.forego his bonus, she had been amazed her suggestions had fallen
:24:56. > :25:04.on deaf ears. You have been grounded for a month
:25:04. > :25:08.and you can take us through what she's saying. Pretty uncoloured
:25:08. > :25:11.words there? She has turn the banking equivalent of turning
:25:11. > :25:16.states evidence. She has said the dogs in the street have known for a
:25:16. > :25:19.long time that the investment bankers are overpaid, a lot of the
:25:19. > :25:22.reward leads to risk-taking, which has led to the problems over the
:25:22. > :25:26.past few years. She was speaking before the banking commission in
:25:26. > :25:31.her capacity of the former chairman of the remuneration committee in
:25:31. > :25:35.Barclays, who decide how much big guys like Bob Diamond get paid. She
:25:35. > :25:38.recommended he gets zero bonus for 2011, because they had an
:25:38. > :25:43."unacceptable" year. That was overruled by the chairman. And the
:25:43. > :25:47.chairman who is no longer with the bank either, prevailed. The think
:25:47. > :25:51.she was saying to the commission is that shareholders have suffered.
:25:51. > :25:57.The owner of the bank have suffered, whilst the big boss, who were paid
:25:57. > :26:01.so much, have not. Shares are down 70% between 2007 and 2012 yet the
:26:01. > :26:05.remuneration, the total remuneration is stuck at about �12
:26:05. > :26:10.billion. That is indicative of the problem, the wider problem in the
:26:10. > :26:17.banking sector. What is Barclays saying about all this? Well,
:26:17. > :26:20.Barclays are officially saying nothing about Alison Carnworth's
:26:20. > :26:25.statement, other than the current are you numberation chief disagrees
:26:25. > :26:33.with the analysis. Supporters of the bank are saying, while she may
:26:33. > :26:37.have proposed a zero bonus for Bob Diamond, she voted for the �2.7
:26:37. > :26:43.million bonus and spoke up in favour for it at the AGM last year.
:26:43. > :26:50.As to why he was paid the money, the insider world is it was Bob's
:26:50. > :26:56.ego, it had to be paid to placate Bob's ego. Joining me now is the
:26:56. > :27:00.former Chancellor, Lord Lawson, and sir Martin Jacob, a former Deputy
:27:00. > :27:05.Chairman of Barclays. Thank you for coming in. How should we see this
:27:05. > :27:12.woman in this, brave to speak out, or too late after the event. What
:27:12. > :27:20.do you read into what we have learned today? I don't think her
:27:20. > :27:25.evidence is all that important. What is important is the basic
:27:25. > :27:28.remuneration that bankers are paid is too high. That is just a
:27:28. > :27:33.Barclays problem it affects all bank. The reason Alison Carnwath's
:27:33. > :27:37.evidence is note worthy, is she said all this, or she claims she
:27:37. > :27:41.said all this at the time. It is not a revelation, and it was
:27:41. > :27:44.ignored. How can we be in this situation, four years after the
:27:44. > :27:50.credit crunch, where this kind of stuff is still being ignored?
:27:50. > :27:54.tell you it certainly wouldn't have happened in my day. I can't comment
:27:54. > :27:59.on the internal workings between the remuneration committee, and the
:27:59. > :28:02.main board of Barclays. I would have thought that if you were the
:28:02. > :28:05.chairman of the remuneration committee and you didn't get your
:28:05. > :28:15.way, on an issue like this, I would have thought you wouldn't have
:28:15. > :28:18.continued in that role and resigned right away. But I would like to
:28:18. > :28:24.just say something more general about the pay of bankers. There are
:28:24. > :28:27.a couple of things which boards in general fail to take proper account
:28:27. > :28:31.of. One was that these high salaries are very unpopular with
:28:31. > :28:39.the public at large, with the customer, and that unpopularity is
:28:39. > :28:44.picked up by the Governments, and political leaders. That has a very
:28:44. > :28:51.bad effect in terms of the actions Governments take against banks.
:28:51. > :28:57.is very interesting that. You will not find a politician on the scene
:28:57. > :29:01.today, apart from Boris Johnson, who bigs up bankers and the bonuses,
:29:01. > :29:05.but none of them do anything to change it, do they? That is locked
:29:05. > :29:11.at the present time. One of the things the banking commission is
:29:11. > :29:15.looking at is bankers' remuneration. I remember asking Alistair darling
:29:15. > :29:19.about that four years ago? I'm not talking about Alastair Darling,
:29:19. > :29:22.nice fellow that he is. It is successive Governments? It is
:29:22. > :29:25.something we are looking at as a commission, among other things in
:29:26. > :29:31.the banking area. That is why we had the hearing with Alison
:29:31. > :29:36.Carnwath today. One of the striking things, one of the alarming things,
:29:36. > :29:40.Martin is absolutely right, bankers a pay has gone completely out of
:29:40. > :29:44.hand. It is not as if these are particularly special people, a lot
:29:44. > :29:53.of them. They are intelligent, they work hard, but they are readily
:29:53. > :30:00.replacable, most of the time. million Bob Diamond got, for 2011,
:30:00. > :30:05.the leer of LIBOR? For Barclays, in the run up to the crash, what they
:30:06. > :30:10.called structured capital products. Structured capital products, was a
:30:10. > :30:15.euphamism for tax avoidance. They were in the tax avoidance business
:30:16. > :30:25.in massive way. That was earning them something like �100 billion a
:30:26. > :30:26.
:30:26. > :30:33.year. The people doing that were paid enormous bonuses. You know, it
:30:33. > :30:38.was no great skill. Your last point, Sir Martin, it is very unhealthy
:30:38. > :30:42.when Governments bash bankers, but what happens? Nobody actually
:30:42. > :30:49.leaves, nobody goes to Geneva, or takes their business elsewhere,
:30:49. > :30:54.that is just an empty threat, isn't it? I don't think it is, I think it
:30:54. > :30:59.has a highly undesirable combination of events. It makes the
:31:00. > :31:05.existing people running the banks, right now, much more cautious of
:31:05. > :31:08.everything they do, with the result that they are not functioning.
:31:08. > :31:12.current head of Barclays, should people be looking at what he gets
:31:12. > :31:16.now? There are questions over what his bonus is? The current head of
:31:16. > :31:20.Barclays got exactly the same what the previous head of Barclays got,
:31:20. > :31:25.with no bonus, he is not taking any bonus and no pay increase. Should
:31:25. > :31:30.there be a position to clawback bonuses for years that have proven
:31:30. > :31:36.to be ...I Think so. There is one thing which I think, just before I
:31:36. > :31:41.answer that point, which I think people forget when they are in the
:31:41. > :31:44.boardrooms, deciding on the pay. That's this, that you may have a
:31:44. > :31:49.really star trader, he may be very, very valuable, and you may think
:31:49. > :31:55.you have to pay a lot to get him, and he may make a lot of profits,
:31:55. > :32:01.but those profits are made by the combination, not by him alone, but
:32:01. > :32:05.by the combination of him and name of the bank he's working for.
:32:05. > :32:08.People forget that. That is why bankers aren't the same. Presumably
:32:08. > :32:13.banks have proved that they cannot deal with this question on their
:32:13. > :32:16.own. If we are still hearing testimonies like this, four years
:32:16. > :32:23.after the beginning of the crunch, five years some would say. They
:32:23. > :32:26.can't do this themselves can they? They need regulation. I'm not sure
:32:26. > :32:30.whether regulation. There needs to be some regulation, of course, I'm
:32:30. > :32:36.not sure regulation is the whole answer, I'm sure it is not. I'm not
:32:37. > :32:44.sure it is the main part of the problem. It will always be gamed.
:32:44. > :32:48.You have to have structural changes of various kind. But three things,
:32:48. > :32:54.first of all we do want to have a strong banking industry in this
:32:54. > :32:58.country. It is good for the economy. We shouldn't give it away. We
:32:59. > :33:02.should clean it up, and the third thing, you are absolutely right,
:33:02. > :33:10.these people are not going to up stick and go somewhere else. Thank
:33:10. > :33:14.you both very much indeed. In a few Government moment we will speak to
:33:14. > :33:20.the Mexican actor, Gael Garcia Bernal, about his new film about
:33:20. > :33:24.the fall of Pinochet. First, to help the poorest six million pay
:33:24. > :33:27.their council tax, it is the most widely means-tested benefit in
:33:27. > :33:32.Britain. It is a major headache from tomorrow for local authorities,
:33:33. > :33:37.the Government has decided to cut the budget by 10% and relinguish
:33:37. > :33:41.administration of it, councils have to decide whether to swallow the
:33:41. > :33:45.cut or make savings elsewhere, or start charging people a portion of
:33:45. > :33:52.their council tax. One former Conservative cabinet minister said
:33:52. > :33:56.the changes could be a new poll tax for the Government. Wind the clock
:33:56. > :34:01.back to the start of the 60, and not go lamb was the setting for the
:34:01. > :34:06.classic film Saturday Night, Sunday Morning. A young, bed-hopping
:34:06. > :34:11.chancer of a character, played by Albert Finney, enjoys chasing the
:34:11. > :34:19.city's women by night. But he doesn't exactly ooze enthusiasm
:34:19. > :34:24.about the day job. At a bike factory run by Raleigh.
:34:24. > :34:30.No wonder I always have a bad back, don't let the bastards grind you
:34:30. > :34:34.down, I have learned that. coalition have promised to make
:34:34. > :34:40.work pay people like this bike- building anti-hero, it has also
:34:40. > :34:44.promised to make the benefits system simpler and fairer. Many
:34:44. > :34:47.locals here, including here in Nottingham, are pretty sniffy about
:34:47. > :34:50.a change that will make them responsible for helping poorer
:34:50. > :34:54.families with their council tax. It will be the job of the devolved
:34:54. > :34:59.administration in Scotland and Wales, Northern Ireland still has
:34:59. > :35:03.the rates. The Resolution Foundation think-tank said that
:35:03. > :35:08.over half of local authorities that replied to them, over three-
:35:08. > :35:12.quarters plan to bring in a council tax repayment for two thirds of the
:35:12. > :35:15.lowest paid households of working age. Nottingham is one of them.
:35:15. > :35:19.Government has given us the council tax benefits system to manage, they
:35:19. > :35:22.have cut the budget by 10%, it is going to get worse because we have
:35:22. > :35:26.been told to exempt pensioners and there is no inflation. In addition,
:35:26. > :35:31.it has sold a way that is dividing society T has told everyone that
:35:31. > :35:34.people on benefits are scroungers, a lot of people, we know, are not.
:35:34. > :35:40.All working-age households in Nottingham will have to pay at
:35:40. > :35:45.least 8.5% of their council tax bill, around �82 a year for a
:35:45. > :35:49.single parent in a band B property. Across England, many of the 2.5
:35:49. > :35:57.million households with no-one working and currently exempt from
:35:57. > :36:02.council tax will have to start paying it, typically between �96-
:36:02. > :36:06.�255 a year. 70,000 families with one person working will be affected.
:36:06. > :36:11.A single parent with children working part-time could see their
:36:11. > :36:17.bill rocket from �173 a year, to �750. I have come to meet one of
:36:17. > :36:21.those who will be affected by the changes. Jo Scott works 25 hours a
:36:21. > :36:25.week and has two school-age daughters. She knows a new bill
:36:25. > :36:29.will soon land on her doorstep, but doesn't know for how much. I do
:36:29. > :36:37.work here in school hours, which is very convenient, but obviously
:36:37. > :36:42.means I'm only working part-time. I'm an admin assistant, I do a lot
:36:42. > :36:47.of computer work and paperwork, I'm concerned about how it will affect
:36:47. > :36:50.us as a family, we do struggle as it is being on a part-time wage and
:36:50. > :36:57.being a single parent already. Anything additional taken away from
:36:57. > :37:00.that is a concern. Back in 1960s Nottingham, Arthur Seaton is still
:37:00. > :37:04.chasing skirt, where will this benefit change now leave the
:37:04. > :37:09.political parties in their chase for votes.
:37:09. > :37:12.Councils are also rushing to meet a deadline this week to work out how
:37:12. > :37:16.they should implement this idea in their own areas. Remember the
:37:16. > :37:19.question of what people make of it, what political blow-back there
:37:19. > :37:23.could be, with some people suggesting they are asking lots of
:37:23. > :37:28.people on relatively moderate incomes to make some contribution
:37:28. > :37:32.to their local services, has something of the whiff of the poll
:37:32. > :37:38.tax. Nonsense say Conservative MPs, who see this change as sensible and
:37:38. > :37:41.logical. Ultimately we are in a desperate financial mess. There is
:37:41. > :37:45.also a real psychological situation, where if you get something for free,
:37:45. > :37:51.you really don't value it. Now, you put those two together, and there
:37:51. > :37:55.has to come a point where everybody has to pay something towards where
:37:55. > :38:00.they live. But, the Conservative peer who designed the poll tax has
:38:00. > :38:04.warned this could be the poll tax mark two. It shunting that grim for
:38:04. > :38:09.the Tories, he hopes, but...If have a large number of people who
:38:09. > :38:13.who have never paid anything, and are expected to pay relatively
:38:13. > :38:17.small sums, it is that which created the fuss. For you, once
:38:17. > :38:22.bitten twice shy, you don't want the Government coming up against
:38:22. > :38:26.the same thing you did? I didn't persuade colleagues of that. This
:38:26. > :38:31.change will happen, and plenty of people here in Nottingham and
:38:31. > :38:35.elsewhere are preparing for an unwelcome raid on their already
:38:35. > :38:42.squeezed pockets. What happens when a dictator gives
:38:42. > :38:47.his people the chance to vote him out of power? That unlikely
:38:47. > :38:51.scenario is the story of Chile's Pinochet, who after a decade of
:38:51. > :38:59.unrelenting control offers a referendum. This is captured in a
:38:59. > :39:03.film called starkly No. A young advertising hot shot recently
:39:03. > :39:12.returned from exile played by Gael Garcia Bernal is the hero. First a
:39:12. > :39:17.glimpse of No. It's 1988, the feared Chilean
:39:17. > :39:21.dictator, Augusto Pinochet, has succumbed for a referendum on his
:39:21. > :39:28.leadership. A coalition of opposition parties campaign for a
:39:28. > :39:33.No vote. And decide to bring in a young skateboarding executive, to
:39:33. > :39:38.convince a demoralised population to vote against Pinochet and for
:39:38. > :39:43.democratic elections. This is the first-ever Chilean work to be
:39:43. > :39:49.nominated for Best Foreign Film at the Oscars. Shot using grainy 1980s
:39:49. > :39:58.cameras. It weaves in real-life foot j from the rather to give the
:39:58. > :40:04.-- footage from the era. He decides to run a positive campaign, under
:40:04. > :40:09.the banner "Chile Happiness Is Coming". Some say it looks like a
:40:10. > :40:13.soft drinks advert. But for him that is the genius.
:40:13. > :40:19.This is one of the advertising executives the film was based on,
:40:19. > :40:24.he worked with the actors during the shoot. You can offer more
:40:24. > :40:29.violence and more blood, we needed to change this emotion. We needed
:40:29. > :40:33.to change this para dime, we proposed another pardigm, if we can
:40:33. > :40:37.live together we can live in peace. The star of the film, Gael Garcia
:40:37. > :40:41.Bernal, is no strange Tory such political roles. As well as taking
:40:41. > :40:45.on parts like che gre var ra, in The Motorcycle Diaries, he has worn
:40:45. > :40:51.his political heart on his sleeve, working for Amnesty International,
:40:51. > :40:58.turning his back on Hollywood to some extent, in favour of more
:40:58. > :41:01.arthouse roles. There are rumours of blockbuster offers from
:41:01. > :41:04.Hollywood for Mexico's favourite son, but will the love affair be
:41:04. > :41:10.mutual. Gael Garcia Bernal is with me now.
:41:10. > :41:13.Thank you for coming in. You are attracted to what, revolution, or
:41:13. > :41:19.revolutionaries, it is an attractive role for you? Yeah, I
:41:19. > :41:25.think the films that shake up the established narrative are the ones
:41:25. > :41:33.that interest me. Ultimately the ones that I get called for. I don't
:41:33. > :41:38.usually get called for films that are... Playing the banker? You know
:41:38. > :41:45.how it is going to end in a sense. This film, I think, it taps into
:41:45. > :41:50.something that has a change of pardigm, definitely. One of the
:41:50. > :41:58.biggest and more heroic feats that democracy has seen in the world.
:41:58. > :42:01.And it gives also a critical point of view about democracy and the
:42:01. > :42:05.compromise that was made as well. This election was won, but there
:42:05. > :42:10.was a compromise within it. Many things changed, but there was also
:42:10. > :42:18.the open question. What did it really change? And also, the whole
:42:18. > :42:23.nature of selling politics like McCrown knee cheese, or coke --
:42:23. > :42:27.macaroni cheese, or Coca-Cola, almost a cheapened message for the
:42:27. > :42:32.end. What was your thought about that? There is this thing that
:42:32. > :42:38.Pinochet became a classical tragedy himself, you know. He came and
:42:38. > :42:44.imposed, or was a puppet of this imposition of an economic model,
:42:45. > :42:51.which is calling for the markets. And he did reform it? He did. But
:42:51. > :42:57.it was through the tools that he imposed which was the way they
:42:57. > :43:02.chuck him out of power. It was through publicity, the most
:43:02. > :43:05.perverted version of a publicity, which they used it in favour of the
:43:05. > :43:09.No Campaign, already a big political campaign. But I call it
:43:09. > :43:14.perverted because at the end of the day it was very technical. It was
:43:14. > :43:21.like, they didn't want to sell violence, they didn't want to use
:43:21. > :43:26.the message of, the ideas that were in opposition to Pinochet, meaning,
:43:26. > :43:30.showing everything that he had done before, you know, all the
:43:30. > :43:35.disappeared people. They twisted and they shifted into a kind of
:43:35. > :43:40.happy campaign. And you have said that politics in South America, in
:43:40. > :43:44.Latin America, is everything. It's daily life. And here, or in other
:43:44. > :43:50.parts of the world, where you have lived, it is more of a recreational
:43:50. > :43:55.sport? Yes, I think, it is, it has that kind of maybe it has to do
:43:55. > :44:01.with the connection that ever since we were kids, and politics is very
:44:01. > :44:06.engrained into our day-to-day life, where you buy this or that.
:44:06. > :44:10.everything is about La Luce, the struggle, the fight? I was lucky
:44:10. > :44:15.enough to be born into a point where my generation was the first
:44:15. > :44:20.one in Latin America to see, more or less, the kind of stablised
:44:20. > :44:25.democracy. The first time I voted of the first time that the PRI, now
:44:25. > :44:31.in power, when I voted of the first time that the PRI went out of power,
:44:31. > :44:35.after 72 years. You have lived here, I know, you have shaken cocktails
:44:35. > :44:38.and bars and in Islington and all the rest of it, when you look at
:44:38. > :44:43.the politics now, we were chatting, David Cameron's launching his
:44:43. > :44:49.referendum, if gets in, on the EU, how do you see something like that
:44:49. > :44:53.being run? Do you run that as a campaign for happiness? It depends
:44:54. > :44:59.on the question being asked, and how the question is being asked. I
:44:59. > :45:06.think it is definitely a call for an urgent discussion, back in those
:45:06. > :45:10.days, in 1988, the referendum was basically the only way that
:45:10. > :45:18.Pinochet could legitimise, and could appropriate democracy. He was
:45:18. > :45:23.going to be elected dictator, in a way. That was a very particular
:45:23. > :45:29.thing. But also in those days, there was less media. Television
:45:29. > :45:35.meant everything, you know, in the sense. Nowadays, the discussion can
:45:35. > :45:44.be much more open, it will be a little bit less serious, on some
:45:44. > :45:49.levels. It can be manipulated on a very "democratic" way. Does it feel
:45:49. > :45:52.manipulated here, or superficial, or do you think it is just not a
:45:52. > :46:01.tragic time? It is interesting to see how much participation there
:46:01. > :46:05.would be in a referendum like this. In this referendum in 1988, 7% of
:46:05. > :46:10.the voting population voted, -- 97% of the voting population voted,
:46:10. > :46:19.that is one of the biggest turnouts. In recent elections in Chile 30-40%
:46:19. > :46:23.of people voted in the elections. We're kind of also where the
:46:23. > :46:31.discontent for democracy is a credible one, we are questioning it.
:46:32. > :46:36.Democracy is a word that has been used and tampered. Let me --
:46:36. > :46:41.Stafrpled. We talked about Hollywood's love affair with you,
:46:41. > :46:46.you have been offered Zorro would you like to become part of that
:46:46. > :46:51.world now? I would like my own pathway, in a sense, that is what I
:46:51. > :46:55.have been lucky enough to be doing. If it involves every now and then
:46:56. > :47:00.getting a glimpse of how it is to work in Hollywood, yeah, I will.
:47:00. > :47:04.But just for the fun of it, really, it is another option. If I have to
:47:04. > :47:07.do only films in Latin America, I'm more than happy to do films in
:47:07. > :47:12.Latin America, no problem. Gael Garcia Bernal thank you. Thank you.
:47:12. > :47:22.Just before we go we will take you quickly through the front pages of
:47:22. > :47:44.
:47:44. > :47:54.That's all tonight. Join us again tomorrow.
:47:54. > :47:56.
:47:56. > :47:59.Goodbye for now. Hello, wind will strengthen again
:47:59. > :48:02.overnight. There is a belt of rain sweeping across the country. It
:48:02. > :48:05.should be clear by rush hour from England and Wales. But the rain
:48:05. > :48:09.lingering across Scotland. Some snow over the higher ground,
:48:09. > :48:12.elsewhere a lot of sunshine, it is the gusty winds that will be a
:48:12. > :48:17.particular feature, especially in northern England. Gusts of 50-60
:48:17. > :48:21.miles an hour. A westerly wind, if you are travelling on the A1 it
:48:21. > :48:24.could be tricky. Very few showers across England. Not as many as
:48:24. > :48:28.today, fleeting, few and far between. A good deal of sunshine.
:48:28. > :48:33.But the winds are going to be strong and gusty just about
:48:33. > :48:37.everywhere, I suspect. They will take the edge off the temperatures,
:48:37. > :48:44.just as they did today.-10 degrees. In Northern Ireland a windy start
:48:44. > :48:47.in the morning, possibly a bit less wint windy in the afternoon.
:48:47. > :48:51.Largely dry. The The wettest weather in Scotland, stuck across
:48:51. > :48:58.central areas, snow over the higher ground. It will feel cold across
:48:58. > :49:01.northern Scotland, not as windy as it was today. Lighter winds today.
:49:02. > :49:05.Turning colder across the north in particular. Thursday lots of
:49:05. > :49:09.sunshine across the southern half of the UK, for a while on Friday we