0:00:08 > 0:00:11$:/STARTFEED. With all the pomp and circumstance of the state, Britain
0:00:11 > 0:00:14said farewell to the first female and most contentious Prime Minister.
0:00:14 > 0:00:19Everyone said it was a distinctly British affair, something that only
0:00:19 > 0:00:25we can do. Why do we do it like this? The rituals of the church,
0:00:25 > 0:00:29whose pews are largely empty, and in the shadow of an empire that no
0:00:29 > 0:00:34longer exists, what does it tell us about ourselves that this is how we
0:00:34 > 0:00:40deal with the fate that awaits us all. El We have assorted members of
0:00:41 > 0:00:44the establishment here to illuminate us.
0:00:44 > 0:00:49Confusion regins in Boston, have the authorities identified a
0:00:49 > 0:00:59suspect? In this case all that glitters is gold. Why has the value
0:00:59 > 0:01:01
0:01:01 > 0:01:06of gold dropped 10% in the last few days?
0:01:06 > 0:01:10It was an impressive send-off. There were flag, there were
0:01:10 > 0:01:15military bands, there was Celestial coral music in a Cathedral filled
0:01:15 > 0:01:22with faces more jowlly, more grey- haired and more frail than when we
0:01:22 > 0:01:27saw them making the weather. Even her enemies agreed it was
0:01:27 > 0:01:32impressive jib, though they may have thought of the cost or whether
0:01:32 > 0:01:42she deserved the obsequies at all. It wasn't an event that told us
0:01:42 > 0:01:43
0:01:43 > 0:01:48much about Margaret Thatcher, but it told us a lot about us.
0:01:48 > 0:01:52Big Ben's last chimes this morning, then the busy world hushed. The
0:01:52 > 0:02:01fever of one life over, Margaret Thatcher's work done. This morning
0:02:01 > 0:02:06Britain and Baroness Thatcher went back in time, the start, a crypt in
0:02:07 > 0:02:16parliament where she entered life in the realm, and into a stately
0:02:16 > 0:02:26funeral. Military, imperial, Christian. When Britain has become
0:02:26 > 0:02:29
0:02:29 > 0:02:33less all those three things. The road rang to brass, but also the
0:02:33 > 0:02:37sound of thinking, people reflecting on her. Few audible
0:02:37 > 0:02:41conclusions. From the parliament of her autumn years, past the law
0:02:41 > 0:02:51courts where as a young mum she trained. There was a bank of modest
0:02:51 > 0:02:57
0:02:57 > 0:03:02applause and some islands of protest. (boos) Then lastly a
0:03:02 > 0:03:12symbol of her youth, St Paul's, the icon of World War II fortitude that
0:03:12 > 0:03:13
0:03:13 > 0:03:18defined a teenage Margaret Thatcher. "you seek his architect", the son
0:03:18 > 0:03:22of Sir Christopher Wren, look around you. As the former Prime
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Minister's body was delivered to the church she would have seen her
0:03:25 > 0:03:35monument, many political generations still, in part, defined
0:03:35 > 0:03:55
0:03:55 > 0:03:59Through hymns and readings, through burial rituals, a society tells
0:03:59 > 0:04:02itself a story about who it thinks it is. The elements today were
0:04:02 > 0:04:12classic fare for a Christian service, but they contained their
0:04:12 > 0:04:13
0:04:13 > 0:04:20messages about who Margaret Thatcher thought she was too.
0:04:20 > 0:04:28on the whole armour of good. That ye may be able to stand against the
0:04:28 > 0:04:37wilds of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood. But
0:04:37 > 0:04:42against principalties, against powers, against the rulers of the
0:04:42 > 0:04:50darkness of this world. Margaret Thatcher wanted the Prime Minister
0:04:50 > 0:04:56of the day to read this. Let not your heart be troubled, ye believe
0:04:56 > 0:05:03in good, believe also in me. In my father's house are many mansions,
0:05:04 > 0:05:13if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for
0:05:14 > 0:05:18
0:05:18 > 0:05:23you. If ritual necessarily see-saw tradition. There was an attempt to
0:05:23 > 0:05:27debunk the myths from friends like this. As she said from the great
0:05:27 > 0:05:33truth we do not achieve happiness or salvation in isolation from each
0:05:33 > 0:05:40other, but as members of society. Her later remark about there being
0:05:40 > 0:05:47no such thing as society has been misunderstood. And refers, in her
0:05:47 > 0:05:50mind, to some impersonal entity to which we attempted to turpbter our
0:05:50 > 0:05:54independence. -- surrender our independence. It appeared to be
0:05:54 > 0:06:04during the sermon, but it may have been just the occasion itself, that
0:06:04 > 0:06:22
0:06:22 > 0:06:26saw the Chancellor of the Exchequer Margaret Thatcher believed herself
0:06:27 > 0:06:30to be framed by war. She was the last of Britain's prime ministers
0:06:30 > 0:06:35born before the Second World War, and she had her battles too.
0:06:35 > 0:06:41Victory in the Falklands saw shaky control over mutiny in cabinet made
0:06:41 > 0:06:51rock solid. As the military is cut back today, does the central
0:06:51 > 0:07:04
0:07:04 > 0:07:08trality to our national occasions As the service drew to a close, the
0:07:08 > 0:07:12Queen accompanied the congregation out to bid a final farewell to one
0:07:12 > 0:07:20of her 12 prime ministers. But also Britain's first female one. It was
0:07:20 > 0:07:23noted that she is unlikely to ever do that again. Beginning with
0:07:23 > 0:07:27Princess Diana's funeral, the Queen Mother's and now Lady Thatcher's,
0:07:27 > 0:07:31with a royal wedding along the way. What do our three funerals and a
0:07:31 > 0:07:34wedding tell us about ourselves. Or an emotional low- controlled nation
0:07:34 > 0:07:44we have become rather emotional. There was no clapping at
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Churchill's funeral. For is it that we are all historians now, phones
0:07:47 > 0:07:52and iPads commemorating occasions just because they K regardless
0:07:52 > 0:07:58today was the first -- they K regardless today was one of the
0:07:59 > 0:08:02first occasions they can. A nation taking refuge in a comforting
0:08:02 > 0:08:08ritual in a time of austerity. Because of what Thatcher stood for
0:08:08 > 0:08:12it wasn't for everyone today. Today we said goodbye to our first female
0:08:12 > 0:08:16Prime Minister, we buried a person and an era too. To try to make
0:08:16 > 0:08:21sense of the ritual, we have created a small cold frame of
0:08:21 > 0:08:29sprouts of the establishment. A Baroness, a professor, and a canon
0:08:29 > 0:08:35and a law Lord and a major general. Giles Fraser, turbulent priest was
0:08:35 > 0:08:41a canon of St Paul's until his resignation in 2011 amid the row
0:08:41 > 0:08:46about the Occupied protests on his doorstep. Lord Dobbs was Chief of
0:08:46 > 0:08:53Staff under a period under Lady Thatcher and went on to write House
0:08:53 > 0:08:57of Cards. Linda Woodhead is a professor at the University of
0:08:57 > 0:09:01Lancaster. And Matthew Sykes knows about pomp and ceremony, he's the
0:09:01 > 0:09:07honourary kur national of the Royal Horse Artillery who accompanied
0:09:07 > 0:09:12Lady Thatcher's coffin this morning. Lady Trumpington I would imagine
0:09:12 > 0:09:15you were at a few funerals in your time. You were in St Paul's today
0:09:15 > 0:09:20what was it like? I thought it was wonderful, I really did. It was a
0:09:20 > 0:09:24sea of people in black. It was an amazing sight. I think they put a
0:09:24 > 0:09:34hell of a strain on her granddaughter, and I thought she
0:09:34 > 0:09:34
0:09:34 > 0:09:38did jolly well. She did a great rendering of those difficult words.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41I thought the Bishop of London was splendid and very funny at one
0:09:41 > 0:09:47point, which was a relief to some of the congregation, me included.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52Who did you think the service was for? Who did I think? What did you
0:09:52 > 0:09:58think it was for, for whose benefit? I think it was a genuine
0:09:58 > 0:10:03feeling that went out. It couldn't have been sparked artificially. In
0:10:03 > 0:10:07point of fact when it did happen I think we do this sort of thing
0:10:07 > 0:10:10better than any other country. did you think of it Giles Fraser?
0:10:10 > 0:10:14The question about who it is for is really interesting, it used to be
0:10:14 > 0:10:17for the dead, now it is for the living. That is true. That sort of
0:10:17 > 0:10:21thing has changed in funerals, funerals used to be about the dead
0:10:21 > 0:10:24person, now it is about how it comes across to the living. I think
0:10:24 > 0:10:28today's funeral was a state occasion and it was the state was
0:10:28 > 0:10:33almost centre stage in it. It was celebrating the establishment in a
0:10:33 > 0:10:38way I felt slightly uncomfortable, the church, the military, the BBC
0:10:38 > 0:10:41all in perfect harmony with each other. I did have a slight sense
0:10:41 > 0:10:45that actually it was slightly ironic that somebody who spent all
0:10:45 > 0:10:51her political life arguing for a small state would actually end up
0:10:51 > 0:10:57having the state as the star of the show at her funeral. You wouldn't
0:10:57 > 0:11:00have enjoyed G 4 also parading? that was a funny joke going around
0:11:00 > 0:11:05about it being privatised. It was a lot of money for the event.
0:11:05 > 0:11:10were there, what did you think? thought it was an extraordinary
0:11:10 > 0:11:13occasion, I think it is the end of an era. I don't know if we will see
0:11:13 > 0:11:18this again apart from a senior royal. I can't see circumstances
0:11:18 > 0:11:21for which another Prime Minister to be sent off in this way because
0:11:21 > 0:11:24prime ministers like Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill are
0:11:24 > 0:11:29very rare indeed. You have to wait a generation or for more those
0:11:29 > 0:11:33buses to come along. It gave Tony Blair an idea or two today?
0:11:33 > 0:11:43might say that but I'm certainly not going to comment on that.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45
0:11:45 > 0:11:49with the plugs. But any way. Inside the church is emphasised how broad
0:11:49 > 0:11:54her reach had been, how many years she had an influence and how big a
0:11:54 > 0:11:57family of those who loved her. at how it was done, it tells us a
0:11:57 > 0:12:02lot about ourselves. You said it was for the people who go on, we
0:12:02 > 0:12:07chose to do it through the military, much of it, why is the military the
0:12:07 > 0:12:11default mechanism? A hangover from the Falklands, sorry.
0:12:11 > 0:12:16involvement of the military in these sorts of occasions has gone
0:12:16 > 0:12:22on for hundreds of years. It is how we do it.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24We are a very different country. still do ceremony very well, as
0:12:24 > 0:12:28Baroness Trumpington, I'm biased, but we do it better than anybody
0:12:28 > 0:12:31else in the world. All other countries do the same thing. They
0:12:31 > 0:12:36all have ceremony and they all involve the military. With the
0:12:36 > 0:12:40greatest of respect, let me put it frankly, you are the honourary
0:12:40 > 0:12:45Colonel of a unit whose main function is running around in
0:12:45 > 0:12:50London parks making hangs on cermonial occasion. Is that not
0:12:50 > 0:12:55true? That is more or less an unfair summary of what The King's
0:12:55 > 0:12:59Troop does? Yes, but every single person in The King's Troop is a
0:12:59 > 0:13:04soldier first and foremost. What is it for? And sailors and airmen.
0:13:04 > 0:13:08What is it for? What do we have the Armed Forces for? We know what the
0:13:08 > 0:13:12Armed Forces are for. What is the representation of the state through
0:13:12 > 0:13:21the military on an occasion like this about? It is about celebrating
0:13:21 > 0:13:25what we do as a country. We, The King's Troop artillery, we are not
0:13:25 > 0:13:29the only cermonial troops, we have the Household Cavalry, it is part
0:13:29 > 0:13:32of the bands of the nation. It speaks out around the world. It is
0:13:32 > 0:13:36some of the best advertising for this country we could have had.
0:13:36 > 0:13:40Surely there is a better purpose to our existence than advertising
0:13:40 > 0:13:44ourselves for the tourists? We have to look at the tourism figure, we
0:13:44 > 0:13:49are out there in a competitive world. This attracts dozens and
0:13:49 > 0:13:54thousands. This was a sacred ritual apparently? It is an expression of
0:13:54 > 0:13:58who we are and what we are about. Why we are so attractive. This is
0:13:58 > 0:14:03somebody dying and going to meet their maker, it is not a PR
0:14:03 > 0:14:08exercise. It is not a PR exercise but a message to the rest of the
0:14:08 > 0:14:14world. That sounds like PR. have a narrow view of PR. It is a
0:14:15 > 0:14:19ritual, rituals do something. speak as an antthro polygamist.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23Rituals are a framing mechanism and focusing lens, they give us time to
0:14:23 > 0:14:26get our emotions together, to reflect, to stand back and see the
0:14:26 > 0:14:31significance of something, to feel things you wouldn't otherwise feel.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35To put things into perspective. All cultures need rituals, we do it
0:14:35 > 0:14:39extremely well. Actually it wasn't just tradition. There are elements
0:14:39 > 0:14:45of innovation in that. Britain is the great ritual innovator. We
0:14:45 > 0:14:50change our rituals the whole time. What was it about today's ritual?
0:14:50 > 0:14:54The ceremony Monday was incredibly contempry it didn't do the ritual
0:14:54 > 0:15:00things, talking about resurrection, it talked about her atoms being
0:15:00 > 0:15:04caught up in the cloud of good. clergy talk within the age? If you
0:15:04 > 0:15:09look at the Book of Common Prayer Protestant funerals are about the
0:15:09 > 0:15:17repentance of sin, we didn't have very much of that. There were too
0:15:17 > 0:15:21many sinners! The place was full of them! It is really hard to do a
0:15:21 > 0:15:25ritual well, because it has to be entirely appropriate and feel
0:15:25 > 0:15:29genuine to the occasion. That felt genuine to her. We didn't do it
0:15:29 > 0:15:34like for the royal wedding or Diana. We are good at getting the tone
0:15:34 > 0:15:39right for the particular occasion. They are not exactly equivalent
0:15:39 > 0:15:42instances. I mean the Diana funeral was totally different. That is what
0:15:42 > 0:15:45I mean, we are good at getting the ritual right for the particular
0:15:45 > 0:15:48event. It was a different atmosphere for a totally different
0:15:48 > 0:15:52situation, which had very little regard for the family. The royal
0:15:52 > 0:15:56wedding, the lijics, this country is on -- Olympics, the country is
0:15:56 > 0:16:01on a run as far as these things are concerned. If you look at something
0:16:01 > 0:16:06like the Olympics, the message there was much less military, it
0:16:06 > 0:16:11was more joyful. This was a funeral afterall much that was a public
0:16:11 > 0:16:15sporting event. They are different and it looked much more 21st
0:16:15 > 0:16:19century that. You would agree I'm sure? Funerals are changing. Normal
0:16:19 > 0:16:24people's funerals, over half now have a tone of celebration rather
0:16:24 > 0:16:32than morning. There is a lot of joking, there is hymns less common
0:16:32 > 0:16:39than popular songs, Always Look On The Bright Side of Life. That
0:16:39 > 0:16:42wasn't reflected in this service, but that is inappropriate for
0:16:42 > 0:16:47Margaret Thatcher. I'm doing a funeral tomorrow and they are going
0:16:47 > 0:16:50to have Waterloo Sunset. What will you choose for you one? A simple
0:16:50 > 0:16:55one, it is about you going to meet your maker, a person in a coffin
0:16:55 > 0:17:00going to meet their maker. I think all of this pomp and stuff is a
0:17:00 > 0:17:06form of misdirection. You are not Mrs Thatcher. No I'm not thank
0:17:06 > 0:17:10goodness. You could aspire? could! Are you worried any of you
0:17:10 > 0:17:14about some of the imperial overtones, we are no longer an
0:17:14 > 0:17:18imperial nation except at a minor level. Does that trouble you, I
0:17:18 > 0:17:24imagine it probably did? It was a work of nostalgia, so much of it
0:17:24 > 0:17:28seemed to be a work of nostalgia. All funerals. What are funerals if
0:17:28 > 0:17:31they are not works of nostalgia, that is what we sawed today. A
0:17:31 > 0:17:35woman who learned her politics hiding from the bombs under the
0:17:35 > 0:17:39able in Grantham during the blitz, during her homework and listening
0:17:39 > 0:17:42to the speeches of Winston Churchill. This is a former
0:17:42 > 0:17:47nostalgia going back even before then, that is not what a funeral is
0:17:47 > 0:17:51for. A funeral is an occasion in which somebody goes to meet their
0:17:51 > 0:17:55maker. It is not about trying to celebrate and rehearse all the
0:17:55 > 0:18:01values of the state, which is what this ended up egg being.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05understand why you are grinding the axe you are -- Ended up being.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10understand why you are grinding the axe you are. For theological
0:18:10 > 0:18:17reasons. Because you are a believer. We were in church here. Could you
0:18:17 > 0:18:20have a secular funeral which had no military or imperial overstones
0:18:20 > 0:18:24nowadays? A secular funeral is hard to do you end up speaking nice
0:18:24 > 0:18:27things about the person who died you end up doing this. I didn't
0:18:27 > 0:18:32agree with Mrs Thatcher at all, I would have been perfectly happy it
0:18:32 > 0:18:38take the service, it is not about whether or not you agreed with them
0:18:38 > 0:18:44or not, it is about going to meet your maker. A secular funeral is
0:18:44 > 0:18:49harder. They are ghastly. I went to one, a learned and extremely
0:18:49 > 0:18:53eminent professor died, you went to the service and each person spoke
0:18:53 > 0:18:59and it was the most utter rubbish you have ever heard in your life.
0:18:59 > 0:19:06And it had no sort of Centrepoint. I think the whole point of a
0:19:06 > 0:19:10service really is to bring in a little bit about the normal
0:19:10 > 0:19:15thinking of ordinary people like me. Can you imagine a big state
0:19:15 > 0:19:20occasion that did not have a military expression? I suppose I
0:19:20 > 0:19:26could imagine one, but why would we not want to have the military
0:19:26 > 0:19:30present. Because they play such a marginal role in our lives? I think
0:19:30 > 0:19:33they play an important role in your lives. Everyone agrees the military
0:19:33 > 0:19:39is important, but they are a minority pursuit in this country
0:19:39 > 0:19:43now. The military experience is not. You can't say that. It was
0:19:43 > 0:19:46generalised in the era of conscription. We may have reached
0:19:46 > 0:19:53the point where there are more people in the BBC than the Armed
0:19:53 > 0:19:55Forces. Only a question of time I'm sure. That doesn't make it a
0:19:55 > 0:19:59minority role, it is extremely important role for the security of
0:19:59 > 0:20:03the country. I'm not sure I understood what you meant earlier
0:20:03 > 0:20:06about the imperial, what was imperial about today? I didn't see
0:20:07 > 0:20:11anything imperial at all. Giles Fraser is raising his eyebrows,
0:20:11 > 0:20:16explain? It may be difficult. I though everything about it was. I
0:20:16 > 0:20:20thought so much about it was a celebration of the values of empire
0:20:20 > 0:20:24and establishment and so forth. You know I'm not necessarily condemning
0:20:24 > 0:20:28all of that, I'm just trying to say that at the heart of a funeral is a
0:20:28 > 0:20:31very, very simple thing. To use it as an occasion for celebrating all
0:20:31 > 0:20:36those value is not necessarily the right thing. Even in the church
0:20:36 > 0:20:39there is ceremony. Particularly, we are best at it. We follow a common
0:20:39 > 0:20:43book of prayer and a service that is a framework that has been
0:20:43 > 0:20:51described for us. This is a framework for a public event.
0:20:51 > 0:20:56will give you one example, the Gurkha pallbearer. Rituals are
0:20:56 > 0:21:00necessarily about power. They empower those who take part. They
0:21:00 > 0:21:06empower the ones who celebrate and the person you are focusing on. It
0:21:06 > 0:21:09is a symbolic way of marking that. In a way Mrs Thatcher is a
0:21:09 > 0:21:13superhuman figure, she's a mythological figure, like Diana and
0:21:13 > 0:21:15the Queen. We have these amazing women. What a nonsense it would
0:21:15 > 0:21:20have been for Margaret Thatcher to be buried without a military
0:21:20 > 0:21:23presence. Afterall her Premiership was very much about military
0:21:23 > 0:21:27adventure. Whether or not you like it. That is part of the fact. You
0:21:27 > 0:21:31can't avoid it and cover things up simply because it happens to upset
0:21:31 > 0:21:35a few demonstrators. People were applauding from the moment that
0:21:35 > 0:21:40coffin left Westminster until it got to the church. The applause was
0:21:40 > 0:21:44very interesting. It is not really a common thing, you wouldn't have
0:21:44 > 0:21:48supposed it to be a common English reaction at the funeral, we were
0:21:48 > 0:21:51told it didn't happen at Churchill's funeral. But it was a
0:21:51 > 0:21:58spontaneous reaction. People were genuinely excited. My theory is
0:21:58 > 0:22:04because people don't wear hat any more. What? In the old days, no, in
0:22:04 > 0:22:10the old days even you may have read of people doving their hats to a
0:22:10 > 0:22:15coffin -- doffing their hats as it passed. We don't have that so we
0:22:15 > 0:22:19clap. You do things with your body, you have to do something dramatic,
0:22:19 > 0:22:24I agree. This whole debate is slightly misplaced, because death
0:22:24 > 0:22:30is the one thing, it is the one thing somebody else can't do for
0:22:30 > 0:22:34you, it is a point Hiedinger made, it is a singular, private
0:22:34 > 0:22:39individual. It is about one person, the idea it becomes this huge great
0:22:39 > 0:22:43big public thing misses that very, very essential thing theologically
0:22:43 > 0:22:48speaking you preparing to stand before good and meet judgment in
0:22:48 > 0:22:51that very old fashioned speak. This is not, and when we start and end
0:22:51 > 0:22:55up talking about the mill and all the other things and the
0:22:55 > 0:22:59establishment and the bishop eating duck pate in the way which the
0:22:59 > 0:23:05establishment talks to itself. I wanted there to be slightly more
0:23:05 > 0:23:08about things about forgiveness and about those last rites. That might
0:23:08 > 0:23:14be fine for your funeral but Margaret Thatcher wrote her own
0:23:14 > 0:23:18funeral service so I understand. This was all about Margaret
0:23:18 > 0:23:21Thatcher. It is about myth. I think that is exactly right it was about
0:23:21 > 0:23:25Margaret Thatcher. What don't you think? I don't think she wrote her
0:23:25 > 0:23:28own funeral at all. I don't thing her mind worked in that kind of way.
0:23:28 > 0:23:38Damn it I knew her as well as most people.
0:23:38 > 0:23:55
0:23:55 > 0:23:58Don't you come back here with your Know among the various foreign
0:23:58 > 0:24:02bigwigs attending Margaret Thatcher's funeral today was the
0:24:02 > 0:24:04Prime Minister of Italy, Mario Monti, Mr Monti got given the job
0:24:04 > 0:24:08when Silvio Berlusconi left to spend more time with his lawyers.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12Mr Monti is one of the grand old men of the European political class
0:24:12 > 0:24:16and therefore you might expect him to be pretty cool on Mrs T. He
0:24:17 > 0:24:26isn't though. I hooked up with him after the funeral. Prime Minister
0:24:27 > 0:24:28
0:24:28 > 0:24:32what was it that you admired about Mrs Thatcher? Clarity of vision,
0:24:32 > 0:24:39sometimes oversimplified but a political leader needs that
0:24:39 > 0:24:46oversimplification. Stern determination. That's about it. But
0:24:46 > 0:24:52it is a lot. I have heard you sometimes described as Italy's
0:24:52 > 0:24:57Thatcher! Do you recognise the characterisation? To some modest
0:24:57 > 0:25:02extent yes, because well I have always been convinced and I tried
0:25:02 > 0:25:09to practice now in Government for one-and-a-half years, that some
0:25:09 > 0:25:14principles of the Thatcher model of governance were good. For example
0:25:14 > 0:25:24not to allow too much room for corporatisim. What do you think you
0:25:24 > 0:25:34most learned from her? The space to be given or to be created for well
0:25:34 > 0:25:34
0:25:35 > 0:25:41functioning markets. Which means the containment of oligotistic
0:25:41 > 0:25:48powers of union and business. The notion that market needs to be as
0:25:48 > 0:25:54wide as possible. Now Mrs Thatcher is not credited having been a
0:25:54 > 0:25:59strong supporter of integration. I have many criticisms to her in that
0:25:59 > 0:26:03respect. She was the biggest promoter of one key thing of
0:26:03 > 0:26:09European integration, that is the single market. Wasn't she right
0:26:09 > 0:26:13about the limits of national feeling that we don't live in a
0:26:13 > 0:26:18Europe where there is a feeling common among all the peoples of
0:26:18 > 0:26:20Europe that there is a desire for a European state, but people feel an
0:26:20 > 0:26:25identification with their own country and it will be a very, very
0:26:25 > 0:26:29long time before they feel an identification with the bigger
0:26:29 > 0:26:35political entity. One must be cautious because if that is the
0:26:35 > 0:26:40criteria on what just simply is what people want in terms of
0:26:40 > 0:26:46geographical identification, not in Margaret Thatcher's time, but now
0:26:47 > 0:26:56in many of our countries. People would like to have a sub-national
0:26:57 > 0:26:57
0:26:57 > 0:27:03identification, regional or you know populistic localism is on the
0:27:03 > 0:27:07increase, and should we accommodate for that and effect a company
0:27:07 > 0:27:13process of actual European disintegration. I'm not sure.
0:27:13 > 0:27:18in her analysis, this sense of where people feel they belong was
0:27:18 > 0:27:22at odds with the scheme, the great conception that most of the
0:27:22 > 0:27:26European political class had. That was one of the key things that her
0:27:26 > 0:27:32analysis stood upon. In that respect you were on the opposite
0:27:32 > 0:27:37side of the fence to her, weren't you? Mainly the European
0:27:37 > 0:27:46distinguished politicians were opposite to her. Actually I have
0:27:46 > 0:27:53always been eccentric in policy thinking in Europe. I'm deeply pro-
0:27:53 > 0:28:00integrationist, but giving huge emphasis to the market integration,
0:28:00 > 0:28:06to the single market. Less to other aspect. So for example this is very
0:28:06 > 0:28:12recent, one year ago, there were debates in the European Council on
0:28:12 > 0:28:22what to make of the single market in terms of an instrument for
0:28:22 > 0:28:24
0:28:24 > 0:28:29growth in Europe. I can say that David Cameron and I were the two
0:28:29 > 0:28:34consistently stronger advocate of achieving more single markets in
0:28:34 > 0:28:40Europe. This is not necessarily a French attitude for example. When
0:28:40 > 0:28:47you heard her anxieties about the power of reunited Germany and the
0:28:47 > 0:28:54geographical position in the centre of Europe and the now enormous
0:28:55 > 0:28:59economic power, do you share any of those worries? To some extent and
0:28:59 > 0:29:03that is why as an Italian and continental European I have always
0:29:03 > 0:29:07thought it would be good to have Britain firm low and solidly within
0:29:07 > 0:29:11the European construction. Which needs -- firmly and solidly within
0:29:11 > 0:29:16the European construction which needs a balance of powers not an
0:29:16 > 0:29:23excess of powers by anybody. Do you think she was right to worry about
0:29:23 > 0:29:31the position and influence of a powerful Germany? Yes. But that was
0:29:31 > 0:29:35a bit in my view of a retrenchment attitude. If Britain, since her
0:29:35 > 0:29:45times and then subsequently would have been able to really be at the
0:29:45 > 0:29:48
0:29:48 > 0:29:54core of Europe, we wouldn't have seen that asymmetric increase of
0:29:54 > 0:29:58powers of Germany. From where you sit looking at Britain now, and
0:29:58 > 0:30:08looking at the eurozone, do you foresow a day when Britain might be
0:30:08 > 0:30:14
0:30:14 > 0:30:18in the eurozone? It doesn't look to be imminent. You can say that
0:30:18 > 0:30:21again! Much confusion in Boston tonight, which even included media
0:30:21 > 0:30:26reports that a suspect had been arrested in connection with the two
0:30:26 > 0:30:30bombings of the marathon a couple of days ago. The reports were later
0:30:30 > 0:30:37denied, then there was talk of a full briefing on what was happening.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41A time of set and then everyone was told had had been postponed
0:30:41 > 0:30:45indefinitely. The one certainty is the President is expected in the
0:30:45 > 0:30:51city tomorrow to join a religious service. What is the news then
0:30:51 > 0:30:57Mark? Well, as you were saying Jeremy this is a day in which the
0:30:57 > 0:31:03inquiry has insisted that it has made substantial progress. We
0:31:03 > 0:31:07understand that this centres around an individual who was isolated in
0:31:07 > 0:31:12CCTV or security camera pictures, taken from a department store
0:31:12 > 0:31:17opposite the bomb area. Now this individual was seen to place a bag,
0:31:17 > 0:31:20he was identified, this is what sparked the frenzy of speculation
0:31:20 > 0:31:24today, including the idea that a person might be about to be brought
0:31:24 > 0:31:29into the court in order to be charged. That all proved to be
0:31:29 > 0:31:34false. The authorities still insist they have made progress and they
0:31:34 > 0:31:39have identified this individual. But the postponement of an FBI
0:31:39 > 0:31:44press conference here this evening cost doubt even on that achievement.
0:31:44 > 0:31:48There was a scare even at the White House today I believe? There was.
0:31:48 > 0:31:52There was a package identified and it was then confirmed by the
0:31:52 > 0:31:59authorities that it contained ricin, the poison. This is one of those,
0:31:59 > 0:32:06if you like, do-it-yourself- biological weapons that can be
0:32:06 > 0:32:10cooked up at home and it is toxic. It follows the senting of ricin to
0:32:10 > 0:32:17a senator, that was also confirmed by the authority. There do seem to
0:32:17 > 0:32:21be a lot of security incidents in the country, in Oklahoma the
0:32:21 > 0:32:25courthouse where the suspect was due to be arraigned was evacuated
0:32:25 > 0:32:30this afternoon. You see signs across the United States of a fair
0:32:30 > 0:32:37bit of jumpiness, people responding to suspect parcels and bags left on
0:32:37 > 0:32:43their own. It has made for a jittery atmosphere hereed today.
0:32:43 > 0:32:49It is mine all mine, actually it isn't. We borrowed it for a few
0:32:49 > 0:32:55hours. These ten bars are worth between about �300,000 or around
0:32:55 > 0:32:58that. The interesting thing is that last Friday they were worth
0:32:58 > 0:33:03�340,000. It is still a huge lot more than Gordon Brown manage when
0:33:03 > 0:33:08he sold off much of the national reserve at the lowest price in 20
0:33:08 > 0:33:11years. Since then it soared in value as a supposedly safer place
0:33:11 > 0:33:21to keep your money. In recent days people seem to have fallen a bit
0:33:21 > 0:33:22
0:33:22 > 0:33:28out of love with it, why? Some people life like to live in or
0:33:28 > 0:33:34drive their wealth. Others like this man, from India, like to wear
0:33:34 > 0:33:43their's. This garment has a value of $250,000, it was worth that much
0:33:43 > 0:33:51last week. It might be worth a paltry $2020,000. The shirt appears
0:33:51 > 0:33:58to be gauche for you and me, but he's in good company. From Goldie
0:33:58 > 0:34:03to lady GagGa's wheelchair, golds been across the centuries. It is
0:34:03 > 0:34:10always seen as a safe haven, place to store wealth in the event of
0:34:10 > 0:34:17economic crises. The price of gold was pretty uneventful up to 2007,
0:34:17 > 0:34:27hovering at $350 an ounce. When the shine came off global banks and the
0:34:27 > 0:34:27
0:34:27 > 0:34:35single currency, it rose 216%, reaching a record high of $1,600
0:34:35 > 0:34:41dollars. It has been a retreat ever since. It lost 9% on Monday alone,
0:34:41 > 0:34:44its biggest-ever one-day fall. So why has gold taken a cold shower.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48Many people feel it was overpriced in the first place and needed a
0:34:48 > 0:34:52correction. Another reason iss rising prices or inflation. Gold
0:34:52 > 0:34:56was always seen as protection against that. But of late, global
0:34:56 > 0:35:00inflation has been tame. Then there is the optimistic reason, apart
0:35:00 > 0:35:05from Europe, the global economy is starting to recover. Gold may
0:35:05 > 0:35:11longer be needed as much as a safe haven. As for the trigger for the
0:35:11 > 0:35:16most recent gold sell-off, the eurozone might be to blame again.
0:35:16 > 0:35:22An EU report suggested that tiny Cyprus may have to sell reserves to
0:35:22 > 0:35:28pay debts. While Cyprus's 14 tonnes of bullion are negligible. A
0:35:28 > 0:35:34potentially fire sale of gold of equally troubled but reserve rich
0:35:34 > 0:35:38Portugal, Spain or Italy, has spooked the market. Italy with two-
0:35:38 > 0:35:42and-a-half thousand tonnes is the world's largest. Gold went too high
0:35:42 > 0:35:46in the first place, it was a function of that mad panic of three
0:35:46 > 0:35:49or four years ago when people thought that the world was coming
0:35:50 > 0:35:54to an end, there would never be a recovery, there would probably be
0:35:55 > 0:35:58war. It got out of hand. The second reason is, I think, over the last
0:35:58 > 0:36:02three to four month people have started today realise that actually
0:36:02 > 0:36:08the world economy is recovering. The conspiracy theorists have, you
0:36:08 > 0:36:12guessed it, a rival theory for the big sell-off. Rumours have
0:36:12 > 0:36:19circulate that a massive short bet was placed against gold last week
0:36:19 > 0:36:23that forced prices down. If 500 tonnes or 16 million ounces had
0:36:23 > 0:36:29been sold short, when then the gold price fall was artificial and gold
0:36:29 > 0:36:32could resume upwards. It is just a blip. I don't see any factors that
0:36:32 > 0:36:38affect the fundamentals for owning gold and the prices to keep on
0:36:38 > 0:36:43rising. The macro economy hasn't fixed itself, even though we hear a
0:36:43 > 0:36:47few per cent here and there on GDP. People see the money in the bank
0:36:47 > 0:36:51being devalued, currencies are debased through quanative easing
0:36:51 > 0:36:56and other measures. I don't see that the man on the street thinks
0:36:56 > 0:37:00the economy is fixed and he doesn't have to worry about money in the
0:37:00 > 0:37:05banks. In the era of cutback, perhaps Britain should sell off
0:37:05 > 0:37:14some of its gold reserves. Alas there is not much else to sell.
0:37:14 > 0:37:19That is because between 1999 and 200 2jorbd sold off half of
0:37:19 > 0:37:24Britain's reserves, as $275 an aounce. If the Government had wait
0:37:24 > 0:37:28-- an ounce. If the Government had waited ten years they could have
0:37:28 > 0:37:38sold it for seven-times the price. Oh how the current Chancellor could
0:37:38 > 0:37:41
0:37:41 > 0:37:47have used �16 in today's prices. Sadly these aren't hours, they are
0:37:47 > 0:37:50on loan from BullionByPost. The world's central banks have been the
0:37:50 > 0:37:55largest losers from the gold price fall. It has been the sustained
0:37:55 > 0:37:57printing of new money, or QE, which central banks, that forced many
0:37:57 > 0:38:03investors to buy gold in the first place.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06We are joined now by a true believer in gold, the financial
0:38:06 > 0:38:11commentator Max Keiser and the gold sceptic, Daniel Knowles, from the
0:38:11 > 0:38:15economist. Are you buying or selling? I'm a buyer, a big buyer,
0:38:15 > 0:38:20very bullish on gold. If you look at the context of the sell-off, it
0:38:20 > 0:38:25doesn't change the story of gold, I'm a boir. That implies you think
0:38:25 > 0:38:28-- A buyer. That implies you think it will not only recover but
0:38:28 > 0:38:33carrying on going? Absolutely. If you look at what happened in the
0:38:33 > 0:38:38last couple of days. It started in Japan. Gold reached a 40-year high
0:38:38 > 0:38:41in yen terms. That set alarm bells bringing in central banks around
0:38:41 > 0:38:46the world. They are trying to manage their currencies against
0:38:46 > 0:38:51gold. Gold is a barometer that tells them they are doing a bad job.
0:38:51 > 0:38:57Once gold spike up in this way, panic bells rang and they went
0:38:57 > 0:39:01after gold. Stkpwhrp explain this to us. We a-- Explain this to us,
0:39:01 > 0:39:06we abandoned the gold standard years ago? The only reason it has
0:39:06 > 0:39:11value is it always has, people buy it because other people buy it. It
0:39:11 > 0:39:18has uses in jewellery, but for the most part it is an investment that
0:39:18 > 0:39:23is a bet on civilisation collapse. Looking at the gold standard
0:39:23 > 0:39:27question since 2009 central banks have been buyers of gold for the
0:39:27 > 0:39:31first time in decades. They don't trust each other. Cyprus are
0:39:31 > 0:39:34talking about selling their gold, although there is not a formal gold
0:39:34 > 0:39:38standard, there is an informal gold standard. The central banks are
0:39:38 > 0:39:43saying the only way to keep the price parity with the other
0:39:43 > 0:39:48currencies is by keeping the price of gold down. We saw it on Friday,
0:39:48 > 0:39:52500 tonnes of paper gold sold, panic selling. We have some over
0:39:52 > 0:40:00there, never go anywhere without it, that is just a bit of shiny
0:40:00 > 0:40:04mettleia. That is all it is? are the central banks tripping over
0:40:04 > 0:40:07themselves to buy gold they don't trust each other. It is a
0:40:07 > 0:40:11conspiracy theory. Last year more than ever before hundreds and
0:40:11 > 0:40:17hundreds of tonnes, I tell you two countries in particular interested
0:40:17 > 0:40:22in gold are Russia and China. Because they see that in the US.
0:40:22 > 0:40:28This is not a story, it is not central banks selling it. They are
0:40:28 > 0:40:31boiing it. It is not central banks selling it. The thing that has been
0:40:31 > 0:40:35driving gold up is things like exchange traded funds. People have
0:40:35 > 0:40:39been seeing the fact that gold is going up and they are buying it as
0:40:39 > 0:40:42an investment. Buying it as a speculative thing. There are all
0:40:42 > 0:40:47sorts of financial innovations that allow you to buy gold in your
0:40:47 > 0:40:53pension fund and all of a sudden people are panicking. The big sell-
0:40:53 > 0:40:59offs have been privately held gold. The lines outside gold buying shops
0:40:59 > 0:41:04are long. People are taking advantage of the discount and
0:41:04 > 0:41:10buying it. But there is those rushing to sell T the great big
0:41:10 > 0:41:13drop has not been caused by banks. Tell me why is it a good way of
0:41:13 > 0:41:18storing wealth, why do people believe it to be a way of storing
0:41:18 > 0:41:21wealth? There is not very much of it. It is quite easy to carry round.
0:41:21 > 0:41:28A block like that we have over there is worth several thousand
0:41:28 > 0:41:32pound. You can divide it up and it is easily measurable. Historically
0:41:32 > 0:41:38there are good reasons why it is currency. As a civilisation we have
0:41:38 > 0:41:42moved past that. The central banks and the two too big to fail banks
0:41:42 > 0:41:45don't trust each other, that is why they are not lending into the
0:41:45 > 0:41:50market place. They want to hoard the cash. The British Government is
0:41:50 > 0:41:53in quanative easing and the banks are hoarding the cash, they are not
0:41:53 > 0:41:57lending to the market, they don't trust them. The balance sheet of
0:41:57 > 0:42:02the too big to fail banks are horrible and they require another
0:42:03 > 0:42:10huge bail out. They are looking to buy gold to hedge themselves of
0:42:10 > 0:42:15what they see as an emerging crisis. Is it a bet on collapse? It is an
0:42:15 > 0:42:22asset that has no counter party risks, all the other banks do. The
0:42:22 > 0:42:26balance sheets from the big two of the four big banks are highly
0:42:26 > 0:42:31questionable. There is objective fact we can fod in here. If you
0:42:31 > 0:42:35live in a society -- feed in here. If you live in a society where a
0:42:35 > 0:42:41bank is ordered by a Government not to pay out money that is your money,
0:42:41 > 0:42:46may not be allowed to bring it back to you without applying a surcharge,
0:42:46 > 0:42:50then of course gold becomes attractive? If I lived in
0:42:50 > 0:42:54Afghanistan in 1979 and I was leaving and the Soviet tanks were
0:42:54 > 0:42:57raiding. If I lived in Germany in 1939. I don't believe it is
0:42:57 > 0:43:03happening, it is happening in Cyprus. I don't believe this
0:43:03 > 0:43:07argument that Europe is about to collapse. This man is a paper bug,
0:43:08 > 0:43:10he believes in any paper but he doesn't see the reason. Let as
0:43:10 > 0:43:16address the question about the security people feel about money?
0:43:16 > 0:43:20It goes up in times of people being less trusting an Government. In the
0:43:20 > 0:43:24last few years as the recession has hit there have been reasons to
0:43:24 > 0:43:29worry about the state of financial system. That has pushed it up. We
0:43:29 > 0:43:33have had five years now, the euro still hasn't collapsed. These have
0:43:33 > 0:43:36been overplayed. Do you understand leaving m this whole economic
0:43:36 > 0:43:43question about banks aside for a second. What is it about gold, the
0:43:43 > 0:43:50foal of gold, the look of gold, the luster of the stuff that appeals so
0:43:50 > 0:43:55lovely to us? It is a shiney matter. It goes back to Aristotle who
0:43:55 > 0:44:00declared gold is suitable for money. It is simply the financial value,
0:44:00 > 0:44:06its transactional value. It is not to do with anything intrinsic to
0:44:06 > 0:44:10the colour or feel? This is the amazing point you hear in debates
0:44:10 > 0:44:17like this, they will say, especially on this network that
0:44:17 > 0:44:22gold has no instrinsic value, yet the very essence of gold is the
0:44:22 > 0:44:26intrinsic value. It has come out of the ground? That is because it was
0:44:26 > 0:44:30capped. They will never say they won't accept gold but they might
0:44:30 > 0:44:36say they won't accept the British pounds or American dollars. They
0:44:36 > 0:44:44will take gold, it has value. is not because it has intrinsic
0:44:44 > 0:44:51value, it is because the unit has value. It has rarity, sparesity.
0:44:51 > 0:44:56is social constructed by, as any currency is. Here is the British
0:44:56 > 0:45:01pound the value is being debased every single day. The British pound
0:45:01 > 0:45:08has got a lot more valuable relative to gold. Is that why
0:45:08 > 0:45:11prices are up 8%. (both speak at once) There is obviously something
0:45:11 > 0:45:15in the water tonight, I don't know what it is. Thank you all very much,
0:45:15 > 0:45:19both of you. It seems like about 12 of you, but thank you both very
0:45:19 > 0:45:29much. Apparently they want me to read you out tomorrow morning's
0:45:29 > 0:45:42
0:45:42 > 0:45:52front pages. I can't think why it That's enough from us, Gavin will
0:45:52 > 0:46:19
0:46:19 > 0:46:24$:/STARTFEED. Good evening, a real buffeting from the wind during the
0:46:24 > 0:46:30night. Heavy rain crossing many north western areas, still with us
0:46:30 > 0:46:34us first thing, Very gusty indeed in northern and the Pennine. Then
0:46:34 > 0:46:38sunshine and showers. Those showers starting across northern and
0:46:38 > 0:46:42western areas, migrating east with time. Hail and thunder in those
0:46:42 > 0:46:45showers, a gusty wind going on. It will be fresher during the day on
0:46:45 > 0:46:49Thursday across southern and eastern areas compared with the day
0:46:49 > 0:46:52just gone. Showers hanging around across the south west of England
0:46:52 > 0:47:02into Wales and the afternoon. Certain low a very wet start for
0:47:02 > 0:47:03
0:47:03 > 0:47:07some of us here first thing in the morning. Simply across the country.
0:47:07 > 0:47:10Wet and windy through the night and to start on Thursday. Sunshine and
0:47:10 > 0:47:15showers, but more persistent rain coming across the north and west.
0:47:15 > 0:47:20What about the outlooks a we head through Thursday and Friday across
0:47:20 > 0:47:25the northern half of the UK. Friday looks much dryer and brighter but
0:47:25 > 0:47:28it will start on a chilly night with frost in the North West. The