07/03/2013

:00:14. > :00:15.More than a third of the tax you More than a third of the tax you

:00:16. > :00:16.More than a third of the tax you pay gets spent on welfare. The

:00:16. > :00:18.pay gets spent on welfare. The pay gets spent on welfare. The

:00:18. > :00:18.polls suggest you don't like that polls suggest you don't like that

:00:18. > :00:20.polls suggest you don't like that one little bit. Ministers aren't

:00:20. > :00:21.one little bit. Ministers aren't one little bit. Ministers aren't

:00:21. > :00:22.one little bit. Ministers aren't the only ones who want people on

:00:22. > :00:23.the only ones who want people on the only ones who want people on

:00:23. > :00:24.the only ones who want people on benefits to stand on their own two

:00:24. > :00:26.benefits to stand on their own two benefits to stand on their own two

:00:26. > :00:27.feet. In this London Borough, they feet. In this London Borough, they

:00:27. > :00:28.feet. In this London Borough, they feet. In this London Borough, they

:00:28. > :00:30.will impose the cap on benefits on will impose the cap on benefits on

:00:30. > :00:31.will impose the cap on benefits on will impose the cap on benefits on

:00:31. > :00:33.families in a few week, whatever it families in a few week, whatever it

:00:33. > :00:33.families in a few week, whatever it families in a few week, whatever it

:00:33. > :00:35.takes. They say if I don't get a takes. They say if I don't get a

:00:35. > :00:36.takes. They say if I don't get a takes. They say if I don't get a

:00:36. > :00:38.job up to that time, they say they job up to that time, they say they

:00:38. > :00:40.job up to that time, they say they job up to that time, they say they

:00:40. > :00:41.will move me into a cheap area like will move me into a cheap area like

:00:41. > :00:46.will move me into a cheap area like Birmingham. What's your view of

:00:46. > :00:47.Birmingham. What's your view of that? I'm not going.

:00:47. > :00:48.that? I'm not going. that? I'm not going.

:00:48. > :00:50.This northern community charity is This northern community charity is

:00:50. > :00:52.This northern community charity is filling the gap. And also finding

:00:52. > :00:52.filling the gap. And also finding filling the gap. And also finding

:00:52. > :00:54.attitudes are changing. If you have attitudes are changing. If you have

:00:54. > :00:56.attitudes are changing. If you have attitudes are changing. If you have

:00:56. > :00:59.been brought up in a workless house, been brought up in a workless house,

:00:59. > :01:01.been brought up in a workless house, your options to then go into

:01:01. > :01:02.your options to then go into your options to then go into

:01:02. > :01:04.employment, especially in an area employment, especially in an area

:01:04. > :01:05.employment, especially in an area like Accrington are very limited.

:01:05. > :01:07.like Accrington are very limited. like Accrington are very limited.

:01:07. > :01:08.The Employment Minister is here. The Employment Minister is here.

:01:08. > :01:09.The Employment Minister is here. Why have our attitudes to welfare

:01:09. > :01:09.Why have our attitudes to welfare Why have our attitudes to welfare

:01:09. > :01:15.Why have our attitudes to welfare changed, and are there more cuts to

:01:15. > :01:16.come? come?

:01:16. > :01:17.come? come?

:01:17. > :01:19.# You say you don't believe in signs

:01:19. > :01:20.signs # From up above

:01:20. > :01:22.# From up above # From up above

:01:22. > :01:24.We have been talking to Bonnie We have been talking to Bonnie

:01:24. > :01:26.We have been talking to Bonnie Tyler, the Welch-born singer who

:01:26. > :01:30.Tyler, the Welch-born singer who Tyler, the Welch-born singer who

:01:30. > :01:34.will carry Britain's hopes into Eurovision.

:01:34. > :01:34.If

:01:34. > :01:35.If you

:01:35. > :01:35.If you try

:01:35. > :01:36.If you try to

:01:36. > :01:36.If you try to squeeze

:01:36. > :01:36.If you try to squeeze Government

:01:36. > :01:37.If you try to squeeze Government spending,

:01:37. > :01:37.spending, the

:01:37. > :01:37.If you try to squeeze Government spending, the Welfare

:01:37. > :01:37.spending, the Welfare Bill

:01:37. > :01:38.If you try to squeeze Government spending, the Welfare Bill is

:01:38. > :01:38.spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty

:01:38. > :01:39.pretty hard

:01:39. > :01:39.spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty hard to

:01:39. > :01:39.pretty hard to overlook.

:01:39. > :01:40.spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty hard to overlook. Welfare

:01:40. > :01:40.pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is

:01:40. > :01:41.pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost

:01:41. > :01:41.almost a

:01:41. > :01:41.pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost a third

:01:41. > :01:42.almost a third of

:01:42. > :01:42.pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost a third of all

:01:42. > :01:42.almost a third of all Government

:01:43. > :01:43.almost a third of all Government spending,

:01:43. > :01:44.spending, more

:01:44. > :01:44.almost a third of all Government spending, more than

:01:44. > :01:44.spending, more than �200

:01:44. > :01:45.almost a third of all Government spending, more than �200 billion

:01:45. > :01:45.spending, more than �200 billion a

:01:45. > :01:45.spending, more than �200 billion a year.

:01:45. > :01:45.year. That

:01:45. > :01:45.spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is

:01:45. > :01:46.year. That is twice

:01:46. > :01:46.spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is twice what

:01:46. > :01:46.year. That is twice what we

:01:46. > :01:47.spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is twice what we spend

:01:47. > :01:47.year. That is twice what we spend on

:01:47. > :01:47.on the

:01:47. > :01:48.year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS,

:01:48. > :01:49.on the NHS, and

:01:49. > :01:49.year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS, and six-times

:01:49. > :01:49.on the NHS, and six-times what

:01:49. > :01:49.year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS, and six-times what the

:01:49. > :01:49.on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry

:01:49. > :01:50.Ministry of

:01:50. > :01:50.on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry of Defence

:01:50. > :01:51.Ministry of Defence gets.

:01:51. > :01:51.on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry of Defence gets. Even

:01:51. > :01:52.Ministry of Defence gets. Even before

:01:52. > :01:52.before the

:01:52. > :01:52.Ministry of Defence gets. Even before the Chancellor

:01:52. > :01:52.before the Chancellor had

:01:52. > :01:52.Ministry of Defence gets. Even before the Chancellor had written

:01:52. > :01:53.before the Chancellor had written his

:01:53. > :01:53.his first

:01:53. > :01:54.before the Chancellor had written his first budget,

:01:54. > :01:54.his first budget, the

:01:54. > :01:54.before the Chancellor had written his first budget, the coalition

:01:54. > :01:55.his first budget, the coalition had

:01:55. > :01:55.his first budget, the coalition had declared

:01:55. > :01:56.declared a

:01:56. > :01:56.his first budget, the coalition had declared a big

:01:56. > :01:56.declared a big chunk

:01:56. > :01:56.his first budget, the coalition had declared a big chunk of

:01:57. > :01:57.declared a big chunk of that

:01:57. > :01:57.his first budget, the coalition had declared a big chunk of that off

:01:57. > :01:58.declared a big chunk of that off limits.

:01:58. > :01:59.limits. Benefits

:01:59. > :01:59.declared a big chunk of that off limits. Benefits solely

:01:59. > :02:00.limits. Benefits solely for

:02:00. > :02:00.declared a big chunk of that off limits. Benefits solely for the

:02:00. > :02:01.limits. Benefits solely for the elderly,

:02:01. > :02:01.elderly, which

:02:01. > :02:02.limits. Benefits solely for the elderly, which accounts

:02:02. > :02:03.elderly, which accounts for

:02:03. > :02:04.limits. Benefits solely for the elderly, which accounts for two

:02:04. > :02:04.elderly, which accounts for two fifths

:02:04. > :02:04.fifths of

:02:04. > :02:04.elderly, which accounts for two fifths of the

:02:04. > :02:05.fifths of the total.

:02:05. > :02:06.elderly, which accounts for two fifths of the total. Universal

:02:06. > :02:06.fifths of the total. Universal benefits

:02:06. > :02:06.benefits like

:02:06. > :02:07.fifths of the total. Universal benefits like the

:02:07. > :02:07.benefits like the Winter

:02:07. > :02:07.fifths of the total. Universal benefits like the Winter Fuel

:02:07. > :02:08.benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance

:02:08. > :02:08.Allowance is

:02:09. > :02:09.benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance is safe.

:02:09. > :02:09.Allowance is safe. And

:02:09. > :02:10.benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance is safe. And the

:02:10. > :02:10.Allowance is safe. And the pensions

:02:10. > :02:10.Allowance is safe. And the pensions going

:02:10. > :02:11.going up

:02:11. > :02:11.Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at

:02:12. > :02:12.going up at least

:02:12. > :02:12.Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at least as

:02:12. > :02:12.going up at least as fast

:02:12. > :02:12.Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at least as fast as

:02:12. > :02:13.going up at least as fast as average

:02:13. > :02:13.average earnings

:02:13. > :02:13.going up at least as fast as average earnings and

:02:13. > :02:13.average earnings and pensions.

:02:13. > :02:14.going up at least as fast as average earnings and pensions. What

:02:14. > :02:14.average earnings and pensions. What is

:02:14. > :02:15.is less,

:02:15. > :02:15.average earnings and pensions. What is less, for

:02:15. > :02:15.is less, for benefits

:02:15. > :02:16.average earnings and pensions. What is less, for benefits going

:02:16. > :02:16.is less, for benefits going to

:02:16. > :02:16.is less, for benefits going to people

:02:16. > :02:16.people below

:02:16. > :02:16.is less, for benefits going to people below pension

:02:16. > :02:17.people below pension age,

:02:17. > :02:17.is less, for benefits going to people below pension age, you

:02:17. > :02:18.people below pension age, you can

:02:18. > :02:18.people below pension age, you can see

:02:18. > :02:18.see why

:02:18. > :02:18.people below pension age, you can see why the

:02:18. > :02:19.see why the Government

:02:19. > :02:19.people below pension age, you can see why the Government is

:02:19. > :02:20.see why the Government is so

:02:20. > :02:20.see why the Government is so focused

:02:20. > :02:21.focused on

:02:21. > :02:21.see why the Government is so focused on housing

:02:21. > :02:23.focused on housing benefit.

:02:23. > :02:23.see why the Government is so focused on housing benefit. In

:02:23. > :02:24.focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12,

:02:24. > :02:24.2011/12, it

:02:24. > :02:24.focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12, it was

:02:24. > :02:25.2011/12, it was the

:02:25. > :02:25.focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12, it was the single

:02:25. > :02:25.2011/12, it was the single most

:02:25. > :02:26.2011/12, it was the single most important

:02:26. > :02:26.important item

:02:26. > :02:26.2011/12, it was the single most important item on

:02:26. > :02:27.important item on the

:02:27. > :02:27.2011/12, it was the single most important item on the benefit

:02:27. > :02:27.important item on the benefit bill,

:02:27. > :02:28.important item on the benefit bill, just

:02:29. > :02:29.just ahead

:02:29. > :02:29.important item on the benefit bill, just ahead of

:02:29. > :02:29.just ahead of Child

:02:29. > :02:29.important item on the benefit bill, just ahead of Child Tax

:02:29. > :02:30.just ahead of Child Tax Credit.

:02:30. > :02:30.just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most

:02:30. > :02:30.Most benefits

:02:30. > :02:30.just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will

:02:30. > :02:31.Most benefits will rise

:02:31. > :02:31.just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will rise by

:02:31. > :02:31.Most benefits will rise by only

:02:31. > :02:31.just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will rise by only 1%

:02:31. > :02:32.Most benefits will rise by only 1% a

:02:32. > :02:32.a year

:02:32. > :02:32.Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over

:02:32. > :02:33.a year over the

:02:33. > :02:33.Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over the next

:02:33. > :02:33.a year over the next three

:02:33. > :02:33.Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over the next three years,

:02:33. > :02:33.a year over the next three years, that

:02:33. > :02:34.that is

:02:34. > :02:34.a year over the next three years, that is slower

:02:34. > :02:34.that is slower than

:02:34. > :02:35.a year over the next three years, that is slower than inflation.

:02:35. > :02:35.that is slower than inflation. In

:02:35. > :02:35.that is slower than inflation. In four

:02:35. > :02:36.four years

:02:36. > :02:36.that is slower than inflation. In four years time,

:02:36. > :02:36.four years time, nearly

:02:36. > :02:36.that is slower than inflation. In four years time, nearly every

:02:36. > :02:37.four years time, nearly every one

:02:37. > :02:37.four years time, nearly every one of

:02:37. > :02:37.of those

:02:37. > :02:38.four years time, nearly every one of those been

:02:38. > :02:38.of those been fits

:02:38. > :02:38.four years time, nearly every one of those been fits will

:02:38. > :02:38.of those been fits will look

:02:38. > :02:38.four years time, nearly every one of those been fits will look very

:02:38. > :02:39.of those been fits will look very different.

:02:39. > :02:39.different. In

:02:39. > :02:40.of those been fits will look very different. In fact,

:02:40. > :02:40.different. In fact, six

:02:40. > :02:41.of those been fits will look very different. In fact, six of

:02:41. > :02:41.different. In fact, six of them,

:02:41. > :02:42.of those been fits will look very different. In fact, six of them, --

:02:42. > :02:42.different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit

:02:42. > :02:42.benefit also

:02:42. > :02:42.different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit also look

:02:42. > :02:43.benefit also look very

:02:43. > :02:43.different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit also look very different.

:02:43. > :02:43.benefit also look very different. In

:02:44. > :02:44.In fact

:02:44. > :02:44.benefit also look very different. In fact six

:02:44. > :02:44.In fact six of

:02:44. > :02:45.benefit also look very different. In fact six of them

:02:45. > :02:45.In fact six of them won't

:02:45. > :02:46.benefit also look very different. In fact six of them won't exist,

:02:46. > :02:46.In fact six of them won't exist, having

:02:46. > :02:47.having been

:02:47. > :02:47.In fact six of them won't exist, having been replaced

:02:47. > :02:47.having been replaced by

:02:47. > :02:47.In fact six of them won't exist, having been replaced by Universal

:02:47. > :02:47.having been replaced by Universal Credit.

:02:47. > :02:48.Credit. That

:02:48. > :02:48.having been replaced by Universal Credit. That comes

:02:48. > :02:48.Credit. That comes in

:02:48. > :02:48.having been replaced by Universal Credit. That comes in later

:02:48. > :02:49.Credit. That comes in later this

:02:49. > :02:49.Credit. That comes in later this year.

:02:49. > :02:49.year. You

:02:49. > :02:49.Credit. That comes in later this year. You take

:02:49. > :02:50.year. You take all

:02:50. > :02:50.Credit. That comes in later this year. You take all of

:02:50. > :02:50.year. You take all of these

:02:50. > :02:51.Credit. That comes in later this year. You take all of these changes

:02:51. > :02:51.year. You take all of these changes together,

:02:51. > :02:51.together, you

:02:51. > :02:51.year. You take all of these changes together, you have

:02:51. > :02:51.together, you have the

:02:52. > :02:52.year. You take all of these changes together, you have the most

:02:52. > :02:52.together, you have the most significant

:02:52. > :02:53.significant reform

:02:53. > :02:53.together, you have the most significant reform of

:02:53. > :02:54.significant reform of the

:02:54. > :02:55.together, you have the most significant reform of the welfare

:02:55. > :02:55.significant reform of the welfare system

:02:55. > :02:55.system since

:02:55. > :02:56.significant reform of the welfare system since 1948.

:02:56. > :02:56.system since 1948. Ministers

:02:56. > :02:56.significant reform of the welfare system since 1948. Ministers would

:02:56. > :02:56.system since 1948. Ministers would say

:02:56. > :02:56.say it

:02:57. > :02:57.system since 1948. Ministers would say it is

:02:57. > :02:57.say it is not

:02:57. > :02:57.system since 1948. Ministers would say it is not only

:02:57. > :02:58.say it is not only being

:02:58. > :02:58.system since 1948. Ministers would say it is not only being driven

:02:58. > :02:58.say it is not only being driven by

:02:58. > :02:58.say it is not only being driven by that

:02:58. > :02:58.that need

:02:58. > :02:59.say it is not only being driven by that need to

:02:59. > :02:59.that need to save

:02:59. > :03:00.say it is not only being driven by that need to save money.

:03:00. > :03:00.that need to save money. They

:03:00. > :03:01.They are

:03:01. > :03:01.that need to save money. They are also

:03:01. > :03:01.They are also responding

:03:01. > :03:02.that need to save money. They are also responding to

:03:02. > :03:02.They are also responding to the

:03:02. > :03:02.They are also responding to the fact

:03:02. > :03:03.fact that

:03:03. > :03:03.They are also responding to the fact that attitudes

:03:03. > :03:03.fact that attitudes towards

:03:03. > :03:03.They are also responding to the fact that attitudes towards welfare

:03:03. > :03:04.fact that attitudes towards welfare and

:03:04. > :03:04.and the

:03:04. > :03:04.fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people

:03:04. > :03:04.and the people who

:03:04. > :03:04.fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people who depend

:03:05. > :03:05.and the people who depend on

:03:05. > :03:05.fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people who depend on it

:03:05. > :03:05.and the people who depend on it seem

:03:05. > :03:06.seem to

:03:06. > :03:06.and the people who depend on it seem to have

:03:06. > :03:07.seem to have hardened.

:03:07. > :03:07.and the people who depend on it seem to have hardened. Ministers

:03:07. > :03:08.seem to have hardened. Ministers talk

:03:08. > :03:09.talk about

:03:09. > :03:09.seem to have hardened. Ministers talk about rewarding

:03:09. > :03:10.talk about rewarding strivers,

:03:10. > :03:11.seem to have hardened. Ministers talk about rewarding strivers, and

:03:11. > :03:11.talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging

:03:11. > :03:12.discouraging skivers,

:03:12. > :03:12.talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging skivers, it

:03:12. > :03:14.discouraging skivers, it strike

:03:14. > :03:14.talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging skivers, it strike as

:03:14. > :03:14.discouraging skivers, it strike as chord.

:03:14. > :03:14.chord. Later

:03:14. > :03:15.discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we

:03:15. > :03:16.chord. Later we will

:03:16. > :03:16.discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we will be

:03:16. > :03:16.chord. Later we will be --

:03:16. > :03:17.discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we will be -- it

:03:17. > :03:17.chord. Later we will be -- it strikes

:03:17. > :03:17.strikes a

:03:17. > :03:18.chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord.

:03:18. > :03:18.strikes a chord. Later

:03:18. > :03:18.chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord. Later we

:03:18. > :03:19.strikes a chord. Later we will

:03:19. > :03:20.chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord. Later we will be

:03:20. > :03:20.strikes a chord. Later we will be discussing

:03:20. > :03:20.discussing whether

:03:20. > :03:22.strikes a chord. Later we will be discussing whether the

:03:22. > :03:22.discussing whether the Government's

:03:22. > :03:23.discussing whether the Government's measures

:03:23. > :03:23.measures are

:03:23. > :03:23.discussing whether the Government's measures are a

:03:23. > :03:24.measures are a coherent

:03:24. > :03:25.discussing whether the Government's measures are a coherent response

:03:25. > :03:25.measures are a coherent response to

:03:25. > :03:25.measures are a coherent response to this.

:03:25. > :03:25.this. We

:03:25. > :03:27.measures are a coherent response to this. We have

:03:27. > :03:27.this. We have been

:03:27. > :03:27.measures are a coherent response to this. We have been to

:03:27. > :03:27.this. We have been to Accrington

:03:27. > :03:27.measures are a coherent response to this. We have been to Accrington to

:03:27. > :03:28.this. We have been to Accrington to test

:03:28. > :03:32.test attitudes.

:03:33. > :03:33.test attitudes. P

:03:33. > :03:33.P and

:03:33. > :03:34.test attitudes. P and down

:03:34. > :03:34.P and down this

:03:34. > :03:34.test attitudes. P and down this street,

:03:34. > :03:34.P and down this street, when

:03:34. > :03:35.test attitudes. P and down this street, when one

:03:35. > :03:35.P and down this street, when one --

:03:35. > :03:35.P and down this street, when one -- up

:03:35. > :03:36.up and

:03:36. > :03:36.P and down this street, when one -- up and down

:03:36. > :03:36.up and down this

:03:36. > :03:37.P and down this street, when one -- up and down this street,

:03:37. > :03:37.up and down this street, when

:03:37. > :03:37.P and down this street, when one -- up and down this street, when one

:03:38. > :03:38.up and down this street, when one person

:03:38. > :03:38.person leaves

:03:38. > :03:39.up and down this street, when one person leaves for

:03:39. > :03:39.person leaves for work,

:03:39. > :03:40.up and down this street, when one person leaves for work, they

:03:40. > :03:40.person leaves for work, they see

:03:40. > :03:41.person leaves for work, they see the

:03:41. > :03:41.the curtains

:03:41. > :03:42.person leaves for work, they see the curtains drawn,

:03:42. > :03:42.the curtains drawn, they

:03:42. > :03:42.person leaves for work, they see the curtains drawn, they think

:03:42. > :03:42.the curtains drawn, they think they

:03:42. > :03:43.the curtains drawn, they think they are

:03:43. > :03:43.are off

:03:43. > :03:43.the curtains drawn, they think they are off to

:03:43. > :03:43.are off to make

:03:43. > :03:44.the curtains drawn, they think they are off to make a

:03:44. > :03:44.are off to make a living

:03:44. > :03:44.the curtains drawn, they think they are off to make a living and

:03:44. > :03:44.are off to make a living and behind

:03:44. > :03:44.are off to make a living and behind the

:03:44. > :03:45.the curtains

:03:45. > :03:45.are off to make a living and behind the curtains someone

:03:45. > :03:45.the curtains someone is

:03:45. > :03:46.are off to make a living and behind the curtains someone is making

:03:46. > :03:46.the curtains someone is making a

:03:46. > :03:47.the curtains someone is making a living

:03:47. > :03:47.living off

:03:47. > :03:47.the curtains someone is making a living off them.

:03:47. > :03:47.living off them. It

:03:47. > :03:48.the curtains someone is making a living off them. It is

:03:48. > :03:48.living off them. It is an

:03:48. > :03:48.the curtains someone is making a living off them. It is an image

:03:48. > :03:48.living off them. It is an image George

:03:48. > :03:49.George Osborne

:03:49. > :03:49.living off them. It is an image George Osborne likes

:03:49. > :03:50.George Osborne likes to

:03:50. > :03:50.living off them. It is an image George Osborne likes to paint.

:03:50. > :03:51.George Osborne likes to paint. Whenever

:03:51. > :03:51.Whenever pollsters

:03:51. > :03:51.George Osborne likes to paint. Whenever pollsters test

:03:51. > :03:52.Whenever pollsters test public

:03:52. > :03:52.Whenever pollsters test public attitudes

:03:52. > :03:53.attitudes to

:03:53. > :03:53.Whenever pollsters test public attitudes to welfare

:03:53. > :03:54.attitudes to welfare cuts,

:03:54. > :03:54.Whenever pollsters test public attitudes to welfare cuts, support

:03:54. > :03:55.attitudes to welfare cuts, support for

:03:55. > :03:55.for them

:03:55. > :03:55.attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is

:03:56. > :03:56.for them is usually

:03:56. > :03:56.attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is usually sky

:03:56. > :03:56.for them is usually sky high.

:03:56. > :03:56.attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is usually sky high. That

:03:57. > :03:57.for them is usually sky high. That is

:03:57. > :03:57.is why

:03:57. > :03:57.for them is usually sky high. That is why the

:03:57. > :03:58.is why the Chancellor

:03:58. > :03:58.for them is usually sky high. That is why the Chancellor mentions

:03:58. > :03:58.is why the Chancellor mentions these

:03:58. > :03:58.these drawn

:03:58. > :03:59.is why the Chancellor mentions these drawn curtains.

:03:59. > :03:59.these drawn curtains. He's

:03:59. > :03:59.is why the Chancellor mentions these drawn curtains. He's trying

:03:59. > :03:59.these drawn curtains. He's trying to

:03:59. > :04:00.to reach

:04:00. > :04:00.these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out

:04:00. > :04:00.to reach out to

:04:00. > :04:00.these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out to many

:04:00. > :04:00.to reach out to many members

:04:00. > :04:01.these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out to many members of

:04:01. > :04:01.to reach out to many members of the

:04:01. > :04:01.to reach out to many members of the public.

:04:01. > :04:01.public. Just

:04:01. > :04:02.to reach out to many members of the public. Just as

:04:02. > :04:02.public. Just as the

:04:02. > :04:02.to reach out to many members of the public. Just as the reasons

:04:02. > :04:03.public. Just as the reasons for

:04:03. > :04:03.to reach out to many members of the public. Just as the reasons for a

:04:03. > :04:03.public. Just as the reasons for a drawn

:04:03. > :04:04.drawn curtain

:04:04. > :04:04.public. Just as the reasons for a drawn curtain could

:04:05. > :04:05.drawn curtain could be

:04:05. > :04:06.public. Just as the reasons for a drawn curtain could be numerous,

:04:06. > :04:06.drawn curtain could be numerous, public

:04:06. > :04:06.public attitudes

:04:06. > :04:06.drawn curtain could be numerous, public attitudes towards

:04:06. > :04:07.public attitudes towards welfare

:04:07. > :04:08.public attitudes towards welfare are

:04:08. > :04:08.are very

:04:08. > :04:10.public attitudes towards welfare are very complex.

:04:10. > :04:11.are very complex. The

:04:11. > :04:12.public attitudes towards welfare are very complex. The pollster

:04:12. > :04:12.are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori

:04:12. > :04:12.Ipsos-Mori gives

:04:12. > :04:12.are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori gives one

:04:12. > :04:13.Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot

:04:13. > :04:13.are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot of

:04:13. > :04:13.Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot of public

:04:13. > :04:23.public opinion..

:04:23. > :04:28.

:04:28. > :04:28.A

:04:28. > :04:29.A snapshot

:04:29. > :04:32.A snapshot can

:04:32. > :04:42.A snapshot can be misleading, what A snapshot can be misleading, what

:04:42. > :04:43.

:04:43. > :04:46.Many more people agreed than Many more people agreed than

:04:46. > :04:47.Many more people agreed than disagreed, that isn't the case.

:04:47. > :04:48.disagreed, that isn't the case. disagreed, that isn't the case.

:04:49. > :04:50.disagreed, that isn't the case. will give a food parcel a couple of

:04:50. > :04:51.will give a food parcel a couple of will give a food parcel a couple of

:04:51. > :04:52.will give a food parcel a couple of days before you get paid. I can do

:04:52. > :04:54.days before you get paid. I can do days before you get paid. I can do

:04:54. > :04:55.bun Friday until you get your bun Friday until you get your

:04:55. > :04:57.bun Friday until you get your benefits. This centre steps in

:04:57. > :04:59.benefits. This centre steps in benefits. This centre steps in

:04:59. > :05:00.where the state retreats. It has where the state retreats. It has

:05:00. > :05:02.where the state retreats. It has done more not less since welfare

:05:02. > :05:03.done more not less since welfare done more not less since welfare

:05:03. > :05:04.cuts have bitten. Years ago the cuts have bitten. Years ago the

:05:04. > :05:06.cuts have bitten. Years ago the people of Accrington would have

:05:06. > :05:06.people of Accrington would have people of Accrington would have

:05:07. > :05:09.people of Accrington would have been busy weaving on one of the

:05:09. > :05:09.been busy weaving on one of the been busy weaving on one of the

:05:09. > :05:12.most critical inventions of the most critical inventions of the

:05:12. > :05:13.Industrial Revolution, the spinning Industrial Revolution, the spinning

:05:13. > :05:15.Industrial Revolution, the spinning Jenny. Now poverty levels are the

:05:15. > :05:16.Jenny. Now poverty levels are the Jenny. Now poverty levels are the

:05:16. > :05:17.highest in the country. The town highest in the country. The town

:05:17. > :05:18.highest in the country. The town has its own system of support.

:05:18. > :05:19.has its own system of support. has its own system of support.

:05:19. > :05:20.has its own system of support. Running the centre, Lucy is at the

:05:20. > :05:22.Running the centre, Lucy is at the interface of those receiving

:05:22. > :05:24.interface of those receiving interface of those receiving

:05:24. > :05:25.benefits and those who might be benefits and those who might be

:05:25. > :05:26.more sceptical. Local communities more sceptical. Local communities

:05:26. > :05:27.are incredibly generous. When are incredibly generous. When

:05:27. > :05:27.are incredibly generous. When are incredibly generous. When

:05:28. > :05:29.people come in and meet some of the people come in and meet some of the

:05:29. > :05:30.people come in and meet some of the people come in and meet some of the

:05:30. > :05:31.people who are going to get the people who are going to get the

:05:31. > :05:32.people who are going to get the help that they have brought, I

:05:32. > :05:34.help that they have brought, I help that they have brought, I

:05:34. > :05:35.think that does help to change think that does help to change

:05:35. > :05:37.think that does help to change people as opinions. I think you

:05:37. > :05:39.people as opinions. I think you people as opinions. I think you

:05:40. > :05:41.realise that people's options are realise that people's options are

:05:41. > :05:41.realise that people's options are realise that people's options are

:05:41. > :05:43.not, they are very Ayalim ited. If not, they are very Ayalim ited. If

:05:43. > :05:44.not, they are very Ayalim ited. If not, they are very Ayalim ited. If

:05:44. > :05:45.you have been brought up in a work you have been brought up in a work

:05:45. > :05:46.you have been brought up in a work you have been brought up in a work

:05:46. > :05:47.-- They are very limited. If you -- They are very limited. If you

:05:47. > :05:48.-- They are very limited. If you have been brought up in the

:05:48. > :05:49.have been brought up in the have been brought up in the

:05:49. > :05:50.have been brought up in the workless house, or been in the care

:05:50. > :05:53.workless house, or been in the care workless house, or been in the care

:05:53. > :05:54.system, your options to then go system, your options to then go

:05:54. > :05:56.system, your options to then go into employment, especially in an

:05:56. > :05:59.into employment, especially in an into employment, especially in an

:05:59. > :06:01.area like Accrington are very area like Accrington are very

:06:01. > :06:02.limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey

:06:02. > :06:03.limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey

:06:03. > :06:05.shows 92% of people value a welfare shows 92% of people value a welfare

:06:05. > :06:07.shows 92% of people value a welfare shows 92% of people value a welfare

:06:07. > :06:10.state to support those in need. The state to support those in need. The

:06:10. > :06:12.state to support those in need. The same pollster s show that in

:06:12. > :06:13.same pollster s show that in same pollster s show that in

:06:13. > :06:13.201019% of people were worried 201019% of people were worried

:06:13. > :06:14.201019% of people were worried Government would do too little to

:06:14. > :06:15.Government would do too little to Government would do too little to

:06:15. > :06:17.Government would do too little to help people. And it had had risen

:06:17. > :06:19.help people. And it had had risen help people. And it had had risen

:06:19. > :06:21.help people. And it had had risen to a third of respondants. John is

:06:21. > :06:22.to a third of respondants. John is to a third of respondants. John is

:06:23. > :06:25.to a third of respondants. John is 56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia

:06:25. > :06:25.56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia 56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia

:06:25. > :06:26.Plath is his absolute favourite. He Plath is his absolute favourite. He

:06:26. > :06:28.Plath is his absolute favourite. He Plath is his absolute favourite. He

:06:28. > :06:28.has never had a job. He did have has never had a job. He did have

:06:29. > :06:29.has never had a job. He did have one when he first left university.

:06:29. > :06:31.one when he first left university. one when he first left university.

:06:31. > :06:31.one when he first left university. He was asked to make one phone call,

:06:31. > :06:35.He was asked to make one phone call, He was asked to make one phone call,

:06:35. > :06:36.He was asked to make one phone call, it took him three days to make it.

:06:37. > :06:37.it took him three days to make it. it took him three days to make it.

:06:37. > :06:40.it took him three days to make it. John never returned to work, he was

:06:40. > :06:41.John never returned to work, he was diagnosed with anxiety and

:06:41. > :06:43.diagnosed with anxiety and eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm

:06:43. > :06:44.eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm

:06:44. > :06:45.eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm is a volunteer buddy to John. You

:06:45. > :06:47.is a volunteer buddy to John. You is a volunteer buddy to John. You

:06:47. > :06:48.build your life up on these build your life up on these

:06:48. > :06:50.build your life up on these benefits doing certain things, your

:06:50. > :06:51.benefits doing certain things, your benefits doing certain things, your

:06:51. > :06:54.bills and things like that, and bills and things like that, and

:06:54. > :06:56.bills and things like that, and bills and things like that, and

:06:56. > :06:57.then if they remove or change that then if they remove or change that

:06:57. > :07:00.then if they remove or change that benefit then all that structure is

:07:00. > :07:01.benefit then all that structure is benefit then all that structure is

:07:01. > :07:02.gone. People like me routine and gone. People like me routine and

:07:02. > :07:03.gone. People like me routine and such are very important. It is

:07:03. > :07:04.such are very important. It is such are very important. It is

:07:04. > :07:05.something that you have been something that you have been

:07:05. > :07:06.something that you have been something that you have been

:07:06. > :07:08.worried about for a while. You can worried about for a while. You can

:07:08. > :07:08.worried about for a while. You can worried about for a while. You can

:07:08. > :07:11.see a broken leg and motor neurone see a broken leg and motor neurone

:07:11. > :07:13.see a broken leg and motor neurone disease, but not a mental illness.

:07:13. > :07:16.disease, but not a mental illness. disease, but not a mental illness.

:07:16. > :07:16.A mental illness is a progressive A mental illness is a progressive

:07:16. > :07:20.A mental illness is a progressive thing, and a different thing every

:07:20. > :07:22.thing, and a different thing every thing, and a different thing every

:07:22. > :07:23.thing, and a different thing every day. How on earth can anybody make

:07:23. > :07:24.day. How on earth can anybody make day. How on earth can anybody make

:07:24. > :07:28.an assessment within 30-minutes, on an assessment within 30-minutes, on

:07:28. > :07:29.one particular day. one particular day.

:07:29. > :07:30.one particular day. one particular day.

:07:30. > :07:31.But even in the face of stories But even in the face of stories

:07:31. > :07:32.But even in the face of stories But even in the face of stories

:07:32. > :07:34.such as John's, as a nation we are such as John's, as a nation we are

:07:34. > :07:35.such as John's, as a nation we are such as John's, as a nation we are

:07:35. > :07:36.very hard. And we have got harder. very hard. And we have got harder.

:07:36. > :07:37.very hard. And we have got harder. very hard. And we have got harder.

:07:37. > :07:39.It is a very profound set of trends It is a very profound set of trends

:07:39. > :07:40.It is a very profound set of trends It is a very profound set of trends

:07:40. > :07:42.we are seeing in terms of hardening we are seeing in terms of hardening

:07:42. > :07:43.attitudes towards welfare and attitudes towards welfare and

:07:43. > :07:44.attitudes towards welfare and welfare benefits. For example many

:07:45. > :07:45.welfare benefits. For example many welfare benefits. For example many

:07:45. > :07:46.more people believe, compared with more people believe, compared with

:07:46. > :07:48.more people believe, compared with more people believe, compared with

:07:48. > :07:49.10 or 20 years ago that benefits 10 or 20 years ago that benefits

:07:49. > :07:50.10 or 20 years ago that benefits are too high, and discourage people

:07:51. > :07:51.are too high, and discourage people are too high, and discourage people

:07:51. > :07:52.from finding work. What is from finding work. What is

:07:52. > :07:54.from finding work. What is interesting is we are certainly not

:07:54. > :07:55.interesting is we are certainly not interesting is we are certainly not

:07:55. > :07:56.seeing a softening of attitudes in seeing a softening of attitudes in

:07:56. > :07:57.seeing a softening of attitudes in the recent recession. In previous

:07:57. > :07:58.the recent recession. In previous the recent recession. In previous

:07:58. > :08:00.recessions we have very much seen recessions we have very much seen

:08:00. > :08:01.the softening of attitudes. the softening of attitudes.

:08:02. > :08:02.the softening of attitudes. And there's been this hardening,

:08:02. > :08:03.And there's been this hardening, And there's been this hardening,

:08:03. > :08:05.despite more and more people having despite more and more people having

:08:05. > :08:06.despite more and more people having been brought into the welfare state

:08:06. > :08:07.been brought into the welfare state been brought into the welfare state

:08:07. > :08:07.through the expansion of tax through the expansion of tax

:08:07. > :08:09.through the expansion of tax credits, and so more and more

:08:09. > :08:09.credits, and so more and more credits, and so more and more

:08:09. > :08:12.credits, and so more and more people are set to lose when the

:08:13. > :08:15.cuts bite. cuts bite.

:08:15. > :08:16.cuts bite. When interviewing 150 families, one

:08:16. > :08:19.When interviewing 150 families, one sociologist found a peculiar

:08:19. > :08:20.sociologist found a peculiar sociologist found a peculiar

:08:20. > :08:21.phenomenon. I was working for phenomenon. I was working for

:08:21. > :08:23.phenomenon. I was working for Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to

:08:23. > :08:24.Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to

:08:24. > :08:25.see which tenants would be affected see which tenants would be affected

:08:25. > :08:26.see which tenants would be affected by welfare reform, and who was

:08:26. > :08:28.by welfare reform, and who was by welfare reform, and who was

:08:28. > :08:29.likely to default on their rent likely to default on their rent

:08:30. > :08:30.likely to default on their rent payments. In the course of the

:08:30. > :08:32.payments. In the course of the payments. In the course of the

:08:32. > :08:33.study we found out what other study we found out what other

:08:33. > :08:34.study we found out what other benefits they were on, and what

:08:35. > :08:35.benefits they were on, and what benefits they were on, and what

:08:35. > :08:36.their awareness was of welfare their awareness was of welfare

:08:36. > :08:37.their awareness was of welfare reform. What really surprised me

:08:37. > :08:38.reform. What really surprised me reform. What really surprised me

:08:38. > :08:40.reform. What really surprised me was the fact that lots of people

:08:40. > :08:42.was the fact that lots of people was the fact that lots of people

:08:42. > :08:43.who were on multiple benefits, they who were on multiple benefits, they

:08:43. > :08:45.were receiving housing benefit, were receiving housing benefit,

:08:45. > :08:47.were receiving housing benefit, council tax benefit, various things,

:08:47. > :08:48.council tax benefit, various things, resented other people receiving

:08:48. > :08:51.resented other people receiving resented other people receiving

:08:51. > :08:52.benefits. They thought that only benefits. They thought that only

:08:52. > :08:54.benefits. They thought that only they should get benefits! When the

:08:54. > :08:55.they should get benefits! When the they should get benefits! When the

:08:56. > :08:56.camp chairman recently produced a camp chairman recently produced a

:08:56. > :09:00.camp chairman recently produced a poster, lambasting those out of

:09:00. > :09:02.poster, lambasting those out of poster, lambasting those out of

:09:02. > :09:03.work as "slobs", he was roundly work as "slobs", he was roundly

:09:03. > :09:04.work as "slobs", he was roundly criticised behind the scenes by

:09:04. > :09:05.criticised behind the scenes by Conservative colleagues, and was

:09:05. > :09:06.Conservative colleagues, and was Conservative colleagues, and was

:09:06. > :09:07.thought to have admitted he thought to have admitted he

:09:07. > :09:07.thought to have admitted he probably went too far. The

:09:07. > :09:08.probably went too far. The Conservatives think they have

:09:08. > :09:09.Conservatives think they have Conservatives think they have

:09:09. > :09:10.public opinion on their side when public opinion on their side when

:09:10. > :09:11.public opinion on their side when public opinion on their side when

:09:11. > :09:13.they are cutting benefits out of a they are cutting benefits out of a

:09:13. > :09:15.they are cutting benefits out of a sense of duety. But that public

:09:15. > :09:16.sense of duety. But that public sense of duety. But that public

:09:16. > :09:17.opinion can -- duty. But that opinion can -- duty. But that

:09:18. > :09:19.opinion can -- duty. But that public opinion can flip very

:09:19. > :09:21.public opinion can flip very public opinion can flip very

:09:21. > :09:24.public opinion can flip very quickly if they get any sign of

:09:24. > :09:25.quickly if they get any sign of quickly if they get any sign of

:09:25. > :09:26.relish. Linda is from Hind Homes, relish. Linda is from Hind Homes,

:09:26. > :09:30.relish. Linda is from Hind Homes, relish. Linda is from Hind Homes,

:09:30. > :09:31.and has come to meet one of the and has come to meet one of the

:09:31. > :09:33.and has come to meet one of the 3,000 tenants, some of whom will

:09:33. > :09:35.3,000 tenants, some of whom will 3,000 tenants, some of whom will

:09:35. > :09:37.lose out with the benefit changes. lose out with the benefit changes.

:09:38. > :09:40.lose out with the benefit changes. The Government has promised a

:09:40. > :09:41.The Government has promised a The Government has promised a

:09:41. > :09:42.hardship fund to help these people. hardship fund to help these people.

:09:42. > :09:43.hardship fund to help these people. hardship fund to help these people.

:09:43. > :09:45.We have heard you will be charged We have heard you will be charged

:09:45. > :09:49.We have heard you will be charged �12 for the extra bedroom. Linda

:09:49. > :09:50.�12 for the extra bedroom. Linda �12 for the extra bedroom. Linda

:09:50. > :09:51.knows public opinion is finely knows public opinion is finely

:09:51. > :09:52.knows public opinion is finely balanced for many reasons. Many

:09:52. > :09:52.balanced for many reasons. Many balanced for many reasons. Many

:09:53. > :09:53.recipients of benefits are in work recipients of benefits are in work

:09:53. > :09:54.recipients of benefits are in work recipients of benefits are in work

:09:54. > :09:55.as well as being out of work. as well as being out of work.

:09:55. > :09:56.as well as being out of work. as well as being out of work.

:09:56. > :09:58.deal with a lot of people who in deal with a lot of people who in

:09:58. > :09:59.deal with a lot of people who in deal with a lot of people who in

:09:59. > :09:59.this area, due to the decline in this area, due to the decline in

:09:59. > :10:01.the manufacturing industry, there the manufacturing industry, there

:10:01. > :10:04.the manufacturing industry, there the manufacturing industry, there

:10:04. > :10:06.is a lot of people working in the is a lot of people working in the

:10:06. > :10:10.is a lot of people working in the retail industry. It is quite low

:10:10. > :10:11.retail industry. It is quite low retail industry. It is quite low

:10:11. > :10:13.incomes, minimum wage. They need incomes, minimum wage. They need

:10:13. > :10:14.incomes, minimum wage. They need help with their rent, they are

:10:14. > :10:15.help with their rent, they are help with their rent, they are

:10:15. > :10:16.still able to claim housing benefit. still able to claim housing benefit.

:10:16. > :10:17.still able to claim housing benefit. still able to claim housing benefit.

:10:17. > :10:18.The bedroom tax will be 14% of the The bedroom tax will be 14% of the

:10:18. > :10:19.The bedroom tax will be 14% of the The bedroom tax will be 14% of the

:10:19. > :10:20.rent, not how much benefit they get. rent, not how much benefit they get.

:10:20. > :10:21.rent, not how much benefit they get. rent, not how much benefit they get.

:10:21. > :10:22.In some cases they will lose all In some cases they will lose all

:10:22. > :10:23.In some cases they will lose all their housing benefit and have to

:10:23. > :10:24.their housing benefit and have to their housing benefit and have to

:10:24. > :10:25.their housing benefit and have to meet all the rent. Which on a low

:10:26. > :10:26.meet all the rent. Which on a low meet all the rent. Which on a low

:10:26. > :10:28.income, they are really going to income, they are really going to

:10:28. > :10:30.income, they are really going to struggle to make ends meet.

:10:30. > :10:32.struggle to make ends meet. struggle to make ends meet.

:10:32. > :10:33.Back at the centre, some solutions Back at the centre, some solutions

:10:33. > :10:33.Back at the centre, some solutions become discernable. John was in

:10:34. > :10:34.become discernable. John was in become discernable. John was in

:10:34. > :10:36.become discernable. John was in work all his adult life, but a year

:10:36. > :10:37.work all his adult life, but a year work all his adult life, but a year

:10:37. > :10:38.work all his adult life, but a year ago he lost his job, he hasn't had

:10:38. > :10:39.ago he lost his job, he hasn't had ago he lost his job, he hasn't had

:10:39. > :10:39.ago he lost his job, he hasn't had one since. He would like welfare to

:10:39. > :10:42.one since. He would like welfare to one since. He would like welfare to

:10:42. > :10:43.one since. He would like welfare to reflect how much you have paid in.

:10:43. > :10:45.reflect how much you have paid in. reflect how much you have paid in.

:10:45. > :10:47.I think personally they should pay I think personally they should pay

:10:47. > :10:48.I think personally they should pay I think personally they should pay

:10:48. > :10:49.someone like me, I'm 59 years old, someone like me, I'm 59 years old,

:10:49. > :10:51.someone like me, I'm 59 years old, someone like me, I'm 59 years old,

:10:51. > :10:52.I have get more money than somebody I have get more money than somebody

:10:52. > :10:53.I have get more money than somebody who has never worked. Because I

:10:53. > :10:54.who has never worked. Because I who has never worked. Because I

:10:54. > :10:55.who has never worked. Because I have paid my tax and insurance all

:10:55. > :10:56.have paid my tax and insurance all have paid my tax and insurance all

:10:56. > :10:57.that time. You have contributed all that time. You have contributed all

:10:57. > :10:58.that time. You have contributed all that time. You have contributed all

:10:58. > :10:59.your life. It is all like those who your life. It is all like those who

:10:59. > :11:00.your life. It is all like those who your life. It is all like those who

:11:00. > :11:01.have up there and seeing what they have up there and seeing what they

:11:01. > :11:02.have up there and seeing what they have up there and seeing what they

:11:02. > :11:04.can do and they try doing it and can do and they try doing it and

:11:04. > :11:06.can do and they try doing it and living on it, they wouldn't manage,

:11:06. > :11:08.living on it, they wouldn't manage, they couldn't survive.

:11:08. > :11:09.they couldn't survive. they couldn't survive.

:11:09. > :11:11.When asked to choose one criterian When asked to choose one criterian

:11:11. > :11:12.When asked to choose one criterian for gauging whether people should

:11:12. > :11:14.for gauging whether people should for gauging whether people should

:11:14. > :11:15.obtain benefit, nearly half of all obtain benefit, nearly half of all

:11:15. > :11:17.obtain benefit, nearly half of all respondants said it should be based

:11:17. > :11:20.respondants said it should be based on contribution, through years

:11:20. > :11:21.on contribution, through years on contribution, through years

:11:21. > :11:22.worked or care provided. 24% worked or care provided. 24%

:11:22. > :11:24.worked or care provided. 24% thought need, 16% thought it should

:11:24. > :11:26.thought need, 16% thought it should thought need, 16% thought it should

:11:27. > :11:28.go to everyone, regardless of need or contribution.

:11:28. > :11:29.or contribution. or contribution.

:11:29. > :11:32.Research shows young people hold Research shows young people hold

:11:32. > :11:33.Research shows young people hold even more sceptical views. In the

:11:33. > :11:34.even more sceptical views. In the even more sceptical views. In the

:11:34. > :11:35.future experts agree there will future experts agree there will

:11:35. > :11:36.future experts agree there will probably need to be a new

:11:36. > :11:37.probably need to be a new probably need to be a new

:11:37. > :11:39.settlement, if support for the settlement, if support for the

:11:40. > :11:41.settlement, if support for the welfare state is to be maintained.

:11:41. > :11:43.welfare state is to be maintained. More immediately ministers are

:11:43. > :11:45.More immediately ministers are More immediately ministers are

:11:45. > :11:46.setting about finding more cuts to setting about finding more cuts to

:11:46. > :11:47.setting about finding more cuts to the welfare budget, safe that

:11:47. > :11:49.the welfare budget, safe that the welfare budget, safe that

:11:49. > :11:50.public opinion is on their side, public opinion is on their side,

:11:50. > :11:52.public opinion is on their side, public opinion is on their side,

:11:52. > :11:54.but if it shifts, it will be a but if it shifts, it will be a

:11:54. > :11:55.fiercesome opponent. The question fiercesome opponent. The question

:11:55. > :11:57.fiercesome opponent. The question is have attitudes changed, or are

:11:57. > :11:58.is have attitudes changed, or are is have attitudes changed, or are

:11:58. > :11:59.politicians catching up with public politicians catching up with public

:12:00. > :12:00.politicians catching up with public opinion. She have James Bartholemew,

:12:00. > :12:02.opinion. She have James Bartholemew, opinion. She have James Bartholemew,

:12:02. > :12:03.author of The Welfare State We're author of The Welfare State We're

:12:03. > :12:03.author of The Welfare State We're In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The

:12:03. > :12:04.In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The

:12:04. > :12:07.Spirit Level: Why Equality is Spirit Level: Why Equality is

:12:07. > :12:07.Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley

:12:07. > :12:08.Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley

:12:08. > :12:09.who was Secretary of State for who was Secretary of State for

:12:09. > :12:10.who was Secretary of State for Social Security in the last

:12:10. > :12:13.Social Security in the last Conservative Government. And Kate

:12:13. > :12:14.Conservative Government. And Kate Conservative Government. And Kate

:12:14. > :12:16.Green, the Labour spokesperson on Green, the Labour spokesperson on

:12:16. > :12:17.Green, the Labour spokesperson on equality, and former head of the

:12:17. > :12:18.equality, and former head of the equality, and former head of the

:12:18. > :12:19.Child Poverty Action Group. Peter Child Poverty Action Group. Peter

:12:19. > :12:19.Child Poverty Action Group. Peter Child Poverty Action Group. Peter

:12:19. > :12:20.Lilley, can I ask you, when you Lilley, can I ask you, when you

:12:20. > :12:22.Lilley, can I ask you, when you were Secretary of State in this

:12:22. > :12:22.were Secretary of State in this were Secretary of State in this

:12:22. > :12:24.area, you were struggling against area, you were struggling against

:12:24. > :12:25.area, you were struggling against opposition to bring in benefit

:12:25. > :12:27.opposition to bring in benefit opposition to bring in benefit

:12:27. > :12:27.changes. Do you think attitudes changes. Do you think attitudes

:12:28. > :12:28.changes. Do you think attitudes changes. Do you think attitudes

:12:28. > :12:29.have changed? I wasn't, I had broad have changed? I wasn't, I had broad

:12:29. > :12:31.have changed? I wasn't, I had broad public support. You don't think

:12:31. > :12:31.public support. You don't think public support. You don't think

:12:31. > :12:32.attitudes have changed? They have attitudes have changed? They have

:12:32. > :12:34.attitudes have changed? They have change, they have hardened a bit.

:12:34. > :12:36.change, they have hardened a bit. change, they have hardened a bit.

:12:36. > :12:38.What has mainly happened is the What has mainly happened is the

:12:38. > :12:40.liberal intelligenceia have caught liberal intelligenceia have caught

:12:40. > :12:42.liberal intelligenceia have caught up with ordinary working people. I

:12:42. > :12:43.up with ordinary working people. I found most people, particularly

:12:43. > :12:52.found most people, particularly found most people, particularly

:12:52. > :12:53.found most people, particularly those on low incomes wanted to see

:12:53. > :12:54.those on low incomes wanted to see those on low incomes wanted to see

:12:54. > :12:56.those on low incomes wanted to see the safety net kept so if they fell

:12:56. > :12:57.the safety net kept so if they fell the safety net kept so if they fell

:12:57. > :12:58.on hard times, but they wanted on hard times, but they wanted

:12:58. > :12:59.on hard times, but they wanted conditions applied that you didn't

:12:59. > :13:02.conditions applied that you didn't conditions applied that you didn't

:13:02. > :13:03.get them until you were genuinely get them until you were genuinely

:13:03. > :13:04.get them until you were genuinely needing them. I had tremendous

:13:04. > :13:06.needing them. I had tremendous needing them. I had tremendous

:13:06. > :13:07.support and not problem at all. support and not problem at all.

:13:07. > :13:07.support and not problem at all. Constantly told I was being brave,

:13:07. > :13:08.Constantly told I was being brave, Constantly told I was being brave,

:13:08. > :13:11.Constantly told I was being brave, it didn't feel like. That when I

:13:11. > :13:11.it didn't feel like. That when I it didn't feel like. That when I

:13:11. > :13:13.walked through the streets of walked through the streets of

:13:13. > :13:14.walked through the streets of Hackney and Islington, when I went

:13:14. > :13:15.Hackney and Islington, when I went Hackney and Islington, when I went

:13:15. > :13:16.Hackney and Islington, when I went there people asked if I was Lilley

:13:16. > :13:17.there people asked if I was Lilley there people asked if I was Lilley

:13:17. > :13:18.there people asked if I was Lilley there people asked if I was Lilley

:13:18. > :13:19.and to keep it up. It is true that and to keep it up. It is true that

:13:19. > :13:21.and to keep it up. It is true that attitudes have been hardening over

:13:21. > :13:22.attitudes have been hardening over attitudes have been hardening over

:13:22. > :13:23.the last two decades, equally the the last two decades, equally the

:13:23. > :13:24.the last two decades, equally the conditions for benefit have been

:13:24. > :13:26.conditions for benefit have been tightened up quite considerably

:13:26. > :13:27.tightened up quite considerably tightened up quite considerably

:13:27. > :13:28.tightened up quite considerably over that period as well. And for

:13:28. > :13:28.over that period as well. And for over that period as well. And for

:13:28. > :13:30.example lone parents are being example lone parents are being

:13:30. > :13:32.example lone parents are being expected work as their children get

:13:32. > :13:33.expected work as their children get expected work as their children get

:13:33. > :13:34.younger and younger, and we have younger and younger, and we have

:13:34. > :13:36.younger and younger, and we have younger and younger, and we have

:13:36. > :13:37.seen new tests for people on the seen new tests for people on the

:13:37. > :13:39.seen new tests for people on the disability benefits who are also

:13:39. > :13:41.disability benefits who are also disability benefits who are also

:13:41. > :13:42.now expected to be assessed as now expected to be assessed as

:13:42. > :13:43.now expected to be assessed as available for work. What is driving

:13:44. > :13:44.available for work. What is driving available for work. What is driving

:13:44. > :13:45.available for work. What is driving it? There is less sympathy even as

:13:45. > :13:47.it? There is less sympathy even as it? There is less sympathy even as

:13:47. > :13:49.the system is getting tougher. A the system is getting tougher. A

:13:49. > :13:50.the system is getting tougher. A the system is getting tougher. A

:13:50. > :13:52.lot of people still think not tough lot of people still think not tough

:13:52. > :13:52.enough? Absolutely, ratchetting up enough? Absolutely, ratchetting up

:13:52. > :13:54.the conditionality doesn't appear the conditionality doesn't appear

:13:54. > :13:55.the conditionality doesn't appear to be shifting public opinion in

:13:55. > :13:56.to be shifting public opinion in to be shifting public opinion in

:13:56. > :13:58.the way that you might expect. the way that you might expect.

:13:58. > :14:00.the way that you might expect. Building trust in the system either.

:14:00. > :14:01.Building trust in the system either. Building trust in the system either.

:14:01. > :14:02.I think that's partly because we I think that's partly because we

:14:02. > :14:03.I think that's partly because we have a rhetoric, a political

:14:03. > :14:05.have a rhetoric, a political have a rhetoric, a political

:14:05. > :14:06.rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media

:14:06. > :14:10.rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media has very, very hostile to benefits

:14:10. > :14:11.has very, very hostile to benefits receipt. That is undoubtedly

:14:11. > :14:12.receipt. That is undoubtedly receipt. That is undoubtedly

:14:12. > :14:13.creating a climate of stigma and creating a climate of stigma and

:14:13. > :14:14.suspicion. People's understanding suspicion. People's understanding

:14:14. > :14:16.suspicion. People's understanding suspicion. People's understanding

:14:16. > :14:18.of the benefits system is as a of the benefits system is as a

:14:18. > :14:18.result very, very misinformed. result very, very misinformed.

:14:18. > :14:20.result very, very misinformed. James Bartholemew, you saw in that

:14:20. > :14:21.James Bartholemew, you saw in that James Bartholemew, you saw in that

:14:21. > :14:22.James Bartholemew, you saw in that piece that you can get a conflict

:14:22. > :14:23.piece that you can get a conflict here, because people are

:14:23. > :14:24.here, because people are here, because people are

:14:24. > :14:25.complaining about benefit, but they complaining about benefit, but they

:14:25. > :14:26.complaining about benefit, but they still want to get their own

:14:26. > :14:27.still want to get their own still want to get their own

:14:27. > :14:28.still want to get their own benefits. How real do you think the

:14:28. > :14:29.benefits. How real do you think the benefits. How real do you think the

:14:29. > :14:31.change in attitude is towards change in attitude is towards

:14:31. > :14:32.change in attitude is towards welfare, when it comes to cutting

:14:32. > :14:33.welfare, when it comes to cutting welfare, when it comes to cutting

:14:33. > :14:34.benefits as the Government is, that benefits as the Government is, that

:14:35. > :14:35.benefits as the Government is, that benefits as the Government is, that

:14:35. > :14:36.actually affect a lot of people? actually affect a lot of people?

:14:37. > :14:38.actually affect a lot of people? actually affect a lot of people?

:14:38. > :14:39.think it is a very real change. And think it is a very real change. And

:14:39. > :14:41.think it is a very real change. And it is like watching something

:14:41. > :14:42.it is like watching something it is like watching something

:14:42. > :14:43.happening in slow motion. People happening in slow motion. People

:14:43. > :14:44.happening in slow motion. People happening in slow motion. People

:14:45. > :14:47.are waking up to the fact that the are waking up to the fact that the

:14:47. > :14:48.welfare state has become welfare state has become

:14:48. > :14:49.welfare state has become dysfuntional. And that we are in

:14:49. > :14:51.dysfuntional. And that we are in dysfuntional. And that we are in

:14:51. > :14:52.situation now where people who the situation now where people who the

:14:52. > :14:54.situation now where people who the Government defiance as being in

:14:54. > :14:57.Government defiance as being in poverty, it is simultaneously

:14:57. > :14:58.poverty, it is simultaneously poverty, it is simultaneously

:14:58. > :14:59.charging them income tax. They can charging them income tax. They can

:14:59. > :15:00.charging them income tax. They can see this is absurd. They are

:15:00. > :15:01.see this is absurd. They are see this is absurd. They are

:15:01. > :15:02.outraged when they are in a outraged when they are in a

:15:02. > :15:03.outraged when they are in a position where they are not much

:15:03. > :15:04.position where they are not much position where they are not much

:15:04. > :15:05.position where they are not much better off than somebody who is not

:15:05. > :15:07.better off than somebody who is not better off than somebody who is not

:15:07. > :15:09.working, and who they believe is working, and who they believe is

:15:09. > :15:10.working, and who they believe is working, and who they believe is

:15:10. > :15:10.not trying to work. It is causing not trying to work. It is causing

:15:10. > :15:12.not trying to work. It is causing not trying to work. It is causing

:15:12. > :15:13.outrage. It doesn't need to be in outrage. It doesn't need to be in

:15:13. > :15:14.outrage. It doesn't need to be in the media because people who are

:15:14. > :15:16.the media because people who are the media because people who are

:15:16. > :15:16.directly seeing it among people who directly seeing it among people who

:15:16. > :15:17.directly seeing it among people who directly seeing it among people who

:15:17. > :15:18.live near them. It is also not much live near them. It is also not much

:15:18. > :15:19.live near them. It is also not much live near them. It is also not much

:15:19. > :15:20.in some of the media. You wouldn't in some of the media. You wouldn't

:15:20. > :15:22.in some of the media. You wouldn't get much about fraud, for example,

:15:22. > :15:24.get much about fraud, for example, get much about fraud, for example,

:15:24. > :15:25.in the Guardian. It depends which in the Guardian. It depends which

:15:25. > :15:25.in the Guardian. It depends which in the Guardian. It depends which

:15:25. > :15:27.media you are reading. The BBC does media you are reading. The BBC does

:15:27. > :15:27.media you are reading. The BBC does media you are reading. The BBC does

:15:28. > :15:28.not cover lots of fraud stories in not cover lots of fraud stories in

:15:28. > :15:29.not cover lots of fraud stories in its news broadcasts, not saying it

:15:30. > :15:30.its news broadcasts, not saying it its news broadcasts, not saying it

:15:30. > :15:33.its news broadcasts, not saying it should. It is not all over the

:15:33. > :15:34.should. It is not all over the should. It is not all over the

:15:34. > :15:35.should. It is not all over the media by any means. Kate Pickett do

:15:35. > :15:36.media by any means. Kate Pickett do media by any means. Kate Pickett do

:15:36. > :15:37.media by any means. Kate Pickett do you think there has been a change?

:15:37. > :15:39.you think there has been a change? you think there has been a change?

:15:39. > :15:41.you think there has been a change? I see it all the time. Although we

:15:41. > :15:42.I see it all the time. Although we I see it all the time. Although we

:15:42. > :15:43.talk about the financial crisis, talk about the financial crisis,

:15:43. > :15:44.talk about the financial crisis, and people blaming the bankers,

:15:44. > :15:46.and people blaming the bankers, and people blaming the bankers,

:15:46. > :15:47.when you get people together, they when you get people together, they

:15:47. > :15:48.when you get people together, they when you get people together, they

:15:48. > :15:49.tend to get off the subject of the tend to get off the subject of the

:15:49. > :15:51.tend to get off the subject of the bankers quickly and start talking

:15:51. > :15:52.bankers quickly and start talking bankers quickly and start talking

:15:52. > :15:53.bankers quickly and start talking about the person next door being on

:15:53. > :15:54.about the person next door being on about the person next door being on

:15:54. > :15:55.benefits who shouldn't be on benefits who shouldn't be on

:15:55. > :15:56.benefits who shouldn't be on benefits and the unfairness of the

:15:56. > :15:57.benefits and the unfairness of the benefits and the unfairness of the

:15:57. > :15:58.benefits and the unfairness of the system. This has come out of the

:15:58. > :15:59.system. This has come out of the system. This has come out of the

:15:59. > :16:00.financial crisis? Kate Green is financial crisis? Kate Green is

:16:00. > :16:01.financial crisis? Kate Green is right, the evidence has shown that

:16:01. > :16:03.right, the evidence has shown that right, the evidence has shown that

:16:03. > :16:04.attitudes have hardened a lot over attitudes have hardened a lot over

:16:04. > :16:05.attitudes have hardened a lot over attitudes have hardened a lot over

:16:05. > :16:06.the past couple of decade. And I the past couple of decade. And I

:16:06. > :16:07.the past couple of decade. And I think she's also right that the

:16:07. > :16:09.think she's also right that the think she's also right that the

:16:09. > :16:11.think she's also right that the media have a role to play there. I

:16:11. > :16:12.media have a role to play there. I media have a role to play there. I

:16:12. > :16:13.would also draw attention to the would also draw attention to the

:16:13. > :16:14.would also draw attention to the rise in inequality over that time

:16:14. > :16:16.rise in inequality over that time rise in inequality over that time

:16:16. > :16:20.period. What happens when the gap period. What happens when the gap

:16:20. > :16:21.period. What happens when the gap between rich and poor gets bigger.

:16:21. > :16:22.between rich and poor gets bigger. between rich and poor gets bigger.

:16:22. > :16:23.between rich and poor gets bigger. What happens is we lose a sense of

:16:23. > :16:25.What happens is we lose a sense of What happens is we lose a sense of

:16:25. > :16:26.social cohesion and trust in each social cohesion and trust in each

:16:26. > :16:27.social cohesion and trust in each other. Attitudes harden, we see a

:16:27. > :16:28.other. Attitudes harden, we see a other. Attitudes harden, we see a

:16:28. > :16:30.lot more downward prejudice. This lot more downward prejudice. This

:16:30. > :16:31.lot more downward prejudice. This lot more downward prejudice. This

:16:31. > :16:32.change in mood is also a mood change in mood is also a mood

:16:32. > :16:34.against redistribution, there against redistribution, there

:16:34. > :16:35.against redistribution, there against redistribution, there

:16:35. > :16:36.doesn't seem to be a reaction to doesn't seem to be a reaction to

:16:36. > :16:37.doesn't seem to be a reaction to that which is people? Surveys show

:16:37. > :16:39.that which is people? Surveys show that which is people? Surveys show

:16:39. > :16:41.year after year that actually year after year that actually

:16:41. > :16:42.year after year that actually people are in favour of

:16:42. > :16:43.people are in favour of people are in favour of

:16:43. > :16:45.redistribution. At the same time redistribution. At the same time

:16:45. > :16:48.redistribution. At the same time they can hold attitudes towards the

:16:48. > :16:50.they can hold attitudes towards the they can hold attitudes towards the

:16:50. > :16:51.poor that are very disheartening. I poor that are very disheartening. I

:16:51. > :16:52.poor that are very disheartening. I think this rising hardened attitude

:16:52. > :16:53.think this rising hardened attitude think this rising hardened attitude

:16:53. > :16:55.is something that the Government is something that the Government

:16:55. > :16:56.is something that the Government should be trying to tackle theself.

:16:56. > :16:57.should be trying to tackle theself. should be trying to tackle theself.

:16:57. > :16:58.should be trying to tackle theself. I think they say they are tackling

:16:58. > :16:59.I think they say they are tackling I think they say they are tackling

:16:59. > :17:00.it by changing the incentives of it by changing the incentives of

:17:00. > :17:00.it by changing the incentives of the system. Do you think people

:17:01. > :17:02.the system. Do you think people the system. Do you think people

:17:02. > :17:04.will change their attitude if it will change their attitude if it

:17:04. > :17:05.will change their attitude if it looks like a fairer system, if

:17:05. > :17:06.looks like a fairer system, if looks like a fairer system, if

:17:06. > :17:08.Universal Credit seems to be fairer, Universal Credit seems to be fairer,

:17:08. > :17:09.Universal Credit seems to be fairer, rewarding work? They are not going

:17:09. > :17:11.rewarding work? They are not going rewarding work? They are not going

:17:11. > :17:12.to change their attitude if the to change their attitude if the

:17:12. > :17:13.to change their attitude if the attitude is wanting benefit to go

:17:13. > :17:14.attitude is wanting benefit to go attitude is wanting benefit to go

:17:14. > :17:16.attitude is wanting benefit to go to those who genuinely need it and

:17:16. > :17:17.to those who genuinely need it and to those who genuinely need it and

:17:17. > :17:18.deserve it and have contributed to deserve it and have contributed to

:17:18. > :17:19.deserve it and have contributed to it, and being reluctant to pay

:17:19. > :17:21.it, and being reluctant to pay it, and being reluctant to pay

:17:21. > :17:24.benefit to those who they feel benefit to those who they feel

:17:24. > :17:25.benefit to those who they feel could work, should work and are

:17:25. > :17:26.could work, should work and are overclaiming or shouldn't be

:17:26. > :17:27.overclaiming or shouldn't be overclaiming or shouldn't be

:17:27. > :17:28.overclaiming or shouldn't be entitled to claim at all. As Kate

:17:28. > :17:29.entitled to claim at all. As Kate entitled to claim at all. As Kate

:17:29. > :17:31.entitled to claim at all. As Kate Green says, it doesn't seem to have

:17:31. > :17:32.Green says, it doesn't seem to have Green says, it doesn't seem to have

:17:32. > :17:33.changed so far, increasing the changed so far, increasing the

:17:33. > :17:34.conditions, making it tougher, conditions, making it tougher,

:17:34. > :17:36.conditions, making it tougher, doesn't seem to have changed?

:17:36. > :17:38.doesn't seem to have changed? shouldn't change those attitudes.

:17:38. > :17:39.shouldn't change those attitudes. shouldn't change those attitudes.

:17:39. > :17:39.The conditions are now responding The conditions are now responding

:17:39. > :17:41.The conditions are now responding to public opinion. The idea that

:17:41. > :17:43.to public opinion. The idea that to public opinion. The idea that

:17:43. > :17:43.public opinion has been moulded by public opinion has been moulded by

:17:43. > :17:45.public opinion has been moulded by public opinion has been moulded by

:17:45. > :17:46.the media, it is always a mistake. the media, it is always a mistake.

:17:46. > :17:47.the media, it is always a mistake. the media, it is always a mistake.

:17:47. > :17:48.I have been guilty of it myself, I have been guilty of it myself,

:17:48. > :17:49.I have been guilty of it myself, I have been guilty of it myself,

:17:49. > :17:50.when we blame the media for public when we blame the media for public

:17:50. > :17:52.when we blame the media for public opinion. Public opinion tends to

:17:52. > :17:54.opinion. Public opinion tends to opinion. Public opinion tends to

:17:54. > :17:55.influence what the media say rather influence what the media say rather

:17:55. > :17:55.influence what the media say rather influence what the media say rather

:17:55. > :17:57.than visa versa. What does it mean than visa versa. What does it mean

:17:57. > :17:58.than visa versa. What does it mean for Labour, though? It is very

:17:58. > :17:59.for Labour, though? It is very for Labour, though? It is very

:17:59. > :18:00.important that we have an informed important that we have an informed

:18:00. > :18:01.important that we have an informed debate about welfare, and we choose

:18:01. > :18:02.debate about welfare, and we choose debate about welfare, and we choose

:18:02. > :18:04.the policies that are actually the policies that are actually

:18:04. > :18:05.the policies that are actually effective in enabling people to be

:18:05. > :18:06.effective in enabling people to be effective in enabling people to be

:18:06. > :18:07.in work, which is, afterall, what in work, which is, afterall, what

:18:07. > :18:08.in work, which is, afterall, what in work, which is, afterall, what

:18:08. > :18:09.we want to see for people who can we want to see for people who can

:18:09. > :18:10.we want to see for people who can we want to see for people who can

:18:11. > :18:12.work. I think that means that we work. I think that means that we

:18:12. > :18:13.work. I think that means that we work. I think that means that we

:18:13. > :18:14.have got to recognise that a very have got to recognise that a very

:18:14. > :18:16.substantial proportion of benefit substantial proportion of benefit

:18:16. > :18:17.substantial proportion of benefit recipients are in paid employment.

:18:17. > :18:18.recipients are in paid employment. recipients are in paid employment.

:18:18. > :18:19.recipients are in paid employment. As was said earlier in the little

:18:19. > :18:20.As was said earlier in the little As was said earlier in the little

:18:20. > :18:20.As was said earlier in the little clip we saw, their wages don't pay

:18:21. > :18:22.clip we saw, their wages don't pay clip we saw, their wages don't pay

:18:22. > :18:24.enough. I think it is also enough. I think it is also

:18:24. > :18:26.enough. I think it is also enough. I think it is also

:18:26. > :18:27.important to note when you say that important to note when you say that

:18:27. > :18:28.important to note when you say that 30% of the public expenditure

:18:28. > :18:29.30% of the public expenditure 30% of the public expenditure

:18:29. > :18:29.budget goes on social security, budget goes on social security,

:18:29. > :18:30.budget goes on social security, that includes the state pension,

:18:31. > :18:32.that includes the state pension, that includes the state pension,

:18:32. > :18:33.that includes the state pension, which is the largest part. I said

:18:33. > :18:36.which is the largest part. I said which is the largest part. I said

:18:36. > :18:37.which is the largest part. I said that too. I said that quite a long

:18:37. > :18:38.that too. I said that quite a long that too. I said that quite a long

:18:38. > :18:39.that too. I said that quite a long time ago. It is part of expenditure

:18:39. > :18:41.time ago. It is part of expenditure time ago. It is part of expenditure

:18:41. > :18:41.and really important. It is and really important. It is

:18:41. > :18:43.and really important. It is important we recognise that the

:18:43. > :18:45.important we recognise that the important we recognise that the

:18:45. > :18:46.amount on strictly out of work amount on strictly out of work

:18:46. > :18:47.amount on strictly out of work benefits is rather small. We can

:18:47. > :18:48.benefits is rather small. We can benefits is rather small. We can

:18:48. > :18:49.benefits is rather small. We can get into this la, you can stay here

:18:49. > :18:50.get into this la, you can stay here get into this la, you can stay here

:18:50. > :18:51.get into this la, you can stay here and we will talk about -- later,

:18:51. > :18:52.and we will talk about -- later, and we will talk about -- later,

:18:52. > :18:55.and we will talk about -- later, you can stay here and we will talk

:18:55. > :18:57.you can stay here and we will talk you can stay here and we will talk

:18:57. > :18:58.about it later. One benefit with about it later. One benefit with

:18:58. > :19:00.about it later. One benefit with the changing negotiation of benefit,

:19:00. > :19:00.the changing negotiation of benefit, the changing negotiation of benefit,

:19:01. > :19:02.is the benefit cap. Today the is the benefit cap. Today the

:19:02. > :19:03.is the benefit cap. Today the Government said it would roll it

:19:03. > :19:04.Government said it would roll it Government said it would roll it

:19:04. > :19:05.out in July and fully implemented out in July and fully implemented

:19:05. > :19:06.out in July and fully implemented out in July and fully implemented

:19:06. > :19:08.in December. No family by then will in December. No family by then will

:19:08. > :19:09.in December. No family by then will in December. No family by then will

:19:09. > :19:10.be able to take more than �26,000 a be able to take more than �26,000 a

:19:10. > :19:12.be able to take more than �26,000 a year in benefits from the state.

:19:12. > :19:13.year in benefits from the state. Four councils will start

:19:13. > :19:14.Four councils will start Four councils will start

:19:14. > :19:15.implementing the cap next month. implementing the cap next month.

:19:15. > :19:16.implementing the cap next month. Already people in some areas with

:19:16. > :19:17.Already people in some areas with Already people in some areas with

:19:17. > :19:18.large families are finding they large families are finding they

:19:18. > :19:19.have to move. have to move.

:19:19. > :19:20.have to move. have to move.

:19:20. > :19:25.We have been to Haringay to find We have been to Haringay to find

:19:25. > :19:26.We have been to Haringay to find out how they are doing.

:19:26. > :19:27.out how they are doing. out how they are doing.

:19:27. > :19:29.Haringay is one of four London Haringay is one of four London

:19:29. > :19:30.Haringay is one of four London Boroughs which next month will

:19:30. > :19:33.Boroughs which next month will Boroughs which next month will

:19:33. > :19:34.Boroughs which next month will begin a trial of the benefit cap.

:19:34. > :19:35.begin a trial of the benefit cap. begin a trial of the benefit cap.

:19:35. > :19:38.One of the Government's policies, One of the Government's policies,

:19:38. > :19:40.One of the Government's policies, designed to help and push people

:19:40. > :19:41.designed to help and push people designed to help and push people

:19:41. > :19:43.off benefits and into work. off benefits and into work.

:19:43. > :19:44.off benefits and into work. off benefits and into work.

:19:44. > :19:46.Families will get no more than �500 Families will get no more than �500

:19:46. > :19:47.Families will get no more than �500 in benefits per week, including all

:19:47. > :19:49.in benefits per week, including all in benefits per week, including all

:19:49. > :19:51.housing costs. A single person can housing costs. A single person can

:19:51. > :19:53.housing costs. A single person can get no more than �350. Haringey

:19:53. > :19:53.get no more than �350. Haringey get no more than �350. Haringey

:19:53. > :19:56.Council said over 1,000 households Council said over 1,000 households

:19:56. > :19:58.could be affected. could be affected.

:19:58. > :20:01.could be affected. could be affected.

:20:01. > :20:02.Some are worried they will have to Some are worried they will have to

:20:02. > :20:03.Some are worried they will have to move. This single mother of four

:20:03. > :20:04.move. This single mother of four move. This single mother of four

:20:04. > :20:05.move. This single mother of four young children told us she had been

:20:05. > :20:06.young children told us she had been young children told us she had been

:20:06. > :20:08.advised that unless she finds work advised that unless she finds work

:20:08. > :20:08.advised that unless she finds work advised that unless she finds work

:20:08. > :20:10.by the 15th of April, her housing by the 15th of April, her housing

:20:10. > :20:11.by the 15th of April, her housing by the 15th of April, her housing

:20:11. > :20:12.benefit will be cut by more than benefit will be cut by more than

:20:12. > :20:13.benefit will be cut by more than half. She has a hairdressing

:20:13. > :20:16.half. She has a hairdressing half. She has a hairdressing

:20:16. > :20:18.qualification, but no job now. qualification, but no job now.

:20:18. > :20:19.qualification, but no job now. qualification, but no job now.

:20:19. > :20:20.They say now to find work, but I'm They say now to find work, but I'm

:20:20. > :20:21.They say now to find work, but I'm They say now to find work, but I'm

:20:22. > :20:23.searching for work for a long time. searching for work for a long time.

:20:23. > :20:24.searching for work for a long time. searching for work for a long time.

:20:25. > :20:28.But I couldn't get the job. I don't But I couldn't get the job. I don't

:20:28. > :20:29.But I couldn't get the job. I don't like to live without work. She's

:20:29. > :20:29.like to live without work. She's like to live without work. She's

:20:29. > :20:30.like to live without work. She's been on a job seekers course, and

:20:30. > :20:32.been on a job seekers course, and been on a job seekers course, and

:20:32. > :20:34.been on a job seekers course, and she has had help rewriting her CV.

:20:34. > :20:35.she has had help rewriting her CV. she has had help rewriting her CV.

:20:35. > :20:35.she has had help rewriting her CV. She went to talk to the council,

:20:35. > :20:36.She went to talk to the council, She went to talk to the council,

:20:36. > :20:38.they gave her financial advice, they gave her financial advice,

:20:38. > :20:40.they gave her financial advice, they also suggested she could move

:20:40. > :20:44.they also suggested she could move they also suggested she could move

:20:44. > :20:45.to another city, several locations to another city, several locations

:20:45. > :20:46.to another city, several locations to another city, several locations

:20:46. > :20:47.were mentioned. They say if I don't were mentioned. They say if I don't

:20:47. > :20:49.were mentioned. They say if I don't were mentioned. They say if I don't

:20:49. > :20:50.get job by that time, they say they get job by that time, they say they

:20:50. > :20:52.get job by that time, they say they get job by that time, they say they

:20:52. > :20:53.are going to move me into a cheap are going to move me into a cheap

:20:53. > :20:56.are going to move me into a cheap area like Birmingham. And what's

:20:56. > :20:59.area like Birmingham. And what's area like Birmingham. And what's

:20:59. > :21:01.area like Birmingham. And what's your view of that? I am not going,

:21:01. > :21:05.your view of that? I am not going, your view of that? I am not going,

:21:05. > :21:10.because my children they love the because my children they love the

:21:10. > :21:11.because my children they love the school. I don't have anyone there.

:21:11. > :21:12.school. I don't have anyone there. school. I don't have anyone there.

:21:12. > :21:13.Supporter -- supporters of the cap Supporter -- supporters of the cap

:21:13. > :21:14.Supporter -- supporters of the cap say it shouldn't mean people on

:21:14. > :21:14.say it shouldn't mean people on say it shouldn't mean people on

:21:15. > :21:15.say it shouldn't mean people on benefits should have to move to the

:21:16. > :21:16.benefits should have to move to the benefits should have to move to the

:21:16. > :21:18.cheapest areas, but they should be cheapest areas, but they should be

:21:18. > :21:19.cheapest areas, but they should be flexible when it comes to work.

:21:19. > :21:20.flexible when it comes to work. flexible when it comes to work.

:21:20. > :21:20.flexible when it comes to work. flexible when it comes to work.

:21:20. > :21:21.There is a debate to be had, and we There is a debate to be had, and we

:21:21. > :21:23.There is a debate to be had, and we can have it sensibly about whether

:21:23. > :21:23.can have it sensibly about whether can have it sensibly about whether

:21:23. > :21:24.can have it sensibly about whether we should expect people who are on

:21:25. > :21:25.we should expect people who are on we should expect people who are on

:21:25. > :21:26.we should expect people who are on welfare to move if they can have

:21:26. > :21:28.welfare to move if they can have welfare to move if they can have

:21:28. > :21:28.other opportunities to work. A lot other opportunities to work. A lot

:21:28. > :21:29.other opportunities to work. A lot of people don't understand why you

:21:29. > :21:31.of people don't understand why you of people don't understand why you

:21:31. > :21:32.of people don't understand why you have to be either very well off, or

:21:32. > :21:32.have to be either very well off, or have to be either very well off, or

:21:33. > :21:34.have to be either very well off, or very poor to live in certain parts

:21:34. > :21:36.very poor to live in certain parts very poor to live in certain parts

:21:36. > :21:37.of particularly London. I think the of particularly London. I think the

:21:37. > :21:39.of particularly London. I think the average working family, perhaps not

:21:39. > :21:40.average working family, perhaps not average working family, perhaps not

:21:40. > :21:44.average working family, perhaps not on welfare looks at some people on

:21:44. > :21:45.on welfare looks at some people on on welfare looks at some people on

:21:45. > :21:46.welfare and thinks why can't -- welfare and thinks why can't --

:21:46. > :21:47.welfare and thinks why can't -- welfare and thinks why can't --

:21:47. > :21:47.can't I live in those areas. There can't I live in those areas. There

:21:47. > :21:48.can't I live in those areas. There can't I live in those areas. There

:21:48. > :21:49.is a debate to be had about whether is a debate to be had about whether

:21:49. > :21:50.is a debate to be had about whether is a debate to be had about whether

:21:50. > :21:51.we can move people around, if it we can move people around, if it

:21:51. > :21:51.we can move people around, if it we can move people around, if it

:21:51. > :21:54.gives them a better chance to get gives them a better chance to get

:21:54. > :21:55.gives them a better chance to get on the work ladder. The benefits

:21:55. > :21:57.on the work ladder. The benefits on the work ladder. The benefits

:21:57. > :21:58.on the work ladder. The benefits cap is one a number of welfare

:21:58. > :22:00.cap is one a number of welfare cap is one a number of welfare

:22:00. > :22:03.changes brought in this year. The changes brought in this year. The

:22:03. > :22:04.changes brought in this year. The changes brought in this year. The

:22:04. > :22:06.idea is to pilot across four London idea is to pilot across four London

:22:06. > :22:08.idea is to pilot across four London borrowings across to April, and

:22:08. > :22:09.borrowings across to April, and borrowings across to April, and

:22:09. > :22:10.then -- boroughs across to April then -- boroughs across to April

:22:10. > :22:12.then -- boroughs across to April then -- boroughs across to April

:22:12. > :22:12.and then out over the rest of the and then out over the rest of the

:22:12. > :22:14.and then out over the rest of the capital. The four local authorities

:22:14. > :22:15.capital. The four local authorities capital. The four local authorities

:22:15. > :22:17.involved say many thousands of involved say many thousands of

:22:17. > :22:18.households could be affected. households could be affected.

:22:18. > :22:19.households could be affected. Haringay Council told us people are

:22:19. > :22:20.Haringay Council told us people are Haringay Council told us people are

:22:20. > :22:22.being advised they could move. But being advised they could move. But

:22:22. > :22:22.being advised they could move. But being advised they could move. But

:22:23. > :22:24.during the six month of the pilot, during the six month of the pilot,

:22:24. > :22:26.during the six month of the pilot, no-one would have to go against

:22:26. > :22:26.no-one would have to go against no-one would have to go against

:22:26. > :22:29.their will. That might change when their will. That might change when

:22:29. > :22:31.their will. That might change when the policy is extended nationwide.

:22:31. > :22:32.the policy is extended nationwide. the policy is extended nationwide.

:22:32. > :22:33.the policy is extended nationwide. What we have to have is an honest

:22:33. > :22:34.What we have to have is an honest What we have to have is an honest

:22:34. > :22:36.conversation with people. I don't conversation with people. I don't

:22:36. > :22:38.conversation with people. I don't conversation with people. I don't

:22:38. > :22:39.think people would be very happy if think people would be very happy if

:22:39. > :22:40.think people would be very happy if we didn't explore with them the

:22:40. > :22:41.we didn't explore with them the we didn't explore with them the

:22:41. > :22:43.we didn't explore with them the need that they may need to move in

:22:43. > :22:44.need that they may need to move in need that they may need to move in

:22:44. > :22:46.the long-term. Because if this the long-term. Because if this

:22:46. > :22:47.the long-term. Because if this policy doesn't change, if the

:22:47. > :22:49.policy doesn't change, if the policy doesn't change, if the

:22:49. > :22:50.housing benefit cap is rolled out housing benefit cap is rolled out

:22:50. > :22:51.housing benefit cap is rolled out nationally, then people will be in

:22:51. > :22:53.nationally, then people will be in nationally, then people will be in

:22:53. > :22:55.a situation where over time their a situation where over time their

:22:55. > :22:56.a situation where over time their housing costs are going to remain

:22:56. > :22:57.housing costs are going to remain housing costs are going to remain

:22:57. > :22:59.high, while their housing benefit high, while their housing benefit

:22:59. > :23:00.high, while their housing benefit is much reduced. That's an

:23:00. > :23:00.is much reduced. That's an is much reduced. That's an

:23:00. > :23:01.unsustainable situation, it is not unsustainable situation, it is not

:23:01. > :23:02.unsustainable situation, it is not something that councils can pick up.

:23:02. > :23:03.something that councils can pick up. something that councils can pick up.

:23:03. > :23:04.something that councils can pick up. If I look at my own authority, we

:23:04. > :23:05.If I look at my own authority, we If I look at my own authority, we

:23:05. > :23:07.If I look at my own authority, we are looking at a �7 million bill,

:23:07. > :23:08.are looking at a �7 million bill, are looking at a �7 million bill,

:23:08. > :23:10.are looking at a �7 million bill, were we to pick up the housing

:23:10. > :23:11.were we to pick up the housing benefit shortfall that these

:23:11. > :23:12.benefit shortfall that these benefit shortfall that these

:23:12. > :23:13.families in my borough will be facing.

:23:13. > :23:14.facing. facing.

:23:14. > :23:15.facing. But you are going to have to meet

:23:15. > :23:16.But you are going to have to meet But you are going to have to meet

:23:16. > :23:17.But you are going to have to meet that bill over the next six month

:23:17. > :23:18.that bill over the next six month that bill over the next six month

:23:18. > :23:18.that bill over the next six month then? In the next six months, in

:23:18. > :23:19.then? In the next six months, in then? In the next six months, in

:23:19. > :23:20.the short-term, I expect that will the short-term, I expect that will

:23:20. > :23:22.the short-term, I expect that will the short-term, I expect that will

:23:22. > :23:22.be the case for many of those be the case for many of those

:23:22. > :23:27.be the case for many of those properties and many of those

:23:28. > :23:29.household, yes. household, yes.

:23:29. > :23:30.household, yes. household, yes.

:23:30. > :23:31.household, yes. The benefit cap is one of a raft of

:23:31. > :23:32.The benefit cap is one of a raft of The benefit cap is one of a raft of

:23:32. > :23:34.welfare changes that come in this welfare changes that come in this

:23:34. > :23:34.welfare changes that come in this year. The Government has said it

:23:34. > :23:35.year. The Government has said it year. The Government has said it

:23:35. > :23:37.year. The Government has said it want there to be a cultural shift

:23:37. > :23:39.want there to be a cultural shift want there to be a cultural shift

:23:39. > :23:41.want there to be a cultural shift when it comes to welfare. And it

:23:41. > :23:42.when it comes to welfare. And it when it comes to welfare. And it

:23:42. > :23:43.promised to save �18 billion from promised to save �18 billion from

:23:43. > :23:45.promised to save �18 billion from the benefits bill by the next

:23:45. > :23:46.the benefits bill by the next the benefits bill by the next

:23:46. > :23:47.election. The impact on individuals election. The impact on individuals

:23:47. > :23:49.election. The impact on individuals election. The impact on individuals

:23:49. > :23:51.and families has yet to be seen. and families has yet to be seen.

:23:51. > :23:51.and families has yet to be seen. and families has yet to be seen.

:23:51. > :23:52.and families has yet to be seen. Here is a quick look at some of the

:23:52. > :23:53.Here is a quick look at some of the Here is a quick look at some of the

:23:53. > :23:55.other specific measures that will other specific measures that will

:23:55. > :23:55.other specific measures that will other specific measures that will

:23:55. > :23:59.start to come in this year, also start to come in this year, also

:23:59. > :24:00.from Sanchia Berg. from Sanchia Berg.

:24:00. > :24:02.from Sanchia Berg. From April a range of welfare

:24:02. > :24:04.From April a range of welfare From April a range of welfare

:24:04. > :24:05.changes will start to take effect. changes will start to take effect.

:24:05. > :24:06.changes will start to take effect. Pilots for Universal Credit will

:24:06. > :24:08.Pilots for Universal Credit will Pilots for Universal Credit will

:24:08. > :24:09.begin, it will be extended across begin, it will be extended across

:24:09. > :24:10.begin, it will be extended across begin, it will be extended across

:24:10. > :24:11.the country in October. This is the the country in October. This is the

:24:11. > :24:12.the country in October. This is the core policy, intended to move

:24:12. > :24:14.core policy, intended to move core policy, intended to move

:24:14. > :24:15.people off welfare and into work. people off welfare and into work.

:24:15. > :24:17.people off welfare and into work. It brings together six different

:24:17. > :24:18.It brings together six different It brings together six different

:24:18. > :24:20.It brings together six different benefits that are paid to people of

:24:20. > :24:22.benefits that are paid to people of benefits that are paid to people of

:24:22. > :24:23.working age employed or not. working age employed or not.

:24:23. > :24:26.Jobseeker's allowance, Employment Jobseeker's allowance, Employment

:24:26. > :24:26.and Support Allowance, income and Support Allowance, income

:24:27. > :24:28.and Support Allowance, income support, Child Tax Credit, Working

:24:28. > :24:32.support, Child Tax Credit, Working support, Child Tax Credit, Working

:24:32. > :24:33.Tax Credit, and housing benefit. Tax Credit, and housing benefit.

:24:33. > :24:33.Tax Credit, and housing benefit. Tax Credit, and housing benefit.

:24:33. > :24:35.The idea is that you should always The idea is that you should always

:24:35. > :24:37.The idea is that you should always be better off working than on

:24:37. > :24:38.be better off working than on be better off working than on

:24:38. > :24:40.benefits. When people start work benefits. When people start work

:24:40. > :24:41.benefits. When people start work now their benefits fall sharply, so

:24:41. > :24:41.now their benefits fall sharply, so now their benefits fall sharply, so

:24:41. > :24:42.now their benefits fall sharply, so many people can find they work hard

:24:42. > :24:44.many people can find they work hard many people can find they work hard

:24:44. > :24:46.many people can find they work hard but they are not much better off.

:24:46. > :24:47.but they are not much better off. but they are not much better off.

:24:47. > :24:48.With Universal Credit, the fall With Universal Credit, the fall

:24:48. > :24:49.With Universal Credit, the fall will be more gradual. People will

:24:49. > :24:51.will be more gradual. People will will be more gradual. People will

:24:51. > :24:52.have more money, more of an have more money, more of an

:24:52. > :24:54.have more money, more of an have more money, more of an

:24:54. > :24:58.incentive to work, or to work more hours.

:24:58. > :24:58.hours. hours.

:24:58. > :25:00.In April too Disability Living In April too Disability Living

:25:00. > :25:02.In April too Disability Living Allowance will be replaced, for new

:25:02. > :25:05.Allowance will be replaced, for new Allowance will be replaced, for new

:25:05. > :25:07.claimants, it with the Personal claimants, it with the Personal

:25:07. > :25:09.claimants, it with the Personal Independent Payment, and the under-

:25:09. > :25:11.Independent Payment, and the under- Independent Payment, and the under-

:25:12. > :25:13.occupation penalty will come in too. occupation penalty will come in too.

:25:13. > :25:14.occupation penalty will come in too. Nicknamed "the bedroom tax", it

:25:14. > :25:15.Nicknamed "the bedroom tax", it Nicknamed "the bedroom tax", it

:25:16. > :25:17.means if tenants have spare rooms, means if tenants have spare rooms,

:25:17. > :25:18.means if tenants have spare rooms, that benefit will be cut. Council

:25:18. > :25:18.that benefit will be cut. Council that benefit will be cut. Council

:25:19. > :25:20.tax benefit will be replaced, local tax benefit will be replaced, local

:25:20. > :25:21.tax benefit will be replaced, local authorities will be given a grant

:25:21. > :25:24.authorities will be given a grant authorities will be given a grant

:25:24. > :25:25.instead. They have to organise and instead. They have to organise and

:25:25. > :25:27.administer this benefit themselves. administer this benefit themselves.

:25:27. > :25:29.While Universal Credit simplifies While Universal Credit simplifies

:25:29. > :25:33.While Universal Credit simplifies and centralises welfare, this could

:25:33. > :25:34.complicate it. complicate it.

:25:34. > :25:35.complicate it. complicate it.

:25:35. > :25:36.Earlier I did speak to the Minister Earlier I did speak to the Minister

:25:36. > :25:37.Earlier I did speak to the Minister for Employment Mark Hoban. I asked

:25:37. > :25:38.for Employment Mark Hoban. I asked for Employment Mark Hoban. I asked

:25:38. > :25:39.for Employment Mark Hoban. I asked him to imagine there was no budget

:25:39. > :25:40.him to imagine there was no budget him to imagine there was no budget

:25:40. > :25:41.deficit, would the Government still deficit, would the Government still

:25:41. > :25:42.deficit, would the Government still deficit, would the Government still

:25:42. > :25:43.be going ahead with all the welfare be going ahead with all the welfare

:25:43. > :25:44.be going ahead with all the welfare be going ahead with all the welfare

:25:44. > :25:45.changes that are now in train? changes that are now in train?

:25:45. > :25:46.changes that are now in train? think the mistake that the previous

:25:46. > :25:48.think the mistake that the previous think the mistake that the previous

:25:48. > :25:49.Government made was not to reform Government made was not to reform

:25:49. > :25:50.Government made was not to reform benefits. We saw ballooning benefit

:25:50. > :25:51.benefits. We saw ballooning benefit benefits. We saw ballooning benefit

:25:51. > :25:53.benefits. We saw ballooning benefit bills, but no changes in place to

:25:53. > :25:54.bills, but no changes in place to bills, but no changes in place to

:25:54. > :25:56.bills, but no changes in place to tackle that. Of course now we have

:25:56. > :25:58.tackle that. Of course now we have difficult times then difficult

:25:58. > :26:01.difficult times then difficult difficult times then difficult

:26:01. > :26:02.actions need to be taken and actions need to be taken and

:26:02. > :26:03.difficult measures produced. But difficult measures produced. But

:26:03. > :26:03.difficult measures produced. But Universal Credit will help people

:26:03. > :26:06.Universal Credit will help people Universal Credit will help people

:26:06. > :26:07.Universal Credit will help people get into work, and make it a no-

:26:07. > :26:08.get into work, and make it a no- get into work, and make it a no-

:26:08. > :26:09.brainer for people to work rather brainer for people to work rather

:26:09. > :26:10.brainer for people to work rather than not work, and increasing their

:26:10. > :26:11.than not work, and increasing their than not work, and increasing their

:26:11. > :26:13.than not work, and increasing their hours to work more to earn more

:26:13. > :26:13.hours to work more to earn more hours to work more to earn more

:26:13. > :26:14.hours to work more to earn more rather than less. It is a universal

:26:14. > :26:16.rather than less. It is a universal rather than less. It is a universal

:26:16. > :26:17.reform to not just tackle the reform to not just tackle the

:26:17. > :26:18.reform to not just tackle the deficit, but to support aspiration,

:26:18. > :26:19.deficit, but to support aspiration, deficit, but to support aspiration,

:26:19. > :26:19.get people into work and ensure get people into work and ensure

:26:19. > :26:22.get people into work and ensure people feel they can play their

:26:22. > :26:23.people feel they can play their people feel they can play their

:26:23. > :26:23.full role in society. Rewarding full role in society. Rewarding

:26:23. > :26:25.full role in society. Rewarding work, but actually penalising a lot

:26:25. > :26:26.work, but actually penalising a lot work, but actually penalising a lot

:26:26. > :26:29.work, but actually penalising a lot of people in work with a real cut

:26:29. > :26:31.of people in work with a real cut of people in work with a real cut

:26:31. > :26:31.in working-age benefits. There will in working-age benefits. There will

:26:31. > :26:32.in working-age benefits. There will be nearly three-times more people

:26:32. > :26:33.be nearly three-times more people be nearly three-times more people

:26:33. > :26:34.be nearly three-times more people affected by the change to the up-

:26:34. > :26:34.affected by the change to the up- affected by the change to the up-

:26:35. > :26:35.affected by the change to the up- rating of benefit that is are in

:26:35. > :26:36.rating of benefit that is are in rating of benefit that is are in

:26:36. > :26:37.rating of benefit that is are in work than out of work? You can't

:26:37. > :26:38.work than out of work? You can't work than out of work? You can't

:26:38. > :26:39.just look at the benefits in just look at the benefits in

:26:39. > :26:40.just look at the benefits in just look at the benefits in

:26:40. > :26:41.isolation, you have to look at the isolation, you have to look at the

:26:41. > :26:43.isolation, you have to look at the tax changes as well. 24 million

:26:43. > :26:44.tax changes as well. 24 million tax changes as well. 24 million

:26:44. > :26:44.people pay less tax as a people pay less tax as a

:26:44. > :26:45.people pay less tax as a consequence of the increase in

:26:45. > :26:46.consequence of the increase in consequence of the increase in

:26:46. > :26:48.personal allowance. I don't think personal allowance. I don't think

:26:48. > :26:49.personal allowance. I don't think you lock at benefits in isolation,

:26:49. > :26:50.you lock at benefits in isolation, you lock at benefits in isolation,

:26:50. > :26:51.but changes taking elsewhere in the but changes taking elsewhere in the

:26:52. > :26:52.but changes taking elsewhere in the but changes taking elsewhere in the

:26:52. > :26:53.tax system too. It is a strong tax system too. It is a strong

:26:53. > :26:54.tax system too. It is a strong message. We want to incentivise

:26:54. > :26:55.message. We want to incentivise message. We want to incentivise

:26:55. > :26:56.people to work, and encourage more people to work, and encourage more

:26:56. > :26:57.people to work, and encourage more people into work rather than

:26:57. > :26:58.people into work rather than people into work rather than

:26:58. > :26:59.staying on benefits for life. staying on benefits for life.

:26:59. > :27:00.staying on benefits for life. are talking about attitudes a lot

:27:00. > :27:01.are talking about attitudes a lot are talking about attitudes a lot

:27:01. > :27:02.are talking about attitudes a lot in this programme. Do you think you

:27:02. > :27:03.in this programme. Do you think you in this programme. Do you think you

:27:03. > :27:05.in this programme. Do you think you have the public behind you in these

:27:05. > :27:06.have the public behind you in these have the public behind you in these

:27:06. > :27:08.have the public behind you in these changes? Yes, I talk to people in

:27:08. > :27:09.changes? Yes, I talk to people in changes? Yes, I talk to people in

:27:09. > :27:10.Jobcentres, I talk to my Jobcentres, I talk to my

:27:10. > :27:11.Jobcentres, I talk to my constituents, in people in business,

:27:11. > :27:12.constituents, in people in business, constituents, in people in business,

:27:12. > :27:14.who recognise there is a failed who recognise there is a failed

:27:14. > :27:16.who recognise there is a failed welfare system, that we do need

:27:16. > :27:17.welfare system, that we do need welfare system, that we do need

:27:17. > :27:17.reforms, and recognise that there reforms, and recognise that there

:27:17. > :27:18.reforms, and recognise that there should be fairness towards those

:27:18. > :27:19.should be fairness towards those should be fairness towards those

:27:19. > :27:20.should be fairness towards those should be fairness towards those

:27:20. > :27:21.who are in work and out of work too. who are in work and out of work too.

:27:21. > :27:23.who are in work and out of work too. who are in work and out of work too.

:27:23. > :27:25.That people who are in work have to That people who are in work have to

:27:25. > :27:26.make difficult decisions about make difficult decisions about

:27:26. > :27:27.make difficult decisions about make difficult decisions about

:27:27. > :27:28.housing, why are those out of work housing, why are those out of work

:27:28. > :27:28.housing, why are those out of work shielded from making the same

:27:29. > :27:29.shielded from making the same shielded from making the same

:27:29. > :27:30.difficult decisions. Do you think difficult decisions. Do you think

:27:30. > :27:31.difficult decisions. Do you think difficult decisions. Do you think

:27:31. > :27:32.difficult decisions. Do you think there is a limit to how far you can

:27:32. > :27:33.there is a limit to how far you can there is a limit to how far you can

:27:33. > :27:34.there is a limit to how far you can go with these kinds of cuts, a

:27:34. > :27:35.go with these kinds of cuts, a go with these kinds of cuts, a

:27:35. > :27:37.go with these kinds of cuts, a point at which you will lose public

:27:37. > :27:38.point at which you will lose public point at which you will lose public

:27:38. > :27:39.point at which you will lose public support? Or do you think there is

:27:39. > :27:40.support? Or do you think there is support? Or do you think there is

:27:40. > :27:41.support? Or do you think there is really no limit on the cuts to

:27:41. > :27:43.really no limit on the cuts to really no limit on the cuts to

:27:43. > :27:44.benefits for some parts of the benefits for some parts of the

:27:44. > :27:45.benefits for some parts of the population? The population has an

:27:45. > :27:45.population? The population has an population? The population has an

:27:46. > :27:47.population? The population has an inate sense of what is fair. They

:27:47. > :27:48.inate sense of what is fair. They inate sense of what is fair. They

:27:48. > :27:49.support the benefit reforms because support the benefit reforms because

:27:49. > :27:49.support the benefit reforms because support the benefit reforms because

:27:49. > :27:50.they see them as fair towards those they see them as fair towards those

:27:50. > :27:51.they see them as fair towards those they see them as fair towards those

:27:51. > :27:52.who are in work and those out of who are in work and those out of

:27:52. > :27:52.who are in work and those out of who are in work and those out of

:27:53. > :27:54.who are in work and those out of work. I think there is a sense of a

:27:54. > :27:55.work. I think there is a sense of a work. I think there is a sense of a

:27:55. > :27:56.work. I think there is a sense of a bargain that we need to get across

:27:56. > :27:57.bargain that we need to get across bargain that we need to get across

:27:57. > :27:59.here. Tax-payers are happy to pay here. Tax-payers are happy to pay

:27:59. > :27:59.here. Tax-payers are happy to pay here. Tax-payers are happy to pay

:27:59. > :28:00.benefits to those who are sick, who benefits to those who are sick, who

:28:00. > :28:01.benefits to those who are sick, who have got caring responsibility, who

:28:01. > :28:02.have got caring responsibility, who have got caring responsibility, who

:28:02. > :28:03.can't work. They expect to pay can't work. They expect to pay

:28:03. > :28:04.can't work. They expect to pay can't work. They expect to pay

:28:04. > :28:05.benefits to people who are out of benefits to people who are out of

:28:05. > :28:05.benefits to people who are out of benefits to people who are out of

:28:05. > :28:06.work, but in return expect them to work, but in return expect them to

:28:06. > :28:07.work, but in return expect them to work, but in return expect them to

:28:07. > :28:08.look for work as well. There is a look for work as well. There is a

:28:08. > :28:10.look for work as well. There is a contract there, I think, and I

:28:10. > :28:11.contract there, I think, and I contract there, I think, and I

:28:11. > :28:12.think our reforms are reinforcing think our reforms are reinforcing

:28:12. > :28:13.think our reforms are reinforcing that contract. You can go further,

:28:13. > :28:14.that contract. You can go further, that contract. You can go further,

:28:14. > :28:16.that contract. You can go further, do you think? You will be looking

:28:16. > :28:16.do you think? You will be looking do you think? You will be looking

:28:16. > :28:17.do you think? You will be looking for more cuts in the summer in the

:28:17. > :28:18.for more cuts in the summer in the for more cuts in the summer in the

:28:18. > :28:19.Spending Review, are there more Spending Review, are there more

:28:19. > :28:20.Spending Review, are there more Spending Review, are there more

:28:20. > :28:21.things you can do? I think there is things you can do? I think there is

:28:22. > :28:23.things you can do? I think there is a continued pressure to ensure we

:28:23. > :28:24.a continued pressure to ensure we a continued pressure to ensure we

:28:24. > :28:25.can spend the benefits wisely, that can spend the benefits wisely, that

:28:25. > :28:26.can spend the benefits wisely, that can spend the benefits wisely, that

:28:26. > :28:27.we look at ways to sharpen work we look at ways to sharpen work

:28:27. > :28:30.we look at ways to sharpen work incentives and ensure there is

:28:30. > :28:30.incentives and ensure there is incentives and ensure there is

:28:31. > :28:31.incentives and ensure there is fairness in the system How much are

:28:31. > :28:33.fairness in the system How much are fairness in the system How much are

:28:33. > :28:34.you looking in terms of savings, you looking in terms of savings,

:28:34. > :28:36.you looking in terms of savings, are you looking for �10 billion,

:28:36. > :28:36.are you looking for �10 billion, are you looking for �10 billion,

:28:36. > :28:38.that is what George Osborne that is what George Osborne

:28:38. > :28:40.that is what George Osborne suggested? It is a matter of

:28:40. > :28:41.suggested? It is a matter of suggested? It is a matter of

:28:41. > :28:42.context at the moment with the context at the moment with the

:28:42. > :28:43.context at the moment with the budget and Spending Review. There

:28:43. > :28:44.budget and Spending Review. There budget and Spending Review. There

:28:44. > :28:45.is a continued focus and is a continued focus and

:28:45. > :28:47.is a continued focus and expectation from the taxpayer.

:28:47. > :28:47.expectation from the taxpayer. expectation from the taxpayer.

:28:47. > :28:49.not necessarily �10 billion? There not necessarily �10 billion? There

:28:49. > :28:50.not necessarily �10 billion? There not necessarily �10 billion? There

:28:50. > :28:51.is an expectation that we look very is an expectation that we look very

:28:51. > :28:52.is an expectation that we look very carefully at the benefits bill, it

:28:52. > :28:53.carefully at the benefits bill, it carefully at the benefits bill, it

:28:53. > :28:53.is not just about pressuring is not just about pressuring

:28:54. > :28:54.is not just about pressuring Government to do that, but tax-

:28:55. > :28:56.Government to do that, but tax- Government to do that, but tax-

:28:56. > :28:57.payers expect us to look very payers expect us to look very

:28:57. > :28:58.payers expect us to look very carefully at it. That has driven

:28:58. > :28:59.carefully at it. That has driven carefully at it. That has driven

:28:59. > :29:01.the reforms we have introduced so the reforms we have introduced so

:29:01. > :29:02.the reforms we have introduced so far, that make the benefit bill

:29:02. > :29:03.far, that make the benefit bill far, that make the benefit bill

:29:03. > :29:04.more sustainable, and rewards those more sustainable, and rewards those

:29:04. > :29:05.more sustainable, and rewards those doing the right thing and getting

:29:05. > :29:06.doing the right thing and getting doing the right thing and getting

:29:06. > :29:07.into work. Social security spending into work. Social security spending

:29:07. > :29:08.into work. Social security spending into work. Social security spending

:29:08. > :29:09.will be actually taking more of a will be actually taking more of a

:29:09. > :29:10.will be actually taking more of a our national income, in 2017, at

:29:10. > :29:11.our national income, in 2017, at our national income, in 2017, at

:29:11. > :29:12.our national income, in 2017, at the end of all this austerity, all

:29:12. > :29:13.the end of all this austerity, all the end of all this austerity, all

:29:13. > :29:13.the end of all this austerity, all of this squeeze, than it did at the

:29:13. > :29:14.of this squeeze, than it did at the of this squeeze, than it did at the

:29:14. > :29:16.of this squeeze, than it did at the beginning. It is going to go up by

:29:16. > :29:17.beginning. It is going to go up by beginning. It is going to go up by

:29:17. > :29:18.beginning. It is going to go up by 3% of GDP, at the same time that

:29:18. > :29:19.3% of GDP, at the same time that 3% of GDP, at the same time that

:29:19. > :29:20.you are cutting defence, you are you are cutting defence, you are

:29:20. > :29:21.you are cutting defence, you are cutting law and order, large parts

:29:21. > :29:23.cutting law and order, large parts cutting law and order, large parts

:29:23. > :29:24.of public services being cut by of public services being cut by

:29:24. > :29:25.of public services being cut by of public services being cut by

:29:25. > :29:26.more than 25%. Can you see why a more than 25%. Can you see why a

:29:26. > :29:27.more than 25%. Can you see why a lot of Conservative voters would

:29:27. > :29:28.lot of Conservative voters would lot of Conservative voters would

:29:28. > :29:30.say what are the priorities here? say what are the priorities here?

:29:30. > :29:33.say what are the priorities here? say what are the priorities here?

:29:33. > :29:34.We have also taken some very clear We have also taken some very clear

:29:34. > :29:35.decisions around welfare spending, decisions around welfare spending,

:29:35. > :29:36.decisions around welfare spending, for example we introduced a triple

:29:36. > :29:37.for example we introduced a triple for example we introduced a triple

:29:37. > :29:39.lot for pensions, the state pension lot for pensions, the state pension

:29:39. > :29:41.lot for pensions, the state pension lot for pensions, the state pension

:29:41. > :29:42.will always go up by 2.5% per an will always go up by 2.5% per an

:29:42. > :29:43.will always go up by 2.5% per an number. We have protected the

:29:43. > :29:45.number. We have protected the Winter Fuel Allowance. Which

:29:45. > :29:46.Winter Fuel Allowance. Which Winter Fuel Allowance. Which

:29:46. > :29:48.guarantees spending more and more guarantees spending more and more

:29:48. > :29:48.guarantees spending more and more and more on elderly benefits?

:29:49. > :29:50.and more on elderly benefits? and more on elderly benefits?

:29:50. > :29:52.have made a commitment to support have made a commitment to support

:29:52. > :29:53.have made a commitment to support older people through the pensions

:29:53. > :29:54.older people through the pensions by protecting Winter Fuel

:29:54. > :29:55.by protecting Winter Fuel by protecting Winter Fuel

:29:55. > :29:56.Allowances and free bus passes. Allowances and free bus passes.

:29:56. > :29:57.Allowances and free bus passes. Allowances and free bus passes.

:29:57. > :29:58.That is one of the reasons why the That is one of the reasons why the

:29:58. > :29:59.That is one of the reasons why the That is one of the reasons why the

:29:59. > :30:02.Welfare Bill is going up. That was Welfare Bill is going up. That was

:30:02. > :30:03.Welfare Bill is going up. That was a very clear commitment we entered

:30:03. > :30:03.a very clear commitment we entered a very clear commitment we entered

:30:03. > :30:05.a very clear commitment we entered into in the election and one we are

:30:05. > :30:05.into in the election and one we are into in the election and one we are

:30:05. > :30:06.sticking by. Given all the sticking by. Given all the

:30:06. > :30:07.sticking by. Given all the pressures and given that everyone

:30:07. > :30:08.pressures and given that everyone pressures and given that everyone

:30:08. > :30:09.understands things have to be cut understands things have to be cut

:30:09. > :30:10.understands things have to be cut and you have to make difficult

:30:10. > :30:11.and you have to make difficult decisions, wouldn't you have

:30:11. > :30:12.decisions, wouldn't you have decisions, wouldn't you have

:30:12. > :30:14.expected you could have get further expected you could have get further

:30:14. > :30:15.expected you could have get further in cutting social security? If not

:30:15. > :30:16.in cutting social security? If not in cutting social security? If not

:30:17. > :30:18.in cutting social security? If not now, when? We have set up clear

:30:18. > :30:19.now, when? We have set up clear now, when? We have set up clear

:30:19. > :30:21.reform, some very clear measures to reform, some very clear measures to

:30:21. > :30:22.reform, some very clear measures to reform, some very clear measures to

:30:22. > :30:23.tackle some of the problems of the tackle some of the problems of the

:30:23. > :30:25.tackle some of the problems of the benefits system, to rein back the

:30:25. > :30:25.benefits system, to rein back the benefits system, to rein back the

:30:25. > :30:26.growth in housing benefit. There growth in housing benefit. There

:30:26. > :30:27.growth in housing benefit. There growth in housing benefit. There

:30:27. > :30:28.was a big challenge here to make was a big challenge here to make

:30:28. > :30:29.was a big challenge here to make was a big challenge here to make

:30:29. > :30:30.sure we have a system that protects sure we have a system that protects

:30:30. > :30:31.sure we have a system that protects sure we have a system that protects

:30:31. > :30:32.those in need. That is why we have those in need. That is why we have

:30:32. > :30:33.those in need. That is why we have protected benefits for the disabled.

:30:33. > :30:34.protected benefits for the disabled. protected benefits for the disabled.

:30:34. > :30:35.protected benefits for the disabled. We don't want to hit the most

:30:35. > :30:35.We don't want to hit the most We don't want to hit the most

:30:35. > :30:36.vulnerable in society. But at the vulnerable in society. But at the

:30:36. > :30:38.vulnerable in society. But at the vulnerable in society. But at the

:30:38. > :30:39.same time we do need to find ways same time we do need to find ways

:30:39. > :30:40.same time we do need to find ways to tackle that growth in the

:30:40. > :30:42.to tackle that growth in the to tackle that growth in the

:30:42. > :30:43.benefits bill and provide the right benefits bill and provide the right

:30:43. > :30:44.benefits bill and provide the right incentives, get people into work

:30:44. > :30:45.incentives, get people into work incentives, get people into work

:30:45. > :30:46.incentives, get people into work but be fair to knows in work and

:30:46. > :30:47.but be fair to knows in work and out of work.

:30:47. > :30:48.out of work. out of work.

:30:48. > :30:49.out of work. -- Those in work and out of work.

:30:49. > :30:50.-- Those in work and out of work. -- Those in work and out of work.

:30:50. > :30:51.-- Those in work and out of work. My guests are still here, we have

:30:51. > :30:52.My guests are still here, we have My guests are still here, we have

:30:52. > :30:53.talked about the change in talked about the change in

:30:53. > :30:54.talked about the change in attitudes to welfare, some of the

:30:54. > :30:55.attitudes to welfare, some of the financial challenges the Government

:30:55. > :30:56.financial challenges the Government financial challenges the Government

:30:56. > :30:59.financial challenges the Government is facing and the changes that are

:30:59. > :30:59.is facing and the changes that are is facing and the changes that are

:30:59. > :31:00.coming in. So, James Bartholemew, coming in. So, James Bartholemew,

:31:00. > :31:02.coming in. So, James Bartholemew, coming in. So, James Bartholemew,

:31:02. > :31:03.do you think this adds up, in the do you think this adds up, in the

:31:03. > :31:04.do you think this adds up, in the do you think this adds up, in the

:31:04. > :31:05.round, do you think this adds up to round, do you think this adds up to

:31:05. > :31:07.round, do you think this adds up to a coherent strategy the changes the

:31:07. > :31:07.a coherent strategy the changes the a coherent strategy the changes the

:31:07. > :31:09.Government are making? It is Government are making? It is

:31:09. > :31:10.reasonably coherent, it probably reasonably coherent, it probably

:31:10. > :31:11.reasonably coherent, it probably reasonably coherent, it probably

:31:11. > :31:13.doesn't go far enough. It is still doesn't go far enough. It is still

:31:13. > :31:15.doesn't go far enough. It is still going to be the position, even

:31:15. > :31:17.going to be the position, even going to be the position, even

:31:17. > :31:18.after the universal benefits, it after the universal benefits, it

:31:18. > :31:19.seems extraordinary that the seems extraordinary that the

:31:19. > :31:20.seems extraordinary that the universal benefit was necessary to

:31:20. > :31:21.universal benefit was necessary to universal benefit was necessary to

:31:21. > :31:22.universal benefit was necessary to make it worthwhile to work at all.

:31:22. > :31:23.make it worthwhile to work at all. make it worthwhile to work at all.

:31:23. > :31:24.make it worthwhile to work at all. In Peter Lilley's team the DSS used

:31:24. > :31:26.In Peter Lilley's team the DSS used In Peter Lilley's team the DSS used

:31:26. > :31:27.to have reports showing that to have reports showing that

:31:27. > :31:28.to have reports showing that hundreds of thousands of people

:31:28. > :31:30.hundreds of thousands of people hundreds of thousands of people

:31:30. > :31:32.would only benefit by 10% by would only benefit by 10% by

:31:32. > :31:33.would only benefit by 10% by working. They were working despite

:31:33. > :31:34.working. They were working despite working. They were working despite

:31:34. > :31:35.working. They were working despite the fact they were only gaining 10%.

:31:35. > :31:36.the fact they were only gaining 10%. the fact they were only gaining 10%.

:31:36. > :31:37.We were relying on goodwill for We were relying on goodwill for

:31:38. > :31:38.We were relying on goodwill for people to work. That was totally

:31:38. > :31:39.people to work. That was totally people to work. That was totally

:31:39. > :31:40.people to work. That was totally wrong and it is absurd that it has

:31:40. > :31:41.wrong and it is absurd that it has wrong and it is absurd that it has

:31:41. > :31:42.wrong and it is absurd that it has taken us so long to get to this

:31:42. > :31:44.taken us so long to get to this taken us so long to get to this

:31:44. > :31:45.taken us so long to get to this state. It has taken us a generation

:31:45. > :31:46.state. It has taken us a generation state. It has taken us a generation

:31:46. > :31:47.state. It has taken us a generation for the public to be ready to

:31:47. > :31:47.for the public to be ready to for the public to be ready to

:31:47. > :31:48.accept this, and for the accept this, and for the

:31:48. > :31:49.accept this, and for the accept this, and for the

:31:49. > :31:50.politicians to be ready to take it politicians to be ready to take it

:31:50. > :31:52.politicians to be ready to take it on. Because they were very, very

:31:52. > :31:53.on. Because they were very, very on. Because they were very, very

:31:53. > :31:55.cautious for so long. Kate Pickett, cautious for so long. Kate Pickett,

:31:55. > :31:57.cautious for so long. Kate Pickett, cautious for so long. Kate Pickett,

:31:57. > :31:57.you may not like all these changes, you may not like all these changes,

:31:57. > :31:58.you may not like all these changes, you may not like all these changes,

:31:58. > :31:59.but if they build support for the but if they build support for the

:31:59. > :32:00.but if they build support for the system, if they do reward work,

:32:00. > :32:01.system, if they do reward work, system, if they do reward work,

:32:01. > :32:03.that won good for the welfare that won good for the welfare

:32:03. > :32:04.that won good for the welfare that won good for the welfare

:32:04. > :32:05.system in the long run? It would be system in the long run? It would be

:32:05. > :32:06.system in the long run? It would be wonderful to reward work. I don't

:32:06. > :32:07.wonderful to reward work. I don't wonderful to reward work. I don't

:32:07. > :32:08.see it as a particularly coherent see it as a particularly coherent

:32:08. > :32:09.see it as a particularly coherent see it as a particularly coherent

:32:09. > :32:11.plan. I think the only thing that plan. I think the only thing that

:32:11. > :32:13.seems coherent about this seems coherent about this

:32:13. > :32:14.seems coherent about this Government's actions is the wish to

:32:14. > :32:15.Government's actions is the wish to Government's actions is the wish to

:32:15. > :32:16.divide neighbour from neighbour. To divide neighbour from neighbour. To

:32:16. > :32:17.divide neighbour from neighbour. To draw a distinction between the

:32:17. > :32:18.draw a distinction between the draw a distinction between the

:32:19. > :32:20.deserving poor and undeserving poor. deserving poor and undeserving poor.

:32:20. > :32:21.deserving poor and undeserving poor. deserving poor and undeserving poor.

:32:21. > :32:22.And it shocks me actually. Do you And it shocks me actually. Do you

:32:22. > :32:24.And it shocks me actually. Do you think no distinction should be made

:32:24. > :32:25.think no distinction should be made think no distinction should be made

:32:25. > :32:26.between those who deserve benefit between those who deserve benefit

:32:26. > :32:27.between those who deserve benefit and those who don't deserve

:32:27. > :32:28.and those who don't deserve and those who don't deserve

:32:28. > :32:29.and those who don't deserve benefit? I think we need to create

:32:29. > :32:30.benefit? I think we need to create benefit? I think we need to create

:32:30. > :32:31.benefit? I think we need to create a society where we care for the

:32:31. > :32:33.a society where we care for the a society where we care for the

:32:33. > :32:34.vulnerable, and we care for the vulnerable, and we care for the

:32:34. > :32:35.vulnerable, and we care for the less resilient. The vulnerable and

:32:35. > :32:37.less resilient. The vulnerable and less resilient. The vulnerable and

:32:37. > :32:38.deserving poor. We make our policy deserving poor. We make our policy

:32:38. > :32:39.deserving poor. We make our policy deserving poor. We make our policy

:32:39. > :32:40.for that. We don't make policy on for that. We don't make policy on

:32:40. > :32:41.for that. We don't make policy on for that. We don't make policy on

:32:41. > :32:42.the fact that a tiny proportion of the fact that a tiny proportion of

:32:42. > :32:44.the fact that a tiny proportion of those on benefits are fraudulent.

:32:44. > :32:45.those on benefits are fraudulent. those on benefits are fraudulent.

:32:45. > :32:46.One thing that does make it One thing that does make it

:32:46. > :32:47.One thing that does make it difficult is the undeserving poor

:32:47. > :32:49.difficult is the undeserving poor difficult is the undeserving poor

:32:49. > :32:51.have children, they can end up have children, they can end up

:32:51. > :32:53.have children, they can end up suffering? I'm not sure who the

:32:53. > :32:54.suffering? I'm not sure who the suffering? I'm not sure who the

:32:54. > :32:55.undeserving poor are? I think we undeserving poor are? I think we

:32:55. > :32:56.undeserving poor are? I think we undeserving poor are? I think we

:32:56. > :32:58.have to remember that the rise in have to remember that the rise in

:32:58. > :32:59.benefit expenditure since the benefit expenditure since the

:32:59. > :33:01.benefit expenditure since the recession has actually been to

:33:01. > :33:02.recession has actually been to recession has actually been to

:33:02. > :33:03.recession has actually been to working people. We have also got to

:33:03. > :33:04.working people. We have also got to working people. We have also got to

:33:04. > :33:05.remember that most people when they remember that most people when they

:33:05. > :33:06.remember that most people when they remember that most people when they

:33:06. > :33:07.are on out of work benefits, that are on out of work benefits, that

:33:07. > :33:07.are on out of work benefits, that are on out of work benefits, that

:33:08. > :33:09.is not a permanent state. They are is not a permanent state. They are

:33:09. > :33:11.is not a permanent state. They are in and out of short-term, sporadic,

:33:11. > :33:11.in and out of short-term, sporadic, in and out of short-term, sporadic,

:33:11. > :33:12.often very poor-quality jobs. The often very poor-quality jobs. The

:33:12. > :33:13.often very poor-quality jobs. The often very poor-quality jobs. The

:33:13. > :33:13.idea that people have been out of idea that people have been out of

:33:13. > :33:16.idea that people have been out of work for two or three generations,

:33:16. > :33:17.work for two or three generations, work for two or three generations,

:33:17. > :33:18.that is a very, very rare that is a very, very rare

:33:18. > :33:19.that is a very, very rare phenomenon. You can't have it both

:33:19. > :33:20.phenomenon. You can't have it both phenomenon. You can't have it both

:33:20. > :33:21.ways, you can't accuse them of ways, you can't accuse them of

:33:21. > :33:22.ways, you can't accuse them of dividing people and also attacking

:33:22. > :33:25.dividing people and also attacking dividing people and also attacking

:33:25. > :33:26.the deserving poor, it sound like the deserving poor, it sound like

:33:26. > :33:28.the deserving poor, it sound like they are not dividing people they

:33:28. > :33:29.they are not dividing people they they are not dividing people they

:33:29. > :33:31.areing things for everybody? There areing things for everybody? There

:33:31. > :33:33.areing things for everybody? There is a tarring of all benefits

:33:33. > :33:34.is a tarring of all benefits is a tarring of all benefits

:33:34. > :33:35.recipient as not deserving. Which recipient as not deserving. Which

:33:35. > :33:38.recipient as not deserving. Which is extremely unfair to people who

:33:38. > :33:39.is extremely unfair to people who is extremely unfair to people who

:33:39. > :33:40.is extremely unfair to people who are desperate to work, who are, as

:33:40. > :33:41.are desperate to work, who are, as are desperate to work, who are, as

:33:41. > :33:42.Peter says, caring for family Peter says, caring for family

:33:42. > :33:43.Peter says, caring for family Peter says, caring for family

:33:44. > :33:45.members, who may be too sick to members, who may be too sick to

:33:45. > :33:46.members, who may be too sick to work. The problem is, while people

:33:46. > :33:48.work. The problem is, while people work. The problem is, while people

:33:48. > :33:49.feel rightly very angry if they feel rightly very angry if they

:33:49. > :33:50.feel rightly very angry if they feel system is being abused, the

:33:50. > :33:52.feel system is being abused, the feel system is being abused, the

:33:52. > :33:53.feel system is being abused, the levels of fraud is very low, 0.8%.

:33:53. > :33:54.levels of fraud is very low, 0.8%. levels of fraud is very low, 0.8%.

:33:54. > :33:55.levels of fraud is very low, 0.8%. That is not correct. Yes it is

:33:55. > :33:56.That is not correct. Yes it is That is not correct. Yes it is

:33:56. > :33:57.That is not correct. Yes it is correct. It is also the case that

:33:57. > :33:58.correct. It is also the case that correct. It is also the case that

:33:58. > :33:59.people don't know the circumstances people don't know the circumstances

:33:59. > :34:00.people don't know the circumstances of their neighbours, they know what

:34:00. > :34:01.of their neighbours, they know what of their neighbours, they know what

:34:01. > :34:02.of their neighbours, they know what they can see, but it is not obvious

:34:02. > :34:04.they can see, but it is not obvious they can see, but it is not obvious

:34:04. > :34:05.if someone has a mental health if someone has a mental health

:34:05. > :34:06.if someone has a mental health problem, we saw John and his

:34:06. > :34:08.problem, we saw John and his problem, we saw John and his

:34:08. > :34:08.serious mental health issues in the serious mental health issues in the

:34:09. > :34:09.serious mental health issues in the serious mental health issues in the

:34:09. > :34:10.earlier clip. I think it is quite earlier clip. I think it is quite

:34:10. > :34:11.earlier clip. I think it is quite difficult for people really to know

:34:11. > :34:12.difficult for people really to know difficult for people really to know

:34:12. > :34:13.difficult for people really to know what's going on. I think we have to

:34:13. > :34:13.what's going on. I think we have to what's going on. I think we have to

:34:13. > :34:15.what's going on. I think we have to find a very different way of having

:34:15. > :34:16.find a very different way of having find a very different way of having

:34:16. > :34:18.this discussion with the public, this discussion with the public,

:34:18. > :34:20.this discussion with the public, rather than simply allowing this

:34:20. > :34:21.rather than simply allowing this rather than simply allowing this

:34:21. > :34:22.rather than simply allowing this blame culture to extend. There is a

:34:22. > :34:23.blame culture to extend. There is a blame culture to extend. There is a

:34:23. > :34:24.blame culture to extend. There is a little point in blaming -- there is

:34:24. > :34:25.little point in blaming -- there is little point in blaming -- there is

:34:25. > :34:26.little point in blaming anybody. little point in blaming anybody.

:34:26. > :34:28.little point in blaming anybody. You have to introduce conditions,

:34:28. > :34:29.You have to introduce conditions, You have to introduce conditions,

:34:29. > :34:30.enforce them properly, so those who enforce them properly, so those who

:34:30. > :34:31.enforce them properly, so those who enforce them properly, so those who

:34:31. > :34:32.can work do work. Those who have an can work do work. Those who have an

:34:32. > :34:33.can work do work. Those who have an element of disability that doesn't

:34:33. > :34:34.element of disability that doesn't element of disability that doesn't

:34:34. > :34:35.prevent them work are helped into prevent them work are helped into

:34:35. > :34:35.prevent them work are helped into prevent them work are helped into

:34:36. > :34:37.work. That is what people want to work. That is what people want to

:34:37. > :34:38.work. That is what people want to see. Is that fairness, is that,

:34:38. > :34:38.see. Is that fairness, is that, see. Is that fairness, is that,

:34:38. > :34:39.see. Is that fairness, is that, when you are looking at the changes,

:34:39. > :34:40.when you are looking at the changes, when you are looking at the changes,

:34:40. > :34:40.when you are looking at the changes, when you are looking at the changes,

:34:40. > :34:41.do you think of it in terms it of do you think of it in terms it of

:34:41. > :34:42.do you think of it in terms it of do you think of it in terms it of

:34:42. > :34:43.fairness. Or do you think about it fairness. Or do you think about it

:34:43. > :34:43.fairness. Or do you think about it fairness. Or do you think about it

:34:43. > :34:44.in terms of saving money? We have in terms of saving money? We have

:34:44. > :34:45.in terms of saving money? We have in terms of saving money? We have

:34:45. > :34:47.seen there is a huge pressure on seen there is a huge pressure on

:34:47. > :34:48.seen there is a huge pressure on seen there is a huge pressure on

:34:48. > :34:49.the spending of money? It is unfair the spending of money? It is unfair

:34:49. > :34:51.the spending of money? It is unfair when it involves taking money from

:34:51. > :34:52.when it involves taking money from when it involves taking money from

:34:52. > :34:53.hard working people to give it hard working people to give it

:34:53. > :34:54.hard working people to give it people who could be hard working

:34:54. > :34:55.people who could be hard working people who could be hard working

:34:55. > :34:56.themselves. It is fairness and themselves. It is fairness and

:34:56. > :34:57.themselves. It is fairness and money saving behind it. Certainly,

:34:57. > :34:59.money saving behind it. Certainly, money saving behind it. Certainly,

:34:59. > :35:00.there are millions of people in there are millions of people in

:35:00. > :35:01.there are millions of people in this country who earn modest sums

:35:01. > :35:04.this country who earn modest sums this country who earn modest sums

:35:04. > :35:07.this country who earn modest sums of money, I wished they earned more,

:35:07. > :35:09.of money, I wished they earned more, of money, I wished they earned more,

:35:09. > :35:09.�25,000, �1500, and �10,000 a year, �25,000, �1500, and �10,000 a year,

:35:09. > :35:12.�25,000, �1500, and �10,000 a year, they are amazed that everyone would

:35:12. > :35:14.they are amazed that everyone would they are amazed that everyone would

:35:14. > :35:16.they are amazed that everyone would object to a cap of �26,000 on the

:35:16. > :35:17.object to a cap of �26,000 on the total benefit someone receives.

:35:17. > :35:18.total benefit someone receives. They are bewildered, everyone

:35:18. > :35:19.They are bewildered, everyone They are bewildered, everyone

:35:19. > :35:20.They are bewildered, everyone working has a natural cap on what

:35:20. > :35:21.working has a natural cap on what working has a natural cap on what

:35:21. > :35:22.they can afford. That is not they can afford. That is not

:35:22. > :35:24.they can afford. That is not raising very much money, in many

:35:24. > :35:25.raising very much money, in many raising very much money, in many

:35:25. > :35:26.ways the cap is symbolic, although ways the cap is symbolic, although

:35:26. > :35:28.ways the cap is symbolic, although ways the cap is symbolic, although

:35:28. > :35:29.it will affect some families a lot. it will affect some families a lot.

:35:29. > :35:31.it will affect some families a lot. There are, for every non-working

:35:31. > :35:33.There are, for every non-working There are, for every non-working

:35:33. > :35:34.household, that will be affected by household, that will be affected by

:35:34. > :35:35.household, that will be affected by household, that will be affected by

:35:35. > :35:37.the cut in real level of benefits, the cut in real level of benefits,

:35:37. > :35:40.the cut in real level of benefits, there is twois as many working-age

:35:40. > :35:40.there is twois as many working-age there is twois as many working-age

:35:40. > :35:41.-- twice as many working-age -- twice as many working-age

:35:41. > :35:42.-- twice as many working-age households, at the same time you

:35:42. > :35:45.households, at the same time you households, at the same time you

:35:45. > :35:46.say it working households will be say it working households will be

:35:46. > :35:47.affected. Seven million households affected. Seven million households

:35:47. > :35:48.affected. Seven million households affected. Seven million households

:35:48. > :35:50.will be affected? The bulk of tax will be affected? The bulk of tax

:35:50. > :35:51.will be affected? The bulk of tax credits introduced go to the Child

:35:51. > :35:51.credits introduced go to the Child credits introduced go to the Child

:35:51. > :35:52.credits introduced go to the Child Tax Credit which goes to people out

:35:53. > :35:55.Tax Credit which goes to people out Tax Credit which goes to people out

:35:55. > :35:56.Tax Credit which goes to people out Tax Credit which goes to people out

:35:56. > :35:58.of work as well as in work. The IFS of work as well as in work. The IFS

:35:58. > :36:00.of work as well as in work. The IFS says it is 2.5 million non-working

:36:00. > :36:04.says it is 2.5 million non-working says it is 2.5 million non-working

:36:04. > :36:06.households will lose out, seven households will lose out, seven

:36:06. > :36:06.million of working-age households. million of working-age households.

:36:06. > :36:08.Including housing benefit and Including housing benefit and

:36:08. > :36:09.Including housing benefit and council tax going to working people.

:36:09. > :36:10.council tax going to working people. council tax going to working people.

:36:10. > :36:14.council tax going to working people. The Child Tax Credit as poeter says,

:36:14. > :36:15.The Child Tax Credit as poeter says, The Child Tax Credit as poeter says,

:36:15. > :36:16.goes to working people, the Working goes to working people, the Working

:36:16. > :36:17.goes to working people, the Working Tax Credit which goes to working

:36:17. > :36:17.Tax Credit which goes to working Tax Credit which goes to working

:36:17. > :36:19.people. So you are saying nothing people. So you are saying nothing

:36:19. > :36:21.people. So you are saying nothing should be done about housing

:36:21. > :36:23.should be done about housing should be done about housing

:36:23. > :36:24.benefit, costing every house in the benefit, costing every house in the

:36:24. > :36:26.benefit, costing every house in the country �1,000 a year? Yes, of

:36:26. > :36:27.country �1,000 a year? Yes, of country �1,000 a year? Yes, of

:36:27. > :36:28.course, the problem is not the course, the problem is not the

:36:28. > :36:30.course, the problem is not the money going to individual families

:36:30. > :36:31.money going to individual families money going to individual families

:36:31. > :36:32.money going to individual families but the high rents. That could be

:36:32. > :36:33.but the high rents. That could be spent better? Absolutely, we

:36:33. > :36:34.spent better? Absolutely, we spent better? Absolutely, we

:36:34. > :36:36.shouldn't run away with the idea shouldn't run away with the idea

:36:36. > :36:37.shouldn't run away with the idea that these are families who are

:36:38. > :36:39.that these are families who are that these are families who are

:36:39. > :36:40.taking money and living some taking money and living some

:36:40. > :36:41.taking money and living some extravagant lifestyle. The money is

:36:41. > :36:42.extravagant lifestyle. The money is extravagant lifestyle. The money is

:36:42. > :36:43.going to landlords. Another piece going to landlords. Another piece

:36:43. > :36:44.going to landlords. Another piece going to landlords. Another piece

:36:44. > :36:45.of fairness, some would say, is the of fairness, some would say, is the

:36:45. > :36:47.of fairness, some would say, is the protection of benefits for the

:36:47. > :36:48.protection of benefits for the protection of benefits for the

:36:48. > :36:49.elderly. You mentioned it earlier. elderly. You mentioned it earlier.

:36:49. > :36:50.elderly. You mentioned it earlier. elderly. You mentioned it earlier.

:36:50. > :36:52.Peter Lilley, do you think it is Peter Lilley, do you think it is

:36:52. > :36:54.sustainable all that have sustainable all that have

:36:54. > :36:55.sustainable all that have protection that the fence around

:36:55. > :36:56.protection that the fence around protection that the fence around

:36:56. > :36:59.elderly benefit, going into the elderly benefit, going into the

:36:59. > :37:00.elderly benefit, going into the next election? I doubt it,

:37:00. > :37:01.next election? I doubt it, particularly the additional

:37:02. > :37:03.particularly the additional particularly the additional

:37:03. > :37:05.benefits that pensioners get, where benefits that pensioners get, where

:37:05. > :37:06.benefits that pensioners get, where we made a promise, probably an

:37:06. > :37:08.we made a promise, probably an we made a promise, probably an

:37:08. > :37:08.unwise promise before the last unwise promise before the last

:37:08. > :37:09.unwise promise before the last election. At least one could

:37:09. > :37:11.election. At least one could election. At least one could

:37:11. > :37:12.maintain the spirit of it, but maintain the spirit of it, but

:37:12. > :37:13.maintain the spirit of it, but raise the age at which people

:37:13. > :37:14.raise the age at which people raise the age at which people

:37:14. > :37:15.become entitled to free TV or become entitled to free TV or

:37:15. > :37:16.become entitled to free TV or travel. Do you think those things

:37:16. > :37:17.travel. Do you think those things travel. Do you think those things

:37:17. > :37:17.travel. Do you think those things should be on the table in the

:37:17. > :37:18.should be on the table in the should be on the table in the

:37:18. > :37:22.summer, for the new round of summer, for the new round of

:37:22. > :37:23.summer, for the new round of spending cuts we have talked about,

:37:23. > :37:24.spending cuts we have talked about, spending cuts we have talked about,

:37:24. > :37:24.�6-�10 billion? I don't think there �6-�10 billion? I don't think there

:37:24. > :37:25.�6-�10 billion? I don't think there is much likelihood, the Government

:37:25. > :37:26.is much likelihood, the Government is much likelihood, the Government

:37:26. > :37:28.is constrained by two things, one is constrained by two things, one

:37:28. > :37:32.is constrained by two things, one is constrained by two things, one

:37:32. > :37:34.the promises it made, and two, the the promises it made, and two, the

:37:34. > :37:34.the promises it made, and two, the Liberal Democrats who cave at most

:37:35. > :37:36.Liberal Democrats who cave at most Liberal Democrats who cave at most

:37:36. > :37:37.sensible reforms. What do you think sensible reforms. What do you think

:37:37. > :37:38.sensible reforms. What do you think they should do about elderly

:37:38. > :37:39.they should do about elderly they should do about elderly

:37:39. > :37:40.benefits? It is unsustainable. You benefits? It is unsustainable. You

:37:40. > :37:41.benefits? It is unsustainable. You cannot have it three-ways, in which

:37:41. > :37:42.cannot have it three-ways, in which cannot have it three-ways, in which

:37:42. > :37:43.cannot have it three-ways, in which it is always going to be the

:37:43. > :37:46.it is always going to be the it is always going to be the

:37:46. > :37:48.it is always going to be the highest, forever. It has to be just

:37:48. > :37:49.highest, forever. It has to be just highest, forever. It has to be just

:37:49. > :37:50.a one-term promise, done for a one-term promise, done for

:37:50. > :37:51.a one-term promise, done for electoral advantage. I think a lot

:37:51. > :37:52.electoral advantage. I think a lot electoral advantage. I think a lot

:37:52. > :37:53.of things the Government has done of things the Government has done

:37:53. > :37:54.of things the Government has done of things the Government has done

:37:54. > :37:55.are very good, I'm afraid that is are very good, I'm afraid that is

:37:55. > :37:56.are very good, I'm afraid that is not a long-term sustainable policy.

:37:56. > :37:57.not a long-term sustainable policy. not a long-term sustainable policy.

:37:57. > :37:58.Unless, of course, you keep on Unless, of course, you keep on

:37:58. > :37:59.Unless, of course, you keep on ratesing the pension age. If you

:37:59. > :38:00.ratesing the pension age. If you ratesing the pension age. If you

:38:00. > :38:01.ratesing the pension age. If you raise it to 9 -- raising the

:38:01. > :38:02.raise it to 9 -- raising the raise it to 9 -- raising the

:38:02. > :38:04.raise it to 9 -- raising the pension age. If you raise it to 90

:38:04. > :38:05.pension age. If you raise it to 90 pension age. If you raise it to 90

:38:05. > :38:06.pension age. If you raise it to 90 then there is no problem. You

:38:06. > :38:07.then there is no problem. You then there is no problem. You

:38:07. > :38:08.then there is no problem. You say in your book that the welfare

:38:08. > :38:09.say in your book that the welfare say in your book that the welfare

:38:09. > :38:11.say in your book that the welfare state lost its way from not having

:38:11. > :38:11.state lost its way from not having state lost its way from not having

:38:11. > :38:12.enough of a contributory principle. enough of a contributory principle.

:38:12. > :38:13.enough of a contributory principle. enough of a contributory principle.

:38:13. > :38:14.Government is trying to get back to Government is trying to get back to

:38:14. > :38:15.Government is trying to get back to the feeling that elderly people

:38:15. > :38:15.the feeling that elderly people the feeling that elderly people

:38:15. > :38:16.the feeling that elderly people have put into the system and now

:38:16. > :38:17.have put into the system and now have put into the system and now

:38:17. > :38:20.have put into the system and now they should get it back? We have

:38:20. > :38:21.they should get it back? We have had an unsustainable contributory

:38:21. > :38:22.had an unsustainable contributory had an unsustainable contributory

:38:22. > :38:23.system. One where it doesn't matter system. One where it doesn't matter

:38:23. > :38:24.system. One where it doesn't matter system. One where it doesn't matter

:38:24. > :38:25.how many people get old, it doesn't how many people get old, it doesn't

:38:25. > :38:26.how many people get old, it doesn't matter how many people are working,

:38:26. > :38:27.matter how many people are working, matter how many people are working,

:38:27. > :38:29.matter how many people are working, you are still Prom mitsing to give

:38:29. > :38:33.you are still Prom mitsing to give you are still Prom mitsing to give

:38:33. > :38:34.endless pensions to everybody. And endless pensions to everybody. And

:38:34. > :38:36.endless pensions to everybody. And that's been too unrealistic, you

:38:36. > :38:38.that's been too unrealistic, you that's been too unrealistic, you

:38:38. > :38:39.have an and reing population it have an and reing population it

:38:39. > :38:40.have an and reing population it can't work. -- reducing population,

:38:40. > :38:42.can't work. -- reducing population, can't work. -- reducing population,

:38:42. > :38:45.can't work. -- reducing population, it doesn't work. It is better to

:38:45. > :38:47.it doesn't work. It is better to it doesn't work. It is better to

:38:47. > :38:49.move to a contributory system which move to a contributory system which

:38:49. > :38:49.move to a contributory system which move to a contributory system which

:38:49. > :38:51.people control and can pass it on people control and can pass it on

:38:51. > :38:52.people control and can pass it on to beneficiaries if they don't pick

:38:52. > :38:52.to beneficiaries if they don't pick to beneficiaries if they don't pick

:38:52. > :38:53.to beneficiaries if they don't pick it up. Like the Chilean system, it

:38:53. > :38:55.it up. Like the Chilean system, it it up. Like the Chilean system, it

:38:55. > :38:57.it up. Like the Chilean system, it is their own money, and it means

:38:57. > :38:58.is their own money, and it means is their own money, and it means

:38:58. > :38:59.they don't have such a disincentive they don't have such a disincentive

:39:00. > :39:01.they don't have such a disincentive they don't have such a disincentive

:39:01. > :39:02.to save, they are forced to save. to save, they are forced to save.

:39:02. > :39:04.to save, they are forced to save. More of a contributery system, it

:39:04. > :39:06.More of a contributery system, it More of a contributery system, it

:39:06. > :39:06.More of a contributery system, it costs a lot of money? But there is

:39:07. > :39:07.costs a lot of money? But there is costs a lot of money? But there is

:39:07. > :39:09.strong popular support for people strong popular support for people

:39:09. > :39:10.strong popular support for people paying in and knowing when they

:39:10. > :39:10.paying in and knowing when they paying in and knowing when they

:39:10. > :39:17.paying in and knowing when they need to they will be able to draw

:39:17. > :39:18.need to they will be able to draw need to they will be able to draw

:39:18. > :39:19.out. I don't agree we should out. I don't agree we should

:39:19. > :39:20.personalise it, and everybody personalise it, and everybody

:39:21. > :39:22.personalise it, and everybody should be running their own fund.

:39:22. > :39:23.should be running their own fund. should be running their own fund.

:39:23. > :39:24.Part of social security is Part of social security is

:39:24. > :39:25.Part of social security is spreading risk across the whole

:39:25. > :39:26.spreading risk across the whole spreading risk across the whole

:39:26. > :39:27.population. It is very unfortunate population. It is very unfortunate

:39:27. > :39:27.population. It is very unfortunate population. It is very unfortunate

:39:27. > :39:29.that exactly at the time when we that exactly at the time when we

:39:29. > :39:31.that exactly at the time when we should be trying to improve and

:39:31. > :39:31.should be trying to improve and should be trying to improve and

:39:31. > :39:33.enhance the position of the enhance the position of the

:39:33. > :39:34.contributory principle in the contributory principle in the

:39:34. > :39:35.social security system, the social security system, the

:39:35. > :39:37.social security system, the Government is stripping it back, so

:39:37. > :39:38.Government is stripping it back, so Government is stripping it back, so

:39:38. > :39:39.it is time-limiting the Employment it is time-limiting the Employment

:39:39. > :39:40.it is time-limiting the Employment Support Allowance. You can't get

:39:40. > :39:41.Support Allowance. You can't get Support Allowance. You can't get

:39:41. > :39:41.away from the fact that social away from the fact that social

:39:41. > :39:42.away from the fact that social security spending is going up with

:39:42. > :39:43.security spending is going up with security spending is going up with

:39:43. > :39:44.security spending is going up with all the changes. How can you resist

:39:44. > :39:45.all the changes. How can you resist all the changes. How can you resist

:39:45. > :39:46.all the changes. How can you resist all the changes? It is going up

:39:46. > :39:47.all the changes? It is going up all the changes? It is going up

:39:47. > :39:49.because of the wider economic because of the wider economic

:39:49. > :39:50.because of the wider economic because of the wider economic

:39:50. > :39:52.failure and began to go up after failure and began to go up after

:39:52. > :39:55.failure and began to go up after recession, because of the automatic

:39:55. > :39:57.recession, because of the automatic recession, because of the automatic

:39:57. > :39:58.stablisers that kicked in. It has stablisers that kicked in. It has

:39:58. > :39:59.addressed long standing problems, addressed long standing problems,

:39:59. > :40:00.addressed long standing problems, the rise in pensioner and child

:40:00. > :40:01.the rise in pensioner and child the rise in pensioner and child

:40:01. > :40:04.poverty we saw over two decades poverty we saw over two decades

:40:04. > :40:04.poverty we saw over two decades before the return of Labour to

:40:04. > :40:05.before the return of Labour to before the return of Labour to

:40:05. > :40:06.before the return of Labour to power in 1997. The real trick is to

:40:06. > :40:07.power in 1997. The real trick is to power in 1997. The real trick is to

:40:07. > :40:08.get more people into employment. We get more people into employment. We

:40:08. > :40:10.get more people into employment. We get more people into employment. We

:40:10. > :40:11.would all agree on that. So more would all agree on that. So more

:40:11. > :40:12.would all agree on that. So more people are making a contribution,

:40:12. > :40:14.people are making a contribution, people are making a contribution,

:40:14. > :40:15.people are making a contribution, and the train is less, and has to

:40:15. > :40:16.and the train is less, and has to and the train is less, and has to

:40:16. > :40:17.and the train is less, and has to be rates of way -- drain is Leeds

:40:17. > :40:18.be rates of way -- drain is Leeds be rates of way -- drain is Leeds

:40:18. > :40:19.be rates of way -- drain is Leeds and the rates of pay. Before the

:40:19. > :40:19.and the rates of pay. Before the and the rates of pay. Before the

:40:19. > :40:21.and the rates of pay. Before the end of the programme we will have

:40:21. > :40:22.end of the programme we will have end of the programme we will have

:40:22. > :40:23.the front pages. But first, Britain the front pages. But first, Britain

:40:23. > :40:24.the front pages. But first, Britain the front pages. But first, Britain

:40:24. > :40:25.has a new bearer of the Eurovision has a new bearer of the Eurovision

:40:25. > :40:27.has a new bearer of the Eurovision has a new bearer of the Eurovision

:40:27. > :40:28.torch. Also a face from the past, torch. Also a face from the past,

:40:28. > :40:31.torch. Also a face from the past, the Welsh singer, Bonnie Tyler,

:40:31. > :40:32.the Welsh singer, Bonnie Tyler, the Welsh singer, Bonnie Tyler,

:40:32. > :40:33.the Welsh singer, Bonnie Tyler, best known for Total Eclipse of the

:40:33. > :40:34.best known for Total Eclipse of the best known for Total Eclipse of the

:40:34. > :40:35.Heart will represent this country Heart will represent this country

:40:35. > :40:36.Heart will represent this country in Sweden this summer. After

:40:36. > :40:38.in Sweden this summer. After Engelbert Humperdinck scraped in

:40:38. > :40:39.Engelbert Humperdinck scraped in Engelbert Humperdinck scraped in

:40:39. > :40:41.Engelbert Humperdinck scraped in second to bottom last year, is a

:40:41. > :40:42.second to bottom last year, is a second to bottom last year, is a

:40:42. > :40:44.star from yesteryear the best choi. star from yesteryear the best choi.

:40:44. > :40:46.star from yesteryear the best choi. Should we even care about the

:40:46. > :40:47.Should we even care about the Should we even care about the

:40:47. > :40:48.annual prospect of null points. annual prospect of null points.

:40:48. > :40:48.annual prospect of null points. annual prospect of null points.

:40:48. > :40:49.Steve Smith has been on the trail Steve Smith has been on the trail

:40:49. > :40:50.Steve Smith has been on the trail Steve Smith has been on the trail

:40:50. > :40:51.of the star and the men and women of the star and the men and women

:40:51. > :40:58.of the star and the men and women who have saddled the poor woman

:40:58. > :41:00.who have saddled the poor woman with a gig.

:41:00. > :41:01.with a gig. with a gig.

:41:01. > :41:03.with a gig. Yeah, what about cliff? Is he, I

:41:03. > :41:06.Yeah, what about cliff? Is he, I Yeah, what about cliff? Is he, I

:41:06. > :41:07.Yeah, what about cliff? Is he, I had no ytd? I know, I've got it?

:41:07. > :41:08.had no ytd? I know, I've got it? had no ytd? I know, I've got it?

:41:08. > :41:09.# I need a hero # I need a hero

:41:09. > :41:10.# I need a hero # I need a hero

:41:10. > :41:11.# I'm holding out for a hero # I'm holding out for a hero

:41:11. > :41:12.# I'm holding out for a hero # I'm holding out for a hero

:41:12. > :41:13.# Till the end of the night # Till the end of the night

:41:13. > :41:14.# Till the end of the night # Till the end of the night

:41:14. > :41:15.# Till the end of the night Yes it was me all along, and it was

:41:15. > :41:18.Yes it was me all along, and it was a reconstruction. But Newsnight

:41:18. > :41:18.a reconstruction. But Newsnight a reconstruction. But Newsnight

:41:18. > :41:21.understands that the process of understands that the process of

:41:21. > :41:23.understands that the process of anointing Bonnie Tyler as the UK's

:41:23. > :41:24.anointing Bonnie Tyler as the UK's anointing Bonnie Tyler as the UK's

:41:24. > :41:25.Eurovision entry did take place in Eurovision entry did take place in

:41:25. > :41:26.Eurovision entry did take place in Eurovision entry did take place in

:41:26. > :41:27.just this kind of, some might say, just this kind of, some might say,

:41:27. > :41:28.just this kind of, some might say, just this kind of, some might say,

:41:28. > :41:29.cloak and dagger way, in a room cloak and dagger way, in a room

:41:29. > :41:36.cloak and dagger way, in a room perhaps not entirely dissimilar to

:41:36. > :41:37.perhaps not entirely dissimilar to perhaps not entirely dissimilar to

:41:37. > :41:38.perhaps not entirely dissimilar to this. Yes, it's the girl from the

:41:38. > :41:38.this. Yes, it's the girl from the this. Yes, it's the girl from the

:41:38. > :41:40.this. Yes, it's the girl from the valleys, with a voice like a harp

:41:40. > :41:42.valleys, with a voice like a harp down a mine shaft.

:41:42. > :41:43.down a mine shaft. down a mine shaft.

:41:43. > :41:45.down a mine shaft. Back in the 80s the only thing

:41:45. > :41:46.Back in the 80s the only thing Back in the 80s the only thing

:41:46. > :41:47.bigger than Bonnie Tyler's ballads bigger than Bonnie Tyler's ballads

:41:47. > :41:51.bigger than Bonnie Tyler's ballads were her shoulder pads, and maybe

:41:51. > :41:52.were her shoulder pads, and maybe her hair spray.

:41:52. > :41:54.her hair spray. # Believe in me

:41:54. > :41:57.# Yeah # Yeah

:41:57. > :41:59.# Yeah # Yeah

:41:59. > :42:01.This is her today, with Beef In Me. This is her today, with Beef In Me.

:42:01. > :42:02.This is her today, with Beef In Me. The UK's entry for the Eurovision

:42:02. > :42:03.The UK's entry for the Eurovision The UK's entry for the Eurovision

:42:03. > :42:04.Song Contest. I think most people Song Contest. I think most people

:42:04. > :42:05.Song Contest. I think most people Song Contest. I think most people

:42:05. > :42:06.over the last few years have been over the last few years have been

:42:06. > :42:09.very disappointed with the very disappointed with the

:42:09. > :42:09.very disappointed with the very disappointed with the

:42:09. > :42:15.Eurovision, it is time for a change. Eurovision, it is time for a change.

:42:15. > :42:16.I'm the change. I'm the change.

:42:16. > :42:18.I'm the change. # So graceful and pure

:42:18. > :42:20.# So graceful and pure # So graceful and pure

:42:20. > :42:21.# And smile bathed in light. # And smile bathed in light.

:42:21. > :42:23.# And smile bathed in light. Remember last year, and Engelbert

:42:23. > :42:23.Remember last year, and Engelbert Remember last year, and Engelbert

:42:24. > :42:25.Humperdinck, I'm not saying he Humperdinck, I'm not saying he

:42:25. > :42:26.Humperdinck, I'm not saying he Humperdinck, I'm not saying he

:42:26. > :42:27.failed to rock the crowd, but they failed to rock the crowd, but they

:42:27. > :42:32.failed to rock the crowd, but they fell asleep half way through his

:42:32. > :42:33.fell asleep half way through his fell asleep half way through his

:42:34. > :42:34.name! The UK's last winners were name! The UK's last winners were

:42:34. > :42:36.name! The UK's last winners were Katrina and the Waves, we haven't

:42:36. > :42:37.Katrina and the Waves, we haven't Katrina and the Waves, we haven't

:42:37. > :42:39.Katrina and the Waves, we haven't got the wave, we think they have

:42:39. > :42:41.got the wave, we think they have got the wave, we think they have

:42:41. > :42:43.got the wave, we think they have drift aid part. But come in now at

:42:43. > :42:43.drift aid part. But come in now at drift aid part. But come in now at

:42:43. > :42:45.drift aid part. But come in now at Trina -- Katrina. Can you hear me,

:42:45. > :42:48.Trina -- Katrina. Can you hear me, Trina -- Katrina. Can you hear me,

:42:48. > :42:50.can you hear me, yes, hello, Katrina calling.

:42:50. > :42:53.Katrina calling. Katrina calling.

:42:53. > :42:53.Katrina calling. # We're all going to shine a light

:42:53. > :42:54.# We're all going to shine a light # We're all going to shine a light

:42:54. > :42:55.together. Bonnie Tyler is one of together. Bonnie Tyler is one of

:42:55. > :42:56.together. Bonnie Tyler is one of the greatest singers in the world.

:42:56. > :42:57.the greatest singers in the world. the greatest singers in the world.

:42:57. > :42:59.the greatest singers in the world. She has a great voice, she's going

:42:59. > :43:00.She has a great voice, she's going She has a great voice, she's going

:43:00. > :43:01.She has a great voice, she's going to be representing the UK with a

:43:01. > :43:02.to be representing the UK with a to be representing the UK with a

:43:02. > :43:03.to be representing the UK with a really great song. As far as I'm

:43:03. > :43:05.really great song. As far as I'm really great song. As far as I'm

:43:05. > :43:06.concerned it is all really, really concerned it is all really, really

:43:06. > :43:09.concerned it is all really, really good. That's what you honestly

:43:09. > :43:11.good. That's what you honestly good. That's what you honestly

:43:11. > :43:12.good. That's what you honestly think? Yeah, no I do really. Yes.

:43:12. > :43:13.think? Yeah, no I do really. Yes. think? Yeah, no I do really. Yes.

:43:13. > :43:15.Some people are saying, bless her, Some people are saying, bless her,

:43:15. > :43:16.Some people are saying, bless her, Bonnie, maybe her best days are

:43:17. > :43:19.Bonnie, maybe her best days are Bonnie, maybe her best days are

:43:19. > :43:21.behind her? She's only 61.Exactly. behind her? She's only 61.Exactly.

:43:21. > :43:23.behind her? She's only 61.Exactly. Look at Shirley Bassey, she

:43:23. > :43:23.Look at Shirley Bassey, she Look at Shirley Bassey, she

:43:23. > :43:24.absolutely rinsed the Oscars. absolutely rinsed the Oscars.

:43:24. > :43:26.absolutely rinsed the Oscars. absolutely rinsed the Oscars.

:43:26. > :43:27.the not so distant past we had a the not so distant past we had a

:43:27. > :43:28.the not so distant past we had a say in who represented the country

:43:28. > :43:29.say in who represented the country say in who represented the country

:43:29. > :43:32.say in who represented the country at the song fest. Although we ended

:43:32. > :43:33.at the song fest. Although we ended at the song fest. Although we ended

:43:33. > :43:35.at the song fest. Although we ended up with the likes of Scooch in 2007,

:43:35. > :43:36.up with the likes of Scooch in 2007, up with the likes of Scooch in 2007,

:43:36. > :43:38.on the night one judge mistakenly on the night one judge mistakenly

:43:39. > :43:39.on the night one judge mistakenly on the night one judge mistakenly

:43:39. > :43:40.gave a higher mark to a floor gave a higher mark to a floor

:43:40. > :43:43.gave a higher mark to a floor polisher. Over the past three years

:43:43. > :43:44.polisher. Over the past three years polisher. Over the past three years

:43:44. > :43:45.though, selecting our act by though, selecting our act by

:43:45. > :43:47.though, selecting our act by popular vote is something we have

:43:47. > :43:48.popular vote is something we have popular vote is something we have

:43:48. > :43:49.popular vote is something we have turned our backs on. Let's call in

:43:49. > :43:51.turned our backs on. Let's call in turned our backs on. Let's call in

:43:51. > :43:52.Fleet Street's finest. Yes, I can Fleet Street's finest. Yes, I can

:43:52. > :43:54.Fleet Street's finest. Yes, I can hear you Steve, this is Kevin

:43:54. > :43:57.hear you Steve, this is Kevin O'Sullivan. Handing the process

:43:57. > :43:58.O'Sullivan. Handing the process O'Sullivan. Handing the process

:43:58. > :44:00.over to this mysterious internal over to this mysterious internal

:44:00. > :44:03.over to this mysterious internal BBC system is very strange, almost

:44:03. > :44:06.BBC system is very strange, almost BBC system is very strange, almost

:44:06. > :44:06.sinister, really. This is always a sinister, really. This is always a

:44:06. > :44:08.sinister, really. This is always a people's contest and it has been

:44:08. > :44:09.people's contest and it has been people's contest and it has been

:44:09. > :44:10.people's contest and it has been taken out of our hands. And worse

:44:10. > :44:11.taken out of our hands. And worse taken out of our hands. And worse

:44:11. > :44:12.taken out of our hands. And worse than that the BBC seems to be

:44:12. > :44:14.than that the BBC seems to be than that the BBC seems to be

:44:14. > :44:17.delivering a series of terrible flops.

:44:17. > :44:18.flops. flops.

:44:18. > :44:21.This programme's worthless if it This programme's worthless if it

:44:21. > :44:22.This programme's worthless if it isn't a historical document. We can

:44:22. > :44:24.isn't a historical document. We can isn't a historical document. We can

:44:24. > :44:25.reveal that Bonnie Tyler got the reveal that Bonnie Tyler got the

:44:25. > :44:26.reveal that Bonnie Tyler got the gig after senior BBC managers heard

:44:26. > :44:27.gig after senior BBC managers heard gig after senior BBC managers heard

:44:27. > :44:28.gig after senior BBC managers heard her latest album. They came back to

:44:28. > :44:29.her latest album. They came back to her latest album. They came back to

:44:29. > :44:30.her latest album. They came back to and said there is a song on there

:44:31. > :44:31.and said there is a song on there and said there is a song on there

:44:32. > :44:33.and said there is a song on there we would love you to do for the

:44:33. > :44:35.we would love you to do for the we would love you to do for the

:44:35. > :44:36.Eurovision. I thought great, what Eurovision. I thought great, what

:44:36. > :44:37.Eurovision. I thought great, what Eurovision. I thought great, what

:44:37. > :44:39.better way to get my music to the better way to get my music to the

:44:39. > :44:42.better way to get my music to the better way to get my music to the

:44:42. > :44:43.rest of the world, it is fantastic. # Congratulations

:44:43. > :44:44.# Congratulations # And jubilations

:44:44. > :44:45.# And jubilations # And jubilations

:44:45. > :44:48.# And jubilations But will we ever be able to

:44:48. > :44:51.But will we ever be able to congratulate ourselves again?

:44:51. > :44:53.congratulate ourselves again? congratulate ourselves again?

:44:53. > :44:55.He's a right-wing blogger, but He's a right-wing blogger, but

:44:55. > :44:58.He's a right-wing blogger, but loves the euro, Eurovision that is.

:44:58. > :45:00.loves the euro, Eurovision that is. loves the euro, Eurovision that is.

:45:00. > :45:01.loves the euro, Eurovision that is. This is Ian Dale calling, this is

:45:01. > :45:02.This is Ian Dale calling, this is ununforeseen consequence of the

:45:02. > :45:03.ununforeseen consequence of the ununforeseen consequence of the

:45:03. > :45:04.fall of the Berlin wall. Margaret fall of the Berlin wall. Margaret

:45:04. > :45:06.fall of the Berlin wall. Margaret Thatcher when she welcomed that,

:45:06. > :45:09.Thatcher when she welcomed that, Thatcher when she welcomed that,

:45:09. > :45:09.never understood it would lead to never understood it would lead to

:45:09. > :45:10.never understood it would lead to us never winning the Eurovision

:45:10. > :45:12.us never winning the Eurovision us never winning the Eurovision

:45:12. > :45:13.Song Contest again. They all club Song Contest again. They all club

:45:13. > :45:14.Song Contest again. They all club together. It is a political thing,

:45:14. > :45:15.together. It is a political thing, together. It is a political thing,

:45:15. > :45:15.together. It is a political thing, together. It is a political thing,

:45:15. > :45:16.it can be I'm not going to vote for it can be I'm not going to vote for

:45:16. > :45:17.it can be I'm not going to vote for it can be I'm not going to vote for

:45:17. > :45:20.the UK because of this and that. the UK because of this and that.

:45:20. > :45:21.the UK because of this and that. the UK because of this and that.

:45:21. > :45:22.I'm not going to take it personally. I'm not going to take it personally.

:45:22. > :45:26.I'm not going to take it personally. I'm not going to take it personally.

:45:26. > :45:27.I will give it my bloody best shot! I will give it my bloody best shot!

:45:27. > :45:30.I will give it my bloody best shot! Well, just time for some of

:45:30. > :45:31.Well, just time for some of Well, just time for some of

:45:31. > :45:41.tomorrow's front pages now. One tomorrow's front pages now. One

:45:41. > :46:03.

:46:03. > :46:13.That's all from us, we're here That's all from us, we're here

:46:13. > :46:36.

:46:36. > :46:38.That's all from us, we're here Friday promises to be a dull and

:46:38. > :46:39.Friday promises to be a dull and Friday promises to be a dull and

:46:39. > :46:39.cloudy day, with outbreaks of rain cloudy day, with outbreaks of rain

:46:39. > :46:41.cloudy day, with outbreaks of rain affecting north eastern parts of

:46:41. > :46:42.affecting north eastern parts of affecting north eastern parts of

:46:42. > :46:43.the British Isles, another weather the British Isles, another weather

:46:44. > :46:45.the British Isles, another weather system moving up from France to

:46:45. > :46:46.system moving up from France to system moving up from France to

:46:46. > :46:47.potentially bring heavier bursts of potentially bring heavier bursts of

:46:47. > :46:48.potentially bring heavier bursts of rain into the southern part of

:46:48. > :46:50.rain into the southern part of England, particularly for Friday

:46:50. > :46:51.England, particularly for Friday England, particularly for Friday

:46:51. > :46:52.afternoon the along with the damp afternoon the along with the damp

:46:52. > :46:53.afternoon the along with the damp weather in the north-east, strong

:46:53. > :46:54.weather in the north-east, strong weather in the north-east, strong

:46:54. > :46:55.weather in the north-east, strong winds gusting at 30 miles an hour,

:46:55. > :46:55.winds gusting at 30 miles an hour, winds gusting at 30 miles an hour,

:46:55. > :46:57.winds gusting at 30 miles an hour, making it feel cold around the east

:46:57. > :46:58.making it feel cold around the east making it feel cold around the east

:46:58. > :47:00.making it feel cold around the east coast. It look like we will see

:47:00. > :47:00.coast. It look like we will see coast. It look like we will see

:47:00. > :47:03.coast. It look like we will see outbreak of fairly heavy rain for a

:47:03. > :47:04.outbreak of fairly heavy rain for a outbreak of fairly heavy rain for a

:47:04. > :47:05.time, seeping into southern England. time, seeping into southern England.

:47:05. > :47:06.time, seeping into southern England. Across the south west, after

:47:06. > :47:07.Across the south west, after Across the south west, after

:47:07. > :47:09.another murky start to the day, another murky start to the day,

:47:09. > :47:09.brightening up through the brightening up through the

:47:09. > :47:10.brightening up through the afternoon. Wales looks pretty damp

:47:10. > :47:12.afternoon. Wales looks pretty damp afternoon. Wales looks pretty damp

:47:12. > :47:13.through the afternoon. Most of this through the afternoon. Most of this

:47:13. > :47:15.through the afternoon. Most of this rain will be light, particularly

:47:15. > :47:17.rain will be light, particularly affecting eastern areas, something

:47:17. > :47:18.affecting eastern areas, something dryer into Pembrokeshire. In

:47:18. > :47:19.dryer into Pembrokeshire. In dryer into Pembrokeshire. In

:47:19. > :47:20.Northern Ireland it stays damp as Northern Ireland it stays damp as

:47:20. > :47:21.Northern Ireland it stays damp as Northern Ireland it stays damp as

:47:21. > :47:22.well for Antrim and Down. The best well for Antrim and Down. The best

:47:22. > :47:23.well for Antrim and Down. The best well for Antrim and Down. The best

:47:23. > :47:24.of the dry weather in London dery. of the dry weather in London dery.

:47:24. > :47:25.of the dry weather in London dery. of the dry weather in London dery.

:47:25. > :47:26.Even here the odd light shower. To Even here the odd light shower. To

:47:26. > :47:28.Even here the odd light shower. To the North West of Scotland the

:47:28. > :47:30.the North West of Scotland the the North West of Scotland the

:47:30. > :47:32.cloud should break, chances of cloud should break, chances of

:47:32. > :47:42.cloud should break, chances of sunshine, but eastern Scotland wet

:47:42. > :47:51.

:47:51. > :47:52.sunshine, but eastern Scotland wet The wettest weather on Saturday