:00:12. > :00:17.Tonight, the stunning announcement by the Pope that he is to quit. The
:00:17. > :00:22.first to do so in almost 600 years. Back in 1415, Pope Gregory didn't
:00:22. > :00:26.have to deal with the modern media, child abuse scandals, aid or
:00:26. > :00:29.contraception. Where does Pope Benedict now leave the Roman
:00:29. > :00:35.Catholic Church? We will ask is it about time we had a Pope not from
:00:35. > :00:37.Europe. Also tonight:
:00:37. > :00:41.Britain's age crisis, the Government offers new help on
:00:41. > :00:46.paying for care. But does it really mean you will not have to sell your
:00:46. > :00:51.home when you get old? We sold her house pretty early on
:00:51. > :00:55.in the proceedings. My guess is that we have probably got enough,
:00:55. > :01:00.but the current rate, for about another two years before she's
:01:00. > :01:10.penniless. We will hear from the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt. And,
:01:10. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:15.who is the Fleet Street Fox? You are about to find out! Good evening,
:01:15. > :01:20.there is no doubt that Pope Benedict has grown increasingly
:01:20. > :01:24.frail in recent month. Some say he was acutely aware that the illness
:01:24. > :01:31.of his charismatic predecessor, John Paul II, left the church
:01:31. > :01:33.rudderless towards the end. Pope Benedict is widely admired as
:01:33. > :01:37.theologian and intellectual, there will be some in the church content
:01:37. > :01:41.to see him go. He was criticised for his apparent slowness to get to
:01:41. > :01:45.grips with the child abuse scandal, and not modernising the church the
:01:45. > :01:49.way the critics wanted. We will get to those issues in a moment. We
:01:49. > :01:53.begin the coverage live in Rome with our correspondent Alan Little.
:01:53. > :01:57.Have you met anybody there who was not surs priced by this decision?
:01:57. > :02:02.No, it has stunned the entire city, and the entire Catholic world.
:02:02. > :02:06.There wasn't a hint of this in advance. Pope Benedict did in his
:02:06. > :02:10.statement, in Latin, to the cardials he made the announcement
:02:10. > :02:15.to give a clue. He said having examined his conscience before God.
:02:15. > :02:18.It is entirely possible that he consulted nobody, that he took this
:02:18. > :02:23.decision entirely alone, after months of contemplation and prayer.
:02:23. > :02:27.He also gave some clues as to why he might have done T he said in
:02:27. > :02:32.today's world subject to so many rapid changes, and shaken by
:02:32. > :02:35.questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern,
:02:35. > :02:39.the Barque of St Peter, and proclaim the gospel, both strength
:02:39. > :02:43.of mind and body are necessary. That is clearly a reference to the
:02:43. > :02:47.kinds of things you were mentioning in your introduction there, the
:02:47. > :02:51.child abuse scandal and so on, it needs much more a rigorous person
:02:51. > :02:55.in charge to meet the challenges of today's world. One thing that
:02:55. > :02:59.really strike me, for a figure that some people saw as quite a
:02:59. > :03:04.Conservative figure, this is an extraordinary radical thing to do.
:03:04. > :03:09.It is great paradox, it may be the most modernising thing he has done
:03:09. > :03:12.in his entire pontificate. He has broken with 600 years of precedent.
:03:12. > :03:17.There hasn't been a single time, since before the reformation, when
:03:17. > :03:23.it has been true that a regining Pope has been alive at the same
:03:23. > :03:27.time as an ex-Pope. That opens up some real danger. There may be some
:03:27. > :03:31.in the Catholic fold who will wonder after the new Pope takes
:03:31. > :03:36.office, what the real Pope thinks, particularly if the successor is
:03:36. > :03:39.someone who breaks with the conservative policies and
:03:39. > :03:42.philosophies of Pope Benedict. We can assume he plans to disappear
:03:42. > :03:45.from public view, and not to make any public statements, for fear of
:03:45. > :03:49.causing a split in the Channel Tunnel. This is a very radical
:03:49. > :03:53.thing, -- in the church. This is a very radical thing for a
:03:53. > :03:57.conservative Pontiff to have done. What is the Benedict legacy, and is
:03:57. > :04:02.it time for Rome to find a successor, not from increasingly
:04:02. > :04:06.secular Europe, but from the real powerhouses of modern Catholicism,
:04:06. > :04:15.Africa and out South America. We have looked at the recent past and
:04:15. > :04:21.looking into the future of the papacy and the church.
:04:21. > :04:25.He's a Pope normally known for his caution and conservatism. But the
:04:25. > :04:32.announcement Benedict XVI made today, is so unusual, it is said to
:04:32. > :04:38.have bum dumb founded even his closest -- dumb founded even his
:04:38. > :04:42.closest aides. TRANSLATION: I have had to recognise my incapacity for
:04:42. > :04:50.fulfiling the ministry entrusted to me. I'm well aware of the
:04:50. > :04:55.seriousness of this act. With full freedom anouns I step down from the
:04:55. > :05:00.Bishop of Rome. He is the first Pope to resign, rather than die in
:05:00. > :05:04.office, since Gregory XII, almost 600 years ago.
:05:04. > :05:07.Although his physical frailty has become increasingly apparent, and
:05:07. > :05:13.he hinted in an interview two years ago he might take the step. Few
:05:13. > :05:19.took the possibility seriously. On the streets of Rome tonight, there
:05:19. > :05:26.was considerable bewilderment. TRANSLATION: It was a total
:05:26. > :05:29.surprise. No-one was expecting news like this. TRANSLATION: It's once
:05:29. > :05:35.in a lifetime news, nothing like this has ever happened before. A
:05:35. > :05:39.Pope has never stepped down like this. TRANSLATION: I think there
:05:39. > :05:42.will have been other reasons, but I don't know. I don't know whether it
:05:42. > :05:46.is internal church matters, or whether it is to do with the
:05:46. > :05:50.difficult relationships the Pope had with the outside world. I'm
:05:50. > :05:53.thinking of the problems relating to paedophilia. The Pope has had a
:05:53. > :05:58.number of issues he has had to confront. As well as the usual
:05:58. > :06:01.strains of office, heavy on a man of 85, Benedict has had the
:06:01. > :06:05.additional stress of the scandals that have broken around the church
:06:05. > :06:09.in recent years. The flood of allegations of abuse of children by
:06:09. > :06:14.priests. And last year, the conviction of his former butler,
:06:14. > :06:19.for stealing his private papers and leaking them to a journalist.
:06:19. > :06:25.documents were very, very confidential ones. They showed huge
:06:25. > :06:31.tensions and conflicts within the Vatican. And it turned out that the
:06:31. > :06:37.source of these was a member of the Pope's own household. His butler. I
:06:37. > :06:43.was told when I was in Rome late last year that this had had really
:06:43. > :06:49.distressed the Pope. Really had been, perhaps even, I don't know,
:06:49. > :06:54.the straw that broke the camel's back.
:06:54. > :06:58.Following John Paul II, his charismatic and often energetic
:06:59. > :07:03.predecessor, was a hard task for Benedict. The former Cardinal
:07:03. > :07:08.Ratzinger was a shy, bookish man, passionate about doctrine, who had
:07:08. > :07:11.been a professor of theology in his native Germany. When he was first
:07:11. > :07:15.elected, there was some controversy over his membership, aged 14 of the
:07:15. > :07:21.Hitler youth, though boys of his age were required to join. Far more
:07:21. > :07:24.serious of the criticism of much later in his life, as the Vatican's
:07:24. > :07:29.chief enforcer, he failed to deal adequately with the allegations of
:07:29. > :07:35.abuse by Clergy. I think he will go down in history as the ostrich Pope,
:07:35. > :07:42.the one who stuck his head in the sand, while the storm was brewing.
:07:42. > :07:47.From 1981 on wards, he was head of the Vatican body that was in charge
:07:47. > :07:52.of disciplining earnt priests, and yet, we have --er rent priests, and
:07:52. > :07:55.yet, we have discovered letters in American mediation, where he wrote
:07:55. > :08:00.to bishops saying please can we defrock the priest, and he was
:08:00. > :08:06.saying no, he's old, or he's young, founding reasons not to defrock
:08:06. > :08:11.priests, who they knew were guilty. He thinks when Benedict now retires,
:08:11. > :08:15.he may face lawsuits from abuse survivors. While he's Pope, he is
:08:15. > :08:20.head of state, it is something of a make-believe state, the Vatican,
:08:20. > :08:25.but it is nonetheless regarded as a state. So he has absolute immunity
:08:25. > :08:33.against all lawsuits. But as General Pinochet found, when he
:08:33. > :08:39.became an ex-head of state, that immunity withers away.
:08:39. > :08:43.I am deeply sorry for the pain and suffering the victims have endured.
:08:43. > :08:48.Pope Benedict made an unprecedented apology to abuse victim, and he
:08:48. > :08:52.made it easier to defrock guilty priests. But for many, including
:08:52. > :08:57.many Catholics, that wasn't enough. He spoke at one time about the need
:08:57. > :09:03.to get rid of the filth in the church, and people believed he was
:09:03. > :09:10.talking about the child abuse saga. The difficulty for him has been
:09:10. > :09:16.that throughout his papacy, there have been indications that senior
:09:16. > :09:20.clerics in the church, who were aware of problems with priests, had
:09:20. > :09:24.covered them up. Now they might have been historic, but they keep
:09:24. > :09:31.coming out. There has been a terrible case in America recently,
:09:31. > :09:37.and so the trust of people in the world at large, let alone Catholics,
:09:37. > :09:41.is constantly challenged, and has been throughout this papacy.
:09:41. > :09:45.yet, as Benedict showed on his visit to Britain in 2010, he has
:09:45. > :09:48.been able to inspire many. There has been opposition to his
:09:48. > :09:52.traditionalist views on homosexuality, abortion,
:09:52. > :09:56.contraception and women priests, but those positions are also widely
:09:56. > :10:03.supported. Particularly in parts of Africa, Latin America, and Asia.
:10:03. > :10:07.Where the church is now stronger than in many European countries.
:10:07. > :10:13.Might the next Pope, for the first time in history, be a non-European.
:10:13. > :10:19.It is from west Africa that one of the most likely candidates comes.
:10:19. > :10:23.myself might be the next Pope, is it possible? Again, this is almost
:10:23. > :10:31.like saying something I said already in 2009, when I got here to
:10:31. > :10:35.Rome. If God so wishes, then I will probably say "his will be done".
:10:35. > :10:40.After the shock of today's news, the church has just a few weeks to
:10:40. > :10:45.decide. The smoke that signals the election of a new Pope is expected
:10:45. > :10:48.to rise before Easter. We can discuss all this with Fiona
:10:48. > :10:51.O'Reilly from Catholic Voices, Lavinia Byrne, a former nun, who
:10:52. > :10:58.left her religious order over the issue of women priests, Michael
:10:58. > :11:03.Walsh, a Catholic author and historian, but first, Father
:11:03. > :11:08.Christopher Jamison a former abbot, and star of the BBC series The
:11:08. > :11:12.Abbey. A lot of Popes, for hundreds of years have gone through
:11:12. > :11:18.infirmity and old age and continued in office. Why has it stopped him?
:11:18. > :11:22.If we take the previous Pope, John Paul II he saw his illness as a
:11:22. > :11:26.witness to those who are sick and infirm. He wanted people to see him
:11:26. > :11:29.in his infirmity. He went to the balcony to show himself and say I'm
:11:29. > :11:34.still a child of God and this is an important witness of the importance
:11:34. > :11:38.of caring for the sick and infirm and dying. Now, Pope Benedict is
:11:38. > :11:41.not ill, he's just very old. I think there is a significant
:11:41. > :11:46.difference. That because people can now live, not so much through
:11:46. > :11:51.illness, but they can live through old age quite remarkably, for a
:11:51. > :11:54.very long time, he could live with us for many, many more years. He's
:11:54. > :11:58.aware that actually the declining years of a person who is just
:11:58. > :12:01.ageing is quite different to a person who is sick. He feels it is
:12:01. > :12:06.right, in all humility to admit that and step down. Do you think it
:12:06. > :12:09.is partly to do with, getting on to the spiritual role in a moment, but
:12:09. > :12:14.the managerial role in the church, which is very taxing, and that's
:12:14. > :12:18.where he has run into some trouble, not the spiritual, intellectual,
:12:18. > :12:21.theological side, but it demands someone who is fitter? It demands
:12:22. > :12:27.someone who is fit to deal with what is a significant organisation.
:12:27. > :12:31.I also think what has distressed him, is, for example, I'm told his
:12:31. > :12:37.doctors told him he shouldn't do any transatlantic travel. One of
:12:37. > :12:43.the high points of the church's life is World Youth Day, next one
:12:43. > :12:46.is in Rio deJanuary nary in July, he feels that millions of young
:12:46. > :12:52.Catholics would be very disappointed to have World Youth
:12:52. > :12:55.Day without the Pope. That is the Pope's personal invitation to the
:12:55. > :13:01.world, and he probably feels they deserve to have the Pope there.
:13:01. > :13:06.you feel in a secular world, we fail to, particularly media, we
:13:06. > :13:13.fail to recognise the spiritual side, and we treat him as if he's
:13:13. > :13:17.the head of BP, Microsoft or Apple, and that's where it is the
:13:17. > :13:21.difference. You have put your finger on T he feels above all, the
:13:21. > :13:26.role of spiritual head requires energy, to preach, to counsel, to
:13:26. > :13:30.teach. He's, above all, a teacher, if he feels he can't teach he's not
:13:30. > :13:34.able to fulfil a key role in the church. You are right, most chief
:13:34. > :13:39.executives don't have to be teachers, along with being chief
:13:39. > :13:45.executives. He has been widely praised today as an intellectual
:13:45. > :13:49.and theologian, was he up to the challenges of the modern media and
:13:49. > :13:55.the issues, like child abuse, and we heard about the butler which
:13:55. > :14:00.took a toll on him personally. has shown himself shrewd about the
:14:00. > :14:06.media, he's the first Pope to tweet. It was a media he could handle. The
:14:06. > :14:09.challenge to speak in 144 characters is a good challenge for
:14:09. > :14:12.an intellectual. He did interviews live where he allowed young people
:14:12. > :14:15.to send him questions. He's not intimidated by that. He's
:14:15. > :14:20.intimidated by the pace of it, not the reality of it, but the sheer
:14:20. > :14:24.pace of it. Let me bring in our other guests, I said to our
:14:24. > :14:27.reporter at the start, this is for somebody often considered to be a
:14:27. > :14:32.conservative, we can debate that, many people think he is very
:14:32. > :14:36.conservative on some issues, this was an amazingly radical step for
:14:36. > :14:40.him to take? It was, but he has been radical in a subdued way on
:14:40. > :14:43.other issues. For example, he is one of the first Popes we have seen
:14:44. > :14:47.really provide teaching in the moment, that's relevant to the big
:14:47. > :14:53.questions that civil society is facing. A good example would be, as
:14:53. > :14:56.the world was wrestling with the causes of the economic crisis
:14:56. > :14:59.between 2007-2010, he was the first one to come out and saying everyone
:14:59. > :15:02.was relying on market forces and reward being enough to make people
:15:03. > :15:07.do the right thing, that money without an ethical framework around
:15:07. > :15:10.it gets you into a lot of hot water very quickly. Actually, he has been
:15:10. > :15:15.a reformer, but perhaps a very understated one. Do you think
:15:15. > :15:19.people are wrong to see him as a conservative? He's conservative in
:15:20. > :15:22.one ways, but there is more to him than meets the eye. His work to
:15:22. > :15:27.reform Vatican finances is another place where he has taken steps to
:15:27. > :15:31.open up the Vatican, they haven't caught the media attention, or had
:15:31. > :15:35.the coverage that we will, in the end, realise they may have merited.
:15:35. > :15:40.Lavinia Byrne, how do you see him, and see this legacy in terms of
:15:40. > :15:48.reform and change, or otherwise? Well, clearly he was always going
:15:48. > :15:56.to be a transitional Pope. The Cardinals who elect him knew he was
:15:56. > :16:01.an old man. They must have envisaged a short period of office
:16:02. > :16:08.for him. What's intriguing is that he has removed himself, and on
:16:08. > :16:13.today of all days, the feast of Our Lady of Lourdes, which is a date
:16:13. > :16:22.that is supposed to be all about healing, and about health, so, what
:16:22. > :16:27.this is health-wise, what it means, is still intriguing, I think.
:16:27. > :16:30.can I put it, are you glad, frankly, that he has decided to go, because
:16:30. > :16:36.you hope that the future may be more to your liking within the
:16:36. > :16:41.church? No, I think it would be ungrae gracious to say that I was -
:16:41. > :16:47.- ungracious to say I was glad. In my lifetime there have been seven
:16:47. > :16:55.Popes, you know Popes come, Popes go, the church goes on forever. But
:16:55. > :17:00.I do envisage a future that is more open to addressing the critical
:17:00. > :17:05.question about how the church inhabits the world. It's no good
:17:05. > :17:10.just condemning secularism, the church must deal with the questions
:17:10. > :17:19.that are being raised by contemporary society, and discern
:17:19. > :17:23.where God's will is. I wonder if he suffers in comparison with his
:17:23. > :17:26.predecessor. The famous quote was, if John Paul II had chosen another
:17:26. > :17:31.profession, he would have been a film star, and Pope Benedict would
:17:31. > :17:33.have been a university professor. There is something in that? He was
:17:34. > :17:38.a university professor, I don't think that is true about John Paul
:17:38. > :17:42.II, he would have probably been a footballer! The point is the same?
:17:42. > :17:46.The point is the same, I take it. One of the things I feel about it,
:17:46. > :17:50.and I feel about what has already been said, is this managerial role.
:17:50. > :17:56.I mean the Vatican is a very dysfuntional organisation at the
:17:56. > :18:02.moment, it was under the last years of his predecessor, probably was
:18:02. > :18:08.throughout the whole of his time, it really wasn't that he was
:18:08. > :18:16.interested in that side of things at all. So, you have got the Pope
:18:16. > :18:21.coming in with a dysfuntional, and a lot of us thought the election of
:18:21. > :18:29.a ecurial official, a non-Italian, without some of the traditional
:18:29. > :18:32.ties they have, he was chosen to reform the ecurial, and that hasn't
:18:32. > :18:36.happened. As all the revelations that came out with the butler's
:18:36. > :18:41.letters revealed to us. I think it has got much worse. I think the
:18:41. > :18:44.money thing is an interesting one. You can't really say that he has
:18:44. > :18:48.reformed the finances. You can't say he has reformed the finances,
:18:48. > :18:52.you can't reform the Vatican money system, when the European banks
:18:52. > :18:55.have turned around and said we won't accept credit card
:18:55. > :19:00.transactions because you haven't got adequate money laundering
:19:00. > :19:05.structures in place. Hold on a second, that's not true.
:19:05. > :19:08.European Union's body for dealing with these issues gave the Vatican,
:19:08. > :19:13.which had only just entered into the system of trying to comply with
:19:13. > :19:17.the money standards. They said the Vatican City had made great
:19:17. > :19:20.progress, even though there was more to be done. Everyone was
:19:20. > :19:25.frankly surprised when bank turned around and withdrew the credit.
:19:25. > :19:27.That is a little bit of a red herring in this, it is the Money
:19:27. > :19:32.Val's judgment, the European Union's judgment, which said the
:19:32. > :19:36.Vatican City is heading in the right way. That was the Pope's
:19:36. > :19:39.initiative. For some people the legacy of this Pope will be
:19:39. > :19:44.unfortunately the person on whose watch we all became aware of child
:19:44. > :19:48.abuse. He didn't do enough to stop it? I think what we have got to
:19:48. > :19:52.recognise is, he was on a learning curve as much as anybody else in
:19:52. > :19:57.society. Getting his head round the phenomenon of paedophilia, the
:19:57. > :20:01.global scale of this issue, and did he learn enough fast enough, did he
:20:01. > :20:05.act or go far enough, those are all good questions we have to ask. What
:20:05. > :20:10.is for sure is he is a Pope who was determined to tackle this head-on.
:20:10. > :20:13.He was one of the first to actually meet repeatedly with victims, at
:20:13. > :20:19.their request, behind closed doors, away from the glare of the media.
:20:19. > :20:23.He was the one that reformed Canon Law, so it was easier to expel
:20:23. > :20:27.priests. One of the criticisms was he was slow and actually at the
:20:27. > :20:31.start he covered it up, he did get there eventually? It is not fair to
:20:31. > :20:34.say he covered it up, I think it is fair to say he was grappling to
:20:34. > :20:39.understand and get the facts on the table to see the scale of the issue.
:20:39. > :20:42.Has he gone far enough and fast enough, has he dealt with it? No,
:20:42. > :20:46.is there more to be done, absolutely. I think we will see for
:20:46. > :20:49.the first time that the church actually said we have a huge
:20:49. > :20:52.problem, we have got this absolutely wrong, and we have to
:20:52. > :20:56.act and take steps in the right direction. You left over the issue
:20:57. > :21:00.of women in the church and the role of women in the church. I'm
:21:00. > :21:03.wondering what challenges you see for his success so, and whether
:21:03. > :21:07.that person, perhaps if he comes from Latin America, or Africa, may
:21:07. > :21:14.just be a greater symbol of the change within the church?
:21:14. > :21:18.things, the new Pope has to deal with the immediately, one is
:21:18. > :21:27.internal organisation, we need a man with a big broom, who will go
:21:27. > :21:31.in and sort out the Vatican. Sort out the curia, but also we need
:21:31. > :21:36.somebody who is prepared to engage with the questions that really need
:21:36. > :21:42.addressing. Particularly about the use of power in the church. And
:21:42. > :21:50.that is why, increasingly, I go back to the role of women. Because,
:21:50. > :21:58.the church have the idea it would be a good idea to educate girls,
:21:58. > :22:02.but what does it know, it doesn't seem to know what to do with
:22:02. > :22:09.educated women. It seems to me all the questions about child abuse as
:22:09. > :22:16.well, are really about the abuse of power, rather than limit it to a
:22:16. > :22:22.sexual perspective. Clergy who are accountable for their use of power,
:22:22. > :22:26.will not abuse so easily. That's the key issue to be addressed.
:22:26. > :22:29.Clerical power. Do you agree with some of that? I think that some of
:22:29. > :22:32.what has been said has to be taken very, very seriously, I wouldn't
:22:32. > :22:36.put it in quite the stark terms that she does. If you take the
:22:36. > :22:40.issue about a big broom to clean out the Vatican. I think it is one
:22:40. > :22:45.of the most commonly said things about any in coming Government is
:22:45. > :22:49.it will have to come to grips with the Civil Service. We have it here
:22:49. > :22:53.in Britain, everybody complains about the Civil Service. They
:22:53. > :22:56.always have difficulties internally, any in coming leader has to grapple
:22:56. > :23:02.with that. To imagine that the Vatican has a monopoly of those
:23:02. > :23:05.issues is wrong. I know that coming back to the women issue, the role
:23:05. > :23:11.of women in the church in the exercise of power in the church,
:23:11. > :23:16.this is a very serious issue. I was very struck that there was an
:23:16. > :23:21.American Cardinal, Cardinal dole lan, who said the one way -- D
:23:21. > :23:24.Cardinal Dolan, to say the one way to deal with it is to have a woman
:23:24. > :23:28.Cardinal. And it was extraordinary, there is no block to that, you
:23:28. > :23:31.don't have to be ordained to be a Cardinal. You have to be a cleric
:23:31. > :23:35.to be a Cardinal, you can't have women clerics. In terms of the big
:23:35. > :23:39.broom, do you think it would be refreshing if this were a non-
:23:39. > :23:43.European, is that irrelevant? afraid I part company with a lot of
:23:43. > :23:46.people on this. I'm regarded to be on the liberal side of the church,
:23:46. > :23:50.most liberals would say we ought to have a Latin American, I don't go
:23:50. > :23:54.along with that, and for this reason, it is partly the management
:23:54. > :24:00.issue that you touched upon. In fact, what happens if you choose
:24:01. > :24:05.the very best man to run the church? From wherever he is in the
:24:05. > :24:07.world. You have a chief executive, you have got exactly what
:24:07. > :24:12.Christopher Jamison was saying he doesn't want. That is the notion,
:24:12. > :24:15.what Rome needs is a bishop, it is about time we got back to having a
:24:15. > :24:19.Bishop of Rome, rather than a Pontiff or Pope that governs the
:24:19. > :24:24.whole church in the way he has been doing in fairly recent to the last
:24:24. > :24:28.couple of centuries. Basically I think it would be a mistake to
:24:28. > :24:31.choose somebody from outside. word? We have to look at the
:24:31. > :24:34.pontificate in the round, there is steps Ford and more working to done.
:24:34. > :24:39.The issue of women and their ordination into the priesthood is a
:24:39. > :24:43.fascinating one, it is not even to do with this pontificate, John Paul
:24:43. > :24:49.II came out and said it is not about whether or not we want to
:24:49. > :24:53.ordain them it is what is in the books, and what Cardinal Ratzinger,
:24:53. > :24:58.and Benedict XVI as he has done is realise the Laity, male and female
:24:58. > :25:01.have a huge role to play. It will be to see if if the next Pope
:25:01. > :25:06.builds on that. Thank you very much. In a moment we
:25:06. > :25:11.reveal the Fleet Street Fox, why have their blogs and tweets
:25:11. > :25:15.intrigued and annoyed so many. One definition of surprise is the
:25:15. > :25:19.dog which walks on two leg, he might not do it perfectly, but the
:25:19. > :25:23.surprise is he does it at all. You might say the same about care of
:25:23. > :25:28.the elderly, which for years has been bedevilled Governments who
:25:28. > :25:34.want us to encourage us to save for our own age, and knowing that the
:25:34. > :25:37.penalty of it is when we get old and need help we might have to sell
:25:38. > :25:42.our houses to pay for the care. The Government has taken a step to deal
:25:42. > :25:46.with the issue. Although there was criticism of the details, there was
:25:46. > :25:48.recognition that doing it at all in difficult economic times may be an
:25:48. > :25:53.important step. Diana Golding had enjoyed a
:25:53. > :25:56.fulfiling old age. Busy with two son, five grandchildren, three
:25:56. > :26:01.great-grand children. But for the last six years she hasn't been able
:26:01. > :26:07.to recognise any of them. Dementia has effectively removed her from
:26:07. > :26:12.her family, and left her dependant on full-time care in Shropshire.
:26:12. > :26:19.sold her house pretty early on in the proceedings. In 2006, because
:26:19. > :26:27.we knew we were going to need the money and the house was otherwise
:26:27. > :26:32.empty and decaying. We subsequently invested that money, but we're
:26:32. > :26:36.getting a little towards the end of it now. My guess is that we have
:26:36. > :26:43.probably got enough at the current rate for about another two years,
:26:43. > :26:48.before she's penniless. Diana has been in a care home since
:26:48. > :26:52.2005. The cost of �300,000, has been met by the sale of her home.
:26:52. > :26:56.It's this situation, affecting tens of thousands of elderly people
:26:56. > :27:02.every year, that has forced the Government to announce what it
:27:02. > :27:07.calls a new era of support. From April 2017, an individual's
:27:07. > :27:14.social care costs will be capped at �75,000. Those in nursing homes
:27:14. > :27:19.will still pay up to �12,000 in bed and board charges. Those with
:27:19. > :27:23.assets below �123,000 will get financial help. The Health
:27:23. > :27:30.Secretary told MPs that while people should contribute to care
:27:30. > :27:32.costs, there had to be a limit. Though it will be greater than the
:27:32. > :27:37.�25,000-�50,000, recommended by an independent commission. We want our
:27:37. > :27:40.country to be one of the best places in the world to grow old.
:27:40. > :27:45.These plans will give certainty and peace of mind about the cost of
:27:45. > :27:48.care, making sure we can all get the support we need, without facing
:27:48. > :27:51.unlimited costs, whiels also ensuring the most support goes to
:27:51. > :27:54.those -- whilst also ensuring the most support goes to those with the
:27:55. > :28:00.greatest need. This is the sort of active old age everyone hopes for,
:28:00. > :28:03.in reality an estimated one in ten will face care costs of more than
:28:03. > :28:07.�100,000. Today's announcement should take the pressure off them.
:28:07. > :28:11.But Labour believes more is needed. We have seen a doubling in the
:28:11. > :28:16.number of older people being readmitted to hospital, over the
:28:16. > :28:19.last ten years. The NHS spends �18 million a month on delayed
:28:19. > :28:23.discharges from hospital, because people can't get the right care and
:28:23. > :28:27.support at home. That's not good for elderly people, and it is not
:28:27. > :28:30.good use of tax-payers' money. We need a much bigger and more radical
:28:30. > :28:34.transformation, if we are really going to meet the needs of an
:28:34. > :28:39.ageing population. The Government wants to give this
:28:39. > :28:43.population certainty, so they can plan and eninsure themselves to
:28:43. > :28:49.cover the �75,000 worth of care. Campaigners say the changes are
:28:49. > :28:55.welcome, but don't address the here and now. These proposelias will
:28:55. > :29:00.only deal with the care problems that arise in the future. They do
:29:00. > :29:03.nothing to help people -- proposals will only deal with the care
:29:03. > :29:07.problems that arise in the future. They don't help those already
:29:07. > :29:11.paying for care, and they won't improve the standards and quality
:29:11. > :29:16.of care. On their own they don't deal with any of the short-term
:29:16. > :29:21.problems but they will help put in place a better framework for the
:29:21. > :29:24.long-term. The reforms that might have spared Mike Golding from
:29:24. > :29:29.selling his mother's house will cost a billion pounds. This will be
:29:29. > :29:32.covered by a mixture of national insurance payments, and a new U-
:29:32. > :29:36.turn, abandoning by the roadside one of the Conservative Party's
:29:36. > :29:42.more popular pledges. The next Conservative Government will raise
:29:42. > :29:48.the inheritance tax threshold to �1 million. When George Osborne wowed
:29:48. > :29:52.the Tories by promising to raise the threshold for interance tax, he
:29:52. > :29:59.appeared d inheritance tax he appeared to walk on political water.
:29:59. > :30:02.It left Prime Minister Brown wading through PR accused of snapping the
:30:02. > :30:06.heels of the election. Now he will put off that decision for another
:30:06. > :30:09.three years, infuriating his backbenchers. This is the yellow
:30:09. > :30:13.peril, the Liberal Democrats in the coalition saying well you are not
:30:13. > :30:16.going to get the social care package. We will veto it unless you
:30:16. > :30:19.agree to make more people pay inheritance tax, it is clearly a
:30:19. > :30:22.problem of coalition Government. Clearly if you had a Conservative
:30:22. > :30:26.Government, and George Osborne was Chancellor of a Conservative
:30:26. > :30:29.Government, no way would this be the solution to paying for social
:30:29. > :30:34.care. For such backbenchers it is the curse of coalition politics,
:30:34. > :30:38.but the Government is putting it down to the reality of an ageing
:30:38. > :30:42.and needful population. For its plans to be sustainable, attitudes
:30:42. > :30:46.must change. So we are being told that social care costs must be
:30:46. > :30:50.planned for, in the same way as pensions.
:30:50. > :30:56.It is a shift towards greater individual responsibility. As more
:30:56. > :31:00.of us get older, with greater numbers suffering dementia, such a
:31:01. > :31:05.change is considered inevitable. Earlier tonight I talked with the
:31:05. > :31:09.Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, about his proposal, and some of the
:31:09. > :31:13.criticisms. It is a very big forward, but we have to recognise
:31:13. > :31:18.that with the financial circumstances as they are, we can't
:31:18. > :31:21.afford to get that cap quite as low as we might have liked. The fact
:31:21. > :31:25.that we have got it means for the first time there is certainty in
:31:25. > :31:30.the system. And people can make provision for their social care
:31:30. > :31:34.cost, and we can avoid the -- costs, and we can avoid a double tragedy,
:31:34. > :31:38.that somebody gets a condition like dementia, and they find as well as
:31:38. > :31:40.having to cope with all the pressures of the debilitating
:31:41. > :31:43.disease, they also have to sell their house. That is what we are
:31:43. > :31:47.trying to stop. You are talking about certainty, yet you would
:31:47. > :31:49.accept there is still a great deal of uncertainty about the cost of
:31:49. > :31:52.accommodation and food, which is not covered. And people may still
:31:52. > :31:56.have to sell their homes, but perhaps not as quickly as before?
:31:56. > :32:02.Not at all, the point of these proposals is no-one has to sell
:32:02. > :32:05.their homes. The reason for that is because by setting an upper limit,
:32:05. > :32:09.people can make provision for the maximum amount they will have to
:32:09. > :32:14.pay. They can include that in their pension plans, just like they plan
:32:14. > :32:18.for an annuity, a lump sum when they retire, they can make
:32:18. > :32:22.provision for the amount they might have to pay for their care costs.
:32:22. > :32:26.If you would like to do a bit more, but we can't afford it as a nation,
:32:26. > :32:31.why not scrap free bus passes, TV licenses and Winter Fuel Payments
:32:31. > :32:35.to the richer pensioners to help you along the route, they don't
:32:35. > :32:38.need the money, and the people you are talking about do need the money.
:32:38. > :32:43.The Prime Minister made a firm commitment in the run up to the
:32:43. > :32:47.last election that he would protect pensioner benefits. We looked at
:32:47. > :32:51.all options when looking at how to fund it, we decided this is the
:32:51. > :32:54.right way of doing it. If we had done something else that had cost
:32:55. > :32:59.many billions of pounds more, people would have said how are you
:32:59. > :33:01.taking on these extra liabilities at a time when we are reducing the
:33:01. > :33:04.deficit. That would have been the tone of the questions. What I have
:33:04. > :33:08.announced today is going to cost an extra billion pounds a year by the
:33:08. > :33:12.end of the next parliament, that is a significant amount of money by
:33:12. > :33:17.anyone's calculation. It's going to create the certainty we need,
:33:17. > :33:20.whilst also helping a lot of people, particularly the people who have
:33:20. > :33:25.worked hard, and saved hard, done the right thing for all their lives,
:33:25. > :33:29.paid off their mortgage, but then found that everything they have
:33:29. > :33:34.worked for all their lives is at risk. This allows them a way of
:33:34. > :33:38.removing that risk, that is why it is a big step. Indeed, but you said,
:33:38. > :33:43.the Prime Minister made a pretty solemn manifesto commitment about
:33:43. > :33:47.the bus passes and TV licenses and so on, there was also a commitment
:33:47. > :33:51.to raise the inheritance tax threshold to �1 million. You won't
:33:51. > :33:57.meet the commitment in order to pay for it. One commitment is
:33:57. > :34:00.sacrosanct, and the other isn't? Not at all, first of all that
:34:00. > :34:03.commitment on inheritance tax was a Conservative manifesto commitment,
:34:03. > :34:06.it is not in the coalition agreement. There is an important
:34:06. > :34:10.difference, we are in a coalition. The reason we made that commitment
:34:10. > :34:13.as Conservatives is because we want to help people, who have worked all
:34:13. > :34:18.their lives, protect their inheritance. Today's announcement
:34:18. > :34:23.is about helping people protect that very inheritance, against the
:34:23. > :34:27.lottery of care costs. 10% of us are going to end up spending more
:34:27. > :34:31.than �100,000 on our care costs, and we don't know if we are in that
:34:31. > :34:35.10% or not. It is completely random whether everything you have worked
:34:35. > :34:39.at for your whole life is going to get wiped out, because you are
:34:39. > :34:45.unlucky enough to get dementia and to have very high social care costs.
:34:45. > :34:49.With respect, the acomdaix and food costs are not covered, therefore --
:34:49. > :34:53.accommodation and food costs are not covered, and therefore there
:34:53. > :34:56.will always be a covering of those? You have to pay the accommodation
:34:56. > :35:02.and food costs now any way, you would have had to pay those costs
:35:02. > :35:04.if you had been living in home and not residential care. It is a lot
:35:04. > :35:08.more expensive than living in your own home that you have already paid
:35:08. > :35:11.for? You continue to get your pension and the other things you
:35:11. > :35:14.need, if you are not getting enough money you will get additional
:35:14. > :35:18.support. The reason why we have included that provision, we think
:35:18. > :35:21.it would be wrong to have a system where you are better off going into
:35:21. > :35:25.residential care than staying at home. That is why I think it is
:35:25. > :35:29.important that you make a separate provision for accommodation and
:35:29. > :35:33.food costs. We have done that on the basis of that being around
:35:33. > :35:37.�1,000 a month, at 2017/18 prices. Do you wish the economy were in
:35:37. > :35:41.such a state that you could have said the threshold was �50,000?
:35:41. > :35:45.is up to future Governments to look at these things when we have paid
:35:45. > :35:48.off the deficit. But I think we have to recognise that in very,
:35:49. > :35:52.very difficult financial circumstances, we have created
:35:52. > :35:56.something that will help many, many people. Even the people who don't
:35:56. > :35:59.get the direct financial help, will get the certainty to plan and make
:35:59. > :36:04.provision. It is a bold thing, we will be one of the first countries
:36:04. > :36:07.in the world, perhaps "it" first country in the world to introduce a
:36:08. > :36:12.reform of this magnitude. But we had the previous Government that
:36:12. > :36:15.sat on this issue for 13 years, we have acted, and despite the
:36:15. > :36:18.incredible challenge of that budget deficit, we have found the
:36:18. > :36:26.resources to fund this properly. I think it is a day that we can all
:36:26. > :36:30.cheer. She called herself the Fleet Street
:36:30. > :36:33.Fox, tweeting and blogging anonymously, some would say bitchly,
:36:33. > :36:37.she found a considerable following on the Internet. Some of her
:36:37. > :36:47.targets thought she was just awful. That seemed to at to her followers,
:36:47. > :36:49.
:36:49. > :36:53.now Susie Bonneface has outed herself. We wondered if talking
:36:53. > :36:57.about her style would talk about the death of traditional newspapers.
:36:57. > :37:02.The she was the Fleet Street insider that amassed 50,000
:37:02. > :37:08.followers by blogging tabloid style about the daily news. When she
:37:08. > :37:14.began it was under the nom de guerre of Fleet Street Fox, some
:37:14. > :37:21.were loving it and some hated it. She was involved in high-profile
:37:21. > :37:25.spats that led to her to be nearly identified. As Fleet Street Fox,
:37:25. > :37:29.she was happy to defend the principle of phone hacking, arguing
:37:29. > :37:35.it would be justifiable if you heard that Andy Coulson had left a
:37:35. > :37:38.voicemail for Michael Brooks, in which they admitted they knew about
:37:38. > :37:41.-- Rebecca Brooks, and admitted they knew about it. It comes down
:37:41. > :37:47.to personal judgment, but journalists are expected by the
:37:47. > :37:51.reader as much as their employers to do things no-one else would.
:37:51. > :37:55.These are tough times for traditional print media, almost all
:37:55. > :37:59.national newspapers are losing circulation year on year. The
:37:59. > :38:03.Financial Times editor, recently announced plans to cut jobs at the
:38:03. > :38:08.paper. As part of a move to focus more resources on-line. Saying from
:38:08. > :38:12.now on, the digital output came before the newspaper.
:38:12. > :38:16.There is more upheaval ahead for newspapers this week. Tomorrow,
:38:16. > :38:20.Conservative minister, Oliver Letwin, will set out his party's
:38:20. > :38:24.plans to create an independent press regulator, backed by a royal
:38:24. > :38:29.charter. Both Labour and the Liberal Democrats want a tougher
:38:29. > :38:33.regime, statutory underpinning of press laws, proposed by Lord
:38:33. > :38:37.Justice Leveson, after his report into media ethic. They will all
:38:37. > :38:39.meet to thrash out their differences, already it is looking
:38:39. > :38:47.as though reaching agreement will be tricky.
:38:47. > :38:51.My guests are here. What intrigues me, who reads you
:38:51. > :38:55.on-line, who is your market, is it the same people who read the Mirror
:38:55. > :38:58.or other Sunday newspapers? shouldn't think so. The one thing I
:38:58. > :39:02.have learned from doing the blogging, which is something I
:39:02. > :39:05.found out about as you go along, there is an entirely different
:39:05. > :39:09.audience on-line. It is one of the things facing newspapers today. On-
:39:09. > :39:13.line you are looking at a market which is 18-35-year-olds, they have
:39:13. > :39:16.access to smartphones, they are used to instant news and reaction.
:39:16. > :39:20.Where as in the newspapers you are looking at people who are over 35,
:39:20. > :39:23.and want things in their hands. It is an entirely different market
:39:23. > :39:27.place. It is quite interesting with all the hand wringing about the
:39:27. > :39:31.ethical standards s or lack of them in newspapers, that there is room
:39:31. > :39:33.for stuff which there is no editor you have to go through, you can do
:39:33. > :39:37.it anonymously, the press complaints commission have no
:39:37. > :39:42.leverage on what you write. It is a completely different world? That is
:39:42. > :39:47.the basic problem that Leveson had, there was a free for all, to some
:39:47. > :39:50.extent, on-line, but the reason that some people are more trusted
:39:51. > :39:54.than others, some newspaper websites are more trusted than
:39:54. > :39:57.others, or some other bloggers, is they have a reputation that has
:39:57. > :40:02.been built up over time, for whatever it is that they provide
:40:02. > :40:06.best. People judge things on that basis. Is it liberating for you,
:40:06. > :40:11.you can do what you want? Yeah, I have been a newspaper reporter
:40:11. > :40:15.since I was 18 years old. I have not been able to express a personal
:40:15. > :40:18.opinion about any of the things I see in the news around me or the
:40:18. > :40:22.amazing people I have met or the things I have seen behind the
:40:23. > :40:26.scenes knocking on doors, since I was 18, I wanted to write a blog to
:40:26. > :40:30.tell people all the stuff I'm not able to in a newspaper. Is this
:40:30. > :40:34.part of the future, and something we will come on to in a moment,
:40:34. > :40:38.that the newspaper review will be old hat? It has to be. Everyone is
:40:38. > :40:41.moving to digital. There might still be newspapers, but you only
:40:41. > :40:45.have to look at the announcement from the FT, we have had the
:40:45. > :40:49.Guardian, we have our own plans at the Independent, everyone is moving
:40:49. > :40:54.on-line, and putting more and more resources on-line. It is inevitable
:40:54. > :40:58.really. Do you think it changes the nature of journalism, and maybe
:40:58. > :41:02.people, particularly younger people, as Susie suggests, don't want to
:41:02. > :41:06.think something goes through an editor, a proprietor, some kind of
:41:06. > :41:11.process, they don't like that. is certainly true. If you look
:41:11. > :41:16.where people get their news from, a lot of them get it from Twitter and
:41:16. > :41:19.Facebook. I think we still have brands that people want. There is a
:41:19. > :41:23.reputation there. There is an element of trust, so there is two
:41:23. > :41:29.audiences, really, there is some people who want gossip and tittle
:41:29. > :41:32.tattle, they want a view, what Fleet Street Fox did is give a view.
:41:32. > :41:35.That is perfectly fine. But if you are reporting factual news, you
:41:36. > :41:41.want to know that somebody has checked it and had a look at it,
:41:41. > :41:44.and there is an element of trust there. That is what we do. Do you
:41:44. > :41:49.think on-line newspapers would lose their influence, because there is
:41:49. > :41:52.something about the written paper in your hand? That says it is
:41:52. > :41:57.important. Where as Twitter is here today and gone tomorrow, and some
:41:57. > :42:00.of the internet stuff is not reliable, you lose your brand
:42:00. > :42:04.identity? It is a discussion we have all the time, all newspapers
:42:04. > :42:09.do. They must do, there can't be a newspaper anywhere in the world
:42:09. > :42:13.that hasn't had this discussion in their offices. What we feel is we
:42:13. > :42:21.would lose presence, we wouldn't be read out on this programme or the
:42:21. > :42:25.Today Programme. You just cease to be and move into the ether. That
:42:25. > :42:29.may be wrong, that things are moving so quickly I might be out of
:42:29. > :42:32.date. Nobody knows anything, as we discover night after night! It
:42:32. > :42:35.might be delightful to do it, but it is difficult to make money out
:42:35. > :42:39.of it T you said you are writing a book, that will make money, you
:42:39. > :42:42.have outed yourself, that might make you money, but doing tweeting
:42:42. > :42:47.and blogging don't make money? Neither make money. I have managed
:42:47. > :42:51.to create it as a shop window, I have got work as a result of it,
:42:51. > :42:55.and got my book deal as a result of Twitter and the blogging.
:42:55. > :42:59.Interesting you do lose some of our reputation if you don't have
:42:59. > :43:02.something substantial in your hand. I'm in my mid-30s, I prefer holding
:43:02. > :43:07.a newspaper than watch it on-line. You have two different market
:43:07. > :43:12.places and you can supply both of them, the Internet will make more
:43:12. > :43:17.money when people start cracking that it will pay for the print
:43:17. > :43:21.editions. Do you think it increases or decreases the chances of bad
:43:21. > :43:25.practices, or is Leveson bolting a stable door when nobody cares about
:43:25. > :43:29.that particular horse. I think Leveson is a reaction to an old
:43:30. > :43:37.world to an old world problem. There are new problems out there
:43:37. > :43:43.no-one has redress. We need to find a way to make the Internet pay,
:43:43. > :43:46.make contempt and behaviour on the Internet be regulated. And getting
:43:46. > :43:49.people to sue the Internet when they get round to it doesn't make
:43:49. > :43:53.it a safe place to be. I have talked to a lot of newspaper editor,
:43:53. > :43:56.they all have the same bemused expression, they all know the
:43:56. > :44:01.issues and discuss them, nobody knows the answer. Do you have a pay
:44:01. > :44:08.wall, do you not, do you have a mini version of your newspaper,
:44:08. > :44:18.what do you do? I think you have to have multiplatform. That is jargon,
:44:18. > :44:22.you have your paid-for paper, your British paper, we have the "I", you
:44:22. > :44:25.have your iPad app, the more flat forms you have, the more ways you
:44:26. > :44:35.can make money on advertising. Something Mike work? Suck it and
:44:36. > :45:11.
:45:11. > :45:14.see. Let's look at some of the dead That's all from us, in a programme
:45:14. > :45:19.that touched upon the Bible at the beginning, we thought we might end
:45:19. > :45:23.with the original writing on the wall from biblical times. "you have
:45:23. > :45:26.been weighed in the balance and found wanting". Here is what
:45:27. > :45:31.happened when some modern writing on a ball kept reappearing, despite
:45:31. > :45:41.the best efforts of someone to paint over it. Since we saw all
:45:41. > :46:12.
:46:12. > :46:15.this on the Internet, there is at Hello there. A quiet but cold theme
:46:15. > :46:18.to Tuesday's weather, things will start to change from Wednesday on
:46:18. > :46:22.wards. Early morning sleet and snow showers across parts of Wales and
:46:22. > :46:26.up into the north-east, will fizzle away not amounting to too much at
:46:26. > :46:31.all. Leaving a cloudy grey afternoon in prospect, still the
:46:31. > :46:35.potential for a few isolated swintry showers on the North Sea
:46:35. > :46:39.facing coast. Temperatures struggle, maximum of two or three. Milder
:46:39. > :46:43.further south and west, maybe a bit of brightness if you are lucky. Any
:46:44. > :46:48.sunny spells will be pretty short lived, and a premium I suspect. Up
:46:49. > :46:52.into much of Wales, some brightness in the far north. Elsewhere cloudy
:46:52. > :46:55.and write, with three or four degrees the high. The quiet theme
:46:55. > :46:59.continues into Northern Ireland. If you are lucky brightness in the
:46:59. > :47:03.afternoon, a similar story for much of western Scotland. Here the best
:47:03. > :47:07.chance of seeing any sunshine. Always along the North Sea facing
:47:07. > :47:10.coasts a few wintery showers. It is a cloudy, quiet, but coolish theme
:47:10. > :47:15.to the north of the country on Tuesday. All change on Wednesday,
:47:15. > :47:18.we will have some snow for a and then it turns to rain and a milder
:47:18. > :47:22.feel starts to move through. Similar for England and Wales,