0:00:02 > 0:00:08Tonight, the murder that shocked the country, shook up the criminal
0:00:08 > 0:00:14justice system and resulted as being institutionally racist, now
0:00:14 > 0:00:1720 years on from the killing of Steven Lawrence, we look at what
0:00:17 > 0:00:21has changed. The police are the people you go to when you are lost,
0:00:21 > 0:00:25the police are the nice people who will help you on the street. But
0:00:25 > 0:00:28after you have experienced stop- and-search your perception of them
0:00:28 > 0:00:32changes. We will hear from the Metropolitan Police and ask how
0:00:32 > 0:00:37British society and our views of race have changed. Also tonight, we
0:00:37 > 0:00:47have the very latest on the Boston bombings, the FBI have said they
0:00:47 > 0:00:47
0:00:47 > 0:00:51have identified two suspects. And it has taken 118 years. But now the
0:00:51 > 0:00:55American Marin Alsop will be the first woman to conduct that great
0:00:55 > 0:01:05British institution, the Last Night of the Proms. So why are there so
0:01:05 > 0:01:05
0:01:05 > 0:01:15few women conductors in top orchestras. We remember the artist
0:01:15 > 0:01:15
0:01:16 > 0:01:19who designed Pink Floyd's album covers.
0:01:19 > 0:01:25It was the moment that was supposed to change hout police in Britain
0:01:25 > 0:01:28look and behaviour, a moment that shocked the realities of racism.
0:01:28 > 0:01:34The murder of Stephen Lawrence 20 years ago next week saw a black
0:01:34 > 0:01:37teenager killed because of the colour of his skin. It also saw the
0:01:37 > 0:01:40Macpherson Inquiry into the competence of the police at the
0:01:40 > 0:01:44time. And the Metropolitan Police was accused of institutional racism.
0:01:44 > 0:01:49We want to devote a large part of the programme to explore what has
0:01:49 > 0:01:51changed in our institutions and society in those 20 years. First is
0:01:51 > 0:02:01some voices giving their answers and observations on relations
0:02:01 > 0:02:02
0:02:02 > 0:02:09between the police and part of the communities they serve.
0:02:09 > 0:02:17I don't feel the police are on my side. The police have almost
0:02:17 > 0:02:21severed their ties with us. They are not trusted and so the police
0:02:21 > 0:02:25will be expecting operation, but you don't co-operate with people
0:02:25 > 0:02:28you don't trust. If you have never had positive interactions with the
0:02:28 > 0:02:37police and you can't necessarily trust them, why should I or anyone
0:02:38 > 0:02:42else put my trust in you? There are a lot of good police officers, I
0:02:42 > 0:02:50have come across quite a few myself. I have also come across some who
0:02:50 > 0:02:53abuse their powers. I believe one of the things that changed the
0:02:53 > 0:03:01relationship between the and the community is that they were ready
0:03:01 > 0:03:08to listen. Le # I went to the house # Where I was.
0:03:08 > 0:03:16I was at university when Stephen was murdered. I identified with him
0:03:16 > 0:03:23because it absolutely could have been me.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27It took the experience of black communities and part of what were
0:03:27 > 0:03:32very often private conversations about how those communities felt
0:03:32 > 0:03:42about the police and it took the lid off that and showed it to white
0:03:42 > 0:03:51
0:03:52 > 0:03:56society. In such a way that was It was a moment in which a page
0:03:56 > 0:04:01turned on race relations. The quest for justice began. It took too long,
0:04:01 > 0:04:11but that has been a huge opportunity that still has to be
0:04:11 > 0:04:14
0:04:14 > 0:04:19seized. Here at Life magazine we deal with a range of youth issues,
0:04:19 > 0:04:25anything from music, fashion, news, politics. But one of the issues
0:04:25 > 0:04:31that keeps coming up is policing and how the police deal with the
0:04:31 > 0:04:36community. One of the issues that we are always discussing is the
0:04:36 > 0:04:41issue of stop-and-search. I can recall the first time I got stopped
0:04:41 > 0:04:48and search. I think I was 13. I was 11 I had been to go and see
0:04:48 > 0:04:52Harry Potter with my friend in Sutton. Because my school is where
0:04:52 > 0:04:55it is I have a season ticket to get there for the whole term. It was an
0:04:55 > 0:04:59expensive ticket. And when I came back from leaving the station the
0:04:59 > 0:05:02police were doing the ticket checks and the oyster card checks to make
0:05:02 > 0:05:08sure everyone had paid for their journey, when I gave the officer my
0:05:08 > 0:05:14ticket he was asking me where did I get the money for the ticket? He
0:05:14 > 0:05:17got me to empty out my pockets. can be quite humiliating for a
0:05:18 > 0:05:25person just to be put out in public while we are people are going about
0:05:25 > 0:05:31their business. It is not a great dealing. I think just my many times
0:05:31 > 0:05:35experience in that and the way the police interact with me it is
0:05:35 > 0:05:39tainted my relationship with the police. I was quite upset about the
0:05:39 > 0:05:46whole thing, it was quite scary, I didn't see what I had done wrong.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49In some ways I think that's when your innocence gets lost because,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52you know, it is the police, the police are the people you go to
0:05:52 > 0:05:56when you are lost, the police are those nice people that will help
0:05:56 > 0:06:06you on the street. But after you have experienced stop-and-search I
0:06:06 > 0:06:20
0:06:20 > 0:06:24think you are perception of them You have to look at stop-and-search
0:06:24 > 0:06:29in the context of the investigation of street crimes. That's the issue
0:06:29 > 0:06:34that you are looking at. You are either trying in the immediate
0:06:34 > 0:06:38aftermath of a crime to find a suspect and find evidence by
0:06:38 > 0:06:43flooding an area with police officers and then searching
0:06:43 > 0:06:47everybody that you come across. Or you are doing it in a way that you
0:06:47 > 0:06:53have had information that a certain group of people are selling drugs
0:06:53 > 0:06:58and you are hoping to intervene in that and maybe get the drugs
0:06:58 > 0:07:01recovered and get evidence for a prosecution Everything is that we
0:07:01 > 0:07:06know about policing requires the co-operation of the public. If the
0:07:06 > 0:07:11public are alienated, and the public aren't alienated just bus of
0:07:11 > 0:07:15police, but if the police are engaging with the public in ways
0:07:15 > 0:07:18that adds to that sense of alienation and humiliation, the
0:07:18 > 0:07:21public will not come forward and co-operate and not act as witnesses
0:07:21 > 0:07:31and give information in the same way they would. That is the life
0:07:31 > 0:07:35
0:07:35 > 0:07:41blood of policing. In 1993 I don't recognise collect a remember --
0:07:41 > 0:07:47recollect a serious concern about gang violence and gangs. There were
0:07:47 > 0:07:52not young people being stabbed in our streets, or gunned down. So I
0:07:52 > 0:07:58think that the political pressure to do something about that led to
0:07:58 > 0:08:05an increase in stop-and-search. And that stop-and-search was badly,
0:08:05 > 0:08:10badly mishandled. My cousin was murdered in October 2007 and the
0:08:10 > 0:08:13case was not solved. It was a situation as to where he was, I
0:08:13 > 0:08:17guess it came across that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
0:08:17 > 0:08:23Someone must have seen something, someone must have heard something.
0:08:23 > 0:08:28They might have had the smallest bit of information but perhaps fear
0:08:28 > 0:08:33made them keep quiet. So because of that the police didn't really have
0:08:33 > 0:08:40enough to go on to solve the situation. The police kind of
0:08:40 > 0:08:43expect you to co-operate with them and tell them everything, but once
0:08:43 > 0:08:47you do that, they go back to their station and stuff, but it is you
0:08:47 > 0:08:53who still has to stay in the community. You have to deal with
0:08:53 > 0:08:57the aftermath of that. So if you were to tell them something in
0:08:57 > 0:09:03confidence and it comes out that it was you that told them, and they
0:09:03 > 0:09:10are not there to actually protect you then it is bad situation.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13often the police rely on reference groups and ways in which the
0:09:13 > 0:09:20community can speak to the police. In the end what we need is for the
0:09:20 > 0:09:29police to be the community. So that we have a Police Service not a
0:09:29 > 0:09:33police force. The 20-year-old was shot three times, the police say
0:09:33 > 0:09:40they have no motive for his killing. He was driving his car along this
0:09:40 > 0:09:46road in nearby Hulme. In 1999 I had a call one evening to say that my
0:09:46 > 0:09:54son was shot. And by the time I had reached the hospital he was dead.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58My son was shot three times in the back. One of the bullets was fatal.
0:09:58 > 0:10:03We have never actually heard anything about the case. We have
0:10:03 > 0:10:07heard rumours on the street. But I think rumours are just rumours. I
0:10:07 > 0:10:12don't like talking about them. I did not believe my son was part of
0:10:12 > 0:10:22a gang and no-one has ever said that before his death or after his
0:10:22 > 0:10:23
0:10:23 > 0:10:28death. I went out trying to find out where the gangs were hanging
0:10:28 > 0:10:33out, what I could do to meet them and talk to them. One of the things
0:10:33 > 0:10:38that happened quite a lot and was complained about a lot with young
0:10:38 > 0:10:42black men was the police and the way they treated them on the
0:10:42 > 0:10:48streets. Sometimes for no apparent reason they would be stopped and
0:10:48 > 0:10:52searched. I felt that what the police were doing, the relationship
0:10:52 > 0:11:00with the police and black men wasn't really very good. It was
0:11:00 > 0:11:04getting worse, really. The high proportion of murders, shootings
0:11:04 > 0:11:07has dropped drastically. That is all because the police and the
0:11:07 > 0:11:14community has come together, the police has listened to the
0:11:14 > 0:11:20community and now we are working together. Whenever you come
0:11:20 > 0:11:24together and work together then things will change. I think it is
0:11:24 > 0:11:28niave to believe that there aren't communities where the police are
0:11:28 > 0:11:32hated. If you start talking about trying to build trust in those
0:11:32 > 0:11:36kinds of areas you have a long way to go before you even get to the
0:11:37 > 0:11:42starting line. This mistrust has been built up over many, many years,
0:11:42 > 0:11:46with problems on both sides. Maybe problems on insensitive policing on
0:11:46 > 0:11:51the one hand, but also problems with a very high crime rate on the
0:11:51 > 0:11:55other hand. The fundamental question today is a question of
0:11:55 > 0:11:59trust. All public authorities actually, there are big questions
0:11:59 > 0:12:03of trust. We have seen this with MPs. We have seen this with the
0:12:03 > 0:12:09journalists, all sorts of sections of community there are questions of
0:12:09 > 0:12:14trust. But I think if policing by consent is to survive, then there
0:12:14 > 0:12:18need to be considerably more trust between young people and the police,
0:12:18 > 0:12:28and between parts of, not all of, but parts of the black community.
0:12:28 > 0:12:40
0:12:40 > 0:12:43I understand the police do have some difficult jobs to do. I
0:12:43 > 0:12:47understand that they might need the support of a community. But in
0:12:47 > 0:12:51order to get the support of a community you need the trust of a
0:12:51 > 0:12:54community. It is a hand in hand. Your community will support the
0:12:54 > 0:12:58police if the community trusts the police. And in order for the
0:12:58 > 0:13:03community to trust the police the police need to show that they are
0:13:03 > 0:13:08on the community's side and they are here to help. Stkpwhrfl for
0:13:08 > 0:13:13their thoughts on what has changed since the Stephen Lawrence case.
0:13:13 > 0:13:19I'm joined by Sean Leopold, a graduate who is a marketing
0:13:19 > 0:13:22executive. The writer Dreda Say Mitchell, Pastor Bishop Wayne Brown,
0:13:22 > 0:13:25the Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin, chaplain to the Speaker of the
0:13:25 > 0:13:28House of Commons and the Queen. Assistant Commissioner Simon Byrne
0:13:28 > 0:13:31of the Metropolitan Police. I want to begin talking about the police
0:13:31 > 0:13:34if we can. That was what much of the report was about. I just
0:13:34 > 0:13:39wondered what your thoughts were when you hear young people say it
0:13:39 > 0:13:45does change your perception of the police who we need, when you get
0:13:45 > 0:13:48stopped and searched and you get angry? It was a really interesting
0:13:48 > 0:13:53film. I take the cue from what you said in the introduction. You
0:13:53 > 0:13:58talked about the police on trial at the time of Macpherson and the
0:13:58 > 0:14:04Lawrence trial. We have been on probation ever since is my analogy.
0:14:04 > 0:14:09The stories were very powerful. I won't pretend personally that a
0:14:09 > 0:14:12police force and personally that we don't listen to those. The Police
0:14:12 > 0:14:16Commissioner has been struck by the story around about 18 months ago if
0:14:16 > 0:14:20you are a young black man in London your experience of stop-and-search
0:14:20 > 0:14:23of not a good one. The best thing we can do is demonstrate by deed
0:14:23 > 0:14:27rather than word. We have listened hard, I'm sure people have
0:14:27 > 0:14:31experienced both in the room and outside the studio about what the
0:14:31 > 0:14:35Met has done, I think we have done some significant things,
0:14:35 > 0:14:38particularly around stop-search. There is more to do. We do less,
0:14:38 > 0:14:43the number of stop-searches have fallen, we do it more effectively,
0:14:43 > 0:14:46one in five people we stop we get a result on. We either arrest them or
0:14:46 > 0:14:49find evidence. We do it more fairly because the number of complaints
0:14:49 > 0:14:53have fallen. If you take all that together in a context where serious
0:14:53 > 0:14:58crime in London has fallen quite dramatically. If you take the
0:14:58 > 0:15:01example again from the film, going back to Greater Manchester, my last
0:15:01 > 0:15:05force in actual fact. Serious youth crime, which affects young men
0:15:05 > 0:15:09under the age of 25 has fallen by a third last year. Street robbery in
0:15:09 > 0:15:13London, as I see it today is down by nearly a third. You presumably
0:15:13 > 0:15:16accept the young man who said he was coming from a Harry Potter film
0:15:16 > 0:15:20and he got stopped and searched, it changed his perception, that still
0:15:20 > 0:15:23goes on, that is not just a problem for him but a problem for you. You
0:15:23 > 0:15:27presumably want to police with his consent and the consent of the rest
0:15:27 > 0:15:30of the community? That story does not sound something I would be
0:15:30 > 0:15:35professionally proud of. You go back, as much as we are sitting
0:15:35 > 0:15:40hereed today, 20 years after an awful murder. We are also 200 years
0:15:40 > 0:15:43after Sir Robert Peel founded the police force on that principle, I'm
0:15:44 > 0:15:49a person in uniform, I get the authority to police the streets as
0:15:49 > 0:15:53do my officers from the people of London. We have to listen. Would it
0:15:53 > 0:15:57help you and the community if there were more black police officers,
0:15:57 > 0:16:00Macpherson wanted 7%, it is 5% in England and Wales the Met figures
0:16:00 > 0:16:04are different. You said greater man chest, the Chief Constable there
0:16:04 > 0:16:08said it is not about political correctness, it is about
0:16:08 > 0:16:12operational need. We need a more diverse Police Service, we haven't
0:16:12 > 0:16:16got it? No, we have made some improvements right through the
0:16:16 > 0:16:21ranks of the Police Service, over a period of time the number of police
0:16:21 > 0:16:25officers on the streets in London is 10%, as your film showed that
0:16:25 > 0:16:28doesn't reflect the population of London. The actual population of
0:16:28 > 0:16:35London and the demographics is changing rapidly we need to keep
0:16:35 > 0:16:40pace with that. How do you do that? I mean the whole question of
0:16:40 > 0:16:44positive discim nation -- discrimination usually comes up,
0:16:44 > 0:16:47and can you promote them. It is not just the police and other
0:16:47 > 0:16:51institutions too who fail to put ethically diverse people in the top
0:16:51 > 0:16:55ranks as well. That is certainly true of the police? Firstly, four
0:16:55 > 0:17:02of my senior colleagues are black and minority ethnic officers that
0:17:02 > 0:17:10is a lot, a team of 28 senior stprs. People will judge that from outside
0:17:10 > 0:17:17the Metropolitan Police. Outside of London, despite the as you tert we
0:17:17 > 0:17:22will bring in 5,000 officers into the Met. We will try to recruit
0:17:22 > 0:17:26those from the population of London. We want to reflect how the
0:17:26 > 0:17:30population looks. Be the community. You are a leader within your
0:17:30 > 0:17:33community, do you find that you should explain perhaps to some
0:17:33 > 0:17:37young people this is maybe irritating but it might cut down
0:17:37 > 0:17:40gun crime, drug crime and so on, things we are all too familiar
0:17:40 > 0:17:44with? I don't know if it is my duty to explain to those young people
0:17:44 > 0:17:47I'm not always with them. Their experience is so real and so true
0:17:47 > 0:17:52that I can't say it doesn't happen to them. I will tell you this
0:17:52 > 0:17:56though outside of my church on a Sunday evening at church service
0:17:56 > 0:17:59two guys were coming in who are members of the church and they were
0:17:59 > 0:18:04stopped by six police outside and they did not accept that they were
0:18:04 > 0:18:09coming into church. So what we do now as a church to combat that sort
0:18:09 > 0:18:13of approach is to say well let us organise ourselves so our church is
0:18:13 > 0:18:17maybe of the citizens UK, London citizens, and we work with the
0:18:17 > 0:18:20Metropolitan Police and the City Safe programmes, we say let's
0:18:20 > 0:18:23organise ourselves and get ourselves together. In truth we
0:18:23 > 0:18:27can't expect an institution to actually cater for the needs of our
0:18:27 > 0:18:29community. So you basically are saying the community has
0:18:30 > 0:18:34responsibility, you have responsibilities as well, it is not
0:18:34 > 0:18:37just pointing the finger? It is twofold, two prongs of a fork as it
0:18:37 > 0:18:42were. There is a job the police have to do. There is also a job
0:18:42 > 0:18:45that we as a community have to do, we have to organise. I wondered
0:18:45 > 0:18:49what you felt, the Assistant Commissioner is talking about
0:18:49 > 0:18:53things have changed in all sorts of ways. Do you see that stop-and-
0:18:53 > 0:18:56search is still a major irritant or something less of an irritant?
0:18:56 > 0:19:01is an irritant. I have to say. When you look at the Macpherson Report
0:19:01 > 0:19:04and the recommendations. He talked very explicitly about institutional
0:19:04 > 0:19:07racism, you have to keep the spotlight on the institution. In
0:19:07 > 0:19:12that instance you are talking about the police. I can talk about and
0:19:12 > 0:19:17search it happened to me four years ago when I was on my way to the BBC
0:19:17 > 0:19:21to be a guest on the show. It was interesting, it was a knife search
0:19:21 > 0:19:24at a tube station, I got searched, he didn't mind, I was really for
0:19:24 > 0:19:28that, I want to join in helping to fight knife crime, just like
0:19:28 > 0:19:31anybody else. However, when I got to the BBC, there was another guest
0:19:31 > 0:19:36there, she was white, similar age to me, she said what happened to
0:19:36 > 0:19:40her at the tube station was that the police waved her around the
0:19:40 > 0:19:43metal detector, you have to ask yourself why is that happening. She
0:19:43 > 0:19:46looked very different from me, I looked very much like I do today
0:19:46 > 0:19:51with my Jeannes and boot on. You have to ask yourself is there a
0:19:51 > 0:19:55type of look that people are looking for? But I have to say I
0:19:55 > 0:19:58was encouraged by this, when I phoned the police to complain I was
0:19:58 > 0:20:01actively advised to complain. were advised by the police to
0:20:01 > 0:20:04complain? Yes, and I don't think that would have happened years ago.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09But I have to say we were talking about complaints going down in
0:20:09 > 0:20:11relation to stop-and-search. When I spoke to my family a lot of them
0:20:12 > 0:20:15said they wouldn't have even bothered to phone the police.
0:20:15 > 0:20:20Complaints may have gone down, is that signifying that complaints are
0:20:20 > 0:20:25going down or people can't be bothered. Did you find out why?
0:20:25 > 0:20:28did, it was, you could take this as a compliment, they thought I was in
0:20:28 > 0:20:34the 18-30 age range and that I might have been a gang member's
0:20:34 > 0:20:38girlfriend carrying their weapons for them. But you have to put that
0:20:38 > 0:20:44alongside somebody else, similar group, different ethnicity gets
0:20:44 > 0:20:48waved around the metal detector I get stopped and search. That is a
0:20:48 > 0:20:51very good point. Going back four years a going through the facts and
0:20:51 > 0:20:55figures and you quoted some on the film. The most experience of stop-
0:20:55 > 0:21:00search with the Met is driven by two powers. One comes from when we
0:21:00 > 0:21:03generally want to look for people behaving suspiciously, and looking
0:21:03 > 0:21:07for stolen goods or drugs, that causes an sie. But the example you
0:21:07 > 0:21:10talk about is something we call a section 60 search, where there has
0:21:10 > 0:21:15been violence in a particular location and we fear it. That power
0:21:15 > 0:21:18which has to be signed off by a senior officer gives officers the
0:21:18 > 0:21:22permission to randomly search people. I'm guessing that's what
0:21:22 > 0:21:26happened to you. Randomly, I think you have to think, if you are going
0:21:26 > 0:21:30to do that, why not let everyone go through the metal detector, surely
0:21:30 > 0:21:34that is the fair thing. When you see somebody similar to you but the
0:21:34 > 0:21:37race is different? There must be profiling going on out there.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41it is a very interesting issue, I would say a few things, it is four
0:21:41 > 0:21:46years ago. Those powers that were probably used in that example, I
0:21:46 > 0:21:52don't know specifically, but they have reduced by nearly 99%. So that
0:21:52 > 0:21:57when it used to be almost a tick in the box and confetti, we don't do
0:21:57 > 0:22:01operations like that routinely any more. I have gone through this
0:22:01 > 0:22:04training myself. The guidance to frontline officers, we have an on-
0:22:04 > 0:22:09line training package that every officer in the Met has been asked
0:22:09 > 0:22:13to complete, it talks about no hunches and no stereotypes. We are
0:22:13 > 0:22:16learning from experiences like yours to be far more intelligent
0:22:16 > 0:22:21about it. I'm convinced some of the dramatic falls in crime this year
0:22:21 > 0:22:24is targeting the right people. help from the community I want to
0:22:24 > 0:22:29bring in everybody else, briefly do you think that is true, there is
0:22:29 > 0:22:34more help from the community now that things have changed or not?
0:22:35 > 0:22:39I'm not sure when I talk to the young men in my family so many are
0:22:39 > 0:22:44stopped and searched. They wear suits and drive cars. When I talk
0:22:44 > 0:22:50to people at the grassroots people are reticent about helping the
0:22:50 > 0:22:53police. We began by talking about how institutions have changed, you
0:22:53 > 0:22:57are part of various institutions, do you think that has changed and
0:22:58 > 0:23:01people see much more of a stake in society and there is more
0:23:01 > 0:23:05opportunities within various black communities to get on? There have
0:23:05 > 0:23:09been some changes over the 20 years. But not enough. If I was writing a
0:23:09 > 0:23:15school report I would say there is still a lot more work to be done.
0:23:15 > 0:23:21That is the reality. The police is only a small section of society so
0:23:21 > 0:23:26to speak. And they are from the community. I think that there is
0:23:26 > 0:23:32still profiling going on not just in your institution, but in other
0:23:32 > 0:23:38institutions. 17 years ago I approached a group, a religious
0:23:38 > 0:23:43group, church group, I said to them if you have a vacancy and I apply
0:23:43 > 0:23:46for it would you accept me? Would you offer me an interview and this
0:23:46 > 0:23:51wonderful beautiful Christian woman looked at me and said we don't have
0:23:51 > 0:23:56any black people here, so why would we think of having you! I smiled
0:23:56 > 0:24:01and I said isn't that interesting. So you can go to the inner city or
0:24:01 > 0:24:05Africa et and work with black people but -- et cetera and work
0:24:05 > 0:24:10with black people but we can't work with you. There is something there
0:24:10 > 0:24:14still in people's mind, that was 17 years ago. I can guarantee that
0:24:14 > 0:24:19there is still that mentality today, it hasn't gone very far. There is
0:24:19 > 0:24:23an issue still in society in terms of racism. You broke into one of
0:24:24 > 0:24:28the great British institutions, Oxford for a start. Did you feel
0:24:28 > 0:24:32when you looked around at the other students, did you feel you fitted
0:24:32 > 0:24:36in, you don't fit in, you fit in intellectually but you are
0:24:36 > 0:24:39different? It is really interesting point. I have never personally
0:24:39 > 0:24:42experienced overt racism, never at my time at Oxford for example.
0:24:42 > 0:24:47However, you do have to stop and think every now and again, you look
0:24:47 > 0:24:52up from your books as it were and you realise there aren't all that
0:24:52 > 0:24:57many people around me that look like me. You ask the question why
0:24:57 > 0:25:01is that? Is it me who is overachieving, is it because this
0:25:01 > 0:25:05is normal or I got lucky. Going into Oxford I went to a state
0:25:05 > 0:25:10school and state secondary school, I live on a council estate. I did
0:25:10 > 0:25:16for most of my life, I was raised by a single mother. From a
0:25:16 > 0:25:20demographic perspective, I live in central London, from a demographic
0:25:20 > 0:25:27perspective it shouldn't work, I did achieve T I didn't overtly feel
0:25:27 > 0:25:30problems while I was there in terms of racial tension. From a
0:25:30 > 0:25:34statistical perspective, statistically black males who get
0:25:34 > 0:25:39into Oxford are less than 1% of the population. In your professional
0:25:39 > 0:25:44life do you have the same thing of looking around and saying where are
0:25:44 > 0:25:48the people who look like me? It is something you don't say or bring it
0:25:48 > 0:25:51up. I have never felt uncomfortable. It is the sheer numbers, when you
0:25:52 > 0:25:55stop and think it is just you and maybe one other person, it makes
0:25:55 > 0:25:58you ask questions, that is all. was pointed out that everybody has
0:25:59 > 0:26:03a responsibility here, including communities. Where is the problem,
0:26:03 > 0:26:07do you see this as a problem, or do you see this as the beginning of
0:26:07 > 0:26:12opportunities that might take a long time? I'm not sure I agree
0:26:12 > 0:26:15with the whole premise that it is a two-way thing, that the community
0:26:15 > 0:26:19has to do along with the institution. We have a clear signal
0:26:19 > 0:26:23from the Fiorentina report and recommendations, institutional
0:26:23 > 0:26:28racism. For the first time in society we had to wake up to racism
0:26:28 > 0:26:31is not about one individual, it is not about a few rotten apples in a
0:26:31 > 0:26:34barrel, you are talking about institution, and particularly in
0:26:34 > 0:26:38that instance public institutions that are there to serve everyone.
0:26:38 > 0:26:43That is what we should be really talking about I feel. An American
0:26:43 > 0:26:46politician once talked about the bigotry of low expectation, that
0:26:46 > 0:26:49does affect the community, if people think you are not going to
0:26:49 > 0:26:53achieve you might not achieve? There has to be something to be
0:26:53 > 0:26:58said. And I'm not disagreeing with you, I understand your point. There
0:26:58 > 0:27:02has to be something said about what we are doing for ourselves. Are we
0:27:02 > 0:27:10educating ourselves. Are we mentoring ourselves. And that quote
0:27:10 > 0:27:15that you said from the report, there is another guy called Dr
0:27:15 > 0:27:18Woodson, he wrote the book The Miseducation of the Growing negro,
0:27:18 > 0:27:22he said if you train someone to use the back door they will never seek
0:27:22 > 0:27:29to use the front door. What has happened over a generation is
0:27:29 > 0:27:34unfortunately we have not as a community not taken hold of
0:27:34 > 0:27:38ourselves. What do you think about that? Racism is about having the
0:27:38 > 0:27:42power over an individual, it is not just about I don't like you because
0:27:42 > 0:27:46of the colour of your skin. What we are dealing with today is a legacy
0:27:46 > 0:27:50of empire that says the black person is of no worth is of no
0:27:50 > 0:27:57value. So for example every time we talk about why don't we have more
0:27:57 > 0:28:01black people in the police, in the church in the BBC for example, then
0:28:01 > 0:28:06we get to oh but we need to have the right person as implying that
0:28:06 > 0:28:10we haven't got the skills and the ability et cetera to do it. We are
0:28:10 > 0:28:16capable of being trained just like you are. You know, and so there is
0:28:16 > 0:28:20a real issue. We need to change the tunes in our head and stop
0:28:20 > 0:28:24impacting on the lives of people. We have just a couple of minutes
0:28:24 > 0:28:29left, you give one definition of racism, the one thing that probably
0:28:29 > 0:28:33strikes all of us is the football chants, the overtness of it is
0:28:33 > 0:28:36still there, but it is much, much diminished? It is but I think we
0:28:36 > 0:28:40keep talking about that too much. That is not what we are talking
0:28:40 > 0:28:44about, it is an issue about power, institutions, there is only so much
0:28:44 > 0:28:46a community can do. At the end of the day if they are blocked what
0:28:46 > 0:28:51more can they do it is the institution that has to change.
0:28:51 > 0:28:57also need to look, it is interesting sports, interesting
0:28:57 > 0:29:00music, those fields, loads and loads of people from ethnic
0:29:00 > 0:29:03backgrounds because there is an expectation. There was a time when
0:29:03 > 0:29:06institutions like education used to channel our children into those
0:29:06 > 0:29:09areas. And what we have seen is that young black people growing up
0:29:09 > 0:29:14have seen reflections of themselves in those areas, so they know they
0:29:14 > 0:29:20can do it. But they are not seeing reflection of themselves in other
0:29:20 > 0:29:23areas. I think that is a very interesting point. Of yesteryear,
0:29:23 > 0:29:28particularly from ThatGrapeJuice perspective, in the music industry
0:29:28 > 0:29:33you will find in the 1990s we went through an era of rappers, it was
0:29:33 > 0:29:36very bling, and the black people represented were flamboyant and
0:29:36 > 0:29:41uneducated, they flashed their money. It wasn't the best
0:29:41 > 0:29:44representation of black people. I feel like what you have seen over
0:29:45 > 0:29:48time the perfect example is rapper Jay-Z, he has been around for a
0:29:48 > 0:29:53long time and made the transition to the modern day. I believe he has
0:29:53 > 0:29:56been respected more as a businessman and entrepeneur. All
0:29:57 > 0:30:00that previous culture of what it meant to be successful and black
0:30:00 > 0:30:04has diminished. Your sense from the start of the conversation is the
0:30:04 > 0:30:08Met has a long way to go? It has some way to go in some things. The
0:30:08 > 0:30:12best people to judge are the people in the room and the people we
0:30:12 > 0:30:16police in London. If I'm inside looking out I will be tainted by my
0:30:16 > 0:30:20own personal experience. In terms of optimisim, we are listening, the
0:30:20 > 0:30:23last bit of the discussion, the Met is on the cusp of ideas around
0:30:24 > 0:30:27direct entry. If you are looking at the point about having role models
0:30:27 > 0:30:30and encouraging people there is a future in policing for people from
0:30:30 > 0:30:34all sorts of communities across London. There is probably some
0:30:34 > 0:30:41people in the room to look at the direct entry scheme when it is
0:30:41 > 0:30:47launched. Thank you. Coming up, music to the
0:30:47 > 0:30:52ears of the Proms fans, Doctor Who and the Daleks will return. The
0:30:52 > 0:30:55last night will be conducted by a woman! We will be composing an
0:30:55 > 0:30:59interview with her. Barack Obama returned to the city where he and
0:30:59 > 0:31:05his wife went to university. Boston, to more on those who lost their
0:31:05 > 0:31:12lives and consoled those injured in the marathon. The FBI have been
0:31:12 > 0:31:17speaking and released images of two suspects. We're in Boston.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20For the past 36 hours it has been known that the FBI had images from
0:31:21 > 0:31:24surveillance cameras around the bomb sites of people they had taken
0:31:24 > 0:31:28a strong interest in. But they haven't shown them to us, and last
0:31:28 > 0:31:33night a press conference where it was expected that would happen was
0:31:33 > 0:31:37cancelled, leaving the field open to rampant speculation from all
0:31:37 > 0:31:41quarters as to who these individuals might be and what they
0:31:41 > 0:31:47might look like. Tonight the FBI tried to regain control of the
0:31:47 > 0:31:51initiative in this information campaign with this announcement.
0:31:51 > 0:31:56They are identified as suspect 1 and suspect 2. They appear to be
0:31:57 > 0:32:01associated. Suspect 1 is wearing a dark hat, suspect 2 is wearing a
0:32:02 > 0:32:08white hat. Suspect 2 set down a back pack at the site of the second
0:32:08 > 0:32:12explosive, just in front of the Forum Restaurant.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16Now we have seen them, the men were described by the FBI as being
0:32:17 > 0:32:21potentially armed and dangerous. And they urged the public not to
0:32:22 > 0:32:29approach them. To what extent does this fill some of the pretty big
0:32:29 > 0:32:34gaps. Let's assume the FBI is correct in
0:32:34 > 0:32:38naming these two people as suspects, it hasn't been a terrible mistake.
0:32:38 > 0:32:42Presumably this is what part of the delay was about, really trying to
0:32:42 > 0:32:47drill and make sure they couldn't identify these people by the
0:32:47 > 0:32:51methods. In the first place this dispels the Lone Wolf theory. They
0:32:51 > 0:32:56talk about the two suspects, one of whom is seen to place a rucksack in
0:32:56 > 0:33:00a place where one of the bomb went off. In the second place it will,
0:33:00 > 0:33:05if you like give some clues as to their possible identity. This is a
0:33:05 > 0:33:11difficult one though, you can look at those pictures very closely as
0:33:11 > 0:33:15we have during the past 45-minutes, these people could be of middle
0:33:15 > 0:33:21eastern origin or European origin. There are still many questions open
0:33:21 > 0:33:28and there will be a continuation of a good deal of uneasiness and fear
0:33:28 > 0:33:32and speculation of a kind that we have seen here in recent days.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36sought to intimidate us, terrorise us, well it should be pretty clear
0:33:36 > 0:33:41by now that they picked the wrong city to do it. Outside the
0:33:41 > 0:33:46Cathedral of the Holy Cross, people listened to the service. Many wore
0:33:46 > 0:33:50the black of mourning. They had been drawn there by an on-line
0:33:51 > 0:33:55appeal to thwart anti-Obama protestors who might try to hijack
0:33:55 > 0:33:58the event. I started a group on Facebook to get people to come down
0:33:58 > 0:34:02to show solidarity and support for the victims. As of this morning
0:34:02 > 0:34:06there is 7,000 people or so part of the movement. As you can see there
0:34:06 > 0:34:11is several thousand people that showed up today for support. Inside
0:34:11 > 0:34:15the President attended a multifaith service for the victims. An action
0:34:15 > 0:34:20his adviser felt was best calibrated neither to reLuiz
0:34:20 > 0:34:25Eduardo the perpetrator nor to arouse accusations of political
0:34:25 > 0:34:29opportunism. Your city is with you, your
0:34:29 > 0:34:35Commonwealth is with you, your country is with you, we will all be
0:34:35 > 0:34:45with you as you learn to stand and walk, and yes run again, of that I
0:34:45 > 0:34:47
0:34:47 > 0:34:53have no doubt you will run again. APPLAUSE
0:34:53 > 0:35:00You will run again. This is a city in which many
0:35:00 > 0:35:05versions of what happened on Monday, who did it and why now vie for
0:35:05 > 0:35:07attention. Do you think there are dangers in the rush to look for
0:35:07 > 0:35:17culprits? Surely there are, and the President is trying to be cautious
0:35:17 > 0:35:27and say let as not point fingers until we really know. There is a
0:35:27 > 0:35:28
0:35:28 > 0:35:33vigilante kind of instinct here, find the people and string them up.
0:35:33 > 0:35:39On social media many theories are flagged up, and people pointed out
0:35:39 > 0:35:48as potential bombers. Here we have blurred them, some look middle
0:35:48 > 0:35:52eastern, and others an grow white men. The theories show shown in the
0:35:52 > 0:35:57posters. Yesterday the feebbriel atmosphere could be seen, it wasn't
0:35:57 > 0:36:01a lynch mob, more the crowd of the curious driven by rumour and
0:36:01 > 0:36:06supposition. An hour ago rumours spread that a man was in custody
0:36:06 > 0:36:10and about to be charged here at the courthouse. Run hundreds of people
0:36:10 > 0:36:13have appeared -- hundreds of people have appeared and dozens of TV
0:36:13 > 0:36:17crews. They are staying here even though now it has been officially
0:36:17 > 0:36:20denied by the police and the Government that anybody at all is
0:36:20 > 0:36:25in custody. It is a measure of how much the atmosphere is driven by
0:36:25 > 0:36:34rumour, and in a way a secondary affect that a terrorist would have
0:36:34 > 0:36:38wanted to create. Evacuate, I'm not asking I'm telling you to. Then the
0:36:38 > 0:36:43temperature went up another notch, everyone was evacuated, including
0:36:43 > 0:36:47the court's creche. Someone had phoned in a bomb hoax. This crowd
0:36:47 > 0:36:53persisted for hours. Even when it ought to have been clear there was
0:36:53 > 0:36:58no prisoner and no bomb. But people go by gut instinct and prejudice in
0:36:58 > 0:37:07this climate. You have 300 million people in this country, you don't
0:37:07 > 0:37:10need more than a few whackos to do something like that. They know the
0:37:10 > 0:37:15heightened sense of security and their intention was to get
0:37:15 > 0:37:19publicity and attention, what better time to do it. The forensic
0:37:19 > 0:37:23teams combing the sites are still finding clues. It is their quest
0:37:23 > 0:37:27for hard fact that provides the fuel that ought to resolve the
0:37:27 > 0:37:33theories about who did it and why. Most Bostonians meanwhile are
0:37:33 > 0:37:37trying to press on regardless. this town the three things we care
0:37:37 > 0:37:43about most are sports, politics and revenge. But when I say revenge I
0:37:43 > 0:37:47don't mean it in a violent sense at all. The best revenge we can take
0:37:47 > 0:37:55against these people is to not let them change the way we live our
0:37:55 > 0:37:59lives. With feelings still inflaipltd and little coming from
0:37:59 > 0:38:02the inquiry, the -- inflamed and little coming from the inquiry, the
0:38:02 > 0:38:05vacuum has been filled with speculation, and the affect
0:38:05 > 0:38:08amplified by media old and new. There will be answers, but some
0:38:08 > 0:38:17will choose to believe other explanations. Those that emerged
0:38:17 > 0:38:20during these days of the aftermath. An American conductor, Marin Alsop,
0:38:21 > 0:38:23will make history this summer as the first woman in more than a
0:38:23 > 0:38:27hundred years to conduct that great British institution, the Last Night
0:38:27 > 0:38:30of the Proms. This year's Proms begin in July and will include
0:38:30 > 0:38:36anything from the Tardis, celebrating the 50th anniversary of
0:38:36 > 0:38:40Doctor Who, to hip hop, Nigel Kennedy and Wagner's Ring Cycle.
0:38:40 > 0:38:47The last night will include Rule Britannia, pomp and circumstance
0:38:47 > 0:38:54and a lot of flags. This is the woman who will conduct
0:38:54 > 0:39:00the Last Night of the Proms this year. Strangely it tends to be men
0:39:00 > 0:39:09who wagle a little stick around in public. Is there a fraudian doctor
0:39:09 > 0:39:14in the house! Freudian doctor in the house! Marin Alsop is the
0:39:14 > 0:39:18conductor of the Symphony Orchestra, and has done a lot to bring music
0:39:18 > 0:39:23to the underprivileged. But conducting a last night, some say
0:39:23 > 0:39:27Proms director Roger Wright fears a backlash.
0:39:27 > 0:39:31It is wonderful to have McAllister all McAllister as the conductor for
0:39:31 > 0:39:35the last night. It seems such a -- to have Marin Alsop as the
0:39:35 > 0:39:39conductor of the last night. It seems a natural development, she
0:39:39 > 0:39:43was loved by the audience and a big hit with the Sao Paulo orchestra
0:39:44 > 0:39:48last year, and then arriving at the extraordinary moment at the end of
0:39:48 > 0:39:52the festival. She's going to be a perfect conductor for the last
0:39:52 > 0:40:02night in terms of the confidence and the range of music that she
0:40:02 > 0:40:02
0:40:02 > 0:40:08conducts so magnificently. Proms will include a selection of
0:40:08 > 0:40:12themes from Doctor Who. Would you like a cup of tea! It was fantastic,
0:40:12 > 0:40:17and I did it a couple of years ago and I had a great time and I did a
0:40:17 > 0:40:24little sketch there as well. I love the Albert Hall, I love the Proms,
0:40:24 > 0:40:32I love classical music. Prom-goers love the eccentric character who
0:40:32 > 0:40:42seems to have arrived from outer space. And violinist Nigel Kennedy
0:40:42 > 0:40:47
0:40:47 > 0:40:51will be there too. And the Proms have gone punk. The
0:40:51 > 0:40:57Stranglers will be likely to be swatting away Union Jacks rather
0:40:58 > 0:41:05than dry ice on one of the nights. Is it true, punk as respectable as
0:41:05 > 0:41:09Brahms, Beethoven, Sir Mick Jagger. With Proms audiences and with
0:41:09 > 0:41:15audiences in general now, they are much less used to putting music in
0:41:15 > 0:41:20particular boxes. What it is about is a quality music experience. When
0:41:20 > 0:41:24Jamie Cullumwas at the Proms and Soft Machine was at the Proms many
0:41:24 > 0:41:27years ago, it is about developing an audience for quality music.
0:41:27 > 0:41:33the story making the headlines tomorrow, and who knows making one
0:41:33 > 0:41:37or two of you fill your Mont Blancs with green ink is Marin Alsop's
0:41:37 > 0:41:43turn on the rostrum on the last night. Things need to change, say
0:41:43 > 0:41:47some. In the institutions we don't have very many women who are
0:41:47 > 0:41:54teachers, professors and so on. And I think if that changed, if the
0:41:54 > 0:42:04balance changed a little bit there, then it may help to inspire women
0:42:04 > 0:42:04
0:42:04 > 0:42:14composers. In the sex war Miss Alsop's turn on the podium souoints
0:42:14 > 0:42:19
0:42:19 > 0:42:22counts as a kind of baton round. Points as a kind of baton round.
0:42:22 > 0:42:29Marin Alsop joins me now from Baltimore. Congratulations, how did
0:42:29 > 0:42:32it come about, the first woman in 118 years? Well that sound quite
0:42:32 > 0:42:38daunting doesn't it. But I have had the great privilege of conducting
0:42:38 > 0:42:42at the Proms when I was the chief conductor of the symphony. I
0:42:42 > 0:42:47appeared twice with that great orchestra. And last summer with my
0:42:47 > 0:42:51orchestra from Brazil, we had an incredible evening at the Proms. So
0:42:51 > 0:43:00I think this was just a natural outgrowth of that. It is great news.
0:43:00 > 0:43:05I don't know if you could hear Dame Evelyn Glenni reflecting the fact
0:43:05 > 0:43:09there is so few women and Musical Directors of major orchestras. Why
0:43:09 > 0:43:16is that? It is a matter of comfort level. As a society we don't see
0:43:16 > 0:43:19women in these roles frequently enough. It is changing but it is a
0:43:19 > 0:43:22slow change. It is up to us, the women that are in these positions
0:43:22 > 0:43:27and the men in these positions to create more opportunities for
0:43:27 > 0:43:30audiences and the public to see more women in these roles.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34Particularly as conductor, I mean, you really have to have more
0:43:34 > 0:43:40opportunities to give it a try. are talking to us from the great
0:43:40 > 0:43:45city of Baltimore, which musically people might remember Francis Scott
0:43:45 > 0:43:49Key, a couple of hundred years ago composed The National Anthem after
0:43:49 > 0:43:52being shelled by the Britain. I hope you are not going to play
0:43:52 > 0:43:58something American at the end of the Proms? I have a lot of ambition,
0:43:58 > 0:44:02let's just say. Are you really looking forward to it, audiences
0:44:02 > 0:44:06are terrific, but the last night is extraordinary? I can't tell you
0:44:06 > 0:44:11what a thrill it is, I love working with the British musicians and the
0:44:11 > 0:44:14audiences have been incredible. I really feel as though the UK has
0:44:14 > 0:44:18been a second home to me. I felt that way since the moment I
0:44:18 > 0:44:23conducted. I can't wait. Tell us a bit about outreach and how, we
0:44:23 > 0:44:29heard a little bit there about how people put music less in boxing
0:44:29 > 0:44:33than they used to. But you are also quite influenced by the Venezuelan
0:44:33 > 0:44:37system of trying to get people in poorer areas where they might not
0:44:37 > 0:44:44be interested in classical music to get involved. Tell us about that?
0:44:44 > 0:44:48feel strongly as do so many of my colleagues that music and art
0:44:48 > 0:44:55should be accessible to everyone human being and include everyone.
0:44:55 > 0:45:00Part of the issue is enabling kids to play instruments and be part of
0:45:00 > 0:45:06a musical ensemble from a very early age. So here in Baltimore we
0:45:06 > 0:45:11started an afterschool programme called Or-Kids, we started with 25
0:45:11 > 0:45:16kids five years ago and now we have 600 kid. As a matter of fact
0:45:16 > 0:45:25tonight I have a Scottish precussionists, Colin Curry
0:45:25 > 0:45:29performing with me and my kids are doing an encore with him after his
0:45:29 > 0:45:31concerto, you will be well represented tonight. We will expect
0:45:31 > 0:45:35Jerusalem and Land of Hope and Glory and all the favourites. What
0:45:36 > 0:45:41else can we expect? Absolutely, but as you say I will bring a little
0:45:41 > 0:45:51bit of America with me. Doing some music by Len nerd Bernstein, the
0:45:51 > 0:45:52
0:45:52 > 0:45:56wonderful mezzo soprano Joyce will be appearing, and others, we have
0:45:56 > 0:46:03Wagner and something for everybody, a great evening. Just a final
0:46:03 > 0:46:06thought, is this a big deal for you? Yeah it is a big deal. I think
0:46:07 > 0:46:11people in America don't quite get it, but I have spent enough time in
0:46:11 > 0:46:16Britain and especially in London. I get it. Thank you very much for
0:46:16 > 0:46:20talking to us. That's it for tonight, we wanted to
0:46:20 > 0:46:30leave you with the news that the artist whose album covers plink
0:46:30 > 0:46:44
0:46:44 > 0:46:48Floyd's the Dark Side of the Moon In a way artists are intul gent and