:00:12. > :00:16.The goal, eradicating extreme poverty.
:00:16. > :00:21.In Africa, David Cameron champions the ring-fencing of the aid budget.
:00:21. > :00:24.While, back home ...It Is the difficulty of the Conservative
:00:24. > :00:28.throughout the ages, that by doing things effectively, you sometimes
:00:28. > :00:33.appeared to be relatively stone- hearted. But sometimes it is better
:00:33. > :00:37.to accept that appearance and do genuine good. Also tonight, spear
:00:37. > :00:47.fishing, it doesn't just harm fish any more, if you have a computer,
:00:47. > :00:51.you should be worried. And... It's fabulous February,
:00:51. > :01:01.thousands of people are falling off the January wagon tonight. Some of
:01:01. > :01:04.
:01:04. > :01:09.them live on Newsnight! Your very good health!
:01:09. > :01:14.David Cameron's African odyssey ended today in Liberia. A country
:01:14. > :01:18.devastated by Civil War, with an economy to match. Most Liberians
:01:18. > :01:21.are chronically poor. What better place for the Prime Minister to co-
:01:21. > :01:26.-chair a UN meeting on how to end poverty. He asked schoolchildren
:01:26. > :01:29.what they wanted to become in life, many replied, doctors, lawyers or
:01:29. > :01:34.Government ministers. Mr Cameron joked, if you asked children in the
:01:34. > :01:39.UK, all they want to be is Popstars and footballers. He believes he can
:01:39. > :01:43.help realise those African children's dreams, by spending 0.7%
:01:44. > :01:48.of the UK's income on overseas aid. It is a policy under fire from some
:01:48. > :01:52.experts, and from within his own party. Criticism falls well short
:01:52. > :02:02.of Civil War in his party, but is growing.
:02:02. > :02:04.
:02:04. > :02:08.In a moment we will debate whether 0.7 should really be 0.
:02:08. > :02:18.What, if anything, can or should be done to help some of the poorest
:02:18. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:27.people in the world? Does aid actually help?
:02:27. > :02:31.For the Prime Minister, fulfiling a promise set out in both the
:02:31. > :02:35.Conservative manifesto and the coalition agreement, is central.
:02:35. > :02:44.That promise of reaching the United Nations target of spending 0.7% of
:02:44. > :02:48.national income on international development, will be met this year.
:02:48. > :02:51.In Liberia today, David Cameron chaired a UN meeting on long-term
:02:51. > :02:56.priorities for development and set out his objectives. I think it is
:02:56. > :03:02.very important we keep a focus on eradicating extreme poverty here in
:03:02. > :03:05.Liberia, one in ten children don't make it to the age of five. I also
:03:05. > :03:09.think it is important that we look at things that keep those countries
:03:09. > :03:13.poor, conflict, corruption, lack of justice, lack of the rule of law,
:03:13. > :03:17.those things matter as well as aid and money. For this Tory
:03:17. > :03:21.backbencher, not afraid to criticise the Government, on this
:03:21. > :03:24.issue he agrees with his party leader. This is the right thing to
:03:24. > :03:30.do that we tackle poverty, and child hunger, and make sure that we
:03:30. > :03:35.can ensure that we are seeing a reduction in the 4,000 babies dying
:03:35. > :03:38.a day of preventable diseases. It is also right, because it is in the
:03:38. > :03:41.British national interests and national security interests that we
:03:41. > :03:46.don't see fragile states become failed states. But, you don't have
:03:46. > :03:50.to look far to find Conservative sceptics. I don't criticise their
:03:50. > :03:55.motives, I just think, in principle, packs tears should be free to give
:03:55. > :03:59.and invest their money d tax-payers should be free to give and invest
:03:59. > :04:04.their monies. And that is a better way of using it than the Government
:04:04. > :04:07.takes its cut. A lot of wrong- headed benevolence? A lot of
:04:07. > :04:11.benevolence is, it is the criticism of the Conservative throughout the
:04:11. > :04:15.ages, by doing things effectively you appear to be stone-hearted.
:04:15. > :04:18.Sometimes it is better to accept that appearance and do genuine good,
:04:18. > :04:22.than appear to be warm-hearted and do less good.
:04:22. > :04:26.Here is the reality of the rocketing development budget. It
:04:26. > :04:33.has climbed significantly since the turn of the century, with a big
:04:33. > :04:37.further rise to come. From �8.6 billion, to �11.3 billion this year.
:04:37. > :04:42.Where does the money go? Figures from the budget in 2010/11, show a
:04:42. > :04:45.third was given to international organisations shoulds UN, for them
:04:45. > :04:50.0 distribute. Another third was split between charities, such as
:04:50. > :04:54.Save the Children, and projects set up directly to cut poverty. The
:04:54. > :04:58.remainder is on humanitarian assistance and technical co-
:04:58. > :05:01.operation, amongst other things. Critic of the Government as aid
:05:01. > :05:05.programme fear its rocketing budget could instill a lax attitude to
:05:05. > :05:08.money, where the focus is on spending, rather than spending
:05:08. > :05:13.wisely. It is not just newspaper campaign, Conservative backbenchers
:05:13. > :05:16.and a decent chunk of the British electorate making that point, it is
:05:16. > :05:21.also the Parliamentary Committee that oversees the department's work.
:05:21. > :05:23.The real challenge is to get to that peak without wasting money or
:05:23. > :05:27.using it inefficiently. We have certainly said the important thing
:05:27. > :05:30.is to ensure the money is well spent, and if there is any
:05:30. > :05:33.suggestion that it would not be possible to deliver that money
:05:33. > :05:36.effectively, then it would be better to postpone it.
:05:36. > :05:41.The Prime Minister stresses development is about much more than
:05:41. > :05:46.just aid, it's also about improving Government and developing the rule
:05:46. > :05:50.of law. But others question whether aid can be effective without
:05:50. > :05:55.governance getting better first. think there are cases, Ethiopia is
:05:55. > :05:58.a strong one, Rwanda is another, where you have repressive
:05:58. > :06:01.Governments, seen doing well economically, to which the UK is
:06:01. > :06:05.giving large amount of development assistance. The UK has to think
:06:05. > :06:08.large and creatively in channelling assistance that benefits poor
:06:08. > :06:11.people in those countries, but doesn't underpin authoritarianism.
:06:11. > :06:14.The goal of international development remains as clear as
:06:14. > :06:19.ever, trying to find the best methods, whatever they are, to
:06:19. > :06:26.improve the lives of those in desperate poverty. The UK's budget
:06:26. > :06:30.to do it is rising. Justifying that it is being spent in the right
:06:30. > :06:35.places, both stragically and geographically s now the central
:06:35. > :06:39.challenge. Let's talk about whether the 0.7%
:06:40. > :06:43.policy is the right policy. Justin Forsyth is chief executive of Save
:06:43. > :06:49.the Children, Richard Dowden is director of the Royal African
:06:49. > :06:52.Society, and of the Economist African editor for nearly ten years.
:06:52. > :06:56.In Washington, Clare Lockhead is from the Institute of State
:06:56. > :07:01.effectiveness, and author of the book, Fixing Failed States. Justin
:07:01. > :07:06.Forsyth what harm would come to overseas aid if 0.7 didn't exist?
:07:06. > :07:11.lot of harm. The really untold story, the unsung success over the
:07:11. > :07:14.last two decades is that aid has made a massive difference. We have
:07:14. > :07:17.actually dramatically reduced the number of children that die from
:07:17. > :07:20.things like diarrhoea and pneumonia, mums dying in childbirth. We have
:07:20. > :07:24.50 million more children in school. This is huge progress. We have
:07:24. > :07:28.actually made so much progress in the last two decades that we could
:07:28. > :07:31.be the first generation to end children dying from preventable
:07:31. > :07:35.illness. That has never been possible before. But it is now. Not
:07:35. > :07:39.only because of aid, it is because of economic growth, but it is also
:07:39. > :07:44.because of new inventions, like vaccines, and also the commitment
:07:44. > :07:49.of many Governments themselves. you telling me that difficult fid
:07:49. > :07:52.is the only Government that couldn't do -- DIFID is the only
:07:52. > :07:57.Government department that couldn't do more with less? You have to look
:07:57. > :08:02.at it within a global framework. We made the promises back in 2000, and
:08:02. > :08:07.reaffirmed in the G8 in 2005, that we would make our contribution. It
:08:07. > :08:12.is a tiny A money, 1p in every mound of British expenditure. 0.7%
:08:12. > :08:16.of our GNI, it is a small promise and we should keep it. The real
:08:16. > :08:20.reason is it is working. It is not only good for the poor, but it is
:08:20. > :08:26.also good for Britain. It is helping create jobs, it is also
:08:26. > :08:30.protecting our interests overseas. You think 0.7 is dangerous? I think
:08:30. > :08:34.a target is dangerous, in that sense, once you are committed to it
:08:34. > :08:38.you have to spend it. The only way, to use a phrase they use, to "push
:08:38. > :08:42.money out of the door", is to give it to Governments. In Africa, the
:08:42. > :08:46.place where I know, Governments are not really capable of using it
:08:46. > :08:50.effectively, many of them. So, a lot of it gets wasted, and the
:08:50. > :08:54.whole aid project is given a bad name because of that, and had they
:08:54. > :09:01.been able to, maybe progress more slowly and subtley, then it would
:09:01. > :09:04.be more effective. Do you think it is a harmful splurge of money?
:09:04. > :09:07.You just have to see the ineffectiveness of African
:09:07. > :09:13.Governments, of many of them, not awful them, many of them very
:09:13. > :09:18.corrupt, but it also disempowers people. If the money is just given,
:09:18. > :09:22.if they are not part of the process of development themselves, and the
:09:22. > :09:26.splurges of money almost prevent that happening, then people are
:09:26. > :09:30.disempowered, and they are not able to, my fundamental belief is that,
:09:30. > :09:34.only people can develop themselves. They can't be developed by outside
:09:34. > :09:37.money. If you take one issue, vaccines, so only a few years ago
:09:37. > :09:41.we used to have a lot more, millions more people, nearly 12
:09:41. > :09:47.million children in the world dying from diarrhoea, pneumonia and
:09:47. > :09:50.Malaria, because we invented some vaccines and invested money aid,
:09:50. > :09:53.through Governments but also non- Government organisations, we
:09:53. > :09:56.vaccinated over 250 million children. I don't think anyone's
:09:56. > :10:00.suggesting that good isn't being done with some of the money. But
:10:00. > :10:04.sir Malcolm Bruce, in the report, said he worries that pressure to
:10:04. > :10:07.meet targets, to increase overseas development aid, could lead to poor
:10:07. > :10:11.spending decisions, and the department should be prepared to
:10:11. > :10:15.miss aid targets? There is always a risk of targets doing. That without
:10:15. > :10:18.the targets, without the Millennium Development Goals themselves, we
:10:18. > :10:22.wouldn't have made so much progress. We have made dramatic progress
:10:23. > :10:26.because the world has focused its attentions. Rather than criticising
:10:26. > :10:30.aid, we should be celebrating the progress, and then saying how much
:10:30. > :10:35.further could we go now because of the progress that has been made.
:10:35. > :10:39.Clare Lockhead, you don't have a real problem with 0.7, but you
:10:39. > :10:43.think that policy is at least as important as the money? Certainly,
:10:43. > :10:48.I think the 0.7 commitment has been important as a significantle
:10:48. > :10:52.national, as a symbol of the UK's commitment to development and --
:10:52. > :10:57.significant as a symbol of the UK's commitment to development and
:10:57. > :11:01.ending poverty. It is not a stable world. It is not
:11:01. > :11:05.about the money, but about the type of policies, the design of policies.
:11:05. > :11:09.Sometimes budget support I think does work, sometimes aid to
:11:09. > :11:11.programmes does work. But the real question is how the host
:11:11. > :11:14.Governments themselves are organising their ministries, their
:11:14. > :11:17.own programmes, their own policies, and in that story of how
:11:17. > :11:22.Governments do deliver to their people, aid is part of the story,
:11:22. > :11:26.but it is only part. The other issue, is, I think, as Richard is
:11:26. > :11:30.mentioning, it is the amount of aid, the input is not an effective
:11:30. > :11:35.measure of policy, it is the outcome. It is what is achieved
:11:35. > :11:40.with that money that is really going to count. Are targets
:11:40. > :11:42.sometimes harmful? I think so. On the Millennium Development Goals
:11:42. > :11:45.themselves they have been enormously important to mobilise
:11:45. > :11:49.the world, to mobilise people, Government, aid providers around
:11:49. > :11:52.the world, to meet those targets, and the discussion going on at the
:11:52. > :11:57.moment about what replaces them is important. But, again, they can be
:11:57. > :12:01.too rigid, and they can become an obstacle to finding what are the
:12:01. > :12:04.real solutions in a particular context. That requires really
:12:05. > :12:08.careful policy analysis, with the people who live in the country, and
:12:08. > :12:11.bringing them together, to work out what is the right policy for the
:12:11. > :12:14.right moment. Again, it is sometimes those policies, it is
:12:14. > :12:18.that policy design and not always the money. The other element is,
:12:18. > :12:21.there is an enormous amount, despite the global financial crisis,
:12:21. > :12:26.of private money, of investment money, looking for opportunities.
:12:26. > :12:31.Another challenge is, how do harness that private investment
:12:31. > :12:34.money to opportunities to infrastructure. To invest in
:12:34. > :12:37.programmes. Richard Dowden, on harvesting that private enterprise?
:12:37. > :12:42.There is a lot of investment going in, but the really worrying thing
:12:42. > :12:47.is the money flowing out of Africa. Something like for every dollar in
:12:47. > :12:51.aid, ten dollars is going out illicitly. This is big companies
:12:51. > :12:56.mispricing, trade mispricing, it is corruption money, and where does it
:12:56. > :13:00.go? It goes into British, mainly into British offshore islands where
:13:00. > :13:04.there are tax havens, where there is very little accountability. All
:13:04. > :13:09.the things that we insist on in their Governments, we don't do. No
:13:09. > :13:14.accountability, no transparency, and then it flows back into London
:13:14. > :13:18.to the City of London. If you really, really wanted to help these
:13:18. > :13:22.poor countries, then you would prevent, that you would have a lot
:13:22. > :13:25.more transparency in these big companies and how they misprice and
:13:25. > :13:29.how the corruption money flows out. Every time there is a big scandal,
:13:29. > :13:33.where do we find the money, oh it's in London, what a surprise. If we
:13:33. > :13:37.had stopped that, and made sure that money was transferred, then I
:13:37. > :13:40.think we might get some progress in Africa. Justin Forsyth, a critical
:13:41. > :13:45.problem for many people in this country, is that Britain, while
:13:45. > :13:48.richer than the countries we are talking about, not flush. People
:13:48. > :13:51.are facing cutbacks to their own personal budgets, and they wonder
:13:52. > :13:55.why their Government is committed to spending so much money on
:13:55. > :14:00.overseas aid? I think actually the opposite, I think British people,
:14:00. > :14:03.it goes deep into our DNA, whether it is Comic Relief, or Live Aid, or
:14:03. > :14:07.Oxfam or Save the Children. That is because they choose to give, not
:14:07. > :14:10.coming from the tax? There is a lot of British support for the aid
:14:10. > :14:13.budget. We know it is tough in Britain, we work up and down the
:14:13. > :14:17.country with very poor children and families. It is not comparable to
:14:17. > :14:19.the poorest countries and the poorest people in the world. There
:14:19. > :14:23.is a huge groundswell of public support for doing good in the world.
:14:23. > :14:26.I think it is in our interests. I think it is a way of combatting
:14:26. > :14:30.terrorism, it is a way of actually creating growth long-term that
:14:30. > :14:33.creates British jobs. I do agree with Richard, it is not all about
:14:34. > :14:38.aid, it is about policies, it is about governance, and it is about
:14:38. > :14:42.tax. I think this huge diversion of tax revenues by big companies is
:14:42. > :14:49.critical. Because aid is only one small intervention against many
:14:49. > :14:53.others. Clare Lockhead, is there a been fit to Britain's aid budget
:14:53. > :14:58.that we don't directly -- a benefit of Britain's aid budget that we
:14:58. > :15:04.don't see, our standing in the world or improving our security?
:15:04. > :15:06.think so. Britain has enormous influence, not only through DIFD
:15:07. > :15:10.itself, but through its participation and influence in the
:15:10. > :15:17.UN and the World Bank. That influence is tremenduously
:15:17. > :15:24.important. It gives Britain weight in policy decisions. The question
:15:24. > :15:27.of to what extent aid development contributes to countries is more
:15:27. > :15:31.and more appreciated. The World Bank last year the theme was
:15:31. > :15:34.security, justice and jobs, in the deliberations on the future of the
:15:34. > :15:36.Millennium Development Goals, there is even now talk that security and
:15:36. > :15:40.human security might be incorporated into those. I think,
:15:40. > :15:44.yes, the security dividend of the investment and development is very
:15:44. > :15:49.clear. Thank you very much.
:15:49. > :15:53.In a few moments, we will hear from these guests, who, as you can he
:15:53. > :15:56.see, have already been boozing before and during the programme in
:15:56. > :15:59.our Green Room. It is a big treat for two of them, who have been
:15:59. > :16:04.drying to have a dry January. We will discuss whether abstaining for
:16:04. > :16:08.a month is good for you. Before that, a report from Mark
:16:08. > :16:12.Urban, which, on the face of it, may have been conceived after a
:16:12. > :16:16.light lunch with Oliver Reed and Keith Floyd, it links espionage,
:16:16. > :16:22.the New York Times, China and something unspeakable happening to
:16:22. > :16:27.fish! Spear phishing, in which hackers
:16:27. > :16:33.send e-mails which appear to come from a trusted sort, but help
:16:33. > :16:38.obtain secret information. Spear fishing may be a harmless aquatic
:16:39. > :16:42.past time for some, but it is also one of the most types of cyber
:16:42. > :16:47.attack. An e-mail, often from a colleague or friend, links the
:16:47. > :16:51.victim to a web address where information is taken from them, or
:16:51. > :16:54.spyware downloaded on to their computer. It is incredible
:16:54. > :16:57.difficult to pinpoint the source of a cyber attack, with targeting
:16:58. > :17:02.attacks against corporate organisations, it can be some what
:17:02. > :17:07.easier, but when you are looking at cyber attacks from nation states,
:17:07. > :17:12.they are very good at covering their trail.
:17:12. > :17:19.Now the New York Times is saying that its people in China were
:17:19. > :17:23.targeted by cyber attack, and they believe, official, angry at recent
:17:23. > :17:27.stories about corruption may have behind it. The Foreign Ministry in
:17:27. > :17:32.Beijing denies. That TRANSLATION: It is unprofessional
:17:32. > :17:36.and irresponsible to decide about the origins of hacking attacks,
:17:36. > :17:42.based on some preliminary materials. It is just ridiculous to even link
:17:42. > :17:48.the attacks to the Chinese Government and military. China has
:17:48. > :17:51.been accused many times, but often on circumstantial evidence. In 2009,
:17:51. > :17:57.Coca-Cola came under a cyber attack, that targeted information relating
:17:57. > :18:03.to a planned takeover of a Chinese drinks company. It was spyware
:18:03. > :18:09.already, but was this state or commercial espionage. In 2011, a
:18:09. > :18:13.virus nicknamed Shadey Rat, was discovered in hundreds of computers
:18:13. > :18:17.longing to the UN, International Olympic Committee and other
:18:17. > :18:21.organisations. Anti-virus specialist, McOf a fee, blamed it
:18:21. > :18:24.on China, because the targets were deemed interesting to them. As for
:18:25. > :18:30.the latest alleged attacks on the New York Times. They started each
:18:30. > :18:39.day at 8.00am, Beijing time, even though they were routed via
:18:39. > :18:43.American internet addresses. This flags up the exact problem, you try
:18:43. > :18:46.to find little pieces of evidence to try to make a big picture. On
:18:46. > :18:51.their own none of the evidence would pass any legal test, what
:18:51. > :18:55.people try to do is put them together to make a probable case
:18:55. > :18:59.that this particular action was initiated by a particular group or
:18:59. > :19:03.individual. Unfortunately that doesn't stack up. If you put enough
:19:03. > :19:07.half truths together, that doesn't make a whole truth.
:19:07. > :19:11.Cyber attacks have been part of espionage for many years now. These
:19:11. > :19:15.pictures of a nuke clear reactor under construction in Syria, appear
:19:15. > :19:20.to have come from an engineer's progress report. Intelligence
:19:20. > :19:23.specialists suggest it was intercepted by Israel. But what
:19:23. > :19:28.about cyberweapons? Things capable of harming people and
:19:28. > :19:32.infrastructure? The specter of sieber weapons,
:19:32. > :19:37.computer attacks that could -- cyberweapons, computer attacks that
:19:37. > :19:40.could close down power stations, or open a dam to cause massive fluids,
:19:40. > :19:43.is something that haunts western Governments. How real is the
:19:43. > :19:49.possibility of such an attack, one thing is clear, evidence that
:19:49. > :19:58.people have tried to do that is much, much rarer than the espionage
:19:58. > :20:00.type of cyber attack. The stugs net virus was used to
:20:00. > :20:06.disable Iran's programme. Authoritative briefing suggested
:20:06. > :20:10.the US did it. The US is proving to protect its own critical
:20:11. > :20:17.infrastructure, amid claims it is wide open to a cyber9/11. What
:20:17. > :20:21.happens when the electric grid goes down. We saw that during Sandy, you
:20:21. > :20:25.see how that impacts everything, from the ability to heat homes, to
:20:25. > :20:29.the ability to pump gasoline, to the ability to have loyaltying at
:20:29. > :20:35.night, everything. So, when -- lighting at night. Everything. When
:20:35. > :20:38.we look at the nation's critical infrom structure and where it is
:20:38. > :20:42.vulnerable, -- infrastructure, and where it is vulnerable, it is where
:20:42. > :20:47.the cyberworld we live in. Cyberdefence has become a
:20:47. > :20:51.multibillion priority in the US and elsewhere. But the emphasis it is
:20:51. > :20:57.now given may say much about the power that western countries
:20:57. > :21:01.already feel they have to damage the infrastructure of their enemies.
:21:01. > :21:07.Now some questions for you. What day of the week is it? What is the
:21:07. > :21:11.name of this programme? Is the Pope Catholic? If you answered Thursday,
:21:11. > :21:15.the Graham Norton Show, and what's the Pope, it is possible you are
:21:15. > :21:19.celebrating the end of an alcohol- free January, by committing a
:21:19. > :21:23.violent assault on your drinks cabinet. Tens of thousands of
:21:23. > :21:28.people have given up the demon drink for January, some for
:21:28. > :21:32.themselves, other for charities like Cancer Research, who have been
:21:32. > :21:36.encouraging a dry and thethon, no alcohol for a month but sponsorship
:21:37. > :21:41.money for charities. The figures suggest a lot of us could do with
:21:41. > :21:45.realising water is not just a mixer. In 2010 in England and Wales,
:21:45. > :21:49.people spent �42 billion on alcohol. It is estimated around 17 million
:21:49. > :21:57.working days are lost each other, due to alcohol's effects. That is
:21:57. > :22:00.not all. In 2010/11, there were more than a million alcohol-related
:22:00. > :22:05.hospital admission. According to the office of national statistics
:22:05. > :22:08.there were 9,000 deaths in England and Wales that were alcohol-related
:22:08. > :22:11.in 2011. Drink is making people take days off work, making them ill
:22:12. > :22:16.and making them dead. Let me walk in a straight line over to where
:22:16. > :22:21.our guests are waiting. Richard Taylor is from Cancer Research UK,
:22:21. > :22:27.one of the charities who encouraged people to give up the drink for a
:22:27. > :22:32.month. Andrew Langford from the British Liver Trust, and the
:22:32. > :22:37.journalist, Peter Oborne, he has had a torrid month with only four
:22:37. > :22:40.or five lapses. Tell me why there is something wrong with people
:22:40. > :22:43.abstaining for a month? Nothing wrong at all with people abstaining
:22:43. > :22:46.for a month. It is a great opportunity to look at people's
:22:46. > :22:51.drinking, people to think about how much alcohol they are drinking.
:22:51. > :22:54.What is very important is that they then look at that for the rest of
:22:54. > :22:57.the year too. If we are to look at the health benefits of giving up
:22:57. > :23:01.the booze, then it is very important that people look at that
:23:01. > :23:06.all year round. Particularly on a weekly basis. Do you think that
:23:06. > :23:10.will happen with these charity efforts? Yes, I think it could do.
:23:10. > :23:15.If we can give very clear messages that people, if they take two to
:23:15. > :23:19.three days off every week, and have a couple of dry days every week,
:23:19. > :23:22.consecutive days, then he they can also benefit their health -- they
:23:22. > :23:27.can also benefit their health. it good for people's livers to
:23:27. > :23:32.abstain for a whole month and start again? Any period of abstinence is
:23:32. > :23:36.good for the liver. What would be a shame is for those people who have
:23:36. > :23:40.abstained during January, obviously if they return to the same drinking
:23:40. > :23:44.habits that might have been problematic beforehand, any good
:23:44. > :23:49.they will have done will slowly be undone. Richard Taylor, you have
:23:49. > :23:53.been trying to abstain, haven't you, how has it been going? Well, I
:23:53. > :23:59.can't say I have enjoyed every moment of it. I lapsed one night.
:23:59. > :24:05.Was it the longest month of your life? You could say, that I lapsed
:24:05. > :24:11.on my birthday. Big lapse? No, a couple of drinks. You have donated
:24:11. > :24:14.extra money for charity? Cancer Research UK where it came from, the
:24:14. > :24:18.Dryathlon, we have had 35,000 people take part, it is a
:24:18. > :24:23.fundraising campaign not a health campaign. The motives for those
:24:23. > :24:27.taking part has been about raising money for Cancer Research, �3
:24:27. > :24:30.million in a month. Are you worried about health effects on people?
:24:30. > :24:33.are worried about the health effects of alcohol, I agree with
:24:33. > :24:36.everything Andrew has said. The point I'm making is we are
:24:36. > :24:40.concerned, we are finding new treatments for cancer patient, and
:24:40. > :24:43.�3 million goes a long way to research that problem. That is
:24:43. > :24:47.where this campaign has been particularly successful. What about
:24:47. > :24:53.Richard buying his way out of his dry month? I have to say, I do find
:24:53. > :24:59.that quite difficult. I think it makes it almost like a joke to be
:24:59. > :25:04.treating any alcohol in that way. I think if it came with the caviated
:25:04. > :25:10.message of saying, you know, alcohol does cause problems for a
:25:10. > :25:15.lot of people. If we are looking at 16,500 liver deaths every year, the
:25:15. > :25:18.majority of which are alcohol- related, then I think whatever
:25:19. > :25:24.messages go out, particularly from health charities, need that extra
:25:24. > :25:27.message with them to say this is a serious problem. Richard? I can't
:25:27. > :25:31.disagree with Andrew, we have been very careful with the statements we
:25:31. > :25:35.have put in the campaign. We have encouraged people not to start
:25:35. > :25:39.drinking with aveingsence as soon as February comes around. From that
:25:39. > :25:43.perspective, there is not much to disagree with. I'm not here to pass
:25:43. > :25:48.judgment on people's ordinary drinking habits, I think to have
:25:48. > :25:54.two or three glasses, once only in a month, is hardly a problem, it
:25:54. > :25:58.won't lead me to start an alcohol binge from tomorrow. That is
:25:58. > :26:06.slightly absurd. Was your's for charity or for yourself? I was
:26:06. > :26:10.asked to do it by the Daily Telegraph, on behalf of Alcohol
:26:10. > :26:16.Concern. That is your own charity? How was it? It was even more
:26:16. > :26:23.desperate than I thought I would do. This glass of Glenmorange is
:26:23. > :26:28.terrific. You said you lapsed four or five times? Is that seven --
:26:28. > :26:32.Does that mean seven or eight? is for or five serious lapses,
:26:32. > :26:36.there is still 26 days without a drunk. It is a daft month for doing,
:26:37. > :26:40.it is the longest, darkest month of the year, you should do it in July?
:26:40. > :26:44.I don't think so, what we have tapped into here is the social norm,
:26:44. > :26:48.where people at new year at the side they want to lose a bit of
:26:48. > :26:53.weight, or save a bit of money, and in this case we have encouraged
:26:53. > :26:57.them to exercise with self- discipline, that can't be a bad
:26:57. > :27:05.thing to reflect how much alcohol you take in a month. What was the
:27:05. > :27:10.cause of the lapses? Just jolly hard work giving up drink. You guys
:27:10. > :27:15.have dinner with friends, it is incredibly anti-social to sit there
:27:15. > :27:19.munching on mineral water. So I thought I did rather well, actually,
:27:19. > :27:22.with just the five or so lapses. What was the cause of it, social
:27:22. > :27:27.occasions? Social occasion, they are the dangerous one. I very much
:27:27. > :27:30.agree, by the way. What I did find was, I felt so much healthier all
:27:30. > :27:38.month. I hadn't really anticipated this, I slept well, instead of
:27:38. > :27:42.waking up in the middle of the night, I lost quite a lot of weight.
:27:42. > :27:48.I felt much healthier. You were worried, you said in the paper, you
:27:48. > :27:52.were worried about becoming alcohol-dependant? I realised I was
:27:52. > :27:56.definitely alcohol-dependant, there is no question, I resented having a
:27:57. > :28:02.drink in the evening as much as I did, it became clear to me that I
:28:02. > :28:06.definitely was alcohol-dependant. How is it now, with the whiskey?
:28:06. > :28:09.do think there is a great deal of wisdom, it is delicious, in what
:28:09. > :28:16.you are saying, one could try to give up two or three days a woke,
:28:16. > :28:20.and lay off it a bit. I think that is a way of making sure you are in
:28:20. > :28:24.charge. Imagine how awful it would be if we got to the stage, as it
:28:24. > :28:29.does happen with some people, that you can't drink at all?
:28:29. > :28:33.couldn't live? I just realised how dreadful it would have been over
:28:33. > :28:36.the last month. Imagine that became years and years of purgatory,
:28:36. > :28:41.really. Are you saying all these positive things because you are on
:28:41. > :28:47.the tele, or really, in February and March you are going to abstain
:28:47. > :28:53.two or three, or maybe four days a woke? I will aim to carry on
:28:53. > :29:00.abstaining two, ideally three days a week. I realised how much, how I
:29:00. > :29:06.got addicted to the stuff. I hadn't realised. But I do enjoy it.
:29:06. > :29:13.Everything in, you have to manage it proper low. Don't you find
:29:13. > :29:18.teetotalers the most awful bores? And they are dangerous, George W
:29:18. > :29:23.Bush was, and Hitler, they go around and start wars, Winston
:29:23. > :29:26.Churchill fought Hitler, on a marvellous diet of champagne and
:29:26. > :29:29.Brandy. Teetotaler, watch out for them, you are much safer with
:29:29. > :29:33.somebody who drinks. How does it feel now, how much have you had
:29:33. > :29:37.tonight. We started making you drink in the grown room, I know,
:29:37. > :29:42.does it feel good? It feels quite lovely, yeah it does. You have been
:29:42. > :29:46.a bit better, you haven't made a big dent in that? I have had had a
:29:46. > :29:51.couple of gulps, but I'm rather looking forward to my first drink
:29:51. > :29:54.in month. Will your drinking change in February? I think it will. I can
:29:54. > :29:57.imagine not drinking for three, four nights a week, without any
:29:57. > :30:01.trouble at all, because I have seen the benefits of it. Like you, I
:30:01. > :30:06.have slept better, I have lost weight, and I have to say I have
:30:06. > :30:09.saved some money. Andrew is any of this going to have an effect on the
:30:09. > :30:14.nation's liver? It will if people carry this on. If they take the
:30:14. > :30:18.example that's been set, then I think it is very important. Thank
:30:18. > :30:22.you all very much for taking the time, good luck throughout February,