0:00:01 > 0:00:04Oops. That was an enor, I have acknowledged, for a variety of
0:00:04 > 0:00:08reasons, that we shouldn't have embarked on that course, at this
0:00:08 > 0:00:12stage. Michael Gove blots his copy book.
0:00:12 > 0:00:21We will debate whether his remaining reforms are too much or
0:00:21 > 0:00:28not enough. Also tonight: Rock star style, banker's Sally.
0:00:28 > 0:00:38Mark Carney steps into the bear pit. We're in Brussels with Mark Urban.
0:00:38 > 0:00:39
0:00:39 > 0:00:43The number so huge, it has only just been discovered.
0:00:43 > 0:00:49There is a list of words issued by Michael Gove's department that ten-
0:00:49 > 0:00:56year-olds are supposed to know. Among the words, "awkward ",
0:00:56 > 0:01:00"disastrous", "nuisance", "amateur". Would a ten-year-old have spotted
0:01:00 > 0:01:08the flaws for an English Baccalaureate, he had plenty of
0:01:08 > 0:01:11warnings from grown-ups. But his admission today has thawed things
0:01:11 > 0:01:18between him and his department. The question is what is left of the
0:01:18 > 0:01:22Gove reforms, and what would a gof- educated child be like.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Gove is a man -- Michael Gove is man with a vision, today he offered
0:01:25 > 0:01:30a glimpse into the future, his version of a proper education
0:01:30 > 0:01:34system. In English, there is more clarity on spelling, punctuation
0:01:34 > 0:01:39and grammar. There is a stronger emphasis on arithmetic, and more
0:01:39 > 0:01:43demanding in content in fractions, decimals and percentages. In
0:01:43 > 0:01:48foreign languages, there will be a new stress on learning proper
0:01:48 > 0:01:51grammatical structures and practising translation. In
0:01:51 > 0:01:55geography there is an emphasis on vocational knowledge. In art and
0:01:55 > 0:02:01design, there is a stronger emphasis on painting and drawing
0:02:01 > 0:02:06skills. In music, a balance between performance and appreciation.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11Mr Gove came to parliament to set out this new curriculum. And to say
0:02:11 > 0:02:15he had dropped one controversial policy, there will be no English
0:02:15 > 0:02:19Baccalaureate Certificate. The brand-new qualification he had
0:02:19 > 0:02:22planned for 16-year-olds. Every minister makes mistake, when I make
0:02:22 > 0:02:27mistakes over building schools for the future, I was happy to come to
0:02:27 > 0:02:30the House and acknowledge I had made an error. When I make mistakes
0:02:30 > 0:02:35in other places I'm happy to acknowledge my error. The very
0:02:35 > 0:02:39first thing I said to is I have embarked on one reform too far, in
0:02:39 > 0:02:46seeking to move towards single exam boards. I'm happy to acknowledge
0:02:46 > 0:02:50today that was an error. Under this Government the words "GCSE" and
0:02:50 > 0:02:53"fiasco", seemed to be linked indelibly. This is a humiliating
0:02:53 > 0:02:57climb-down. The problem with the Secretary of State is he thinks he
0:02:57 > 0:03:02knows the answer to everything. So he digs out the fag packet and
0:03:02 > 0:03:08comes up with his latest wheeze. Much has been made of Michael
0:03:08 > 0:03:13Gove's U-turn today. But while the GCSE will stay, it will be
0:03:13 > 0:03:17comprehensively reformed. And, as planned, pupils will have to start
0:03:18 > 0:03:21studying in 2015 for these new tests in key subjects. I asked
0:03:21 > 0:03:26Michael Gove what was the main difference between what he had
0:03:26 > 0:03:29originally intended, and what he announced in the House of Commons.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32The most significant change we have made today, from the proposition
0:03:32 > 0:03:36that we put forward in September, is the decision not to press ahead
0:03:36 > 0:03:42with the single Examination Board in academic subjects. Because, as
0:03:42 > 0:03:45the regulator pointed out, moving so rapidly to change the market in
0:03:45 > 0:03:48exams, alongside improving the content, risked having too many
0:03:48 > 0:03:51moving parts in the system at the same time. So we will do the most
0:03:51 > 0:03:55important thing, the thing where there is the greatest degree of
0:03:55 > 0:03:59consensus, we will improve the exams. Some school leaders are
0:03:59 > 0:04:03worried about the tight timetable. We are disappointed there hasn't
0:04:03 > 0:04:09been more change. The profession has really been in uproar about the
0:04:09 > 0:04:15proposals for the UBC. They haven't been consulted, and the fact that
0:04:15 > 0:04:20the timetable remains the same, and we are looking at a 2015 start,
0:04:20 > 0:04:22doesn't leave teachers with enough time to prepare young people.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24are changes proposed for the national curriculum, what do you
0:04:24 > 0:04:28make of those? The national curriculum is something that keeps
0:04:28 > 0:04:31changing any way. Schools are used to different versions of the
0:04:31 > 0:04:34national curriculum. So whilst it is tight, and we need to have our
0:04:34 > 0:04:42subject specialists really take a close look at the implications,
0:04:42 > 0:04:44because there are some very serious implications. Possibly concerning
0:04:44 > 0:04:47implications in terms of the direction of travel with the
0:04:47 > 0:04:53national curriculum. But at the same time, we have to have some
0:04:53 > 0:04:58confidence in the work of the group that have been widely consulted.
0:04:58 > 0:05:04The other major change outlined today is to league tables. Now they
0:05:04 > 0:05:09rank schools by how many children get five GCSEs at grades A* to C,
0:05:09 > 0:05:13including English and maths. In future they will show how much all
0:05:13 > 0:05:17pupils make between 11-16. Many head teachers complained that the
0:05:17 > 0:05:21current system forces them to focus on students who are at the border
0:05:21 > 0:05:25between grade C and grade D. So giving them little incentive to
0:05:25 > 0:05:32help the student who is are getting an A, but might be able to get an
0:05:32 > 0:05:36A*, and those who are nowhere near a C grade at all.
0:05:36 > 0:05:41Some schools already work hard to ensure that children who struggle
0:05:41 > 0:05:45with literacy or maths, when they start secondary school, do catch up
0:05:45 > 0:05:49quickly. So they can learn along with the rest of their class, but
0:05:49 > 0:05:52others don't. This change in the league tables could have a
0:05:52 > 0:05:59significant impact. I think the changes to the accountability
0:05:59 > 0:06:03system are actually a big part of what is new today. Broadly I think
0:06:03 > 0:06:09it is welcome. They have made a wider range of measures in there,
0:06:09 > 0:06:17they have got rid of the extreme emphasis on the threshold. It is
0:06:17 > 0:06:21good. Michael Gove stepped back from one change today, but there is
0:06:21 > 0:06:31still GCSE reform, a new national curriculum, and new league tables.
0:06:31 > 0:06:36His continuous revolution goes on. Graham Stuart chairs the Commons
0:06:36 > 0:06:42Select Committee, Anthony Seldon and the principal of the school on
0:06:42 > 0:06:45the Isle of Dogs. And Ed Hirsch, a retired professor of education, who
0:06:45 > 0:06:50is often cited in Michael Gove's thinking on the national curriculum.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53Graham, you are quietly pleased, because you think the Education
0:06:53 > 0:06:58Secretary has listened to your criticisms and acts. Is that any
0:06:58 > 0:07:01way to make education policy? what is the point of having an
0:07:01 > 0:07:05Education Committee, taking the hearings and doing the work, if
0:07:05 > 0:07:09ministers don't listen. We saw in the last Government, to make a
0:07:09 > 0:07:14party political point, this sense that you mustn't ever risk being
0:07:14 > 0:07:19seen as changing. It is not humiliation it is about acting. We
0:07:19 > 0:07:25are seeing change in GCSEs, which we agreed need to happen. We are
0:07:25 > 0:07:29seeing a more Hirsch-based, knowledge-based curriculum. We are
0:07:29 > 0:07:31seeing a change to the schools, we are seeing a number and most of the
0:07:31 > 0:07:36insights the Secretary of State had will be put into practice. They
0:07:36 > 0:07:39will be done in a way that will carry much wider support than the
0:07:39 > 0:07:43original proposals. Going forward, this Secretary of State, who is a
0:07:43 > 0:07:47reforming Secretary of State, has the chance of a long-lasting legacy,
0:07:47 > 0:07:51rather than something like the diploma, with Ed Balls brought in,
0:07:51 > 0:07:56didn't listen to anybody, and ended up not being a long-term success.
0:07:56 > 0:08:01Michael Gove says he's a man in a hurry, wasn't the problem with the
0:08:01 > 0:08:03Baccalaureate announcement is he's in too much of a hurry? He put out
0:08:03 > 0:08:07proposelias, without specific proposals it is hard to comment in
0:08:07 > 0:08:11a vacuum. We commented, he listened, put out a report last week, he
0:08:11 > 0:08:14accepted most of the arguments in that report, he has listened to the
0:08:14 > 0:08:18profession as well. He is moving forward, isn't that the way we want
0:08:19 > 0:08:24policy to make. Isn't this the best way to make policy in education?
0:08:24 > 0:08:28I'm constantly surs priced by how many head teachers -- surprised by
0:08:28 > 0:08:32how many head teachers, I don't know if Kelly is one of those, who
0:08:32 > 0:08:37agree with much of what Michael Gove is saying, academies, autonomy
0:08:37 > 0:08:41for schools, and the other to the curriculum, in which he's trying to
0:08:41 > 0:08:45get much more rigour into the curriculum. He thinks exams have
0:08:45 > 0:08:49dumbed down, and he thinks that is actually patronising towards
0:08:49 > 0:08:53disadvantaged children. He wants to see them being able to access top
0:08:53 > 0:08:58universities and top jobs, by having serious exams taught in
0:08:58 > 0:09:04serious ways. But, you can't make changes in politics unless you
0:09:04 > 0:09:07carry people. He has goth gone, as Graham has hinted -- gone, as
0:09:07 > 0:09:11Graham has hinted, too quickly. If you lose touch with the supply
0:09:11 > 0:09:17lines, the people who are willing to back you, you will get nowhere.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19Is there anything about his style? Michael Gove hasn't been used to
0:09:20 > 0:09:25running organisations. Many ministers haven't, which is why
0:09:25 > 0:09:28they often achieve next to nothing as minister. The history of most
0:09:28 > 0:09:33education secretaries is one of extraordinary failure, a lot of
0:09:33 > 0:09:37activity, a lot of fuss and noise, but signifying little or nothing.
0:09:37 > 0:09:41Michael Gove is to be praised, however, for making this U-turn, he
0:09:41 > 0:09:46is listening, he is acknowledging, it is quite a big man to stand up
0:09:46 > 0:09:49in parliament, and say, look I made a mistake. You are a bit of a
0:09:49 > 0:09:53critic of much of what Michael Gove has done. Do you see this, well
0:09:53 > 0:09:59what are we callling it, a U-turn, a tweak, whatever the hell it is,
0:09:59 > 0:10:03do you see it as a precursor to more change? There will be more
0:10:04 > 0:10:07change, and we are used to change in education. I'm glad that Michael
0:10:07 > 0:10:11Gove did eventually listen. It took the Select Committee, who did a
0:10:11 > 0:10:16brilliant ror, to make him change it. Head teachers have been, since
0:10:16 > 0:10:20this first came out, have been telling Michael Gove, he has not
0:10:20 > 0:10:26been listening. 2,000 people signed a petition. I spent 30 hours
0:10:26 > 0:10:29answering a ridiculous consultation. He hasn't listened. He has had to
0:10:29 > 0:10:32now listen to the Select Committee. I'm glad. I would like a bit of
0:10:32 > 0:10:37humility. Where he has gone wrong is not listening to the profession.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41All we want to do is to be involved and listened to, and to be
0:10:41 > 0:10:44respected. But to be saying, I'm sorry, that GCSEs are rubbish and
0:10:44 > 0:10:48they are not worth anything is an insult to all the young people out
0:10:48 > 0:10:52there who are working really hard to get their GCSEs, teach anything
0:10:52 > 0:10:56our skooms has never, ever been so good -- schools has never, ever
0:10:56 > 0:10:59been so good. I would like that to be acknowledged. If Michael Gove
0:10:59 > 0:11:05want things to change he has to bring us with us. At the moment I
0:11:05 > 0:11:11haven't met anybody in the independent sector n Instagramer
0:11:11 > 0:11:21schools, and in academies and primary schools, who would be glad
0:11:21 > 0:11:22
0:11:22 > 0:11:25if the GCSE went. Let's go to Ed Hirsch, people have been saying
0:11:25 > 0:11:30nice things about you, including Michael Gove likes you, do you like
0:11:30 > 0:11:36what he's doing? I'm extremely gratified to be cited by the
0:11:36 > 0:11:42secretary of education, sitting here in charlottesville in my
0:11:43 > 0:11:47retirement, and suddenly find some of my work being used to help
0:11:47 > 0:11:54education in Britain. I hope it is helping, or will help education in
0:11:54 > 0:12:00Britain. What is it about core learning, your central ten knit,
0:12:00 > 0:12:03what is that and how -- tenet, what is that and how does it benefit
0:12:03 > 0:12:07pupils? What instigated my work to start with, was schools were not
0:12:07 > 0:12:12succeeding in narrowing the gap between advantaged and
0:12:12 > 0:12:16disadvantaged children. So, in fact, often students, and the data says
0:12:17 > 0:12:21that the same sort of thing is happening in Britain, is students
0:12:21 > 0:12:25who started behind, end up either just as far behind, or further
0:12:25 > 0:12:29behind, than when they started out in school. So the schools haven't
0:12:29 > 0:12:38been narrowing the achievement gap very well in the United States.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41That of the main impulse behind my attention to content, to the
0:12:41 > 0:12:46specific content of the curriculum. Because it was lack of knowledge,
0:12:46 > 0:12:52in the end, that was holding these disadvantaged children back. And Mr
0:12:52 > 0:12:55Gove in this country, and his new national curriculum focuses on
0:12:55 > 0:12:59spelling, grammar and arithmetic, getting children to identify cities
0:12:59 > 0:13:04and rivers on map, and study the great works of the literary canon,
0:13:04 > 0:13:11that makes you smile, look at you? Yes it does. I have to say, you
0:13:11 > 0:13:19know, I'm quite ignorant of exactly what's going on over in Britain. So
0:13:19 > 0:13:23I'm ready to be informed. But the basic structure of what the schools
0:13:24 > 0:13:29believe and what the schools have been doing seems to me to be very
0:13:29 > 0:13:33similar, in the United States. The ideas behind what we have been
0:13:33 > 0:13:38doing and what you have been doing, I think, and your teacher training
0:13:38 > 0:13:47institutions, the ideas are very similar. Thank you for that. Graham
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Stuart, there is a lot left of the Gore agenda, what shines and what
0:13:51 > 0:13:54doesn't work? What shines and doesn't work. I would say what I
0:13:54 > 0:14:04particularly welcome today is the review of the school accountability.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08
0:14:08 > 0:14:12This issue around the CDC-D borderline, -- borderline the kids
0:14:12 > 0:14:17who are there. What is it that you are struggling with, and keeps you
0:14:17 > 0:14:22awake, at the moment it is five A- Cs in English and maths. Apart from
0:14:22 > 0:14:24Mr Gove. We saw last year with the English GCSE problems just how
0:14:24 > 0:14:28driven the system is by accountability. What we want to see
0:14:28 > 0:14:32is every child, whether they are of low academic ability, or brilliant,
0:14:32 > 0:14:37pushed and the best got out of them. At the moment there is an incentive
0:14:37 > 0:14:42not to do that. That is the goal, does this idea achieve that? Well,
0:14:42 > 0:14:46I think that the ideas of Professor Hirsch are absolutely right. We
0:14:46 > 0:14:51must have a really strong content, but where Michael Gove has got it
0:14:51 > 0:14:56wrong is in failing to recognise that you can have real rigour in
0:14:56 > 0:15:00the arts subjects, in economics and a whole range of subjects that
0:15:00 > 0:15:04employers want, and which turn kids on. But also, you know, it is not
0:15:04 > 0:15:08about thumping kids with this knowledge in a grinding boring way,
0:15:08 > 0:15:12that just turns kids off. We need to have active learning, where the
0:15:12 > 0:15:16kids are actively involved in discovering these insights of
0:15:16 > 0:15:21knowledge, rather than just rope learning, which is such a failure
0:15:21 > 0:15:24of the last Government, which is the incredibly pedestrian exams.
0:15:24 > 0:15:29Why the middle years of the international Baccalaureate is much
0:15:29 > 0:15:33better than the GCSE, is the exams encourage radical ideas here,
0:15:33 > 0:15:37students to think in the exam, rather than memorise. I know, it is
0:15:37 > 0:15:41revolutionary, and dangerous. just want to get a word from you,
0:15:42 > 0:15:46Kelly, what of the remaining Gove agenda, there is still a lot of it.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50What would you still change? What I want is for him to talk to the
0:15:50 > 0:15:52profession. In whatever it is he's doing, it is not necessarily
0:15:52 > 0:15:57accountability, we have never been so accountable. You don't think he
0:15:57 > 0:16:02will listen more now? He doesn't listen at all to us. He has very
0:16:02 > 0:16:06little regard for teachers and head teachers alike, it seems. I'm not
0:16:06 > 0:16:08the only one. I want him to listen to the profession, we are happy to
0:16:08 > 0:16:13work with him. Give us the opportunity, we will work with him
0:16:13 > 0:16:18and help to develop and strengthen GCSEs. What happened with the EBCs
0:16:18 > 0:16:20is we started with the exam, and there was no curriculum, EBCs have
0:16:20 > 0:16:24never existed. You start with getting the curriculum right, and
0:16:24 > 0:16:30then you look at the exam system, and then you look at the
0:16:30 > 0:16:34accountability. You do it properly. She's right, there is an archetypal
0:16:34 > 0:16:38Conservative minister of education that thinks all comprehensive heads
0:16:38 > 0:16:41are left-wing nuts, they don't care about their kids or real learning.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44Frankly we need people like this in the Department of Education,
0:16:44 > 0:16:48alongside Michael Gove, a lot better than some of the advisers,
0:16:48 > 0:16:51and there will be real sense and it will work and carry the country,
0:16:51 > 0:16:55because it will carry the heads and the teachers. These are serious
0:16:55 > 0:17:00people, they are not to be belittled as not interested in
0:17:00 > 0:17:05serious learning. Thank you all very much indeed.
0:17:05 > 0:17:10Still ahead on Newsnight: EU leaders knuckle down to the big
0:17:10 > 0:17:20issues. We will ask the man who found the biggest prime number
0:17:20 > 0:17:30
0:17:30 > 0:17:34The next Governor of the Bank of England will be a Canadian. The
0:17:34 > 0:17:37last time a Canadian had that much influence over all of our lives was
0:17:37 > 0:17:41when Michael Ignatieff was never off the television. Mark Carney
0:17:41 > 0:17:45will lead more than a nice line in transatlantic witticisms to keep
0:17:45 > 0:17:48people happy. There are a bunch of people who want him to be just like
0:17:48 > 0:17:56Mervyn King, and another bunch who are hoping for something completely
0:17:56 > 0:18:03different. Today we got some hints into who he might please.
0:18:03 > 0:18:08He was compared to an Emperor, a Sun King, a saviour and a superhero.
0:18:08 > 0:18:16But today Mark Carney was more like a rock star. Arriving late, and
0:18:16 > 0:18:20hoping to get Britain back in the black.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23Never before has a Central Banker's arrival been more akin to a major
0:18:23 > 0:18:29concert. With MPs on the Treasury Select Committee more like groupies,
0:18:29 > 0:18:33complaining about the ticket price for the gig. Your current pay in
0:18:33 > 0:18:38sterling terms is around, total remuneration is around a third of a
0:18:38 > 0:18:47million pounds, isn't that right? Yes. Your total remuneration will
0:18:47 > 0:18:51be in excess of �800,000? Yes. your new job, correct? Yes.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55That salary was supposedly hagled in a grubby office block in south
0:18:55 > 0:18:58London, or a Treasury safe house. So no-one could get wind that he
0:18:58 > 0:19:01was even being interviewed for a job that will be almost as powerful
0:19:01 > 0:19:07as the Chancellor's. Having got his man, George Osborne's political
0:19:07 > 0:19:11fate is now wedded to the success or failure of the man from Alberta.
0:19:11 > 0:19:20And the bank's Monetary Policy Committee may not play ball with
0:19:20 > 0:19:23its new boss, either. It is hard to see that an MP that may not go
0:19:23 > 0:19:27along with what he wants, that he will be able to transform things
0:19:27 > 0:19:31that quickly. And the press that built him up could suddenly turn on
0:19:31 > 0:19:34him if the economy doesn't pick up. They are wedded together, but this
0:19:34 > 0:19:37really depends on this economy turning round quickly.
0:19:38 > 0:19:43Today, near the palace of Westminster, some MPs wanted to see
0:19:43 > 0:19:48if they were going to get value for money, with a mini-pop quiz on
0:19:48 > 0:19:53Central Banking. What is the capital ratio? How would you
0:19:53 > 0:19:58describe unwinding QE? What's the liquidity requirement?
0:19:58 > 0:20:04liquidity requirement is the need for a bank to have...I Think that's
0:20:04 > 0:20:09all I have on that one. I think you scored pretty well there! And the
0:20:09 > 0:20:12mania was also felt in the markets, check out the Carney curve, as
0:20:12 > 0:20:16sterling spiked up against the US dollar when the Canadian started
0:20:16 > 0:20:20speaking. So, as he was doubtless asked in the Treasury safe house
0:20:20 > 0:20:23last year, what does he intend to do with his new toy, the British
0:20:23 > 0:20:29economy? What, for example, did he feel about the effectiveness of
0:20:29 > 0:20:36quanative easing, now that �375 billion in new money had been
0:20:36 > 0:20:44printed? The work that we have done at the Bank of Canada suggests that
0:20:44 > 0:20:48the returns to QE have declined. Particularly in the United States.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52As the scale of the programme has increased. That is banker talk for
0:20:52 > 0:20:56QE probably can't help the economy much further. Mr Carney also hinted
0:20:56 > 0:20:59that when he becomes governor, he might preannounce that interest
0:20:59 > 0:21:02rates aren't moving anywhere for a set period of time. That helps
0:21:02 > 0:21:08companies and consumers when they are borrowing money. They can plan
0:21:08 > 0:21:11with a fixed repayment in mind for two or three years. There will be
0:21:11 > 0:21:14political problems, savers, for example, and pensioners, will know
0:21:14 > 0:21:18that they have got nothing to gain from this policy, that they are
0:21:18 > 0:21:22very low yields and pensions will stay that way for many years to
0:21:22 > 0:21:26come. At the moment there is hope for them, they might think that the
0:21:26 > 0:21:31monetary poly -- policy will change and help them. Under the new regime
0:21:31 > 0:21:36they might be more likely to complain. The issue of inflation
0:21:36 > 0:21:39targeting, I will let the bank much Canada itself explain the current
0:21:39 > 0:21:43policy both here and over there. Low, stable and predictable
0:21:43 > 0:21:47inflation is the goal. The Government of Canada, and the Bank
0:21:47 > 0:21:51of Canada, have a joint agreement to aim for an annual inflation rate
0:21:51 > 0:21:55of 2%. Mr Carney said that while he was still a fan of the current way
0:21:55 > 0:21:59interest rates are set, there might be room for some more plexability,
0:22:00 > 0:22:04and he's far from con-- flexibility, and he's far from convinced that
0:22:04 > 0:22:08using other targets, including nominal GDP would work over here.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12Never in the history of Central Banking has so much faith been
0:22:12 > 0:22:18invested in someone paid so much, to achieve an economic miracle in
0:22:18 > 0:22:21such a short time frame. If rock star Carney performs to his
0:22:21 > 0:22:27potential, there will be doubtless screaming out for more in five
0:22:27 > 0:22:33years. Underperform and his escape philosophy will break all records.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37Philipp Hildebrand of chairman of the Swiss national bank, he's now
0:22:37 > 0:22:41vice-chairman of the investment company, Black Rock, and best of
0:22:41 > 0:22:44all, he knows Mark Carney. What's he like? He is a passionate man and
0:22:44 > 0:22:47cares deeply about what he does and does it with a great amount of
0:22:48 > 0:22:52engovernment as the British people saw this morning, he's highly
0:22:52 > 0:22:55competent for this very complex job that that's awaiting him. I want to
0:22:55 > 0:22:58come on to quite what he said and maybe what it meant. But you know
0:22:58 > 0:23:03him personally and privately what should we know about had him, what
0:23:03 > 0:23:09does he do behind the scenes, he runs doesn't he? This is man who
0:23:09 > 0:23:16run at 6.00am at minus 25 degrees in Ottawa. That should give some
0:23:16 > 0:23:21reassurance to the British people. Of what? Of stamina. I can tell you
0:23:21 > 0:23:24stamina is a very important part of the job description or what is
0:23:24 > 0:23:29required to do this job. This would be the moment, if he has intimated
0:23:29 > 0:23:33to you privately what his big plan is, this would be the moment to
0:23:33 > 0:23:36tell us? If he had you can be sure he would have had plenty of
0:23:36 > 0:23:39opportunity to tell the British people and the British public this
0:23:39 > 0:23:42morning. That is the thing, we are having to try to read between the
0:23:42 > 0:23:45lines. Maybe it is inevitable he wasn't going to spill the beans
0:23:45 > 0:23:51today. There is several months before he takes over. What did you
0:23:51 > 0:23:54take from what he did say? I think what I actually attended to and
0:23:54 > 0:23:59listened in preparation for this evening, I take away three things,
0:23:59 > 0:24:06really. Number one, clearly he is highly qualified, as you could all
0:24:06 > 0:24:10see. And secondly, very importantly, he cares passionately about price
0:24:10 > 0:24:14stability, for example inflation being low, below 2% in line with
0:24:14 > 0:24:19the mandate here. Thirdly, as he indicated, there are a number of
0:24:19 > 0:24:23ways to get to that low inflation rate, and I think he will explore
0:24:23 > 0:24:29the one that brings the best result on the economy and helps the most
0:24:29 > 0:24:32to get this economy back on track. He's clearly prepared, ready and
0:24:32 > 0:24:37courageous enough to explore these various opportunities. Is he a
0:24:37 > 0:24:41consensus kind of guy, you talked a lot about -- he talked a lot about
0:24:41 > 0:24:46consensus today? I have worked with the governor for ten years as a
0:24:46 > 0:24:49public servant in various committees and committee settings,
0:24:49 > 0:24:55he is somebody, he's a leader, I think that's important to know for
0:24:55 > 0:25:00those who will work with him, he's a loader who will build consensus
0:25:00 > 0:25:03and then move forward. Will he stand up to politicians if George
0:25:03 > 0:25:07Osborne, or some other Chancellor says things he doesn't like. Will
0:25:07 > 0:25:10he tell the Chancellor to get lost? It is important to remember this is
0:25:10 > 0:25:14a man who has had a lot of experience in the public sector, he
0:25:14 > 0:25:18has been in the finance ministry, he has now been governor for a
0:25:18 > 0:25:22number of years. He is used to the tension that can arise between
0:25:22 > 0:25:26Governments and central banks, and I have no doubt that when
0:25:26 > 0:25:30appropriate, he will stand up. But at the same time he will do this in
0:25:30 > 0:25:34a pragmatic way, and not make a fetish out of being independent,
0:25:34 > 0:25:38just for the sake of being independent. He will be one of the
0:25:38 > 0:25:43most powerful unelected people in the UK, Central Bankers tend to be
0:25:43 > 0:25:46pretty powerful, don't they, do you think they are too powerful? Did
0:25:46 > 0:25:49you think that when you were running the bank? First of all, it
0:25:49 > 0:25:52is important to remember that he has a committee. He will have a
0:25:52 > 0:25:55committee at the Bank of England, so this is not a, he can't take
0:25:55 > 0:25:59personal decisions, so he will have to work with the committee. That is
0:26:00 > 0:26:03the way it is designed for good reasons. And secondly, I think, it
0:26:03 > 0:26:08is in the nature of Central Banking, that particularly at times of
0:26:08 > 0:26:10crisis, the Central Bank tends to be the final backstop for a lot of
0:26:11 > 0:26:14difficult decision. That is when people realise, typically, that
0:26:15 > 0:26:20there is a lot of power in there. But I have always thought of it,
0:26:20 > 0:26:24not so much as power, but rather that is the ability and having the
0:26:24 > 0:26:29tools to make a difference in very difficult times. Mark Carney says
0:26:29 > 0:26:33the role of monetary policy is to make sure economic growth rates
0:26:33 > 0:26:38reach escape velocity, what does that mean? This economy has now
0:26:38 > 0:26:42essentially had no growth for the last two years. So the exit out of
0:26:42 > 0:26:46this terrible financial crisis has been very difficult. It is not
0:26:46 > 0:26:50entirely surprising, given the enormous size and weight of the
0:26:50 > 0:26:53financial sector, which has been the root of this crisis, really. It
0:26:53 > 0:26:59would take longer in this country than perhaps in other countries.
0:26:59 > 0:27:04What he means is that you need to have the policy input that will
0:27:04 > 0:27:07allow finally for growth to escape out of this low growth environment,
0:27:07 > 0:27:11and create prosperity and sustainable growth again. Do you
0:27:11 > 0:27:16think accountability and openness with him will extend to letting us
0:27:16 > 0:27:20know if there is going to be, for example, a sustained period of low
0:27:20 > 0:27:25interest rates, letting the public in on that? I think the fact is we
0:27:25 > 0:27:30don't know. The very essence of Central Banking, or of economic
0:27:30 > 0:27:32policy making, generally, is uncertainty. He made that very
0:27:32 > 0:27:36clear today, that he doesn't even know what the economy will look
0:27:36 > 0:27:39like five months from now when he arrives here in London. There is
0:27:39 > 0:27:42great uncertainty. But at the same time, it certainly looks like we
0:27:42 > 0:27:44will have low interest rates, for quite some time, not just in this
0:27:44 > 0:27:49country, but in many other countries as well. That has been
0:27:49 > 0:27:52one of the features of this crisis, and is partly a result of the
0:27:52 > 0:27:57policy response that we have seen all over the world. When you look
0:27:57 > 0:28:01at the state of the UK economy, what do you do, do you shake your
0:28:01 > 0:28:05head? So I'm a visitor here, I have lived ten years here before, I'm
0:28:05 > 0:28:08now back for a second time, it is a wonderful country. That is why you
0:28:08 > 0:28:11are our man to ask? It is very important for the British people to
0:28:11 > 0:28:14have some confidence. This is a great country, this is a country
0:28:14 > 0:28:20that historically has been an extraordinarily resilient country.
0:28:20 > 0:28:24What about now? I have no doubt this resilience will eventually
0:28:24 > 0:28:27lead the way out of this terrible period. We have to accept that at
0:28:27 > 0:28:30the root of of this crisis was the financial sector, which is very
0:28:30 > 0:28:35important in this country. So it will take time. It is going to take
0:28:35 > 0:28:40some patience. Thank you very much.
0:28:40 > 0:28:44Do you remember last November when EU leaders put off until another
0:28:44 > 0:28:50summit a decision on how much Europe should spend? Well, it's
0:28:50 > 0:28:54here, and Mark Urban is there. How is it going Mark?
0:28:54 > 0:28:58Well, the leaders arrived here in such an uncompromising mood, that
0:28:58 > 0:29:04the people trying to choreograph the talks, to get them into
0:29:04 > 0:29:08agreement, had to start this summit nearly six hours late. As it stand,
0:29:08 > 0:29:12Herman van Rompuy, the point man in trying to gain agreement, still
0:29:12 > 0:29:16hasn't tabled his compromise proposal. So concerned is he about
0:29:16 > 0:29:19the distance that still separate the different parties and the fact
0:29:20 > 0:29:23that someone might veto his proposal as soon as he tables it.
0:29:23 > 0:29:28So they could be talking well into the night. The fascinating thing is
0:29:28 > 0:29:38the way that the countries seem to be lining up, and that it is along
0:29:38 > 0:29:38
0:29:38 > 0:29:42the lines of an ancient fault lion that can still be seen at play.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45-- fault line that can still be seen at play.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49Centuries ago Europe was sharply divided by religion.
0:29:49 > 0:29:53And the Protestant northerners considered themselves more
0:29:53 > 0:30:01righteous, clearer thinking, than those who retained their faith in
0:30:01 > 0:30:06the old doctrines of the Catholic Church. With today's budget
0:30:06 > 0:30:12deadlock, there are curious echos of that. From Germany, to the
0:30:12 > 0:30:17netherland, Sweden or the UK. There is a desire for cuts, pulling the
0:30:17 > 0:30:21plug on the union's traditional preservation schemes. I don't want
0:30:21 > 0:30:25to labour the religious analogy, but there is one interesting point
0:30:25 > 0:30:29of comparison. Today, assent trees ago, the northern nations demand
0:30:29 > 0:30:39reformation. It is as if they can't stand bureaucracy, waste, and by
0:30:39 > 0:30:40
0:30:40 > 0:30:43implication, hand-outs. As he arrived for today's meeting I asked
0:30:43 > 0:30:46Sweden's Prime Minister whether there were political risks in a
0:30:47 > 0:30:49division of north and south. For a long time now, a lot of problems in
0:30:49 > 0:30:57southern Europe, they need to increase their competitiveness.
0:30:57 > 0:31:01They have a lot of tough reforms, a lot of their people are tired of
0:31:01 > 0:31:10all of these austerity measures. At the same time, in northern Europe
0:31:10 > 0:31:14we have a more competitive economy. Then, of course, we need to take
0:31:14 > 0:31:19care of the European Union itself will increase the competitiveness
0:31:19 > 0:31:23of Europe as a whole. It is clear, now, that the northern block is
0:31:23 > 0:31:27happy to promote itself as such. For soon after he appeared, David
0:31:27 > 0:31:34Cameron came to call upon the Swedish Prime Minister, followed by
0:31:34 > 0:31:38the leader of the netherlands and Denmark, they held a meeting to co-
0:31:38 > 0:31:44ordinate their position, vowing to hold firm for firming cuts in the
0:31:44 > 0:31:48EU one trillion euro plan for the next seven years. But where was
0:31:48 > 0:31:55Europe's lynch pin in this. Chancellor Angela Merkel stayed
0:31:55 > 0:31:59away from the meeting, despite sharing many of the northern state
0:31:59 > 0:32:02estimates' views, perhaps acknowledging the danger of
0:32:02 > 0:32:07polarisation. TRANSLATION: We are coming together today and tomorrow
0:32:07 > 0:32:11in a new attempt to agree a financial plan for the European
0:32:11 > 0:32:17Council, which will be put to parliament. Whether it will be
0:32:17 > 0:32:21successful, we cannot say. Those in the other corner, including Italy,
0:32:21 > 0:32:27Spain and France, emphasise solidarity, and the need to spend
0:32:27 > 0:32:32in order to grow out of recession. They decry what seems to be debate
0:32:32 > 0:32:36in which some characterise the Mediterranean countries as idle.
0:32:36 > 0:32:41It is true that there is some countries that have borrowed beyond
0:32:41 > 0:32:44their capability to pay back, there is also countries and institutions
0:32:44 > 0:32:49that have lent without the sufficient credit analysis that
0:32:49 > 0:32:56they should have done at the time. And they lent to lose. That cycle
0:32:56 > 0:32:59is reinforced by both sides of the situation. We should put it into a
0:32:59 > 0:33:03moral context, it is not that there is good people or bad people.
0:33:03 > 0:33:07lazy and hard working? Or lazy versus hard working people. What
0:33:07 > 0:33:12was clear is as the leaders assembled for talks tonight is that
0:33:12 > 0:33:16gaps of perception, as well as bugetry figure, remain large.
0:33:16 > 0:33:20Compromise is essential, since the leaders failed to agree at the last
0:33:20 > 0:33:25summit. And Ireland, now holding the EU presidency, is struggling to
0:33:25 > 0:33:29achieve it, all too aware that voices off may regard this
0:33:29 > 0:33:34torturous negotiating process as a sign of deeper dysfunction. It is
0:33:34 > 0:33:38not an ideal process, that is for sure. I think if you were starting
0:33:38 > 0:33:43from scratch you would probably devise a better way to come up with
0:33:43 > 0:33:49the budget. It is a legacy and it is a process that has evolved over
0:33:49 > 0:33:53many decades at this stage. It is not perfect, but from our point of
0:33:53 > 0:33:56view the EU budget adds value. When we look at the EU budget, like a
0:33:56 > 0:34:01national budget, you know, we have to spend better, we have to be
0:34:01 > 0:34:04smarter in terms of how we invest our euros, and at EU level that is
0:34:04 > 0:34:07particularly important when you are talking about transnational
0:34:07 > 0:34:09projects, when you are talking about the connecting Europe
0:34:09 > 0:34:12facility, for example, when you are talking about research and
0:34:12 > 0:34:17development, when you are talking about those types of investments.
0:34:17 > 0:34:22We have to be smart, we have to be future orientated, and we have to
0:34:22 > 0:34:26be careful with tax-payers' money. Britain is sitting comfortably
0:34:26 > 0:34:30among the budget hawks. It is not isolated, as so often here. But the
0:34:30 > 0:34:35question for the Swedes or others is whether they will also line up
0:34:35 > 0:34:39with Britain on the big picture of getting a new deal in Europe.
0:34:39 > 0:34:44listen to the UK, and David Cameron, and let's say it is a good thing
0:34:44 > 0:34:47that he is taking an initiative that can enable the UK to stay
0:34:47 > 0:34:55inside the European Union, because that is an absolute value for
0:34:55 > 0:34:59Sweden. It is an important ally for Sweden and for Europe. So I will be
0:34:59 > 0:35:04pragmatic and listen to David Cameron. But, it is a tough thing
0:35:04 > 0:35:09to say that you should renegotiate a lot of the substantial parts of
0:35:09 > 0:35:14the European Union that are already in place.
0:35:14 > 0:35:19Europe is too secular, too modern these days to default to the old
0:35:19 > 0:35:23religious division. But they do appear still to inform its culture,
0:35:23 > 0:35:30and some of its stereotypes. Under the pressure of economic stagnation,
0:35:30 > 0:35:36the differences between Europe's north and south may now intensify.
0:35:36 > 0:35:40With those differences, will Mr Hollande be the key? Sorry, I
0:35:40 > 0:35:47didn't catch your question. Will there Mr Hollande be the key to
0:35:47 > 0:35:51solving these differences between north and south? Well, he, of
0:35:52 > 0:35:54course, is a key protaganist in this. He has vowed to defend the
0:35:54 > 0:35:59principle of solidarity, as he calls t which is redistribution
0:35:59 > 0:36:05from the richer to the poorer regions of Europe. People say that
0:36:05 > 0:36:09he and Mr Cameron arrived in much more difficult or intransigent
0:36:09 > 0:36:14moods, threaten to go veto any proposals, than was expected. So a
0:36:14 > 0:36:17meeting that we had been expecting, in which Angela Merkel was going to
0:36:17 > 0:36:21sit with the two men and mediate a solution, did not happen. Mr
0:36:21 > 0:36:24Hollande did not come to that meeting, David Cameron did. Now
0:36:24 > 0:36:28there are all sorts of possible explanations for this, it was a
0:36:28 > 0:36:32diary problem, as he co-ordinated with some of the others, President
0:36:32 > 0:36:36Hollande, through to the differences were still too grait
0:36:36 > 0:36:41great, and the Germans themselves - - great, and the Germans themselves
0:36:41 > 0:36:44felt maybe it would do harm to air them in that forum why. One person
0:36:44 > 0:36:47on the inside of these talks tonight, told me that Mr Hollande
0:36:47 > 0:36:50seems to have come to the conclusion, that the defence of the
0:36:50 > 0:36:53principle that is he feels Europe is built on, for example against
0:36:53 > 0:36:57David Cameron's agenda, set out in his recent speech, on renegotiation,
0:36:57 > 0:37:04starts here. Should we expect decisions at this
0:37:04 > 0:37:07summit, or just another summit? Well, you know, the issues have
0:37:07 > 0:37:12become largely symbolic in this, I think. The negotiating box, which
0:37:12 > 0:37:15the two sides are arguing about, on the spending, should not be that
0:37:15 > 0:37:19hard to bridge. That is why many people before this said there
0:37:19 > 0:37:23should be agreement. But then there is the whole question of to what
0:37:23 > 0:37:28degree the European Parliament will sign off on what the leaders agree.
0:37:28 > 0:37:33So, will it come to an agreement, very hard to say. If it does, will
0:37:33 > 0:37:39it then go through the parliament? This could be a prolonged crisis.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43Thank you. Before the end of the programme, we
0:37:43 > 0:37:48will look at tomorrow's front pages before your eyes. Before then a
0:37:48 > 0:37:53light up in your at particulars. You should at least be impressed by
0:37:53 > 0:37:56the fact the largest known prime number has been discovered. Prime
0:37:56 > 0:38:00numbers can only be divided by themselves, and one. And there is
0:38:00 > 0:38:07an infinite number of them, which means mathematitions, like
0:38:07 > 0:38:17undertakers, will always have a job. The huge number was generated by a
0:38:17 > 0:38:20
0:38:21 > 0:38:25computer, and contains 17 million digits, best expresses as 2 raised
0:38:25 > 0:38:29to a very large number. It was started by a 17th century
0:38:29 > 0:38:33French monk, he created a form he believed would help identify big
0:38:33 > 0:38:39crimes. This week's find is only the 48th Mersenne prime to be
0:38:39 > 0:38:46confirmed, and relied on complicated computer all georhythms.
0:38:46 > 0:38:52It shattered the previous biggest discovered four years a with only
0:38:52 > 0:38:5913 million digits, losers! Each number is eligible for the Great
0:38:59 > 0:39:04Successor, or GIMP SFOR short. It hopes there will be the discovery
0:39:04 > 0:39:14of a prime number containing one million digits, which would make it
0:39:14 > 0:39:16
0:39:16 > 0:39:20twice the size of Wales. Dr Curtis Cooper from the
0:39:20 > 0:39:24University of Central Missouri led the search for the big prime number.
0:39:24 > 0:39:30Congratulations. Can you remember the first time that you were aware
0:39:30 > 0:39:35of prime numbers? Not really. I have been interested in mathematics
0:39:35 > 0:39:38since high school, but, and in prime numbers and number theory,
0:39:38 > 0:39:43that has always been a big interest of mine. I can't remember the first
0:39:43 > 0:39:51time. You can't remember how you got on to the big prime numbers
0:39:51 > 0:39:58game. How did that start? OK, there was a George Waltman is the founder
0:39:58 > 0:40:03of this GIMPS project. He started it in 1996, a student of mine in
0:40:03 > 0:40:061997, informed me about the project. He said to me there is a lot of
0:40:06 > 0:40:09computers here at the University of Central Missouri, maybe you can
0:40:09 > 0:40:15harness those and participate in the project. So that was kind of
0:40:15 > 0:40:19the seed that got us going. have held the record for the
0:40:19 > 0:40:27biggest prime number before, what is it you are doing that other
0:40:27 > 0:40:33people aren't? I don't know, exactly. Oh come on, don't be
0:40:33 > 0:40:36modest? We have been lucky, for sure. But I have a lot of support
0:40:36 > 0:40:40from our university, the administration, the technology
0:40:40 > 0:40:43information, information tknolg departments have really helped --
0:40:43 > 0:40:47technology departments have really helped. We have a lot of computers
0:40:47 > 0:40:54on our campus. We have got 1,000 that are working on the project
0:40:54 > 0:41:00right now. As we have had success, it has kind of team rolled, and so
0:41:00 > 0:41:05the administration and -- steam rolled, so the administration and
0:41:05 > 0:41:09services will say they have let me be administrator on the project on
0:41:09 > 0:41:12computers, and I have a server in my office where I can access all
0:41:12 > 0:41:151,000 machines and co-ordinate and start and stop the programme, and
0:41:15 > 0:41:19things like that. Those two things have been a really big help. What
0:41:19 > 0:41:25is the driver here for you, I know there is some prize money, but you
0:41:25 > 0:41:30are not going to be able to retire on it? No, no. In fact, we have
0:41:30 > 0:41:34always taken the prize money and given it back to the university. I
0:41:34 > 0:41:40think what drives me is the process of searching for the primes, and
0:41:40 > 0:41:45the fact that this is kind of like climbing Mount Everest, or diamonds
0:41:45 > 0:41:50in the rough that we are searching for. And just the beauty of the
0:41:50 > 0:41:55mathematics and the all georite ims, and harnessing all the computer
0:41:55 > 0:41:59power, that is what drives me and I love it. Mount Everest is there,
0:41:59 > 0:42:05while these bigger and bigger prime numbers aren't, or you can't see
0:42:05 > 0:42:10them? Yeah, that's right. I'm still wondering what drives you. Because
0:42:10 > 0:42:17some people look at these huge prime number and go, what's the
0:42:17 > 0:42:25point? A lot of people have said that to me. What's the practical
0:42:25 > 0:42:28application of this, and really, nobody has a use for this 17-
0:42:28 > 0:42:31million digit prime we have found. There is no practical application.
0:42:31 > 0:42:35Some of the side benefits. One of the things that used to drive a
0:42:35 > 0:42:40colleague of mine that worked with us in the past, was this
0:42:40 > 0:42:45distributed computing idea. Where you can have a big problem, and you
0:42:45 > 0:42:50can distribute it among a whole bunch of PCs worldwide we have got
0:42:50 > 0:42:56thousands, tens of thousands of PCs worldwide that have downloaded for
0:42:56 > 0:43:01free George Waltman's software, and run it on their computers, and it
0:43:01 > 0:43:05has been co-ordinated by the prime net server in San Diego. That is a
0:43:05 > 0:43:10fascinating model in itself, that you can solve a big problem like
0:43:10 > 0:43:16finding a big prime number, and do it on all these little PCs all over
0:43:16 > 0:43:20the world. Are you good with your tax return? No, not really. My wife
0:43:20 > 0:43:25does our taxes. I don't even touch them! At least the numbers are
0:43:25 > 0:43:29smaller, I guess. What does it mean to you, do you get a sense of
0:43:29 > 0:43:37something, when you see this new big number, what do you see, what
0:43:37 > 0:43:42do you feel when you see it? course it is exciting. And you get
0:43:42 > 0:43:48a sense of satisfaction, because you know the last one we discovered
0:43:48 > 0:43:52was in September of 2006, and so, you know, during the process, in
0:43:52 > 0:43:572009, in 2010, even three or four week ago, I think, gosh, we have
0:43:57 > 0:44:05tested a lot of numbers and haven't found anything, what am I really
0:44:05 > 0:44:08doing. But, what kind of drives me is just the thrill and the prime,
0:44:08 > 0:44:13so and it was announced we discovered it, there was a big
0:44:13 > 0:44:20excitement. Our university has gone crazy. Congratulations.
0:44:20 > 0:44:30notoriety of it. Thank you. Good to hear from you, gone gratlation.
0:44:30 > 0:44:55
0:44:55 > 0:44:58-- congratulations. Let's take a We will encourage to take the
0:44:58 > 0:45:03stairs not the lift. We leave you with some people who raised to the
0:45:03 > 0:45:09top of the Empire State Building, 86 floors, and more steps than the
0:45:09 > 0:45:19big prime numbers. Australians were the fastest men and women, Mark
0:45:19 > 0:45:21Borne made the climb in ten minutes and ten seconds.
0:45:21 > 0:45:24# Ain't nothing gonna break my stride
0:45:24 > 0:45:28# I'm running and I won't touch ground