:00:12. > :00:19.$:/STARTFEED. Born in Britain, educated in Britain, yet they hated
:00:19. > :00:26.this country so much they wanted another 9/11 of terror and murder.
:00:26. > :00:29.The three key players in a terrorist bomb plot made in
:00:29. > :00:33.Birmingham face life imprisonment. Have the security forces turned a
:00:33. > :00:35.corner in the fight against extremism. We will hear from the
:00:35. > :00:40.experts about the battle on home- grown terror.
:00:40. > :00:45.Most of Europe think he's a clown, a crook or a dirty old geezer, or
:00:45. > :00:48.all of the above. As he plans yet another comeback, what is Italy's
:00:48. > :00:54.strange love affair with Silvio Berlusconi.
:00:54. > :00:58.They are fascinated, they love him, they laugh. They cannot really,
:00:58. > :01:02.they should be angry with him, because actually he destroyed our
:01:02. > :01:06.country. Oscar Pistorius is in the dock, but now it is the prosecution
:01:06. > :01:09.that is on trial. South Africa's extraordinary murder case gets even
:01:09. > :01:13.more bizarre. And, what does it take to get a
:01:13. > :01:20.bright young woman to become an engineering. Has the profession got
:01:20. > :01:26.an image problem? Your typical man in their overalls coming to fix a
:01:26. > :01:31.washing machine and asking for a cup of tea.
:01:31. > :01:34.Good evening, MI5 and West Midlands Police have broken apart a
:01:34. > :01:37.terrorist plot so serious in its ambition, that hundreds of innocent
:01:37. > :01:45.British people could have died. Part of the plan was to detonate
:01:45. > :01:53.bombs in crowded areas, and attack the plotters in way that would be
:01:53. > :01:56.far greater than the London 7th of July bombings, which claimed 52
:01:56. > :02:00.lives. We hear of the change in counter
:02:00. > :02:03.terrorism strategy that may have helped disrupt the plot. First, the
:02:03. > :02:08.plotters themselves, fanatical in their aims, but at times
:02:08. > :02:15.incompetent in their abilities. It was the day that 52 innocent
:02:15. > :02:18.commuters lost their lives to the bombs of radical Islamists. For
:02:19. > :02:22.these three man, Irfan Khalid, Irfan Naseer and Ashik Ali,
:02:22. > :02:27.convicted today of 12 counts of preparing acts of terrorism, the
:02:27. > :02:32.events of the 7th July 2005 were, in fact, a disappointment. Terror
:02:32. > :02:35.on too small a scale. From their own words, they were quite critical
:02:35. > :02:40.of the 7/7 bombers and the fact they didn't kill enough people.
:02:40. > :02:43.They wanted this to be their 9/11. The evidence retrieved from the
:02:43. > :02:48.plotters safe house demonstrates their deadly intent. Including
:02:48. > :02:54.setting off up to eight bombs in rucksacks and possibly other bombs
:02:54. > :03:00.on timers. They also posed as street collectors for the charity
:03:00. > :03:07.Muslim Aid. So fraudulently raise �13,500. But a series of hair
:03:07. > :03:11.brained plots, and the loss of �9,000 of their funds trading on-
:03:11. > :03:17.line, led Ashik Ali, one of the convicted men, to remark to his
:03:17. > :03:24.estranged life, "you think this is a flipping Four Lions, we are one
:03:25. > :03:28.man short". It is very simple, you eat your SIM card. The Lions film
:03:28. > :03:32.tells of incompetent terrorist wannabes, but the reference
:03:32. > :03:36.underestimates the gang's fanatical desire to murder and maime. None of
:03:36. > :03:41.this detracts from a number of realities. They were able to go
:03:41. > :03:45.abroad and connect with Al-Qaeda, and record video, receive some form
:03:45. > :03:50.of training, which they then came back to the UK to put into play.
:03:50. > :03:54.All these things have very serious. That they did things on the side
:03:54. > :03:57.that were typically clownish and with a fine fine-element, are par
:03:57. > :04:02.for the course for these sorts of plots. The trial is a reminder that
:04:02. > :04:05.British cities like Birmingham have a disaffected few who could present
:04:05. > :04:10.a radical threat and terrorist danger in the future. Birmingham
:04:10. > :04:15.broadly needs to take seriously the threat that emerges from
:04:15. > :04:19.radicalised young men. I'm really comfortable that I stand shoulder-
:04:19. > :04:23.to-shoulder with key political leaders of Birmingham City council,
:04:23. > :04:28.we are working over the long-term to stop today's ten-year-olds being
:04:28. > :04:32.tomorrow's residents of Belmarsh or other high-security prisons. With
:04:32. > :04:36.growing instability in the Middle East and North Africa, some experts
:04:36. > :04:41.are concerned that a new front in the radicalisation of young British
:04:41. > :04:45.Muslims is about to be opened. Syria is, I think, the case which
:04:45. > :04:49.has the potential to have most direct implications in the UK at
:04:49. > :04:54.the moment. Because there is a body of young British Muslims who are
:04:54. > :04:59.being radicalised here in the UK who are electing to go over there
:04:59. > :05:04.and join with groups that are fighting the Assad regime, some of
:05:04. > :05:07.whom are secular, some are not. Some have connections with Al-Qaeda
:05:07. > :05:10.in Iraq. From a security perspective, this presents a
:05:10. > :05:14.dangerous problem. Last summer's Olympics presented the Security
:05:14. > :05:19.Services with their biggest-ever challenge. In part, thanks to an
:05:19. > :05:22.emergency deployment of troops and the positioning, alarming to some,
:05:22. > :05:27.of surface-to-air missiles on the top of a local tower block, the
:05:27. > :05:31.event went off without incident. This, combined with today's
:05:31. > :05:36.successful prosecutions, gives the impression of a threat that's under
:05:36. > :05:39.control.P even if that is true, -- even if that is true, the threat,
:05:39. > :05:44.does indeed remain. For some perspective on the
:05:44. > :05:48.significance of the case I'm joined by Huband, who has published a book
:05:48. > :05:52.on the fight against terrorism by terrorist agencies. First Richard
:05:52. > :05:55.Watson, I suppose MI5 and counter terrorism police officers must be
:05:55. > :06:00.pleased with how this has turned out? I think absolutely, this is a
:06:00. > :06:06.big success for the police and MI5. If you look back we haven't had a
:06:06. > :06:11.successful attack on the UK since 2050 now, 7/7, which claimed so
:06:11. > :06:15.many lives. That has to be put in the context of probably one
:06:15. > :06:21.credible attack plan per year since 2001. Every single year, that is
:06:21. > :06:25.what sources are telling me at the Security Service. So, clearly, many,
:06:26. > :06:30.many plots have been thwarted. Largely, this is down to the fact n
:06:30. > :06:33.my view, that MI5 has a closer understanding now of the extremist
:06:33. > :06:37.networks. They can penetrate those networks and put them under
:06:37. > :06:40.surveillance in a much more efficient fashion. Undoubtedly it
:06:40. > :06:45.has been a big success for the Security Service. As you know, the
:06:45. > :06:50.IRA used to say they only have to be lucky once, you have to be lucky,
:06:50. > :06:54.meaning the Security Services, every time. What keeps these people
:06:54. > :06:57.awake at night worrying about future threats? They won't be
:06:57. > :07:00.complacent about this. Even though their penetration and understanding
:07:00. > :07:04.of the networks is a lot greater today than it was in 2003, when the
:07:04. > :07:08.actual knowledge was very, very poor. It is not impossible that
:07:08. > :07:13.there will be a clean skin coming through, or an attack not on the
:07:13. > :07:16.radar. An attack is still possible. One sourced said to me today, it is
:07:16. > :07:20.a kind of stalemate here. We have a situation where the Security
:07:20. > :07:25.Service and the police are penetrating and monitoring plots
:07:25. > :07:28.that are far earlier in their stage, but the aspiration from the
:07:28. > :07:32.extremists is still there to actually carry out these plots.
:07:32. > :07:38.Also, I think, we have to look at the wider picture here. A few years
:07:38. > :07:42.ago, 90% of MI5's resources were tide up with Pakistan. I'm told by
:07:42. > :07:48.sources that today that figure is close to 50%. So a marked
:07:48. > :07:53.difference. Largely because the drone attacks in Pakistan and
:07:53. > :07:57.Afghanistan tribunal areas. That is having a very -- tribal areas. That
:07:57. > :08:00.is having a very significant effect. What is keeping the Security
:08:00. > :08:07.Services awake at night is the changing nature of the threat. It
:08:07. > :08:10.is shifting away from Pakistan and Afghanistan towards North Africa,
:08:10. > :08:14.the mabgreb, Somalia and Syria. That changing nature of the threat
:08:14. > :08:19.is very significant, I'm told that between 50-80 British nationals
:08:19. > :08:23.have travelled to Syria to join the insurgents. The key issue for the
:08:23. > :08:27.Security Services is, what happens when they come back to the UK as
:08:27. > :08:32.British citizens. They will be battle-trained, and that means they
:08:32. > :08:35.present a far greater danger in the future. Beginning with the Security
:08:35. > :08:42.Service and counter terrorism just to kick off with. How much better
:08:42. > :08:45.are they at it now, how much more focused and how has that changed
:08:45. > :08:52.since 2005? I think a lot better. They would be the first to
:08:52. > :08:57.acknowledge that they had huge problems prior to the July 7th
:08:57. > :09:00.bombings in 2005. They were, frankly, playing catch-up. They
:09:00. > :09:05.were in a position where they didn't know what kind of threat
:09:05. > :09:09.they were facing. They were in a position where the process of
:09:09. > :09:12.infiltrating potential plots had proved pretty much impossible. They
:09:12. > :09:17.were also in a position where, in the global scheme of things, they
:09:17. > :09:21.were still fighting alongside the United States in the global war on
:09:21. > :09:24.terror. Only when they were very -- there were very major changes to
:09:24. > :09:28.all these different aspects did they start to be effective. The
:09:28. > :09:31.first thing was to say to the Americans we can't fight a global
:09:31. > :09:37.war on terror with you any more because we have a big problem at
:09:37. > :09:42.home and we need to be dealing with that. The steps that followed,
:09:42. > :09:46.certainly before the July bombings in 2050, which were certainly
:09:46. > :09:50.accelerated after that, involved in particular MI5 creating regional
:09:50. > :09:53.offices in different parts of the UK. Which brought them, as Richard
:09:53. > :10:01.has just said, very much closer to the ground level. So in Birmingham,
:10:01. > :10:05.in this case, and other places. The real shock to most people is
:10:05. > :10:08.this is home-grown, British people, British educated, brought up in
:10:08. > :10:11.Britain. They go to Pakistan for training some of them, but they
:10:11. > :10:15.come back here and try to do something terrible here. Where is
:10:15. > :10:19.the source of this hatred of what this country stands for. What is
:10:19. > :10:23.being done to counter that? I think there are certainly different
:10:23. > :10:27.aspects. Certainly the profiling of the terrorist is something that has
:10:27. > :10:31.been done a great deal over a long period of time. Certainly since
:10:31. > :10:36.9/11, trying to work out what is it that radicalises an individual,
:10:36. > :10:39.trying to work out what radicalises one individual but not another,
:10:39. > :10:42.even if they have been to school together and in the same community.
:10:42. > :10:45.Personality play as role, individual responses play a role.
:10:45. > :10:49.Whether it is the case that somebody from a broken home, or who
:10:49. > :10:53.has been unemployed for a long time, within that community, is more
:10:53. > :10:57.likely to be radicalised than somebody else. Remains, frankly
:10:57. > :11:04.pretty uncertain. It is not the case that there is one profile. I
:11:04. > :11:08.think that it is the issue of hatred the issue of personality, it
:11:08. > :11:12.is very much a personal thing as social and community based. What
:11:12. > :11:16.about the nature of the plot. It would have been devastating if some
:11:16. > :11:21.of this had happened. On the fringes of it there were thoughts
:11:21. > :11:25.of putting poisonous hand cream on things so people would die. Or
:11:25. > :11:32.getting a car or truck driving into a crowd in such a way to injure
:11:32. > :11:38.them. It is very evil but it also sounds strange? The logistics of
:11:38. > :11:43.the whole thing. The hand cream is resonant of the Ricin plot, a you
:11:43. > :11:46.foo years ago, it was thought this -- a few years ago, it was thought
:11:46. > :11:49.this poison that was developed in a flat in North London, it was
:11:49. > :11:52.thought it would be distribute bid putting it into cream and then
:11:52. > :11:57.smeared on the bannisters of underground stations and all sorts
:11:57. > :12:00.of other things. The issues with regard to how to carry out the
:12:00. > :12:05.attack have not become particularly sophisticated. Clearly it was
:12:05. > :12:08.rucksacks and so on, which were also being considered. Just a final
:12:08. > :12:12.thought, what more do you think needs to be done in terms of the
:12:12. > :12:15.kind of threat Richard was talking about. It is changing all the time.
:12:15. > :12:20.It mutates, different language, different ethnic groups, different
:12:20. > :12:25.groups of people who seem to be involved? Clearly the process of
:12:25. > :12:30.surveillance, identifying individuals, essentially very
:12:30. > :12:32.important and keeping the community and the Muslim community on side.
:12:32. > :12:36.Encouraging people in the Muslim community to talk to the
:12:36. > :12:40.authorities and the police about what is taking place within their
:12:40. > :12:43.own communities is absolutely essential. In a way it is more of
:12:43. > :12:48.the same. This is clearly what has happened today. It is a great
:12:48. > :12:52.success in many ways. Clearly a plot was thwarted, but the evidence
:12:52. > :12:55.gathered was also credible as evidence. So these people have gone
:12:55. > :13:02.to jail as a result. There are some pretty important steps that have
:13:02. > :13:05.been taken. In a moment, the latest
:13:06. > :13:12.extraordinary twists in the Oscar Pistorius trial. The prosecution
:13:12. > :13:15.becomes the accused. Now, here's a bit of a puzzle,
:13:15. > :13:21.Silvio Berlusconi. All across Europe the former Italian Prime
:13:21. > :13:25.Minister is regarded as a music hall joke. In Italy he's loathed by
:13:25. > :13:29.millions, but many regard him as a Lost Prince, the saviour who can
:13:29. > :13:32.redeem their country from the awful ordinary politicians. Since
:13:32. > :13:35.Berlusconi has more comebacks since Frank Sinatra and is planning
:13:35. > :13:45.another in elections this weekend, we wanted to try to explain his
:13:45. > :13:46.
:13:46. > :13:56.appeal. If that is the right word. The man of a smile and a tan, that
:13:56. > :13:57.
:13:57. > :14:02.never seemed to fade. Silvio Berlusconi has a lot to grin about.
:14:02. > :14:12.His billion-dollar business emmire, decade-younger fiance, and Phoenix
:14:12. > :14:14.
:14:14. > :14:18.from the ashes return to politics in Italy's election campaign.
:14:18. > :14:22.Despite 20 years of financial, sexual and political scandals,
:14:22. > :14:30.millions of Italians say they will vote for Silvio Berlusconi now, as
:14:30. > :14:36.before. Why? Outside Italy this is what we think of when we hear the
:14:36. > :14:39.name "Silvio Berlusconi", luxury, flashy villas, this one known for
:14:39. > :14:43.hosting his bunga-bunga parties, accompanied by other ageing
:14:43. > :14:48.influential men. Cavorting with scores of scantily dressed young
:14:48. > :14:51.women. We think of the famous gaffes, such as praising Mussolini
:14:51. > :14:58.on Holocaust memorial day. But there is a large part of the
:14:58. > :15:04.Italian electorate that has a very different image of the man.
:15:04. > :15:08.This is where Silvio Berlusconi was born. Milan, where Italy's business
:15:08. > :15:16.heart beats. And where he made his fortune in property, football and
:15:16. > :15:19.media. It's also a key battleground in this weekend's election. Back in
:15:19. > :15:24.1994, when Silvio Berlusconi entered the world of politics, he
:15:24. > :15:31.promised to share his recipe of glitz, glamour and success, with
:15:31. > :15:36.the rest of Italy. But the party here is very much over. The
:15:36. > :15:39.eurozone's third-largest economy is in serious trouble. Mr Berlusconi
:15:39. > :15:44.was uncermoniously booted from Government 18 months ago. His
:15:44. > :15:48.political career apparent low in tatters. Now he's campaigning for -
:15:48. > :15:52.- apparently in tatters. Now he's campaigning for a comeback.
:15:52. > :15:58.Promising a fairytale ending for Italian families. People here are
:15:58. > :16:02.listening. So how has he managed this remarkable resurrection from
:16:02. > :16:11.the political dead? In the heart of many Italians Berlusconi will never
:16:11. > :16:14.die. He's really like Mr Peron in Argentina. The nature of the
:16:14. > :16:21.relations between Berlusconi and his voters is not rational, it is
:16:21. > :16:26.an emotional relationship. How? the sense that he's a sort of
:16:26. > :16:30.Emperor. He's a sort of king. We are looking for a king. We were not
:16:30. > :16:38.a democracy in the MoD he were sense of the determine, we are
:16:38. > :16:47.inbetween, in the middle between a modern democracy and a more ancient
:16:47. > :16:51.political form. In previous elections Silvio
:16:51. > :16:57.Berlusconi relied pretty heavily on the cult of Berlusconi. Just look
:16:57. > :17:07.at the video from his 2008 campaign for re-election. With this
:17:07. > :17:09.
:17:09. > :17:13.insistent refrain, "thank goodness for Silvio"!
:17:13. > :17:16.But now, possibly a little chastened by being ousted mid-term
:17:16. > :17:21.from Government, and by the growing public distaste for his private
:17:21. > :17:27.conduct, Mr Berlusconi is pushing his economic message rather more.
:17:27. > :17:32.His flamboyant image a little less. Silvio Berlusconi knows the economy
:17:32. > :17:37.is on all Italians' minds. Living costs here are some of the highest
:17:37. > :17:45.in Europe. So are the levels of tax evasion, by the way. Lost tax
:17:45. > :17:51.revenues in Italy are thought to be equivalent to 18% of GDP. Bergamo,
:17:51. > :17:54.like Milan, is part of the northern Lombardy region. People are still
:17:54. > :17:59.relatively well-off, compared to the mystery in Italy's south. But
:18:00. > :18:03.the bitter chill of economic hardship bites here too.
:18:03. > :18:12.TRANSLATION: I would love to see Berlusconi live on the wage of the
:18:12. > :18:16.average Italian, he has noed idea. He wouldn't last an hour-and-a-half.
:18:16. > :18:19.TRANSLATION: I hope he can keep to his programme to create jobs,
:18:19. > :18:28.remove the taxes introduced recently and pay back the money we
:18:28. > :18:31.have already paid out. Berlusconi? TRANSLATION: Berlusconi is a great
:18:31. > :18:41.businessman. He has built a media empire. If he wins the election I
:18:41. > :18:43.
:18:43. > :18:48.hope he will do for Italy what he has done for himself. But Silvio
:18:48. > :18:55.Berlusconi has already been Prime Minister three times. While his own
:18:55. > :19:01.fortunes prospered, Italy's economy nose-dived. Critics say he turned a
:19:01. > :19:06.blind eye to the structural reforms Italy so needs. You won't notice it
:19:06. > :19:10.when walking down Rome's splendid streets, but protectionism,
:19:10. > :19:15.corruption and red tape mean it is tough to do business here. Worse in
:19:15. > :19:19.Italy, according to the World Bank, than in Belarus and Monday goalia.
:19:19. > :19:23.But a growing number of -- Mongolia. But a growing number of Italians
:19:23. > :19:27.blame the euro for their pain, rather than Silvio Berlusconi. Ever
:19:27. > :19:35.the populist, Berlusconi has added a sharp euro-sceptic tone to his
:19:35. > :19:40.campaign. And this is his favourite pulpit, the television studio. Mr
:19:40. > :19:44.Berlusconi knows 80% of Italians get their news and information from
:19:44. > :19:48.television. He owns three of Italy's biggest TV channels. In the
:19:48. > :19:53.lead up to this election he has appeared almost daily on all the
:19:53. > :20:03.others. TV presenter, Giovanni Floris, is a household name in
:20:03. > :20:03.
:20:03. > :20:06.Italy, he says Berlusconi is the master of the medium. TRANSLATION:
:20:06. > :20:10.He bases a significant part of his power on his ability on television.
:20:10. > :20:13.Of course it has helped him a lot that half of the television
:20:13. > :20:18.stations long to him, and he has influence over the other half. He
:20:18. > :20:22.uses the media to speak with his many people as possible. His
:20:22. > :20:25.strongest talent is making Italians believe he has understood their
:20:25. > :20:29.problems. When he talks about returning what they have paid in
:20:29. > :20:34.property tax. As a journalist you want to bring him back to reality,
:20:34. > :20:39.but his skill lies in peddling dreams as reality.
:20:39. > :20:43.Silvio Berlusconi's opponents say his agenda is more insidious. They
:20:43. > :20:47.accuse him of using his media influence to silence critics and of
:20:47. > :20:51.being in politics primarily to keep himself out of jail. Mr Berlusconi
:20:51. > :20:59.says he's innocent. But over the years his legal woes have been
:20:59. > :21:05.considerable. This is a political satirist, her
:21:05. > :21:09.scathing sketches have often been censored in Italy. After 20 years
:21:09. > :21:13.of Berlusconi we don't have culture any more, we don't have a sense of
:21:13. > :21:18.freedom any more. Sabina Guzzanti is just finishing a film about
:21:18. > :21:25.corruption, nothing new in Italy. But she blames Silvio Berlusconi
:21:25. > :21:32.for lowering the moral tone of her country. When you live in a big
:21:32. > :21:38.mess with this big scandal every day, ever day, involving everyone,
:21:38. > :21:44.every level of institutions, people get used to this. There is no wrong
:21:44. > :21:48.and right any more. In this election period, even the people
:21:48. > :21:54.supposed to hate them they are fascinated. They love him, they
:21:54. > :21:59.laugh. They cannot really, they should be angry with him, because
:21:59. > :22:03.actually he destroyed our country and our culture, he destroyed every
:22:03. > :22:08.bit of dignity we used to have. But they don't.
:22:08. > :22:10.Perhaps so many Italians have had that reaction to Silvio Berlusconi
:22:10. > :22:20.because they are deeply disillusioned with politics in
:22:20. > :22:25.general. It is carnival time in Viareggio, Tuscany. Even here
:22:25. > :22:31.Italian leaders are derided. They are mocked as infantile, accused of
:22:31. > :22:35.leading the country a merry dance and of emptying ittal y'allian
:22:35. > :22:38.profits while they enrich themselves with kickbacks. Aside
:22:38. > :22:43.from their politicians, many Italians have little faith in their
:22:43. > :22:47.political system. It was put in place after Mussolini to make sure
:22:47. > :22:51.no-one person or party could turn Italy into a dictatorship. Good in
:22:51. > :22:57.theory, in practice it means no Italian Prime Minister has the
:22:57. > :23:00.clout to deliver tough political reforms. It has given birth to a
:23:00. > :23:08.culture of arragiarsi, finding your way around the system. Silvio
:23:08. > :23:13.Berlusconi is a master at that, and many here admire him for it.
:23:13. > :23:18.Deborah Bergamini is an MP for Berlusconi's People of Freedom
:23:18. > :23:22.Party, and a close all lie. She says non-Italians are unjustly
:23:22. > :23:28.dismissive of Silvio Berlusconi and his supporters. To the truth you
:23:28. > :23:31.should be Italian. You should live in this country which are the main
:23:31. > :23:35.problems. The media circles have decided that Berlusconi is not
:23:35. > :23:43.acceptable. The other option is you believe that Italians are all
:23:43. > :23:49.stupid. The allegation is he wants political power just for his own
:23:49. > :23:52.self-interest? My experience of the man is if he had looked at his own
:23:52. > :23:55.personal interest he would have been far, far away from politics.
:23:56. > :24:02.That is exactly the contrary of what he decided to do. Wouldn't he
:24:02. > :24:07.have been in jail if he hadn't been in politics? In jail, no way. All
:24:07. > :24:16.the rest about personal interests in politics, again, I have seen the
:24:16. > :24:19.country. I have seen that he's been profoundly hurt by his decision of
:24:19. > :24:27.getting into politics, open face. You can do politics in two
:24:27. > :24:32.different ways. You can put your face on and, how do you say, work
:24:32. > :24:37.openly and clearly, and make your proposition to the country. As you
:24:37. > :24:41.are, or you can do politics in a second line, hidden. That is
:24:41. > :24:46.something that is quite common in Italy. I very much appreciate the
:24:46. > :24:51.fact that he's been very open since the very beginning.
:24:52. > :24:55.Mr Berlusconi is unlikely to win these elections. But this is just
:24:55. > :24:59.another chapter in the long relationship between Silvio
:25:00. > :25:03.Berlusconi and the Italian people. Following the vote, he will remain
:25:03. > :25:12.a strong presence in the Italian parliament, on Italian television
:25:12. > :25:16.and on the streets of Italy. The world knows that Oscar Pistorius is
:25:16. > :25:20.on trial for murder, but today we found out that so is the lead
:25:20. > :25:24.detective in the case, Hilton Botha. Who has been central to the
:25:24. > :25:28.prosecution. Now Detective Botha has been suspended while he fights
:25:28. > :25:32.his own murder charge. After allegedly firing on a mini-bus
:25:33. > :25:36.containing seven people. All this comes as he's also accused of
:25:36. > :25:41.contaminating the crime scene, getting evidence out of witness
:25:41. > :25:45.wrongly, and generally being out of his depth, in the most high-profile
:25:45. > :25:50.case in South Africa for years. Day three of the Oscar Pistorius bail
:25:50. > :25:54.hearing. It has begun to look more like a full trial, and a media
:25:54. > :26:00.circus that has enthralled South Africa and the world. Today's twist
:26:00. > :26:06.being that Detective Hilton Botha, who until now led the inquiry, has
:26:06. > :26:09.been replaced. It became known that he himself is facing seven charges
:26:09. > :26:13.of attempted murder, for apparently opening fire on a mini-bus full of
:26:13. > :26:16.passengers last year. Charges against him have been dropped and
:26:16. > :26:23.reinstated. The police urgently tried to rescue the situation.
:26:23. > :26:33.Today I have come to report to you that the leader of the team is the
:26:33. > :26:38.top detective in Subs. That is Lieutenant General Moonoo. He heads
:26:38. > :26:45.the portfolio. I have also said to you that he will be collaborating
:26:45. > :26:50.with the Head of Police, the provincial commissioner to ensure
:26:50. > :26:55.that they put together a team that is formidable to do this job.
:26:55. > :27:01.it is a development that naturally raises concerns about South African
:27:01. > :27:05.justice. Certainly to be caught in a situation, the prosecutor himself,
:27:05. > :27:12.or the investigating officer himself is facing murder charges is
:27:12. > :27:20.most undesirable. Clearly that shows a malfunctioning in the
:27:20. > :27:25.justice system. This is the latest setback for a prosecution team that
:27:25. > :27:28.seems increasingly in disarray. The prosecution accused Pistorius of
:27:28. > :27:36.pre-meditated murder. He said he fired because he thought there was
:27:37. > :27:40.Anne truder. The now replaced -- an intrude ear, the now replacement
:27:40. > :27:44.for Botha. He had amended his testimony after the defence argued
:27:44. > :27:48.the witnesses he took evidence from were too far away. The prosecution
:27:48. > :27:53.say the police lost track of ambition found in the house. He was
:27:53. > :27:57.also accused of not wearing protective clothing on the crime
:27:57. > :28:02.scene. It is argued that South African police have problems.
:28:02. > :28:07.detectives are facing huge caseloads, it is not uncommon for a
:28:07. > :28:12.detective for carry between 50-100 case dockets at one time. They
:28:12. > :28:17.don't have the facilities needed for their job. They share cars,
:28:17. > :28:19.many are not computer literate. They wait for a long time to get
:28:19. > :28:23.any evidence into the forensic laboratories and back.
:28:23. > :28:26.Pistorius case has been played out in very great detail in the South
:28:26. > :28:29.African press, and on Twitter and other social media sites. With
:28:29. > :28:33.parts of the media initially suggesting he must be guilty.
:28:33. > :28:37.Leading to claims that evidence has been leaked and his right to a fair
:28:37. > :28:42.trial had been undermined. I do worry that there was a rush to
:28:42. > :28:45.convict him. In the public arena and the media in particular in the
:28:45. > :28:52.last few days. You know, when he came to present his case in court,
:28:52. > :28:58.in the last day or two, it became clearer than his guilt was not that
:28:58. > :29:04.clear. That it was at least disputed. So I do think that in
:29:04. > :29:09.terms of assuming his innocence until proven guilty there has been
:29:09. > :29:15.some prejudicial coverage. Britain the press would be accused
:29:15. > :29:19.of breaking sududecy rules, why not in South African? For one thing
:29:19. > :29:22.there is no jury system in the country. It was abolished in 1969
:29:22. > :29:26.in the apartheid era. It is argued that judges are less likely than
:29:26. > :29:32.juries to be influenced by what they read in the press. There was a
:29:32. > :29:36.further change in 2007, with the supreme Court of Appeal decision
:29:36. > :29:39.that the right to a fair trial had to be weighed against the right of
:29:39. > :29:43.freedom against expression. means thaw don't have people not
:29:43. > :29:47.trained in law looking at the evidence. Our judges generally will
:29:47. > :29:51.only make decisions based on the evidence before them, and the facts
:29:51. > :29:55.that are presented before them and the law and the precedent that the
:29:55. > :30:01.law interprets that evidence. Of course there are mistakes, we do
:30:01. > :30:05.have problems now and then. These are usually picked up in appeals in
:30:05. > :30:10.the higher courts. Today was good news for Oscar Pistorius and his
:30:10. > :30:15.legal team. After the initial media conslaught, they may feel events
:30:15. > :30:18.are moving their way. And it is argued he may have advantages not
:30:18. > :30:22.enjoyed by other South Africans on murder charges. The conditions on
:30:22. > :30:26.which remand prisoners are awaiting trial if they don't get bail are
:30:26. > :30:31.truly appalling. We have serious overcrowding in our remand prisons.
:30:31. > :30:34.So with Oscar Pistorius, because of his particular conditions and his
:30:34. > :30:42.wealth, you will see the best of the system there. For many other
:30:42. > :30:48.South Africans it is a much, much harsher system. The Oscar Pistorius
:30:48. > :30:53.bail hearing continues tomorrow. For some expert thoughts on how the
:30:53. > :30:59.South African legal process is doing, I'm joined from Cape Town by
:30:59. > :31:04.William King a senior advocate at the Cape Bar, the equivalent of a
:31:04. > :31:10.queens counsel in England. How do you make of the prosecution's
:31:10. > :31:14.handling of this so far, including the lead detective, Hilton Botha?
:31:14. > :31:20.Very unfortunate is the immediate thought. No system of justice could
:31:21. > :31:26.properly deal with something of that magnitude happening to it. The
:31:26. > :31:30.police investigation also. We are not familiar with your system, it
:31:30. > :31:40.does looks a if the prosecution is rushing into this, unprepared. Even
:31:40. > :31:42.
:31:42. > :31:50.though this is a bail hearing. It looks to us a bit like a full trial.
:31:50. > :32:00.Unfortunately it is, because of the Owen news on -- the onus on the
:32:00. > :32:01.
:32:01. > :32:05.defence to prove certain facts that will allow him to come out of jail.
:32:05. > :32:10.Those circumstances are exceptionally difficult to prove.
:32:10. > :32:15.That necessitates a hearing to show those exceptional circumstances.
:32:15. > :32:19.Oscar Pistorius has tried to show that the state case is weak. He
:32:19. > :32:24.will in all likelihood, in due course, be acquitted or found
:32:24. > :32:29.guilty of a lesser offence. That would justify him being released on
:32:29. > :32:32.bail. I just wondered under South African law, how bad it looks for
:32:32. > :32:42.Mr Pistorius. That he shot through a door with someone at the other
:32:42. > :32:45.side in his own home? The defence would be one of self-defence, I
:32:45. > :32:48.would think. Oscar Pistorius would claim there was an open window. One
:32:48. > :32:53.had claimed through, locked themselves, or hidden in the
:32:53. > :33:00.bathroom, with the intention of attacking him. Unfortunately in
:33:00. > :33:04.South Africa, we have this crime wave. We have people that are
:33:04. > :33:11.getting in and attacking others, and criminals are the order of the
:33:11. > :33:14.day in every day life. So people are paranoid. They take, like Oscar
:33:14. > :33:19.Pistorius, they take extreme measures to safeguard their homes,
:33:19. > :33:25.and these types of accidents happen. Very much like the battered wife
:33:25. > :33:29.syndrome. Where you have a person that is placed in a situation with
:33:29. > :33:33.a violent person around him, around her, and then she is left to deal
:33:33. > :33:41.with this. So therefore she's always called what we would think
:33:41. > :33:46.of as Jane Bond, because she has a license to ki. I would presume
:33:46. > :33:50.Oscar Pistorius would start with the same defence. He is the person
:33:50. > :33:54.under siege, and he's entitled to take extreme measures to defend
:33:54. > :33:57.himself because of what is happening in the broader community.
:33:57. > :34:07.I'm sure everybody in South Africa is aware that the whole world is
:34:07. > :34:07.
:34:07. > :34:11.interested in this and watching it. I wondered how much pressure the
:34:11. > :34:16.South African legal system and people will feel to get this right?
:34:16. > :34:21.I would think extreme pressure. With the world looking on at how
:34:21. > :34:27.the justice system works you would expect that the investigation
:34:27. > :34:33.wouldn't have been rushed. It was. It was quite clearly undercooked.
:34:33. > :34:37.The investigating officer himself would appear to be the wrong choice.
:34:37. > :34:42.Now hopefully the team assembled will do it right. The inherent
:34:42. > :34:46.facts remain the same. So I believe that this case has a long way to
:34:47. > :34:53.run still. I'm sure that in due course the justice system will be
:34:53. > :34:56.able to show that it is up to the task. Thank you very much for
:34:56. > :34:59.talking to us. Before the end of the programme we
:34:59. > :35:02.will have tomorrow's front pages. But first, the Business Secretary,
:35:02. > :35:06.Vincent Cable, has suggested that more women should go into
:35:06. > :35:10.engineering, to help solve the skills shortage in a vital part of
:35:10. > :35:14.the British economy, and listened the idea that engineering is a
:35:14. > :35:18.dirty-hands business for blokess, with a lot of pens hanging out of
:35:18. > :35:28.their shirt pockets. Nine out of ten engineers are men, but need it
:35:28. > :35:29.
:35:29. > :35:33.always be like. That Cars, conveyor-belts and robots,
:35:33. > :35:38.usual boys stuff, or are they? For these teenage girls this is more
:35:38. > :35:41.than just a tour. It is an attempt by Jaguar-Land Rover to encourage
:35:41. > :35:46.young women to consider a career in engineering. Those in the industry
:35:46. > :35:53.say it is suffering from a huge gender imbalance. With men make up
:35:53. > :35:59.more than 90% of its work force. When I say "engineer" to you, what
:35:59. > :36:02.pops up in your mind? Your typical man in their overalls, fixing the
:36:02. > :36:07.washing machine and asking for a cup of tea at the same time. What
:36:07. > :36:11.about you? It is very physical and dirty, maybe sometimes you go home
:36:11. > :36:16.in covered overalls. Sometimes you would see a man. It is very male-
:36:16. > :36:21.dominated, I would say. 20% of the UK's advanced engineering and
:36:22. > :36:28.manufacturing work force is female. Compared to 49% for all other
:36:28. > :36:34.sectors. Only 6% of professional engineers today are women. Research
:36:34. > :36:37.suggests misconceptions about the industry are turning many women off.
:36:37. > :36:43.Those in the industry say they are facing a perception challenge. The
:36:43. > :36:47.image of men in boiler suits and hard hats must be diluted if they
:36:47. > :36:51.want to recruit more women to the sector, they say. How to do that is
:36:51. > :36:56.still puzzling those at the top. Even though firms like this one are
:36:56. > :37:00.employing initiatives to increase the number of women, figures
:37:01. > :37:04.suggest over all they are having a limited impact.
:37:04. > :37:09.Since 208, the number of women working in the industry has gone up
:37:09. > :37:13.by just 1%. It is thought that Britain needs to train more than
:37:13. > :37:18.90,000 scientists and engineers over the next four years to replace
:37:18. > :37:24.those who retire. Trainers say there is a skills shortage with
:37:24. > :37:27.more than 300,000 engineers lacking up-to-date qualifications. Women
:37:27. > :37:31.represent a huge opportunity, because right now today, the data
:37:31. > :37:36.says that only a very percentage of women decide to move into
:37:36. > :37:42.engineering disciplines. So to me it just represents a huge untapped
:37:42. > :37:46.resource of talented people out there that we could attract into
:37:46. > :37:51.engineering in the future. Figures show out of those who study
:37:51. > :37:54.engineering at degree level, 85% of them go into paid work or further I
:37:54. > :37:59.hadcation within -- education within six months of finishing
:37:59. > :38:03.their course. Even so, 50% of those who study it choose not to go into
:38:03. > :38:08.the industry, compared to 30% of their male counterparts. What would
:38:08. > :38:13.more women in the sector bring to the table? Women are excellent
:38:13. > :38:19.problem solvers. They can also add an area of multitasking to really
:38:19. > :38:23.drive problems through. Often when in times when you have a difficult
:38:23. > :38:28.problem to tackle, women can bring a different dynamic to the team
:38:28. > :38:32.that is looking at the issue. That is a very important matter. Vincent
:38:32. > :38:36.Cable used a recent trip to an aviation company to urge more women
:38:36. > :38:39.to join the sector. The UK has one of the lowest proportion of female
:38:39. > :38:43.engineers in Europe. He says the Government is working hard with
:38:43. > :38:48.companies to promote the opportunities available by
:38:48. > :38:51.encouraging more school visits to engineering plants. However, he
:38:51. > :38:55.believes part of the problem is some women don't believe they are
:38:55. > :39:01.capable of doing the job. I think in many cases it is lack of
:39:01. > :39:04.confidence. It is an assumption that this is all not for us, and a
:39:05. > :39:10.bit difficult. Actually young women should be told that they probably
:39:10. > :39:14.have as much, if not more potential than men, and should overcome lack
:39:14. > :39:20.of confidence. I think that's one thing we can do is to say, well,
:39:21. > :39:26.there are lots of very good role models out there.
:39:26. > :39:30.Amid a backdrop of a gloomy economy, the UK's engineering sector is
:39:30. > :39:36.expanding. It turned over more than a trillion pounds in the year
:39:36. > :39:40.ending March 2011, almost 25% of the turnover of all UK businesses.
:39:40. > :39:46.But a failure to recruit the right people here could lead to
:39:46. > :39:51.recruiting from abroad. Those in the industry say at a time of high
:39:51. > :39:56.unemployment, doing that would feel very wrong.
:39:56. > :40:01.Watching that were the skills minister, Matthew Hancock, and Sue
:40:01. > :40:07.Ion, a fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering. What do you think
:40:07. > :40:10.the problem is here? The main problem is the number of girls
:40:10. > :40:12.doing physics in school. You have to get them early enough. Once they
:40:12. > :40:18.get to A-level they have already taken a decision to either take
:40:18. > :40:22.physics or not. Unless you do physics you can't do mechanical
:40:22. > :40:29.engineering, you can't do electrical or civil engineering,
:40:29. > :40:32.can you do chemical engineering, it is not mandatory, especially the
:40:32. > :40:36.bioengineering aspects. Physics is hard, that is true? It is, but it
:40:36. > :40:40.is also very exciting. It is no harder than any of the other
:40:40. > :40:43.scientific disciplines. I think there is a real issue in schools in
:40:43. > :40:48.terms of getting girls particularly interested in physics. We are all
:40:48. > :40:53.agreed there is a problem, it affects boys as well as girls,
:40:53. > :40:57.disproportion nationally girls. What is the Government doing about
:40:57. > :41:01.it? -- decision proportionally girls. What is the Government doing
:41:01. > :41:07.about it? There is a problem, and we can't exclude half of the
:41:07. > :41:12.population from the profession. We have a series of proposals on the
:41:12. > :41:16.daibl. We are working with Rolls- Royce and BAe and Network Rail on a
:41:16. > :41:20.specific project to get girls interested at a younger age. You
:41:20. > :41:25.mentioned A-levels is too late. And also support them through. But it
:41:25. > :41:28.is also about that big kalure change. Getting engineering --
:41:28. > :41:32.culture change. Getting engineering into schools from 14. You can go to
:41:32. > :41:36.college aged 14 instead of 16, and the new university technical
:41:36. > :41:40.colleges are all about getting these sorts of skills in younger so,
:41:40. > :41:49.that we can catch kids when they are enthusiastic. We heard Vincent
:41:50. > :41:56.Cable there say there are a lot of role models. Our guest is one, but
:41:56. > :42:01.can you name others? I will give you a great example, the Apprentice
:42:01. > :42:05.of the Year is called Jenny, working in engineering in Preston.
:42:06. > :42:08.Totally brilliant, and 21 years old. She says because she last gone into
:42:08. > :42:12.an apprenticeship at 18 in engineering, while her friends are
:42:12. > :42:18.at university, she can afford to buy her own car. There are role
:42:18. > :42:21.models out there. Of course when there are far fewer women in senior
:42:21. > :42:27.engineering roles it is incumbent on more of them coming forward to
:42:27. > :42:33.mentor too. Is part of it actually that a lot of teenagers and younger
:42:33. > :42:37.girls don't know what engineering is? They don't know what it is. We
:42:37. > :42:40.heard the prejudice, we heard it there, some bloke fixing the
:42:40. > :42:43.washing machine and demanding a cup of tea? That is a real
:42:43. > :42:47.misconception and we have to do a lot to fix it. A lot of people have
:42:47. > :42:52.no idea what engineering is about. They don't know it is about
:42:52. > :42:58.designing bridges, or about designing and making new heart
:42:58. > :43:01.pacemakers or bionic limbs, or fixing the energy problems by
:43:01. > :43:06.developing new wind or marine turbines or power station, or
:43:06. > :43:15.running new power station, whether nuclear or other. It is about every
:43:15. > :43:19.aspect of life in the 21st century. I noticed, one of the quotes from
:43:19. > :43:22.Professional Engineer Magazine, a woman who loves her job, she says
:43:22. > :43:26.she has been to meetings where because she's the only woman she's
:43:26. > :43:30.thought to be the secretary. There is a degree of that going on that
:43:30. > :43:35.puts women off? That is in the minority rather than the majority.
:43:35. > :43:40.Most industry is more mature in the way it approaches gender within the
:43:40. > :43:44.sector. Other countries do better, don't they. Turkey, women engineers
:43:44. > :43:49.in Turkey in lots of places, China? China and the Eastern Bloc. It is
:43:49. > :43:54.going in the right direction here. Over the last four years there are
:43:54. > :43:59.a third more women applying to go to university to do engineering.
:43:59. > :44:03.The number of apprenticeships in engineering is up 120% in just the
:44:03. > :44:08.last year. Things -- 20% in just the last year. Things are starting
:44:08. > :44:11.to move. I hope the culture block is starting to move. Engineering is
:44:12. > :44:16.problem solving which is something, in my experience, women are
:44:16. > :44:19.brilliant at and just as good as men. And there is absolutely no
:44:19. > :44:24.reason, especially in this high- tech world that there should be any
:44:24. > :44:29.gender divide at all. What was the moment when you said I'm going to
:44:30. > :44:34.be an engineer? I guess I did maths, physics and chemistry. I enjoyed
:44:34. > :44:38.them all. I wasn't sure whether I wanted to pick one out of all of
:44:38. > :44:42.those. For me, at the time a mixture of those subjects, which
:44:42. > :44:45.meant engineering was the right exciting thing for me to do. I have
:44:45. > :44:50.never regreted it. We will leave it there. Thank you very much.
:44:50. > :45:00.Now let's have a quick look at tomorrow morning's front pages. The
:45:00. > :45:00.
:45:00. > :46:22.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 81 seconds
:46:22. > :46:26.That's all from us tonight, we will Good evening. A widespread frost to
:46:26. > :46:30.start the day. We could get as low as a minus 10 in the Highland. More
:46:30. > :46:33.typically minus two or three. With a lot of cloud across the eastern
:46:33. > :46:37.side of the UK. That cloud bringing a few light snow showers. Through
:46:37. > :46:41.the morning and on into the afternoon. Quite grey skies across
:46:41. > :46:45.much of northern England. Cumbria may poke out in something a little
:46:45. > :46:49.bit brighter. There are wintery showers in and around the Wash,
:46:49. > :46:52.nothing too untoward. One or two degrees for Oxford and London under
:46:52. > :46:58.the cloud. It will feel more like minus two or three. A cold
:46:58. > :47:03.afternoon to come here. Cold in the south west in spite of the sunshine.
:47:03. > :47:06.Significant wind chill factor, cold and grey across most of Wales.
:47:06. > :47:11.Cardigan Bay poking out brighter. After grey start in Northern
:47:11. > :47:14.Ireland. Good sunny spells here. After that really cold start to the
:47:14. > :47:17.west of Scotland, it will be sunny for most of the day. Always more
:47:17. > :47:22.cloud in the east of Scotland. Generally speaking a fair bit of
:47:22. > :47:26.cloud around to end the week. A lot of cloud to start the weekend.
:47:26. > :47:29.Notice those temperatures staying at 3, 4 degrees, if you are lucky.
:47:29. > :47:33.There is still a keen breeze blowing across the southern half of
:47:33. > :47:37.the UK. The wind chill factor will come into the play for the first