:00:13. > :00:18.Tonight, a big blow to the Government's flagship back to work
:00:18. > :00:22.scheme. A Court of Appeal declares the way it has been organised is
:00:23. > :00:28.unlawful. You can't be made to work for no
:00:28. > :00:33.pay without being told your rights to refuse and appeal. Today an
:00:33. > :00:36.unemployed graduate won our challenge to being owe bliepbled to
:00:36. > :00:40.work at Poundland, what about the others. What about those thrown off
:00:40. > :00:45.benefits because they didn't do the volumity work they were required to
:00:45. > :00:49.do. They may have compensation claims. Why hasn't the Employment
:00:49. > :00:54.Minister been running a work experience programme within the law.
:00:54. > :00:58.Last tonight, the murder of PC Yvonne Fletcher in London in 1984,
:00:58. > :01:03.by agents of the Gaddafi regime. The real targets, anti-Gaddafi
:01:03. > :01:06.protestors, they speak out for the first time. I like justice, an
:01:06. > :01:12.innocent young woman doing her duty got killed.
:01:12. > :01:15.The horse meat scandal at home in Britain. This time it's a Yorkshire
:01:15. > :01:19.slaughterhouse and a west Wales food processing plant. Raiding on
:01:19. > :01:21.suspicion of passing off horse as beef. The minister says he's
:01:21. > :01:31.shocked, we will ask his Labour shadow, whether she trusts mince
:01:31. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:36.now. North Korea stages another nuclear bomb test which is
:01:36. > :01:46.described as provocative, is East Asia becoming the world's most
:01:46. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :01:56.dangerous flash point. Good evening, Cait Reilly, a university graduate,
:01:56. > :01:59.who work at Poundland for no pay to keep her state benefit has won her
:01:59. > :02:02.court case, which is seen as a major blow to the way the
:02:02. > :02:05.Government run their back to work scheme. Cait Reilly claimed that
:02:05. > :02:09.all those who have been striped of benefits have a right to claim
:02:09. > :02:14.their mn money back, since it was taken -- their money back, since it
:02:14. > :02:24.was taken from them unlawfully we will hear from the minister in a
:02:24. > :02:25.
:02:25. > :02:29.moment. The Government's back to work
:02:29. > :02:35.schemes had been compared by some of their harshest critic, to little
:02:35. > :02:38.more than the kind of slavery depicted in the film Metropilis,
:02:38. > :02:42.where skilled but unemployed people were forced to do unpaid work,
:02:42. > :02:46.which they didn't want and was no use to their career.
:02:46. > :02:51.A lightninging rod for the issue was a 24-year-old geology graduate,
:02:51. > :02:55.Cait Reilly, who was told to work, without pay, in Poundland for a
:02:55. > :02:58.fortnight. She claimed it was akin to forced labour. I have brought
:02:58. > :03:02.this case because I knew it was wrong when I was prevented from
:03:02. > :03:08.doing my voluntary work in a you museum, and forced to work -- in a
:03:08. > :03:11.museum and forced today work in Poundland for free. Those two weeks
:03:11. > :03:15.were a complete waste of time and the experience didn't help get a
:03:15. > :03:21.job. I was given no training, and I was left with no time to do
:03:21. > :03:25.voluntary work or search for jobs. The only beneficiary was Poundland,
:03:25. > :03:29.a multibillion pound company. Although the Court of Appeal found
:03:29. > :03:34.the law underpinning the programme was unlawful, the principle of
:03:34. > :03:38.being asked to work for free, in order to get benefits, ufs fully
:03:38. > :03:43.upheld. It is -- Was fully upheld. It is important to understand what
:03:43. > :03:51.the court did and didn't fine, it didn't find that forcing people to
:03:51. > :03:57.work or lose their benefits breaks human rights law. That would be
:03:57. > :04:01.forced labour or slavery, and this was not. Parliament did not tell
:04:01. > :04:05.the court in detail what the schemes entail. Parliament didn't
:04:05. > :04:10.get the opportunity to debate those schemes. These are the seven
:04:10. > :04:14.schemes affected by today's ruling, which are designed to help those on
:04:14. > :04:18.jobseeker's allowance to get back into the work force. Around 130,000
:04:18. > :04:21.people have already been sanctioned in some way for refusinging to work
:04:21. > :04:24.on one of these schemes, including being striped of their benefits
:04:24. > :04:28.entirely. If today's judgment is upheld in the Supreme Court, it
:04:28. > :04:33.could force the Government to repay millions of pounds to thousands of
:04:33. > :04:35.unemployed people. What about people who were thrown
:04:35. > :04:41.off benefits because they didn't do the voluntary work they were
:04:41. > :04:45.required to do. Well, they may have compensation claims, because the
:04:45. > :04:49.legal authority under which that happened, didn't exist, in reality.
:04:49. > :04:53.And the TUC says it's time the goiplt Government got back to the
:04:53. > :04:58.drawing board, to design -- the Government got back to the drawing
:04:58. > :05:00.board to design a waterproof scheme to people off the dole. We are
:05:00. > :05:05.supportive of schemes that get people back into work, and we think
:05:05. > :05:08.there is a role for good-quality work experience within the benefits
:05:08. > :05:12.system. We think there is a need for those claiming benefits to take
:05:12. > :05:15.action and find jobs, and if they are offered real paid work to take
:05:15. > :05:18.it. Nobody is arguing for people to be able to turn down real offers of
:05:18. > :05:22.paid work. What we are arguing against is schemes that require
:05:22. > :05:28.people to participate in unpaid work, in return for their benefits.
:05:28. > :05:32.This case also highlights that for many people their chosen career
:05:32. > :05:35.path and what the British economy can offer them are moving in
:05:35. > :05:39.different directions. In you are trained geology, archaeologist or
:05:39. > :05:41.journalist, big British business may not be beating a path to your
:05:41. > :05:46.door to offer you a work placement. This raise the question as to
:05:46. > :05:50.whether we are training people in career paths for which there are
:05:50. > :05:53.very few jobs. What's interesting is, who wants the really focused
:05:53. > :05:56.careers? Is it the individual or economy? If the economy wants it
:05:56. > :06:00.they will fund them. I think it is up to universities and business to
:06:00. > :06:04.work together to say we do need more geologists, we need
:06:04. > :06:07.archaeologists, whatever it happens to be, and make sure funding is in
:06:07. > :06:11.place for those individuals so, they can move through
:06:11. > :06:14.apprenticeships and internships and into industry. The Government is
:06:14. > :06:17.there to educate most of us with the mass of skills for the broad
:06:17. > :06:21.economy. And the higher education system does that broadly very well.
:06:21. > :06:26.You have to be prepared to take the jobs on offer.
:06:26. > :06:30.And now the lawyers are busy again, as the Government immediately
:06:30. > :06:35.introduced new rules, allowing she is unpaid back-to-work schemes to
:06:35. > :06:40.continue operating, whilst it appeals to the Supreme Court.
:06:40. > :06:42.The Employment Minister is with me. Minister, why has your department
:06:43. > :06:45.within so incompetent it can't even run the scheme? The court today has
:06:45. > :06:50.been very clear. That we can require people looking for work to
:06:50. > :06:52.take part in schemes like this, schemes that will help people get
:06:53. > :06:56.back into the labour market. Where the difference of opinion between
:06:56. > :06:59.ourselves and the court was how much detail there should be in
:06:59. > :07:02.regulation. We don't agree with the court's view. We think we should
:07:02. > :07:06.have the capacity to be flexible, to be creative and look at new ways
:07:06. > :07:09.to help people into work. But we respect the cower, we will appeal
:07:09. > :07:13.against it, in the meantime we have laid regulations today to make sure
:07:13. > :07:16.it is business as usual, and make sure we get people on to courses to
:07:16. > :07:20.help them into work. It is not just a difference of opinion, the Court
:07:20. > :07:25.of Appeal has found that a central scheme for this Government, getting
:07:25. > :07:31.people back to work, and using the methods you have is wrong and
:07:31. > :07:35.unlawful? No it has quashed the regulations t hasn't said we can't
:07:35. > :07:38.do it. That is like saying they agreed today is Tuesday, it said
:07:38. > :07:42.any scheme is as such as authorised by parliament and this wasn't, in
:07:42. > :07:45.their opinion? They wanted more detail in the regulations than we
:07:45. > :07:49.had allowed for. We're going to make sure the regulations are in
:07:49. > :07:55.place to do that. Why didn't you do that? What we need to recognise is
:07:55. > :07:59.that people have different needs about how to get into work. Sorry.
:07:59. > :08:03.This is an important point. course it is, but the real point is
:08:03. > :08:06.how you were so incompetent, why were you so incompetent in doing
:08:06. > :08:10.it? Because what we felt was important was to have the
:08:10. > :08:14.flexibility to design schemes to help people back into work, rather
:08:14. > :08:17.than have the unprescribeed regulation set out in fine detail.
:08:17. > :08:20.We have to respond quickly to what is happening in the labour market
:08:20. > :08:25.and find work. Fine detail is telling parliament what you are
:08:25. > :08:29.going to do and have parliamentary authorisation, such as authorised
:08:29. > :08:32.by parliament, this is not a legal hiccup it is a major blow? It is
:08:33. > :08:37.not a major blow. What is happening as a consequence of the regulations
:08:37. > :08:41.laid to is business as usual. Job centres refer people on to the work
:08:41. > :08:44.programme and on to schemes that help people get the experience that
:08:44. > :08:49.they need to get back into work. The fundamental point at the heart
:08:49. > :08:52.of the debate is was this forced labour, were people being forceded
:08:52. > :08:55.into slavery. That was another issue? This is hardly a vindication
:08:55. > :08:58.of you, to be declared by the Court of Appeal that you operated a
:08:58. > :09:01.scheme in which the regulations were unlawful, is not a
:09:01. > :09:05.vindication? I think it is right for the taxpayer to expect that
:09:05. > :09:07.people are looking for work accept the help we offer them. That is at
:09:07. > :09:10.the heart of it. There is a difference of opinion about how
:09:10. > :09:13.much detail should be in regulation. We have tackled that, and that is
:09:13. > :09:17.why people will be back on the schemes. We do need to give people
:09:17. > :09:20.the help they need to get back into work. This is what we are aiming to
:09:20. > :09:24.do. How much provision have you made in terms of how much public
:09:24. > :09:27.money you are going to have to spend to the 130,000 people that
:09:27. > :09:30.your department says, who have been sanctioned on various schemes,
:09:30. > :09:33.which have now been found to be unlawful? I don't think the tax-
:09:33. > :09:37.payers expect anyone who has broken the rules to get repaid benefits
:09:37. > :09:40.money. You have made no provision? We are very clear that people
:09:40. > :09:43.should be taking part in these schemes F they don't take part in
:09:43. > :09:46.the schemes they have broken their contract with the Government and
:09:46. > :09:52.the tax-payers. It helps them back into work. We do not believe it is
:09:52. > :09:55.appropriate to repay this money. Two people have won their cases of
:09:55. > :09:59.the 129, 998, they could also make claims against you, couldn't they?
:09:59. > :10:05.That is why I think it is clear and it is not in the tax-payers'
:10:05. > :10:09.interest to repay the money. People who are offered help through these
:10:09. > :10:12.schemes should take that. That is their obligation to other tax-
:10:12. > :10:15.payers funding these schemes. you made no provision whatsoever?
:10:15. > :10:20.What we are doing is appealing against the judgment. We don't
:10:20. > :10:23.think it is right. And we're taking this to the Supreme Court. I think
:10:24. > :10:27.it is an important point to resolve. But I think the fundamental point
:10:27. > :10:30.is this, tax-payers expect people who are offered help to take it f
:10:30. > :10:34.they don't take that help to get into work, then they expect those
:10:34. > :10:39.benefit to be removed. That is an important point, I think. Are you
:10:39. > :10:43.saying Cait Reilly and Jamie Wilson were, basically, workshy? I think
:10:43. > :10:47.there are schemes out there to help people back into work. Were they
:10:47. > :10:53.workshy? Are they scroungers? not saying they are scroungers, I'm
:10:53. > :10:56.saying when we offer help we expect people to take it. Miss Reilly said
:10:56. > :11:02.it was a complete waste of time as the experience did not help her get
:11:02. > :11:06.a job. Mr Wilson said he knew it wouldn't help find employment? You
:11:06. > :11:09.want to offer help, but you are offering help they say isn't
:11:09. > :11:13.working for them? That is perfectly reasonable for them to say that?
:11:13. > :11:18.What do people need to get back into work. They say, not what you
:11:18. > :11:20.gave them. I say we need to give people help, that is why we have
:11:20. > :11:23.tailored, personalised support to help people back into work.
:11:24. > :11:32.Sometimes it is a lack of experience on a CV is a barrier to
:11:32. > :11:36.get them into work. So stacking shelves in Poundland and cleaning
:11:36. > :11:40.cars is what graduateed need? Somebody who has demonstrated an
:11:40. > :11:45.ability to turn up on time, knowing what it is like to be employed and
:11:45. > :11:47.part of a team. The work experience we offer helps that. These are
:11:47. > :11:50.effective schemes for getting people back into work. I don't
:11:50. > :11:54.think people should be allowed to turn the schemes down if they are
:11:54. > :11:58.looking for work. Many people will agree but, the courts want you to
:11:58. > :12:01.do it correctly and you accept that point? We will appeal that point.
:12:01. > :12:11.There are doubts over the prove fishcy of some of the private
:12:11. > :12:12.
:12:12. > :12:16.agencies, A -- proficient sis, A 4. E, for example, and only 3.5% of
:12:16. > :12:21.those in place stayed long enough to get the payment. You would
:12:21. > :12:25.expect it to be 5%. You are doing something? 200,000 people found
:12:25. > :12:31.work through the work programme in the first few months. 3.5% of the
:12:31. > :12:36.people, not 5%? The people on the work programme have been without
:12:36. > :12:38.work for over a year. There is real barriers to tackle. Through the
:12:38. > :12:42.work programme we have personalised support. I don't think it is right
:12:42. > :12:47.for people to feel free to turn down these schemes to say they
:12:47. > :12:54.don't want to be part of that, and expect the taxpayer to pick up the
:12:54. > :12:57.deal bill, tax-payers expect people to look for work and accept the
:12:57. > :13:01.help we give them. In a moment, what's in the burgers
:13:01. > :13:11.and kebabs you have been eating, now British processors have been
:13:11. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:18.raided. First, among the many forgotten victims of Muammar
:13:18. > :13:22.Gaddafi's dictatorship in Libya, are those in the embassy shootings
:13:22. > :13:27.in Britain, Yvonne Fletcher was killed. The 11 anti-protestors hit
:13:27. > :13:31.that day have remained silent for fear of reprisals, with Gaddafi
:13:31. > :13:37.gone, they are able to tell the story for the first time. Two have
:13:37. > :13:41.spoken to Newsnight's Glenn Campbell.
:13:41. > :13:47.It is just like it happened yesterday. I feel like the whole
:13:47. > :13:57.thing is a dream. I remember it every day of my life, I was facing
:13:57. > :13:58.
:13:58. > :14:02.death here. I could be dead the same day as Yvonne Fletcher died.
:14:02. > :14:07.Peaceful protest is part of every day life in London. And policing
:14:07. > :14:11.demonstrations like this is a matter of routine for the
:14:11. > :14:17.Metropolitan force, but it was at a demonstration of about this size,
:14:17. > :14:21.here in St James's square, that Yvonne Fletcher was killed and 11
:14:21. > :14:31.others wounded. And 30 years on, the case is still open, because no-
:14:31. > :14:36.one has ever been brought to justice. Back in 1984, Colonel
:14:36. > :14:41.Gaddafi was a major exporter of terrorism. He ordered murder of his
:14:41. > :14:44.Libyan opponents throughout the world. It was the Libyan
:14:44. > :14:48.RevolutionyRy Committee's job to hunt down these called stray dogs.
:14:48. > :14:52.By the 17th of April the revolutionaries had taken complete
:14:52. > :14:57.control of the Libyan embassy in London.
:14:57. > :15:01.The night before that fateful day, the British ambassador in Tripoli
:15:01. > :15:04.received a warning. I came back quite late in the evening after
:15:04. > :15:07.dinner to the embassy and found a message saying would I go around
:15:07. > :15:12.immediately to the Foreign Ministry. I went round wondering what the
:15:12. > :15:18.hell was going on. It was midnight. I found one of the senior people in
:15:18. > :15:21.the Foreign Ministry with another man, who I believe was a
:15:21. > :15:24.Revolutionary committee representative, I didn't know him.
:15:24. > :15:27.They told me there was a demonstration outside their office
:15:27. > :15:35.in London the following morning, and I was to get it stopped. And I
:15:35. > :15:38.said, in effect, you must be joking, you have had demonstrations outmy
:15:38. > :15:41.embassy and you protected it and the same thing happens in London.
:15:41. > :15:47.They said this is different and it must be stopped. It must be stopped.
:15:47. > :15:50.And I said there is no way I can stop it. Oliver Miles reported his
:15:50. > :15:54.conversation to London were two Libyan diplomats urged the Foreign
:15:54. > :16:01.Office to stop the demonstration. An arms dealer informed the police
:16:01. > :16:03.of the considerable arsenal inside the Libyan embassy. GCHQ
:16:03. > :16:07.intercepted a telegram from Gaddafi's Government giving orders
:16:07. > :16:11.to use violence, it was not decoded until after the shootings. A worker
:16:11. > :16:16.putting up the barricades was told by another Libyan that they had
:16:16. > :16:20.guns and were intend to go use them. Later, the anti-terrorist squad, C-
:16:20. > :16:27.13, claimed that had they been aware of all this information, they
:16:27. > :16:32.would have cancelled the demo. came here to deliver a very strong
:16:32. > :16:39.message to Gaddafi's regime. The stop the harassment for the
:16:39. > :16:45.political prisoners. Gaddafi kills students! Gaddafi
:16:45. > :16:52.hangs students! The atmosphere was extremely bonderful. We were all
:16:52. > :16:56.heart-to-heart. We were all gathered and with a strong will. We
:16:56. > :17:06.had been calling for this for a long time. We had never bowed down
:17:06. > :17:13.to Gaddafi or his ideas, or his pathetic green book of theories, or
:17:13. > :17:17.the revolution committees. Revolutionary Committee ordered a
:17:17. > :17:21.counter demonstration by Gaddafi supporter, the atmosphere was noisy
:17:21. > :17:25.and tense. Those opposed to the Libyan regime had no idea what was
:17:25. > :17:30.about to happen. I remember Yvonne Fletcher and her great smile. She
:17:30. > :17:34.stood right in front of me. And I stood about, I would say, about
:17:34. > :17:38.here, I was facing the embassy, you know. She stood right in front of
:17:38. > :17:44.me. And she had her hands behind her back like this. I remember her
:17:44. > :17:51.saying good morning, she had a great smile on her face. I remember
:17:51. > :18:01.she was smiling, yeah, she had a smile. And her standing for her
:18:01. > :18:01.
:18:01. > :18:06.duty, basically. Then we just started chanting "down, down to
:18:06. > :18:12.Gaddafi", "stop the killing", things like this. A few seconds
:18:12. > :18:18.later the firing started. (gunfire) We thought it would be a major
:18:18. > :18:22.fight happening between us and them. But to be honest I have never
:18:22. > :18:31.expected it could be a serious machine gun out of beautiful
:18:31. > :18:34.Georgian buildings. I saw her fall when the shot happened. And she was
:18:34. > :18:39.squeezing her stomach. It must have been very painful for her. She was
:18:39. > :18:43.going down. I was looking at her. I remember when I got shot I was very
:18:44. > :18:48.hot. All the demonstrators were falling over each other. When the
:18:48. > :18:51.police were shouting at us to move, because people were piling on top
:18:51. > :18:54.of each other, I tried to move but I fell on the ground, that is when
:18:55. > :18:59.I started shouting to the police, that I had been hit, I had been hit.
:18:59. > :19:06.I remember a couple of guys carrying me, as quickly as they can
:19:06. > :19:13.to safety. There was 11 people shot, and obviously Yvonne Fletcher was
:19:13. > :19:19.12. I would say we were quite lucky because nobody else was skilled.
:19:19. > :19:24.The The men were seriously wounded by sub mn gunfire that police
:19:24. > :19:29.believe came from within the building. Because of fear of
:19:29. > :19:35.reprisals by Gaddafi's henchmen, both have kept quiet until now,
:19:35. > :19:40.both men want to know who attacked them. Those murders were committed
:19:40. > :19:46.by individuals who knew the policy was to rub out oppositionists, and
:19:46. > :19:49.didn't need direct orders to do so. In view of what I have told you
:19:49. > :19:52.about the message made through me to the Foreign Ministry in Tripoli,
:19:52. > :19:56.we can rule that out in the case of Yvonne Fletcher. It must have been
:19:56. > :20:01.ordered from Tripoli, I think. Logically, I don't know now that,
:20:01. > :20:05.but that is what I'm assuming, I deduce from the way that things
:20:05. > :20:09.developed. So that now, you might say we are not just looking for the
:20:09. > :20:13.man who fired the gun, we are looking for the man who ordered him
:20:13. > :20:18.to fire the gun, or the men who did that. It may be that whoever pulled
:20:18. > :20:22.the trigger was allowed to walk away. After an 11-day siege, all
:20:22. > :20:26.Libyan diplomats were thrown out of the country. Britain had no
:20:26. > :20:32.diplomatic relations with Libya for the next 15 years. By the time Tony
:20:33. > :20:35.Blair emed Colonel Gaddafi in 2004, lib -- embraced Colonel Gaddafi in
:20:36. > :20:40.2004, Libya had taken responsibility for Yvonne
:20:40. > :20:44.Fletcher's death and paid compensation to her family. Libya's
:20:44. > :20:48.Prime Minister last year paid his respected at the Yvonne Fletcher
:20:48. > :20:52.memorial, last year, and promised the post-revolutionary authorities
:20:52. > :20:56.would help find her killer. The Metropolitan Police have never
:20:56. > :21:00.forgotten their fallen colleague, officers have visited Libya several
:21:00. > :21:03.times, but have not yet made any arrests.
:21:03. > :21:06.I'm, quite frankly, very disappointed and concerned about
:21:06. > :21:10.the lack of progress that has been made on this issue. Libya has now
:21:10. > :21:15.been a free country forecoming up to two years, and it is very
:21:15. > :21:18.important -- for coming up to two years, and it is very important
:21:19. > :21:22.that our own country gets some immediate feedback from the Libyans
:21:22. > :21:24.as to what files will be opened up, and what access will be given to
:21:24. > :21:28.the Metropolitan Police and others who are still officially
:21:28. > :21:34.investigating this matter. You have to remember that in Libyan eyes
:21:34. > :21:39.this is not a big priority. It obviously is a crime, and there
:21:39. > :21:44.they are ashamed of the fact that a British woman was murdered. No
:21:44. > :21:48.doubt they are ashamed of the fact that Libyans were also injured, and
:21:48. > :21:51.some of those Libyans are now very much respected, and in some cases
:21:51. > :21:57.in positions of authority. There is some drive. But compared with the
:21:57. > :22:04.other crimes which took place under the Gaddafi regime, this is small
:22:04. > :22:07.beer. When Gaddafi's Foreign Minister
:22:07. > :22:10.Moussa Koussa defect today London during the revolution, he was
:22:10. > :22:13.questioned about the Lockerbie bombing, some victims of the
:22:13. > :22:20.embassy shootings believe he can help solve their case too.
:22:20. > :22:24.police don't have to go far, go to Qatar and Jordan to Moussa Koussa,
:22:24. > :22:31.he is the man and knows about this more than anybody else. The one man
:22:31. > :22:36.who may hold the key to who opened fire on the protest outside the
:22:36. > :22:40.embassy is Colonel Gaddafi's former intelligence chief. He's described
:22:40. > :22:44.as the black box of the Gaddafi regime and the crimes it committed.
:22:44. > :22:49.He was extradited from Moritania to Libya, where he's currently
:22:49. > :22:57.languishing in prison. But so far the Metropolitan Police have not
:22:57. > :23:01.been to interview him. The Libyans have one of the best witness, which
:23:01. > :23:08.is Mr Abdullah. We need to find out if he has spoken about this. We
:23:08. > :23:13.need to find out from the Libyan regime if there are steps being
:23:13. > :23:17.taken right now to find out who did it. I think he will be critical. He
:23:17. > :23:22.has spent three decades being the most senior security intelligence
:23:22. > :23:27.chief for Gaddafi. If anybody knows who was behind this, it will be him,
:23:27. > :23:32.it will be him. It is extremely important that the Metropolitan
:23:32. > :23:36.Police are given access to him in prison. The man who is usually
:23:36. > :23:41.regarded as the evil genius of Gaddafi, and who was thought to be
:23:41. > :23:46.responsible for all his crimes, Abdullah Sanusi, if he was
:23:46. > :23:51.responsible for this, they will want to pin the crime on him. But
:23:51. > :23:53.not before they have dealt with the prison massacre in by 1200 Libyans
:23:54. > :24:00.were killed. There were many victims of the Gaddafi regime. But
:24:00. > :24:06.those shot and wounded on a sunny day in St James's square, are tired
:24:06. > :24:09.of -- St James's Square are tired of waiting for justice for
:24:09. > :24:14.themselves and Yvonne Fletcher. angry that nobody has been brought
:24:14. > :24:19.to justice. It has been 28 years, we need it find out who did it.
:24:19. > :24:24.like justice to be implemented. This is a matter of life and death.
:24:24. > :24:31.As a result of that an innocent young woman, doing her duty, got
:24:31. > :24:36.killed for that. I think it has to be justice done.
:24:36. > :24:38.We have further developments, what has been going on? It has emerged
:24:38. > :24:42.that police investigating the embassy shootings have made a
:24:43. > :24:47.fourth visit to Libya, since the revolution. The Metropolitan Police
:24:47. > :24:52.has confirmed that detectives flew to Tripoli on Sunday, and were
:24:52. > :24:55.returning to the UK today, having met with Libyan officials to
:24:55. > :25:00.discuss how a joint investigation into Yvonne Fletcher's murder and
:25:00. > :25:05.the other shootings can be taken forward. Now this follows David
:25:05. > :25:09.Cameron's recent visit to Libya, where he announced new co-operation
:25:09. > :25:13.with the Lockerbie bombing investigation, Downing Street
:25:13. > :25:16.confirming today that he also raised the Fletcher case with his
:25:16. > :25:20.Libyan counterpart. They say they have been getting good co-operation
:25:20. > :25:23.from the new Government in Libya. So whilst there has been many false
:25:23. > :25:29.dawns in this case. I think the Fletcher family, the others who
:25:29. > :25:33.were shot and wounded that day, as the 29th anniversary of the
:25:33. > :25:40.shootings draws nearer, I think they will feel that justice is
:25:40. > :25:44.perhaps more within grasp now than ever before. One of the few
:25:44. > :25:47.consolations about the horse meat scandal has been that British
:25:47. > :25:51.slaughterhouses and meat processing plants were believed not to be
:25:51. > :25:57.involved. In fact, yesterday the National Beef Association suggested
:25:57. > :26:01.stamping the words "United Kingdom origin" on packaging so we could
:26:01. > :26:05.trust what we are eating. Tonight things look a bit different, police
:26:05. > :26:09.and Food Standards Agency officials raided the Peter Boddy Licensed
:26:09. > :26:15.Slaughterhouse in Yorkshire, and Farmbox Meats in west Wales, and
:26:15. > :26:19.the FSA has said horse meat has ended up in burgers and kebabs. The
:26:19. > :26:27.minister, Owen Paterson, was outraged. It is outrageous that we
:26:28. > :26:32.found the meat here. We will be following it up with the full
:26:33. > :26:36.rigour of the powers invested in the Food Standards Agency. If there
:26:36. > :26:40.is criminal activity I expect the police to bring in the full force
:26:40. > :26:47.of the criminal law. We have the details. What actually happened in
:26:47. > :26:52.these raids? Of course, this is an on going investigation, these are
:26:53. > :26:56.allegations not yet proven. Having said that the FSA did confirm to us
:26:56. > :27:00.tonight that they have definitely found horse meat purporting to be
:27:00. > :27:04.beef. They said the agency and the police are looking into the
:27:04. > :27:08.circumstances through which meat products, purporting to be meat for
:27:08. > :27:12.kebabs and burgers were sold when they were horse. They said they
:27:12. > :27:17.raided these two premises, the Peter Boddy Licensed Slaughterhouse
:27:17. > :27:22.in West Yorkshire, Farmbox Meats in Aberystwyth, they have kept all the
:27:22. > :27:25.meat and stopped production at both place, they have seized paperwork
:27:25. > :27:32.including customer lists. They couldn't tell me tonight who is on
:27:32. > :27:35.the customer lists. BBC Wales managed to speak to the owner of
:27:35. > :27:39.Farmbox Meats in Aberystwyth this evening. He says he has been
:27:39. > :27:43.cutting horse meat on the site for about three weeks. And that it
:27:43. > :27:46.comes from a source in Ireland. Now he said the business is perfectly
:27:46. > :27:51.legitimate and above board. The meat goes to a place that is
:27:51. > :27:55.licensed. Though he didn't say where the meat goes. He said he
:27:55. > :27:59.knew nothing about the second plant in Yorkshire, he's now taking legal
:27:59. > :28:05.advice. We tried to contact the plant in West Yorkshire, we
:28:05. > :28:08.couldn't reach anyone for a comment. Now, all of this is going to make
:28:08. > :28:12.things pretty uncomfortable, I think, for Owen Paterson, when he
:28:12. > :28:18.heads to Brussels for a big European meeting on this. They will
:28:18. > :28:22.look at the network of suppliers and agents behind the processed
:28:22. > :28:27.meat supply chain. Spreading across a number of European countries, we
:28:27. > :28:32.now know, this all started, remember, in Ireland, it has spread
:28:32. > :28:36.to include France, the netherlands and Romania, which, until now, had
:28:36. > :28:41.been under the spotlight. So what else have we been learning today?
:28:41. > :28:45.Interestingly today there has been a suggestion from a former head of
:28:45. > :28:51.food authenticity at the FSA, he now works as a food consultant,
:28:51. > :28:56.this is a Dr Mark Wolf, he believes a decision to reclassify a type of
:28:56. > :29:01.minced meat could have played a part in it. It is meat called
:29:01. > :29:08.desinewed meat, which was used widely in the UK supply and value
:29:08. > :29:12.processed meals, the cheaper meals. Last year European rules said this
:29:12. > :29:17.desinewed meat could not any longer be classified as meat content. He
:29:17. > :29:21.says this forced suppliers to look for cheaper sources outside, the
:29:21. > :29:24.FSA says this change is not to blame. The shadow Environment
:29:25. > :29:30.Minister, Mary Creagh, is with me now. This is pretty shocking, isn't
:29:30. > :29:34.it? It is a very dramatic turn of events, until now we thought it
:29:35. > :29:38.could have been a rogue batch in the Irish plant. Then we had the
:29:38. > :29:43.news from Findus that shows it was more widespread across Europe. The
:29:43. > :29:49.news tonight that horse is being passed off as beef in the UK is a
:29:49. > :29:54.very worrying new development. are here as a spokesperson for your
:29:54. > :29:59.father, as a consumer or mother, would you feed mince, burgers or
:29:59. > :30:04.kebabs to your children now? I look for the red tractor mark, that
:30:04. > :30:07.means it is made, slaught, grown in the UK. I have confidence that the
:30:08. > :30:13.audits that are carried out are proper in the red tractor mark.
:30:14. > :30:18.What is not clear, though, is any food system can withstand systemic
:30:18. > :30:23.cim nat adultation. Once might be an accident, twice might be a
:30:23. > :30:27.coincidence, three is starting to look like a pattern. You look for
:30:27. > :30:30.the red tractor mark, if you are buying a burger or something at a
:30:30. > :30:34.store you haven't a clue? If you are a child at school or patient in
:30:34. > :30:37.a hospital or prisoner in a prison, you don't have those choices either.
:30:37. > :30:41.I have been keen to get advice from the minister about what public
:30:41. > :30:45.sector caters should do. That advice came out very late on Sunday
:30:45. > :30:48.night from the FSA, and basically said to schools and hospitals that
:30:48. > :30:51.you have to check with your suppliers. If we don't know if
:30:51. > :30:55.these companies are dodgy, how do we know where to look and take
:30:55. > :30:59.action. I suppose it all comes down to a question of trust. If you go
:30:59. > :31:03.to any of the big supermarket chains, most of us, most of the
:31:04. > :31:06.time trust what they are selling us. Don't they have a responsibility to
:31:06. > :31:09.look at their suppliers, it is not just the Government or the FSA.
:31:09. > :31:13.Surely they have to find out what is in our meat? They do, and they
:31:13. > :31:16.have reassured me, they have told me about the spot checks that they.
:31:16. > :31:21.Do but clearly, the system has broken down, and broken down in a
:31:21. > :31:26.shre big way. Not just the -- very big way. Not just the supermarket
:31:26. > :31:29.system, after this we will have to see random DNA testing in all
:31:29. > :31:32.supermarket lines. That was mentioned in the debate we had in
:31:32. > :31:35.the House of Commons today. Again, if you are going out and having to
:31:35. > :31:39.get a sandwich or something from anywhere, that you can't actually
:31:39. > :31:43.source the meat yourself, what do you trust, do you trust the stuff
:31:43. > :31:47.you are eating? People have to know where they are buying from, and
:31:47. > :31:51.they have to be not afraid to ask questions. We have seen with a
:31:51. > :31:56.spike in local butcher shops over the weekend reporting a big incos
:31:56. > :31:59.in sales as people go back to local butchers who they know and trust
:31:59. > :32:02.That is also a question of money, everybody now is looking for
:32:02. > :32:05.cheaper stuff, because everybody is suffering one way or another,
:32:05. > :32:15.because of hard times. Therefore, you will get more demand for the
:32:15. > :32:19.stuff you can't trace? I think it is a real gross injustice that this
:32:19. > :32:23.systematic adulteration seems to have been perpetuated. People on
:32:23. > :32:27.lowest incomes, pensioners on ready meals, and students with kebabs,
:32:27. > :32:29.people who don't have much money to spend. Some of those families
:32:29. > :32:32.already tipping over into food poverty, they are finding life very
:32:32. > :32:35.difficult. They trust these products and we have to make sure
:32:35. > :32:41.that the system is fit for purpose and can reassure them about what is
:32:41. > :32:45.safe to eat. In a few hours time Barack Obama
:32:45. > :32:48.will do what US Presidents have done for decades, deliver a State
:32:48. > :32:53.of the Union speech, telling Americans their union is strong.
:32:53. > :32:56.There may be some last-minute revisions. North Korea, which has
:32:56. > :33:00.missiles apparent low capable of reaching the continetal United
:33:00. > :33:05.States, has just staged its third nuclear test. President Obama
:33:05. > :33:09.called it provocative and threatening, his outgoing secretary
:33:09. > :33:14.said North Korea was a serious threat to the United States. Is the
:33:14. > :33:19.simple truth we will have to get used to the fact that one of the
:33:19. > :33:25.world's most bizarre regimes has nuclear bombs and capacity to use
:33:26. > :33:30.them, and that East Asia is a dangerous flash point.
:33:30. > :33:34.The Mercury is rising in north Asia, with a combination of nationalist
:33:34. > :33:38.rivalry, high spending on defence, and war-like rhetoric. Now with the
:33:38. > :33:43.situation already tense, North Korea has chosen to flout UN
:33:43. > :33:47.resolutions and mount a nuclear test. There is a recognition that
:33:47. > :33:50.North Korea is getting better at this. This is becoming less of a
:33:50. > :33:55.theoretical threat down the line, and it is something we are going to
:33:55. > :33:59.have to deal with in the near term that we would really not deal with.
:33:59. > :34:06.So, it is real watershed in terms of North Korea technological
:34:06. > :34:11.development, coming after the missile test in December.
:34:11. > :34:14.North Korea announced a successful test of a device smaller and more
:34:14. > :34:19.powerful than those previously tried, and warned the US in advance
:34:19. > :34:25.they were about to do it. That left the international community,
:34:25. > :34:29.notably the UN Security Council, with little choice but swift
:34:29. > :34:36.condemnation. I strongly condemn Pyongyang's reckless act, which
:34:36. > :34:41.shows outright disregard for the repeated call of the international
:34:41. > :34:44.community to refrain from further provocative measures. The test is a
:34:44. > :34:50.clear and grave violation of the relevant resolutions of the
:34:50. > :34:55.Security Council. And the Americans promised more of the punishment
:34:56. > :35:00.that has so far failed to bring North Korea into compliance.
:35:00. > :35:07.address the persistent danger posed by North Korea's threatening
:35:07. > :35:12.activities, the UN Security Council must and will deliver a swift,
:35:12. > :35:17.credible and strong response, by way of a Security Council
:35:17. > :35:26.resolution, that further comes against the ballistic weapons
:35:26. > :35:30.programmes, and its ability to engage in proliferation activities.
:35:30. > :35:33.The underground test has produced regional shockwaves. Neighbouring
:35:33. > :35:38.China condemned it, but retains an interest in the survival of the
:35:38. > :35:41.north Korean regime. There is another problem, chino Japanese
:35:42. > :35:47.tensions over disputed islands are running high. With the United
:35:47. > :35:51.States bound to both South Korea and Japan by defence agreements,
:35:51. > :35:55.that could produce an international crisis. The Washington position,
:35:55. > :36:00.the position of the Obama add mints traigs, has to take into --
:36:00. > :36:03.administration, has to take into account that China is in some way a
:36:03. > :36:08.competitor, but also a potential partner, not only in addressing the
:36:08. > :36:16.problem of North Korea, but other global problems. It can't be seen
:36:16. > :36:20.to be locked into defensiveness against North Korea. But there is a
:36:20. > :36:24.limit to their power and control the domestic agenda in both Japan.
:36:24. > :36:29.Certainly in China and to a degree in South Korea. Therefore, the
:36:29. > :36:33.United States is confronting the limitations of what is often
:36:33. > :36:37.described as its "soft power", its ability to win friends and
:36:37. > :36:41.influence people. Japan's new Prime Minister has raised the stakes in
:36:41. > :36:46.his country's maritime dispute with China over the islands. The scope
:36:46. > :36:51.for miscalculation is all the greater, because of new leaderships
:36:51. > :36:56.in China, Japan, north and South Korea. With Korean or Chinese
:36:56. > :37:00.feelings about Japan still heightened by memories of war time
:37:00. > :37:07.brutality, a region of the world long frozen in Cold War certainties
:37:07. > :37:11.now seems to be entering a period of instability. The situation is so
:37:11. > :37:16.tense now that some have compared it to Europe on the eve of World
:37:16. > :37:20.War I. The risk being, that countries with a history of using
:37:20. > :37:25.provocations to dramatise their concerns, might get it wrong,
:37:25. > :37:29.miscalculate, and spark a conflict drawing in the US and China. The
:37:29. > :37:34.only positive aspect to today's news, is that at least those two
:37:34. > :37:39.great Security Council powers can agree, that North Korea's act is
:37:39. > :37:42.provocative and dangerous. If anything it could be a
:37:42. > :37:49.galvanising opportunity for the region. Because it brings South
:37:49. > :37:57.Korea a little closer with Japan. They want to co-operate more, visa
:37:57. > :38:01.advise North Korea. For China it is in, vis a vis, North Korea. And we
:38:01. > :38:09.are going to take stronger defensive actions against North
:38:09. > :38:15.Korea. For each of China and Japanese, maintaining a balancing
:38:15. > :38:18.act will be tough, as increasingly assertive allies throw down
:38:18. > :38:21.challenges. North Korea's test is the latest, but it certainly won't
:38:21. > :38:24.be the last. Before the end of the programme we will have the front
:38:24. > :38:27.pages. First, at a time when Britain is deliberating whether to
:38:27. > :38:33.leave the European Union, there is one country which has been knocking
:38:33. > :38:37.on the EU's doors for years, without success, Turkey. The
:38:37. > :38:41.British Government has been a big supporter of Turkey joining the EU,
:38:41. > :38:45.and the Turkish minister responsible for negotiations is in
:38:45. > :38:50.London tonight to lobby ministers and MPs. We will hear from him in a
:38:50. > :39:00.moment about why Turkey wants to join a club that has gone through
:39:00. > :39:00.
:39:00. > :39:04.an unhappy few years. Over the past six decades the EU has expanded
:39:04. > :39:09.from a handful of states to current membership of 27. It has evolved
:39:09. > :39:12.into the world's biggest trading block and transformed the
:39:12. > :39:18.continent's map. Turkey is one of eight countries hoping to join. It
:39:18. > :39:26.has been a long journey, an associate member since 1963. Turkey
:39:26. > :39:31.applied for full membership in 1987 and has been negotiating terms ever
:39:31. > :39:38.since. Under law countries have to comply with tests to show they are
:39:38. > :39:47.politically, financially and psychologically ready to join. The
:39:47. > :39:51.head of turkey has set a deadline of 2023 to invite them to join the
:39:51. > :39:55.party. Fears over Turkish migration to person Europe remain obstacle.
:39:56. > :40:01.Earlier today I caught up with Turkey's minister responsible for
:40:01. > :40:07.negotiations to join me. Minister, after some 25 years of trying to be
:40:07. > :40:12.a full member of the EU? What 25, 54 years. From the very start. In
:40:12. > :40:18.terms it of the formalities of it, since the 1980s, why are you still
:40:18. > :40:22.trying to become full members of the EU? Because we believe the EU
:40:22. > :40:26.is the grandest peace project of the history of mankind. If it has
:40:26. > :40:31.helped you guys live with the French, despite Waterloo, it shows
:40:31. > :40:36.that it is a very important peace project. But this peace project is
:40:36. > :40:42.still a continental one, but when Turkey joins the EU, we can help
:40:42. > :40:48.transform it to become a global one. But do you think the EU is actually
:40:48. > :40:51.negotiating with you in good faith. Because I've talk today quite a lot
:40:51. > :40:56.of Turkish people who think you have been strung along for years.
:40:56. > :41:06.There are more people in the EU, there are more countries in the EU
:41:06. > :41:06.
:41:06. > :41:13.who are since seerl in -- sincerely in favour of Turkey's accession, in
:41:13. > :41:18.contrast to others who have other ideas in the back of their mindss.
:41:18. > :41:23.I think in the long -- minds. I think in the long run, this great
:41:23. > :41:28.rent day have you, Turkey and Europe joining together, -- rend
:41:28. > :41:36.day have you, Turkey and Europe joining together, will be based on
:41:36. > :41:41.concrete needs. This is a very important project. It is based on a
:41:41. > :41:45.win-win. If you look at the EU your growth over the last five years has
:41:45. > :41:48.been higher than the EU average. Britain may be getting out of the
:41:48. > :41:52.EU at precisely the point you are joining. How does that, and given
:41:52. > :41:58.that Britain is one of your big supporter, how does that affect the
:41:58. > :42:04.way you look on the EU, a club that some people may actually want to
:42:04. > :42:14.leave? Prime Minister Cameron's messages are very clear. I think
:42:14. > :42:18.these messages will help Europe put itself in order. Put its houz --
:42:18. > :42:22.house in order and shape. I think we can all work together towards
:42:22. > :42:27.creating a brighter future for all of us. Do you also see the big
:42:27. > :42:30.worry in Britain, and elsewhere, about immigration. There is worries
:42:30. > :42:34.now that many Bulgarians and Romanians when free to travel will
:42:34. > :42:38.come to this country and there won't be jobs for them and it will
:42:38. > :42:43.be a drain .5 million Turkish people? I don't think as concern.
:42:43. > :42:48.We were discussing the Polish plumber concept for years. I
:42:48. > :42:52.haven't seen many Polish plumbers in the UK or France. A lot of
:42:52. > :42:56.people in the UK have seen a lot of Polish plumbers? It is a huge fear
:42:56. > :43:03.that if there was freedom of travel for Turk, many Turk would travel to
:43:03. > :43:08.Europe. About according to German Government -- but according to
:43:08. > :43:12.Germany Government statistic, more Germans are migrate to go Turkey
:43:12. > :43:16.than the other way around. In the aftermath of the economic crisis,
:43:16. > :43:20.prospects of living in Romania, Bulgaria and eventually Turkey,
:43:20. > :43:24.might be better compared to some of the countries who are concerned.
:43:24. > :43:33.will look to see the British immigration to Turkey in the
:43:33. > :43:40.future? Well, there is huge in throw of real estate purchasing by
:43:40. > :43:44.British citizens in Turkey, and the more the merrier. We have bright
:43:44. > :43:49.Mediterranean sun 300 days of the year. And with the British pension
:43:49. > :43:53.salary, they can enjoy a much greater life with higher standard
:43:53. > :43:57.in Turkey compared to what they can hardly afford here in the UK. So
:43:57. > :44:02.they are more than welcome to come. Just a final thought, which is
:44:02. > :44:06.about Turkey's role. You are playing a big role in Syria, and a
:44:06. > :44:10.big role in the Middle East, do you regret the fact that the Americans
:44:10. > :44:13.are not doing more. Perhaps the Europeans haven't woken up to the
:44:13. > :44:20.fact that it is their problem too, and they will have to do more n
:44:20. > :44:23.Syria and the wider Middle East? Syria, on average, 100 people are
:44:24. > :44:28.being killed by their own Government every single day. I I
:44:28. > :44:33.don't think -- I don't think anyone has the right to look the other way.
:44:33. > :44:38.I believe in the fact that nobody is safe until everybody is safe. If
:44:38. > :44:45.we let the current bloodshed continue, it's going to hurt all of
:44:45. > :44:50.us. Therefore, we have to commence our friend in Russia, China, a --
:44:50. > :44:58.convince our commends in Russia and China to put the necessary leverage
:44:58. > :45:04.on this Assad dictator in Syria, to leave and let Syrian people choose
:45:04. > :45:14.their new democratic Government. Thank you very much. Quick look at
:45:14. > :45:14.
:45:14. > :46:17.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 63 seconds
:46:17. > :46:26.That's it from us tonight. Before we go an item of interest to
:46:26. > :46:31.Beyonce and others, when the Bakersfield Conned dors played ice
:46:31. > :46:41.cocky, it was thought a real life Condor would attend the singing of
:46:41. > :46:58.
:46:58. > :47:08.the National Anthem. The condor of # The land of the free
:47:08. > :47:08.
:47:08. > :47:13.Hello there, a change in our weather through the course of
:47:13. > :47:16.tomorrow, as we start to see more significant snowfall returning,
:47:16. > :47:20.particularly across the higher route of Scotland and northern
:47:21. > :47:26.Englandment even some at lower level for a time, acompany by
:47:26. > :47:30.strong to gale-force gusts of wind. That will cause some problems on
:47:30. > :47:33.the higher routes if you are travelling by car through the
:47:33. > :47:39.afternoon. Across East Anglia and the south-east corner, it is a grey
:47:39. > :47:45.and cold day, dry during daylight showers. Temperatures around 6-8
:47:45. > :47:49.degrees, rain rather than snow. A period of time of snow, turning
:47:49. > :47:55.back to rain, to finish the day out. For Northern Ireland the rain clors
:47:55. > :47:57.away. A quieter end to the afternoon. -- clears a quieter
:47:57. > :48:02.afternoon. By the middle of the afternoon the significant threat of
:48:02. > :48:06.snow will start to ease away from Scotland. We could see as much as
:48:06. > :48:10.10-15cms to higher ground before clearing through. There will be a
:48:10. > :48:13.spell of snow turning to rain, a milder feel behind double figures
:48:13. > :48:17.during Wednesday afternoon. For England and Wales, again, some snow
:48:17. > :48:21.into the Midland, elsewhere it will be rain, a milder feel from