05/03/2013

:00:05. > :00:08.This programme contains scenes of This programme contains scenes of

:00:08. > :00:09.This programme contains scenes of flash photography from the start.

:00:09. > :00:10.flash photography from the start. flash photography from the start.

:00:10. > :00:11.I promised both the Government and I promised both the Government and

:00:11. > :00:12.I promised both the Government and I promised both the Government and

:00:12. > :00:14.the NHS that I would see that through.

:00:14. > :00:16.through. through.

:00:16. > :00:17.Today the chief executive of the Today the chief executive of the

:00:17. > :00:18.Today the chief executive of the NHS faced down calls for his

:00:18. > :00:19.NHS faced down calls for his NHS faced down calls for his

:00:19. > :00:20.resignation, after his role in the resignation, after his role in the

:00:20. > :00:20.resignation, after his role in the Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really

:00:20. > :00:21.Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really

:00:21. > :00:23.Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really the man to lead the health service

:00:23. > :00:23.the man to lead the health service the man to lead the health service

:00:23. > :00:24.in England through a massive in England through a massive

:00:24. > :00:26.in England through a massive overhaul? We will ask the

:00:26. > :00:28.Government. Government.

:00:28. > :00:30.Government. Government.

:00:30. > :00:30.Within the last hour it has been Within the last hour it has been

:00:30. > :00:31.announced that Venezuela's announced that Venezuela's

:00:31. > :00:32.announced that Venezuela's President, Hugo Chavez, has died.

:00:32. > :00:34.President, Hugo Chavez, has died. President, Hugo Chavez, has died.

:00:34. > :00:35.We will have the latest. We will have the latest.

:00:35. > :00:36.We will have the latest. Also tonight, why are middle-aged

:00:36. > :00:37.Also tonight, why are middle-aged Also tonight, why are middle-aged

:00:37. > :00:39.men so desperate that they take men so desperate that they take

:00:39. > :00:40.men so desperate that they take their own lives. What has gone

:00:40. > :00:41.their own lives. What has gone their own lives. What has gone

:00:41. > :00:42.their own lives. What has gone wrong? When you are there and you

:00:42. > :00:42.wrong? When you are there and you wrong? When you are there and you

:00:42. > :00:44.wrong? When you are there and you have that mental anguish, it is a

:00:44. > :00:45.have that mental anguish, it is a have that mental anguish, it is a

:00:45. > :00:46.cloud, a black cloud that cloud, a black cloud that

:00:46. > :00:47.cloud, a black cloud that completely envelops you. You can't

:00:47. > :00:48.completely envelops you. You can't see through it.

:00:48. > :00:49.see through it. see through it.

:00:49. > :00:50.see through it. What can we do about it? I will

:00:50. > :00:51.What can we do about it? I will What can we do about it? I will

:00:51. > :00:56.What can we do about it? I will speak to the Government and to the

:00:56. > :00:58.Samaritans. Samaritans.

:00:58. > :00:59.Samaritans. # We're an all-time high

:00:59. > :01:01.# We're an all-time high # We're an all-time high

:01:01. > :01:03.# We're an all-time high The Dow Jones hits an all-time high,

:01:03. > :01:03.The Dow Jones hits an all-time high, The Dow Jones hits an all-time high,

:01:03. > :01:04.The Dow Jones hits an all-time high, is it something to cheer or jeer.

:01:04. > :01:05.is it something to cheer or jeer. is it something to cheer or jeer.

:01:05. > :01:14.The markets are going good, but The markets are going good, but

:01:14. > :01:16.where's the growth. where's the growth.

:01:16. > :01:17.where's the growth. Good evening, just before we came

:01:17. > :01:18.Good evening, just before we came Good evening, just before we came

:01:18. > :01:20.Good evening, just before we came on air it was announced that Hugo

:01:20. > :01:21.on air it was announced that Hugo on air it was announced that Hugo

:01:21. > :01:22.Chavez, the fiery populist leader Chavez, the fiery populist leader

:01:22. > :01:23.Chavez, the fiery populist leader of Venezuela has died, after

:01:23. > :01:25.of Venezuela has died, after of Venezuela has died, after

:01:25. > :01:27.suffering from cancer for two years. suffering from cancer for two years.

:01:27. > :01:28.suffering from cancer for two years. suffering from cancer for two years.

:01:28. > :01:30.In power for 14 years, Chavez is In power for 14 years, Chavez is

:01:30. > :01:33.In power for 14 years, Chavez is wildly credited with championing a

:01:33. > :01:35.wildly credited with championing a leftist rerival across Latin

:01:35. > :01:36.America. America.

:01:36. > :01:38.America. America.

:01:38. > :01:38.We have the latest. First of all, We have the latest. First of all,

:01:38. > :01:40.We have the latest. First of all, Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in

:01:40. > :01:43.Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in

:01:43. > :01:45.public since December. It can't be public since December. It can't be

:01:45. > :01:47.public since December. It can't be unexpected, but what has the

:01:47. > :01:48.unexpected, but what has the reaction of Venezuelans within?

:01:48. > :01:49.reaction of Venezuelans within? reaction of Venezuelans within?

:01:49. > :01:51.They have been thinking that, the They have been thinking that, the

:01:51. > :01:51.They have been thinking that, the majority of the people have been

:01:51. > :01:52.majority of the people have been majority of the people have been

:01:52. > :01:53.thinking that Hugo Chavez might thinking that Hugo Chavez might

:01:53. > :01:54.thinking that Hugo Chavez might actually make it through once more.

:01:54. > :01:55.actually make it through once more. actually make it through once more.

:01:55. > :01:57.actually make it through once more. He has been sick, he was sick with

:01:57. > :01:58.He has been sick, he was sick with He has been sick, he was sick with

:01:58. > :02:00.He has been sick, he was sick with cancer for two years, and he came

:02:00. > :02:06.cancer for two years, and he came cancer for two years, and he came

:02:06. > :02:07.back several times saying he had back several times saying he had

:02:07. > :02:09.back several times saying he had been cured. A release last week

:02:09. > :02:10.been cured. A release last week been cured. A release last week

:02:10. > :02:11.showed that the majority of the showed that the majority of the

:02:11. > :02:13.showed that the majority of the people, 60%, thought he might make

:02:13. > :02:14.people, 60%, thought he might make people, 60%, thought he might make

:02:15. > :02:17.it through this time. Reactions it through this time. Reactions

:02:17. > :02:18.it through this time. Reactions will be very different. Chavez

:02:18. > :02:19.will be very different. Chavez will be very different. Chavez

:02:19. > :02:21.supporters are going to be morning supporters are going to be morning

:02:21. > :02:22.supporters are going to be morning supporters are going to be morning

:02:22. > :02:23.the President for a very long time. the President for a very long time.

:02:23. > :02:25.the President for a very long time. At the same time the opposition

:02:25. > :02:26.At the same time the opposition At the same time the opposition

:02:26. > :02:27.At the same time the opposition feels that they are finally rid of

:02:27. > :02:29.feels that they are finally rid of feels that they are finally rid of

:02:29. > :02:30.feels that they are finally rid of one of the worst leaders in the

:02:30. > :02:31.one of the worst leaders in the one of the worst leaders in the

:02:31. > :02:33.one of the worst leaders in the history of the country. He was a

:02:33. > :02:35.history of the country. He was a history of the country. He was a

:02:35. > :02:36.hugely divisive leader, a hero of hugely divisive leader, a hero of

:02:37. > :02:38.hugely divisive leader, a hero of hugely divisive leader, a hero of

:02:38. > :02:40.the poor, and not afraid of some the poor, and not afraid of some

:02:40. > :02:44.pretty strong anti-American rhetoric.

:02:44. > :02:45.rhetoric. rhetoric.

:02:45. > :02:49.That's right, just today the Vice That's right, just today the Vice

:02:49. > :02:50.That's right, just today the Vice President actually used some of the

:02:51. > :02:52.President actually used some of the President actually used some of the

:02:52. > :02:54.Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how

:02:55. > :02:55.Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how

:02:55. > :02:56.it was the western powers who had it was the western powers who had

:02:56. > :02:58.it was the western powers who had inoculated the cancer into the

:02:58. > :03:01.inoculated the cancer into the inoculated the cancer into the

:03:01. > :03:01.President, and he actually expelled President, and he actually expelled

:03:02. > :03:05.President, and he actually expelled two US military attaches, saying

:03:05. > :03:06.two US military attaches, saying two US military attaches, saying

:03:06. > :03:07.they were plotting against the Government.

:03:07. > :03:08.Government. Government.

:03:08. > :03:10.This kind of rhetoric was classic This kind of rhetoric was classic

:03:10. > :03:11.This kind of rhetoric was classic This kind of rhetoric was classic

:03:11. > :03:11.from Mr Chavez, it means that the from Mr Chavez, it means that the

:03:12. > :03:14.from Mr Chavez, it means that the Vice President is now continuing

:03:14. > :03:16.Vice President is now continuing with that tradition.

:03:16. > :03:17.with that tradition. Thank you very much.

:03:18. > :03:18.Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

:03:18. > :03:19.Thank you very much. We will come back to Hugo Chavez's

:03:19. > :03:20.We will come back to Hugo Chavez's We will come back to Hugo Chavez's

:03:20. > :03:22.We will come back to Hugo Chavez's Death In Venice wail la later in

:03:22. > :03:23.the programme. the programme.

:03:23. > :03:24.the programme. the programme.

:03:24. > :03:26.The man who was in charge of The man who was in charge of

:03:26. > :03:27.The man who was in charge of leading the NHS in England, through

:03:27. > :03:28.leading the NHS in England, through leading the NHS in England, through

:03:28. > :03:29.a major overhaul, today faced a major overhaul, today faced

:03:29. > :03:32.a major overhaul, today faced further calls for his resignation.

:03:32. > :03:33.further calls for his resignation. further calls for his resignation.

:03:33. > :03:35.further calls for his resignation. For it was the same man, David

:03:35. > :03:36.For it was the same man, David For it was the same man, David

:03:36. > :03:37.Nicholson, who, according to his Nicholson, who, according to his

:03:37. > :03:38.Nicholson, who, according to his critics, presided over one of the

:03:38. > :03:39.critics, presided over one of the critics, presided over one of the

:03:39. > :03:43.biggest scandals in the health biggest scandals in the health

:03:43. > :03:44.biggest scandals in the health service, the Mid Staffs Foundation

:03:44. > :03:48.service, the Mid Staffs Foundation service, the Mid Staffs Foundation

:03:48. > :03:49.Trust. Today as chief executive of Trust. Today as chief executive of

:03:49. > :03:49.Trust. Today as chief executive of Trust. Today as chief executive of

:03:49. > :03:50.the NHS he told the Commons Select the NHS he told the Commons Select

:03:50. > :03:51.the NHS he told the Commons Select Committee that he has apologised to

:03:51. > :03:52.Committee that he has apologised to Committee that he has apologised to

:03:52. > :03:53.the families affected. He may the families affected. He may

:03:53. > :03:53.the families affected. He may the families affected. He may

:03:53. > :03:54.continue to have the support of the continue to have the support of the

:03:55. > :03:57.continue to have the support of the Prime Minister, but does he have

:03:57. > :04:00.Prime Minister, but does he have Prime Minister, but does he have

:04:00. > :04:01.the confidence of NHS staff and patients.

:04:01. > :04:03.patients. patients.

:04:03. > :04:05.The scandal at Stafford Hospital The scandal at Stafford Hospital

:04:05. > :04:07.The scandal at Stafford Hospital rocked the NHS, years of horrific

:04:07. > :04:08.rocked the NHS, years of horrific rocked the NHS, years of horrific

:04:08. > :04:09.neglect of patients, that the QC neglect of patients, that the QC

:04:09. > :04:10.neglect of patients, that the QC Robert Francis examined and called

:04:10. > :04:12.Robert Francis examined and called Robert Francis examined and called

:04:12. > :04:13.an appalling failure at every level. an appalling failure at every level.

:04:13. > :04:14.an appalling failure at every level. an appalling failure at every level.

:04:14. > :04:15.He deened maed a change in culture He deened maed a change in culture

:04:15. > :04:16.He deened maed a change in culture -- demanded a change in culture

:04:16. > :04:18.-- demanded a change in culture -- demanded a change in culture

:04:18. > :04:21.that puts patients first. Just as that puts patients first. Just as

:04:21. > :04:23.that puts patients first. Just as the NHS in England faces arguably

:04:23. > :04:24.the NHS in England faces arguably the NHS in England faces arguably

:04:24. > :04:25.its biggest-ever shake had-up. This its biggest-ever shake had-up. This

:04:25. > :04:26.its biggest-ever shake had-up. This whole process is supposed to be

:04:26. > :04:27.whole process is supposed to be whole process is supposed to be

:04:27. > :04:28.whole process is supposed to be about finding the best way to run

:04:28. > :04:28.about finding the best way to run about finding the best way to run

:04:28. > :04:29.about finding the best way to run the NHS to benefit us, the patients.

:04:29. > :04:30.the NHS to benefit us, the patients. the NHS to benefit us, the patients.

:04:30. > :04:31.There have been so many There have been so many

:04:31. > :04:32.reorganisations in recent years, reorganisations in recent years,

:04:32. > :04:33.reorganisations in recent years, reorganisations in recent years,

:04:33. > :04:34.yet we still don't seem to have yet we still don't seem to have

:04:34. > :04:35.yet we still don't seem to have found the right prescription. And

:04:35. > :04:37.found the right prescription. And found the right prescription. And

:04:37. > :04:38.found the right prescription. And now, there is about to be yet

:04:38. > :04:39.now, there is about to be yet another major upheaval.

:04:39. > :04:41.another major upheaval. another major upheaval.

:04:41. > :04:43.another major upheaval. And the man in charge of making

:04:43. > :04:44.And the man in charge of making And the man in charge of making

:04:44. > :04:46.that reorganisation work is also that reorganisation work is also

:04:46. > :04:47.that reorganisation work is also the focus of patients' anger over

:04:47. > :04:48.the focus of patients' anger over the focus of patients' anger over

:04:48. > :04:49.Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was

:04:49. > :04:50.Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was responsible for the Trust that ran

:04:50. > :04:51.responsible for the Trust that ran responsible for the Trust that ran

:04:51. > :04:52.responsible for the Trust that ran ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its

:04:52. > :04:54.ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its

:04:54. > :04:55.regional health authority, for part regional health authority, for part

:04:55. > :04:57.regional health authority, for part of the time when patients were

:04:58. > :04:59.of the time when patients were of the time when patients were

:04:59. > :05:01.neglected. He has been chief neglected. He has been chief

:05:01. > :05:03.neglected. He has been chief executive of England's NHS since

:05:03. > :05:04.executive of England's NHS since executive of England's NHS since

:05:04. > :05:05.executive of England's NHS since 22006. In front of MPs at the

:05:05. > :05:06.22006. In front of MPs at the Health Select Committee this

:05:06. > :05:07.Health Select Committee this Health Select Committee this

:05:07. > :05:09.Health Select Committee this morning, this was his moment to set

:05:09. > :05:09.morning, this was his moment to set morning, this was his moment to set

:05:09. > :05:10.morning, this was his moment to set out why he should stay. We will

:05:10. > :05:13.out why he should stay. We will out why he should stay. We will

:05:13. > :05:14.completely change the way in which completely change the way in which

:05:14. > :05:15.we allocate resources and we allocate resources and

:05:15. > :05:17.we allocate resources and incentivise the NHS. And at the

:05:17. > :05:18.incentivise the NHS. And at the incentivise the NHS. And at the

:05:18. > :05:21.incentivise the NHS. And at the same time, we are losing, we have

:05:21. > :05:22.same time, we are losing, we have already lost 13,500 administrative

:05:22. > :05:23.already lost 13,500 administrative already lost 13,500 administrative

:05:23. > :05:25.and managing staff, who have all and managing staff, who have all

:05:25. > :05:26.and managing staff, who have all that corporate memory in them. It

:05:26. > :05:28.that corporate memory in them. It that corporate memory in them. It

:05:28. > :05:31.that corporate memory in them. It is at maximum risk over the next

:05:31. > :05:33.is at maximum risk over the next is at maximum risk over the next

:05:33. > :05:34.is at maximum risk over the next few days. I said two years Agatha I

:05:34. > :05:36.few days. I said two years Agatha I few days. I said two years Agatha I

:05:36. > :05:37.would take the responsibility -- would take the responsibility --

:05:37. > :05:39.would take the responsibility -- ago that I would take the

:05:39. > :05:41.ago that I would take the ago that I would take the

:05:41. > :05:41.responsibility of leading the NHS responsibility of leading the NHS

:05:41. > :05:48.responsibility of leading the NHS through this enormously complex set

:05:48. > :05:49.through this enormously complex set through this enormously complex set

:05:49. > :05:50.of changes. I promised the of changes. I promised the

:05:50. > :05:50.of changes. I promised the of changes. I promised the

:05:51. > :05:52.Government and the NHS I would see Government and the NHS I would see

:05:52. > :05:53.Government and the NHS I would see Government and the NHS I would see

:05:53. > :05:54.it through. Sir David was asked if it through. Sir David was asked if

:05:54. > :05:54.it through. Sir David was asked if it through. Sir David was asked if

:05:55. > :05:57.he was a process man? He spent he was a process man? He spent

:05:57. > :05:58.he was a process man? He spent he was a process man? He spent

:05:58. > :05:59.years at the heart of an NHS system, years at the heart of an NHS system,

:05:59. > :06:00.years at the heart of an NHS system, years at the heart of an NHS system,

:06:00. > :06:02.which he said at the time of the which he said at the time of the

:06:02. > :06:05.which he said at the time of the deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped

:06:05. > :06:06.deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped

:06:06. > :06:07.or capable of monitoring the people or capable of monitoring the people

:06:07. > :06:08.or capable of monitoring the people or capable of monitoring the people

:06:08. > :06:09.in its care. One member of the in its care. One member of the

:06:09. > :06:11.committee, clearly frustrated, committee, clearly frustrated,

:06:11. > :06:14.committee, clearly frustrated, committee, clearly frustrated,

:06:14. > :06:14.asked if he might have spent less asked if he might have spent less

:06:15. > :06:16.asked if he might have spent less time here at the Department of

:06:16. > :06:17.time here at the Department of time here at the Department of

:06:17. > :06:18.Health and more with patients. Health and more with patients.

:06:18. > :06:19.Health and more with patients. Health and more with patients.

:06:19. > :06:19.were there in the middle and you were there in the middle and you

:06:20. > :06:21.were there in the middle and you didn't understand it, we are trying

:06:21. > :06:22.didn't understand it, we are trying didn't understand it, we are trying

:06:22. > :06:24.didn't understand it, we are trying to work out how to make it better

:06:24. > :06:25.to work out how to make it better to work out how to make it better

:06:25. > :06:26.to work out how to make it better for the future F it means you come

:06:26. > :06:27.for the future F it means you come for the future F it means you come

:06:27. > :06:28.for the future F it means you come out of Richmond House and feed a

:06:28. > :06:29.out of Richmond House and feed a out of Richmond House and feed a

:06:29. > :06:30.out of Richmond House and feed a few more patients and see a few

:06:30. > :06:31.few more patients and see a few few more patients and see a few

:06:31. > :06:32.more patients, maybe that is what more patients, maybe that is what

:06:32. > :06:33.more patients, maybe that is what you should be doing. Do you

:06:33. > :06:34.you should be doing. Do you you should be doing. Do you

:06:34. > :06:37.understand my drift. You are a understand my drift. You are a

:06:37. > :06:38.understand my drift. You are a understand my drift. You are a

:06:38. > :06:40.process man? I'm no a process man, process man? I'm no a process man,

:06:40. > :06:41.process man? I'm no a process man, I went round those hospitals in

:06:41. > :06:42.I went round those hospitals in I went round those hospitals in

:06:42. > :06:43.Stafford. I was responsible for 50 Stafford. I was responsible for 50

:06:43. > :06:44.Stafford. I was responsible for 50 hospitals across that place, I

:06:44. > :06:46.hospitals across that place, I hospitals across that place, I

:06:46. > :06:47.probably visited all of them. probably visited all of them.

:06:47. > :06:47.probably visited all of them. probably visited all of them.

:06:47. > :06:49.David said that at the time things David said that at the time things

:06:49. > :06:51.David said that at the time things were going wrong at Stafford, the

:06:51. > :06:52.were going wrong at Stafford, the were going wrong at Stafford, the

:06:52. > :06:53.NHS had no culture of sharing NHS had no culture of sharing

:06:53. > :06:54.NHS had no culture of sharing information. And that he was not

:06:54. > :06:55.information. And that he was not information. And that he was not

:06:55. > :06:57.information. And that he was not aware that death rates at the Trust

:06:57. > :06:59.aware that death rates at the Trust aware that death rates at the Trust

:06:59. > :07:00.were higher than expected. He were higher than expected. He

:07:00. > :07:01.were higher than expected. He didn't blame politicians, but said

:07:01. > :07:02.didn't blame politicians, but said constant reorganisations had

:07:02. > :07:03.constant reorganisations had created confusion about

:07:03. > :07:05.created confusion about created confusion about

:07:05. > :07:09.accountability. And now he's about accountability. And now he's about

:07:09. > :07:10.accountability. And now he's about to oversee the next one. The

:07:10. > :07:12.to oversee the next one. The to oversee the next one. The

:07:12. > :07:13.headline change will see a greater headline change will see a greater

:07:13. > :07:14.headline change will see a greater involvement for GPs. At the moment

:07:15. > :07:15.involvement for GPs. At the moment involvement for GPs. At the moment

:07:15. > :07:16.the Health Secretary sets NHS the Health Secretary sets NHS

:07:16. > :07:19.the Health Secretary sets NHS policies, which the Department of

:07:19. > :07:19.policies, which the Department of policies, which the Department of

:07:19. > :07:21.Health passes down through ten Health passes down through ten

:07:21. > :07:23.strategic health authorities. 152 strategic health authorities. 152

:07:23. > :07:24.strategic health authorities. 152 Primary Care Trusts see those

:07:24. > :07:26.Primary Care Trusts see those policies are implemented,

:07:26. > :07:27.policies are implemented, policies are implemented,

:07:27. > :07:28.controlling the lion's share of controlling the lion's share of

:07:28. > :07:31.controlling the lion's share of spending. From April those Trusts

:07:31. > :07:32.spending. From April those Trusts spending. From April those Trusts

:07:32. > :07:32.will be replaced by 212 Clinical will be replaced by 212 Clinical

:07:33. > :07:34.Commissioning Groupss, largely made Commissioning Groupss, largely made

:07:34. > :07:35.Commissioning Groupss, largely made Commissioning Groupss, largely made

:07:35. > :07:36.up of GPs, who will take over the up of GPs, who will take over the

:07:36. > :07:37.up of GPs, who will take over the responsibility for the majority of

:07:37. > :07:39.responsibility for the majority of responsibility for the majority of

:07:39. > :07:40.local spending. These groups will local spending. These groups will

:07:41. > :07:42.local spending. These groups will ultimately be answerable to a new

:07:42. > :07:42.ultimately be answerable to a new ultimately be answerable to a new

:07:43. > :07:44.NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir

:07:44. > :07:45.NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir David Nicholson at its helm. Which

:07:46. > :07:47.David Nicholson at its helm. Which David Nicholson at its helm. Which

:07:47. > :07:49.will take charge of overseeing the will take charge of overseeing the

:07:49. > :07:50.will take charge of overseeing the NHS from the Department of Health.

:07:51. > :07:51.NHS from the Department of Health. NHS from the Department of Health.

:07:51. > :07:52.Then this afternoon, just weeks Then this afternoon, just weeks

:07:52. > :07:54.Then this afternoon, just weeks away from this wholesale change,

:07:54. > :07:55.away from this wholesale change, away from this wholesale change,

:07:55. > :07:58.the Government announced it will the Government announced it will

:07:58. > :08:02.the Government announced it will rewrite the rules, after medics and

:08:02. > :08:03.rewrite the rules, after medics and rewrite the rules, after medics and

:08:03. > :08:04.Labour claimed this these would Labour claimed this these would

:08:04. > :08:05.allow backdoor privatisation. Sir allow backdoor privatisation. Sir

:08:05. > :08:07.allow backdoor privatisation. Sir allow backdoor privatisation. Sir

:08:07. > :08:09.David said he does have regrets, he David said he does have regrets, he

:08:09. > :08:11.David said he does have regrets, he David said he does have regrets, he

:08:11. > :08:12.says he wished he had fete the cure says he wished he had fete the cure

:08:12. > :08:13.says he wished he had fete the cure says he wished he had fete the cure

:08:13. > :08:14.the NHS group. We need to listen to the NHS group. We need to listen to

:08:14. > :08:16.the NHS group. We need to listen to the NHS group. We need to listen to

:08:16. > :08:18.the frontline, that is all we need the frontline, that is all we need

:08:18. > :08:20.the frontline, that is all we need the frontline, that is all we need

:08:20. > :08:22.to do. What tends to happen, is we to do. What tends to happen, is we

:08:22. > :08:24.have initiative after initiative, have initiative after initiative,

:08:24. > :08:25.have initiative after initiative, all top-down, frontline are so

:08:25. > :08:26.all top-down, frontline are so all top-down, frontline are so

:08:26. > :08:27.confused as to what initiative they confused as to what initiative they

:08:27. > :08:28.confused as to what initiative they confused as to what initiative they

:08:28. > :08:29.are even working to this week. Put are even working to this week. Put

:08:29. > :08:29.are even working to this week. Put are even working to this week. Put

:08:29. > :08:30.it back into the hands of the it back into the hands of the

:08:30. > :08:31.it back into the hands of the frontline staff, nurses and doctors,

:08:31. > :08:32.frontline staff, nurses and doctors, frontline staff, nurses and doctors,

:08:32. > :08:35.frontline staff, nurses and doctors, they are the ones who know what

:08:35. > :08:36.patients need. patients need.

:08:36. > :08:37.patients need. Sir David said's made significant

:08:37. > :08:38.Sir David said's made significant Sir David said's made significant

:08:38. > :08:39.changes as a result of Robert changes as a result of Robert

:08:39. > :08:40.changes as a result of Robert Francis's inquiry, and said the

:08:40. > :08:42.Francis's inquiry, and said the Francis's inquiry, and said the

:08:42. > :08:44.system has never had the sharp system has never had the sharp

:08:44. > :08:45.system has never had the sharp accountability it has now. I think

:08:45. > :08:47.accountability it has now. I think accountability it has now. I think

:08:47. > :08:48.David Nicholson is a good manager. David Nicholson is a good manager.

:08:48. > :08:50.David Nicholson is a good manager. David Nicholson is a good manager.

:08:50. > :08:51.And in some respects he's done an And in some respects he's done an

:08:51. > :08:52.And in some respects he's done an And in some respects he's done an

:08:52. > :08:53.excellent job. But I think the real excellent job. But I think the real

:08:53. > :08:54.excellent job. But I think the real excellent job. But I think the real

:08:54. > :08:55.lesson that has come out of it, is lesson that has come out of it, is

:08:55. > :08:56.lesson that has come out of it, is lesson that has come out of it, is

:08:56. > :08:57.if even a good man and a good if even a good man and a good

:08:57. > :09:00.if even a good man and a good manager like David Nicholson can't

:09:00. > :09:00.manager like David Nicholson can't manager like David Nicholson can't

:09:00. > :09:01.actually run the system effectively, actually run the system effectively,

:09:01. > :09:02.actually run the system effectively, it shows us there is something

:09:02. > :09:03.it shows us there is something it shows us there is something

:09:03. > :09:04.it shows us there is something wrong with the system. What we need

:09:04. > :09:05.wrong with the system. What we need wrong with the system. What we need

:09:05. > :09:07.wrong with the system. What we need in the future is not another David

:09:07. > :09:08.in the future is not another David in the future is not another David

:09:08. > :09:09.in the future is not another David Nicholson, it may not even be David

:09:09. > :09:11.Nicholson, it may not even be David Nicholson, it may not even be David

:09:11. > :09:12.Nicholson himself, it is a Nicholson himself, it is a

:09:13. > :09:13.decentralised system that relies decentralised system that relies

:09:13. > :09:14.decentralised system that relies much more upon patients and local

:09:14. > :09:17.much more upon patients and local much more upon patients and local

:09:17. > :09:18.commissioners to do the job. commissioners to do the job.

:09:18. > :09:19.commissioners to do the job. It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

:09:19. > :09:21.It seems pretty unlikely that Sir It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

:09:21. > :09:22.It seems pretty unlikely that Sir It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

:09:22. > :09:23.David will go now, in the run up to David will go now, in the run up to

:09:23. > :09:25.structural change. Afterall, the structural change. Afterall, the

:09:25. > :09:27.structural change. Afterall, the structural change. Afterall, the

:09:27. > :09:28.plan for the NHS to make �20 plan for the NHS to make �20

:09:28. > :09:30.plan for the NHS to make �20 billion worth of efficiency savings

:09:30. > :09:32.billion worth of efficiency savings billion worth of efficiency savings

:09:32. > :09:33.carries his name, the Nicholson Challenge.

:09:33. > :09:37.Challenge. Challenge.

:09:38. > :09:42.The Health Minister, Norman Lam is with me.

:09:42. > :09:43.with me. with me.

:09:43. > :09:44.with me. -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

:09:44. > :09:45.-- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

:09:45. > :09:46.-- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

:09:46. > :09:49.a man who this went on under on his a man who this went on under on his

:09:49. > :09:50.a man who this went on under on his patch have your confidence?

:09:50. > :09:51.patch have your confidence? patch have your confidence?

:09:51. > :09:52.people questioning on the clip people questioning on the clip

:09:52. > :09:53.people questioning on the clip there got it absolutely right. What

:09:54. > :09:55.there got it absolutely right. What there got it absolutely right. What

:09:55. > :09:56.we need to do is devolve we need to do is devolve

:09:56. > :09:57.we need to do is devolve responsibility so the clinicians on

:09:57. > :09:58.responsibility so the clinicians on the frontline have responsibility

:09:59. > :10:01.the frontline have responsibility the frontline have responsibility

:10:01. > :10:03.for the services. This is the for the services. This is the

:10:03. > :10:05.Nicholson Challenge? The Nicholson Nicholson Challenge? The Nicholson

:10:05. > :10:07.Challenge is about echeefg Challenge is about echeefg

:10:07. > :10:08.efficiency changes across the efficiency changes across the

:10:08. > :10:10.efficiency changes across the system, which is necessary to

:10:10. > :10:11.system, which is necessary to system, which is necessary to

:10:11. > :10:12.ensure the NHS is sustainable. This ensure the NHS is sustainable. This

:10:12. > :10:13.ensure the NHS is sustainable. This ensure the NHS is sustainable. This

:10:13. > :10:14.idea that there is one man or idea that there is one man or

:10:14. > :10:16.idea that there is one man or idea that there is one man or

:10:16. > :10:17.individual in charge of the NHS, is individual in charge of the NHS, is

:10:17. > :10:18.individual in charge of the NHS, is the outdated thinking we have to

:10:18. > :10:20.the outdated thinking we have to the outdated thinking we have to

:10:20. > :10:21.the outdated thinking we have to move on from. Julie Bailey got it

:10:22. > :10:23.move on from. Julie Bailey got it right about frontline clinicians

:10:23. > :10:24.right about frontline clinicians right about frontline clinicians

:10:24. > :10:25.being responsible and in charge. being responsible and in charge.

:10:25. > :10:27.being responsible and in charge. All those deaths in Mid Staffs,

:10:27. > :10:28.All those deaths in Mid Staffs, All those deaths in Mid Staffs,

:10:28. > :10:29.either from abuse or neglect, how either from abuse or neglect, how

:10:29. > :10:30.either from abuse or neglect, how either from abuse or neglect, how

:10:30. > :10:30.can you look relatives in the eye can you look relatives in the eye

:10:31. > :10:32.can you look relatives in the eye can you look relatives in the eye

:10:32. > :10:33.can you look relatives in the eye and say this is the man for the job,

:10:33. > :10:34.and say this is the man for the job, and say this is the man for the job,

:10:34. > :10:34.and say this is the man for the job, to reform the whole of the NHS in

:10:35. > :10:36.to reform the whole of the NHS in to reform the whole of the NHS in

:10:36. > :10:37.to reform the whole of the NHS in England, this is the man? In a way

:10:37. > :10:37.England, this is the man? In a way England, this is the man? In a way

:10:37. > :10:38.England, this is the man? In a way England, this is the man? In a way

:10:38. > :10:39.it would be easy for us to make him it would be easy for us to make him

:10:39. > :10:41.it would be easy for us to make him the fall guy and make him

:10:41. > :10:41.the fall guy and make him the fall guy and make him

:10:41. > :10:43.responsible for everything. I think responsible for everything. I think

:10:43. > :10:44.responsible for everything. I think the problems go much deeper than

:10:44. > :10:46.the problems go much deeper than the problems go much deeper than

:10:46. > :10:47.the problems go much deeper than that. There has to be a bit of

:10:47. > :10:48.that. There has to be a bit of political accountability here. Who

:10:48. > :10:49.political accountability here. Who political accountability here. Who

:10:49. > :10:50.political accountability here. Who was in charge at that time. He was

:10:50. > :10:51.was in charge at that time. He was was in charge at that time. He was

:10:51. > :10:53.was in charge at that time. He was a civil servant carrying out, in a

:10:53. > :10:54.a civil servant carrying out, in a sense, his responsibility, but

:10:54. > :10:55.sense, his responsibility, but sense, his responsibility, but

:10:55. > :10:56.there has to be political there has to be political

:10:56. > :10:58.there has to be political responsibility for the way in which

:10:58. > :10:59.responsibility for the way in which responsibility for the way in which

:10:59. > :11:01.responsibility for the way in which the NHS was run. And the fact that

:11:01. > :11:02.the NHS was run. And the fact that the NHS was run. And the fact that

:11:02. > :11:03.targets in a way trumped everything. targets in a way trumped everything.

:11:03. > :11:04.targets in a way trumped everything. We lost sight of patient care,

:11:04. > :11:05.We lost sight of patient care, We lost sight of patient care,

:11:05. > :11:06.We lost sight of patient care, which has to be the most important

:11:06. > :11:07.which has to be the most important which has to be the most important

:11:07. > :11:08.which has to be the most important thing. A quick one before I finish

:11:08. > :11:09.thing. A quick one before I finish thing. A quick one before I finish

:11:09. > :11:10.thing. A quick one before I finish on this, this is days from this

:11:10. > :11:11.on this, this is days from this on this, this is days from this

:11:11. > :11:12.change, and he himself is saying change, and he himself is saying

:11:12. > :11:13.change, and he himself is saying these are the most critical days

:11:13. > :11:14.these are the most critical days these are the most critical days

:11:14. > :11:16.these are the most critical days for the NHS coming up. Yet there

:11:16. > :11:16.for the NHS coming up. Yet there for the NHS coming up. Yet there

:11:16. > :11:20.for the NHS coming up. Yet there was an abitary dismissal of a key

:11:20. > :11:21.was an abitary dismissal of a key was an abitary dismissal of a key

:11:21. > :11:22.element of the -- an arbitary element of the -- an arbitary

:11:22. > :11:27.element of the -- an arbitary element of the -- an arbitary

:11:27. > :11:29.dismissal of a key element of it. dismissal of a key element of it.

:11:29. > :11:30.dismissal of a key element of it. We gave clear commitments in the

:11:31. > :11:31.We gave clear commitments in the We gave clear commitments in the

:11:31. > :11:32.House of Lords about ensuring that House of Lords about ensuring that

:11:32. > :11:33.Clinical Commissioning Groupss Clinical Commissioning Groupss

:11:33. > :11:34.Clinical Commissioning Groupss Clinical Commissioning Groupss

:11:34. > :11:35.would be in charge of decisions and would be in charge of decisions and

:11:35. > :11:36.would be in charge of decisions and not forced to do competition where

:11:36. > :11:37.not forced to do competition where not forced to do competition where

:11:37. > :11:39.not forced to do competition where it was not appropriate. We want to

:11:39. > :11:41.it was not appropriate. We want to it was not appropriate. We want to

:11:41. > :11:42.make sure that the regulations make sure that the regulations

:11:42. > :11:43.faithfully implement that faithfully implement that

:11:43. > :11:43.faithfully implement that commitment. We will be back with

:11:43. > :11:44.commitment. We will be back with commitment. We will be back with

:11:44. > :11:46.commitment. We will be back with you in a few moments on another

:11:46. > :11:47.you in a few moments on another you in a few moments on another

:11:47. > :11:48.subject. With me is Sean Worth, subject. With me is Sean Worth,

:11:48. > :11:50.subject. With me is Sean Worth, former special adviser to David

:11:50. > :11:51.former special adviser to David former special adviser to David

:11:52. > :11:53.Cameron, who now works at the Cameron, who now works at the

:11:53. > :11:56.Cameron, who now works at the think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in

:11:56. > :11:58.think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in

:11:58. > :12:00.Plymouth is Dr Heather Wood, who Plymouth is Dr Heather Wood, who

:12:00. > :12:01.led the healthcare investigation led the healthcare investigation

:12:01. > :12:03.led the healthcare investigation into the Mid Staffordshire Health

:12:03. > :12:04.into the Mid Staffordshire Health into the Mid Staffordshire Health

:12:04. > :12:05.Trust. It looks like David Trust. It looks like David

:12:05. > :12:07.Trust. It looks like David Trust. It looks like David

:12:07. > :12:09.Nicholson is here to stay? I find Nicholson is here to stay? I find

:12:09. > :12:11.Nicholson is here to stay? I find it extraordinary if the only person

:12:11. > :12:13.it extraordinary if the only person it extraordinary if the only person

:12:13. > :12:16.it extraordinary if the only person thought able to lead the NHS is the

:12:16. > :12:17.thought able to lead the NHS is the thought able to lead the NHS is the

:12:17. > :12:19.one who absolutely personifies the one who absolutely personifies the

:12:19. > :12:20.one who absolutely personifies the command and control culture, indeed

:12:20. > :12:22.command and control culture, indeed command and control culture, indeed

:12:22. > :12:24.command and control culture, indeed the culture of fear that has led

:12:24. > :12:26.the culture of fear that has led the culture of fear that has led

:12:26. > :12:30.our NHS into such troubled waters. our NHS into such troubled waters.

:12:30. > :12:32.our NHS into such troubled waters. I can't believe that the reforms

:12:32. > :12:34.I can't believe that the reforms I can't believe that the reforms

:12:34. > :12:35.are so stablising that only are so stablising that only

:12:35. > :12:38.are so stablising that only Nicholson is the answer. Because

:12:38. > :12:39.Nicholson is the answer. Because Nicholson is the answer. Because

:12:39. > :12:41.the truth is, that people will the truth is, that people will

:12:41. > :12:44.the truth is, that people will the truth is, that people will

:12:44. > :12:45.still be frightened while he is in still be frightened while he is in

:12:45. > :12:46.still be frightened while he is in still be frightened while he is in

:12:46. > :12:47.charge. I feel that. Let me put it charge. I feel that. Let me put it

:12:47. > :12:49.charge. I feel that. Let me put it to Sean Worth, people will be

:12:49. > :12:49.to Sean Worth, people will be to Sean Worth, people will be

:12:49. > :12:51.frightened, people will not have frightened, people will not have

:12:51. > :12:52.frightened, people will not have confidence in Sir David Nicholson?

:12:52. > :12:53.confidence in Sir David Nicholson? confidence in Sir David Nicholson?

:12:53. > :12:54.I'm not going to defend David I'm not going to defend David

:12:54. > :12:54.I'm not going to defend David I'm not going to defend David

:12:54. > :12:56.Nicholson, he needs to look in the Nicholson, he needs to look in the

:12:56. > :12:56.Nicholson, he needs to look in the Nicholson, he needs to look in the

:12:56. > :12:58.mirror and say did I do everything mirror and say did I do everything

:12:58. > :12:59.mirror and say did I do everything mirror and say did I do everything

:12:59. > :12:59.I could to prevent that. I think it I could to prevent that. I think it

:12:59. > :13:01.I could to prevent that. I think it I could to prevent that. I think it

:13:01. > :13:02.has to go much further than that. I has to go much further than that. I

:13:02. > :13:03.has to go much further than that. I think the campaigners, the families

:13:03. > :13:05.think the campaigners, the families think the campaigners, the families

:13:05. > :13:06.think the campaigners, the families of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes,

:13:06. > :13:06.of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes, of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes,

:13:06. > :13:07.of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes, they want their head on a spike but

:13:07. > :13:08.they want their head on a spike but they want their head on a spike but

:13:08. > :13:09.they want their head on a spike but if you look at the public inquiry,

:13:09. > :13:10.if you look at the public inquiry, if you look at the public inquiry,

:13:10. > :13:11.if you look at the public inquiry, if you look at the public inquiry,

:13:11. > :13:12.what it said was it is not just one what it said was it is not just one

:13:12. > :13:14.what it said was it is not just one individual, it is an entire system.

:13:14. > :13:15.individual, it is an entire system. individual, it is an entire system.

:13:15. > :13:17.It is an entire NHS establishment It is an entire NHS establishment

:13:17. > :13:19.It is an entire NHS establishment that denies people choice. It hides

:13:19. > :13:21.that denies people choice. It hides that denies people choice. It hides

:13:21. > :13:21.performance, it doesn't allow you performance, it doesn't allow you

:13:21. > :13:23.performance, it doesn't allow you to find out the comparative

:13:23. > :13:24.to find out the comparative differences between different

:13:24. > :13:25.differences between different differences between different

:13:25. > :13:26.differences between different hospitals, or even GPs, at a local

:13:26. > :13:26.hospitals, or even GPs, at a local hospitals, or even GPs, at a local

:13:26. > :13:28.hospitals, or even GPs, at a local level. This is a straw man, isn't

:13:28. > :13:29.level. This is a straw man, isn't level. This is a straw man, isn't

:13:29. > :13:30.level. This is a straw man, isn't it t you are really going after the

:13:30. > :13:31.it t you are really going after the it t you are really going after the

:13:31. > :13:32.wrong target? We are not going wrong target? We are not going

:13:32. > :13:34.wrong target? We are not going after the wrong target. Where did

:13:34. > :13:35.after the wrong target. Where did after the wrong target. Where did

:13:35. > :13:36.after the wrong target. Where did the system come from? He was at the

:13:36. > :13:37.the system come from? He was at the the system come from? He was at the

:13:37. > :13:38.heart of that system. I don't heart of that system. I don't

:13:38. > :13:39.heart of that system. I don't heart of that system. I don't

:13:39. > :13:40.accept for a minute that he didn't accept for a minute that he didn't

:13:40. > :13:42.accept for a minute that he didn't accept for a minute that he didn't

:13:42. > :13:43.know what was going on. I think know what was going on. I think

:13:43. > :13:44.know what was going on. I think David Nicholson knows if a chief

:13:44. > :13:46.David Nicholson knows if a chief executive sneezes. He certainly

:13:46. > :13:47.executive sneezes. He certainly executive sneezes. He certainly

:13:47. > :13:49.executive sneezes. He certainly knows if they are going to fail on

:13:49. > :13:49.knows if they are going to fail on knows if they are going to fail on

:13:49. > :13:51.finances or targets. It is finances or targets. It is

:13:51. > :13:52.finances or targets. It is finances or targets. It is

:13:52. > :13:53.ridiculous. He is at the heart of ridiculous. He is at the heart of

:13:53. > :13:54.ridiculous. He is at the heart of ridiculous. He is at the heart of

:13:54. > :13:56.it, I believe he did know what was it, I believe he did know what was

:13:56. > :13:58.it, I believe he did know what was it, I believe he did know what was

:13:58. > :14:00.going on. What worries me is this going on. What worries me is this

:14:00. > :14:02.going on. What worries me is this man, who epitomises the type of

:14:02. > :14:04.man, who epitomises the type of ruthless management that means

:14:04. > :14:06.ruthless management that means ruthless management that means

:14:06. > :14:08.succeed at all cost, those costs succeed at all cost, those costs

:14:08. > :14:10.succeed at all cost, those costs were too high for patients. Sean

:14:10. > :14:13.were too high for patients. Sean were too high for patients. Sean

:14:13. > :14:15.were too high for patients. Sean Worth, is there a danger that he is

:14:15. > :14:16.Worth, is there a danger that he is omnipotent, however much the

:14:17. > :14:17.omnipotent, however much the omnipotent, however much the

:14:17. > :14:20.Government talk about the system, Government talk about the system,

:14:20. > :14:21.Government talk about the system, Government talk about the system,

:14:22. > :14:23.it all comes back to command and it all comes back to command and

:14:23. > :14:24.control? Any seriously senior control? Any seriously senior

:14:25. > :14:26.control? Any seriously senior politicians are not calling for

:14:26. > :14:27.politicians are not calling for politicians are not calling for

:14:27. > :14:28.hissed head. He is incredibly hissed head. He is incredibly

:14:28. > :14:28.knowledgeable about the system. knowledgeable about the system.

:14:28. > :14:30.knowledgeable about the system. What I found really interesting

:14:30. > :14:30.What I found really interesting What I found really interesting

:14:30. > :14:32.What I found really interesting today was when he went through his

:14:32. > :14:33.today was when he went through his today was when he went through his

:14:33. > :14:33.evidence with the MPs in this evidence with the MPs in this

:14:33. > :14:34.evidence with the MPs in this committee, it was very clear that

:14:34. > :14:35.committee, it was very clear that committee, it was very clear that

:14:35. > :14:36.everybody is pointing the blame at everybody is pointing the blame at

:14:36. > :14:37.everybody is pointing the blame at everybody is pointing the blame at

:14:37. > :14:39.him, and he tried as far as he him, and he tried as far as he

:14:40. > :14:40.him, and he tried as far as he could, he couldn't quite do it,

:14:40. > :14:41.could, he couldn't quite do it, could, he couldn't quite do it,

:14:41. > :14:42.could, he couldn't quite do it, because he a civil servant, he was

:14:42. > :14:43.because he a civil servant, he was because he a civil servant, he was

:14:43. > :14:44.saying he's acting on behalf of saying he's acting on behalf of

:14:44. > :14:46.saying he's acting on behalf of politicians who set the framework.

:14:46. > :14:48.politicians who set the framework. politicians who set the framework.

:14:48. > :14:50.And the astonishing thing for me, And the astonishing thing for me,

:14:50. > :14:51.And the astonishing thing for me, as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody

:14:51. > :14:52.as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody

:14:52. > :14:53.is pointing the finger who anyone is pointing the finger who anyone

:14:53. > :14:54.is pointing the finger who anyone is pointing the finger who anyone

:14:54. > :14:55.who was actually in charge of the who was actually in charge of the

:14:55. > :14:57.who was actually in charge of the policy. Which is a political issue.

:14:57. > :14:58.policy. Which is a political issue. policy. Which is a political issue.

:14:58. > :15:00.That is interesting, isn't it. It That is interesting, isn't it. It

:15:00. > :15:02.That is interesting, isn't it. It was extraordinary that it rocked

:15:02. > :15:03.was extraordinary that it rocked was extraordinary that it rocked

:15:03. > :15:04.the NHS. People need to understand the NHS. People need to understand

:15:04. > :15:05.the NHS. People need to understand that Mid Staffs was a really

:15:05. > :15:06.that Mid Staffs was a really that Mid Staffs was a really

:15:06. > :15:07.watershed moment for the NHS, and watershed moment for the NHS, and

:15:07. > :15:10.watershed moment for the NHS, and relatives still don't feel they

:15:10. > :15:10.relatives still don't feel they relatives still don't feel they

:15:11. > :15:11.have had redress, or resolution? have had redress, or resolution?

:15:11. > :15:12.have had redress, or resolution? have had redress, or resolution?

:15:12. > :15:13.This is why it is so important not This is why it is so important not

:15:13. > :15:14.This is why it is so important not This is why it is so important not

:15:15. > :15:16.to focus on one individual. If the to focus on one individual. If the

:15:16. > :15:17.to focus on one individual. If the to focus on one individual. If the

:15:17. > :15:17.guy has got problems then he should guy has got problems then he should

:15:18. > :15:18.guy has got problems then he should guy has got problems then he should

:15:18. > :15:19.go, but I think he will have to go, but I think he will have to

:15:19. > :15:21.go, but I think he will have to look at himself and politicians

:15:21. > :15:22.look at himself and politicians look at himself and politicians

:15:22. > :15:23.look at himself and politicians have to do that. We need more voice

:15:23. > :15:24.have to do that. We need more voice have to do that. We need more voice

:15:25. > :15:26.in the NHS, much more information in the NHS, much more information

:15:26. > :15:27.in the NHS, much more information in the NHS, much more information

:15:27. > :15:29.about what it does, and the results about what it does, and the results

:15:29. > :15:30.about what it does, and the results it delivers for patients. I would

:15:30. > :15:32.it delivers for patients. I would say more competition between

:15:32. > :15:34.say more competition between say more competition between

:15:34. > :15:36.different providers, if you don't different providers, if you don't

:15:36. > :15:37.different providers, if you don't like one, like Mid Staffs. You

:15:37. > :15:38.like one, like Mid Staffs. You like one, like Mid Staffs. You

:15:39. > :15:40.could go somewhere else. You don't could go somewhere else. You don't

:15:40. > :15:41.could go somewhere else. You don't could go somewhere else. You don't

:15:41. > :15:42.like the roll back from the element like the roll back from the element

:15:42. > :15:45.like the roll back from the element of xetti, which you regard as

:15:45. > :15:46.of xetti, which you regard as of xetti, which you regard as

:15:46. > :15:46.simply being political? You mean simply being political? You mean

:15:46. > :15:48.simply being political? You mean the alleged U-turn on competition

:15:48. > :15:48.the alleged U-turn on competition the alleged U-turn on competition

:15:48. > :15:49.the alleged U-turn on competition today. The fact about that is there

:15:49. > :15:50.today. The fact about that is there today. The fact about that is there

:15:50. > :15:51.was a competition regime put in was a competition regime put in

:15:51. > :15:53.was a competition regime put in place by the previous Government,

:15:53. > :15:53.place by the previous Government, place by the previous Government,

:15:53. > :15:54.which did expose the NHS to which did expose the NHS to

:15:54. > :15:56.which did expose the NHS to competition for many years, that is

:15:56. > :15:59.competition for many years, that is competition for many years, that is

:15:59. > :16:00.fine. The exact is, however, that fine. The exact is, however, that

:16:00. > :16:01.fine. The exact is, however, that fine. The exact is, however, that

:16:01. > :16:02.the firm that is can come in and the firm that is can come in and

:16:02. > :16:03.the firm that is can come in and the firm that is can come in and

:16:03. > :16:03.try to compete in the NHS, got try to compete in the NHS, got

:16:03. > :16:04.try to compete in the NHS, got try to compete in the NHS, got

:16:04. > :16:05.signed off by a Secretary of State, signed off by a Secretary of State,

:16:05. > :16:06.signed off by a Secretary of State, a politician, rather than having

:16:06. > :16:07.a politician, rather than having a politician, rather than having

:16:07. > :16:08.a politician, rather than having a politician, rather than having

:16:08. > :16:09.that out in the open and done by a that out in the open and done by a

:16:09. > :16:09.that out in the open and done by a regulator. That is what the

:16:09. > :16:12.regulator. That is what the regulator. That is what the

:16:12. > :16:13.regulations were supposed to do regulations were supposed to do

:16:13. > :16:14.nobody quite understands that. nobody quite understands that.

:16:14. > :16:15.nobody quite understands that. Heather Wood what Sean Worth is

:16:15. > :16:16.Heather Wood what Sean Worth is Heather Wood what Sean Worth is

:16:16. > :16:16.Heather Wood what Sean Worth is saying that really in the end it is

:16:16. > :16:17.saying that really in the end it is saying that really in the end it is

:16:17. > :16:18.saying that really in the end it is saying that really in the end it is

:16:18. > :16:19.not down to one man, it is down to not down to one man, it is down to

:16:19. > :16:21.not down to one man, it is down to a whole host of reforms,

:16:21. > :16:22.a whole host of reforms, essentially by politicians, and

:16:22. > :16:22.essentially by politicians, and essentially by politicians, and

:16:22. > :16:23.essentially by politicians, and really you have just got to get on

:16:23. > :16:24.really you have just got to get on really you have just got to get on

:16:24. > :16:26.really you have just got to get on and deal with it? What I would say

:16:26. > :16:28.and deal with it? What I would say and deal with it? What I would say

:16:28. > :16:29.and deal with it? What I would say is we have nurses up before the NMC,

:16:29. > :16:30.is we have nurses up before the NMC, is we have nurses up before the NMC,

:16:30. > :16:32.I don't particularly want to plead I don't particularly want to plead

:16:32. > :16:33.I don't particularly want to plead their case, but they didn't fix

:16:33. > :16:35.their case, but they didn't fix their case, but they didn't fix

:16:35. > :16:36.those targets, or bully people on those targets, or bully people on

:16:36. > :16:37.those targets, or bully people on those targets, or bully people on

:16:37. > :16:38.their own. They did it because they their own. They did it because they

:16:38. > :16:39.their own. They did it because they their own. They did it because they

:16:39. > :16:40.were told to do it by their manager, were told to do it by their manager,

:16:40. > :16:40.were told to do it by their manager, were told to do it by their manager,

:16:40. > :16:41.were told to do it by their manager, who were told to do it by the SHA,

:16:42. > :16:42.who were told to do it by the SHA, who were told to do it by the SHA,

:16:42. > :16:43.who were told to do it by the SHA, who were told to do it by the

:16:43. > :16:45.who were told to do it by the who were told to do it by the

:16:45. > :16:47.Department of Health. We have been Department of Health. We have been

:16:47. > :16:49.Department of Health. We have been through this with Bristol. We need

:16:49. > :16:51.through this with Bristol. We need through this with Bristol. We need

:16:51. > :16:53.to get management back with to get management back with

:16:53. > :16:55.to get management back with clinicians and we need managers who

:16:55. > :16:57.clinicians and we need managers who clinicians and we need managers who

:16:57. > :16:58.support patients, not who run a support patients, not who run a

:16:58. > :17:02.support patients, not who run a service regardless of the cost to

:17:02. > :17:03.patients. patients.

:17:03. > :17:04.patients. Thank you very much indeed. Still

:17:04. > :17:06.Thank you very much indeed. Still Thank you very much indeed. Still

:17:06. > :17:07.Thank you very much indeed. Still to come on the programme, we will

:17:07. > :17:08.to come on the programme, we will to come on the programme, we will

:17:08. > :17:09.have more on the Venezuelan have more on the Venezuelan

:17:09. > :17:10.have more on the Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez, whose death

:17:10. > :17:11.President, Hugo Chavez, whose death President, Hugo Chavez, whose death

:17:11. > :17:12.was announced a short time ago. was announced a short time ago.

:17:12. > :17:13.was announced a short time ago. Suicide is an issue not often

:17:13. > :17:15.Suicide is an issue not often Suicide is an issue not often

:17:15. > :17:16.discussed in our society. That, discussed in our society. That,

:17:16. > :17:17.discussed in our society. That, perhaps, is one reason why those

:17:17. > :17:18.perhaps, is one reason why those perhaps, is one reason why those

:17:18. > :17:21.perhaps, is one reason why those who contemplate it find it so hard

:17:21. > :17:22.who contemplate it find it so hard to seek help.

:17:22. > :17:23.to seek help. to seek help.

:17:23. > :17:24.And recent figures from the office And recent figures from the office

:17:24. > :17:25.And recent figures from the office of national statics, show in

:17:25. > :17:27.of national statics, show in particular suicides amongst middle-

:17:27. > :17:29.particular suicides amongst middle- particular suicides amongst middle-

:17:29. > :17:30.aged men are on the rise. aged men are on the rise.

:17:30. > :17:31.aged men are on the rise. Tonight we are talking about these

:17:31. > :17:32.Tonight we are talking about these Tonight we are talking about these

:17:32. > :17:33.suicides, and the question is why suicides, and the question is why

:17:33. > :17:34.suicides, and the question is why suicides, and the question is why

:17:34. > :17:35.and what can be done to bring it and what can be done to bring it

:17:35. > :17:36.and what can be done to bring it down. Historically, at least twice

:17:36. > :17:37.down. Historically, at least twice down. Historically, at least twice

:17:37. > :17:39.down. Historically, at least twice as many men and women have taken

:17:39. > :17:40.as many men and women have taken as many men and women have taken

:17:40. > :17:41.their own lives, a gap that's their own lives, a gap that's

:17:41. > :17:43.their own lives, a gap that's widened to nearly three-times as

:17:43. > :17:45.widened to nearly three-times as many in recent years.

:17:45. > :17:47.many in recent years. many in recent years.

:17:47. > :17:48.Over the past 30 years the Over the past 30 years the

:17:49. > :17:49.Over the past 30 years the instances of female suicide have

:17:49. > :17:50.instances of female suicide have instances of female suicide have

:17:50. > :17:51.fallen further and more steadily fallen further and more steadily

:17:51. > :17:53.fallen further and more steadily fallen further and more steadily

:17:53. > :17:56.than those of men. The rate of male than those of men. The rate of male

:17:56. > :17:57.than those of men. The rate of male suicides is highest in the 30-44

:17:57. > :17:58.suicides is highest in the 30-44 suicides is highest in the 30-44

:17:58. > :18:00.age bracket. However, from 2007 age bracket. However, from 2007

:18:00. > :18:02.age bracket. However, from 2007 age bracket. However, from 2007

:18:02. > :18:04.there has been a marked increase in there has been a marked increase in

:18:04. > :18:05.there has been a marked increase in the 45-59 age group, which unlike

:18:05. > :18:09.the 45-59 age group, which unlike the 45-59 age group, which unlike

:18:09. > :18:10.any other age ranges hasn't dropped any other age ranges hasn't dropped

:18:10. > :18:12.any other age ranges hasn't dropped any other age ranges hasn't dropped

:18:12. > :18:16.since. So what is driving this male since. So what is driving this male

:18:16. > :18:17.since. So what is driving this male despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's

:18:17. > :18:19.despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's

:18:19. > :18:20.Hour presenter to break down the taboo.

:18:20. > :18:22.taboo. taboo.

:18:22. > :18:23.taboo. It is very hard for men just simply

:18:23. > :18:27.It is very hard for men just simply It is very hard for men just simply

:18:27. > :18:29.to say, I need help. to say, I need help.

:18:29. > :18:30.to say, I need help. to say, I need help.

:18:30. > :18:31.It creeps up on you so slowly until It creeps up on you so slowly until

:18:31. > :18:32.It creeps up on you so slowly until It creeps up on you so slowly until

:18:32. > :18:38.all of a sudden, you know, you are all of a sudden, you know, you are

:18:38. > :18:39.at the edge. at the edge.

:18:39. > :18:39.at the edge. at the edge.

:18:39. > :18:41.He talked to his best friend half He talked to his best friend half

:18:41. > :18:42.He talked to his best friend half He talked to his best friend half

:18:42. > :18:43.an hour before he died, and he gave an hour before he died, and he gave

:18:43. > :18:47.an hour before he died, and he gave nothing away. We don't do this

:18:47. > :18:49.enough. enough.

:18:49. > :18:50.enough. Gather to talk openly about male

:18:50. > :18:57.Gather to talk openly about male emotional vunabilities, the

:18:57. > :18:57.emotional vunabilities, the emotional vunabilities, the

:18:57. > :18:59.emotional vunabilities, the pressures we face. To shed a little

:18:59. > :19:01.pressures we face. To shed a little pressures we face. To shed a little

:19:01. > :19:02.light on this darkest of statistics, light on this darkest of statistics,

:19:02. > :19:04.light on this darkest of statistics, that men are three-times more

:19:04. > :19:05.that men are three-times more that men are three-times more

:19:05. > :19:06.that men are three-times more likely to take their own lives. I

:19:06. > :19:08.likely to take their own lives. I likely to take their own lives. I

:19:08. > :19:08.have brought together a group with have brought together a group with

:19:08. > :19:12.have brought together a group with direct experience, men who have

:19:12. > :19:14.attempted suicide. attempted suicide.

:19:14. > :19:19.attempted suicide. The families left behind. And

:19:19. > :19:21.The families left behind. And mental health professionals.

:19:21. > :19:21.mental health professionals. mental health professionals.

:19:21. > :19:25.mental health professionals. It is coming up for a year almost

:19:25. > :19:26.It is coming up for a year almost It is coming up for a year almost

:19:27. > :19:30.It is coming up for a year almost to the week since you attempt today

:19:30. > :19:32.to the week since you attempt today to the week since you attempt today

:19:32. > :19:33.to the week since you attempt today to the week since you attempt today

:19:33. > :19:35.take your own life. It is, it is -- take your own life. It is, it is --

:19:35. > :19:36.take your own life. It is, it is -- take your own life. It is, it is --

:19:36. > :19:38.Attempted to take your own life. Attempted to take your own life.

:19:38. > :19:40.Attempted to take your own life. Attempted to take your own life.

:19:40. > :19:41.is, the mind is a funny thing. It is, the mind is a funny thing. It

:19:41. > :19:42.is, the mind is a funny thing. It is funny how you cannot forget

:19:42. > :19:43.is funny how you cannot forget is funny how you cannot forget

:19:43. > :19:44.is funny how you cannot forget things but put things to one side.

:19:44. > :19:45.things but put things to one side. things but put things to one side.

:19:45. > :19:46.things but put things to one side. When you say it like that it hits

:19:46. > :19:54.When you say it like that it hits When you say it like that it hits

:19:54. > :19:55.When you say it like that it hits you, I feel that very raw. It is

:19:55. > :19:56.you, I feel that very raw. It is you, I feel that very raw. It is

:19:56. > :19:58.amazing the progress you can make amazing the progress you can make

:19:58. > :19:59.amazing the progress you can make amazing the progress you can make

:19:59. > :20:01.in a year. What was going on with in a year. What was going on with

:20:01. > :20:01.in a year. What was going on with in a year. What was going on with

:20:02. > :20:05.in a year. What was going on with me, I had set up a new company, we

:20:05. > :20:05.me, I had set up a new company, we me, I had set up a new company, we

:20:05. > :20:08.me, I had set up a new company, we had gone through IVF, which is a

:20:08. > :20:13.had gone through IVF, which is a had gone through IVF, which is a

:20:13. > :20:16.very stressful thing to go through, very stressful thing to go through,

:20:16. > :20:21.very stressful thing to go through, very stressful thing to go through,

:20:21. > :20:24.very stressful thing to go through, I had a court case that I was being

:20:24. > :20:27.I had a court case that I was being I had a court case that I was being

:20:27. > :20:31.prosecuted for assault. My marriage prosecuted for assault. My marriage

:20:31. > :20:32.prosecuted for assault. My marriage prosecuted for assault. My marriage

:20:32. > :20:34.was not in a good place. If you was not in a good place. If you

:20:34. > :20:35.was not in a good place. If you was not in a good place. If you

:20:35. > :20:38.were to write down all those things were to write down all those things

:20:38. > :20:40.were to write down all those things were to write down all those things

:20:40. > :20:43.on a piece of paper even for the on a piece of paper even for the

:20:43. > :20:44.strongest people actually strongest people actually

:20:44. > :20:48.strongest people actually everything was crumbling apart. I

:20:48. > :20:52.everything was crumbling apart. I everything was crumbling apart. I

:20:52. > :20:54.couldn't cope. I tried to commit couldn't cope. I tried to commit

:20:54. > :20:54.couldn't cope. I tried to commit couldn't cope. I tried to commit

:20:54. > :20:57.suicide. It is very hard for men suicide. It is very hard for men

:20:57. > :21:03.suicide. It is very hard for men suicide. It is very hard for men

:21:03. > :21:04.just simply to say I need help. just simply to say I need help.

:21:04. > :21:05.just simply to say I need help. just simply to say I need help.

:21:05. > :21:07.Because men are meant to be tough. Because men are meant to be tough.

:21:07. > :21:09.Because men are meant to be tough. Sam's story is incredibly common,

:21:09. > :21:10.Sam's story is incredibly common, Sam's story is incredibly common,

:21:10. > :21:11.Sam's story is incredibly common, and I think that there will be

:21:11. > :21:13.and I think that there will be and I think that there will be

:21:13. > :21:14.thousands of men out there seeing thousands of men out there seeing

:21:14. > :21:15.thousands of men out there seeing that and knowing exactly where you

:21:16. > :21:17.that and knowing exactly where you that and knowing exactly where you

:21:17. > :21:19.that and knowing exactly where you that and knowing exactly where you

:21:19. > :21:20.have been. There is 12 men a day in have been. There is 12 men a day in

:21:20. > :21:21.have been. There is 12 men a day in have been. There is 12 men a day in

:21:21. > :21:22.the UK take their lives. That is the UK take their lives. That is

:21:22. > :21:23.the UK take their lives. That is the UK take their lives. That is

:21:23. > :21:24.for 2011. The last five years has for 2011. The last five years has

:21:24. > :21:26.for 2011. The last five years has seen a sharp rise in suicides

:21:26. > :21:28.seen a sharp rise in suicides seen a sharp rise in suicides

:21:28. > :21:29.seen a sharp rise in suicides amongst men in their 40s and early

:21:29. > :21:30.amongst men in their 40s and early amongst men in their 40s and early

:21:30. > :21:31.amongst men in their 40s and early 50s. In these times it is about

:21:31. > :21:32.50s. In these times it is about 50s. In these times it is about

:21:32. > :21:35.50s. In these times it is about economic loss. You know, loss of a

:21:35. > :21:35.economic loss. You know, loss of a economic loss. You know, loss of a

:21:35. > :21:38.economic loss. You know, loss of a job, debt, loss of a career, the

:21:38. > :21:39.job, debt, loss of a career, the job, debt, loss of a career, the

:21:39. > :21:40.profile of people who complete profile of people who complete

:21:40. > :21:41.profile of people who complete suicide is very different from the

:21:41. > :21:42.suicide is very different from the suicide is very different from the

:21:42. > :21:43.suicide is very different from the profile of people who come and look

:21:43. > :21:46.profile of people who come and look profile of people who come and look

:21:46. > :21:46.for help. There is this population for help. There is this population

:21:46. > :21:47.for help. There is this population out there that psychiatrists like

:21:48. > :21:49.out there that psychiatrists like out there that psychiatrists like

:21:49. > :21:50.out there that psychiatrists like myself don't get to see. The first

:21:50. > :21:50.myself don't get to see. The first myself don't get to see. The first

:21:51. > :21:52.myself don't get to see. The first family might hear of it is their

:21:52. > :21:53.family might hear of it is their family might hear of it is their

:21:53. > :21:54.family might hear of it is their life is lost. I can only speak for

:21:54. > :21:56.life is lost. I can only speak for life is lost. I can only speak for

:21:56. > :21:58.life is lost. I can only speak for Guy as I knew him. I often think

:21:58. > :22:00.Guy as I knew him. I often think Guy as I knew him. I often think

:22:00. > :22:01.had he spoken to people, friend, had he spoken to people, friend,

:22:01. > :22:02.had he spoken to people, friend, had he spoken to people, friend,

:22:03. > :22:05.you know, how different it would be. you know, how different it would be.

:22:05. > :22:06.you know, how different it would be. you know, how different it would be.

:22:06. > :22:14.you know, how different it would be. How long ago did he die? It will be

:22:14. > :22:15.How long ago did he die? It will be How long ago did he die? It will be

:22:15. > :22:17.six years this June. It hadn't six years this June. It hadn't

:22:17. > :22:17.six years this June. It hadn't six years this June. It hadn't

:22:17. > :22:19.crossed my mind, we did end up crossed my mind, we did end up

:22:19. > :22:20.crossed my mind, we did end up crossed my mind, we did end up

:22:20. > :22:21.separating, I know he did go down separating, I know he did go down

:22:21. > :22:23.separating, I know he did go down hill from there, and he became

:22:23. > :22:24.hill from there, and he became hill from there, and he became

:22:24. > :22:29.hill from there, and he became quite depressed, but he was very up

:22:29. > :22:30.quite depressed, but he was very up quite depressed, but he was very up

:22:30. > :22:31.and down. He had mentioned it and down. He had mentioned it

:22:31. > :22:33.and down. He had mentioned it before, and I had never believed

:22:33. > :22:36.before, and I had never believed before, and I had never believed

:22:36. > :22:37.before, and I had never believed that he would do that. I didn't.

:22:37. > :22:38.that he would do that. I didn't. that he would do that. I didn't.

:22:38. > :22:39.That is something I felt guilty That is something I felt guilty

:22:39. > :22:40.That is something I felt guilty That is something I felt guilty

:22:40. > :22:41.about for a very, very long time. I about for a very, very long time. I

:22:41. > :22:41.about for a very, very long time. I about for a very, very long time. I

:22:41. > :22:43.about for a very, very long time. I had no idea that he would do it. I

:22:43. > :22:44.had no idea that he would do it. I had no idea that he would do it. I

:22:44. > :22:45.had no idea that he would do it. I was so shocked when he actually did

:22:45. > :22:47.was so shocked when he actually did was so shocked when he actually did

:22:47. > :22:48.was so shocked when he actually did it. I just, you know, people say

:22:48. > :22:49.it. I just, you know, people say it. I just, you know, people say

:22:49. > :22:50.it. I just, you know, people say all sorts of things when they are

:22:50. > :22:52.all sorts of things when they are all sorts of things when they are

:22:52. > :22:55.going through a difficult time, and going through a difficult time, and

:22:55. > :22:56.breakdowns of relationships. But, breakdowns of relationships. But,

:22:56. > :22:58.breakdowns of relationships. But, breakdowns of relationships. But,

:22:58. > :22:58.no, I never thought he would do it. no, I never thought he would do it.

:22:58. > :22:59.no, I never thought he would do it. no, I never thought he would do it.

:23:00. > :23:03.If I thought he would have done it, If I thought he would have done it,

:23:03. > :23:04.If I thought he would have done it, If I thought he would have done it,

:23:04. > :23:05.I would have, you know... Done my I would have, you know... Done my

:23:05. > :23:06.I would have, you know... Done my I would have, you know... Done my

:23:06. > :23:13.best, what I know now, I would have best, what I know now, I would have

:23:13. > :23:18.best, what I know now, I would have best, what I know now, I would have

:23:18. > :23:19.tried to help him. When you heard tried to help him. When you heard

:23:20. > :23:20.tried to help him. When you heard tried to help him. When you heard

:23:20. > :23:21.the news, Sorry. There is anger and the news, Sorry. There is anger and

:23:21. > :23:22.the news, Sorry. There is anger and the news, Sorry. There is anger and

:23:22. > :23:23.upset and there is no-one to direct upset and there is no-one to direct

:23:23. > :23:23.upset and there is no-one to direct upset and there is no-one to direct

:23:23. > :23:24.it at other than the person. You it at other than the person. You

:23:24. > :23:25.it at other than the person. You don't want that because you miss

:23:25. > :23:26.don't want that because you miss don't want that because you miss

:23:26. > :23:27.don't want that because you miss them and care about them, but you

:23:27. > :23:28.them and care about them, but you them and care about them, but you

:23:28. > :23:29.them and care about them, but you are also so angry that they have

:23:29. > :23:30.are also so angry that they have are also so angry that they have

:23:30. > :23:32.left you in this situation. left you in this situation.

:23:32. > :23:33.left you in this situation. Eventually I did forgive him. I

:23:33. > :23:34.Eventually I did forgive him. I Eventually I did forgive him. I

:23:34. > :23:36.understood, and now I understand understood, and now I understand

:23:36. > :23:37.understood, and now I understand understood, and now I understand

:23:37. > :23:39.why he did it, and I accept the why he did it, and I accept the

:23:39. > :23:40.why he did it, and I accept the why he did it, and I accept the

:23:40. > :23:43.fact that he was unwell. I found a fact that he was unwell. I found a

:23:43. > :23:44.fact that he was unwell. I found a fact that he was unwell. I found a

:23:44. > :23:46.lot of peace now, with it all. I lot of peace now, with it all. I

:23:46. > :23:47.lot of peace now, with it all. I lot of peace now, with it all. I

:23:47. > :23:48.understand that he was just in such understand that he was just in such

:23:48. > :23:52.understand that he was just in such understand that he was just in such

:23:52. > :23:53.despair, and that was his only way. despair, and that was his only way.

:23:53. > :23:54.despair, and that was his only way. despair, and that was his only way.

:23:54. > :23:56.He honestly, and I know this, he He honestly, and I know this, he

:23:56. > :23:57.He honestly, and I know this, he He honestly, and I know this, he

:23:57. > :23:59.honestly felt that we would all be honestly felt that we would all be

:23:59. > :24:01.honestly felt that we would all be better off without him. Obviously

:24:01. > :24:02.better off without him. Obviously better off without him. Obviously

:24:02. > :24:11.better off without him. Obviously that's not the case. That's what he

:24:11. > :24:12.that's not the case. That's what he that's not the case. That's what he

:24:13. > :24:13.truly believed. I just feel really, truly believed. I just feel really,

:24:13. > :24:16.truly believed. I just feel really, really sad that he couldn't have

:24:16. > :24:18.really sad that he couldn't have really sad that he couldn't have

:24:18. > :24:19.come forward gone and spoken to come forward gone and spoken to

:24:19. > :24:20.come forward gone and spoken to somebody. He talked to his best

:24:20. > :24:21.somebody. He talked to his best somebody. He talked to his best

:24:21. > :24:22.somebody. He talked to his best friend half an hour before he died,

:24:22. > :24:22.friend half an hour before he died, friend half an hour before he died,

:24:22. > :24:24.friend half an hour before he died, he gave nothing away about what he

:24:24. > :24:25.he gave nothing away about what he was going to do.

:24:25. > :24:26.was going to do. was going to do.

:24:26. > :24:28.was going to do. I probably would like to tell you

:24:28. > :24:29.I probably would like to tell you I probably would like to tell you

:24:29. > :24:30.that whether it gives you some that whether it gives you some

:24:30. > :24:30.that whether it gives you some that whether it gives you some

:24:30. > :24:31.comfort or what I don't know, but comfort or what I don't know, but

:24:31. > :24:33.comfort or what I don't know, but comfort or what I don't know, but

:24:33. > :24:35.the truth is, when you are at that the truth is, when you are at that

:24:35. > :24:37.the truth is, when you are at that the truth is, when you are at that

:24:37. > :24:39.stage you don't have the ability to stage you don't have the ability to

:24:39. > :24:40.stage you don't have the ability to rationalise. So I have got two

:24:40. > :24:41.rationalise. So I have got two rationalise. So I have got two

:24:41. > :24:42.rationalise. So I have got two children who were, one was in his

:24:42. > :24:43.children who were, one was in his children who were, one was in his

:24:43. > :24:44.children who were, one was in his teen, one had just turned 20, you

:24:44. > :24:45.teen, one had just turned 20, you teen, one had just turned 20, you

:24:45. > :24:47.teen, one had just turned 20, you can't think of them. You don't have

:24:47. > :24:48.can't think of them. You don't have can't think of them. You don't have

:24:48. > :24:50.the ability to think rationally and the ability to think rationally and

:24:50. > :24:51.the ability to think rationally and put things into some sort of

:24:51. > :24:52.put things into some sort of put things into some sort of

:24:52. > :24:53.perspective where you can say how perspective where you can say how

:24:53. > :24:55.perspective where you can say how perspective where you can say how

:24:55. > :24:55.are they going to cope with it. How are they going to cope with it. How

:24:55. > :24:58.are they going to cope with it. How are they going to cope with it. How

:24:58. > :25:00.will they deal with what I have will they deal with what I have

:25:00. > :25:01.will they deal with what I have done. Those thoughts aren't there.

:25:01. > :25:02.done. Those thoughts aren't there. done. Those thoughts aren't there.

:25:02. > :25:03.done. Those thoughts aren't there. In a way that is comforting to hear.

:25:03. > :25:03.In a way that is comforting to hear. In a way that is comforting to hear.

:25:03. > :25:05.In a way that is comforting to hear. That is a question I have always

:25:05. > :25:07.That is a question I have always That is a question I have always

:25:07. > :25:08.That is a question I have always wondered. Was he thinking of me and

:25:08. > :25:09.wondered. Was he thinking of me and the children, particularly, having

:25:09. > :25:12.the children, particularly, having the children, particularly, having

:25:12. > :25:12.dropped them off at school that dropped them off at school that

:25:12. > :25:14.dropped them off at school that morning. Surely if you are thinking

:25:14. > :25:16.morning. Surely if you are thinking morning. Surely if you are thinking

:25:16. > :25:18.morning. Surely if you are thinking about that, you couldn't do it. You

:25:18. > :25:19.about that, you couldn't do it. You about that, you couldn't do it. You

:25:19. > :25:20.saying that I really appreciate. saying that I really appreciate.

:25:20. > :25:22.saying that I really appreciate. saying that I really appreciate.

:25:22. > :25:23.Because it helps kind put my mind a Because it helps kind put my mind a

:25:23. > :25:25.Because it helps kind put my mind a Because it helps kind put my mind a

:25:25. > :25:25.little bit more at peace that he little bit more at peace that he

:25:25. > :25:31.little bit more at peace that he was too far gone with the

:25:31. > :25:32.was too far gone with the was too far gone with the

:25:32. > :25:34.depression to really feel the depression to really feel the

:25:34. > :25:35.depression to really feel the depression to really feel the

:25:35. > :25:36.emotions. I guess you have to be emotions. I guess you have to be

:25:36. > :25:39.completely detatched emotion-wise completely detatched emotion-wise

:25:39. > :25:40.completely detatched emotion-wise completely detatched emotion-wise

:25:40. > :25:42.completely detatched emotion-wise to be able to do that. I mean I

:25:42. > :25:44.to be able to do that. I mean I to be able to do that. I mean I

:25:44. > :25:45.suppose in those moments part of suppose in those moments part of

:25:45. > :25:46.suppose in those moments part of the reason that would have pulled

:25:46. > :25:47.the reason that would have pulled the reason that would have pulled

:25:47. > :25:49.the reason that would have pulled you back was it your family, was it

:25:49. > :25:49.you back was it your family, was it you back was it your family, was it

:25:49. > :25:52.you back was it your family, was it thoughts of that, or was it just

:25:52. > :25:53.thoughts of that, or was it just thoughts of that, or was it just

:25:53. > :25:54.that you physically couldn't do that you physically couldn't do

:25:54. > :25:55.that you physically couldn't do that you physically couldn't do

:25:55. > :25:56.that? All you can think about is that? All you can think about is

:25:56. > :25:58.that? All you can think about is ending the anguish and the pain,

:25:58. > :26:00.ending the anguish and the pain, ending the anguish and the pain,

:26:00. > :26:01.ending the anguish and the pain, the mental pain, it is not a

:26:01. > :26:01.the mental pain, it is not a the mental pain, it is not a

:26:02. > :26:03.physical pain, which would be physical pain, which would be

:26:03. > :26:04.physical pain, which would be physical pain, which would be

:26:04. > :26:04.easier to deal with if it was a easier to deal with if it was a

:26:04. > :26:05.easier to deal with if it was a physical pain, you would have

:26:05. > :26:06.physical pain, you would have physical pain, you would have

:26:06. > :26:07.something that you could treat. something that you could treat.

:26:07. > :26:08.something that you could treat. something that you could treat.

:26:08. > :26:09.When you are there and you have When you are there and you have

:26:09. > :26:10.When you are there and you have When you are there and you have

:26:10. > :26:11.that mental anguish, it is a cloud, that mental anguish, it is a cloud,

:26:11. > :26:13.that mental anguish, it is a cloud, a black cloud that completely

:26:13. > :26:15.a black cloud that completely a black cloud that completely

:26:15. > :26:17.invessel lops you, and you can't invessel lops you, and you can't

:26:17. > :26:21.invessel lops you, and you can't see through -- invessel lops you

:26:21. > :26:22.see through -- invessel lops you see through -- invessel lops you

:26:22. > :26:24.see through -- invessel lops you and you can't -- venvelopes you and

:26:24. > :26:25.and you can't -- venvelopes you and and you can't -- venvelopes you and

:26:25. > :26:27.and you can't -- venvelopes you and you couldn't see through it. It was

:26:27. > :26:28.you couldn't see through it. It was you couldn't see through it. It was

:26:28. > :26:28.a redundancy, and a relationship a redundancy, and a relationship

:26:28. > :26:30.a redundancy, and a relationship breakdown, and I left the

:26:30. > :26:31.breakdown, and I left the breakdown, and I left the

:26:31. > :26:31.relationship with nothing, I became relationship with nothing, I became

:26:31. > :26:32.relationship with nothing, I became homeless. It is a horrible

:26:32. > :26:33.homeless. It is a horrible homeless. It is a horrible

:26:33. > :26:34.homeless. It is a horrible situation to think you are set in

:26:34. > :26:35.situation to think you are set in situation to think you are set in

:26:35. > :26:36.situation to think you are set in life, and all of a sudden it is

:26:36. > :26:37.life, and all of a sudden it is life, and all of a sudden it is

:26:37. > :26:38.life, and all of a sudden it is wiped out, you are in your mid-40s

:26:38. > :26:39.wiped out, you are in your mid-40s wiped out, you are in your mid-40s

:26:39. > :26:41.and suddenly you are thinking you and suddenly you are thinking you

:26:41. > :26:42.and suddenly you are thinking you have to start again with nothing.

:26:42. > :26:43.have to start again with nothing. have to start again with nothing.

:26:43. > :26:45.It was a frightening prospect. It It was a frightening prospect. It

:26:45. > :26:46.It was a frightening prospect. It was pure chance that stopped me.

:26:46. > :26:47.was pure chance that stopped me. was pure chance that stopped me.

:26:47. > :26:48.What happened was the night before What happened was the night before

:26:48. > :26:49.What happened was the night before What happened was the night before

:26:49. > :26:51.I happened to look on the Internet I happened to look on the Internet

:26:51. > :26:53.I happened to look on the Internet I happened to look on the Internet

:26:53. > :26:54.and got a number for the Samaritans. and got a number for the Samaritans.

:26:54. > :26:55.and got a number for the Samaritans. and got a number for the Samaritans.

:26:55. > :26:56.I rang the number on my mobile I rang the number on my mobile

:26:56. > :26:57.I rang the number on my mobile phone, but somebody answered and I

:26:57. > :26:58.phone, but somebody answered and I phone, but somebody answered and I

:26:58. > :26:59.disconnected the ball. I just disconnected the ball. I just

:26:59. > :27:01.disconnected the ball. I just disconnected the ball. I just

:27:01. > :27:04.didn't feel like I could speak to didn't feel like I could speak to

:27:04. > :27:04.didn't feel like I could speak to didn't feel like I could speak to

:27:04. > :27:05.anybody. So the next day when the anybody. So the next day when the

:27:05. > :27:06.anybody. So the next day when the anybody. So the next day when the

:27:06. > :27:06.event was just about to happen I event was just about to happen I

:27:06. > :27:08.event was just about to happen I event was just about to happen I

:27:08. > :27:09.got my phone out of the pocket and got my phone out of the pocket and

:27:09. > :27:09.got my phone out of the pocket and started going through the last

:27:09. > :27:10.started going through the last started going through the last

:27:10. > :27:11.started going through the last dialed number on there, and I was

:27:11. > :27:12.dialed number on there, and I was dialed number on there, and I was

:27:12. > :27:13.dialed number on there, and I was looking to see who I had been

:27:13. > :27:13.looking to see who I had been looking to see who I had been

:27:13. > :27:14.ringing recently I was going ringing recently I was going

:27:14. > :27:16.ringing recently I was going through it and thinking this person

:27:16. > :27:17.through it and thinking this person through it and thinking this person

:27:17. > :27:18.might miss me, and this person might miss me, and this person

:27:18. > :27:21.might miss me, and this person probably won't care, and whatever,

:27:21. > :27:23.probably won't care, and whatever, whatever. Eventually I scrolled

:27:23. > :27:24.whatever. Eventually I scrolled whatever. Eventually I scrolled

:27:24. > :27:25.down to the Samaritans number and down to the Samaritans number and

:27:25. > :27:26.down to the Samaritans number and down to the Samaritans number and

:27:26. > :27:27.to this day I still don't know what to this day I still don't know what

:27:27. > :27:29.to this day I still don't know what to this day I still don't know what

:27:29. > :27:32.made me press the dial button but I made me press the dial button but I

:27:32. > :27:33.made me press the dial button but I made me press the dial button but I

:27:33. > :27:34.did, you know that was what stopped did, you know that was what stopped

:27:34. > :27:35.did, you know that was what stopped did, you know that was what stopped

:27:35. > :27:36.me from doing what I was going to me from doing what I was going to

:27:36. > :27:37.me from doing what I was going to me from doing what I was going to

:27:37. > :27:40.me from doing what I was going to do. I must admit I do find it hard

:27:40. > :27:41.do. I must admit I do find it hard do. I must admit I do find it hard

:27:41. > :27:44.do. I must admit I do find it hard to look at you guys. Because you

:27:44. > :27:45.to look at you guys. Because you to look at you guys. Because you

:27:45. > :27:46.to look at you guys. Because you are a reminder of what my family

:27:47. > :27:47.are a reminder of what my family are a reminder of what my family

:27:47. > :27:48.could have been going through. That could have been going through. That

:27:48. > :27:50.could have been going through. That could have been going through. That

:27:50. > :27:51.is really tough to see you and see is really tough to see you and see

:27:51. > :27:52.is really tough to see you and see you suffering and thinking I could

:27:52. > :28:01.you suffering and thinking I could you suffering and thinking I could

:28:01. > :28:02.have put my family through that. have put my family through that.

:28:02. > :28:08.have put my family through that. Depression is a disease of

:28:08. > :28:08.Depression is a disease of Depression is a disease of

:28:08. > :28:10.isolation. When you isolate you isolation. When you isolate you

:28:11. > :28:11.isolation. When you isolate you isolation. When you isolate you

:28:11. > :28:13.disconnect. I think that the way we disconnect. I think that the way we

:28:13. > :28:14.disconnect. I think that the way we disconnect. I think that the way we

:28:14. > :28:19.are leading our lives at the moment, are leading our lives at the moment,

:28:19. > :28:20.are leading our lives at the moment, and in particular men, we are

:28:20. > :28:21.and in particular men, we are and in particular men, we are

:28:21. > :28:22.disconnecting with our fellow human disconnecting with our fellow human

:28:22. > :28:23.disconnecting with our fellow human disconnecting with our fellow human

:28:23. > :28:24.beings, and I think that is a beings, and I think that is a

:28:24. > :28:25.beings, and I think that is a beings, and I think that is a

:28:25. > :28:26.problem that we may be not looking problem that we may be not looking

:28:26. > :28:28.problem that we may be not looking problem that we may be not looking

:28:28. > :28:30.at. And we need to. We know from at. And we need to. We know from

:28:30. > :28:32.at. And we need to. We know from the studies from the work by

:28:32. > :28:33.the studies from the work by the studies from the work by

:28:33. > :28:34.Liverpool University, that we can Liverpool University, that we can

:28:34. > :28:37.Liverpool University, that we can Liverpool University, that we can

:28:37. > :28:38.see a thousand more suicides as a see a thousand more suicides as a

:28:39. > :28:41.see a thousand more suicides as a result of the economic recession,

:28:41. > :28:42.result of the economic recession, result of the economic recession,

:28:42. > :28:43.result of the economic recession, 800 of which will be men. But does

:28:43. > :28:44.800 of which will be men. But does 800 of which will be men. But does

:28:44. > :28:46.background play some factor in this, background play some factor in this,

:28:46. > :28:49.background play some factor in this, background play some factor in this,

:28:49. > :28:49.if you are poor and lower down the if you are poor and lower down the

:28:49. > :28:50.if you are poor and lower down the socioeconomic scale, are you more

:28:51. > :28:52.socioeconomic scale, are you more socioeconomic scale, are you more

:28:52. > :28:54.socioeconomic scale, are you more likely to end up taking your life?

:28:54. > :28:55.likely to end up taking your life? likely to end up taking your life?

:28:55. > :28:56.It is true that lower socioeconomic It is true that lower socioeconomic

:28:56. > :28:58.It is true that lower socioeconomic groups are more likely to take

:28:58. > :28:59.groups are more likely to take groups are more likely to take

:28:59. > :29:00.their lives. But suicide don't have their lives. But suicide don't have

:29:00. > :29:02.their lives. But suicide don't have great respect for people in the

:29:02. > :29:03.great respect for people in the great respect for people in the

:29:03. > :29:05.higher incomes. It just don't work higher incomes. It just don't work

:29:05. > :29:06.higher incomes. It just don't work higher incomes. It just don't work

:29:06. > :29:08.out that way. It might not be out that way. It might not be

:29:08. > :29:08.out that way. It might not be out that way. It might not be

:29:08. > :29:09.fashionable to say so, but do you fashionable to say so, but do you

:29:09. > :29:11.fashionable to say so, but do you think there is any correlation

:29:11. > :29:12.think there is any correlation think there is any correlation

:29:12. > :29:22.between feminism and the rise of between feminism and the rise of

:29:22. > :29:23.

:29:23. > :29:25.between feminism and the rise of female equality and opportunity and

:29:25. > :29:28.female equality and opportunity and female equality and opportunity and

:29:28. > :29:28.female equality and opportunity and the rates of where men are now?

:29:28. > :29:29.the rates of where men are now? the rates of where men are now?

:29:30. > :29:30.think feminism and equality is think feminism and equality is

:29:30. > :29:32.think feminism and equality is great, but I think men have

:29:32. > :29:33.great, but I think men have great, but I think men have

:29:33. > :29:34.great, but I think men have forgotten a lot about what men have

:29:34. > :29:35.forgotten a lot about what men have forgotten a lot about what men have

:29:35. > :29:35.forgotten a lot about what men have to go through as well. Who do you

:29:35. > :29:36.to go through as well. Who do you to go through as well. Who do you

:29:36. > :29:37.to go through as well. Who do you talk to, you go for a pint with

:29:37. > :29:38.talk to, you go for a pint with talk to, you go for a pint with

:29:38. > :29:39.talk to, you go for a pint with your mate and you won't talk about

:29:39. > :29:40.your mate and you won't talk about your mate and you won't talk about

:29:40. > :29:41.those sorts of things with your those sorts of things with your

:29:41. > :29:42.those sorts of things with your those sorts of things with your

:29:42. > :29:43.mates, and start crying in front of mates, and start crying in front of

:29:43. > :29:44.mates, and start crying in front of your mates. Because when you are

:29:44. > :29:45.your mates. Because when you are your mates. Because when you are

:29:45. > :29:47.your mates. Because when you are out for a pint you phone will soon

:29:47. > :29:48.out for a pint you phone will soon out for a pint you phone will soon

:29:48. > :29:49.stop ringing and you would stop stop ringing and you would stop

:29:49. > :29:50.stop ringing and you would stop stop ringing and you would stop

:29:50. > :29:51.getting invited out, and it will be, getting invited out, and it will be,

:29:51. > :29:53.getting invited out, and it will be, getting invited out, and it will be,

:29:53. > :29:54.they don't know how to deal with they don't know how to deal with

:29:54. > :29:55.they don't know how to deal with they don't know how to deal with

:29:55. > :29:56.that. Then you have to try and seek that. Then you have to try and seek

:29:56. > :29:57.that. Then you have to try and seek professional help and you don't

:29:57. > :29:58.professional help and you don't professional help and you don't

:29:58. > :30:00.know what's happening for you. know what's happening for you.

:30:00. > :30:01.know what's happening for you. work its, what has made the

:30:01. > :30:03.work its, what has made the work its, what has made the

:30:03. > :30:04.difference for you, what has made difference for you, what has made

:30:04. > :30:05.difference for you, what has made difference for you, what has made

:30:05. > :30:07.you sat here a year later feeling you sat here a year later feeling

:30:07. > :30:09.you sat here a year later feeling much better about things? The one

:30:09. > :30:10.much better about things? The one much better about things? The one

:30:10. > :30:13.much better about things? The one key thing was group therapy. It is

:30:13. > :30:19.key thing was group therapy. It is key thing was group therapy. It is

:30:19. > :30:20.amazing the bond between you. That amazing the bond between you. That

:30:20. > :30:21.helps enormously. Cognitive helps enormously. Cognitive

:30:21. > :30:22.behavioural therapy really helped behavioural therapy really helped

:30:22. > :30:23.behavioural therapy really helped behavioural therapy really helped

:30:23. > :30:24.behavioural therapy really helped me, it made me look at what I was

:30:24. > :30:26.me, it made me look at what I was me, it made me look at what I was

:30:26. > :30:28.going through. It made me question going through. It made me question

:30:28. > :30:30.going through. It made me question my thought process. It is quite

:30:30. > :30:32.my thought process. It is quite my thought process. It is quite

:30:32. > :30:34.emotional sitting here with you guy emotional sitting here with you guy

:30:34. > :30:36.emotional sitting here with you guy emotional sitting here with you guy

:30:36. > :30:37.its, much the same -- guys, much its, much the same -- guys, much

:30:37. > :30:41.its, much the same -- guys, much its, much the same -- guys, much

:30:41. > :30:42.the same as I'm so glad you have the same as I'm so glad you have

:30:42. > :30:43.the same as I'm so glad you have the same as I'm so glad you have

:30:43. > :30:52.sought help. I just wish Guy could sought help. I just wish Guy could

:30:53. > :30:55.sought help. I just wish Guy could have done the same, really.

:30:55. > :30:58.have done the same, really. have done the same, really.

:30:58. > :30:59.For details of organisations which For details of organisations which

:30:59. > :31:09.For details of organisations which offer advice and support visit the

:31:09. > :31:27.

:31:27. > :31:29.With me again is the Health With me again is the Health

:31:29. > :31:32.With me again is the Health Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire

:31:32. > :31:34.Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire

:31:34. > :31:36.Wiley from the Samaritans. These Wiley from the Samaritans. These

:31:36. > :31:38.are distressing stories and are distressing stories and

:31:38. > :31:39.statistics. Clearly, men in statistics. Clearly, men in

:31:39. > :31:41.statistics. Clearly, men in particular, don't know they need

:31:41. > :31:42.particular, don't know they need particular, don't know they need

:31:42. > :31:43.help, and aren't getting help? help, and aren't getting help?

:31:43. > :31:44.help, and aren't getting help? help, and aren't getting help?

:31:44. > :31:46.I think we are often reluctant to I think we are often reluctant to

:31:46. > :31:48.I think we are often reluctant to come forward and admit any frailty.

:31:48. > :31:49.come forward and admit any frailty. come forward and admit any frailty.

:31:49. > :31:50.come forward and admit any frailty. come forward and admit any frailty.

:31:50. > :31:51.I think often we feel we have to be I think often we feel we have to be

:31:51. > :31:54.I think often we feel we have to be strong and cope with all

:31:54. > :31:55.strong and cope with all strong and cope with all

:31:55. > :31:55.circumstances, and yet, often we circumstances, and yet, often we

:31:55. > :31:56.circumstances, and yet, often we circumstances, and yet, often we

:31:56. > :31:58.can't. One of the things that I can't. One of the things that I

:31:58. > :32:00.can't. One of the things that I think is really important is to

:32:00. > :32:01.think is really important is to think is really important is to

:32:01. > :32:01.tackle the stigma of mental health. tackle the stigma of mental health.

:32:02. > :32:03.tackle the stigma of mental health. There is a brilliant campaign

:32:03. > :32:04.There is a brilliant campaign There is a brilliant campaign

:32:04. > :32:05.called Time To Change, which the called Time To Change, which the

:32:05. > :32:07.called Time To Change, which the Government is helping to fund. But

:32:07. > :32:09.Government is helping to fund. But Government is helping to fund. But

:32:09. > :32:10.Government is helping to fund. But it is to really tackle thised idea

:32:10. > :32:11.it is to really tackle thised idea it is to really tackle thised idea

:32:11. > :32:12.that mental health is anything to that mental health is anything to

:32:12. > :32:14.that mental health is anything to that mental health is anything to

:32:14. > :32:15.be embarrassed about. We have to be be embarrassed about. We have to be

:32:15. > :32:21.be embarrassed about. We have to be encouraging people to come forward

:32:21. > :32:22.encouraging people to come forward encouraging people to come forward

:32:22. > :32:24.encouraging people to come forward if they have -- to come forward if

:32:25. > :32:25.if they have -- to come forward if if they have -- to come forward if

:32:25. > :32:26.they have problems. Kevin was they have problems. Kevin was

:32:26. > :32:27.they have problems. Kevin was saying there he wouldn't have

:32:27. > :32:28.saying there he wouldn't have saying there he wouldn't have

:32:28. > :32:29.saying there he wouldn't have dreamt of going to the pub and

:32:29. > :32:31.dreamt of going to the pub and dreamt of going to the pub and

:32:31. > :32:32.telling his friends. There is a telling his friends. There is a

:32:32. > :32:33.telling his friends. There is a particular problem around men and

:32:33. > :32:34.particular problem around men and particular problem around men and

:32:34. > :32:35.particular problem around men and you call it a perfect storm? What

:32:35. > :32:36.you call it a perfect storm? What you call it a perfect storm? What

:32:36. > :32:37.you call it a perfect storm? What we have seen is a range of social

:32:37. > :32:38.we have seen is a range of social we have seen is a range of social

:32:38. > :32:40.and economic changes over the last and economic changes over the last

:32:40. > :32:41.and economic changes over the last and economic changes over the last

:32:42. > :32:43.40 years, which means men in mid- 40 years, which means men in mid-

:32:43. > :32:45.40 years, which means men in mid- life, from disadvantaged groups in

:32:45. > :32:46.life, from disadvantaged groups in particular, are experiencing a

:32:46. > :32:47.particular, are experiencing a particular, are experiencing a

:32:47. > :32:50.perfect storm of challenges. We perfect storm of challenges. We

:32:50. > :32:52.perfect storm of challenges. We have seen a decline of

:32:52. > :32:54.have seen a decline of traditionally male industry

:32:54. > :32:55.traditionally male industry traditionally male industry

:32:55. > :32:56.industries, and recessions, and men industries, and recessions, and men

:32:56. > :32:58.industries, and recessions, and men at mid-life are dependant on a

:32:58. > :32:58.at mid-life are dependant on a at mid-life are dependant on a

:32:58. > :33:01.woman for emotional support. So woman for emotional support. So

:33:01. > :33:02.woman for emotional support. So they are fish particularly affected

:33:02. > :33:03.they are fish particularly affected by relationship breakdown. In

:33:03. > :33:04.by relationship breakdown. In by relationship breakdown. In

:33:04. > :33:06.addition to that they are more addition to that they are more

:33:06. > :33:06.addition to that they are more addition to that they are more

:33:06. > :33:08.likely to turn to alcohol or drugs likely to turn to alcohol or drugs

:33:08. > :33:09.likely to turn to alcohol or drugs likely to turn to alcohol or drugs

:33:09. > :33:11.as a way of coping. All those as a way of coping. All those

:33:11. > :33:13.things together means that things together means that

:33:13. > :33:14.things together means that particular group is at risk of

:33:14. > :33:16.particular group is at risk of particular group is at risk of

:33:16. > :33:17.particular group is at risk of suicide. What needs to be done and

:33:17. > :33:17.suicide. What needs to be done and suicide. What needs to be done and

:33:17. > :33:19.presumably it is urgent? What is presumably it is urgent? What is

:33:19. > :33:20.presumably it is urgent? What is presumably it is urgent? What is

:33:20. > :33:21.crucial is we stop expecting men to crucial is we stop expecting men to

:33:21. > :33:23.crucial is we stop expecting men to come to traditional mental health

:33:23. > :33:24.come to traditional mental health come to traditional mental health

:33:24. > :33:25.services. Absolutely.It is really services. Absolutely.It is really

:33:25. > :33:27.services. Absolutely.It is really services. Absolutely.It is really

:33:27. > :33:28.emasculating for a man to think I emasculating for a man to think I

:33:28. > :33:29.emasculating for a man to think I emasculating for a man to think I

:33:29. > :33:30.need to see a councillor once a need to see a councillor once a

:33:30. > :33:32.need to see a councillor once a need to see a councillor once a

:33:32. > :33:33.week -- counsellor once a week to week -- counsellor once a week to

:33:34. > :33:36.week -- counsellor once a week to sort out my feelings. Samaritans

:33:36. > :33:37.sort out my feelings. Samaritans sort out my feelings. Samaritans

:33:37. > :33:39.sort out my feelings. Samaritans needs to go where men are, we are

:33:39. > :33:40.needs to go where men are, we are needs to go where men are, we are

:33:40. > :33:40.going into homeless centres and going into homeless centres and

:33:40. > :33:42.going into homeless centres and pubs. Volunteers are there to talk

:33:42. > :33:43.pubs. Volunteers are there to talk pubs. Volunteers are there to talk

:33:43. > :33:44.pubs. Volunteers are there to talk to men where they are. It seems the

:33:44. > :33:44.to men where they are. It seems the to men where they are. It seems the

:33:44. > :33:45.to men where they are. It seems the NHS seems to have put the problem,

:33:45. > :33:46.NHS seems to have put the problem, NHS seems to have put the problem,

:33:47. > :33:48.NHS seems to have put the problem, as it were, of dealing with this,

:33:48. > :33:49.as it were, of dealing with this, as it were, of dealing with this,

:33:49. > :33:50.as it were, of dealing with this, and coming to a solution on to

:33:50. > :33:52.and coming to a solution on to and coming to a solution on to

:33:52. > :33:52.councils in England, and only a councils in England, and only a

:33:53. > :33:54.councils in England, and only a third of councils actually have

:33:54. > :33:54.third of councils actually have third of councils actually have

:33:54. > :33:55.suicide prevention groups? There is suicide prevention groups? There is

:33:56. > :33:57.suicide prevention groups? There is a significant increase, first of

:33:57. > :33:59.a significant increase, first of a significant increase, first of

:33:59. > :34:00.all, in the funding for public all, in the funding for public

:34:00. > :34:01.all, in the funding for public health. Public health is going for

:34:01. > :34:02.health. Public health is going for health. Public health is going for

:34:02. > :34:03.the first time in local Government. the first time in local Government.

:34:03. > :34:04.the first time in local Government. the first time in local Government.

:34:04. > :34:06.I think that's the right place for I think that's the right place for

:34:06. > :34:07.I think that's the right place for I think that's the right place for

:34:07. > :34:08.it to be. Only a third of council, it to be. Only a third of council,

:34:08. > :34:09.it to be. Only a third of council, presumably you can't force the

:34:09. > :34:10.presumably you can't force the presumably you can't force the

:34:10. > :34:11.issue? That needs to change.Can issue? That needs to change.Can

:34:11. > :34:14.issue? That needs to change.Can issue? That needs to change.Can

:34:14. > :34:15.you force the issue? This has to be you force the issue? This has to be

:34:15. > :34:16.you force the issue? This has to be a collaboration. You asked who is

:34:16. > :34:17.a collaboration. You asked who is a collaboration. You asked who is

:34:17. > :34:18.responsible, we are all responsible. responsible, we are all responsible.

:34:18. > :34:19.responsible, we are all responsible. The whole of society. Government

:34:19. > :34:20.The whole of society. Government The whole of society. Government

:34:20. > :34:22.The whole of society. Government has a critical part to play, and as

:34:22. > :34:22.has a critical part to play, and as has a critical part to play, and as

:34:22. > :34:24.the minister responsible for mental the minister responsible for mental

:34:24. > :34:25.the minister responsible for mental health. I have a profound interest

:34:25. > :34:27.health. I have a profound interest health. I have a profound interest

:34:27. > :34:29.in this. And I am absolutely in this. And I am absolutely

:34:29. > :34:31.in this. And I am absolutely determined that we give mental

:34:31. > :34:32.determined that we give mental determined that we give mental

:34:32. > :34:33.health services a higher priority health services a higher priority

:34:33. > :34:35.health services a higher priority health services a higher priority

:34:35. > :34:36.in the first mandate, this is the in the first mandate, this is the

:34:36. > :34:38.in the first mandate, this is the Government's priorities for the NHS,

:34:38. > :34:38.Government's priorities for the NHS, Government's priorities for the NHS,

:34:38. > :34:39.Government's priorities for the NHS, we are saying mental health has to

:34:39. > :34:41.we are saying mental health has to we are saying mental health has to

:34:41. > :34:42.have parity of esteem with physical have parity of esteem with physical

:34:43. > :34:44.have parity of esteem with physical have parity of esteem with physical

:34:44. > :34:45.health. In your film there was a health. In your film there was a

:34:45. > :34:46.reference to cognitive behavioural reference to cognitive behavioural

:34:46. > :34:47.reference to cognitive behavioural they werey. Over half a million

:34:47. > :34:49.they werey. Over half a million they werey. Over half a million

:34:49. > :34:50.they werey. Over half a million people got access last year, we are

:34:50. > :34:51.people got access last year, we are people got access last year, we are

:34:51. > :34:52.massively expanding this. That is massively expanding this. That is

:34:52. > :34:53.massively expanding this. That is massively expanding this. That is

:34:53. > :34:54.one of the routes to help people one of the routes to help people

:34:54. > :34:55.one of the routes to help people deal with profound challenges they

:34:55. > :34:56.deal with profound challenges they deal with profound challenges they

:34:56. > :34:57.face. I think what is really face. I think what is really

:34:57. > :34:58.face. I think what is really important is we don't just see

:34:58. > :34:59.important is we don't just see important is we don't just see

:34:59. > :35:00.important is we don't just see suicide purely as an issue of mem

:35:00. > :35:01.suicide purely as an issue of mem suicide purely as an issue of mem

:35:01. > :35:03.health, and it needs to be health, and it needs to be

:35:03. > :35:05.health, and it needs to be addressed early by mental health

:35:05. > :35:06.addressed early by mental health addressed early by mental health

:35:06. > :35:07.addressed early by mental health services. It is one element, and a

:35:07. > :35:08.services. It is one element, and a services. It is one element, and a

:35:08. > :35:09.very important element, we can see very important element, we can see

:35:10. > :35:12.very important element, we can see these men were facing social

:35:12. > :35:14.these men were facing social challenges, issues with social

:35:14. > :35:15.challenges, issues with social eyesation, relationship breakdown,

:35:16. > :35:16.eyesation, relationship breakdown, debt, economic problems, alcohol,

:35:17. > :35:17.debt, economic problems, alcohol, debt, economic problems, alcohol,

:35:17. > :35:19.debt, economic problems, alcohol, at local level you need a whole

:35:19. > :35:23.at local level you need a whole range of different services,

:35:23. > :35:25.range of different services, range of different services,

:35:25. > :35:26.statutory and third sector. 75% of statutory and third sector. 75% of

:35:26. > :35:27.statutory and third sector. 75% of those who commit suicide have no

:35:27. > :35:28.those who commit suicide have no those who commit suicide have no

:35:28. > :35:29.contact with mental health services. contact with mental health services.

:35:29. > :35:31.contact with mental health services. Isn't this outreach, at a local

:35:31. > :35:31.Isn't this outreach, at a local Isn't this outreach, at a local

:35:31. > :35:32.Isn't this outreach, at a local level, as you say you would expect

:35:32. > :35:33.level, as you say you would expect level, as you say you would expect

:35:33. > :35:34.level, as you say you would expect to have this outreach, only a third

:35:35. > :35:35.to have this outreach, only a third to have this outreach, only a third

:35:35. > :35:36.to have this outreach, only a third of councils have taken up the idea

:35:36. > :35:38.of councils have taken up the idea of councils have taken up the idea

:35:38. > :35:39.of a suicide prevention group? of a suicide prevention group?

:35:39. > :35:39.of a suicide prevention group? is a serious worry. It is

:35:40. > :35:40.is a serious worry. It is is a serious worry. It is

:35:41. > :35:41.absolutely correct that there is a absolutely correct that there is a

:35:42. > :35:43.absolutely correct that there is a whole range of actors and agencies

:35:43. > :35:43.whole range of actors and agencies whole range of actors and agencies

:35:44. > :35:46.that play a role in suicide that play a role in suicide

:35:46. > :35:46.that play a role in suicide prevention, but we do think that

:35:46. > :35:47.prevention, but we do think that prevention, but we do think that

:35:47. > :35:49.Government at local level needs it Government at local level needs it

:35:49. > :35:50.Government at local level needs it take the lead. Thinking about a

:35:50. > :35:53.take the lead. Thinking about a take the lead. Thinking about a

:35:53. > :35:54.Samaritan's branch. We need to know Samaritan's branch. We need to know

:35:54. > :35:55.Samaritan's branch. We need to know who in the local structure is

:35:55. > :35:57.who in the local structure is responsible for suicide prevention,

:35:57. > :35:58.responsible for suicide prevention, responsible for suicide prevention,

:35:58. > :35:59.responsible for suicide prevention, to make sure our efforts are linked

:35:59. > :36:00.to make sure our efforts are linked to make sure our efforts are linked

:36:00. > :36:01.to make sure our efforts are linked in with a whole range of other

:36:01. > :36:03.in with a whole range of other in with a whole range of other

:36:03. > :36:04.services that need to take action. services that need to take action.

:36:04. > :36:05.services that need to take action. services that need to take action.

:36:05. > :36:07.One example of an at-risk group are One example of an at-risk group are

:36:07. > :36:08.One example of an at-risk group are those who self-harm, much more

:36:09. > :36:10.those who self-harm, much more those who self-harm, much more

:36:10. > :36:11.likely to end up committing suicide. likely to end up committing suicide.

:36:11. > :36:14.likely to end up committing suicide. In Birmingham there is a brilliant

:36:14. > :36:16.In Birmingham there is a brilliant In Birmingham there is a brilliant

:36:16. > :36:18.scheme called RAID, you have the scheme called RAID, you have the

:36:18. > :36:20.scheme called RAID, you have the mental Health Trust working closely

:36:20. > :36:21.mental Health Trust working closely mental Health Trust working closely

:36:22. > :36:22.mental Health Trust working closely with A&E, anyone who comes to A&E

:36:22. > :36:24.with A&E, anyone who comes to A&E with A&E, anyone who comes to A&E

:36:24. > :36:25.with mental health problems or who with mental health problems or who

:36:25. > :36:27.has self-harmed, immediately gets has self-harmed, immediately gets

:36:27. > :36:28.has self-harmed, immediately gets has self-harmed, immediately gets

:36:28. > :36:30.in touch with services who can help in touch with services who can help

:36:30. > :36:31.in touch with services who can help them through that crisis. Is self-

:36:31. > :36:33.them through that crisis. Is self- them through that crisis. Is self-

:36:33. > :36:35.harm prevalent among an older age harm prevalent among an older age

:36:35. > :36:36.harm prevalent among an older age group? This is particularly to

:36:36. > :36:37.group? This is particularly to group? This is particularly to

:36:37. > :36:43.group? This is particularly to younger men. It is this age group

:36:43. > :36:47.younger men. It is this age group younger men. It is this age group

:36:47. > :36:48.that has this emmasslation? that has this emmasslation?

:36:48. > :36:49.that has this emmasslation? really Emasculation?They need the

:36:49. > :36:50.really Emasculation?They need the really Emasculation?They need the

:36:50. > :36:52.really Emasculation?They need the help we were talking about. Do we

:36:52. > :36:54.help we were talking about. Do we help we were talking about. Do we

:36:54. > :36:55.help we were talking about. Do we need to focus on older men? It is

:36:55. > :36:57.need to focus on older men? It is need to focus on older men? It is

:36:57. > :36:58.the biggest single cause of death the biggest single cause of death

:36:58. > :36:59.the biggest single cause of death the biggest single cause of death

:36:59. > :37:00.in younger men. We need to be in younger men. We need to be

:37:00. > :37:01.in younger men. We need to be conscious of all of the challenges.

:37:01. > :37:02.conscious of all of the challenges. conscious of all of the challenges.

:37:02. > :37:04.Absolutely, we have seen this trend Absolutely, we have seen this trend

:37:04. > :37:05.Absolutely, we have seen this trend that has been growing over ten

:37:05. > :37:06.that has been growing over ten that has been growing over ten

:37:06. > :37:07.that has been growing over ten years now. And we need to respond

:37:07. > :37:10.to that. to that.

:37:10. > :37:11.to that. Thank you both very much indeed.

:37:11. > :37:12.Thank you both very much indeed. Thank you both very much indeed.

:37:12. > :37:13.Thank you both very much indeed. More on the death of Hugo Chavez in

:37:13. > :37:14.More on the death of Hugo Chavez in More on the death of Hugo Chavez in

:37:14. > :37:17.More on the death of Hugo Chavez in a moment. First the words, "the Dow

:37:17. > :37:19.a moment. First the words, "the Dow a moment. First the words, "the Dow

:37:19. > :37:20.Jones has reached an all-time high", Jones has reached an all-time high",

:37:20. > :37:21.Jones has reached an all-time high", Jones has reached an all-time high",

:37:21. > :37:24.sounds like optistic ones and to be sounds like optistic ones and to be

:37:24. > :37:25.sounds like optistic ones and to be sounds like optistic ones and to be

:37:25. > :37:26.celebrated as we look to other to celebrated as we look to other to

:37:26. > :37:27.celebrated as we look to other to follow suit. Should they strike a

:37:27. > :37:36.follow suit. Should they strike a follow suit. Should they strike a

:37:36. > :37:37.note of caution or even dread. note of caution or even dread.

:37:37. > :37:40.note of caution or even dread. note of caution or even dread.

:37:40. > :37:41.Dow Jones is his name, money is his Dow Jones is his name, money is his

:37:41. > :37:42.Dow Jones is his name, money is his game. Americans monitor the Dow

:37:42. > :37:43.game. Americans monitor the Dow game. Americans monitor the Dow

:37:43. > :37:44.Jones industrial index far more Jones industrial index far more

:37:44. > :37:45.Jones industrial index far more than we scrutinise the FTSE over

:37:45. > :37:46.than we scrutinise the FTSE over than we scrutinise the FTSE over

:37:46. > :37:47.here. That is because ordinary here. That is because ordinary

:37:47. > :37:49.here. That is because ordinary plaerpbs often manage their own

:37:49. > :37:50.plaerpbs often manage their own plaerpbs often manage their own

:37:50. > :37:51.savings or mention -- Americans savings or mention -- Americans

:37:51. > :37:52.savings or mention -- Americans often manage their own savings or

:37:52. > :37:53.often manage their own savings or often manage their own savings or

:37:53. > :37:55.pensions, rather than trusting them pensions, rather than trusting them

:37:55. > :37:56.pensions, rather than trusting them to banks or insurance firms.

:37:56. > :37:57.to banks or insurance firms. to banks or insurance firms.

:37:57. > :37:59.Following a precipitous fall in Following a precipitous fall in

:38:00. > :38:01.Following a precipitous fall in shares after the financial crisis

:38:01. > :38:03.shares after the financial crisis shares after the financial crisis

:38:03. > :38:04.shares after the financial crisis of 2007, the Dow Jones began its

:38:04. > :38:05.of 2007, the Dow Jones began its of 2007, the Dow Jones began its

:38:06. > :38:08.inexorable rise four years ago, inexorable rise four years ago,

:38:08. > :38:09.inexorable rise four years ago, inexorable rise four years ago,

:38:09. > :38:10.since then it has risen 114%. In since then it has risen 114%. In

:38:10. > :38:11.since then it has risen 114%. In theory, this new high should be

:38:11. > :38:12.theory, this new high should be theory, this new high should be

:38:12. > :38:13.theory, this new high should be good news. That is until you look

:38:13. > :38:14.good news. That is until you look good news. That is until you look

:38:14. > :38:16.good news. That is until you look at why it has peaked. People with

:38:16. > :38:16.at why it has peaked. People with at why it has peaked. People with

:38:16. > :38:17.savings or money to invest savings or money to invest

:38:17. > :38:19.traditionally have four main traditionally have four main

:38:19. > :38:20.traditionally have four main options, they can put their money

:38:20. > :38:21.options, they can put their money options, they can put their money

:38:21. > :38:22.options, they can put their money into a savings account and rely on

:38:22. > :38:24.into a savings account and rely on into a savings account and rely on

:38:24. > :38:25.interest for regular income. But interest for regular income. But

:38:25. > :38:26.interest for regular income. But interest for regular income. But

:38:26. > :38:27.rates are at an all-time low and rates are at an all-time low and

:38:27. > :38:28.rates are at an all-time low and rates are at an all-time low and

:38:28. > :38:30.not set to rise for a few years. not set to rise for a few years.

:38:30. > :38:31.not set to rise for a few years. They could also invest in super-

:38:31. > :38:32.They could also invest in super- They could also invest in super-

:38:32. > :38:33.safe Government bonds, but the safe Government bonds, but the

:38:33. > :38:33.safe Government bonds, but the safe Government bonds, but the

:38:33. > :38:34.returns on them are also at record returns on them are also at record

:38:35. > :38:36.returns on them are also at record lows, thanks mostly to the printing

:38:36. > :38:37.lows, thanks mostly to the printing lows, thanks mostly to the printing

:38:37. > :38:38.of new money, or quanative easing. of new money, or quanative easing.

:38:38. > :38:40.of new money, or quanative easing. A third option for would-be

:38:40. > :38:41.A third option for would-be A third option for would-be

:38:41. > :38:42.investors is property. But that's investors is property. But that's

:38:42. > :38:43.investors is property. But that's investors is property. But that's

:38:44. > :38:45.out as well. Real estate prices in out as well. Real estate prices in

:38:45. > :38:45.out as well. Real estate prices in out as well. Real estate prices in

:38:45. > :38:46.the US are still well below the the US are still well below the

:38:46. > :38:48.the US are still well below the level seen before the financial

:38:48. > :38:48.level seen before the financial level seen before the financial

:38:48. > :38:51.crisis. That leaves stocks, shares crisis. That leaves stocks, shares

:38:51. > :38:53.crisis. That leaves stocks, shares crisis. That leaves stocks, shares

:38:53. > :38:58.or equities, they all mean the same or equities, they all mean the same

:38:58. > :38:59.thing. They traditionally out- thing. They traditionally out-

:38:59. > :39:00.thing. They traditionally out- perform the other sectors, are they

:39:00. > :39:02.perform the other sectors, are they perform the other sectors, are they

:39:02. > :39:03.perform the other sectors, are they too high and is this another bubble.

:39:03. > :39:03.too high and is this another bubble. too high and is this another bubble.

:39:03. > :39:04.too high and is this another bubble. This is not an equity bubble. We

:39:04. > :39:05.This is not an equity bubble. We This is not an equity bubble. We

:39:05. > :39:07.This is not an equity bubble. We have certainly seen a new high on

:39:07. > :39:08.have certainly seen a new high on have certainly seen a new high on

:39:08. > :39:09.have certainly seen a new high on have certainly seen a new high on

:39:09. > :39:10.the DOw, but if you look at the -- the DOw, but if you look at the --

:39:10. > :39:11.the DOw, but if you look at the -- the DOw, but if you look at the --

:39:11. > :39:12.Dow, but if you look at the Dow, but if you look at the

:39:12. > :39:13.Dow, but if you look at the valuations, what matters for stocks

:39:13. > :39:14.valuations, what matters for stocks valuations, what matters for stocks

:39:14. > :39:15.is interest rates and earnings. is interest rates and earnings.

:39:15. > :39:17.Relative to five-and-a-half years Relative to five-and-a-half years

:39:17. > :39:18.Relative to five-and-a-half years Relative to five-and-a-half years

:39:18. > :39:20.ago, the last time we had these ago, the last time we had these

:39:20. > :39:21.ago, the last time we had these level, we had earnings that were

:39:21. > :39:22.level, we had earnings that were level, we had earnings that were

:39:22. > :39:23.15% higher, and interest rates 15% higher, and interest rates

:39:23. > :39:25.15% higher, and interest rates three percentage points lower. It

:39:25. > :39:26.three percentage points lower. It three percentage points lower. It

:39:26. > :39:27.three percentage points lower. It is a much cheaper market than five-

:39:27. > :39:31.is a much cheaper market than five- is a much cheaper market than five-

:39:31. > :39:33.and-a-half years ago. What is the and-a-half years ago. What is the

:39:33. > :39:35.and-a-half years ago. What is the and-a-half years ago. What is the

:39:35. > :39:36.matter Dow. The Dow is down baby! matter Dow. The Dow is down baby!

:39:36. > :39:36.matter Dow. The Dow is down baby! Just how representative is the Dow

:39:36. > :39:37.Just how representative is the Dow Just how representative is the Dow

:39:37. > :39:39.Just how representative is the Dow Jones of the US economy. It is only

:39:39. > :39:40.Jones of the US economy. It is only Jones of the US economy. It is only

:39:40. > :39:42.Jones of the US economy. It is only made up of 30 large companies, it

:39:42. > :39:43.made up of 30 large companies, it made up of 30 large companies, it

:39:43. > :39:45.exclude household brands such as exclude household brands such as

:39:45. > :39:47.exclude household brands such as Apple or Microsoft. Is there a

:39:47. > :39:49.Apple or Microsoft. Is there a disconnect with mainstream America.

:39:49. > :39:50.disconnect with mainstream America. disconnect with mainstream America.

:39:50. > :39:50.A recent national survey found 63% A recent national survey found 63%

:39:50. > :39:51.A recent national survey found 63% of Americans believed their country

:39:51. > :39:52.of Americans believed their country of Americans believed their country

:39:52. > :39:53.to still be in recession, even to still be in recession, even

:39:53. > :39:54.to still be in recession, even to still be in recession, even

:39:54. > :39:55.though it is not. And well they though it is not. And well they

:39:55. > :39:56.though it is not. And well they though it is not. And well they

:39:56. > :39:57.might feel that way. The number of might feel that way. The number of

:39:57. > :39:58.might feel that way. The number of unemployed people has doubled to 12

:39:58. > :39:58.unemployed people has doubled to 12 unemployed people has doubled to 12

:39:58. > :40:00.unemployed people has doubled to 12 million in the last five years. The

:40:00. > :40:01.million in the last five years. The million in the last five years. The

:40:01. > :40:02.million in the last five years. The number of people on food stamps is

:40:02. > :40:04.number of people on food stamps is number of people on food stamps is

:40:04. > :40:07.now 48 million, and the national now 48 million, and the national

:40:07. > :40:09.now 48 million, and the national American debt has jumped in five

:40:09. > :40:11.American debt has jumped in five American debt has jumped in five

:40:11. > :40:13.years from $9 trillion, to $16 years from $9 trillion, to $16

:40:13. > :40:14.years from $9 trillion, to $16 trillion. It is strange there will

:40:14. > :40:15.trillion. It is strange there will trillion. It is strange there will

:40:15. > :40:15.always be, by definition, a always be, by definition, a

:40:15. > :40:16.always be, by definition, a disconnect between the market and

:40:16. > :40:17.disconnect between the market and disconnect between the market and

:40:17. > :40:19.disconnect between the market and the economy. The market is what you

:40:19. > :40:20.the economy. The market is what you the economy. The market is what you

:40:20. > :40:21.call a discounting mechanism. It is call a discounting mechanism. It is

:40:22. > :40:23.call a discounting mechanism. It is trying to look anything from 12-18

:40:23. > :40:23.trying to look anything from 12-18 trying to look anything from 12-18

:40:23. > :40:25.months in advance. There have been months in advance. There have been

:40:25. > :40:26.months in advance. There have been rather more than just green shoots

:40:26. > :40:27.rather more than just green shoots rather more than just green shoots

:40:27. > :40:29.in terms of economic recovery in in terms of economic recovery in

:40:29. > :40:30.the states. Unemployment generally the states. Unemployment generally

:40:30. > :40:33.the states. Unemployment generally speaking is going in the right

:40:33. > :40:34.speaking is going in the right direction, downwards, and set

:40:34. > :40:35.direction, downwards, and set direction, downwards, and set

:40:35. > :40:36.alongside that there are increasing alongside that there are increasing

:40:36. > :40:37.alongside that there are increasing alongside that there are increasing

:40:37. > :40:38.signs of a recovery in the housing signs of a recovery in the housing

:40:38. > :40:39.signs of a recovery in the housing market. That is very important in

:40:39. > :40:39.market. That is very important in market. That is very important in

:40:39. > :40:41.market. That is very important in terms of the US economy. Unless we

:40:41. > :40:43.terms of the US economy. Unless we terms of the US economy. Unless we

:40:43. > :40:45.start getting cocky over here, the start getting cocky over here, the

:40:45. > :40:47.start getting cocky over here, the FTSE share hit an all-time high

:40:47. > :40:48.FTSE share hit an all-time high FTSE share hit an all-time high

:40:48. > :40:49.FTSE share hit an all-time high today, with the FTSE 100 not far

:40:49. > :40:50.today, with the FTSE 100 not far today, with the FTSE 100 not far

:40:50. > :40:51.today, with the FTSE 100 not far off its own peak too. Just like the

:40:51. > :40:53.off its own peak too. Just like the off its own peak too. Just like the

:40:53. > :40:55.states, big British firms are doing states, big British firms are doing

:40:55. > :40:56.states, big British firms are doing very well, while the economy stares

:40:56. > :40:58.very well, while the economy stares very well, while the economy stares

:40:58. > :40:59.down the barrel of a triple-dip down the barrel of a triple-dip

:40:59. > :41:00.down the barrel of a triple-dip recession. One of the problems both

:41:00. > :41:02.recession. One of the problems both recession. One of the problems both

:41:02. > :41:03.in continental Europe and also the in continental Europe and also the

:41:03. > :41:06.in continental Europe and also the UK, is the austerity necessary to

:41:06. > :41:07.UK, is the austerity necessary to UK, is the austerity necessary to

:41:07. > :41:08.bring down deficits is really bring down deficits is really

:41:08. > :41:09.bring down deficits is really impacting the economy that is weak

:41:09. > :41:10.impacting the economy that is weak impacting the economy that is weak

:41:10. > :41:11.impacting the economy that is weak to start with. It is preventing the

:41:11. > :41:12.to start with. It is preventing the to start with. It is preventing the

:41:12. > :41:13.UK economy and the continental UK economy and the continental

:41:13. > :41:14.UK economy and the continental European economy from growing. That

:41:14. > :41:18.European economy from growing. That European economy from growing. That

:41:18. > :41:20.European economy from growing. That does mean the backdrop is a lot

:41:20. > :41:21.does mean the backdrop is a lot does mean the backdrop is a lot

:41:21. > :41:23.more pessimistic. The last two more pessimistic. The last two

:41:23. > :41:24.more pessimistic. The last two stock market peaks were followed

:41:24. > :41:26.stock market peaks were followed stock market peaks were followed

:41:26. > :41:28.closely by recessions, that will closely by recessions, that will

:41:28. > :41:29.affect big companies, but disproportionately tax-payers,

:41:29. > :41:30.disproportionately tax-payers, disproportionately tax-payers,

:41:30. > :41:33.already reeling from the worst already reeling from the worst

:41:33. > :41:34.downturn in a century. downturn in a century.

:41:34. > :41:35.downturn in a century. Back to the announcement of the

:41:35. > :41:36.Back to the announcement of the Back to the announcement of the

:41:36. > :41:37.Back to the announcement of the death of Hugo Chavez. On the phone

:41:37. > :41:39.death of Hugo Chavez. On the phone death of Hugo Chavez. On the phone

:41:39. > :41:42.death of Hugo Chavez. On the phone is my guest, head of Latin American

:41:42. > :41:43.is my guest, head of Latin American Studies at Middlesex University,

:41:43. > :41:43.Studies at Middlesex University, Studies at Middlesex University,

:41:43. > :41:45.Studies at Middlesex University, from New York we have our guest

:41:46. > :41:47.from New York we have our guest from New York we have our guest

:41:47. > :41:50.from the Council for Foreign from the Council for Foreign

:41:50. > :41:52.from the Council for Foreign Relations, and the editor of BBC

:41:52. > :41:53.Relations, and the editor of BBC Relations, and the editor of BBC

:41:53. > :41:55.Relations, and the editor of BBC Mundo. You met him, how is this

:41:55. > :41:56.Mundo. You met him, how is this Mundo. You met him, how is this

:41:56. > :41:59.being received in Venezuela? I met being received in Venezuela? I met

:41:59. > :42:01.being received in Venezuela? I met him here in London, actually, when

:42:01. > :42:03.him here in London, actually, when him here in London, actually, when

:42:03. > :42:03.he came over, invited by Ken he came over, invited by Ken

:42:03. > :42:04.he came over, invited by Ken Livingston, the Mayor of London at

:42:04. > :42:05.Livingston, the Mayor of London at Livingston, the Mayor of London at

:42:05. > :42:06.Livingston, the Mayor of London at the time. How did he seem to you,

:42:06. > :42:08.the time. How did he seem to you, the time. How did he seem to you,

:42:08. > :42:09.the time. How did he seem to you, what kind of man did you think he

:42:09. > :42:14.what kind of man did you think he what kind of man did you think he

:42:14. > :42:16.what kind of man did you think he was? Well he was quite a jolly,

:42:16. > :42:18.was? Well he was quite a jolly, was? Well he was quite a jolly,

:42:18. > :42:20.open and chatty person. He tended open and chatty person. He tended

:42:21. > :42:22.open and chatty person. He tended to break protocol and was quite

:42:22. > :42:23.to break protocol and was quite approachable in every possible

:42:23. > :42:24.approachable in every possible approachable in every possible

:42:24. > :42:26.respect. He was an ordinary, very respect. He was an ordinary, very

:42:26. > :42:27.respect. He was an ordinary, very respect. He was an ordinary, very

:42:27. > :42:28.nice person. What do you think the nice person. What do you think the

:42:28. > :42:29.nice person. What do you think the nice person. What do you think the

:42:29. > :42:30.legacy is in Venezuela? I think the legacy is in Venezuela? I think the

:42:30. > :42:32.legacy is in Venezuela? I think the legacy is one of immense

:42:32. > :42:33.legacy is one of immense progressiveness. The transformation

:42:33. > :42:34.progressiveness. The transformation progressiveness. The transformation

:42:34. > :42:35.of our society through social of our society through social

:42:35. > :42:37.of our society through social progress and expansion of democracy

:42:37. > :42:37.progress and expansion of democracy progress and expansion of democracy

:42:37. > :42:40.progress and expansion of democracy is just incredible. I think we will

:42:40. > :42:41.is just incredible. I think we will is just incredible. I think we will

:42:41. > :42:42.is just incredible. I think we will be able to see in the next coming

:42:42. > :42:43.be able to see in the next coming be able to see in the next coming

:42:43. > :42:44.be able to see in the next coming years, there is no question of it,

:42:45. > :42:46.years, there is no question of it, years, there is no question of it,

:42:46. > :42:46.millions and millions of people millions and millions of people

:42:46. > :42:47.millions and millions of people millions and millions of people

:42:47. > :42:48.have benefited so much as a result have benefited so much as a result

:42:48. > :42:50.have benefited so much as a result of the various policies that were

:42:50. > :42:53.of the various policies that were of the various policies that were

:42:53. > :42:53.implemented. In that sense, the implemented. In that sense, the

:42:53. > :42:56.legacy symbolises the possibility legacy symbolises the possibility

:42:56. > :42:58.legacy symbolises the possibility of doing something much better. I

:42:58. > :42:59.of doing something much better. I of doing something much better. I

:42:59. > :43:00.think this radiates in the whole think this radiates in the whole

:43:00. > :43:03.think this radiates in the whole continent, and much further afield

:43:03. > :43:05.continent, and much further afield continent, and much further afield

:43:05. > :43:06.in that. This has been closely in that. This has been closely

:43:06. > :43:07.in that. This has been closely in that. This has been closely

:43:07. > :43:08.watched in a lot of other soit watched in a lot of other soit

:43:08. > :43:09.watched in a lot of other soit American countries, Cuba is looking

:43:09. > :43:11.American countries, Cuba is looking American countries, Cuba is looking

:43:11. > :43:12.American countries, Cuba is looking at it, because that is where he is?

:43:12. > :43:13.at it, because that is where he is? at it, because that is where he is?

:43:13. > :43:15.at it, because that is where he is? At the moment Cuba is looking very

:43:15. > :43:16.At the moment Cuba is looking very At the moment Cuba is looking very

:43:16. > :43:17.careful low. Because actually some careful low. Because actually some

:43:17. > :43:18.careful low. Because actually some people in Cuba think that they

:43:18. > :43:20.people in Cuba think that they people in Cuba think that they

:43:20. > :43:21.remember the collapse of the Soviet remember the collapse of the Soviet

:43:21. > :43:24.remember the collapse of the Soviet Union, why? Because Hugo Chavez

:43:24. > :43:25.Union, why? Because Hugo Chavez Union, why? Because Hugo Chavez

:43:25. > :43:27.Union, why? Because Hugo Chavez decided to give 100 barrels of --

:43:27. > :43:30.decided to give 100 barrels of -- decided to give 100 barrels of --

:43:30. > :43:32.100,000 barrels of oil to Cuba 100,000 barrels of oil to Cuba

:43:32. > :43:32.100,000 barrels of oil to Cuba 100,000 barrels of oil to Cuba

:43:32. > :43:34.every day. Its economy depend on it. every day. Its economy depend on it.

:43:34. > :43:35.every day. Its economy depend on it. They will be watching carefully

:43:35. > :43:36.They will be watching carefully They will be watching carefully

:43:36. > :43:38.what happened. We know if the what happened. We know if the

:43:38. > :43:39.what happened. We know if the Chavez revolution is a one-man show

:43:39. > :43:40.Chavez revolution is a one-man show Chavez revolution is a one-man show

:43:40. > :43:41.Chavez revolution is a one-man show or he has a successor or not, we

:43:41. > :43:42.or he has a successor or not, we or he has a successor or not, we

:43:42. > :43:43.or he has a successor or not, we will see that in the next 30 days

:43:43. > :43:43.will see that in the next 30 days will see that in the next 30 days

:43:43. > :43:44.will see that in the next 30 days before we need to call an election.

:43:44. > :43:45.before we need to call an election. before we need to call an election.

:43:45. > :43:46.before we need to call an election. What is your bet on that?

:43:46. > :43:46.What is your bet on that? What is your bet on that?

:43:46. > :43:47.What is your bet on that? wouldn't be able to put any money

:43:48. > :43:49.wouldn't be able to put any money wouldn't be able to put any money

:43:49. > :43:50.wouldn't be able to put any money on that. We need to watch this

:43:50. > :43:51.on that. We need to watch this on that. We need to watch this

:43:51. > :43:52.carefully, because in the last more carefully, because in the last more

:43:52. > :43:53.carefully, because in the last more carefully, because in the last more

:43:53. > :43:54.than ten years he was in power, he than ten years he was in power, he

:43:54. > :43:56.than ten years he was in power, he controlled the whole estate, he was

:43:56. > :43:57.controlled the whole estate, he was controlled the whole estate, he was

:43:57. > :44:02.controlled the whole estate, he was a one-man show, and he was a big

:44:02. > :44:04.a one-man show, and he was a big a one-man show, and he was a big

:44:04. > :44:05.personality. Hugo Chavez is famed personality. Hugo Chavez is famed

:44:05. > :44:07.personality. Hugo Chavez is famed for calling the ex-President gush,

:44:07. > :44:10.for calling the ex-President gush, for calling the ex-President gush,

:44:10. > :44:13.for calling the ex-President gush, for calling the ex-President gush,

:44:13. > :44:14.a devil. Is this a point to reset - a devil. Is this a point to reset -

:44:14. > :44:17.a devil. Is this a point to reset - a devil. Is this a point to reset -

:44:17. > :44:17.- George Bush a devil. Is this a - George Bush a devil. Is this a

:44:17. > :44:20.- George Bush a devil. Is this a point to reset relationships?

:44:20. > :44:21.point to reset relationships? point to reset relationships?

:44:22. > :44:22.a point to reset the relationships. a point to reset the relationships.

:44:22. > :44:24.a point to reset the relationships. We heard the heir apparent to

:44:24. > :44:25.We heard the heir apparent to We heard the heir apparent to

:44:25. > :44:26.Chavez within his party, coming out Chavez within his party, coming out

:44:26. > :44:28.Chavez within his party, coming out with strong words against the

:44:28. > :44:29.with strong words against the with strong words against the

:44:29. > :44:29.United States, accusing two US United States, accusing two US

:44:29. > :44:32.United States, accusing two US diplomats of spying on Venezuela

:44:32. > :44:32.diplomats of spying on Venezuela diplomats of spying on Venezuela

:44:32. > :44:36.and causing Chavez's cancer. I and causing Chavez's cancer. I

:44:36. > :44:37.and causing Chavez's cancer. I don't see a re prochment

:44:37. > :44:38.don't see a re prochment don't see a re prochment

:44:38. > :44:39.immediately between the two -- immediately between the two --

:44:39. > :44:40.reproachment between the two reproachment between the two

:44:40. > :44:42.reproachment between the two countries. There is a chance to

:44:42. > :44:43.countries. There is a chance to countries. There is a chance to

:44:43. > :44:45.rebegin the space between the two rebegin the space between the two

:44:45. > :44:46.rebegin the space between the two countries to find areas to work

:44:46. > :44:48.countries to find areas to work countries to find areas to work

:44:48. > :44:49.together on. Both privately and together on. Both privately and

:44:49. > :44:51.together on. Both privately and publicly. By extension, because he

:44:51. > :44:52.publicly. By extension, because he publicly. By extension, because he

:44:52. > :44:53.was close, Bolivia, Argentina, do was close, Bolivia, Argentina, do

:44:53. > :44:54.was close, Bolivia, Argentina, do was close, Bolivia, Argentina, do

:44:54. > :44:56.you think there will be a possible you think there will be a possible

:44:56. > :44:56.you think there will be a possible change in relations with these

:44:56. > :45:00.change in relations with these change in relations with these

:45:00. > :45:02.change in relations with these other countries, and the US? We may

:45:02. > :45:04.other countries, and the US? We may other countries, and the US? We may

:45:04. > :45:06.see some change, very few other see some change, very few other

:45:06. > :45:07.see some change, very few other countries got into the real vitriol,

:45:07. > :45:08.countries got into the real vitriol, countries got into the real vitriol,

:45:08. > :45:08.the name-calling between the two the name-calling between the two

:45:08. > :45:11.the name-calling between the two countries. You haven't seen that

:45:11. > :45:13.countries. You haven't seen that countries. You haven't seen that

:45:13. > :45:14.from the most important neighbours, from the most important neighbours,

:45:14. > :45:17.from the most important neighbours, to Venezuela, Brazil or Columbia,

:45:17. > :45:18.to Venezuela, Brazil or Columbia, to Venezuela, Brazil or Columbia,

:45:18. > :45:19.or even Argentina, where there are or even Argentina, where there are

:45:19. > :45:20.or even Argentina, where there are some issues of tension between the

:45:20. > :45:22.some issues of tension between the some issues of tension between the

:45:22. > :45:24.nations. It is not about Venezuela. nations. It is not about Venezuela.

:45:24. > :45:25.nations. It is not about Venezuela. nations. It is not about Venezuela.

:45:25. > :45:26.Tell me, do you think that the Vice Tell me, do you think that the Vice

:45:26. > :45:27.Tell me, do you think that the Vice President, is a strong enough

:45:27. > :45:28.President, is a strong enough President, is a strong enough

:45:28. > :45:29.character to come forward, or do character to come forward, or do

:45:29. > :45:31.character to come forward, or do character to come forward, or do

:45:31. > :45:31.you think there will be a serious you think there will be a serious

:45:31. > :45:33.you think there will be a serious challenge? He's trying to look very

:45:34. > :45:35.challenge? He's trying to look very challenge? He's trying to look very

:45:35. > :45:37.challenge? He's trying to look very strong. We need to put this into

:45:37. > :45:38.strong. We need to put this into strong. We need to put this into

:45:38. > :45:40.context. The last election the context. The last election the

:45:40. > :45:41.context. The last election the opposition came very strong 45% of

:45:41. > :45:42.opposition came very strong 45% of opposition came very strong 45% of

:45:42. > :45:44.opposition came very strong 45% of the vote. That was the best time,

:45:44. > :45:44.the vote. That was the best time, the vote. That was the best time,

:45:44. > :45:46.the vote. That was the best time, last October, for them. Now he has

:45:46. > :45:46.last October, for them. Now he has last October, for them. Now he has

:45:46. > :45:47.a real challenge, but the a real challenge, but the

:45:47. > :45:48.a real challenge, but the opposition at the same time is

:45:48. > :45:49.opposition at the same time is opposition at the same time is

:45:49. > :45:50.pretty week. Although they got 45% pretty week. Although they got 45%

:45:50. > :45:52.pretty week. Although they got 45% pretty week. Although they got 45%

:45:52. > :45:53.of the vote last time. We have 30 of the vote last time. We have 30

:45:53. > :45:54.of the vote last time. We have 30 of the vote last time. We have 30

:45:54. > :45:57.days, that is going to be a days, that is going to be a

:45:57. > :45:57.days, that is going to be a days, that is going to be a

:45:57. > :45:59.campaign, and then we will see how campaign, and then we will see how

:45:59. > :46:01.campaign, and then we will see how campaign, and then we will see how

:46:01. > :46:03.strong they will come out when they strong they will come out when they

:46:03. > :46:05.go to the polls. go to the polls.

:46:05. > :46:06.go to the polls. From your perspective, what loader

:46:06. > :46:09.From your perspective, what loader From your perspective, what loader

:46:09. > :46:10.do you think might emerge. Because do you think might emerge. Because

:46:10. > :46:11.do you think might emerge. Because do you think might emerge. Because

:46:11. > :46:13.it was just said that election in it was just said that election in

:46:13. > :46:14.it was just said that election in October was the most closely-fought

:46:14. > :46:15.October was the most closely-fought October was the most closely-fought

:46:15. > :46:16.October was the most closely-fought election there had been? I think it

:46:16. > :46:18.election there had been? I think it election there had been? I think it

:46:18. > :46:20.election there had been? I think it will be very hard for anyone except

:46:20. > :46:21.will be very hard for anyone except will be very hard for anyone except

:46:21. > :46:22.for the Chavez candidate, exit for for the Chavez candidate, exit for

:46:22. > :46:23.for the Chavez candidate, exit for for the Chavez candidate, exit for

:46:23. > :46:24.the Vice President to win this next the Vice President to win this next

:46:24. > :46:25.the Vice President to win this next the Vice President to win this next

:46:25. > :46:26.election. It is only 30 days from election. It is only 30 days from

:46:26. > :46:26.election. It is only 30 days from election. It is only 30 days from

:46:27. > :46:29.now. The next two or three weeks now. The next two or three weeks

:46:29. > :46:31.now. The next two or three weeks will be dominated by a state

:46:31. > :46:33.will be dominated by a state funeral, by Hall of

:46:33. > :46:35.funeral, by Hall of funeral, by Hall of

:46:35. > :46:36.Remembranceances of Chavez. And his Remembranceances of Chavez. And his

:46:36. > :46:37.Remembranceances of Chavez. And his -- by other remembrances of Chavez.

:46:37. > :46:38.-- by other remembrances of Chavez. -- by other remembrances of Chavez.

:46:38. > :46:40.-- by other remembrances of Chavez. And his party almost had a Queen

:46:40. > :46:41.And his party almost had a Queen And his party almost had a Queen

:46:41. > :46:42.sleep in elections recently, they sleep in elections recently, they

:46:42. > :46:44.sleep in elections recently, they only lost one governor. I think

:46:44. > :46:45.only lost one governor. I think only lost one governor. I think

:46:45. > :46:47.Chavez's party will remain on top. Chavez's party will remain on top.

:46:47. > :46:48.Chavez's party will remain on top. Chavez's party will remain on top.

:46:48. > :46:48.If you look at several months, the If you look at several months, the

:46:48. > :46:49.medium-to-long-term, the opposition medium-to-long-term, the opposition

:46:49. > :46:50.medium-to-long-term, the opposition medium-to-long-term, the opposition

:46:50. > :46:52.may be able to come together and may be able to come together and

:46:52. > :46:53.may be able to come together and give a run for their moneyor

:46:53. > :46:54.give a run for their moneyor give a run for their moneyor

:46:54. > :46:56.Chavez's party, when Chavez is not there.

:46:56. > :46:56.there. there.

:46:56. > :46:57.there. Thank you very much, that is us

:46:57. > :46:58.Thank you very much, that is us Thank you very much, that is us

:46:58. > :46:59.Thank you very much, that is us right out of time, from all of us

:46:59. > :47:09.right out of time, from all of us right out of time, from all of us

:47:09. > :47:11.

:47:11. > :47:13.It has been a day of contrast, up It has been a day of contrast, up

:47:13. > :47:13.It has been a day of contrast, up It has been a day of contrast, up

:47:13. > :47:14.to 17 degrees in the sunshine. Two to 17 degrees in the sunshine. Two

:47:14. > :47:15.to 17 degrees in the sunshine. Two degrees where it stayed fogy. We

:47:15. > :47:15.degrees where it stayed fogy. We degrees where it stayed fogy. We

:47:16. > :47:17.degrees where it stayed fogy. We start the day on Wednesday with a

:47:17. > :47:17.start the day on Wednesday with a start the day on Wednesday with a

:47:17. > :47:18.start the day on Wednesday with a lot of cloud. Not anything like as

:47:18. > :47:20.lot of cloud. Not anything like as lot of cloud. Not anything like as

:47:20. > :47:21.lot of cloud. Not anything like as much sunshine as many of us saw son

:47:21. > :47:23.much sunshine as many of us saw son much sunshine as many of us saw son

:47:23. > :47:23.Tuesday. Dampness too out west. Tuesday. Dampness too out west.

:47:23. > :47:24.Tuesday. Dampness too out west. Tuesday. Dampness too out west.

:47:24. > :47:25.Further east there won't be much in Further east there won't be much in

:47:25. > :47:26.Further east there won't be much in Further east there won't be much in

:47:26. > :47:27.the rain. There will be cloud we the rain. There will be cloud we

:47:27. > :47:29.the rain. There will be cloud we will notice. Any brightness will be

:47:29. > :47:30.will notice. Any brightness will be will notice. Any brightness will be

:47:30. > :47:31.will notice. Any brightness will be at a premium. It might brighten up

:47:31. > :47:32.at a premium. It might brighten up at a premium. It might brighten up

:47:32. > :47:35.later on across southern counties, later on across southern counties,

:47:35. > :47:36.later on across southern counties, we will probably reach 11-12, not

:47:36. > :47:37.we will probably reach 11-12, not we will probably reach 11-12, not

:47:37. > :47:38.as warm in places during Tuesday. as warm in places during Tuesday.

:47:38. > :47:39.as warm in places during Tuesday. Further dampness, on and off,

:47:39. > :47:40.Further dampness, on and off, Further dampness, on and off,

:47:40. > :47:41.affecting the more western parts of affecting the more western parts of

:47:41. > :47:42.affecting the more western parts of affecting the more western parts of

:47:42. > :47:43.England and Wales. It won't be a England and Wales. It won't be a

:47:43. > :47:44.England and Wales. It won't be a washout, there will be some dry

:47:44. > :47:45.washout, there will be some dry washout, there will be some dry

:47:45. > :47:45.washout, there will be some dry spells, but not much in the way of

:47:45. > :47:46.spells, but not much in the way of spells, but not much in the way of

:47:47. > :47:48.sunshine. There will be the threat sunshine. There will be the threat

:47:48. > :47:50.sunshine. There will be the threat sunshine. There will be the threat

:47:50. > :47:51.of rain on and off through the day of rain on and off through the day

:47:51. > :47:53.of rain on and off through the day across parts of Wales and England.

:47:53. > :47:53.across parts of Wales and England. across parts of Wales and England.

:47:53. > :47:54.The threat of rain increases across The threat of rain increases across

:47:54. > :47:56.The threat of rain increases across Northern Ireland as we go through

:47:56. > :47:56.Northern Ireland as we go through Northern Ireland as we go through

:47:56. > :47:58.Northern Ireland as we go through the day. For Scotland some of the

:47:58. > :47:59.the day. For Scotland some of the the day. For Scotland some of the

:47:59. > :48:00.the day. For Scotland some of the best of the sunshine will be across

:48:00. > :48:01.best of the sunshine will be across best of the sunshine will be across

:48:01. > :48:02.the Highlands and Ireland, with the Highlands and Ireland, with

:48:02. > :48:04.the Highlands and Ireland, with shelter from the mountains from the

:48:04. > :48:04.shelter from the mountains from the shelter from the mountains from the

:48:04. > :48:06.nagging Eastleigh breeze. That will nagging Eastleigh breeze. That will

:48:06. > :48:07.nagging Eastleigh breeze. That will be a cold breeze. That will

:48:07. > :48:08.be a cold breeze. That will be a cold breeze. That will

:48:08. > :48:11.continue across many northern areas continue across many northern areas

:48:11. > :48:11.through Wednesday, and Thursday. through Wednesday, and Thursday.

:48:11. > :48:13.through Wednesday, and Thursday. Bleak across eastern parts of

:48:13. > :48:14.Bleak across eastern parts of Scotland and north-east England.

:48:14. > :48:15.Scotland and north-east England. Scotland and north-east England.

:48:16. > :48:17.Head southwards, not so cold, but Head southwards, not so cold, but

:48:17. > :48:18.Head southwards, not so cold, but Head southwards, not so cold, but

:48:18. > :48:19.not much in the way of brightness not much in the way of brightness

:48:19. > :48:20.not much in the way of brightness here either. A cloudy scene through

:48:20. > :48:22.here either. A cloudy scene through Wednesday and Thursday, with

:48:22. > :48:23.Wednesday and Thursday, with Wednesday and Thursday, with

:48:23. > :48:24.outbreak of rain. This is outbreak of rain. This is

:48:24. > :48:26.outbreak of rain. This is Thursday's picture. Blobs of blue

:48:26. > :48:27.Thursday's picture. Blobs of blue Thursday's picture. Blobs of blue

:48:27. > :48:28.around, you will notice. Don't take around, you will notice. Don't take