:00:16. > :00:19.400 MPs say yes to gay marriage, and make history. But the majority
:00:19. > :00:25.of David Cameron's Conservative Party didn't back him. One member
:00:25. > :00:29.of the cabinet tells us some Tories have further to go than others.
:00:29. > :00:34.Sometimes parts of the Conservative Party move, but they move more
:00:34. > :00:37.slowly, or a few paces behind prevailing social attitudes, or the
:00:37. > :00:43.centre of gravity of social attitudes. I will speak to the
:00:43. > :00:51.woman who was married in the world's first same-sex ceremony.
:00:51. > :00:57.Deputy heads will roll in the LIBOR rate-fixes scandal, as RBS stands
:00:57. > :01:00.to pay �4 billion. We speak exclusively to France's
:01:00. > :01:07.Front National, Marine Le Pen, she tells us she supports David
:01:07. > :01:12.Cameron's aim of renegotiation in Europe. And: A lot of his people
:01:12. > :01:17.think he know what type of man he is, I have a clear picture of the
:01:18. > :01:22.type of sense of humour he has. Fans of the cross word writer,
:01:22. > :01:31.Araucaria, were left lost for words after solving one of his clues, we
:01:31. > :01:34.speak to him. Good evening, same-sex couple also
:01:34. > :01:37.soon enjoy the same rights to get married as they have in a dozen
:01:37. > :01:41.other countries. Following this evening's Commons vote, Britain is
:01:41. > :01:45.now in the vanguard of equality. But David Cameron's desire to
:01:45. > :01:51.modernise the country has split his party. More Tory MPs voted against
:01:51. > :01:54.the bill than for it. Including 18 members of the Government, two of
:01:54. > :01:57.them cabinet ministers, with dissenters talking about risking
:01:57. > :02:01.the life chances of British children, and pining that marriage
:02:01. > :02:05.should not be seen through the merciless prism of equality. On
:02:05. > :02:15.this controversial issue, might the cost to David Cameron outweigh the
:02:15. > :02:16.
:02:16. > :02:19.gain. Here is our political editor. The beauty of marriage, said the
:02:19. > :02:23.Education Secretary at the weekend, was about that moment between two
:02:23. > :02:29.people when they go from thinking about me to we. But today David
:02:29. > :02:34.Cameron was confronted with no such mind meld. A reminder that many of
:02:34. > :02:41.his MPs are far from thinking of "we" not "me", when they regard
:02:41. > :02:48.their party and their party leader. The aye to the left 400, the nos to
:02:48. > :02:51.the left, 175. The ayes have it. In that vote of a few hours ago,
:02:51. > :02:56.more Conservative MPs disagreed with the Prime Minister than agreed
:02:56. > :03:00.with him. They didn't agree with this. There is something special
:03:00. > :03:07.about marriage. It is not about religion, it is not about morality,
:03:07. > :03:10.it is about commitment. By the way, I think it matters, and I think it
:03:10. > :03:16.means something, whether you are a man and a woman, or a woman and a
:03:16. > :03:19.woman, or a man and another man. They debated all afternoon. One of
:03:19. > :03:23.the most important figures on Cameron's backbenches did not feel
:03:23. > :03:26.he had assurance that those who did not want to marry gay couples would
:03:26. > :03:31.not be overruled by European Courts. I will vote against this measure
:03:31. > :03:36.tonight, not because I think the world will end if we see it pass.
:03:36. > :03:39.But because I have serious misgivings that in spite of the
:03:39. > :03:44.minister's commendable efforts, recognised by the Church of England,
:03:44. > :03:47.as has been commented earlier in the debate. It is impossible to
:03:47. > :03:51.guarantee that religious freedom will not be compromised.
:03:51. > :03:55.couldn't give a guarantee that people would be protected.
:03:55. > :03:58.their religious freedom would be protect, because it is impossible
:03:58. > :04:01.to guarantee it T will be taken to the European Court, and if we pass
:04:01. > :04:08.this measure, then it will be taken to the European Court.
:04:08. > :04:14.If the Government is serious about this, take it away, abolish the
:04:14. > :04:18.civil partnerships bill, abolish civil marriage, and create a civil
:04:18. > :04:22.union bill, that applies to all people, irrespective of their
:04:22. > :04:25.sexuality or their relationships, that means brothers and brothers,
:04:25. > :04:31.and sisters and sisters, and brothers and sisters as well. That
:04:31. > :04:35.would be a way forward. This is not. It is a sad day for me, Mr Deputy
:04:36. > :04:42.Speaker, it is my saddest day as a member of this House, when my party
:04:42. > :04:48.brings in a bill which I'm fundamentally opposed to. Why is my
:04:48. > :04:53.view, or the loader of my party, any more important than the person
:04:53. > :05:00.in the Dog and Duck in Wellingborough. So what is the
:05:00. > :05:05.opinion in Bone's constituency, this isn't the Dog and duck, but it
:05:05. > :05:09.is the Hind Hotel, we brought together three Conservatives and a
:05:09. > :05:13.gay couple. Call me old fashioned, but as a Christian I believe that
:05:13. > :05:17.marriage is for the procreation of children, and it is between a man
:05:17. > :05:22.and a woman. And I really think we're in a very dangerous situation
:05:22. > :05:26.when we let the state change religion or change faith. I think
:05:26. > :05:31.the Government has been very careful, overly careful, they have
:05:31. > :05:36.got a quadruple lock on this, they have banned the Church of England
:05:36. > :05:40.and the Church of Wales. That is bizarre in itself. Apparently they
:05:40. > :05:44.weren't consulted to any great degree. Other faiths are allowed to
:05:44. > :05:47.opt in, which is perfectly right. If a faith looks at its
:05:47. > :05:52.congregation and say we are all happy with blessing same-sex
:05:52. > :05:56.marriages, the Quakers want to and the liberal Jewish sects want to,
:05:56. > :06:01.that should be allowed. I don't think it necessarily stems, with
:06:01. > :06:08.respect to Barbara from religion, I think it stems from a disbelief
:06:08. > :06:12.that something as fundamental as marriage could be tinkered with,
:06:12. > :06:17.whether or not it may seem to you that it is unfair at the moment. I
:06:17. > :06:24.think for many of us we feel that it's, if you are going to interfere
:06:24. > :06:27.with marriage, what about interfering with death and birth.
:06:27. > :06:32.Many Conservative rebels feared that religious organisations, due
:06:32. > :06:37.to have to opt in if they want to hold gay weddings, would actually
:06:37. > :06:42.feel coerced. One Unitarian church up in North London is already gung
:06:42. > :06:50.ho. Up here in Newington Green, historically outside the City of
:06:50. > :06:55.London, they have made up their own rules, Tom Pane and people like
:06:55. > :07:00.Benjamin Franklin worshiped here. And 300 years on they want to let
:07:00. > :07:06.gay couples married. David Cameron might feel he's more in the role of
:07:06. > :07:09.Edmund Burke, but on this he feels a radical, he wants gay couples to
:07:09. > :07:13.marry because he's a Conservative, not despite being one. This former
:07:13. > :07:17.minister in David Cameron's Government agrees. Entering a civil
:07:17. > :07:22.partnership was the most important thing I have done in my life. When
:07:22. > :07:26.I was born, homosexual conduct was a crime, not so long ago it was
:07:26. > :07:31.possible to sack someone because they were gay. People did not dare
:07:31. > :07:35.to be open, thank goodness so much has changed in my lifetime. Others
:07:35. > :07:39.took on their Conservative colleagues, and indeed, the Church
:07:39. > :07:45.of England. We may have gone two steps forward, but I fear we have
:07:45. > :07:51.also gone one step backward. The modernisation of the Conservative
:07:51. > :07:55.Party is not yet complete. My party should never flinch from the
:07:55. > :07:59.requirement that we must continue this prosession. Otherwise we may
:07:59. > :08:05.end ourselves up like the Republican Party, who lost an
:08:05. > :08:08.election last year that they could have won, were it not for their
:08:08. > :08:12.socially conservative agenda. And belatedly, only this weekend, the
:08:12. > :08:16.Church of England has finally admitted that it is not realistic
:08:16. > :08:20.or likely that churches will be forced to conduct same-sex weddings.
:08:20. > :08:25.I made that point earlier. But so easy to say that now, isn't it,
:08:25. > :08:28.when practically every person I meet, who doesn't follow the
:08:28. > :08:34.deliberations of political detail in great detail has said to me,
:08:35. > :08:38.it's about weddings in churches for gay people, isn't it? But with the
:08:38. > :08:43.issue spliting the Conservatives, and uniting most of Labour, but by
:08:43. > :08:47.no means all of Labour, the Shadow Home Secretary had fun. We all love
:08:47. > :08:51.the idea of a wedding, we all support the idea of a strong
:08:51. > :08:56.marriage. We all clearly like a good party, I notice from the
:08:56. > :09:01.impact assessment that the department has produced passing
:09:01. > :09:06.this legislation they reckon could lead to �14 million extra spent on
:09:06. > :09:09.celebrations. Which is a lot of confetti and rubber chicken. Mr
:09:09. > :09:12.Speaker, I don't think it will be quite enough to boost the economy
:09:12. > :09:16.and deliver Plan B, but I guess the Chancellor needs all the help he
:09:16. > :09:19.can get. The Conservatives will run a very
:09:19. > :09:22.presidential campaign ahead of the next election, they will ask you do
:09:22. > :09:25.you want to vote for this man, David Cameron to be your Prime
:09:25. > :09:28.Minister next. In order to do that, they will need to emphasise
:09:28. > :09:32.personal decisions he has taken. Included in that will be gay
:09:32. > :09:39.marriage, especially because he's done so with considerable
:09:39. > :09:44.opposition. To get up to the 43% that are a majority for the party,
:09:44. > :09:47.they have to get Labour and Lib Dem voters. Tonight the Prime Minister
:09:47. > :09:51.will be elated he is one step nearer to becoming the Prime
:09:51. > :09:58.Minister who legaliseed gay marriage. But his Attorney-General
:09:58. > :10:01.abstained, and two other cabinet ministers went against. The idea of
:10:01. > :10:06.a united party front is more in sickness than in health.
:10:06. > :10:12.Shortly after that vote I spoke to the Cabinet Office Minister, Reggie
:10:12. > :10:16.Maudling, widely seen as the -- Francis Maude, seen as the high
:10:16. > :10:20.priest of Tory modernisation. There will be same-sex marriage in spite
:10:20. > :10:24.of Conservative backbenchers. think the Conservative Party
:10:24. > :10:27.divided roughly like the country does, a lot of people on one side
:10:27. > :10:31.and the other. It has gone through parliament with a big majority,
:10:31. > :10:36.that is fine. As a modernising PM, which is very much what David
:10:36. > :10:40.Cameron sees himself as, he hasn't been able to carry the party on a
:10:40. > :10:44.key plank of his modernisation of the Tories? It is a free vote, MPs
:10:44. > :10:48.make their own mind up. If they had wanted to, they would have backed
:10:48. > :10:52.him as a moderniser, to show a party in touch with the 21st
:10:53. > :10:56.century, they turned their back on him? They didn't turn their back on
:10:57. > :11:01.him. This is very overemotional reaction to it. This was a free
:11:01. > :11:06.vote, where MPs are encouraged to exercise their judgment. On
:11:06. > :11:11.something which isn't a party matter. Yes, but when I'm just
:11:11. > :11:16.giving you a couple of phrases here, Gerald Howarth, one map, "this bill
:11:16. > :11:23.is about risking the life chances of British children", another one,
:11:23. > :11:28.Edward Lee, "marriage should not be seen through the merciless prism of
:11:28. > :11:31.equality", someone saying it is almost Orwellian what you are
:11:31. > :11:34.asking to do. What message does it send to the country about the
:11:34. > :11:39.Conservative Party? Not a strong one in any direction. I don't agree
:11:39. > :11:43.with my colleagues who have expressed themselves in that way. I
:11:43. > :11:47.and many Conservative MPs, and many members of the Conservative Party,
:11:47. > :11:53.are completely relaxed about giving the benefits of marriage, making
:11:53. > :11:56.them available to all couples, whether they are different sex or
:11:56. > :12:00.same-sex. We think this is not about making a dogma out of
:12:00. > :12:05.equality, but the benefits of marriage should be available to
:12:05. > :12:10.everyone. But you feel very strongly about this, and you talked
:12:10. > :12:15.of your regret that you had voted for Section 28 many years ago. But
:12:15. > :12:22.it was also informed by your brother's sexuality. So you have a
:12:22. > :12:27.personal stake in this? Yes. I think I'm broadly the same
:12:27. > :12:30.Conservative I was in the 1980s, when I started my long and
:12:30. > :12:37.checkered political career. I'm a fiscal Conservative, I'm an
:12:37. > :12:42.economic liberal, I believe in open markets, I'm a moderate realistic
:12:42. > :12:48.euro-sceptic, but I'm more socially liberal than I was. But the country
:12:48. > :12:54.is more socially liberal than it was, we're a much more tolerant
:12:54. > :13:01.society. We understand and respect the way in which people live their
:13:01. > :13:05.lives more than we Z that's good. At the time when Section 28 was
:13:05. > :13:11.voted through, and I do regret that I supported that, I regret that the
:13:11. > :13:19.Government then put it through, and I didn't understand then the way in
:13:19. > :13:24.which it came to be seen by gay people as a sort of emblem of
:13:24. > :13:29.hostility. We were right, subsequently, to repeal it. But, I
:13:29. > :13:32.think you have spoken movingly about had there been more tolerance,
:13:32. > :13:36.your brother may not have had the same fate that he had. His
:13:36. > :13:39.sexuality had often to be hidden, and was a thing that was not to be
:13:39. > :13:44.discussed, and that perhaps drove him into areas he wouldn't have
:13:44. > :13:49.otherwise gone to? I think that was less about law than about
:13:49. > :13:55.prevailing social attitudes. these social attitudes are still
:13:55. > :14:00.there, among many Conservative MPs. This is many years later? Among
:14:00. > :14:05.some. Over 140 voted against? an indication of the way in which
:14:05. > :14:11.things move is that many Conservative MPs who voted against
:14:11. > :14:16.the introduction of civil partnerships in 2004, now support
:14:16. > :14:22.civil partnerships. So sometimes parts of the Conservative Party
:14:22. > :14:26.move, but they move more slowly, or a few paces behind prevailing
:14:26. > :14:30.social attitudes, or the centre of gravity of social attitudes. Which
:14:30. > :14:36.have changed, and will probably continue to change in ways that it
:14:36. > :14:42.is hard to predict. But we get there. Maybe at different speeds.
:14:42. > :14:47.It would be presumtious of me to assert that, but it may well be
:14:47. > :14:51.that some of those who voted against equal marriage tonight will,
:14:52. > :14:55.in yours to come, change their view, I don't know. Social attitudes have
:14:55. > :15:00.changed, people's views change on some of these issues, and they
:15:00. > :15:06.change at different times, and some people's views will never change.
:15:06. > :15:10.That's fine too. These are issues of conscience, and people exercise
:15:10. > :15:15.their judgment in the way that they think right. I wouldn't criticise
:15:15. > :15:20.people for that. But it has been characterised, you have your George
:15:20. > :15:24.Osborne and William Hague and Theresa May extoling the vote.
:15:24. > :15:31.Obviously you had David Cameron championing it, I wonder the jeer
:15:31. > :15:35.that this is really the Notting Hill set, and there are two Tory
:15:35. > :15:40.Partys, and they are so far behind you? It is nonsense and doesn't
:15:40. > :15:45.reflect any reality I see and live with in my daily life. What is your
:15:45. > :15:50.reaction to the fact that it is a Conservative Government, who has
:15:50. > :15:56.managed, or will have managed, to have made sure that same-sex
:15:56. > :16:03.marriage, in Britain, is common place? I think it is a good thing
:16:03. > :16:07.to have done. I don't think it is massive change. I think public
:16:07. > :16:13.opinion, again it is, what I say about social attitudes, they have
:16:13. > :16:16.moved, they have changed. This will be seen, by most of the public, as
:16:17. > :16:26.a relatively uncontroversial thing, particularly among younger people
:16:26. > :16:31.who say, yeah, so what? That's a healthy thing. I think this will be
:16:31. > :16:36.seen to be something that will look in years to come, as a kind of
:16:36. > :16:39.relatively natural step, which people will not find, will struggle
:16:39. > :16:46.to understand why it was controversial at the time. Thank
:16:46. > :16:52.you very much indeed. From Maastricht in the Netherlands
:16:52. > :16:55.we talk to our guest who got married in 2001 in the world's
:16:55. > :17:00.first same-sex ceremony. Thank you very much for joining us, you
:17:00. > :17:05.married your life partner Ellen, why did you want to get married,
:17:05. > :17:10.rather than stick with your civil partnership? For us, in the
:17:10. > :17:14.Netherlands, marriage is the only legal bond that commits third
:17:14. > :17:19.parties as well. And I want to show everybody this is the person I want
:17:19. > :17:24.to share my life with. But do you accept that some people, for
:17:24. > :17:30.perfectly good reasons, religious reasons, and other reasons, will
:17:30. > :17:34.always be implacably opposed to what you have done and been able to
:17:34. > :17:39.do? I sometimes find that difficult, because I'm not different to anyone
:17:39. > :17:42.else, it is just a human right to choose to take care of someone you
:17:43. > :17:48.love, and to take care of your family, that is what I want.
:17:48. > :17:54.that right to take care of them, and to be a family, is different
:17:54. > :17:58.from saying we can only do that, or only feel able to commit to that
:17:58. > :18:02.properly within, some might say it, the confines of a marriage? It is
:18:02. > :18:06.not that you only can do that, you can take care of one another
:18:06. > :18:11.outside of the marriage, but it just gives you a legal bond, and
:18:11. > :18:15.that's a commitment for life. It is also making it possible that Ellen
:18:15. > :18:19.could adopt the children. For us that was very important. Because
:18:19. > :18:24.that gives her and the children legal rights to one another.
:18:24. > :18:28.course you are, as it were, the birth mother of your two children.
:18:28. > :18:36.What challenges have you faced in the last 12 years, or has it all
:18:36. > :18:41.been plain sailing? No, no, no. I wish it was true. You always have
:18:41. > :18:45.to explain your family situation, not only as adults, but also the
:18:45. > :18:48.children. If they move schools, move house, they have always got to
:18:48. > :18:57.explain in what kind of family they live. That can be difficult,
:18:57. > :19:03.sometimes. But on the other hand, it is the way it is. We live it and
:19:03. > :19:11.live with it. Have people expressed their disapproval to you? Yes,
:19:11. > :19:15.unfortunately they have. What happened? They just tell you that
:19:15. > :19:20.they don't approve of your marriage, they don't recognise the adoption
:19:20. > :19:25.of the children, if they do it to me I discuss it with them. If they
:19:25. > :19:28.do it toe my children, I'm really offended -- it to my children, I'm
:19:29. > :19:33.really offended, they didn't choose to live in our family, they have
:19:33. > :19:37.been born into it. For us, that is the main thing. Sometimes, when it
:19:37. > :19:42.comes close, like family members, that hurts, but otherwise, we're
:19:42. > :19:48.just an ordinary family. It's their problem, not our's. Perhaps you
:19:48. > :19:52.heard, speaking to the minister Francis Maude there, his view was,
:19:52. > :19:58.that in several years it might just be common place, that this will not
:19:58. > :20:03.have been seen to be such a major thing. He was suggesting through
:20:03. > :20:07.the next generation, do you see, in the 12 years since you have been
:20:07. > :20:12.marriage, a general change in attitudes in society in the
:20:12. > :20:15.netherlands? It's getting more common. It is one of the options.
:20:15. > :20:19.Sure, you have to explain, everybody asks you, are you married,
:20:19. > :20:23.and then what is the name of your husband, when you say it is my wife.
:20:23. > :20:28.They say, that is a possibility as well. In that meaning, people
:20:28. > :20:32.change, their attitudes changes. In the next generation, where more
:20:32. > :20:37.countries have opened up marriage, it makes it more common, so, yeah,
:20:37. > :20:41.I think he's right. Can you explain, from your point of view though, how
:20:41. > :20:44.you begin to explain to people how you make it, as it were, less
:20:44. > :20:51.threatening to people, perhaps, who are religious, and feel it is
:20:51. > :20:57.actually an attack on their religion? I'm not attacking their
:20:57. > :21:01.religion, it is their religion, it is not mine. That's first and for
:21:01. > :21:06.all. As I see it, I always learned from my parents that God is love.
:21:06. > :21:12.That's the only thing I do, I love my partner, and I love my children.
:21:12. > :21:16.What's wrong with that. You are also religious? Yes, we are.
:21:16. > :21:21.You are religious, and within your church, has there been an
:21:21. > :21:25.acceptance that you didn't expect, or has there not been an acceptance,
:21:26. > :21:32.how has it operated within your church? They are fine with it. It
:21:32. > :21:38.is not a problem at all. It is not an issue. Although for us it is not
:21:38. > :21:42.possible to get married in church, at the moment. It is not an issue
:21:42. > :21:50.that we are lesbians and having kids and we have a legal marriage.
:21:50. > :21:56.Thank you very much indeed. Still to come, Marine Le Pen tells
:21:57. > :22:00.us David Cameron has it right on Europe, and...Cancer Is a word that
:22:00. > :22:04.people are still reluctant to use, and I thought the more public it
:22:05. > :22:14.got the better. The cryptic crossword that left solvers lost
:22:15. > :22:20.
:22:20. > :22:24.for words. Two days ago state-owned bank RBS was warned by the
:22:24. > :22:28.Chancellor that their payment for their part in the LIBOR scandal
:22:28. > :22:32.must come from bonuses from investment staff. That fine could
:22:32. > :22:37.be expected as �400 million, who will take responsibility at the
:22:37. > :22:40.bank, are heads going to role? Will heads role? A deputy head will
:22:40. > :22:45.role. The head of the investment banking, he will leave the bank, it
:22:45. > :22:51.will be confirmed tomorrow. He's also going to be denied his bonus
:22:51. > :22:55.for 2012 he will be striped of the built-up bonuses of the three years
:22:55. > :23:01.worth before, which is �4 million. It is a kind of punishment. It
:23:01. > :23:06.seems to be a sacrificial offering to many. He wasn't directly or
:23:06. > :23:12.indirectly linked to the LIBOR- fixing traders. It appears they
:23:12. > :23:16.picked an abitary point. He wasn't linked to them at all? Yes, but why
:23:16. > :23:20.should he go, why should the deputy chief executive go, not the chief
:23:20. > :23:25.executive, Steven Hester, why shouldn't the chairman Government
:23:25. > :23:29.they have decided to pick one individual. Peter Neilson, head of
:23:29. > :23:34.markets, he's staying, he was rumoured to go. One guy is going.
:23:34. > :23:40.At the heart is all about LIBOR and the rate-fixing scandal. Traders
:23:41. > :23:48.six or seven pay grades beneath him decided to make money by fixes the
:23:48. > :23:53.rate, the fines will be astronomical, Barclays �2. 9
:23:53. > :24:00.billion, and a �400 billion for Barclays, three-quarters of which
:24:00. > :24:04.will go to the other side of the lafrpbtic. After PPI, outlandish
:24:04. > :24:11.bonuses and investments that caused the financial crisis, LIBOR seemed
:24:11. > :24:16.to top them all. Colluding to set the rate of interest which sets how
:24:16. > :24:21.much people for for homes, brought the banks to an all-time low, LIBOR
:24:21. > :24:24.is a key interest rate used all over the world, and it can affect
:24:25. > :24:29.major investments, derivatives and/or mortgages. Here is how it is
:24:29. > :24:36.set. A poofl banks, based in London, tell the British bankers
:24:36. > :24:39.association, how much they have made to pour row -- British
:24:39. > :24:42.Bankers' Association, how much they have paid to borrow money from
:24:42. > :24:47.other banks. They strip out the highest and lowest numbers and
:24:47. > :24:50.reach an average figure for that day, which is published. The
:24:50. > :24:53.scandal developed when it emerged that some banks tried to move the
:24:54. > :24:59.LIBOR bank up or down to make a profit. Traders would call up
:24:59. > :25:03.colleagues, who submit the rates to the BBA, and urge them to submit an
:25:03. > :25:07.inaccurate rate on behalf of the bank, in order to skew the average
:25:07. > :25:14.figure in the preferred direction. So, if you shave one tenth of one
:25:14. > :25:18.per cent off the interest rate on a �1 billion bond, it could be worth
:25:18. > :25:23.�1 million to someone. That was unearthed by British and American
:25:23. > :25:29.regulators last summer, initially at Barclays, and subsequently at
:25:29. > :25:34.UBS, now the taxpayer-controlled RBS. It will show others banks were
:25:34. > :25:38.at it for the period of 2005-2010. Because we have no clear evidence
:25:38. > :25:43.of what the LIBOR rate would have been without the manipulation, the
:25:43. > :25:49.fines being imposed by regulators are for willful abuse of the system,
:25:49. > :25:51.rather than a specific amount earned as a result of it. Now RBS's
:25:51. > :25:55.investment banking boss will be the sacrificial offering, even though
:25:55. > :25:59.he had no direct or indirect knowledge of the rate-rigging by
:25:59. > :26:03.traders working under him. There is definite pressure, we know there is
:26:03. > :26:07.pressure from the regulator, probably from the Government
:26:07. > :26:12.directly that, with RBS, they want to see scalps, and various people
:26:12. > :26:19.fired. What I think is interesting is that the fine is being paid by
:26:19. > :26:23.the entire bonus pool of RBS staff. 95% of them did not indulge in
:26:23. > :26:27.manipulating LIBOR, and yet they are paying for the pain. I firmly
:26:27. > :26:33.believe culture is set from the top of an organisation, and if you set
:26:33. > :26:36.the culture that encourages wrongdoing, you need to leave. But
:26:36. > :26:46.I also think the individuals need to be held accountability.
:26:46. > :26:51.
:26:51. > :26:54.fines for LIBOR abuse are set to be Most of the fines will go to
:26:54. > :26:59.American regulator. That prompted the Chancellor to
:26:59. > :27:04.intervene and say that fines had to be paid from RBS's bonus pool, as
:27:04. > :27:09.well as clawbacks from previously paid bonus. We all know there are
:27:09. > :27:15.LIBOR investigations on going into RB in both the UK and the US. Any
:27:15. > :27:20.UK fine will benefit the public. When it comes to RBS I amer a clear
:27:20. > :27:22.that the bill for any -- I am clear that the bill for any US fine,
:27:22. > :27:27.related to this investigation, should be paid for by the bankers
:27:27. > :27:32.and not the taxpayer. That is in marked contrast to 2011, when Mr
:27:32. > :27:37.Osbourne said that RBS would be run on a hands-off, commercial basis.
:27:37. > :27:40.When it comes to the banks where we have a shareholding in, like the
:27:40. > :27:43.Royal Bank of Scotland, look, we have run these at arm's length,
:27:43. > :27:48.that is what the last Labour Government did when they set up the
:27:48. > :27:52.arrangements, and put all the tax- payers' money in. As for RBS, it is
:27:52. > :27:56.two-thirds the way to break-even point, its shares are 50% higher
:27:56. > :28:02.than six months ago, and it is a leaner bank than before. It is on
:28:02. > :28:07.the critical list, and removing key executives may hinder rather than
:28:07. > :28:10.help the recovery. Britain is set to introduce draconian new rules
:28:10. > :28:13.for bankers who done wrong in the City of London, which could affect
:28:13. > :28:19.other financial hubs around the world. There is a danger you could
:28:19. > :28:22.throw the baby out with the bath wart e tell that to families who
:28:22. > :28:27.are potentially paying for more their mortgage today than they
:28:27. > :28:31.would do had the bankers not manipulated the LIBOR rate some
:28:31. > :28:36.years ago. The name Le Pen is synonymous with
:28:36. > :28:40.the leadership of the far right in France. Marine Le Pen took over two
:28:40. > :28:45.years ago from her father, Jean- Marie, who led the party since its
:28:45. > :28:50.form yaiing. In last month's presidential election she secured
:28:50. > :28:53.6.1 million voters, one in five of the population. I spoke to her at
:28:53. > :28:57.the European Parliament in Strasbourg earlier today. Marine Le
:28:57. > :29:02.Pen is the face of French Euro- scepticism. I asked her if she
:29:02. > :29:08.supported David Cameron's atept to renegotiation the member -- attempt
:29:08. > :29:11.to renegotiation the relationship between member states. TRANSLATION:
:29:11. > :29:14.For several years we have seen the affect of the EU on the economy, I
:29:14. > :29:19.have demanded a renegotiation of a certain number of treaties,
:29:19. > :29:22.including, of course, Schengen, in order to control immigration. Also
:29:22. > :29:25.treaties that prevent France from protecting a certain number of its
:29:25. > :29:28.economic sectors. As a result I understand Mr Cameron, in his
:29:28. > :29:31.desire for renegotiation, even if the consequences of that
:29:31. > :29:35.renegotiation wouldn't be the same for Mr Cameron's Government, and
:29:35. > :29:39.the Government that I would eventually lead.
:29:39. > :29:44.Last month David Cameron offered the UK the prospect of an in-out
:29:44. > :29:51.referendum on membership of the EU. So, is it something Le Pen and her
:29:51. > :29:55.party covet for France? TRANSLATION: I want to do the same
:29:55. > :29:58.thing as Great Britain, if I came to power tomorrow, I would decide
:29:58. > :30:02.to organise a referendum within 12 month. I would give myself 12
:30:02. > :30:05.months to negotiate the most important points with the European
:30:05. > :30:08.Union. At the end of that 12-month negotiation period, I would ask the
:30:08. > :30:12.French people to have their say, on the points that we manage to
:30:12. > :30:17.renegotiate, and on the points that the European Union refuse to
:30:17. > :30:22.negotiate. Yet, Le Pen herself is an MEP, her party doesn't sit in
:30:22. > :30:25.the same group as the Tories in Brussels, but she believes they
:30:26. > :30:31.have been influenced by a mounting Euro-scepticism here, in the form
:30:31. > :30:34.of Nigel Farage's UKIP. TRANSLATION: But Mr Cameron still
:30:34. > :30:38.believes in the European Union. I'm not ignorant of the reasons that
:30:38. > :30:42.have forced him to call for a referendum. It is quite clearly
:30:42. > :30:45.because he's under pressure from British euro-sceptics, who, we must
:30:45. > :30:51.admit, are very close to our own position on the functions of the
:30:51. > :30:54.European Union. I'm thinking, of course, of UKIP, who have developed
:30:54. > :30:59.the same, firm Euro-scepticism towards the European Union and its
:30:59. > :31:02.structures, that we ourselves defend. It is under pressure from
:31:02. > :31:06.eurorealist, such as us, UKIP in Britain, the Front National in
:31:06. > :31:11.France, the FBO in Austria, that we have managed to move the goal posts.
:31:11. > :31:13.For that, of course, I congratulate myself. I'm completely convinced
:31:13. > :31:17.that Mr Cameron would not have taken this decision, if the British
:31:17. > :31:22.people had not turned in such a significant manner towards euro-
:31:22. > :31:26.sceptic movements. The issue of immigration played a
:31:26. > :31:30.prominent role in last year's election, during a campaign which
:31:30. > :31:34.questioned the nature of French national identity. The Front
:31:34. > :31:41.National campaign for legal migration into France, to be set at
:31:41. > :31:44.10,000 people a year. TRANSLATION: Listen, I think we need to
:31:44. > :31:46.profoundly change the rules around French nationality. Because the
:31:46. > :31:51.problem with France is it automatically manufactures French
:31:51. > :31:54.people, with all the well- documented problems of integration
:31:54. > :31:58.that creates. For those foreigners legally in France, it is obvious,
:31:58. > :32:01.either there is work, and at that point they work entirelyly normally,
:32:01. > :32:06.they benefit from the social security that is associated with
:32:06. > :32:10.their job, or, they are unemployed, and after a certain period of time
:32:10. > :32:14.in unemployment, well we ask them to go back to their country of
:32:14. > :32:18.origin. We can't meet the needs of extra unemployed people at the very
:32:18. > :32:22.same time we have officially five million unemployed people in France,
:32:22. > :32:30.and in reality, a further nine million people who aren't work as
:32:30. > :32:35.much as they would like. I asked Marine Le Pen about the
:32:35. > :32:38.party's advocacy of a system of French-first for jobs, and some
:32:38. > :32:44.social services, such as accommodation? TRANSLATION: Yes,
:32:44. > :32:48.yes, we have defended for a long time now the idea of national
:32:49. > :32:52.preference, or national priority, as reverential access, not only to
:32:52. > :32:56.jobs, but also to social housing. Charity begins at home, the
:32:56. > :33:00.responsibility of the leaders of a country is first and foremost to
:33:00. > :33:04.allow their own people to be able to work. To look after their
:33:04. > :33:09.families and build up an estate. But, essentially, in France, would
:33:09. > :33:15.you not be creating, as it were, second-class citizens, and is that
:33:15. > :33:19.not of itself a rather dangerous idea? TRANSLATION: I completely
:33:19. > :33:25.disagree with you. In every international treaty, it is
:33:25. > :33:31.accepted that you can reserve preferential access for naturals in
:33:31. > :33:38.their own country. When all else is equal, a French person will have
:33:38. > :33:43.priority in a job f there is no-one of equal competence, a foreigner
:33:43. > :33:49.can apply for that job. The presence of French troops in
:33:50. > :33:53.Mali has revived the French. Mr Hollande has declared they will
:33:53. > :33:58.remain as long as necessary does she support their involvement
:33:58. > :34:02.there? TRANSLATION: We have a common history with Mali, we are
:34:02. > :34:07.historical allies, we co-operate on defence, and so stfs only natural
:34:07. > :34:10.that we responded -- it was only natural that we responded to the
:34:10. > :34:15.Mali Government's call. That shouldn't hide the fact that we got
:34:15. > :34:19.involved in Libya, not to advance the cause of democracy but Islamic
:34:19. > :34:22.fundamentalism. I was the only one, for years, who denounced this
:34:22. > :34:26.intervention in Libya, who denounced the fact that the Libyan
:34:26. > :34:29.rebels, just like their counterparts in Syria, are in
:34:29. > :34:36.reality corrupted, and at the behest of Islamic fundamentalists,
:34:36. > :34:39.and their seizure of power, notably in Libya, where they immediately
:34:39. > :34:43.imposed Sharia Law, would destablise the entire region, that
:34:43. > :34:46.is what is happening in Mali today. The Mali operation follows France's
:34:46. > :34:51.role, alongside the UK, in supporting the ref lug, which
:34:51. > :34:56.overthrew the Gaddafi regime in Libya. But, for a party that
:34:56. > :35:01.campaigns on anti-immigration, the upheaval caused by the Arab Spring
:35:01. > :35:05.was unwelcome. Would she have preferred Gaddafi to have remained
:35:05. > :35:09.in power? TRANSLATION: It would probably have been more effective,
:35:09. > :35:13.whilst using diplomatic means of putting pressure on Mr Gaddafi to
:35:13. > :35:20.introduce a not insignificant dose of democracy to his country, to
:35:20. > :35:25.leave Mr Gaddafi in place. You must remember that has deplorable and
:35:25. > :35:32.reprehensible a character Mr Gaddafi may have been in Libya,
:35:32. > :35:35.like Mr Assad in Syria, these men fought against the rise of Islamic
:35:35. > :35:42.fundamentalism, they contained it. So I asked her does that
:35:42. > :35:47.endorsement of the status quo extend to the Assad regime?
:35:47. > :35:50.TRANSLATION: I think that diplomacy, and notably Russian diplomacy has
:35:50. > :35:55.made progress, that might allow an exit from the Syrian conflict. What
:35:55. > :35:58.would be, on the other hand, utterly catastrophic, would be to
:35:58. > :36:01.help Islamic fundamentalists to brutally overthrow the Government
:36:01. > :36:06.of Bashar al-Assad. Because, once again, if they take control of
:36:06. > :36:09.Syria, they too will immediately impose sariia law, and persecute
:36:09. > :36:13.minorities who are part of the Syrian population. We can't just do
:36:13. > :36:16.whatever we want in these countries, and breaking off relations with
:36:16. > :36:20.Bashar al-Assad is senseless. On the other hand, guiding democratic
:36:20. > :36:29.change in the country would be much more effective, much more
:36:29. > :36:33.successful, and much less dangerous than what we are currently doing.
:36:33. > :36:38.Before the end of the programme, we will have tomorrow's front page.
:36:38. > :36:43.But first, paintings, books and plays, often contain clue as to the
:36:43. > :36:47.artist or writer's state. What about a crossword? A master of the
:36:47. > :36:53.art of the cryptic crossword, the Guardian's Araucaria, had something
:36:53. > :37:03.very important to tell his legions of fan. So he put it where he had
:37:03. > :37:05.
:37:05. > :37:09.might his life's work, in a crossword puzzle.
:37:09. > :37:15.Ten across, Chile pine by a river has Roman database for a song, nine
:37:15. > :37:19.letters. Araucaria.
:37:19. > :37:24.To try to describe one of his puzzles, it is the wit, there is
:37:24. > :37:30.almost always a clue or a couple of clues that will make you laugh.
:37:30. > :37:34.Just with the sheer elegance of it, or the sheer wit of it. They can be
:37:35. > :37:38.witty and make you laugh. People who don't do crosswords think is
:37:38. > :37:44.most peculiar, the clue will make you laugh with delight, and
:37:44. > :37:50.Araucaria is the master of that. If your form with a crossword
:37:50. > :37:59.puzzle is a bit checkered, you may have fallen foul of the genius
:37:59. > :38:03.Araucaria, the botanical name for the monkey puzzle tree, is the nome
:38:03. > :38:11.de clu of the former vicar setting crosswords in national papers for
:38:11. > :38:15.50 years. He sees clues everywhere, is it an affliction? It would be an
:38:15. > :38:20.exaggeration to call it an affliction. It is there. You can be
:38:20. > :38:27.reading a poem, and suddenly it would occur to you that those two
:38:27. > :38:33.words together make an anagram, and then you are not appreciating the
:38:33. > :38:40.poem because you are side tracked, that happens a lot, certainly.
:38:40. > :38:47.One across, "periodical for crosswords and powder", eight
:38:47. > :38:52.letters, "magazine". # Come see the privates on parade
:38:52. > :38:57.# You'll say how proudly they're displayed
:38:57. > :39:01.Simon Russell Beale, knocking them dead in the West End in Privates on
:39:01. > :39:09.Parade, finds Araucaria's crosswords a nice change after all
:39:09. > :39:14.that cross-dressing. The company I'm in at the moment,
:39:14. > :39:17.there are four of us who regularly, through the evening, pop into this
:39:17. > :39:23.dress dressing room. When you say, through the evening, not while the
:39:23. > :39:30.show is going on? Oh yeah. Really? If there are gaps, you know. If you
:39:30. > :39:33.have five minutes, come in here and do a clue. There is a direct
:39:33. > :39:39.connection between a fan and Araucaria. I think a lot of his
:39:39. > :39:44.solvers think they know what type of man he is. I have an absolutely
:39:44. > :39:48.clear picture of the type of sense of humour he has. It is a one-way
:39:48. > :39:54.process, because I don't get to know my solvers, but they get to
:39:54. > :39:58.know me. And I don't understand quite how it works, but they do.
:39:58. > :40:04.Obviously because I have been doing it for a long time, and you build
:40:04. > :40:07.up a sort of relationship, it is an odd one.
:40:07. > :40:15.That relationship changed dramatically after Araucaria
:40:15. > :40:25.published a crossword with this master clue.
:40:25. > :40:25.
:40:25. > :40:32."Araucaria has 18 down of the 19 across, treated with 13, 15".
:40:32. > :40:35."cancer, oesophagus, palliative care". I started it and I got
:40:35. > :40:41.cancer and oesophagus, and palliative care, and then, to be
:40:41. > :40:47.honest, I didn't want to continue it. I didn't, I thought it was an
:40:47. > :40:52.amazing thing to do. But I didn't feel comfortable continuing it
:40:52. > :41:02.really. Many others were touched too.
:41:02. > :41:19.
:41:19. > :41:25.Cancer a word that people are still reluctant to use, I thought the
:41:25. > :41:29.more public the better. So it worked. But I don't expect the
:41:29. > :41:33.results to stop, it has been incredible. People have written and
:41:33. > :41:41.send me cards and letters, and e- mails. I didn't expect anything
:41:41. > :41:47.like that. What sort of things did they say to you? Different things.
:41:47. > :41:51.Nobody said I deserved it! They actually seemed, because at some
:41:51. > :41:58.point they phrased it so that it said that I was dying of cancer,
:41:58. > :42:01.which I'm not really. I mean I have Cannes, but it does not mean to say
:42:01. > :42:05.you have plenty of time to die of something else. There is no knowing
:42:05. > :42:10.how long it will take. But some people got rather upset by this,
:42:10. > :42:20.and say we can't live without you, sort of thing. People say the most
:42:20. > :42:21.
:42:21. > :42:30.lovely things. I'm sorry. It has brought tears to my eyes thinking
:42:30. > :42:35.about it now. What do you think of the theatricality, if you will, of
:42:35. > :42:39.announcing your illness, in this case, through the clues of a
:42:39. > :42:49.crossword puzzle? That has a certain drama, does it? Yeah, good
:42:49. > :42:51.
:42:51. > :43:01.for him. It has panache, and it is and has a self-mockery too about it,
:43:01. > :43:02.
:43:02. > :43:12.I think. It is not making light of it, exactly, it is just appropriate,
:43:12. > :43:12.
:43:12. > :43:18.you know. It is done with love and wit, it is done for his, what do we
:43:18. > :43:26.call ourselves? Solvers? It is done for his solvers. I think he did it
:43:26. > :43:32.with great elan. Contemplating the end of things, a
:43:32. > :43:39.lot of us, crossword buffs and others, tend to draw a blank. Not
:43:39. > :43:42.so the Reverend John Galbraith Graham. We are quite ridiculous, it
:43:42. > :43:52.is absurd that we are trying to drag it on the way we do. We waste
:43:52. > :43:58.an awful lot of time and money and anxiety giving people a hope for
:43:58. > :44:02.letting go. I don't know how the church got itself into that idea,
:44:02. > :44:09.years ago people thought heaven was more important than earth. I think
:44:09. > :44:13.so. You think so. How do you see the afterlife? I think it is utopia.
:44:13. > :44:19.Are there crosswords there? I have had this, it is a very interesting
:44:19. > :44:22.question, I don't see how there can be, I'm sure, if I do, yes I do see
:44:22. > :44:32.it, because it all transcends anything we can think about. No
:44:32. > :44:35.
:44:35. > :44:39.doubt they will find some way of doing it.
:44:39. > :44:43.Steve Smith and Araucaria has kindly composed a crossword
:44:43. > :44:46.especially for Newsnight viewers, you will find it on-line on the
:44:46. > :44:56.website. Tomorrow morning's front pages now.
:44:56. > :45:03.
:45:03. > :45:13.They all go with the gay marriage Chris Huhne's ex-wife there on the
:45:13. > :45:41.
:45:41. > :45:48.paper, apparently wanted to nail That's all from Newsnight tonight,
:45:48. > :45:54.the Womanables first hit TV screens 40 years ago, today, surprisingly
:45:54. > :46:04.they weren't strangled at birth. We leave you with a brief visit to
:46:04. > :46:06.
:46:06. > :46:16.Wimbledon Common. Womanables theme tune)
:46:16. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:19.-- Wombles theme tune. # The Wombles of Wimbledon are we
:46:20. > :46:29.# Making good use of the things we find
:46:30. > :46:30.
:46:30. > :46:34.# Things that the every day folks leave behind. No end yet to the
:46:34. > :46:38.current cold spell. Tomorrow an Arctic wind to contend with, that
:46:38. > :46:41.will make it feel bitter. Plenty of cloud to start the day. Across the
:46:41. > :46:44.north of England, showers, sleet and hill snow. Further south
:46:44. > :46:49.overnight wet weather clearing away from the south-east. Brightening up
:46:49. > :46:53.for a time in the morning. Windy across the south-east and East
:46:53. > :46:56.Anglia. Strong wind across western areas easing during the day. At
:46:56. > :47:02.this stage blowing showers across south-west England. Some
:47:02. > :47:04.winteryness on the high ground. Elsewhere we will see sunshine.
:47:04. > :47:09.Sunshine to come eventually in Northern Ireland, there will be
:47:09. > :47:12.some brightness around first thing. Still a few showers to contend with.
:47:12. > :47:15.Icey patches possible here for northern England and across
:47:15. > :47:19.Scotland. For northern Scotland snow showers here will begin to
:47:19. > :47:24.accumulate to lower level, as will the wintery showers running down
:47:24. > :47:27.eastern coastal parts of England during the day. The snow for north
:47:28. > :47:34.York moors, mainly rain, sleet and hail. Increasing sunshine. It will
:47:34. > :47:37.feel bitter in the Arctic wind, much colder than those temperatures