:00:13. > :00:18.Tonight, as President Chavez is mourned in Cuba, Bolivia and across
:00:18. > :00:21.the world, as well as in his own country, Venezuela, did he waste
:00:21. > :00:26.billions of dollars in oil wealth, or bring a degree of social justice
:00:26. > :00:30.to the poor? Also tonight, as the number of refugees reaches one
:00:30. > :00:33.million in Syria, the Government promises armoured vehicles and body
:00:33. > :00:38.armour to the main opposition. Should we give them bullets and
:00:38. > :00:41.guns as well? We cannot look the other way while
:00:41. > :00:45.international law and human rights are flouted. We cannot step back
:00:45. > :00:49.from a crisis that could destablise the heart of the Middle East.
:00:49. > :00:53.payday loan companies have 12 weeks to clean up their act or else. We
:00:53. > :00:57.discuss with the payday loan boss and campaigning MP, whether
:00:57. > :01:04.stricter advertising guidelines will make any difference. 30 years
:01:04. > :01:07.after Argentina planted this flag on the Falkland. What do the
:01:07. > :01:09.Argentinians make of the islanders holding a referendum on their
:01:09. > :01:13.future. TRANSLATION: What is the point in asking these people if
:01:13. > :01:23.they want to be British, it is like asking an Argentinian if he wants
:01:23. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:31.Good evening, Hugo Chavez is not dead, he's immortal. That, at least,
:01:31. > :01:34.was the tone of the mourning on the streets of Caracus today. His
:01:34. > :01:38.revolution is irreversible, according to the Government of Cuba.
:01:38. > :01:41.But is it? Will the passing of the man who was a thorn in the side of
:01:41. > :01:46.the United States, mean a major change to the politics of Latin
:01:46. > :01:50.America. Did he really use $1 trillion of Venezuela's oil wealth
:01:50. > :01:54.to transform his country, as his supporters claim, or is the real
:01:54. > :01:57.Chavez legacy one of posturing, waste, authoritarianism and lost
:01:57. > :02:02.opportunities. In a moment, Paul Mason will assess the economic
:02:02. > :02:06.legacy of the man known as El Comandante. First I'm joined from
:02:06. > :02:10.Caracus, which has seen extraordinary scenes today, by
:02:10. > :02:18.Venezuela's ambassador to the UK. There is a short delay on the line.
:02:18. > :02:23.What were the scenes that you witnessed like in Caracas today?
:02:23. > :02:28.Thank you for the invitation. The scenes today are historic scenes,
:02:28. > :02:32.because we are witnessing the passing of the most popular man in
:02:32. > :02:37.perhaps the last 150 years in our history. One of the most popular
:02:37. > :02:41.and respected men in Latin America. So the hundreds of thousands of
:02:41. > :02:45.Venezuelans who poured on to the streets to pay their respect to
:02:45. > :02:49.their leader. They did it in a very quiet way. They were expressing
:02:49. > :02:54.their emotions. You could see there was no trouble whatsoeverment they
:02:54. > :02:58.were marching along, crying, but also celebrating his life. Making
:02:58. > :03:03.sure that his legacy would go on in the future. You say that, but how
:03:03. > :03:13.can you be sure that it won't simply be rolled back when the new
:03:13. > :03:13.
:03:13. > :03:20.President comes in, in 30 days? new President, who will be elected
:03:20. > :03:22.over the next four weeks, almost surely will be Gabriel Mudingayi,
:03:22. > :03:26.because he's the one -- Nicolas Maduro, because he's the one,
:03:26. > :03:29.chosen by the people, even today you could say that this mourning
:03:30. > :03:36.march with hundreds of thousands, they were also pushing for Maduro,
:03:36. > :03:42.because he as the one who can guarantee that Chavez's work will
:03:42. > :03:47.remain and will succeed. I mean Maduro and Chavez now are a kind of
:03:47. > :03:51.combination. The one important thing to know here is that Chavez
:03:51. > :03:56.changed, he brought a sea-change in Venezuelan politics, now people
:03:56. > :04:00.have to be concerned for the poor, people have to put the poor first.
:04:00. > :04:05.The poor are in the picture and welfare for the poor and concern
:04:05. > :04:09.for social issues is important. Any politician from any sector of
:04:09. > :04:12.society who doesn't follow those principles won't succeed in
:04:12. > :04:15.Venezuela. There is a new kind of politics where the poor are the
:04:15. > :04:19.priority. Please stay with us, because we
:04:19. > :04:28.want to continue this discussion. First our Economics Editor Paul
:04:28. > :04:32.Mason. In Caracus, the send-off has begun.
:04:32. > :04:36.Wall-to-wall people, mourning a President who survived a coup, won
:04:36. > :04:42.four election, but could not beat cancer. Neighbouring Presidents
:04:42. > :04:48.paid their respects, here Bolivia's Evo Morales, toiling on foot, amid
:04:48. > :04:52.the thronging crowd. The Chavez movement mourned. TRANSLATION:
:04:53. > :04:59.Chavez is alive among us and will continue this fight. Chavez sowed
:05:00. > :05:04.and he will see what he sowed, we will continue to be with Chavez.
:05:04. > :05:09.But Chavez, the root to economic radicalism, was opened by the
:05:09. > :05:16.failed military coup of 2002. With the old elite now powerless,
:05:16. > :05:23.he began what he called the Bolivarian Socialist Revolution.
:05:23. > :05:27.Over the last 12 years Venezuelan oil revenues are rocketed to $100
:05:27. > :05:31.billion a year W that money he changed things. Venezuela's poverty
:05:31. > :05:34.rate fell, outstripping the average fall for Latin America. After the
:05:34. > :05:38.financial crisis, growth was not spectacular, critics blamed the
:05:38. > :05:44.scale of nationalisation, and the flight of capital. Inflation
:05:44. > :05:49.remains persistently high. I have been close to Chavez for the
:05:49. > :05:55.best part of a decade. If anybody knows what Chavez was trying to do
:05:55. > :05:59.it is this man. A British marks igs, whose books Chavez read -- Marxist,
:05:59. > :06:05.whose books Chavez read and became a close associate. Millions of poor
:06:05. > :06:11.people in Venezuela without access to health, were provided free
:06:11. > :06:16.medical service by the Cuban doctors, which was a deal in
:06:16. > :06:21.exchange for oil and provided by Cuban doctors. And there was a
:06:21. > :06:24.report that say the that Venezuela was illiteracy-free. I don't think
:06:24. > :06:27.that gets to the heart of the question. Here is a man, you can
:06:27. > :06:33.say what you like, here is a man that gave a voice to millions of
:06:33. > :06:38.poor people that had no choice previously. Though inequality has
:06:38. > :06:40.fallen and is the lowest in Latin America, the Chavez regime came
:06:40. > :06:45.under persistent criticism from human rights groups, for political
:06:45. > :06:51.pressure on judges, and on the opposition media. For his opponents,
:06:51. > :06:56.the economic upside all comes at a price. 14 years of Chavez's rule
:06:56. > :07:02.has left Venezuela, frankly, in a shambles. It has one of the highest
:07:02. > :07:12.inflation rates in the world. On par with places like Zimbabwe or
:07:12. > :07:16.Ethiopia. It has staggering debt, large and growing fiscal deficit,
:07:16. > :07:23.crumbling infrastructure, growing blackouts and power outages are now
:07:23. > :07:33.common. Soaring crime. Almost every facet of economic life and social
:07:33. > :07:33.
:07:33. > :07:37.life in Venezuela is in worse nonthan when he found it.
:07:37. > :07:43.Chavez didn't just use the oil money at home, he used it to help
:07:43. > :07:46.Cuba, to help Argentina clear its debts. He used preferential oil
:07:46. > :07:50.prices to aid allied countries in Latin America and the Caribbean.
:07:50. > :07:54.The result is a continent visibly shifted to the left. But now
:07:55. > :08:01.Venezuela faces a new election, and the opposition is set to stand on
:08:01. > :08:06.the platform of an end to free oil for other countries. In London
:08:06. > :08:12.tonight, those signing the book of condolence know that for a
:08:12. > :08:15.revolution this one relied mightly on the will and popularity of one
:08:15. > :08:20.man. Chavez did not by any traditional definition deliver
:08:20. > :08:25.socialism. What he delivered was a capitalism of redistribution, a
:08:25. > :08:31.pro--poor capitalism. And he used the oil -- pro-poor capitalism. He
:08:31. > :08:35.use the oil money to defy the United States and gain diplomatic
:08:35. > :08:38.independence like no-one else in Latin America. Where Venezuela goes
:08:38. > :08:42.next depends on how that can survive without the personality of
:08:42. > :08:47.the man himself. While some expect a phase of moderation after this
:08:47. > :08:53.mass outpouring of grief, others want the masses, thus mobilised, to
:08:53. > :08:56.push things further. You can't plan what you don't control. You don't
:08:56. > :08:59.control what you don't own. In other words they have done half the
:08:59. > :09:08.job, but the other half remains to be done. And the job as far as you
:09:08. > :09:13.are concerned would be that classic socialist transformation? Oh yes.
:09:13. > :09:16.We will never know what Hugo Chavez would have done with his fourth
:09:16. > :09:25.presidential term. What his successor does will have impact all
:09:25. > :09:29.over Latin America. The ambassador is still with us from Caracus, and
:09:29. > :09:33.we will be joined by Argentina's ambassador to the United Nations,
:09:34. > :09:38.and the documentary film-maker and who met Chavez.
:09:38. > :09:42.Ambassador, the charge against Chavez is you should be a much
:09:42. > :09:48.richer country, but he's made a mess of it. For example, a third of
:09:48. > :09:57.your oil export money is use to pay off the debt to the Chinese. It is
:09:57. > :10:02.economic lunacy? OK thank you very much for that question. One of the
:10:02. > :10:08.facts that most people ignore can you hear me? Let's see if you can
:10:08. > :10:13.hear me. I can hear you? Can you hear me now. Yes. OK, one of the
:10:13. > :10:18.facts that most, one of the facts that most people ignore is that the
:10:18. > :10:25.20 years previous to Chavez's Government the Venezuelan economy
:10:25. > :10:30.fell for almost 20%. And that was what explains Chavez's victory in
:10:31. > :10:36.1998. Even though with all the oil and money that we had previously,
:10:36. > :10:39.the Venezuelan society impoverished itself to ridiculous levels. With
:10:39. > :10:43.Chavez we have reverted that tendency, and that is why you can
:10:43. > :10:47.see millions of people voting for Chavez for more than 15 elections.
:10:47. > :10:51.So it is ridiculous to say that the country is in a shambles, when the
:10:51. > :10:54.real shambles, we had it before Chavez. OK, ambassador we will
:10:54. > :11:02.leave it there, thank you very much for joining us from Caracus.
:11:02. > :11:06.Let's go over to Arao, and Emilio Cardenas, -- Buenos Aires, and
:11:06. > :11:10.Emilio Cardenas, can you explain to me how you think the country has
:11:10. > :11:13.performed under Chavez, when we have heard that what he did was he
:11:13. > :11:23.took a country where there were huge discrepancies between rich and
:11:23. > :11:24.
:11:24. > :11:28.poor, and he allowed a degree of social justice? My major concern
:11:28. > :11:34.with these 14 years under Hugo Chavez that Venezuela has gone
:11:34. > :11:39.through has to do with the deterioration of democracy. Under
:11:39. > :11:47.Chavez the checks and balances of democracy have virtually
:11:47. > :11:52.disappeared. The legislationive body is just rubber stamping what
:11:52. > :11:57.the executive power says, the judiciary is not independent any
:11:57. > :12:05.longer. There is a major concentration of power in the hands
:12:05. > :12:10.of the executive. In addition to that, Venezuela has lost some of
:12:10. > :12:13.their fundamental freedoms. We will come on to that in greater detail
:12:14. > :12:17.for a second. Would you accept in terms of the economy that he has
:12:17. > :12:20.tried to redistribute wealth to some of the poorest people in his
:12:20. > :12:29.country, and that's why so many of them turned out today. They think
:12:29. > :12:34.he's got a grip on the economy, the right grip? Are you asking me about
:12:34. > :12:40.the situation of the Venezuelan economy now? Yes.
:12:40. > :12:48.I think that the economy is going through a major difficulty. They
:12:48. > :12:56.have just, as you know, devalued. They have a very high inflation.
:12:56. > :13:01.There are all kind of price distortions caused by the subsidise.
:13:01. > :13:04.-- subsidies. If Maduro is elected that is not going to change at all.
:13:04. > :13:10.If the opposition instead makes it to the Government in the forth
:13:10. > :13:16.coming elections, then the Venezuelan economy may begin to be
:13:16. > :13:22.rebuilt. But at this time the people of Venezuela, after the
:13:22. > :13:24.devaluation, have relatively lost a lot of the standards of living
:13:24. > :13:29.particularly compared with neighbours. The economy of
:13:29. > :13:34.Venezuela is far from being in an ideal situation. Let me bring in my
:13:34. > :13:38.guest in the stud yo. It is far from an ideal situation. We see a
:13:38. > :13:43.lot of run away inflation, and a lot of money that could have been
:13:43. > :13:48.spent on building up the intrastructure and it hasn't been
:13:48. > :13:52.done. Dfrpb infrastructure, and it hasn't been done. When talking
:13:52. > :13:57.about the flainflaigs it was 55% when chaff -- talking about
:13:57. > :14:02.inflation, it was 55% before Chavez took over the presidency. There
:14:02. > :14:06.were massive investment in infrastructure, growth last year
:14:07. > :14:11.was 5.6%. I think someone mentioned that there has been mass social
:14:11. > :14:16.investment. This is the reason why millions of Venezuelans are voting
:14:16. > :14:20.for Chavez. If the scenario this doomsday scenario presented by
:14:20. > :14:25.other speakers, it would be counterintuitive for Venezuelans to
:14:25. > :14:29.vote for Chavez. The oil production has dropped by 25% since 2001,
:14:29. > :14:34.there is a booming oil price, it is not a well-run economy? It is part
:14:34. > :14:39.of a cartel, as part of an OPEC cartel, sometimes oil production
:14:39. > :14:44.has to decrease in order for the price to remain high. What about
:14:44. > :14:49.the debts, $45 billion of debts to the Chinese, taking up oil exports
:14:50. > :14:54.a third of them just to service it, that is nuts? I know with the
:14:54. > :14:59.Government they have signed close to 300 agreements with China. Last
:14:59. > :15:02.year there was one signed for $40 billion worth of investment. It is
:15:02. > :15:06.diversifying its economy away from the US. I think this is to the
:15:06. > :15:13.benefit of the Venezuelan people. Let me bring in Emilio Cardenas
:15:13. > :15:16.again, do you accept that he was elected several times, fairly,
:15:16. > :15:19.international observers said these were fair elections. So even though
:15:19. > :15:24.there were problems with the press and some of the anti-democratic
:15:24. > :15:32.pressures you talked about, fundamentally he was the legitimate
:15:32. > :15:39.ruler of his country? I can hardly hear you, my friend. The
:15:39. > :15:43.microphones and earphones are not working well. Do you accept that he
:15:43. > :15:51.was elected several times fairly and in that sense he was a
:15:51. > :15:56.democrat? Well, to be a democrat you need more than being elected by
:15:56. > :16:00.normal elections. You need to respect the values of democracy,
:16:00. > :16:04.and you need to uphold, by the institution, respecting the working
:16:04. > :16:08.of the institutions. So I think that one thing is to look
:16:08. > :16:14.democratic, and a very different thing is to be democratic. I think
:16:14. > :16:17.that Venezuela has now a chance to recover democracy. We will see
:16:18. > :16:24.whether the opposition can grab that chance. Alternative low they
:16:24. > :16:27.will stay in a situation where they may look democratic, as I said, but
:16:27. > :16:33.where the working of the democracy is far from the normal work of a
:16:33. > :16:37.democracy. A final thought on that. Isn't that the point, that he may
:16:37. > :16:42.have done certain things for social justice, as you say, he did them by
:16:42. > :16:45.being an autocrat rather than a democrat? I find it strange that an
:16:45. > :16:49.autocrat has 15 elections in 14 years, and won three presidential
:16:49. > :16:51.elections with resounding victories. I have to be careful. But he closed
:16:51. > :16:56.down the opposition, some opposition press people, he put
:16:56. > :17:00.people in jail, without due process of law. These are not the action of
:17:00. > :17:03.a democrat? Again my understanding of these cases is probably
:17:03. > :17:09.different to yours. We don't have time to go into them. With regard
:17:09. > :17:13.to the private media, we can't forget that they essentially played
:17:13. > :17:15.an instrumental role in the US- supported coup against them. They
:17:15. > :17:18.are regulated in a way they would have been regulated in Britain.
:17:18. > :17:22.Thank you very much. In a moment, what do the payday
:17:22. > :17:32.loan companies need to do to stay in business? And 30 years on,
:17:32. > :17:38.mapping the future of the Falkland. Now, is Britain tiptoeing towards
:17:38. > :17:41.arming the members in Syria. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague,
:17:41. > :17:44.announced body armour and armoured vehicles and communication
:17:44. > :17:49.equipment will be sent to the rebels. It is to protect civilians,
:17:49. > :17:53.it is not guns and bullets, not yet. The day when we learn a million
:17:53. > :17:59.Syrians have been forced out of the country by horrific violence, one
:17:59. > :18:08.in 20 of the population. Should we avert a further humanitarian
:18:08. > :18:11.catastrophe by giving the fighters what they say they need?
:18:11. > :18:14.Faced with what he called extreme human suffering, the Foreign
:18:14. > :18:20.Secretary, William Hague, announce the UK would be stepping up support
:18:20. > :18:23.for the Sir -- announced the UK would be stepping up support for
:18:23. > :18:27.the Syrian opposition. We are identifying equipment most useful
:18:27. > :18:33.to them and most likely to save most lives. I will keep the House
:18:33. > :18:37.updated. It will certainly include armoured four-wheel drive vehicles
:18:37. > :18:40.to help opposition forces move around more quickly, and he
:18:40. > :18:46.protection equipment, including body armour. For the rebels it is
:18:46. > :18:50.not enough. They argue they need weapons and ammunition to fight Al-
:18:50. > :18:53.Assad's regime. The west has been reluctant to give them what they
:18:53. > :18:57.want. Many have pointed out that atrocities are committed on both
:18:57. > :19:01.sides of the conflict. There are fears that any guns supplied by the
:19:01. > :19:06.rest could go directly into the hands of extremists, including Al-
:19:06. > :19:10.Qaeda, known to be active in the country.
:19:10. > :19:14.The EU currently has placed an arms embargo on Syria, though Britain is
:19:14. > :19:20.pushing for it to be relaxed. All the while refugees continue to
:19:20. > :19:24.flood out of the country. With Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq,
:19:24. > :19:27.all having to provide support for hundreds of thousands of Syrians
:19:27. > :19:31.crossing their borders. The pressure for action is rising,
:19:31. > :19:36.and with the Arab League saying today that their members are free
:19:36. > :19:41.to offer military support to the rebels, just how long will it be
:19:41. > :19:46.before British supplied weapons are being used in Siria.
:19:46. > :19:49.Gareth Owen from Save The Children has returned from the region, and
:19:50. > :19:53.the chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee is also with us.
:19:53. > :19:58.What conditions are there in Syria? They are truly awful, unimagineably
:19:59. > :20:03.awful. If you are a refugee, and we have reached a grim milestone where
:20:03. > :20:07.one million have come, and half a million Syria. Millions of Syrians
:20:07. > :20:12.are living in abject conditions. We are watching a middle income
:20:12. > :20:15.country slowly but surely be completely destroyed. You are in a
:20:15. > :20:21.humanitarian organisation, do you accept that the only thing to stop
:20:21. > :20:25.this is ending the war, which means overthrowing Al-Assad, which means
:20:25. > :20:29.someone may have to give guns to the rebels? I do think the end to
:20:29. > :20:32.suffering is ending the war. We have to demand the global world
:20:32. > :20:36.leadership finds a way to unite and create some actionable plan to
:20:36. > :20:40.bring about the end of the conflict. To go as far as to say do I think
:20:40. > :20:45.that is a question of arming the rebels. I think that is for others
:20:45. > :20:48.to answer. Require Malcolm Rifkind raised it in the Commons. I
:20:48. > :20:53.wondered if you thought armoured vehicles and flack jackets, and
:20:53. > :20:57.water purification might be fine, but it won't bring it on an end?
:20:58. > :21:02.Malcolm did raise it, I don't agree with him. I think there is a big
:21:02. > :21:06.difference to giving aid to civic and rebel leaders we know. And
:21:06. > :21:10.giving weapons and ammunition to hard-nosed militants who come from
:21:10. > :21:16.all over the world to cause trouble, whom we don't know, and whose
:21:16. > :21:21.intentions are unclear. Those, by definition, would be the wrong
:21:21. > :21:24.hands. The recognised head of the opposition army, said they need
:21:24. > :21:27.anti-aircraft missiles and aircraft, that would stop the stilling of the
:21:27. > :21:31.civilians? I think William Hague has got right. There has been a
:21:31. > :21:35.step forward, announced today, we are providing more protective
:21:35. > :21:39.weapons for the rebel leaders, we are providing testing equipment to
:21:39. > :21:43.see if Al-Assad starts using chemical weapons. This is all very
:21:43. > :21:51.important, but if you start going into the anti-tang territory, where
:21:51. > :22:00.does it go? It is not -- anti-tang territory, where does it go. It is
:22:00. > :22:03.Jihadis flocking in all from all over the world. That is the dilemma
:22:03. > :22:09.for humanitarian organisations, I know you hate to say that people
:22:09. > :22:13.need to be armed, but you need to stop the tangs and the planes?
:22:13. > :22:19.on the side of the Syrians, and not on an armed group. I have worked in
:22:19. > :22:22.conflict for 20 years, it ends up in the same place. Whether it is
:22:22. > :22:26.Somali, where I started out, or the Balkans, sooner or later you get
:22:26. > :22:29.into this debai. We have a more immediate concern, not to doubly
:22:29. > :22:36.fail the people of Syria. If we can't find a political solution
:22:36. > :22:39.quickly, that is a shame. It would be a disgrace if we didn't upscale
:22:39. > :22:43.the urgent humanitarian relief, not reaching the people in Syria in
:22:43. > :22:45.adequate cannotties at the moment. Part of the debate you have already
:22:46. > :22:50.raised, the specter of Afghanistan and Iraq, where guns did fall into
:22:50. > :22:54.the hands of other people, you arm one lot and it turns out to be the
:22:54. > :22:58.Taliban or Al-Qaeda who get T on the other hand there is Bosnia, as
:22:58. > :23:02.was suggested, and Rwanda, where we didn't do anything, and now you
:23:02. > :23:06.know did nothing but hand wringing afterwards? It is slightly academic
:23:06. > :23:10.as to whether or not we should be supplying arms to the rebels. They
:23:10. > :23:16.are being supplied already by other people. The Arab League have now
:23:16. > :23:20.said, but not enough? You say that. There seems to be a lot of stuff
:23:20. > :23:24.going in there, whoever is supplying at the moment I'm sure
:23:24. > :23:28.can up it. We have to carry people with us, the United Nations won't
:23:28. > :23:34.back this, as long as China and Russia are exercising a veto. The
:23:34. > :23:37.EU is being fairly supportive, but up to a point. I think actually in
:23:37. > :23:44.a rational, proportion national response to what is going on at the
:23:44. > :23:47.moment, where the Foreign Secretary is the right place to be. It was a
:23:47. > :23:53.move forward? It was, closer to intervention. He left all options
:23:53. > :23:57.on the table. He did, I wondered if relaxing or threatening to relax
:23:57. > :24:01.the EU arms embargo, would that possibly be yet another step in the
:24:01. > :24:06.right direction? It would, it is more or less what he has done. He
:24:07. > :24:10.has kept his options open. He has said this is under constant review.
:24:10. > :24:14.He has made it clear that is something they will go back to.
:24:14. > :24:18.do you see things developing over the next few weeks? Not well. The
:24:18. > :24:21.history of these situations is it gets worse and worse. Six month
:24:21. > :24:24.from now we could be talking about two million refugees and a million
:24:24. > :24:29.children fleeing. Where does it end? I don't know, there is no easy
:24:29. > :24:32.answer. My experience tells me this gets worse and worse, and the
:24:32. > :24:36.humanitarian scenario become more and more acute, with increasing
:24:36. > :24:41.loss of life, and we end up a year from now in the same place, only
:24:41. > :24:45.much, much worse. You have eloquently explained the dilemma,
:24:45. > :24:49.two million refugees, three million, there is another couple of million
:24:49. > :24:53.displaced within Syria. Where do we say that is it? There is no obvious
:24:53. > :24:57.answer to this. It is, frankly, just a mess at the moment. As long
:24:57. > :25:01.as the international community can't agree on this, then we have
:25:01. > :25:04.trouble moving forward. William Hague did meet the Deputy Foreign
:25:04. > :25:07.Minister for Russia today, he's meeting the Foreign Minister next
:25:07. > :25:12.week, he will continue to put the pressure on. It is quite possible
:25:12. > :25:15.that Assad may run out of money, sooner or later, there may be other
:25:15. > :25:17.forces there who may topple him. What is going to step into the
:25:17. > :25:23.vacuum is far from clear at the moment.
:25:23. > :25:27.Thank you both very much. Fundamental problems, irresponsible
:25:27. > :25:30.lending, widespread breaches of the law and regulations, causing misery
:25:30. > :25:34.and hardship. That is the Office of Fair Trading's verdict on the
:25:34. > :25:39.payday loan industry. After researching the methods used by the
:25:39. > :25:44.50 biggest lenders in the country, Wo nark ga and the like. The loan
:25:44. > :25:53.companies have been given an ultimatum, clear up the �2 billion
:25:53. > :25:56.industry or else. Liz Matthews is not your average
:25:56. > :26:00.payday loan customer. While most have jobs, she doesn't. But in
:26:00. > :26:04.other ways she is typical. Someone in need of a short-term cash
:26:04. > :26:07.injection. Drawn in by the ease with which she could get it,
:26:07. > :26:12.undeterred by the spiralling interest payments that kicked in
:26:12. > :26:16.the moment she couldn't pay it back. Looking back now, I think how
:26:16. > :26:19.stupid I was. I got into a vicious cycle, where I borrowed all
:26:20. > :26:24.together four loan, and in the end I couldn't pay any of them back.
:26:24. > :26:29.How much was the original loan, how much do you owe now? The original
:26:29. > :26:34.loan was �300, and I owe now clearly �2,000. I was very worried,
:26:34. > :26:38.I thought how can I pay it back. You can't sleep. You can't sleep at
:26:38. > :26:42.night. Newsnight featured other payday
:26:42. > :26:48.loan customers last year. Just before the �2 billion industry was
:26:48. > :26:53.warned it had to serve them better. These borrowers arranged almost
:26:54. > :26:58.instant loans from the comfort of their smartphones. My first loan I
:26:58. > :27:04.took out a month ago, I oozed it to go out and see my friends. Without
:27:04. > :27:07.that I couldn't see them. Aided by technology and abetted by the
:27:07. > :27:11.banks' reluctance to lend, the payday loan industry has doubled in
:27:11. > :27:16.size in the last three years. The Government said today it was
:27:16. > :27:26.concerned customers were being lured into taking out unsuitable
:27:26. > :27:31.
:27:31. > :27:34.loans. With advertising offering A number of payday lenders have
:27:34. > :27:38.been laifing in a completely irresponse -- behaving in a
:27:38. > :27:41.completely irresponsible way. The OFT are putting 50% on notice over
:27:41. > :27:45.their behaviour. They are requiring them to take specific actions.
:27:45. > :27:49.Office of Fair Trading's main concerns are failure to check a
:27:49. > :27:54.customer's ability to repay a loan. Failure to explain adequately how
:27:54. > :27:57.payments will be collected. Aggressive debt collection
:27:57. > :28:01.practices, including not showing enough understanding for customers
:28:01. > :28:04.struggling to pay. Payday lenders are required to assess the
:28:04. > :28:08.affordability of every loan they make, to make sure that people can
:28:08. > :28:12.repay those loans. And yet that seems to be in conflict with the
:28:12. > :28:16.fact that they earn up to half of their revenues from customers who
:28:16. > :28:20.fail to repay their loan first time round. That suggests to us this
:28:20. > :28:23.market really isn't working the way it should, for that reason we are
:28:23. > :28:28.proposing to refer this market to the Competition Commission, it will
:28:28. > :28:32.be able to put in more radical changes if it thinks it is
:28:32. > :28:35.necessary These companies are rewarded through customers'
:28:35. > :28:38.difficulty? It would looks a though these firms are winning significant
:28:38. > :28:43.revenues, yes, from the fact that their customers are unable to pay
:28:43. > :28:47.things on time. In 12 months, the financial regulator, the FCA, will
:28:47. > :28:53.take over responsibility for the payday loan industry. It will have
:28:53. > :28:57.powers to impose a cap on the run away interest rates, which can,
:28:57. > :29:03.when loans are rolled over, snowball to several thousand per
:29:03. > :29:08.cent. When the FCA takes over the Office of Fair Trading will cease
:29:08. > :29:12.to exist. This strike against the loans' companies could be seen as a
:29:12. > :29:16.dying gasp. But the OFT prefers to call it an enforcement priority,
:29:16. > :29:20.warning that if the industry doesn't shape up within 12 short
:29:20. > :29:26.week, the worst offenders might lose their license to trade.
:29:26. > :29:31.Liz is repaying her now large loan at the rate of �3 a week. She
:29:31. > :29:34.thinks today's measures don't go far enough the When you see them
:29:34. > :29:37.advertise, it is just so easy to get, a few minutes on-line, you
:29:37. > :29:41.state how much you want. You don't really notice how much interest you
:29:41. > :29:45.are paying back. I think the interest rate should definitely be
:29:45. > :29:50.capped. It is an awful lot of money they ask you.
:29:50. > :29:54.The payday loan market says it is already put improvements in place,
:29:54. > :29:58.but will consider going further. Access to credit remains a
:29:58. > :30:03.necessary service. But they will have to show that in answering that
:30:03. > :30:07.need, they are not making a bad situation for their customers even
:30:07. > :30:14.worse. We called more than a dozen payday
:30:14. > :30:21.lenders who declined to appear tonight, but Jason Gardiner runs
:30:21. > :30:26.Friday Friday, who calls itself an ethical company. How do we dress it
:30:26. > :30:29.up asset kal, it is a pretty scumy business? There is a lot of
:30:29. > :30:32.nastiness going on about the business and rightly so. The
:30:32. > :30:36.industry has a bad reputation at the moment, that is because of the
:30:36. > :30:39.things highlighted today. The way we say they are ethical, we want to
:30:39. > :30:44.do things differently, we want regulation in the industry, we want
:30:44. > :30:51.to be seen to be different, we ant to act differently -- act
:30:51. > :30:56.differently and put the consumer first. We know the top ones are
:30:56. > :31:00.being investigated. The FT has said it is right across the sector,
:31:00. > :31:07.clawing back debts and earning up to half their revenue from rolled
:31:07. > :31:14.over deals. You do that? We limit roll overs to three. Three?
:31:14. > :31:17.three roll overs, then we convert any capital they owe into a 6-12-
:31:17. > :31:20.month loans. The you are not as bad as others, but that is seriously
:31:20. > :31:24.bad? We have to give people the option, if they can't pay after the
:31:24. > :31:27.first month, they have to have an option to do something, or what is
:31:27. > :31:30.the alternative. Most companies do what you are talking about. Why do
:31:30. > :31:35.you advertise on your website that you don't do credit check, if you
:31:35. > :31:38.do them, you don't do them the way in which banks do. That is shoddy
:31:38. > :31:44.practice this report has shown is widespread. I have just checked
:31:44. > :31:48.your website this evening? It is not on our website. I hate to go to
:31:48. > :31:54.your website, it is on there now, it says you don't do credit check,
:31:54. > :31:59.what the OFT has said it shoddy. clearly do credit checks. You say
:31:59. > :32:04.it is not on your website, but you do the same practices? We credit
:32:04. > :32:07.check every single application, we validate the bank account, address,
:32:07. > :32:12.credit history, how many payday loans and loans they have, how many
:32:12. > :32:16.credit cards they have. We do full affordability. If he didn't exist,
:32:16. > :32:20.wouldn't people go to unlicensed back street loan sharks? I don't
:32:20. > :32:25.want payday lending to end, I want it like other counts, the rates are
:32:25. > :32:30.capped and we don't see the problems. We see lower levels of
:32:30. > :32:33.personal borrowing and illegal lending. You would be OK with
:32:33. > :32:37.capped interest rates? Capped interest rates as long as we can
:32:37. > :32:43.sit down and do to properly, as long as we sit down and it has to
:32:43. > :32:49.be sensible caps. Because the cost to fund payday loans is the costing
:32:49. > :32:54.a lot. 1,000% would be OK, not 500%? That is based on a lon over
:32:54. > :33:02.three months, these are short-term loans. Your APR is 17,000 per cent.
:33:02. > :33:07.It is not an annual loan it is a month loan. (all speak at once) In
:33:07. > :33:13.Japan they have worked to go from a 79% cap, to a 20% total cost cap?
:33:13. > :33:19.We need to sit down and lock at it. We are pushing it, I asked you four
:33:20. > :33:25.months ago to sit down and discuss it. On Twitter you called me niave
:33:25. > :33:29.and ignorant of the industry. accused you of looking a blanket
:33:30. > :33:33.over the industry, and accusing us to be like Wonga, when I put it to
:33:33. > :33:37.you, you said you are like Wonga and I won't sit down with you. We
:33:37. > :33:41.want a cap, limit rollovers. didn't say that, I asked for the
:33:41. > :33:48.data. What I said to all the companies I don't want nice dinners
:33:48. > :33:51.I want date ta. Fantastic you want a cap? Do you want the cap like
:33:51. > :33:54.Japan. Do you want a total cross cap, they have worked with the
:33:54. > :33:57.industry and moved it down to 20%? We need to look at what is best in
:33:57. > :34:02.this country for the people of this country. In terms of some of the
:34:02. > :34:05.other options, should they just be banned from advertising all
:34:05. > :34:08.together, we banned tobacco advertising on TV? I find the
:34:09. > :34:12.puppets and all the adverts as annoying as everybody else, the
:34:12. > :34:15.damage is done by the rates the companies charge. What the OFT
:34:15. > :34:19.report shows today is these companies are pushing people into
:34:19. > :34:22.debt because they make most of their money about the people who
:34:22. > :34:25.repeat borrow and roll over and then the charges start. I have been
:34:25. > :34:31.told your website says, right now, without any paperwork or credit
:34:31. > :34:36.checks you can get a loan, I have just been told that? The without
:34:36. > :34:39.paperwork is correct. Without credit checks, I'm being told
:34:40. > :34:42.exactly that? This is exactly why the Government needs to step in.
:34:42. > :34:45.This industry it is like asking turkeys to organise Christmas.
:34:45. > :34:48.There are people in communities like mine who are really struggling
:34:48. > :34:54.as a result of this. It is inexcusable having seen the
:34:54. > :34:58.evidence today that this Government has failed to back the cap on
:34:58. > :35:02.credit, I'm proud Labour has done? I think the FSA needs to get
:35:02. > :35:06.involved when it is in place to do so. We are pushing for regulation,
:35:06. > :35:11.we want it. We introduce debt management to individuals who
:35:11. > :35:15.default on loans, we want to help them out of debt problems not into
:35:15. > :35:23.it. She's saying the key problem is interest rates, and they have to be
:35:23. > :35:27.capped? It is not just that, all the additional charges, the default
:35:27. > :35:32.charges, the �25 to not pay on time. We are also the only financial
:35:32. > :35:36.institution in the country, anyone who defaults we freeze interest at
:35:36. > :35:41.that point. Most lenders do that. Including Wonga even. Not at the
:35:41. > :35:46.point of default, they don't. If somebody comes to payday, their due
:35:46. > :35:51.date, and we don't recoup the funds then, we freeze the interests.
:35:51. > :35:56.17 though per cent. At the point in the original contract. Thank you
:35:56. > :36:03.very much. 30 years ago Britain sent a task
:36:03. > :36:07.force to liberate the Falklands from Argentina. And Argentina has
:36:07. > :36:11.regularly asked for the return of the la Malin, and Britain has said
:36:11. > :36:15.it is up to the islanders themselves. Just ahead of a
:36:16. > :36:20.referendum, Sue Lloyd-Roberts reports from Buenos Aires about a
:36:20. > :36:30.vote of a couple of thousand islanders, who definitely see
:36:30. > :36:35.themselves as British, is viewed in Argentine na.
:36:35. > :36:45.-- Argentina. This is one of Argentina's favourite rock bands
:36:45. > :36:45.
:36:45. > :36:49.belting out the song they call, April 2nd. The day on which
:36:49. > :36:54.Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands many years ago. It goes
:36:54. > :37:02.down well with the young, many of them not born when the islands were
:37:02. > :37:09.invaded. I met them in a park the next day to ask them why they care?
:37:10. > :37:13.At school, we are taught that Malvenas are Argentinian, and
:37:13. > :37:17.Argentina should claim them. That is our feeling. It is only natural
:37:17. > :37:21.that the whole population will say that if you are taught that way
:37:21. > :37:26.since a little kid. It is a little bit of brainwashing. I have never
:37:26. > :37:32.begin brainwashed about any ideas. I have always -- been brainwash
:37:32. > :37:36.about any ideas. I have always thought the islands were Argentina,
:37:36. > :37:39.heiror kal and geographical, that is why. What about the referendum,
:37:39. > :37:44.is it significant? It is the general will of the people, they
:37:44. > :37:51.are actually electing the way of Government and which Government
:37:51. > :37:57.will represent them. It is absolutely right. What happened in
:37:57. > :38:01.1833, when the English Government arrived to the La Malvenos islands,
:38:01. > :38:07.what happened to the people who lived there, and their self-
:38:07. > :38:12.determination rights. Who is right? At the national library this
:38:12. > :38:16.professor was eager to help. Bringing out an array of maps and
:38:16. > :38:22.documents which show that over some 400 years, the islands had been
:38:22. > :38:27.settled by the Dutch, the French, the Spanish, the Argentinians, and
:38:27. > :38:32.then in the 19th century, Britain staked a permanent claim, and at
:38:32. > :38:42.the time Argentina did not intervene. It is confusing, but the
:38:42. > :38:45.
:38:45. > :38:50.professor put me right. The islands are Argentinian, she said.
:38:50. > :38:54.The claim to the islands didn't matter that much 100 years ago.
:38:54. > :39:01.When Britain was Argentina's most important trading partner.
:39:01. > :39:04.Reminders of the close relationship litter the country. Like the
:39:05. > :39:10.HurlinghamClub, built to kairt the huge British community that once
:39:10. > :39:14.lived in Argentina, and where the Middlesex county cricket club play
:39:14. > :39:24.against an Argentinian side of the You have like every part of the
:39:24. > :39:24.
:39:24. > :39:29.world, people against and for, just mixed feelings.
:39:29. > :39:35.And Britain's place in Argentina? It is difficult to say. I have got
:39:35. > :39:39.both. My father is British, and I'm Argentine born. So I just find it
:39:39. > :39:43.awkward. Everyone here want to draw a
:39:43. > :39:50.distinction between people and politics. We have no problem with
:39:51. > :39:54.the British people. We all study English at schools here. I love the
:39:54. > :40:00.Rolling Stones, I love football, the Beatle, many things to love
:40:00. > :40:05.from England. If -- Beatles, many things to love from England. If I
:40:05. > :40:10.were to feel angry about somebody, I would feel angry about Margaret
:40:10. > :40:16.Thatcher on the English side, but also the leaders on the Argentinian
:40:16. > :40:20.side, both sides. The over 600 Argentinian war dead
:40:20. > :40:29.are remembered in Buenos Aires every day.
:40:29. > :40:33.One thing that everyone can agree on is a general -- General Gaultier
:40:33. > :40:38.decision to invade the Falkland, was to gain popular support for a
:40:38. > :40:43.military -- Tateorship, which by the 1980s was morally and
:40:43. > :40:48.economically bankrupt. It didn't -- dictatorship which by the 1980s was
:40:48. > :40:52.morally and economically bankrupt, it fell soon after. The Argentinian
:40:52. > :41:00.economy is in trouble again. The sight of the unemployed collecting
:41:00. > :41:04.rubbish, to sell on to recycling companies is a common one.
:41:04. > :41:08.Strikes are frequent. Here teachers are demanding pay rises to match an
:41:08. > :41:12.inflation rate which they say is nearly 30%.
:41:12. > :41:16.The Government won't give an official figure.
:41:16. > :41:22.Do they believe that this new row with Britain, over the Falkland,
:41:22. > :41:27.could be a deliberate diversionary tactic by the country's President.
:41:27. > :41:35.TRANSLATION: No, I can honestly say no. She has her own policy on the
:41:35. > :41:39.islands, and economic issues are a separate matter in Argentinian life.
:41:39. > :41:41.TRANSLATION: She's always talking about the island, it is an
:41:41. > :41:45.historical thing, whether British or Argentinian, there is no
:41:45. > :41:51.advantage for the working-classes. Nonetheless, the claim is might,
:41:51. > :41:56.the islands are Argentinian. While most would say that the
:41:56. > :42:01.referendum, being organised by the fouk land island Government this
:42:01. > :42:05.weekend is -- Falkland islands Government this weekend is
:42:05. > :42:11.irrelevant, political commentators think differently. The referendum
:42:11. > :42:15.is a very historical issue, there is a they are part in the
:42:15. > :42:19.historical conflict between argentinia and Great Britain. Not
:42:19. > :42:23.only London and Buenos Aires, there is a third actor in the Falkland
:42:23. > :42:28.Islands. That is the political authority of the Falkland Islands.
:42:28. > :42:38.But this is the stuff of editorial writers and the chattering classes.
:42:38. > :42:40.And doesn't interest the President. A few days ago, President Cristina
:42:40. > :42:45.Fernandez De Kirchner, arrived in parliament for her state-of-the-
:42:45. > :42:49.nation speech. And unveiled a flag which Argentinian troops had
:42:49. > :42:59.planted on the Falkland Islands. She then confirmed her claim to the
:42:59. > :43:03.
:43:03. > :43:07.island, and made no mention of the referendum. The President rarely
:43:07. > :43:16.gives interviews. I asked a member of the Government committee for the
:43:16. > :43:22.island, what he thinks about it? TRANSLATION: I want to ask you a
:43:22. > :43:26.question, are those people living on the islands British? What's the
:43:26. > :43:29.point of asking these people if they want to be British, it is like
:43:29. > :43:33.asking an Argentinian if he wants to be Argentinian. They could do
:43:33. > :43:36.without this referendum. There is no point to it, we know what the
:43:36. > :43:40.outcome will be. Do you really expect us to believe that it is
:43:40. > :43:44.self-determination that you care about? Not the oil, the military
:43:44. > :43:51.importance of the south Atlantic and the territorial claims on
:43:51. > :43:59.Antarctica? The wealth found in the area surrounding the Falkland puts
:43:59. > :44:02.a new edge on the debate. Only 500 miles away, Argentina could benefit,
:44:02. > :44:06.by providing for the need of oil companies operating here. There
:44:06. > :44:12.were commercial links with the islanders before this present
:44:13. > :44:18.Government refused to deal with an authority they won't recognise.
:44:18. > :44:24.Isn't Argentina therefore in danger of missing out? That is a very
:44:24. > :44:31.intelligent economic logic. This is a political problem. We have a
:44:31. > :44:40.political conflict, and for Argentina the meaning of Malin os
:44:40. > :44:43.is not logical it is political. In a country with a troubled recent
:44:43. > :44:48.past it goes on. This week's referendum will change nothing. The
:44:48. > :44:50.British Government is firm that the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands
:44:51. > :44:55.is non-negotiable, without the agreement of the islanders
:44:55. > :44:59.themselves the here in Argentina, people will continue to maintain
:44:59. > :45:04.that the islands were, are and will be Argentinian.
:45:04. > :45:10.Do you think you will see the islands become Argentinian in your
:45:10. > :45:13.lifetime? No I don't think I will. Not become Argentina. I think it
:45:13. > :45:17.should happen, but I don't think I will see it.
:45:17. > :45:22.Yes, of course, I think they are Argentinian.
:45:22. > :45:28.No, and I don't want that to happen unless the population there
:45:28. > :45:32.actually decided they wanted to be Argentinian. I think that
:45:32. > :45:35.argentinia is taking the -- Argentina is taking the wrong
:45:35. > :45:37.approach, without harassing them, we should show them they have a lot
:45:37. > :45:41.of education and economic opportunity here, that is a better
:45:42. > :45:46.way to integrate them. Perhaps in 100 years they will decide they
:45:46. > :45:52.want to be Argentinian as well. Veterans of the war demonstrate
:45:52. > :45:56.daily in Buenos Aires for better pensions and recognition. For
:45:56. > :45:59.everyone in Argentina, the islands provoke painful emotions for which
:45:59. > :46:09.there is no immediate or practical solution.
:46:09. > :46:41.
:46:41. > :46:51.Now a very quick look at the front That's all we have time for tonight,
:46:51. > :46:54.
:46:54. > :46:58.Good evening. Wednesday, certainly brought a lot of cloud and through
:46:58. > :47:02.Thursday, it is going to be another cloudy one. And we are going to see
:47:03. > :47:11.outbreak of rain pushing support addically northwards, across the
:47:11. > :47:14.north of Scotland -- support radically, northwards.
:47:15. > :47:17.This cloud producing some outbreak of patchy rain. Most of it quite
:47:17. > :47:27.light. Won't be surprised if you see the heavier burst here and
:47:27. > :47:28.
:47:28. > :47:32.there. We may see glimmers of brightness from time to time. Grey,
:47:32. > :47:37.cloudy conditions across Wales. Mist, muark and fog up over the
:47:37. > :47:42.hills, and for Northern Ireland, it is a grey story with outbreak of
:47:42. > :47:45.patchy rain. Wet weather for a good start of Scotland as well. Glimmers
:47:45. > :47:49.of brightness here. Across the far north of Scotland and Shetland,
:47:49. > :47:54.here we have a cold, strong Eastleigh wind. As I mentioned most
:47:54. > :47:58.of the rain will be quite light. In any of our northern cities, don't
:47:58. > :48:04.be surprised to see the heavier bursts on Thursday.