:00:14. > :00:19.Good evening, public health experts have decided that the outbreak of
:00:19. > :00:23.measles in Wales won't be contained there. Plans to vaccinate the
:00:23. > :00:27.unprotected are now expected across England. Can sufficient numbers be
:00:27. > :00:30.reached before the illness infects the vulnerable. It is probably of
:00:30. > :00:37.the order of a million to two million children who haven't had
:00:37. > :00:42.two doses of MMR vaccine which what is what you need for almost total
:00:42. > :00:47.protection. How do you persuade people who rejected advice at the
:00:47. > :00:49.time that they need to listen now. We all hoped he knew what he was
:00:49. > :00:54.doing, when so many are saying that George Osborne doesn't and he's
:00:54. > :01:02.making matters worse, should we listen to them? We will speak with
:01:02. > :01:08.the Nobel Prize winner, Joseph Spiglett. Put your eyes up and you
:01:08. > :01:11.have lines, this gets rid of them and prevents. Why shouldn't any Tom
:01:12. > :01:18.Dick or Harriet be able to inject whatever they like into the faces
:01:18. > :01:22.of those who think they need it. We will discuss why cosmetic surgery
:01:22. > :01:32.is so popular and so easy to get. The former MP, Louise Mensch, will
:01:32. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :01:38.speak to us about why she has had treatment. Maybe the worst won't
:01:38. > :01:42.happen, but the Department of Health is preparing for it. A
:01:42. > :01:45.stockpile of vaccines has been gathered to offer protection
:01:45. > :01:50.against measles and a plan to vaccinate the vulnerable is being
:01:50. > :01:53.prepared against the moment when an outbreak in Swansea spreads.
:01:53. > :01:57.Experts have told Newsnight that the infection is likely to be
:01:57. > :02:03.carried across Britain. In England alone around a million children are
:02:03. > :02:08.thought to be unprotected. The NHS in Scotland said they will contact
:02:09. > :02:12.the vulnerable there. The disgraced doctor who caused the public health
:02:12. > :02:15.scare by encouraging parents not to get their children vaccinates is
:02:15. > :02:19.nowhere to be seen. But the damage is done, and now the challenge is
:02:19. > :02:25.to persuade people to do what they wrongly judged a few years ago to
:02:25. > :02:30.be dangerous for their children's health. In Wales this week
:02:30. > :02:36.secondary schools have started a catch-up campaign for teenagers to
:02:36. > :02:41.help contain the spread of measles. Almost 900 people have been
:02:41. > :02:46.infected in the Swansea outbreak, with 80 needing hospital treatment
:02:46. > :02:50.and one suspected death. In neighbouring Port Talbot teachers
:02:50. > :02:54.and pupils are coming forward. There has been a large outbreak in
:02:54. > :02:57.the nearby area, to be safe I thought I would get it. Figures
:02:57. > :03:01.here in Wales show it is the 10-14 age group that has the highest
:03:01. > :03:06.number of suspected cases of measles, which is why officials are
:03:06. > :03:10.so keen for this group to come forward for immunisation at catch-
:03:10. > :03:14.up clinics like this. Teenagers who didn't have the MMR vak zone when
:03:14. > :03:18.they were younger are proving most at risk. The catch-up campaign is
:03:18. > :03:25.not just to protect them, but vulnerable groups in the community,
:03:25. > :03:31.such as very young babies who have not yet been immunised, people with
:03:31. > :03:35.compromised immune systems, such as cancer patients. Yesterday the
:03:35. > :03:39.Government confirmed it has enough vaccine to cover those not yet
:03:39. > :03:41.protected. I want to reassure you we are taking this extremely
:03:41. > :03:45.seriously inside the Department of Health. We absolutely do want to
:03:45. > :03:49.make sure we do everything we can. If you are talking about a national
:03:49. > :03:53.plan, yes, making sure that we have sufficient numbers of vaccines,
:03:53. > :03:58.making sure that we are talking in a targeted way to communities and
:03:58. > :04:03.to schools, that is something that is absolutely going on. Experts
:04:03. > :04:08.have told Newsnight England and especially London cannot be
:04:08. > :04:13.complacent. The country as a whole is probably in the order of one
:04:13. > :04:17.million to two million children who haven't had two doses of MMR
:04:17. > :04:21.vaccine, which you need for total protection. London is a particular
:04:21. > :04:26.problem, there was lower uptake ten years ago. There will be pockets of
:04:26. > :04:30.very large pockets of susceptible children. The Government is
:04:30. > :04:34.preparing the nation to head off further outbreaks of measles, like
:04:34. > :04:37.the one we are seeing in Swansea. Public Health England will be
:04:37. > :04:42.responsible for making sure that runs smoothly. There is plenty of
:04:42. > :04:46.logistics to sort out, and perhaps their biggest challenge will be to
:04:46. > :04:51.change the mind set of some people about the vaccine itself.
:04:51. > :04:56.Experts trace the rise in cases to a fall in uptake of the MMR vaccine
:04:56. > :05:03.after a paper, published in 1998 in the medical journal the Lancet.
:05:03. > :05:06.This paper by Andrew Wakefield promptedst suggestions of a link
:05:06. > :05:12.between measles vaccine and bowel disease and autism, and concerns
:05:12. > :05:20.about the MMR jab. That has since been discredited. Population
:05:20. > :05:25.studies have found no link them. And the vaccine's benefits outweigh
:05:25. > :05:31.any risk. Before the current outbreak in Swansea vaccine uptake
:05:31. > :05:34.in two-year-olds was good at 95%, in older children there were 70,000
:05:34. > :05:38.youngsters across Wales who still needed the vaccine. Attention is
:05:38. > :05:43.now turning to areas of England at risk. London is of particular
:05:43. > :05:49.concern. Average uptake of the two doses of MMR across England is at
:05:49. > :05:55.86%. In parts of London it is much lower. Some former Primary Care
:05:55. > :06:01.Trusts, such as Lewisham, Camden, City and Hackney and Southwark were
:06:01. > :06:05.at the 70% mark last year. What I have discovered is it is very hard,
:06:05. > :06:09.it is a challenge to change beliefs. To get away the mind set that the
:06:09. > :06:13.MMR might not be safe. To engage parents again who actually had a
:06:13. > :06:16.different view of it when their children were little. The younger
:06:16. > :06:22.parpbts don't have that fear. -- parents don't have that fee, we can
:06:23. > :06:25.see that, because the uptake is 90% and00% in the Swansea area. They
:06:25. > :06:30.are not worried about it but the older parents are. We have to
:06:30. > :06:35.change the belief and recognise that the MMR is safe. This former
:06:35. > :06:38.Welsh rugby prop forward, now a PE teacher, knows firsthand about the
:06:38. > :06:42.potential impact of measles. When I was younger I had measles in
:06:42. > :06:45.primary school, and I went deaf through it in my right ear. Now
:06:46. > :06:51.working in the school environment it was advised to have the
:06:52. > :06:56.injection just to better be safe than sorry and not having constant
:06:56. > :06:59.contact with the children. Harvey had the single measles
:06:59. > :07:03.vaccination as a toddler, because her mother was concerned after The
:07:03. > :07:08.Awakening paper, now she has changed her mind. When Amy was
:07:08. > :07:12.little we decided to pay for the single measles vaccination because
:07:12. > :07:16.of the scare around autism at the time. We have decided to go for the
:07:16. > :07:19.MMR now because there were some concerns about how the single
:07:19. > :07:27.measles vaccination was kept. So to make sure that she is covered for
:07:27. > :07:31.measles we wanted to have the MMR But the BBC's Week In Week Out has
:07:31. > :07:36.been investigating clinics in Wales and elsewhere selling single
:07:36. > :07:41.measles vaccines, which they claim are safer. Officials are reminding
:07:41. > :07:45.parents that their strong view is the combined MMR vaccine is the
:07:45. > :07:52.safest option. Chloe is here for the second MMR? GPs in Wales are
:07:52. > :07:55.helping with the catch-up too, here in Caerphilly, 40 miles east of
:07:55. > :07:59.Swansea people travel into the city to work. People do nowadays think
:07:59. > :08:06.of measles as one of those childhood viral illnesses that will
:08:06. > :08:10.pass quickly. I think we have to remember that measles is a killer
:08:10. > :08:14.and it is only in recent years with vaccination and MMR that we are
:08:14. > :08:18.avoiding childhood deaths. Do you think it almost take as situation
:08:18. > :08:21.like this to raise people's awareness? I think we almost had to
:08:21. > :08:26.get to where we are at for all of us, for parents, for schools, for
:08:26. > :08:30.health services to kind of think you know there is a wrong here that
:08:30. > :08:34.needs to be addressed. There is a population of children who are
:08:34. > :08:39.moving through our schools and some how, despite all the work, they are
:08:39. > :08:44.still not protected against measles, mumps and rubella. And we have an
:08:45. > :08:48.opportunity now to protect them in school for life. Past measles
:08:48. > :08:51.campaigns have tried to reach out to target groups. Today's challenge
:08:52. > :09:00.is to reach a generation of teenagers and their parents,
:09:00. > :09:07.especially those who may still be harbouring lingering doubts.
:09:07. > :09:13.We have a Trinity of doctors here to discuss some of those issues, Dr
:09:13. > :09:19.Helen Bedford, an expert in childhood immunisation, we have a
:09:19. > :09:23.GP and chair of the council of the Royal College of GPs, and a
:09:23. > :09:26.physician, academic and science writer. How much of a danger is
:09:26. > :09:31.this objectively? I think it is potentially a big danger. There is
:09:31. > :09:35.a large, very large group of susceptible children. These are
:09:35. > :09:39.children who are entering their teens who weren't immunised when
:09:39. > :09:43.toddlers, ten years ago. If it is a serious danger, the key group you
:09:43. > :09:48.have to convince that they should do something are the very people
:09:48. > :09:53.who decided they shouldn't do something when these young people,
:09:53. > :09:58.teenagers, were infants. How do you do that? The first thing, I think,
:09:58. > :10:03.we say it is a great shame isn't it that we nearly eradicated measles
:10:03. > :10:07.at the end of the 90s and here we are on the cusp yet again of an
:10:07. > :10:10.increase in cases. I think the people that didn't have it then,
:10:10. > :10:17.the parents clearly now, hopeful low, will be seeing that there is
:10:17. > :10:20.no evidence at all that MMR is dangerous. MMR is safe and MMR
:10:20. > :10:25.protects your children against measles, mumps and rubella.
:10:25. > :10:29.Hopefully they will be conadvised. The good thing is we know who --
:10:29. > :10:33.convinced. The good thing is we know who those children are, we
:10:33. > :10:37.have an electronic record and we can do a catch-up programme in
:10:37. > :10:42.Wales. It is not just about persuading the young person but the
:10:42. > :10:47.parents that it is a very, very safe and effective and as hisen
:10:47. > :10:53.said, measles is a nasty De-- Helen has said, measles is a nasty
:10:53. > :10:57.Disease, and if it doesn't kill you great, but it is a nasty Disease
:10:57. > :11:02.and leaves you very unwell. What experience should we draw from
:11:02. > :11:06.this? It is always very difficult to fix these problems after they
:11:06. > :11:10.have happened. With a healthcare they are like toothpaste once they
:11:10. > :11:15.are out it is hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube. We
:11:15. > :11:19.have learned firstly that Public Health and the professions have to
:11:19. > :11:23.be better at challenging misinformation from the media and
:11:23. > :11:27.also mischievous doctors, in the case of Andrew Wakefield and his
:11:27. > :11:36.research. I think to an extend we have learned those lessons, if you
:11:37. > :11:41.go to the NHS website and look at the news which checks the real
:11:41. > :11:45.story behind media reports of medicine. We have science helping
:11:45. > :11:48.to grow the reputation within newsrooms so they feel empowered to
:11:48. > :11:51.shut bad stories down. That doesn't make you popular, because you want
:11:51. > :11:55.to be the person with the exciting story rather than the person who
:11:55. > :12:00.shuts it down. We have to think about how to stop scares going in
:12:00. > :12:04.the future as well as making amends in the current one. Do you think
:12:04. > :12:09.there is a crisis of confidence in doctors, along with many other
:12:09. > :12:11.institutions in society that you are not trusted as much? I think
:12:11. > :12:18.individual parents trust their individual GP. That is evidenced by
:12:18. > :12:21.the fact that 93% of two-year-olds are immunised he against MMR.
:12:21. > :12:26.aren't? Some of those will be simply because they have poor
:12:26. > :12:30.access to services. Some may well be abroad. Ever since I have been a
:12:30. > :12:35.GP there are always people who will never get their children immunised
:12:35. > :12:38.T usually runs at 5%. People do trust their GPs, it is important
:12:38. > :12:42.that we continue with that trust and that we are honest to our
:12:42. > :12:46.patients and talk to them about the risks of not doing something.
:12:46. > :12:51.a degree of scepticism justified though. When you look at the sort
:12:51. > :12:58.of health scares we have lived through in the last 10-15 years,
:12:58. > :13:01.bird flu, Sars. I'm not sure they were health scares, they were
:13:02. > :13:05.dreadful times when you didn't know where it was going to end. We have
:13:05. > :13:11.lived through health scares, we have lived through mumps and
:13:11. > :13:16.electric lightbulbs and everything else. The doctors cried wolf?I
:13:16. > :13:19.think with bird flu and with Sars they certainly didn't cry wolf. We
:13:19. > :13:22.only knew in retrospect that bad things didn't happen. That is
:13:22. > :13:26.because the Department of Health and the Government took action very
:13:26. > :13:30.promptly. It is actually I think unfair to say we cried wolf. I
:13:30. > :13:34.think there are every Friday, in the news there is the healthcare.
:13:34. > :13:38.At the moment we have alcohol in pregnancy, is it or isn't it. All
:13:38. > :13:44.the time we have this. But the authorities, I recall is it
:13:44. > :13:51.something like 15 million doses of bird flu vaccine. It was just a
:13:51. > :13:55.huge reaction to a, what turned out to be a non-event? It is easy to
:13:55. > :13:59.say that in retrospect. I think it is likely we dodged a bullet. I
:13:59. > :14:03.think it is the other way round, the Public Health community has
:14:03. > :14:08.been reluctant to use scare tactics to get people to have their
:14:08. > :14:11.children vaccinated. That is the right way to play it, I think. They
:14:11. > :14:16.are fighting against an anti- vaccination community around since
:14:16. > :14:20.the dawn of time. They are using scare tactics now, saying get the
:14:20. > :14:24.MMR vaccine because measles is a horrible illness? That is quite
:14:24. > :14:29.right, measles is very nasty. Part of the problem is when this scare
:14:29. > :14:33.erupted we had forgotten about measles. We hadn't had measles for
:14:33. > :14:37.decades, it was well controlled. This outbreak in Swansea is a stark
:14:37. > :14:42.reminder of just how serious the disease is. If Claire is right, did
:14:42. > :14:45.you say 5% always? Always.How do you get to the people who have not
:14:45. > :14:49.had the shot? We need to make services accessible so people can
:14:49. > :14:53.get to them. We need to remind parents, because a lot of it is
:14:53. > :14:57.just the parents forget, they need to go and get the vaccine. For
:14:57. > :15:03.parents that are really, truly worried what they need is to have a
:15:03. > :15:08.discussion with a health adviser who can set their concerns and
:15:08. > :15:11.allay their fears. Why doesn't the country make it compulsory to have
:15:11. > :15:17.certain vaccinations? Because we do very well without. Not well enough?
:15:17. > :15:20.We do extremely well, we have very high rates. If we had compulsion
:15:20. > :15:26.ten years ago, the resistant parents would have become more
:15:26. > :15:36.resistant. That wouldn't have been the answer at all. You create
:15:36. > :15:38.
:15:38. > :15:44.martyrs. You create martyrsThere There have been resistant people
:15:44. > :15:49.since the 1800s. There have always been stupid people about? We are
:15:49. > :15:52.still reaching 80%, to force parents would backfire. We have to
:15:52. > :16:00.use reason and the discussion with people they trust. And we have to
:16:00. > :16:05.use campaigns such as the one we have at the moment. Either it is a
:16:05. > :16:08.serious menace or it is not, if it is, why not make immunisation
:16:09. > :16:12.compulsory? If it is a serious menace the media could reflect on
:16:12. > :16:17.their part they have played on it. The constant campaigns that are
:16:17. > :16:20.being run around MMR, certainly not in the last two years, but before
:16:20. > :16:24.that, maybe it is a question of all of us reflecting on this.
:16:24. > :16:28.Absolutely, there are many of us in the media who are deeply
:16:28. > :16:32.embarrassed about what some newspapers and others did in this
:16:32. > :16:36.particular issue. But that has nothing to do with the question of
:16:36. > :16:40.the law? I don't know whether Helen will point out that it is nothing
:16:40. > :16:45.to do with the law, the fact is we managed to achieve, in some places
:16:45. > :16:49.we still do. 100% immunisation rates. We can continue to do that.
:16:49. > :16:52.We don't need to force people to get their children immunised.
:16:52. > :16:57.happens if this new campaign doesn't work? I think what we have
:16:57. > :17:02.to do is talk to parents who may have lingering doubt, one-to-one,
:17:02. > :17:07.that does work from my own experience and backed by research,
:17:07. > :17:13.that parents who in the past have rejected the vaccine actually do
:17:13. > :17:17.change their mind if they have reassurance from somebody they
:17:17. > :17:24.trust. It is an easier job than ten years a the peak of the scare has
:17:24. > :17:29.passed. People are more ameanable to persuasion. We have to remember
:17:29. > :17:31.that vaccine scares come in cycles. The French have a scare about
:17:32. > :17:35.hepatitis B vaccine causing multiple sclerosis that doesn't
:17:35. > :17:41.leave the borders of France. We have our scare about MMR, in
:17:41. > :17:44.Nigeria there is a scare about polio and infertility. We will have
:17:44. > :17:52.future scares so we need to plan for the future. It is very
:17:52. > :17:56.interesting that they are specific to different cultures? Undoubtedly.
:17:56. > :18:01.They respect cultural boundaries because they are social, cultural
:18:01. > :18:04.and political boundaries. Still to come, why do so many
:18:04. > :18:13.people want cosmetic surgery, we ask Louise Mensch and others about
:18:14. > :18:17.their experiences. If George Osborne hasn't at least
:18:17. > :18:22.poured himself a stiff whiskey tonight and got his hands on decent
:18:22. > :18:24.sleeping pills, then he must know something the rest of us don't know,
:18:24. > :18:27.tomorrow morning will come yet another verdict on how he's
:18:27. > :18:31.managing the economy. If it is anything like the last couple it
:18:31. > :18:37.will be miserable. It might even show we are back in recession again.
:18:37. > :18:40.Not only have we lost the triple-A status George Osborne used to boast
:18:40. > :18:48.about, even his friends in the International Monetary Fund think
:18:48. > :18:53.he should lay off the austerity. At a foodbank in Salisbury today is
:18:53. > :18:57.a milestone, the number reliant on these places has tripled, in a year.
:18:57. > :19:01.They don't just give out food, but advice, and these are becoming
:19:01. > :19:05.places for the working poor. They know what it is like to have a job,
:19:05. > :19:09.get sick and find that sick pay is not enough.
:19:09. > :19:19.Very hard, it is not something that I'm used to. I normally have money
:19:19. > :19:23.in the pocket, at the moment we don't have any. Hopefully, now I'm
:19:23. > :19:29.back at work it is fine. If it wasn't for the foodbank, we
:19:29. > :19:32.wouldn't have eaten over the last couple of weeks. It is just another
:19:32. > :19:39.day on the economic crisis, tomorrow won't be, tomorrow George
:19:39. > :19:44.Osborne finds out if he's escaped a triple-dip recession. Even if he
:19:44. > :19:49.does growth is slow and the deficit falling slower than intended. He
:19:49. > :19:52.has lost the triple-A rating, even now the IMF are telling him to ease
:19:52. > :19:57.up on Austerty. Those who told him austerity wouldn't work are feeling,
:19:57. > :20:01.well, right. Some of the weakness of UK growth is down to the UK
:20:01. > :20:04.Government policy S some of it isn't. The fact that real wages are
:20:04. > :20:08.being squeezed, very high inflation, next to no pay growth, that is a
:20:08. > :20:13.very important factor keeping the UK economy subdued. Over and above
:20:13. > :20:19.that you have the UK Government tightening fiscal policy, trying to
:20:19. > :20:23.get the borrowing totals down. And at the time of a flat economy that
:20:23. > :20:28.tends not to succeed. What you are seeing is borrowing staying at the
:20:28. > :20:33.same levels, as the grip tightens on people's finances they spend
:20:33. > :20:40.less. We are learning to recognise what stagnant economy looks like.
:20:40. > :20:46.In Wiltshire the signs are there, shops closed, old stores prettyfied
:20:46. > :20:49.with council hoardings. Stall holders struggling to stay afloat.
:20:49. > :20:57.You have a few good days and the rest are bad, before it was the odd
:20:57. > :21:01.bad day and lot of good days. It is reversed. People that buy dolls'
:21:01. > :21:06.house furniture are enthusiasts. It is their way of I suppose hiding
:21:06. > :21:12.away from reality. It is a fantasy world. So you know some of them are
:21:12. > :21:16.quite happy to spend money doing that rather than buying essentials.
:21:16. > :21:21.But for policy makers there is no hiding from reality, and where it
:21:21. > :21:26.is starkest is in the banks. One of the most telling clues is this. The
:21:26. > :21:29.graph of bank lending to businesses. Since 2009 it has been negative,
:21:29. > :21:35.falling �4 billion a month back then, and falling in every year the
:21:35. > :21:38.coalition has been in office, the banks withdrew �2.8 billion of
:21:38. > :21:43.lending to businesses in February this year alone. In Salisbury
:21:43. > :21:49.businesses are putting a brave face on it. This event today designed to
:21:49. > :21:54.accentuate the positive, amid a credit drought not experienced in a
:21:54. > :21:58.lifetime. The banks aren't very helpful with small business, I'm
:21:58. > :22:05.afraid. A loans agreed terms take so much time to put in place you
:22:05. > :22:08.need to find other ways of securing finance. I have remortgaged
:22:08. > :22:11.properties et cetera to release cashflow to get me through the
:22:11. > :22:14.difficult times. It would clearly be helpful for all the chambers of
:22:14. > :22:19.commerce and other organisations to have a brief from Government saying
:22:19. > :22:23.this is what we would like you guys to do. This is what's round the
:22:23. > :22:27.corner, it is a danger it is made up on the hoof as we go along. It
:22:27. > :22:31.would be brilliant to know the strategy and we could buy into it.
:22:31. > :22:35.It is trying to do austerity when the banks are busted that the
:22:35. > :22:38.critics warned about. The crisis with regards to the banking system
:22:38. > :22:41.is absolutely profound. And nobody should underestimate the
:22:41. > :22:45.difficulties the Government faces in trying to overcome this problem.
:22:45. > :22:50.Having said that, they have not been as radical as they might have
:22:50. > :22:53.been with regards to tackling the banking problem. If you really
:22:53. > :22:57.think that an essential difficulty here is the broken banking system
:22:57. > :23:01.then I would have imagined they would adopt radical measure.
:23:01. > :23:05.truth is there is a global retreat from austerity going on, in Europe
:23:05. > :23:10.the economy isle cooling faster than expected. The appetite for
:23:10. > :23:15.cuts has diminished there. Even the academic case for austerity took a
:23:15. > :23:19.knock this month when a famous study was debunked. So the pressure
:23:19. > :23:24.on George Osborne is rising. The Chancellor has a plan to flood the
:23:24. > :23:28.housing market with cheaper loans and extend the Funding for Lending
:23:29. > :23:33.Scheme, where the Bank of England underwrites bank lending to
:23:33. > :23:38.businesses. If this plan fails, it is the free food economy that will
:23:38. > :23:42.be forced to grow. At the Salisbury foodbank they have stock for way
:23:42. > :23:48.into the future. Unless something changes they will need it.
:23:48. > :23:54.Joining us now from the Columbia Business School is the Nobel Prize-
:23:54. > :23:57.winning economist is Joseph Stiglett and my guest in the studio.
:23:58. > :24:05.If you were advising George Osborne tomorrow morning, what would you
:24:06. > :24:10.say to him? I would say to him that austerity has typically not worked.
:24:10. > :24:14.The few instances in which austerity has worked or not been a
:24:14. > :24:20.disaster have been instances where the hole in Government spending has
:24:20. > :24:24.been filled by increased exports. But with the global slowdown, with
:24:24. > :24:29.the weaknesses in Europe that will not happen. Clearly it wasn't going
:24:29. > :24:36.to happen in 20009/0/11 after he started the programme. If economic
:24:36. > :24:39.growth slows down, then the hope for benefits in terms of improved
:24:39. > :24:47.fiscal position turns out to be disappointed. That is exactly what
:24:47. > :24:50.we have seen. Let's bring in the studio. This is not a lone voice on
:24:50. > :24:53.this. One is hearing this advice, even from people who used to
:24:53. > :24:58.believe in what George Osborne was doing? Economists wouldn't be
:24:58. > :25:02.economists if we didn't disagree. But we do have an example from
:25:02. > :25:07.Britain where austerity worked. If you remember back in the early
:25:07. > :25:11.1980s when there was a very deep recession. 364 economists called
:25:11. > :25:15.upon the Government to reverse policy, the Government didn't, but
:25:15. > :25:18.the economy recovered and it recovered strongly. Because the
:25:18. > :25:23.essence of any successful economic recovery is not what the Government
:25:23. > :25:31.does, it is what business does. It is about business confidence. It is
:25:31. > :25:34.about psychology. This is what Cains wrote about, he talked about
:25:34. > :25:38.spontaneous optimisim, animal spirits, this should be the prime
:25:38. > :25:43.concern of a Government policy. What we have is spontaneous alarm
:25:43. > :25:46.that the policy isn't working? Mainstream economists in my view
:25:46. > :25:49.pay insufficient attention to psychology. We have to look at
:25:49. > :25:59.economies in Europe where psychology has turned negative. We
:25:59. > :26:00.
:26:00. > :26:03.look at Italy, Spain, Greece and business confidence has collapsed.
:26:03. > :26:09.In fact there is a good reason why it collapsed. There is a widespread
:26:09. > :26:12.understanding of the basic economics. As I said, you can find
:26:12. > :26:17.instances where there were cutbacks in Government spending and the
:26:17. > :26:22.economy didn't go into a tail spin, when and only when the gap is
:26:22. > :26:26.picked up by experts. It is not going to happen now. I think the
:26:26. > :26:34.business community is realistic, it understands what is going on. There
:26:34. > :26:38.is not going to be any spontaneous burst of an animal spirit to get
:26:38. > :26:41.you out of this. How much of a stimulus would the Chancellor of
:26:41. > :26:48.the Exchequer have to apply to the economy and where exactly would he
:26:48. > :26:51.find it? One of the points that you are discussing before I came on and
:26:51. > :26:55.it emphasised, that what is going on right now in the UK and many the
:26:55. > :26:58.other countries in Europe is not only a fiscal austerity but a
:26:58. > :27:04.construction of the financial system with the banking system. It
:27:04. > :27:07.is these two together which are really disastrous. One of the
:27:07. > :27:13.things the Government ought to be doing is taking more active
:27:13. > :27:16.measures to increase lending. It has the position and ability to do
:27:16. > :27:21.that because it is the owner of some of the financial institutions.
:27:21. > :27:24.That is to say it has a very large share in the ownership. Both in the
:27:24. > :27:28.United States and the UK, and many other countries, Governments, even
:27:28. > :27:33.when they were very active and providing money to the banking
:27:33. > :27:37.system have been reluctant to exercise their role as owner.
:27:37. > :27:41.know perfectly well they have been trying to do that for years now,
:27:41. > :27:46.they haven't had much success? think the real risk of altering
:27:46. > :27:50.policy is really on interest rates, how the markets judge this. George
:27:50. > :27:55.Osborne has had bad news, but the good news is the British Government
:27:55. > :27:59.can still borrow cheaply. Despite the fact it has lost its triple-A
:27:59. > :28:04.record. Long-dated bonds issue by the British Government can still be
:28:04. > :28:09.issued at around 2%. If there is a fiscal expansion and the markets
:28:09. > :28:13.lose confidence then interest rates will rise to 4-5%, or up to 8%
:28:13. > :28:17.which we have seen in some of the Mediterranean countries. That would
:28:17. > :28:22.have a devastating impact on business confidence. I think Joe
:28:22. > :28:27.would have to agree, we don't know the correct answer but there are
:28:27. > :28:30.very real risks in abandoning this policy of restraint and austerity.
:28:30. > :28:34.There is a fundamental difference between the Mediterranean countries,
:28:34. > :28:38.where they joined the euro, they have lost control of their monetary
:28:38. > :28:43.system, and the United States and the UK where they still control
:28:43. > :28:47.their monetary system. The fact is in both the United States and the
:28:47. > :28:53.UK monetary policy has been active and successful in keeping interest
:28:53. > :28:56.rates down. Both the short-term and the long-term. They have the
:28:56. > :29:04.ability to intervene and continue to intervene to keep interest rates
:29:04. > :29:09.low. Do you think we worry too much about debt? Yes, I do. I don't
:29:09. > :29:15.think you can completely ignore it, but I certainly think in the United
:29:15. > :29:22.States markets have made it very clear that they are not worried. We
:29:22. > :29:26.have inflation index bonds, we look at the difference between unindexed
:29:26. > :29:29.bonds and indexed bonds. We can see with the market expectation of
:29:29. > :29:35.inflation is very, very low. The United States in real terms is
:29:35. > :29:39.borrowing at a negative rate. ask in the studio thoughts about
:29:39. > :29:44.that? I think it is slightly irresponseable to say we shouldn't
:29:44. > :29:49.worry about debt at all. There should be restrictions on what the
:29:49. > :29:54.Government do. The whole financial crisis is about sectors getting far
:29:54. > :29:57.too indebted. If I can mention America, the American economy has
:29:57. > :30:02.indeed recovered, but there have been contractions in the public
:30:02. > :30:07.sector. Since 2010 half a million public sector jobs have been cut in
:30:07. > :30:15.America and the gap has been filled by the private sector. By response
:30:15. > :30:20.tain us optimism. So it has -- spontaneous optimisim so it has
:30:20. > :30:23.been with fiscal restraint. United States has very serious
:30:23. > :30:28.unemployment and record low participation rate in the labour
:30:28. > :30:32.force. Nobody looking at the American policy today would say we
:30:32. > :30:37.are recovered. Thank you very much indeed. If you have ever aspired to
:30:37. > :30:40.one of those pouting expressionless faces, favoured by reality
:30:40. > :30:45.television performers and increasing numbers of news readers
:30:45. > :30:52.help may be at hand, right now. Cosmetic surgery in Britain is
:30:52. > :30:57.about as tightly regulated as a Millwall fan's temper. Even a news
:30:57. > :31:00.right researcher is able to inject anything into anyone. After
:31:00. > :31:03.suggestions today those in the business are more interested money
:31:03. > :31:08.than medicine the Government proposes to regulate the activity.
:31:08. > :31:12.As the law currently stands you could have a Botox party at your
:31:12. > :31:17.house, invite me around and inject filler into my face, and presumably
:31:17. > :31:20.do a terrible job of it. Whilst that would all be very bizarre, it
:31:20. > :31:25.would be perfectly legal. Its that lack of regulation of the cosmetic
:31:25. > :31:29.industry that has shocked the authors of this report. They are
:31:29. > :31:34.worried that non-surgical pro procedures have become so every-day
:31:34. > :31:43.that people doesn't understand the risks. For this they blame TV shows
:31:43. > :31:48.such as The Only Way Is Essex. are going to a Botox party. What is
:31:48. > :31:53.that? It is injections to paralyse the nerve so you can't frown.
:31:53. > :31:58.would you want that? You don't get lines. So you are paralysed.
:31:58. > :32:04.your eyebrows up, you have two lines, this gets rid of them and
:32:04. > :32:11.prevents. So by now I should have probably four lines. Why, because
:32:11. > :32:16.you have that done you don't have it? No because I can't move my head.
:32:16. > :32:20.The producers of TOWIE say they never seek to glamorise plastic
:32:20. > :32:22.surgery and have highlighted the dangers. Nevertheless there is
:32:22. > :32:27.concern about the impact that celebrity culture could be having
:32:27. > :32:34.on the young. The report quotes a survey carried out last year and in
:32:34. > :32:37.that poll 41% of girls aged 7-10 and 62% of girls aged 11-16 said
:32:37. > :32:44.they felt some pressure to look the way celebrities do. What is clear
:32:44. > :32:48.is even when the economy is tanking this industry is booming. Brits
:32:48. > :32:54.spent �2.3 billion on procedures like Botox and breast implants in
:32:54. > :32:59.2010. In two years time they are expecting to spend �3.6 billion. So,
:32:59. > :33:03.what this report is recommending is that the Government makes sure that
:33:03. > :33:07.anyone carrying out cosmetic procedures is registered, qualified
:33:07. > :33:10.and insured. They want products such as facial fillers to be
:33:10. > :33:14.prescription-only, they want the remit of the parliamentary and
:33:14. > :33:18.health ombudsman to be expanded so it covers private healthcare. Well
:33:18. > :33:22.earlier today, in order to test just how easy it is to get hold of
:33:22. > :33:25.facial fillers, we called several cosmetic surgeries and beauty
:33:26. > :33:29.saloons across the country, all of them said we could make an
:33:29. > :33:33.appointment immediately. For a consultation with a doctor or nurse
:33:34. > :33:38.who could give us the fillers, and for as little as �175. We ask
:33:38. > :33:43.should we seek advice from a GP first, several told us that wasn't
:33:44. > :33:48.necessary. Dr Rosemary Leonard is a GP who sat on the Government
:33:48. > :33:52.commission which produced today's recommendations. Kat Banyard is a
:33:52. > :33:56.feminist author who has campaigned for an end to cosmetic surgery
:33:56. > :34:02.advertising. Alicia Douvall is a former glamour model who spent more
:34:02. > :34:06.than a million pound she said on at least 500 plastic surgery
:34:06. > :34:10.procedures before realiseing she was addicted to the business and
:34:10. > :34:14.taking herself off to rehab. And Louise Mensch is a former
:34:14. > :34:17.Conservative MP who has also had plastic surgery and joining us
:34:17. > :34:26.tonight from New York. Louise Mensch, what did you have done?
:34:26. > :34:32.had had a little tighten in my face, I remember being asked about it by
:34:32. > :34:37.the Guardian, and asking me had I had it because I had a scar under
:34:38. > :34:45.my chin. I refused to answer it because people are always trying to
:34:45. > :34:52.trivialise women's -- women in politics, but as I'm no longer a
:34:52. > :34:57.politician and I want to support this report. Why did you do it?
:34:57. > :35:02.was fully aware of the risks and reLuiz Eduardos and I knew what I
:35:02. > :35:05.was doing. And when they asked had I had a face lift they ran pictures
:35:05. > :35:09.pre-procedure and they couldn't tell the difference. It can be an
:35:09. > :35:13.informed choice for many women. There are certainly great dangers,
:35:13. > :35:17.I don't believe anybody who isn't a doctor or at the very least a nurse,
:35:17. > :35:21.I would prefer a doctor, be able to carry out any of these procedure,
:35:21. > :35:25.even the surgeons should have train anything that specific area.
:35:25. > :35:29.still don't understand why you had it done? As I have said for
:35:29. > :35:34.maintenance. I'm, I like the way I look, I would prefer to keep it
:35:34. > :35:39.that way. I had a very, very good surgeon, the difference is subtle
:35:39. > :35:44.if you get someone who knows what they are doing. I'm relatively
:35:44. > :35:49.happy, I'm very happy with the results. Alicia Douvall you had an
:35:49. > :35:57.awful lot of operations of one kind or another, why did you have them?
:35:57. > :36:01.I started off when I was 17 when I had my first procedure. I was very
:36:01. > :36:06.niave and believed that cosmetic surgery was the answer to changing
:36:06. > :36:12.from an average-looking girl to this Barbie-looking appearance. I
:36:12. > :36:16.didn't understand the limitations that surgery has. I wasn't informed,
:36:16. > :36:21.I wasn't an intelligent lady that was able to do my research and
:36:21. > :36:29.everything else. I unfortunately was in the hand of special offers
:36:29. > :36:33.and the "cowboy" surgeries out there. Was price a factor in your
:36:33. > :36:38.decision? Yes, after my first operation I had a special offer if
:36:38. > :36:44.you booked more than one you got the second one cheaper.
:36:44. > :36:49.Subsequently I had to have more surgery after that to correct it.
:36:49. > :36:54.Do you, as a feminist are you troubled that so many women want
:36:54. > :36:58.this sort of procedure? troubled that the cosmetic surgery
:36:58. > :37:03.industry has been able to flourish unrestricted and unaccountable in
:37:03. > :37:08.the way it has. The reasons we are talking about this is women and
:37:08. > :37:13.girls from a very young age are subject to a highly sexist culture
:37:13. > :37:18.that tells them their value lies in what they look like, not what they.
:37:18. > :37:22.Do the cosmetic industry spent the last few decades spending millions
:37:22. > :37:25.of pounds marketing itself as the solution to this. You don't think
:37:25. > :37:28.that a successful, confident woman like Mensch MEPs, member of
:37:28. > :37:32.parliament, is really that influenced by sexist assumptions in
:37:32. > :37:36.society do you? There are various differences obviously between no
:37:36. > :37:41.individual woman will have exactly the same experience and same
:37:41. > :37:45.motivations. But we know that by the age of 10, a third of girls say
:37:45. > :37:49.that the biggest worry is their body. And it is therefore no
:37:49. > :37:53.surprise that the same proportion of girls would consider havings
:37:53. > :37:57.could mtic surgery. This is an industry -- cosmetic surgery. This
:37:57. > :38:02.is an industry that has spent millions telling people, by
:38:02. > :38:06.spaceing adverts on public transport, in magazine -- placing
:38:06. > :38:11.adverts in public transport and magazines that it is the solution
:38:11. > :38:18.by going under the knife. Not changing the culture and tell women
:38:18. > :38:22.they have to aspire to ideals. you feel under pressure? Not at all.
:38:22. > :38:25.That isn't to say that I don't entirely agree with the thrust of
:38:25. > :38:31.the report. I can't see you in the studio, it is disheartening to hear
:38:31. > :38:35.the young lady, the model to say at 17 she felt pressurised to have
:38:35. > :38:39.procedures again and again and again. We need this tightening up.
:38:39. > :38:43.A respectable surgery will not offer a procedure to a woman who
:38:44. > :38:47.has body image problems and has done it millions of times and
:38:47. > :38:51.appears to be addicted. That is why I'm glad we have someone in the
:38:51. > :38:55.health office who is a doctor and we need to look at this. There have
:38:55. > :38:58.been problems, but also it had been a sovereign decision that a woman
:38:58. > :39:02.makes about her own appearance. If informed it can be a good choice.
:39:03. > :39:06.Here you are, let's be realistic about it, you are a highly
:39:06. > :39:12.successful, highly intelligent woman who achieved power? Keep
:39:12. > :39:16.going! And yet you choose to do this to your body. Are you worried
:39:16. > :39:21.about what example you will set? Again the question arose because a
:39:21. > :39:27.reporter at an ostensibly left-wing and feminist pap, in the middle of
:39:27. > :39:30.a political profile depieded to ask me had I had something done to my
:39:30. > :39:33.face which is entirely my own decision and not something I was
:39:33. > :39:37.writing about. I think the publicity was thrust upon me, it
:39:37. > :39:43.wasn't something I was forcing on anybody. The desire to look good is
:39:43. > :39:47.not in of itself negative. But look good to whom? It doesn't all come
:39:47. > :39:51.from plastic surgery. I find it interesting you focus so heavily on
:39:51. > :39:55.the individual woman's motivations for getting cosmetic surgery, let's
:39:55. > :39:59.be clear the lived experience from girls at an early age is their body
:39:59. > :40:04.is held up as the post important thing about them. The ideals thrust
:40:04. > :40:09.upon them through popular culture, through advertising are huge. And
:40:09. > :40:12.body hatred among women is rampant. It is no surprise that so many
:40:12. > :40:18.women want cosmetic surgery, the reason the review is important is
:40:18. > :40:20.because it puts the spotlight on the industry for once, not on the
:40:20. > :40:25.individual's choices. Were you shocked by what you found? Yes, the
:40:25. > :40:29.pen you hold in your hand has the same controls as a cosmetic filler.
:40:29. > :40:36.Interestingly in America where they are ahead of the game on us they
:40:36. > :40:40.have made fillers prescription-only medicines. There are only a few
:40:40. > :40:44.teens, 14, 15 available. In this country we have 190 available
:40:44. > :40:48.because they are not subject to any more controls than floor cleaner.
:40:48. > :40:53.filler is injected into you? It is injected into your face to plump it
:40:54. > :40:57.up. When people say what's in them, the answer is at the moment is an
:40:57. > :41:02.awful lot of things could be in them. Did you know what was being
:41:02. > :41:08.put into your face? No not at all. I have countless amounts of filler.
:41:08. > :41:12.I have had it also removed. I have got scaring from trying to get it
:41:13. > :41:20.out. It is very difficult to remove it once it is in. They have told me
:41:20. > :41:23.it is not permanent. How can you let somebody who is not medically
:41:23. > :41:27.qualified stick something into your body? I trust a doctor and the
:41:27. > :41:31.surgeon in front of me. He's telling me it will be dissolved
:41:31. > :41:34.within six month it is great, it will be great for my face. This is
:41:34. > :41:38.the story we have heard time and time again, the British public
:41:38. > :41:43.assumed the industry is controlled. They assumed the practitioners know
:41:43. > :41:46.what they are doing. Did you discover why it isn't controlled?
:41:46. > :41:50.It is not my job to point the finger. It isn't helpful now, we
:41:50. > :41:53.need to control it for now. It has to be said, in fairness to the
:41:53. > :41:58.Government this is an industry that has exploded over the last few
:41:58. > :42:01.years. It has gone up exponentially, probably ten years ago there wasn't
:42:01. > :42:06.that much to control, there certainly is now. We need to get on
:42:06. > :42:10.with it as quickly as possible. have to say I don't accept that
:42:10. > :42:15.there simply hasn't been efforts to, or desire to control it, there have
:42:15. > :42:18.been repeated calls for a clampdown on this exploitive industry which
:42:18. > :42:20.have been batted away with assurances that the industry can
:42:20. > :42:25.govern itself. It is brilliant that these recommendations have been
:42:25. > :42:29.made. I will set up an open goal for you, do you think it was
:42:30. > :42:33.regulated if it was a process that was seen applying mainly to men?
:42:33. > :42:37.Interesting question, it is difficult to draw an exact on
:42:37. > :42:40.collision from this, but it is an important point. Issues that mainly
:42:40. > :42:45.affect women, it is no surprise that when we get more women in
:42:45. > :42:50.parliament those kinds of issues are addressed. Issues such as body
:42:50. > :42:54.image is left off the political agenda and it affects so many
:42:54. > :42:57.women's lives. We are talking about this as if it is women only,
:42:57. > :43:04.increase league there are more and more men who are going to the
:43:04. > :43:07.cosmetic industry now. It is not just a feminine issue. It is across
:43:07. > :43:11.the board. Louise Mensch surprising that you and fellow female MPs
:43:11. > :43:16.didn't do anything about it? Well I think that you know when I was in
:43:16. > :43:18.parliament the issue of the breast implants scandal came up, I'm very
:43:18. > :43:22.glad the government is doing something about it now. My job
:43:22. > :43:26.really was on the Culture, Media and Sport Commitee, perhaps if I
:43:26. > :43:30.had been on the health committee I would have asked people to look at
:43:30. > :43:33.it. It is great the Government is doing something about it. We can't
:43:33. > :43:38.totally level the blame at the plastic surgery, when we talk about
:43:38. > :43:41.body image, let's talk about Photoshop in magazines. Women are
:43:41. > :43:45.held to an impossible ideal because they are constantly shown aim
:43:45. > :43:49.imagines of women's bodies that are impossible to achieve, day in day
:43:49. > :43:55.out by the fashion and beauty industry. I think that Photoshop,
:43:55. > :43:58.which some women MPs have been campaigning against, and air
:43:58. > :44:02.brushed pictures contribute to the problem that many young women have.
:44:02. > :44:07.We looked at advertising very, very careful on the committee. One of
:44:07. > :44:11.the things that was alarming was some of the adverts of before and
:44:11. > :44:15.after, they are clearly not the same person. This is for cosmetic
:44:15. > :44:17.surgery? Before and after is clearly not the same person. The
:44:17. > :44:22.Advertising Standards Authority have to tighten up controls of this.
:44:22. > :44:26.We would like to see a ban on misleading adverts entirely. This
:44:26. > :44:29.is where the review falls down, while it is brilliant to see it,
:44:29. > :44:34.there is a significant inconsistency in the report which
:44:34. > :44:39.could mean that it falls far short of making any kind of inroads, we
:44:39. > :44:43.could end up if these recommendations are implemented
:44:43. > :44:48.where non-invasive procedures, the advertising of them is more heavily
:44:48. > :44:53.regulated than invasive procedures. Because the recommendation is that
:44:53. > :44:56.non-invasive ones, such as injections that they are treated as
:44:56. > :45:01.prescription-only medicine which means they can't be advertised.
:45:01. > :45:04.have been portraying women as victims of a particular sort of
:45:04. > :45:10.representation. There is an argument that says we have become a
:45:10. > :45:14.more narcissistic society? All of us? OK, but in the case of, that's
:45:14. > :45:18.an abstract debate that you can have. Let's be clear what we are
:45:18. > :45:22.talking about, we are talking about an industry that makes millions
:45:22. > :45:27.every year and at the heart of that has been a relentless, aggressive,
:45:27. > :45:32.marketing campaign which actively works to persuade women to undergo
:45:32. > :45:36.medically unnecessary invasive surgery. I would like to see the
:45:36. > :45:40.Government take this report and make sure it is consistent so that
:45:40. > :45:44.we end the advertising of invasive cosmetic surgery. We certainly want
:45:44. > :45:47.to put far more controls, particularly on the consent
:45:47. > :45:50.procedure. We have to stop people going for cosmetic surgery and
:45:50. > :45:55.having it sold to them like it is double glazing. That really has to
:45:55. > :46:00.stop. One of the things we have recommended is a two-stage consent
:46:00. > :46:04.process with a cooling off prd. And your consent -- period. And the
:46:04. > :46:08.consent is done bit surgeon doing your surgery. We can't have a
:46:08. > :46:11.situation where a person going to a clinic and seen by a sales person,
:46:11. > :46:17.told they could have a proceed du, then the doctor flies in, does the
:46:17. > :46:21.operation and flies out again. That has to stop. The same doctor after
:46:21. > :46:24.the procedure. Very often I have had cosmetic surgery and not seen
:46:24. > :46:27.the same doctor afterLuiz Eduardo. What do you hope will come out of
:46:27. > :46:30.it? I hope they tighten the regulations and you have a
:46:30. > :46:35.consultation and you have a certain amount of cooling off period of
:46:35. > :46:39.time. I do hope that the advertising cools down. It is
:46:40. > :46:42.ridiculous to say that we should stop retouching magazines and it is
:46:42. > :46:47.all the problem is media and everything else. That's ridiculous,
:46:47. > :46:51.what are you going to do, put ugly people on TV. Where did you get an
:46:51. > :46:54.idea of what you should look like? I think that's, there is loads of
:46:54. > :46:57.different reasons isn't there. There is upbringing, there is
:46:58. > :47:04.schools, you can see a beautiful girl in the Post Office and aspire
:47:04. > :47:08.to be her, it is ridiculous to blame it on the media. The thing is
:47:08. > :47:13.let's put the rules in place, let's tighten it up and that would
:47:13. > :47:23.certainly help. Make it safe. you all very much. That's all we
:47:23. > :47:31.
:47:31. > :47:36.Hello, on Thursday a typical spring day across the northern part of the
:47:36. > :47:40.UK. With lots of sunshine and some showers, April showers, heavy one,
:47:40. > :47:43.with hail and thunder in places too. Let's look at the scene across the
:47:43. > :47:48.north. As we go through Thursday afternoon, here it is, some
:47:48. > :47:53.sunshine here, one or two heavy showers. Across Scotland it will be
:47:53. > :47:56.noticable if you catch them. Temperatures 10 in Aberdeen, nine
:47:56. > :48:01.in Edinburgh. An increasing breeze as well. Northern England,
:48:01. > :48:05.different story here, nor layered cloud, bits and pieces of rain, the
:48:05. > :48:12.real warmth will be across East Anglia and the south-east. This is
:48:12. > :48:18.the last day with recent temperatures across the south
:48:18. > :48:23.eet,up to 23 degrees in some places. We get into Wales, lots of cloud
:48:23. > :48:26.and a bit of rain too. Western fringes of Wales will get a little
:48:26. > :48:30.brightness towards the second half of the afternoon. This is the
:48:30. > :48:34.outlooks a we head towards the end of the week. Temperatures in the
:48:34. > :48:38.north with single figures with hail and thunder in places. A dip in the
:48:38. > :48:43.temperature for southern part of the UK. London will feel a big