:00:12. > :00:16.Tonight, getting a grip on the horse meat scandal, a crisis
:00:16. > :00:19.meeting in Brussels, with countries from Ireland, to Romania now
:00:19. > :00:23.implicated. It seems like every day we are learning something new about
:00:23. > :00:28.what we are eating. So how do we best make sure we know what's in
:00:28. > :00:33.our food, and where it comes from. We will hear from the Prime
:00:33. > :00:37.Minister of Romania. Also the blank page where Labour's policy should
:00:37. > :00:40.be. We hear from the man in charge of the party's policy review, on
:00:40. > :00:47.what Ed Miliband's Labour is for, what it should do.
:00:47. > :00:52.And, he came close to becoming the European Union's first Marxist
:00:52. > :01:01.Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras tells Newsnight why he thinks
:01:01. > :01:04.Greece's democracy itself could be in danger.
:01:04. > :01:08.Good evening a crisis meeting in Brussels, the British Prime
:01:08. > :01:12.Minister promising the full force of the law. The Romanian Prime
:01:12. > :01:16.Minister denying to Newsnight his country is responsible for the
:01:16. > :01:22.dodgy supposed beef which is actually mothers. From Dublin to --
:01:22. > :01:25.horse, from Dublin to Westminster, to Bucharest, agriculture minister,
:01:26. > :01:33.scientists and consumers are trying to make sense of a complicated
:01:33. > :01:38.relationship between meat packers and sources. Passing off cheap meat
:01:38. > :01:40.as expensive. We will hear from a far from happy Romanian Prime
:01:40. > :01:44.Minister tonight, but we have this coverage tonight.
:01:44. > :01:48.Within all the confusion of the horsemeat scandal, it is easy to
:01:48. > :01:57.forget it is actually about something quite simple. How much do
:01:57. > :02:02.we know about the journey farm animals make from here to our plate.
:02:02. > :02:06.Jody Scheckter is a former Formula One world champion, who now runs an
:02:06. > :02:12.organic meat from in Hampshire. can see in a computer in the office
:02:12. > :02:15.where every piece of meat is in this abattoir. It comes from France
:02:15. > :02:19.and into the abattoir, in the abattoir we have three people from
:02:19. > :02:22.the Government, you can't bring any other animal in that looks like
:02:22. > :02:26.something else. We track the meat right through until it gets to the
:02:27. > :02:31.plate, and to the outlet where we sell it. This is a pretty highend
:02:31. > :02:38.operation, not only do they farm sheep and cattle, but buffalo too.
:02:38. > :02:41.And it's unusual in having so many parts of the chain here on the one
:02:41. > :02:46.site. From farm to abattoir to customer. When the imperative is
:02:46. > :02:52.food that everyone can afford, is it possible to have this degree of
:02:52. > :02:55.safeguard all along the chain. Horses are supposed to be
:02:55. > :03:02.identifiable through passport and microchip, beef cattle also have a
:03:03. > :03:07.passport and ear tag. But after slaughter, tracability gets harder.
:03:07. > :03:11.The problem becomes when it becomes processed, such as mince or other
:03:11. > :03:16.more complex products. Here we have to remember that the microchip, or
:03:16. > :03:21.the ear tag, doesn't accompany that box of processed meat. It is a
:03:21. > :03:23.paper-based system, which works on trust, and that, combined with a
:03:23. > :03:28.complex food chain across the European Union, we have the single
:03:28. > :03:32.market for this, makes tracability complex, difficult and, as we are
:03:32. > :03:38.finding, open to misuse.The Structure of the meat supply chain
:03:38. > :03:41.can be a long one, and the paper trail complex. From farm to
:03:41. > :03:47.slaughterhouse, which may or may not include a cutting plant for
:03:47. > :03:51.boning and packing, and from here, the meat is either sent on to a
:03:51. > :03:56.food processor, wholesaler or directly to the consumer. But in
:03:56. > :04:00.most cases to a retailer or food outlet. This whole chain is under
:04:00. > :04:04.scrutiny now across Europe, as officials try to work out what
:04:04. > :04:09.happened where. Drawing in first Ireland, then France, Netherlands,
:04:09. > :04:13.Luxembourg, Romania, and as we found out yesterday, the UK.
:04:13. > :04:17.some cases it is possible to determine not just the species and
:04:17. > :04:21.country of origin, but the breed, the farm, and in fact, the field
:04:22. > :04:25.that they are grazing in. But at the value end you pay less money
:04:25. > :04:29.because you are not having that levels of tracability. It is
:04:29. > :04:35.passing through many hands, and so, yes, almost inevitably this is
:04:35. > :04:39.going to be only at the value end that the tracability is eradicated.
:04:39. > :04:42.So if we can't place too much trust in paper audit, the other way to
:04:42. > :04:49.check what is in the supply chain is to test. Scientists who carry
:04:49. > :04:51.out this DNA testing say retailers and the Food Standards Agency needs
:04:52. > :04:56.to shift the balance towards more testing. They only test the things
:04:56. > :05:00.they expect to be there. What has happened in this situation is that
:05:00. > :05:04.nobody, very few people were looking for horseMay meat in final
:05:04. > :05:09.products. Certainly the FSA in this country, and most of the retail as
:05:09. > :05:13.far as I can tell weren't either. So you can only test for what you
:05:13. > :05:18.expect to be there. I think because the FSA are not doing so much
:05:18. > :05:25.surveillance work in this area any more, these things, I think, are
:05:25. > :05:29.being missed. It'ss good. For Jody Scheckter, the
:05:29. > :05:33.last thing he thinks is needed is mormon torg of the meat supply
:05:33. > :05:37.chain. There is always a way of cheat ago system, but there is
:05:37. > :05:40.always bad people in every type of industry that is going to try to
:05:40. > :05:45.sneak something in a little bit cheaper. -- cheating the system,
:05:45. > :05:48.but there is always bad people of every type of industry trying to
:05:48. > :05:53.sneak something in. But monitoring will make it more expensive and
:05:53. > :05:57.make it that they want cheap foods, because they so regulate it, it
:05:57. > :06:01.makes it so expensive. There is either way to look at it. Today the
:06:02. > :06:06.BBC spoke to the Welsh owner of one of two companies which the Food
:06:06. > :06:10.Standards Agency yesterday alleged had been passing off horse as beef,
:06:10. > :06:13.destined for kebabs and burgers. His lawyer said the agency's
:06:13. > :06:19.allegations are misleading. I get paid for doing the cutting up.
:06:19. > :06:24.There is no further processing, I don't do keb bags, I don't --
:06:24. > :06:27.kebabs, I don't do mincemeat or beef burgers this is not a
:06:27. > :06:30.processing plant. This is purely production, meat cutting.
:06:30. > :06:36.Brussels tonight there was agreement that the way ahead to win
:06:36. > :06:41.back consumer confidence is more DNA testing across the EU. To check
:06:41. > :06:45.for horsemeat, and a focus on testing for the veterinary medicine
:06:45. > :06:48.bute, used on horses, but should not be in the human food chain.
:06:48. > :06:52.consumer needs to see a co- ordinated and determined effort,
:06:52. > :06:57.right across Europe, to get to the bottom of this problem. It is
:06:57. > :07:00.completely wrong that consumers are being presented with a product
:07:00. > :07:04.marked "beef", and finding it contains horse. I'm delighted we
:07:04. > :07:06.got this meetinging pulled together at short notice today. And I'm
:07:06. > :07:11.pleased that the commissioner has come forward with proposelia that
:07:11. > :07:15.is we wanted. It is clear we do want DNA testing of processed beef
:07:15. > :07:19.products, that will help reassure the consumer.
:07:19. > :07:24.The soul searching continues about the way we farm our meat, process
:07:24. > :07:29.our food and keep consumers informed about what we are all
:07:29. > :07:34.eating. Earlier today I talked with the Prime Minister of Romania about
:07:34. > :07:38.the finger pointing which suggests Romania is to blame for some of the
:07:38. > :07:41.adulterated meat products. He insists it a European, not just
:07:41. > :07:47.Romanian problem, and has confidence about how horsemeat is
:07:47. > :07:50.produced in his country. Up to now according to all the checks that
:07:50. > :07:55.the Romanian and European authorities, and you the media have
:07:55. > :07:59.conducted here in Romania, it is very clear that there are plans
:07:59. > :08:06.plants and companies in are you main -- plants, and companies in
:08:06. > :08:11.Romania exporting horsemeat, but everything was according to the
:08:11. > :08:15.standards. The kind of meat was clearly put as being horsemeat,
:08:15. > :08:20.somewhere on the network to the UK and other countries, it seems that
:08:20. > :08:24.something I will local happened, and we will fully co-operate to
:08:24. > :08:28.punish, if there is a Romanian company, up to now it hasn't been
:08:28. > :08:32.like this, but to punish the companies involved, and to rebuild
:08:32. > :08:36.the trust of the European consumers. Do you accept that if this is, as
:08:37. > :08:42.you say, a European problem, then the European system clearly isn't
:08:42. > :08:46.working? I can tell you, because I'm not a specialist in this matter,
:08:46. > :08:53.but I can tell you that at least in Romania, up to now, according to
:08:53. > :08:56.all the checks, the European standards has been respected and
:08:56. > :09:03.that means that the European procedures have worked. It is a
:09:03. > :09:09.clear case of fraud, and I know that there are frauds in many other
:09:09. > :09:14.issues, not only in in this field. I think that using this crisis, we
:09:14. > :09:19.should work together on the European side to threaten the
:09:19. > :09:22.checks, the rules and to make the procedures even better than up to
:09:22. > :09:26.now. What do you mean by that, sorry to interrupt, what you do
:09:26. > :09:34.mean by making it even better. People in this country are amazed
:09:34. > :09:38.that we are importing meat from Romania, through Dutch, French and
:09:39. > :09:41.Spanish intermediaries, which some how turns up in our food and not
:09:41. > :09:47.tabled correctly. What has to work better? Actually if we are
:09:47. > :09:52.referring to this case, there was no import from Romania to the UK.
:09:52. > :09:58.Romanians produced and have exported to France, to Luxembourg,
:09:58. > :10:05.to Cyprus, to some other European countries. So the idea is, and this
:10:05. > :10:09.is, I think, the concern of the European authorities, but each
:10:09. > :10:13.member-state and the authorities is to find out exactly where the fraud
:10:13. > :10:18.has been committed. To take very harsh measures against the kpts,
:10:18. > :10:22.and to put in place rules -- companies, and to put in place
:10:22. > :10:26.rules for the future to avoid these kinds of frauds. Do you think this
:10:26. > :10:30.is damaging to Romania, because we are having a campaign now to buy
:10:30. > :10:33.local, buy British and don't buy stuff from abroad, that will hurt
:10:34. > :10:41.your industry? The main concern should not be the concern interests
:10:41. > :10:46.of one company, from Romania or the UK. The main interest and the main
:10:46. > :10:50.responsibility we have is towards the consumers. British consumers,
:10:50. > :10:55.like any other European consumers, like the Romanian consumers, they
:10:55. > :11:03.have the right to know the truth about the food. We should, first of
:11:03. > :11:07.all, treat these scandals, taking into consideration the legitimate
:11:07. > :11:14.right of the consumers to be rightly informed and to know the
:11:14. > :11:17.truth. Secondly, off course this scandal is going to affect some
:11:17. > :11:24.companies. If we are talking about guilty companies, this is very good,
:11:24. > :11:28.and they should be very harshly punished. If it is the owners, then
:11:28. > :11:32.the fair companies, it is in the interests of all the Governments to
:11:33. > :11:36.protect the honest companies and punish the dishonest ones.
:11:37. > :11:42.don't think Romania is being made the fall guy and scapegoat for
:11:42. > :11:47.this? It could have been. If we had not reacted very fast, and very
:11:47. > :11:51.clearly. That's why I'm rather satisfied that the Romanian
:11:51. > :11:57.authorities took this issue very, very seriously, and for the time
:11:57. > :12:02.being, for the time being, I'm satisfied with the way that we
:12:02. > :12:08.reacted, but we are going to, once again, I don't consider the job of
:12:08. > :12:12.the Romanian authorities fulfilled, because nothing happens in are you
:12:12. > :12:19.mainia. I think that we should double check, triple check this, to
:12:19. > :12:24.help all the member states and the European authorities, as I told you,
:12:24. > :12:30.to punish the responsible companies, and secondly, to make better rules
:12:30. > :12:34.and better standards for the future. What all this has uncovered, of
:12:34. > :12:37.course, is how little we actually know about what goes into processed
:12:37. > :12:43.food, and also whether the pressure to buy cheap food might be damaging
:12:43. > :12:47.in the long run. To discuss this, Tim Lang, Professor of food policy
:12:47. > :12:52.at City University, the MP, Sandys, campaigning on food pricing, and we
:12:52. > :12:57.are joined by the NFU President, Peter Kendall from Brussels.
:12:57. > :13:01.Do you have a sense whereof the blame lies in this, has there --
:13:01. > :13:06.where the blame lies in this, has there been a structural breakdown?
:13:06. > :13:09.I thought the interview with the Romanian premier was spot on. What
:13:09. > :13:15.it was exposing is initial reflexes of the British Government was to
:13:15. > :13:18.blame the Romanians. It was a convenient, far away, easy to do,
:13:18. > :13:24.but that was a very robust defence, and the Romanians, if you notice,
:13:24. > :13:26.all along have said, hold on. The other theory, if that's the bad
:13:26. > :13:30.company apple theory, the other they arey, which is actually what
:13:30. > :13:37.most people think, is -- theory, which is actually what most people
:13:37. > :13:40.think, is this is a systemic failure. Some of the most biggest,
:13:40. > :13:45.highly capitalised, and most ruthless companies in the food
:13:45. > :13:49.system, have been found to be selling horsemeat, the jewel in the
:13:49. > :13:53.crown of how they manage the system, contracts and specifications, have
:13:53. > :13:59.been busted apart. You can't say that's a bad apple. You can't say
:13:59. > :14:03.that is a rogue Romanian. consumer policy chief at the EU
:14:03. > :14:07.said the EU regulatory regime is one of the safest in the world?
:14:07. > :14:12.This isn't about safety, this is about trust. So far it is not about
:14:12. > :14:17.safety. This is about, does a consumer get what she or he expects
:14:17. > :14:22.to get? This is about what we in Britain had a row about in the mid-
:14:22. > :14:25.19th century, and it ended up in our law with that classic statement,
:14:25. > :14:30.which is basically what Europe has too, which is "food should be of
:14:30. > :14:34.the nature, quality and substance demanded", that ain't what people
:14:34. > :14:38.have got with horse burgers. Peter Kendall, do you think that
:14:38. > :14:44.consumers, if the trust is the issue, I'm sure it is for most
:14:44. > :14:48.people, consumers will trust things more if the EU's plans for more ran
:14:48. > :14:51.Dom testing comes in. -- random testing comes in. It sounds like a
:14:51. > :14:55.drop in the bucket? I think consumers are being concerned they
:14:55. > :14:59.are being sold one thing and then picking up something else from the
:14:59. > :15:03.shelves. I think we have all got to work together to reassure people
:15:03. > :15:07.about where food comes from, and the tests it goes through. I want
:15:07. > :15:11.consumers to look for the tracability of local supply chains.
:15:11. > :15:16.I think something Tim and I would agree on is the notion that it has
:15:16. > :15:23.become such a long chain, such a secure chain around large chunks of
:15:23. > :15:27.Europe and the world, it means it is very easy for a rogue person, a
:15:27. > :15:30.fraudster to get involved in that chain. We need more integrated,
:15:30. > :15:34.designated supply chains, that helps build trust between the
:15:34. > :15:39.farmer and the consumer. Peter Kendall, for instance, if we go
:15:39. > :15:44.into a shop and it says "British beef" we want to believe absolutely
:15:44. > :15:49.that it's British and it is beef. But we don't know? We simply don't
:15:49. > :15:52.know? You do, and I live in Bedfordshire, I shop at the local
:15:52. > :15:57.butcher's, you see the farm it has come from. Some of the retailers
:15:57. > :16:00.are trying to build that sort of relationship up. That's to be
:16:00. > :16:05.applauded. The more the retailers say I know my farmers, I know how
:16:05. > :16:08.they look after them, we have a special regime for both welfare and
:16:08. > :16:12.environmental stewardship, that's a great message. It need not cost the
:16:12. > :16:15.earth. It could be that product going into ordinary value lines as
:16:16. > :16:19.well. You have campaigned on this for quite some time. In terms of
:16:20. > :16:26.the lower end, the value end, it is very difficult, isn't it? It is not
:16:26. > :16:32.as if you can absolutely trace it. We have seen these absolutely
:16:32. > :16:37.incomprehensible chains where we get our kebabs through some places
:16:37. > :16:41.in Europe? In some instances it is worse than horsemeat. We are
:16:42. > :16:45.talking about substitution with high fructose, corn syrup, things
:16:45. > :16:49.that are actually extremely bad for you. What we are trying to do, what
:16:49. > :16:52.has happened to the food system is we have rising food prices, and the
:16:52. > :16:57.food sector is trying to keep the prices the same as they have been
:16:57. > :17:03.in the past. Particularly at the value end. As a result what we are
:17:03. > :17:07.doing is the consumer is the person who is absorbing either reduced
:17:07. > :17:11.ingredient, reduced quality ingredients, packaging that is
:17:11. > :17:14.actually distributing a little bit more air than actual product, and
:17:15. > :17:18.promotions. What we have got to do is just be clear with the consumer,
:17:18. > :17:22.food prices are going up. We have to change our business model. We
:17:22. > :17:26.have to be clear and straight with the consumer. Are you going to be
:17:26. > :17:29.the brave politician who says we should just pay for more our food,
:17:29. > :17:32.given that people are finding it hard to pay any way? At the moment
:17:32. > :17:36.what we have got is consumers who are paying for food that isn't what
:17:36. > :17:41.it says often on the package. And the issue is, that consumers are
:17:41. > :17:45.smart, whether they come from some of my poorest wards, or central
:17:45. > :17:48.London, they are smart people. You give them the right information,
:17:48. > :17:54.they will make the right decisions. But we have had for too long a
:17:54. > :18:01.system which is actually just perpetuating cheap food available
:18:01. > :18:05.at call costs at -- at all cost at all times. Will we pay for more
:18:05. > :18:09.food, it is about trust, perhaps some of us would be happy to pay
:18:09. > :18:14.less for good food as long as we know what we are getting? This is
:18:14. > :18:21.the moment when the British love affair with the cheap food policy,
:18:21. > :18:26.we have had since 1846, is now being exposed. It got exposed in
:18:26. > :18:30.World War I and 2, the oil price of the 1970s and the oil price and
:18:30. > :18:34.commodity and exploitation of 2007/08. It has brought it to us
:18:34. > :18:37.that food isn't that cheap, the environment pays for it, Laura's
:18:38. > :18:43.point is healthcare pays for it. What we think is cheap food isn't.
:18:43. > :18:47.Other bits are paying for it. France that is the same? They pay a
:18:47. > :18:51.lot more. They may be eating stuff that they think is lasagne made
:18:51. > :18:56.from beef and it is not. It is not just about cheap food? I take your
:18:56. > :18:59.point. Absolutely, as Peter was saying, this is about the new
:18:59. > :19:02.complex long supply chains. We have actually got different business
:19:03. > :19:06.model, we have to go for a different business model. Peter
:19:06. > :19:14.Kendall, what do you think, it is about confidence, it is about trugs,
:19:14. > :19:18.but what do you think -- trust, but what do you would convince the
:19:18. > :19:21.British -- do you think would convince the British consumers they
:19:21. > :19:25.can trust what will the EU or the British Government do? We have to
:19:25. > :19:29.rectify and get the tests done. I think tracability and insurance
:19:29. > :19:31.schemes. Because of the past problems we have had in the UK
:19:31. > :19:35.around BSE, we have the most rigorous testing you have ever seen
:19:35. > :19:38.in the UK. But as well as that, farmers have their own voluntary
:19:38. > :19:45.scheme, where they pay for independent inspectors to come and
:19:45. > :19:48.check their farms. That is the Red Tractor logo scheme, that builds
:19:48. > :19:52.confidence, and farmers paying other people to check on them.
:19:52. > :19:55.you think farmers are up for more regulation. It sounds like British
:19:56. > :19:59.farmers are going to have to stomach some more regulation, just
:19:59. > :20:03.because other people are doing dodgy things? No, I think we can do
:20:03. > :20:11.this with partnerships throughout the supply chain, as long as
:20:11. > :20:13.retailers step up to the mark. Jody Scheckter was right, we don't want
:20:13. > :20:16.more regulation, we implement environmental and tracing standards
:20:16. > :20:20.in the UK and they don't apply elsewhere. One of the problems that
:20:20. > :20:25.will come out of all of this, is we don't monitor horse movements in
:20:25. > :20:29.the way we do cattle. And that could be the absolute weakness in
:20:29. > :20:32.this whole chain that horses haven't been monitored. I think we
:20:32. > :20:35.are talking about meat here, but actually the whole food system, we
:20:35. > :20:38.need education and that's being introduced in the curriculum. We
:20:38. > :20:42.need to value food in a very different way. I think it's going
:20:42. > :20:46.to be the poorest families who will actually get the greatest benefit
:20:46. > :20:50.from more nutritional food, and more skills to be able to actually
:20:50. > :20:54.manage a budget more effectively. You can't do that overnight? Not at
:20:54. > :20:57.all, we need over the transition period, from the period of really
:20:57. > :21:01.cheap and sometimes less than great food, to a period, to a place where
:21:01. > :21:04.we will value food, and be able to use it more effectively in our
:21:04. > :21:10.houses. Tim, do you think we are now going to look at lots of other
:21:10. > :21:14.things now and say can we trust this and that in that tin. Is this
:21:14. > :21:18.just the beginning of something? could be. There are lots of other
:21:18. > :21:21.products that, frankly, if DNA testing is applied, you wonder what
:21:21. > :21:27.will be found out. This is about money and power and it is about
:21:27. > :21:31.control. One of the things, let's go back to the 1990s be when we had
:21:31. > :21:36.the food safety crisis, we created the Food Standards Agency, it
:21:36. > :21:39.became the European model. The European Food Safety Authority, and
:21:39. > :21:44.so on. It is not doing its job. The new chair is about to be appointed,
:21:44. > :21:48.we have to make sure they do his or her job. We need more inspectors,
:21:48. > :21:51.they have been slashed and cut. We can't have industry policing itself,
:21:51. > :22:00.that is what has gone wrong. The big food companies didn't actually
:22:00. > :22:04.have the control they said they had. Stay with us for the front pages.
:22:04. > :22:07.Also in the programme, Greece's opposition leader accuses his
:22:07. > :22:13.Government of pursuing a strategy that is dangerous to democracy
:22:13. > :22:17.itself. What's the Labour Party for, you
:22:17. > :22:20.might think with opinion polls tending to show a Labour lead over
:22:20. > :22:23.the Conservatives nationally, the answer is rather obvious, to oppose
:22:23. > :22:27.the coalition's cuts and austerity. Actually that is what Labour's
:22:27. > :22:31.against. When it comes to new policies and new thinking, for what
:22:31. > :22:35.Ed Miliband calls "one-nation Labour", there is a slogan, but
:22:35. > :22:39.what lies behind it. The man charged with conducting Labour's
:22:39. > :22:45.policy review is the MP, Jon Cruddas. He has rarely given much
:22:45. > :22:51.away. Tonight he might just do so. They say it is a blank piece of
:22:51. > :22:56.paper what the Labour Party might do in environment in 2015.
:22:56. > :23:00.That scares some as increasingly favourable opinion polls could
:23:00. > :23:06.pitch the opposition into power in two-and-a-half years time. For one
:23:06. > :23:09.man, the paper isn't blank. But bears the impression of this place.
:23:09. > :23:13.When the Labour Party offer eventually comes, it will have been
:23:13. > :23:18.made in Dagenham. Tomorrow Jon Cruddas, Labour's policy chief,
:23:18. > :23:20.throws his weight behind an exercise being done by the think-
:23:21. > :23:24.tank, Institute for Public Policy Research. It is an audit on the
:23:24. > :23:28.major social challenges facing Britain, and an update to a ground-
:23:28. > :23:31.breaking one, last done before the 1997 Labour landslide. The Labour
:23:31. > :23:38.Party thinks it knows what it thinks about the current economy,
:23:38. > :23:45.but less about society. Where better to start than in the hands
:23:45. > :23:55.of society's sociologists, the barbers of barking and Dagenham.
:23:55. > :23:55.
:23:55. > :23:58.-- Barking and Dagenham. Just going back, 23 years ago, what were you
:23:58. > :24:02.doing? At the time I was working for Tony Blair, actually. That
:24:02. > :24:05.commission was a landmark piece of work. It set up the agenda for what
:24:05. > :24:09.became the agenda of the Labour Government. Now you have to ask
:24:09. > :24:13.whether the same questions that it posed then are the right ones for
:24:13. > :24:18.today. We have to ask whether we need to put more fundamental
:24:18. > :24:21.questions around the big issues, welfare, housing, the labour market,
:24:21. > :24:26.whether we got that right. This is an attempt to start going into that
:24:26. > :24:31.stuff, and coming up with an agenda that is right for today.
:24:31. > :24:35.If you look at something like tax credits, do you think tax credits,
:24:35. > :24:39.a great big Gordon Brown innovation, they let big companies get away
:24:39. > :24:44.with stuff? They incentivised free riding on employ yes, rather than
:24:44. > :24:48.us folk us cussing on a decent living wage for everyone, that it
:24:48. > :24:57.shouldn't fall very low. That is live around here now. That should
:24:57. > :25:00.go a good departure point for a Labour agenda in the future.
:25:00. > :25:06.Labour plans not to reveal what they will spend and what they will
:25:06. > :25:09.cut until after the next election. Does that work? We have to
:25:09. > :25:13.acknowledge that the music has stopped economically, we will have
:25:13. > :25:18.to start rebuilding it. Nationally Labour has to show it can do more
:25:18. > :25:22.with less? Absolutely, the money is not there. It is no good saying to
:25:22. > :25:24.the voters, trust this on the other side of an election? I think people
:25:24. > :25:27.will demand clarity and priorities and they will demand a real sense
:25:27. > :25:37.of purpose in terms of understanding the direction we are
:25:37. > :25:41.
:25:41. > :25:45.going to take the country. Destination two, the Rosie Lee.
:25:45. > :25:49.Simon works for the council, he brings home �1300 a month, after
:25:49. > :25:57.buildings and food he has almost nothing left. What would help you,
:25:57. > :26:00.what can they do? Something is wrong with my tax. I think we can
:26:00. > :26:04.do something around the rents for landlords, we can do something
:26:04. > :26:08.about raising the pay to make sure you get a living wage. You wouldn't
:26:08. > :26:12.be affected by a living age, any increase in living wage he wouldn't
:26:12. > :26:16.be affected by? It is a floor, starting to put building blocks to
:26:16. > :26:18.confront some of the big architectural questions. He said
:26:18. > :26:23.lower taxes, what would you do about that? There is a debate
:26:23. > :26:26.around a 10p tax that would work perfectly with the terms of some of
:26:26. > :26:30.the debate you are experiencing Simon. We have to create a
:26:30. > :26:33.discussion about how we are going to deal with some of these things,
:26:33. > :26:37.where people feel they are getting squeezed from all angles. We are
:26:37. > :26:40.not making a tax policy now, right. What we are trying to do is start
:26:40. > :26:45.talking about some of the issues, about how you can get your wage
:26:45. > :26:48.rate that you can't live on. 2010, what did you think of the
:26:48. > :26:54.Labour Government leaving power, they had done enough for you?
:26:54. > :26:58.not at the time. I think that's why they had to leave power. We pay �24
:26:58. > :27:02.billion in housing benefit, and we pay �1 billion to build new houses,
:27:02. > :27:06.it plays into the hands of landlords, putting up the rents,
:27:06. > :27:10.and all your money is getting swallowed in terms of what you send
:27:10. > :27:15.out to your landlord. Under Labour that �25 billion housing benefit
:27:15. > :27:19.pot would be in their sights. They might cut it or give it back to
:27:19. > :27:21.councils to use to build houses. This idea could be the third of
:27:21. > :27:27.three measures to deal with the cost of living. More houses to
:27:27. > :27:30.bring down prices and rents. Living wages to bring up pay packets and
:27:30. > :27:36.possibly even lower taxes. This exercise assumes all of this will
:27:36. > :27:41.be done at a time of lower public spending. The think-tank's audit
:27:41. > :27:45.will take aim at market failures, but also a bureaucratic state.
:27:45. > :27:52.Suggesting new networks are stepping into the parts of the
:27:52. > :27:59.welfare state. Far from being broken, Saturday is well, if
:27:59. > :28:03.embattled. Like here, a different Big Society,
:28:03. > :28:12.Labour think it is a better Big Society, might one day a nightly
:28:12. > :28:16.session at the local boxing club, replace a trip to the Jobcentre?
:28:16. > :28:20.Cruddas argues there are networks out there that can do the job of
:28:20. > :28:23.the state for less. I like the Big Society, it has just sort of
:28:23. > :28:28.collapsed, we have to rebuild it in terms of what it could be. I think
:28:28. > :28:31.there is a lot of energy, but it has turned to dust. So Tom why have
:28:31. > :28:36.you come down here tonight, what is your involvement with it? We work
:28:36. > :28:42.with the boxing club, it is really important for us to find young
:28:42. > :28:45.people, who are what we call "job ready", he understand punctuality,
:28:45. > :28:48.attendance, and attitude to work and colleagues. We have a lot of
:28:48. > :28:54.jobs but not enough people to put them in. There is a department just
:28:54. > :28:59.around the corner, the DWP, they are really just ticking a lot ofs.
:28:59. > :29:05.That is the Jobcentre? Really brokering jobs for some of these
:29:05. > :29:09.kids, they are not on the park. I like this as a working model.
:29:09. > :29:12.would give Jobcentre moneys to something like this? Absolutely,
:29:12. > :29:15.four or five jobs that get brokered don't go near the Department of
:29:15. > :29:21.Work and Pensions, they are in partnerships like this, this is the
:29:22. > :29:25.future as far as I see. As the state has shriveled, civic society
:29:25. > :29:29.has moved in to feed the most vulnerable. Jon Cruddas not only
:29:29. > :29:32.thinks that foodbanks exists, he thinks these are a positive
:29:32. > :29:37.development for us. These will be around definitely. They are here to
:29:37. > :29:40.statement we are getting more and mosh pressure to get more and more
:29:40. > :29:44.food distributed. Over the last couple of years this community has
:29:44. > :29:48.shown it has the capacity to do it. What Ken has planned, what we are
:29:48. > :29:53.doing in terms of purchasing energy, and rebuilding the social capital,
:29:53. > :29:57.in terms of counselling people, giving them local advice, pooling
:29:57. > :30:00.white goods, children's toys, it is possible. It is the future and it
:30:00. > :30:03.is not going away. We have to step in and rebuild safety nets as
:30:03. > :30:09.others disappear. So if there are new safety nets,
:30:09. > :30:18.the party may also move to a new ideal, in welfare, those who have
:30:18. > :30:22.contributed deserve more back. How long have you both been in
:30:22. > :30:27.work? You have almost continued to be in work for 30 years you were
:30:27. > :30:31.saying? About 30 years now, continuously. What about you?
:30:31. > :30:34.for about 20 years. What we were talking about is whether if someone
:30:34. > :30:38.had been in work that long and fell on hard times, whether they should
:30:38. > :30:41.get slightly more, because they have contributed all their working
:30:41. > :30:46.lives, and whether that would build more confidence in the benefits
:30:46. > :30:50.system if that were the case. think that would be more, should
:30:50. > :30:56.get more, the more you paid in, the more you should get. Somebody like
:30:56. > :30:59.Paul, if he suddenly found himself out of works, he would get a higher
:30:59. > :31:02.level of jobseeker's allowance than the �70 at the moment? We are
:31:02. > :31:06.saying there is a discussion-to-to be had about having an earnings-
:31:06. > :31:11.related element, the longer you contribute to the system. It is a
:31:11. > :31:15.debate we should have, whether it would build more confidence in the
:31:15. > :31:20.benefits system. There used to be an earning-related element to it
:31:20. > :31:24.years ago. Not much time to go until the next election. At the
:31:24. > :31:31.half way point there are some shapes discernable on Labour's
:31:31. > :31:34.piece of paper, just no indelible ink.
:31:34. > :31:38.I spoke to Jon Cruddas before coming on air.
:31:38. > :31:42.You are in charge of Labour as policy review, isn't your policy at
:31:42. > :31:47.the next election, effectively, going to be, whatever Ed Balls said
:31:47. > :31:50.you can afford? There are outstanding economic issues. There
:31:50. > :31:54.are issues of expenditure, the financial envelope as they call it.
:31:54. > :31:56.That is a core element to it. You will see the leader make a major
:31:56. > :32:00.economic speech in the morning. There is also a launch tomorrow
:32:00. > :32:03.morning of a major initiative around social policy. It is not
:32:03. > :32:06.just exclusively about the economic, but they are front and centre.
:32:06. > :32:09.reason Ed Balls said in December, until we know the state of the
:32:09. > :32:12.economy, the stay of the public finances, it is very hard for us to
:32:12. > :32:16.know what we can possibly say. The impression is, that you have been
:32:16. > :32:21.struck dumb, really, in the past two years. You can't say anything,
:32:21. > :32:24.of any substance, about what you would actually do? That is
:32:24. > :32:27.interesting, that is a live view in the commentary, but we have a
:32:27. > :32:32.really thorough process on going in terms of the policy review. We have
:32:32. > :32:35.sorted out the strublgures, the timeline, the -- structure, the
:32:35. > :32:39.timelines, the responsibilities. I'm involved in all those meetings
:32:39. > :32:43.and it is a lively process. I won't systematically deliver all the
:32:43. > :32:48.policies today, but I think I can confidently say we have a thorough
:32:48. > :32:52.process on going. You have a process, but the beef as it were?
:32:52. > :32:55.Slightly inappropriate use of language there. Rather than the
:32:55. > :33:00.bull perhaps! Where are the policies, you have this process, it
:33:00. > :33:05.does come down to pwha you are going to have to afford. -- to what
:33:05. > :33:09.you can are going it afford. You said opposing the cuts without an
:33:09. > :33:12.alternative is no good? That is precisely what we are doing, we are
:33:12. > :33:14.building the alternative now I won't give you a real-time
:33:14. > :33:17.commentary about the discussions we are having and the ideas we have
:33:17. > :33:20.concluded and come to. That will come later. There is a sequence.
:33:20. > :33:23.How much later? You will gradually see this come into the public
:33:24. > :33:26.domain over the next months. We have a programme, we have the
:33:26. > :33:29.timeline, we have the responsibilities, the deadlines and
:33:29. > :33:33.the ideas. And actually, to tell you the truth, before I took on
:33:33. > :33:38.this job, I wasn't awash with confidence that we those wheels
:33:38. > :33:43.turning. Having seen it at very close quarters, I'm confident we
:33:43. > :33:47.will have a robust policy agenda to submit before the British people.
:33:47. > :33:50.Eventually? Yes, because there is a fixed-term parliament, there is 26
:33:50. > :33:53.months before the likely time of the next election. I'm very
:33:54. > :33:59.confident about the trajectory of the policy making and the
:33:59. > :34:02.construction and the direction and leadership provided. Give as you
:34:02. > :34:05.clue in terms of the ideology. Michael Foot's Labour Party of over
:34:05. > :34:12.here, and Tony Blair's Labour Party was over here. Where is Ed
:34:12. > :34:15.Miliband's Labour party? We have just come off the back of, arguably
:34:15. > :34:20.the worse collision with the electorate, excuse us coming in and
:34:20. > :34:27.saying there is an on-off button. I'm asking for a clue, the voters
:34:27. > :34:32.need a clue? In 1993 someone once said half the people wanted to meet
:34:32. > :34:36.the Labour Party, and the others wanted the Russians in to bust the
:34:36. > :34:40.police. Tony Blair came together for a brilliant model. Hold on,
:34:40. > :34:46.just wait for one moment. Tomorrow we're unveil ago major piece of
:34:46. > :34:50.work in terms of the commission of social justice 25 years furd on T
:34:50. > :34:54.will discuss the contours of British society, and come up with
:34:54. > :34:59.radical, new innovative thinking. Again, might say, I'm part of the
:34:59. > :35:06.commentary, where is the substance. I'm asking on behalf of the voters.
:35:06. > :35:09.We know it is one-nation Labour, that is a great slogan. It seems to
:35:09. > :35:12.mean whatever you didn't like us before we are something different.
:35:12. > :35:16.What is the something different on that spectrum. Do you have any clue,
:35:16. > :35:20.ideolgically, Michael Foot, Tony Blair, where is Ed Miliband? Wait,
:35:20. > :35:24.if the clock is ticking, so may I tentatively suggest you wait for
:35:24. > :35:29.example until tomorrow, where you will see a major substantive piece
:35:29. > :35:33.of economic policy articulated by our leader. You will see over a
:35:33. > :35:37.couple of months ahead intervention on welfare, education, immigration.
:35:37. > :35:42.With all due curtesy, I would tentatively suggest to you that
:35:42. > :35:45.this is some sort of take on what is going on. Below the surface
:35:45. > :35:48.there is a lot of work going on, we will deliver it to the British
:35:48. > :35:52.public. You would understand, although I did ask and we would
:35:52. > :35:57.love to hear specific policies, we have been endlessly patient, and
:35:57. > :36:01.for two years. I'm asking for some kind of clue, ideolgically, where
:36:01. > :36:04.you are? I would suggest you study the speech Ed will make in the
:36:04. > :36:08.morning. And all will be clear tomorrow night? That is the trite
:36:08. > :36:11.flipant journalistic reply. I would tentatively suggest to you, have a
:36:11. > :36:17.look at it and the Commission on Social Justice. Or what is coming
:36:17. > :36:20.up tomorrow, which is called The Condition of Britain, it is a
:36:20. > :36:24.serious piece of thinking on the social policy in this country at
:36:24. > :36:28.the moment. I suggest you have a look at them. Are you qernd that
:36:28. > :36:32.voters don't actually - concerned that voters don't really know that
:36:32. > :36:35.apart from opposing the cuts and austerity what you really stand for.
:36:35. > :36:39.That is a really big concern. Why should they vote for you? I put my
:36:39. > :36:44.hands up, I live in the real world, I know this is not the finished
:36:44. > :36:48.article in terms of the substantive policy ideas. All I would say is we
:36:48. > :36:51.have had a major discussion with the electorate a couple of years
:36:51. > :36:55.ago, we didn't come off too well. We have to thoroughly rebuild from
:36:55. > :37:00.the bottom up. One argument is, if we keep our mouth should we might
:37:00. > :37:04.get across the line, by default. that Ed Balls's idea? We have to
:37:04. > :37:07.come up with radical innovative thinking, the Labour Party sits on
:37:07. > :37:12.the latter rather than the former, that will be delivered over the
:37:12. > :37:16.next months and years. On Europe, in the referendum on the EU, you
:37:16. > :37:19.said this is about democracy and respecting the people. Were you
:37:19. > :37:25.disappointed that Ed Miliband's first instinct was to say no?
:37:25. > :37:28.didn't say that. With all due respect. He did say it in the
:37:28. > :37:32.Commons, it was corrected later when he was rowing back? There is
:37:32. > :37:36.small ball around Westminster to literally say what he said. What he
:37:36. > :37:39.meant. Ah, what he meant. He meant the position had had not changed
:37:39. > :37:43.for our support of a possibility of a referendum down the road.
:37:43. > :37:48.Depending on the shape of the discussion, the proposed
:37:48. > :37:52.repatriation of powers deployed by David Cameron. We will see where we
:37:52. > :37:58.goat to. You think it is about democracy and supporting the
:37:58. > :38:00.people? It gives politics a bad name if I disinvent things I said
:38:00. > :38:03.before taking on the job. Thank you very much.
:38:03. > :38:07.Before the end of the programme we will have the front pages. First,
:38:07. > :38:13.with the Greek economy still deep in recession, a man who came close
:38:13. > :38:17.to being the European Union's first Marxist Prime Minister, has upped
:38:17. > :38:21.the political ante in Brussels. Alexis Tsipras, nicknamed Sexy
:38:21. > :38:24.Alexi by British tabloids, has ayes cuesed Greek coalition Government
:38:24. > :38:28.of operate ago strategy of blackmail, terrorism and tension.
:38:28. > :38:37.We went to meet Mr Tsipras and find out if democracy really is in
:38:37. > :38:41.danger in Greece. The piece contains flash photography.
:38:41. > :38:47.Greece is a country where economic crisis has given way to social
:38:47. > :38:51.crisis. The far right on the march, strikes paralysing the capital and
:38:51. > :38:55.now political violence. The police have cleared out anarchist squat,
:38:55. > :39:00.and someone fired a Kalashnikov at the headquarters of the ruling
:39:00. > :39:04.party. Now the left-wing opposition leader, Alexis Tsipras, has upped
:39:04. > :39:14.the ante, accusing the Government of a strategy of tension, akin to
:39:14. > :39:20.that pursued by the Italian Secret Service in the 1970s. TRANSLATION:
:39:20. > :39:23.In 1969 a bomb in Milan left 17 dead. It was a dawn of a long
:39:23. > :39:25.period where far right and fascist groups, in collaboration with the
:39:25. > :39:29.Italian Secret Services, the parallel state, and the state
:39:29. > :39:34.within a state, developed what came to be called, the strategy of
:39:34. > :39:37.tension. Today the manuals of the European extreme right have become
:39:37. > :39:41.the gospels of the present Greek Government. The coalition
:39:41. > :39:45.Government brought to power by Antonis Samaras last year, has
:39:45. > :39:50.stablised the fiscal swaying. But it is politically fragile. If it
:39:50. > :39:56.falls Mr Tsipras would have a decent chance of becoming modern
:39:56. > :39:59.Europe's first Marxist Prime Minister. Are you seriously saying
:40:00. > :40:06.the Greek state is pursuing a secret strategy of creating violent
:40:06. > :40:10.tension? TRANSLATION: It is not exactly a secret strategy. It is
:40:10. > :40:13.obvious the Government is trying to establish an agenda that
:40:13. > :40:17.intensifies political confligt, which aims at creating a sense of
:40:17. > :40:22.fear within the Greek society. But this strategy, I believe, is a very
:40:22. > :40:26.dangerous one, for democracy itself. If our Government, and Mr Samaras,
:40:26. > :40:29.believe he can run this country forever, using blackmail, terrorism
:40:30. > :40:35.and the tension strategy, he is sadly mistaken. This month, the
:40:35. > :40:39.tension was not notched up some more, four anarchists were caught
:40:40. > :40:45.trying to rob bank. The police photo shopped the arrest shots,
:40:45. > :40:51.because the injuries were received while being beaten in custody,
:40:51. > :40:55.allegedly. Meanwhile the far right Golden Dawn party, which 4% in the
:40:55. > :40:59.polls, openly defends its right to use violence, and is regularly on
:40:59. > :41:03.the streets. For a man whose party has more experience on the streets
:41:03. > :41:07.than Government. It has posed tough questions. The electorate looked at
:41:07. > :41:12.you as a party and thought is this a party that can come to power and
:41:12. > :41:16.run the police force. What will you do about Golden Dawn and anarchist
:41:16. > :41:21.bank robbers. Is this a party to run a Greek state, without the
:41:21. > :41:24.Greek state falling apart and rebelling? TRANSLATION: We will
:41:24. > :41:29.implement and rigidly follow the letter of the law. And "zero
:41:29. > :41:34.tolerance" towards Golden Dawn, which is gang breaking the law. We
:41:34. > :41:38.will uproot all Golden Dawn cells within the Government. There will
:41:38. > :41:42.be legal reprecussions for groups using violence, who say they belong
:41:42. > :41:47.to the anarchist movement. I don't believe they are anarchists,
:41:47. > :41:54.because the use of violence is the most authoritarian act one could
:41:54. > :42:01.exercise. Mr Tsipras lost ground in the polls, after he publicly backed
:42:01. > :42:05.a tube strike that patrol leased Athens. Many say we are crying wolf
:42:05. > :42:09.to cover their on opposition. Tsipras is crying wolf. It is a
:42:09. > :42:13.fact that recently the Government is taking advantage of some of the
:42:13. > :42:18.pronouncement of Mr Tsipras, and throwing it back at him. That is
:42:18. > :42:24.true. The Government also probably has its strategy, which is to
:42:24. > :42:28.reveal what Mr Tsipras is about. To the undecided voters. Mostly
:42:28. > :42:31.because the undecided voters are not radicals. The Greek Government
:42:32. > :42:36.has not publicly responded to Mr Tsipras's claims T thinks it is
:42:36. > :42:40.winning the economic argument, and it is him who is on the ropes.
:42:40. > :42:46.Don't you have to admit that the coalition has stablised the fiscal
:42:46. > :42:53.situation, and they were right, and they did a deal with the IMF and EU,
:42:53. > :42:55.and your ro posed deal would have crashed the Greek economy?
:42:56. > :43:00.TRANSLATION: No serious person could admit something like this.
:43:00. > :43:05.Lock at the data, in Greece, in the last three years, in order to
:43:05. > :43:11.reduce the primary deficit of the Government, by 25 billion euro, we
:43:11. > :43:16.reduced the internal demand by 70 billion euros. The Greek economy
:43:16. > :43:22.shrunk by 70 billion euros. It is like seeing a snake in the tree and
:43:22. > :43:28.deciding to burn the entire for to get rid of the snake. It is
:43:28. > :43:32.sadistic be a surity. It is not just his own rallies where he is
:43:32. > :43:36.feted, he has been all over. The Greek situation is fractious, some
:43:36. > :43:41.worry Mr Tsipras, in his suit, accommodated too much to power, and
:43:41. > :43:44.the men in black T-shirts are the only ones left expressing the anger.
:43:44. > :43:49.Are you the man of the parliamentary opposition, or the
:43:49. > :43:55.man who will lead the tube strikers out here, into a mass uprising
:43:55. > :43:59.against this Government. It is a serious question, and one all left
:43:59. > :44:03.oppositions have to answer? TRANSLATION: I think this is
:44:03. > :44:06.exactly our biggest advantage. We can be at the same time the
:44:06. > :44:10.parliamentary opposition, and tomorrow the Government. At the
:44:10. > :44:14.same time we can be down in the streets, fighting and mobilising
:44:14. > :44:19.the masses. In Greece we have people that are committing suicide.
:44:19. > :44:24.Every day beaten by absolute despair. In order for those people
:44:24. > :44:29.to live, they need to defeat the fear and claim their rights.
:44:29. > :44:32.He lost the election, just, and the in coming Government did stablise
:44:33. > :44:37.things economically. But memories of the secret state, the Cold War,
:44:37. > :44:44.destablisation, will always have the power to polarise and split
:44:44. > :44:54.Greek politics. That, really, is what Mr Tsipras is trying to do.
:44:54. > :44:54.
:44:54. > :45:41.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 46 seconds
:45:41. > :45:45.We wanted to leave you with a reminder that tomorrow is
:45:45. > :45:52.Valentine's Day, and some romantically inclined as tomorrow
:45:52. > :45:57.tron mers have released a picture of planetry nebular 172 who they
:45:57. > :46:07.say looks like a Valentine's rose in the heavens. But some say it
:46:07. > :46:33.
:46:33. > :46:36.We have certainly seen disruptive snow through the day today. Very
:46:36. > :46:41.icey through the rest of the evening overnight. And pretty wet
:46:41. > :46:43.across England and Wales. That rain taking a while to clear away,
:46:43. > :46:47.potential surface flooding. It looks brighter and dryer through
:46:47. > :46:50.the day on Thursday. Temperatures considerably higher than they have
:46:50. > :46:54.been through the day today as well. What a difference the day makes. A
:46:54. > :46:58.few showers around following the rain. Very few getting into eastern
:46:58. > :47:02.areas, they will be peppering areas further west, for example across
:47:02. > :47:06.the south west of England and Wales. Winds easing down as well, they
:47:06. > :47:10.will be blowing a gale across England, continuing over Scotland.
:47:10. > :47:13.Enough to push the showers across the Cheshire gap through the
:47:13. > :47:16.Midland. A few showers through the day across Northern Ireland, not as
:47:16. > :47:20.wet as today. There will be a fair few showers blowing into the North
:47:20. > :47:24.West of Scotland. Quite wet here. The winds and rain easing away from
:47:24. > :47:28.the Northern Isles as well. A very different day, a risk of ice
:47:28. > :47:34.through the night into morning. What about Friday? It looks as if
:47:34. > :47:38.the fine and dry weather will hang around on Friday. One or two icey
:47:38. > :47:43.patches, given the clear skies at night. The rain clearing away on
:47:43. > :47:47.Thursday first thing, brightening up, a dry and bright day on Friday.