:00:13. > :00:20.The United States has decided that chemical weapons have been used in
:00:20. > :00:23.the Civil War in Syria. What now? Remember this? If you make the
:00:23. > :00:29.tragic mistake of using these weapons there will be consequences
:00:29. > :00:34.and you will be held accountable. Today's accusation is incendiary,
:00:34. > :00:38.can they prove it? We will speak to the former
:00:38. > :00:42.presidential candidate, Senator John McCain, who believes the
:00:42. > :00:47.United States has to act. Also tonight, official figures show the
:00:47. > :00:52.economy isn't in recession, but does that add up to a growth
:00:52. > :00:58.strategy. As rescuers continue the frantic
:00:58. > :01:04.search for survivors of the Bangladesh garment factory fire. We
:01:04. > :01:14.explore the appetite for cheap clothes has created there. With our
:01:14. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:21.guests we ask who is gaining most from this trade?
:01:21. > :01:25.Chemical weapons have been used in the Civil War in Syria. Both
:01:25. > :01:30.Washington and London say they believe the evidence is persuasive.
:01:30. > :01:34.Now Barack Obama has already said that if President Assad were to
:01:34. > :01:37.start using chemical weapons he would be crossing a red line which
:01:37. > :01:41.would change everything. Yet the White House hasn't threatened
:01:41. > :01:45.American military action in Syria. The approach is in great contrast
:01:45. > :01:49.to the controversial assertions about Saddam Hussein's supposed
:01:49. > :01:53.weapons of mass destruction. Senior Republican figures though say the
:01:53. > :01:57.evidence is compelling enough for America now to start giving guns to
:01:57. > :02:03.the opposition. Here is what the US Secretary of State of defence,
:02:03. > :02:07.Chuck Hagel, said earlier. The US intelligence community assesss with
:02:07. > :02:14.some degree of varying confidence that the Syrian regime has used
:02:14. > :02:18.chemical weapons on a small scale in Syria. Specifically the chemical
:02:18. > :02:20.agent sarin. As I have said, the intelligence community has been
:02:20. > :02:26.assessing information for some time on this issue. The decision to
:02:26. > :02:31.reach this conclusion was made within the past 24 hours.
:02:31. > :02:34.diplomatic editor is here. What sort of attacks are we talking
:02:35. > :02:41.about by the Syrians? There have been incidents we have known about,
:02:41. > :02:46.if we plot them on the map one was late last year near Homs in central
:02:46. > :02:51.Syria, another last month near Aleppo in the north. That at the
:02:51. > :02:56.time many explained as a shell shitting a chemical depot and
:02:56. > :03:01.releasing some chlorine, not nerve gas, not sarin. After that a couple
:03:01. > :03:07.of villages near Damascus were said to be the site of the attacks.
:03:07. > :03:14.Today's accusations about sarin. That is a nerve agent, a pin-head
:03:14. > :03:18.drop sized bit of that could kill many people. These incidents only
:03:18. > :03:23.involved a few people. So it is still a mystery whether the persons
:03:23. > :03:26.have got something new. They have talked about an intelligence
:03:26. > :03:30.assessment formed in the last few hours. The American line is very
:03:30. > :03:35.uncertain? It is clearly uncertain. Today's news, sparked by the
:03:35. > :03:40.release of a letter to Senator McCain and others from a White
:03:40. > :03:48.House legal council. They say they assess with varying degrees of
:03:48. > :03:52.confidence. That is an alluding to that there are agency differences
:03:52. > :03:57.that what it means that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons,
:03:57. > :04:04.on a small scale, specifically sarin, that nerve agent. Then it
:04:04. > :04:07.says this a sment is based, in part, on -- assessment is based, in part,
:04:07. > :04:10.on physiological samples. There are suggestions there that the
:04:10. > :04:13.Americans may have looked at people who might have been affected, maybe
:04:13. > :04:18.blood or hair or other tissue. It is known that they have got people
:04:18. > :04:22.on the ground, these different countries, looking for evidence.
:04:22. > :04:26.With the opposition forces, and they have given them equipment like
:04:26. > :04:30.this. This is a French chemical agent monitor, a French army one. A
:04:30. > :04:36.more sophisticated version of the same. You can sample the air or put
:04:36. > :04:41.a sample in here for analysis. Also looking for biological weapons this
:04:41. > :04:49.device could help you detect the presence of those live agents like
:04:49. > :04:54.antthrax and plague -- an thrak and plague. Even if you make the claim
:04:54. > :04:58.as Britain and France did last week it is hard to butress it. According
:04:58. > :05:02.to one export here. I wouldn't believe they would say that unless
:05:02. > :05:06.they had seen credible evidence to that degree. The challenge and the
:05:06. > :05:11.reason we haven't seen activity from the crossing of the red line
:05:11. > :05:21.is because that evidence is not, it doesn't follow all the rules of
:05:21. > :05:25.chain of forensic evidence. It is not absolutely conclusive. We don't
:05:25. > :05:28.know who used the chemical weapons. It could be the regime, it could be
:05:28. > :05:32.the Syrian opposition. That is the factor missing at the moment.
:05:32. > :05:36.do you think the Americans will do about it? The political position
:05:36. > :05:39.would seem to be quite clear, wouldn't it. Based on that
:05:39. > :05:46.statement from President Obama late last year. Let's remind ourselves
:05:46. > :05:53.of that have again. The world is watching. The use of chemical
:05:53. > :05:56.weapons is and would be totally unacceptable. If you make the
:05:56. > :06:02.tragic mistake of using these weapons there will be consequences
:06:02. > :06:06.and you will be held accountable. Now, that puts the President in a
:06:06. > :06:10.very, very tricky situation. He can't suppress evidence that's
:06:10. > :06:14.coming to light and hence you have today's disclosure. On the other
:06:14. > :06:19.hand if you announce it, it creates an imperative for action. Could it
:06:19. > :06:22.be military action? Well we know there are contingency teams of
:06:22. > :06:26.specialists, Special Forces, chemical weapons experts in place
:06:26. > :06:32.in Turkey and Jordan. But in the short-term he may be thinking of
:06:32. > :06:37.something not quite as escaltory as that, perhaps a new diplomatic
:06:37. > :06:41.offensive to try to get UN inspectors into the country.
:06:41. > :06:44.Senator John McCain was the man who brought about today's revelations
:06:44. > :06:48.after writing to President Obama asking him to reveal what evidence
:06:48. > :06:58.is known about the use of chemical weapons. He received the White
:06:58. > :06:58.
:06:58. > :07:01.House's reply today. He joins us now. The samples referred to,
:07:01. > :07:05.physiological samples, do you know anything more about what they were?
:07:05. > :07:09.No, our chairperson of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who has
:07:09. > :07:15.more information than I do said that it is without a doubt that he
:07:15. > :07:21.has crossed the red line. The Israeli intelligence alleged the
:07:21. > :07:24.same. Your British intelligence spokesman said we have limited but
:07:24. > :07:28.persuasive information from various sources. But I would like to make
:07:28. > :07:33.two points, one, why are we worried about that? We should have
:07:33. > :07:38.intervened a long, long time ago. We have watched 70,000 people being
:07:38. > :07:42.massacred, destablising the neighbouring countries, Jihadists
:07:42. > :07:48.pouring into the country. Why should the litmus taste be a red
:07:48. > :07:52.line of use of these weapons when the President has given these
:07:52. > :07:57.people, Bashar al-Assad, the green light to massacre his own people
:07:57. > :08:01.and destablise the entire region. And second of all, should anybody
:08:01. > :08:06.be surprised if Bashar al-Assad used a chemical weapon. He has said
:08:06. > :08:10.and shown he will do anything necessary to stay in power. In your
:08:10. > :08:15.judgment, whatever the rights and wrongs of what President Obama has
:08:15. > :08:23.or has not done, the tipping point has now been reached where he has
:08:23. > :08:33.to act? I believe that he had to act two years ago. So I can't, I
:08:33. > :08:39.wouldn't be surprised at all if the White House said well as your
:08:39. > :08:44.people are discussing this saying we need more he have evidence --
:08:44. > :08:49.evidence and we need more evidence. They are very clear that this White
:08:49. > :08:55.House, watching Iraq deteriorate, equiffcating on a force leaving
:08:55. > :08:59.behind in Afghanistan and a statement that the "tide of war is
:08:59. > :09:03.receding", doesn't want to be involved. I'm sorry if I'm cynical
:09:03. > :09:09.but I have watched the withdrawal of the US and the consequences for
:09:09. > :09:19.which we will pay a heavy price for in the future. Do you think his
:09:19. > :09:23.
:09:23. > :09:27.credibility is at stake? I don't know. He has an adoring media, so I
:09:27. > :09:32.don't know. His credibility evaporated when he said he wouldn't
:09:32. > :09:37.do anything to these people unless there was chemical weapons, giving
:09:37. > :09:41.a green light for Bashar al-Assad to massacre his people. I wish the
:09:42. > :09:45.BBC would go to these refugee camps and see the people who have been
:09:45. > :09:52.raped, tortured skilled and driven out of their home. Destablising
:09:52. > :09:58.Lebanon and Jordan where they have had to flee to. And Jihadists
:09:59. > :10:02.fleeing in from all over the world. All the consequences that would
:10:02. > :10:06.happen if we intervened have taken place if we didn't intervene.
:10:06. > :10:11.would be equally unacceptable, would it not, if the chemical
:10:11. > :10:14.weapons were to fall into the hands of the anti-Government forces?
:10:14. > :10:20.depends on whose hands it falls into. If two years ago we had
:10:20. > :10:26.established the safe zone, which we still need to do, helped organise,
:10:26. > :10:32.train, equip and govern, as we did as in Benghazi in Libya we wouldn't
:10:32. > :10:38.face the problem. Yet we need to be ready to go in or have, let me be
:10:38. > :10:43.careful with my choice of words here, make sure these chemical
:10:43. > :10:47.cachets of chemical weapons are secured and do not fall into the
:10:47. > :10:51.wrong hands. The more Jihadists that go in, the greater their
:10:51. > :10:55.influence and more likely they get hold of these weapons. You are
:10:55. > :10:59.conceding that if the chemical weapons, which everyone is so
:10:59. > :11:07.alarmed about, if they are such a risk, the only thing the United
:11:07. > :11:12.States and her allies can do is to secure them herself? Well it
:11:12. > :11:18.depends again. If we gave the resistance and the people that
:11:18. > :11:26.should, the good people that are fighting for the freedom of the
:11:26. > :11:30.Syrian people if we gave them the wherewithal to fight and defend
:11:30. > :11:34.themselves we wouldn't have had to worry about them if it happened a
:11:34. > :11:38.year ago. A year on there may be a superiority of them. The trend is
:11:38. > :11:42.in the wrong direction. Its our fault, not their's. I wonder if you
:11:42. > :11:46.look at the experience of Afghanistan and indeed elsewhere in
:11:46. > :11:52.the world, early days of Iraq for example, whether we actually know
:11:52. > :11:55.for sure who the good guys are? sure I can tell you, I have met
:11:55. > :12:00.with them. I have met with the good guy, I know who they are, and so
:12:00. > :12:08.does everybody else. But they feel betrayed. They are bitter and angry.
:12:08. > :12:12.I was in a refugee camp in Jordan and this woman said see all these
:12:12. > :12:15.children they will take revenge on the people who refused to help them.
:12:15. > :12:18.I know who she was talking about. These are the sort of people you
:12:18. > :12:21.think you can trust with chemical weapons? I'm not saying I could
:12:21. > :12:24.trust them with chemical weapons, but I could trust the people I know
:12:24. > :12:29.that are the leaders of the National Council and the national
:12:29. > :12:33.army that I could trust them, yes, I could trust them. They would need
:12:33. > :12:38.our assistance, but I would be very reluctant to put American boots on
:12:38. > :12:42.the ground. What about the position of Russia? We keep beating that
:12:42. > :12:45.drum. How many times are we going to see that movie, it will be the
:12:45. > :12:49.Russians, they will take Bashar al- Assad, that was two years ago. New
:12:49. > :12:56.York Times still keeps saying it. It is becoming, if it wasn't so sad
:12:56. > :12:59.it would be amusing. That we are relying on Russia to make Bashar
:12:59. > :13:03.al-Assad behave. The Iranians are now training Syrians and bringing
:13:03. > :13:10.them back. Hezbollah is there on the ground, the Iranians are on the
:13:10. > :13:13.ground. Russian arms supplies have ined, that is doing a lot of good -
:13:13. > :13:17.- increased, that is doing a lot of good isn't it. Hang out the bunting
:13:17. > :13:20.and three cheers for George Osborne we are not in recession, we are not
:13:20. > :13:24.in yet another recession right now, on the basis of figures which may
:13:24. > :13:30.yet be modified. The fact that a growth rate in the first quarter of
:13:30. > :13:33.this year of 0.3% can be treated like the second coming tells you a
:13:33. > :13:36.lot about the state of the British economy. But we shouldn't be too
:13:36. > :13:39.dismissive of small mercies for there aren't any bigger ones on
:13:39. > :13:47.offer. One for Comrade Mason, I think.
:13:47. > :13:55.If you are the kind of person that gets annoyed when economic stories
:13:55. > :14:00.start nought point something. Today's nought 0.3% growth is small
:14:00. > :14:03.but it is something we can expect. It means the UK economy has grown
:14:03. > :14:07.by �5 billion more in the last three months than it did three
:14:07. > :14:13.months before Christmas. It is not much, but politically it is enough.
:14:13. > :14:17.It saved goorn a lot of trouble. -- George Osborne a lot of trouble.
:14:17. > :14:20.This is a modern depression, the graph shows the size of the economy
:14:20. > :14:25.which fell dramatically during the financial crisis of 2008 and has
:14:25. > :14:30.not recovered. Despite today's positive figure. If you look at how
:14:30. > :14:33.the economy expanded since 2000 you can see what's lost. This dotted
:14:33. > :14:40.line shows the long-term trend. The gap between that and where we are
:14:40. > :14:42.is growth that can never come back. I think it is more politically
:14:42. > :14:49.important than economically important. Anything in the region
:14:49. > :14:53.of minus two to plus two would have shown we were stagnant. Being
:14:53. > :14:56.positive is fractionally better. It is only half the growth rate which
:14:56. > :15:01.in the past we would have considered normal trend growth. It
:15:01. > :15:06.is very slow indeed. If you look at the detail, nearly all the growth
:15:06. > :15:10.from January to March came from the service sector, that added 0.5% to
:15:10. > :15:14.GDP, but that was offset by stagnant manufacture and a
:15:14. > :15:22.shrinking construction sector, together with agriculture, also
:15:23. > :15:25.shrinking, subtracted 0.2%, leaving the final figure 0.3%. If you could
:15:25. > :15:31.speed construction up, or even stop it shrinking you could have a
:15:31. > :15:35.recovery. That is not what the plan is. When they designed the
:15:35. > :15:39.austerity plan in 2010, the Government said really clearly it
:15:39. > :15:44.wouldn't work unless the UK economy rebalanced, away from high finance
:15:44. > :15:48.and house prices and towards exports and manufacturing. Today's
:15:48. > :15:54.figure show really clearly that's not happening. That is why the
:15:54. > :15:57.political size of relief -- sighs of relief were not that big. These
:15:57. > :16:00.are encouraging signs the economy is healing. Despite a tough
:16:00. > :16:04.economic situation we are making progress. Of course we have still
:16:04. > :16:08.got difficult decisions to take, there aren't easy answers. People
:16:08. > :16:10.understand that. But that's what we have to do. We have to go on taking
:16:10. > :16:15.those difficult decisions and fronting those problems if we are
:16:15. > :16:20.going to build an economy fit for the future. What can the Government
:16:20. > :16:23.do? The UK's top civil servant recently let slip there are too
:16:23. > :16:27.many answers. Vince Cable wants to fix the banks, George Osborne to
:16:27. > :16:32.fix the construction industry, David Cameron to boost exports and
:16:32. > :16:36.Nick Clegg to boost the regions. think the Government recognises
:16:36. > :16:40.that probably should have spoken more about growth at an earlier
:16:40. > :16:45.stage, perhaps it should have pitched the whole strategy,
:16:45. > :16:49.spending cuts and so on in terms of boosting growth. Now we are
:16:49. > :16:55.flailing around trying a multistrand approach, four
:16:55. > :17:00.different people pursuing four different basis for pursuing growth,
:17:00. > :17:03.I don't think that is the best idea. One economist from a think-tank has
:17:03. > :17:08.drawn handy map of all the options being presented to George Osborne.
:17:08. > :17:12.What is your best guess at when we finally recover as an economy?
:17:12. > :17:20.know I think it is just so hard to say. It really actually depends on
:17:20. > :17:24.what George Osborne decides to do next, I think. What if he does
:17:24. > :17:32.nothing? There is a danger we end up in the low-growth state bouncing
:17:33. > :17:38.along the bottom. On a zero point something day, all
:17:38. > :17:44.the data was sobering for manufacturing, it grew by a zer we
:17:44. > :17:50.are becoming used to 0.0. David Gauke is here for his routine
:17:50. > :17:55.appointment. When the Chancellor says the economy is healing, by
:17:55. > :17:58.when will it be healed? It is an encouraging sign that the economy
:17:58. > :18:02.is growing. That is what we have seen today. We have got a long way
:18:02. > :18:09.to go, we have some fundamental problems that we have to address,
:18:09. > :18:12.that built up over many years. We are making progress. We have seen a
:18:12. > :18:15.1.25 million private sector jobs created, the deficit is down by a
:18:15. > :18:21.third. We have low interest rates, there is encouraging signs but we
:18:21. > :18:26.have a long way to go. Let's have a look at the chart this is the state
:18:26. > :18:35.of the economy. You call that good do you? It is a difficult economic
:18:35. > :18:38.climate and I don't look. That looks like a coma not a healing?
:18:38. > :18:42.growth in the first quarter of the year. We are forecast to grow more
:18:42. > :18:46.than France and Germany this year and next year. We want to be very
:18:47. > :18:51.straight forward, these are difficult economic circumstances.
:18:51. > :18:55.We see the eurozone in recession, we are recovering from a major
:18:55. > :19:01.banking crisis. We have to deal with the big deficit. There is a
:19:01. > :19:06.tiny bit of growth, a tiny bit of growth, negative growth, negative
:19:06. > :19:11.growth, a bit more growth, negative growth, and a bit more growth. That
:19:11. > :19:14.is not healing? We are forecast by the independent Office of Budget
:19:14. > :19:18.Responsibility to grow this year. We have actually grown more than
:19:18. > :19:22.people had predicted for this first quarter. And, as I say, we are
:19:22. > :19:29.creating a lot of jobs in this country, private sector growth is
:19:29. > :19:31.strong. We are also getting the deficit down by a third. If your
:19:31. > :19:35.argument is these are difficult economic circumstances and growth
:19:35. > :19:40.is not as strong as we would like it to be, I can't disagree with you.
:19:40. > :19:45.I'm a taking you up on your leader's view that it is a healing.
:19:45. > :19:53.I was wondering when we might be back to pre-crash levels? I'm not
:19:53. > :19:56.here to make predictions. The forecast of the Office of Budget
:19:56. > :20:00.Responsibility ...The Graph shows us what happens at least, you have
:20:00. > :20:04.no idea what is going on. You have no idea what the next set of
:20:04. > :20:07.figures are going to be like do you? I'm not making any predictions.
:20:07. > :20:11.The Office of Budget Responsibility predicts we will grow as the year
:20:11. > :20:16.goes on. It is an encouraging sign. We shouldn't deny that. But it is
:20:16. > :20:20.in a climate that is difficult for the economy. Your bosses may made
:20:20. > :20:24.predictions, I would like to remind you of his prediction of how we are
:20:24. > :20:27.going to get out of the mess we are in. Let's hear what he had to say
:20:27. > :20:32.about growth strategies? We want the words "made in Britain, created
:20:32. > :20:37.in Britain, designed in Britain, invented in Britain" to drive our
:20:37. > :20:41.nation forward. A Britain carried aloft by the march of the makers.
:20:41. > :20:46.That is absolute rubbish, isn't it? What is striking about the
:20:46. > :20:49.manufacturing numbers. I think the rubbish you are looking for is
:20:49. > :20:54."yes"! What is striking about the manufacturing numbers is if you
:20:54. > :20:57.look at the domestic-facing parts of the economy, in the first
:20:57. > :21:01.quarter of the year we did well, that is where the serves are. If
:21:01. > :21:04.you look at manufacturing which relies on exports, it is a really
:21:04. > :21:10.difficult time. There is another graph there, contribution of
:21:10. > :21:16.manufacturing to growth of GDP, 0.0%, a negative quantity, a little
:21:16. > :21:20.bit of positiveness, negative, neglective, 0.0, does that look to
:21:20. > :21:23.you like growth? The position on manufacturing is clear.
:21:24. > :21:28.Manufacturing depends to a very large extent upon our export
:21:28. > :21:32.markets. That has been very, very difficult when the eurozone has
:21:32. > :21:36.been in recession. It is also just worth pointing out that if you look
:21:36. > :21:42.at the manufacturing numbers, we had a very, very bad January and a
:21:42. > :21:46.bit of a recovery in February and March. Would you say we are being
:21:46. > :21:51.carried aloft by the march of the makers, we are not? No. It was a
:21:51. > :21:54.pretty Silvio thing to say? manufacturing has got to play an
:21:54. > :21:58.important part in our recovery. It is very difficult when the eurozone
:21:58. > :22:02.is in the state that it is in. When our manufacturing is quite so
:22:02. > :22:08.dependant on that. That is why, for example, we need to do more to
:22:08. > :22:12.export to the like of China and India and we have seen some drat
:22:12. > :22:15.makes increases -- dramatic increases in exports to those
:22:15. > :22:18.markets. We need to do more of that and that is a folks cuss of the
:22:18. > :22:22.Government. But the strategy hasn't worked, clearly. You have just said
:22:22. > :22:27.it hasn't worked because things are a bit difficult? The environment we
:22:27. > :22:29.are in is difficult, nobody can deny that. Whoever was in
:22:29. > :22:35.Government would have to wrestle with some of those prob epbl. I
:22:35. > :22:39.come back to the point that we have create -- problems. I come back to
:22:39. > :22:42.the point we have created 1.25 million private sector jobs. We
:22:42. > :22:46.have low interest rates and maintained the credibility of the
:22:46. > :22:51.markets, and we have reduced the deficit by a third. It would be
:22:51. > :22:54.lovely if everything was rosy and the world economy was growing great
:22:54. > :23:03.guns, that isn't the wags we are in, and it is difficult for the British
:23:03. > :23:07.people. But the evidence we saw -- position we are n it is difficult
:23:07. > :23:11.but there is evidence that the position we are in there is growth.
:23:11. > :23:14.How about Chorley wood, are people happy there? They are, it is a
:23:14. > :23:18.happy place. People think the economy is getting better and
:23:18. > :23:22.better, because your experience is doubtless the same as most people's
:23:22. > :23:26.experience in that they are very unhappy out there. There is a
:23:26. > :23:30.microclimate in Chorleywood is it? It is a very nice place to live.
:23:30. > :23:36.There are different experiences in different parts of the country, I
:23:36. > :23:40.don't deny that. We face some significant challenges. The economy
:23:40. > :23:45.is growing, it is forecast to continue to grow. It is forecast to
:23:45. > :23:50.grow faster than in France or Germany. If we have huge steps to
:23:50. > :23:53.take like the help to buy process, Funding For Lending, it is why we
:23:53. > :23:56.are switching expenditure to current capital to improve our
:23:56. > :24:00.infrastructure. It is why we have got ourselves the most competitive
:24:00. > :24:04.tax system in the G20. That is the direction we are going in. That is
:24:04. > :24:07.why we are looking at the rules and regulations that inhibit businesses
:24:07. > :24:14.from growing. Those are steps a sensible Government has to take.
:24:14. > :24:18.What isn't the answer and we haven't turned to this is to go on
:24:18. > :24:22.some spending a borrowing splurge, that would be a huge mistake.
:24:22. > :24:27.tiring being so optimistic all the time? We have some real challenges.
:24:27. > :24:33.We have been realistic. It is healing? On the evidence of today's
:24:33. > :24:37.numbers it is. On the evidence of the 1.25 new jobs created in the
:24:37. > :24:40.private sector and the deficit has come down. You have no idea what
:24:40. > :24:42.the figures will be next time round? Those are the figures we
:24:42. > :24:47.have at the moment in difficult circumstances. This is a difficult
:24:47. > :24:51.time for the economy. And we accept that, whether it is in Chorleywood
:24:51. > :24:56.or elsewhere. But we are making difficult decision at a time when
:24:56. > :25:00.there are big challenges. Thank you very much. The precise
:25:00. > :25:04.figures are elusive, but it seems that about 250 people may have been
:25:04. > :25:09.killed in the collapse of a building, where Bangladeshi workers
:25:09. > :25:13.made western clothing. Household name companies are now suddenly
:25:14. > :25:18.publicity shy for the tragedy raises nasty Questions. Whose fault
:25:18. > :25:23.is it? The factory boss who is kept one of the people in one of the
:25:23. > :25:27.poorest countries on earth at their machines despite warnings. The poor
:25:28. > :25:35.construction that seems endemic in Bangladesh. The western retailers
:25:35. > :25:40.whose appetite for profits keeps the orders rolling. You and my
:25:40. > :25:49.guiltless pleasure in consuming. We have this report. The full scale of
:25:49. > :25:52.this catastrophe is still emerging. The UK's Primark just one of many
:25:52. > :25:55.western retailers buying clothes from factories inside the collapsed
:25:55. > :26:00.building. The company says it is shocked and saddened by what
:26:00. > :26:10.happened. But critics say the Bangladeshi
:26:10. > :26:12.
:26:12. > :26:19.garment industry was already cracking at the seams. This woman
:26:19. > :26:27.has paid the price too. Thanks to the west's appetite for cheap
:26:27. > :26:36.clothes she had a steady job in the industry. But then her daughter
:26:36. > :26:46.started work in a factory too. Just a week later the plant caught fire,
:26:46. > :26:49.
:26:49. > :26:54.killing her and more than 100 other workers. From the charred ruins
:26:54. > :27:03.emerged evidence of rampant cost cutting and safety abuses. Nearly
:27:03. > :27:12.six months later no-one has been prosecuted or even arrested. Still
:27:12. > :27:16.living near the abandoned factory her life is in ruins too.
:27:16. > :27:21.TRANSLATION: I couldn't work after she died. Now I have to because we
:27:21. > :27:30.are in debt. If I ever see the owner I will burn him alive. Just
:27:30. > :27:35.like he burnt my child to ash and emptyed a mother's chest.
:27:35. > :27:43.industry has grown fast, to fast say some. With new factories
:27:43. > :27:53.opening all the time. Attacked by its cheap labour British retailers
:27:53. > :27:54.
:27:54. > :27:59.have flocked here. Turning Bangladesh into its bargain tamor
:27:59. > :28:06.of choice. At this factory they make nearly 20 million garments a
:28:06. > :28:15.year for major British brands. This plant is known for the high
:28:15. > :28:23.standards. When the clothes leave here. They are ready to be put
:28:23. > :28:28.straight on the shelves. You could say this is Bangladesh's Industrial
:28:28. > :28:32.Revolution. Making cheap clothes for the UK and other western
:28:32. > :28:35.markets, now employs millions of people. It is also helping to
:28:35. > :28:40.empower Bangladeshi women. But the industry is under constant pressure
:28:40. > :28:46.to keep costs down. While this is one of the better factories, in
:28:46. > :28:49.others the practices that led to the fire still continue. The
:28:49. > :28:57.capital, Dhaka, is full of smaller factories where safety standards
:28:57. > :29:00.and working conditions are much worse. To keep costs down it is an
:29:00. > :29:04.open secret that many companies often sub contract to these
:29:04. > :29:08.sweatshop operations. The checking up is almost impossible. We have
:29:08. > :29:12.learned that there are many back street operations in this part of
:29:12. > :29:16.Dhaka doing sub-contracting work for other factories, including one
:29:16. > :29:21.that has business with the UK. The only way to see for ourselves is to
:29:21. > :29:31.use concealed cameras, some of our team are going to go inside, posing
:29:31. > :29:38.
:29:38. > :29:45.as local businessmen. The way in is the only exit, if there is a fire.
:29:45. > :29:55.Buckets of sand the only equipment for fighting a blaze. On the shop
:29:55. > :29:56.
:29:56. > :30:01.floor we see children working, flouting the official ban. The
:30:01. > :30:05.owner says almost all his work is sub-contracted from other factories
:30:05. > :30:13.that use him secretly to fulfil their orders. Some of the clothes
:30:13. > :30:17.made here have been destined for the UK. Even for factories with the
:30:17. > :30:26.best reputations, the pressure is growing. Here they insist
:30:27. > :30:32.everything is done in-house, with no sub-contractors. Our existing
:30:32. > :30:38.customer, they are more vigilent now. They are frequently visiting
:30:38. > :30:42.with notice and no notice. Wur also ourselves motivating people. We are
:30:42. > :30:45.on high -- we are also ourselves motivating people, we are on high
:30:45. > :30:49.alert and taking initiative. Definitely this is a wake-up call
:30:49. > :30:55.for us. Do you think there needs to be more Government regulation?
:30:55. > :31:02.have a regulation but the implementation is not about. From
:31:02. > :31:06.the offices of her small labour union Nasma campaigns for better
:31:06. > :31:11.conditions and workers' rights. It is risky work, last year one
:31:11. > :31:16.organiser was found murdered. The case is still unsolved. She says
:31:16. > :31:23.western buyers are complicit too for turning a blind eye to the
:31:23. > :31:30.industry's cut-price practice. buyer is showing they are sleeping,
:31:30. > :31:35.but really they are not sleeping. They know all the thing behind what
:31:35. > :31:38.is going on and their showing they don't know anything. Their double
:31:39. > :31:44.face is there. They are always cutting and asking for better
:31:44. > :31:52.compliance. But some factories still have
:31:52. > :32:02.questions to answer. We follow one of the Government's new fire
:32:02. > :32:14.
:32:14. > :32:24.This plant also make clothes for the UK. Then they test a smoke
:32:24. > :32:24.
:32:24. > :32:34.alarm. It doesn't work. It is an embarrassing and potentially deadly
:32:34. > :32:37.
:32:38. > :32:42.lapse. The plastic seals are still on the battery. With so many
:32:42. > :32:44.Bangladeshis on the wrong side of the track, in this densely
:32:44. > :32:54.populated country, it desperately needs the jobs the clothes business
:32:54. > :33:00.provides. The Government says it is determined to improve conditions
:33:00. > :33:04.and to close down the worst franc tros. But the message to --
:33:04. > :33:08.factories, but the message to western countries is "don't push us
:33:08. > :33:13.too hard". If they really want this human rights to be maintained, that
:33:13. > :33:16.is the biggest human right, the right for survival, the right for a
:33:16. > :33:24.better life. That is very important. Number two is there must be also
:33:24. > :33:34.ready to pay us the real wages. is not clear if any extra money
:33:34. > :33:38.
:33:38. > :33:45.would actually reach the people who need it most. Six months since her
:33:45. > :33:54.daughter's death Rumana finally build up the courage to visit her
:33:54. > :34:01.grave. Now hundreds of other Bangladeshis are mourning. And the
:34:01. > :34:08.price of feeding the west's hunger for cheap clothes keeps rising. To
:34:08. > :34:14.talk about this we are joined by Jeff Banks, a fashion designer and
:34:14. > :34:20.who launched the fashion chain Warehouse, he also launched the
:34:20. > :34:25.Clothes Show. Katharine Hammnett, who has campaigned since the 1980s
:34:25. > :34:29.for better ethics in the fashion industry and a designer. And
:34:29. > :34:33.Rushanara Ali, was born in Bangladesh and looks into the
:34:33. > :34:38.industry in India. Who benefits most from the trade?
:34:38. > :34:42.think it is 50/50. There is a desire in the west to keep on
:34:42. > :34:47.buying economical clothes. I think we are all guilty of it. I would
:34:47. > :34:51.like to say I think that the clothing industry generally tonight
:34:51. > :34:57.is grossly ashamed of what's gone on in the last week in Bangladesh.
:34:57. > :35:01.I think it's actually having a riveting effect on a lot of chief
:35:01. > :35:05.executives as the way they handle their business going forward.
:35:05. > :35:10.Regretably it has had an effect. On the other side, I do believe that
:35:10. > :35:16.nations that are actually endeavouring to pull themselves up
:35:16. > :35:21.by the bootstraps do look forward to this kind of manufacturing and
:35:21. > :35:26.I'm afraid these indiscretions, even though the majority of
:35:26. > :35:31.companies retain companies to look after the efficiency with which
:35:31. > :35:37.things are dealt with, some slip through the net. Katharine Hammnett
:35:37. > :35:43.who do you think benefits from this trade? From this, the people at the
:35:43. > :35:47.top of the big brands, the people that are floating around in their
:35:47. > :35:50.�100 million yachts. You would accept that clearly in terms of the
:35:50. > :35:54.employment and national income it has benefits for a country like
:35:54. > :35:58.Bangladesh this trade? It is one of their biggest exports. Wait the
:35:58. > :36:04.workers are paid and treated, it is hard to say whether they are better
:36:04. > :36:09.off. I suppose they just manage to eat. But a lot of this
:36:09. > :36:16.manufacturing goes on in export processing zones which are actually
:36:16. > :36:21.exempt from even local labour laws. Any dissent or demands for higher
:36:21. > :36:25.wage or attempts at collective bargaining are assessed by the
:36:25. > :36:29.military. It has a he will had of a long way to go. Rushanara Ali,
:36:29. > :36:32.would you accept it is a lot to do with corruption in Bangladesh and
:36:32. > :36:37.people not implementing regulation that should be, it is not entirely
:36:37. > :36:44.the fault of western retailers? think that the fault lies with both
:36:44. > :36:50.the companies of those countries, like Bangladesh, as well as the
:36:50. > :36:53.businesses, western businesses that are involved in there. I do believe
:36:53. > :36:58.they have a much greater responsibility to work toward
:36:58. > :37:04.having basic minimum standard. These are multibillion pound
:37:04. > :37:08.operations. Around the world. In garments factories. If they
:37:08. > :37:12.exercised their influence and power to ensure the conditions were met
:37:12. > :37:16.you would have better results. Countries like Bangladesh need the
:37:16. > :37:19.inLuiz Eduardo investment. The Governments would take action if
:37:19. > :37:23.business applied its pressure appropriately. That is not
:37:23. > :37:26.happening. It is very peace meal what they do. -- piecemeal had a
:37:26. > :37:31.they. Do I have seen some of the work they do, it is good work but
:37:31. > :37:34.insignificant compared to the scale of the problem. In the case of this
:37:34. > :37:38.particular tragedy, we know there was a crack in the building,
:37:38. > :37:42.warnings were given about it, the warnings were ignored, people felt
:37:42. > :37:45.compelled to go to work. What responsibility is that of a British
:37:45. > :37:50.or European retailer or importer? There should be, I believe there
:37:50. > :37:54.should be international agreements on basic minimum labour standards
:37:54. > :37:57.and conditions, within which businesses can operate effectively.
:37:58. > :38:02.It is true businesses can't enforce those changes on their own, they
:38:02. > :38:08.have a very important role to play. Reputationally there is huge damage
:38:08. > :38:11.to businesses and their brands. It is not really in the interests of
:38:11. > :38:14.the business or the country concerned, if there is a case of
:38:14. > :38:18.irresponsible capitalism, this is a clear example of it and business
:38:18. > :38:24.need to step up. You said some businesses are beginning to
:38:24. > :38:31.recognise it? Many of the companies named there Next, Tesco, they
:38:31. > :38:35.employ a group called Suvaro, based in Hong Kong, they would have
:38:35. > :38:39.170,000 employees that are retained to go and ensure that standards of
:38:39. > :38:44.minimum wages, hospital arrangements, number of toilets per
:38:44. > :38:49.head, all of those things are abided by. And they what advise
:38:49. > :38:56.companies to withdraw should shows not be complied with. The question
:38:56. > :38:59.mark over this build something would that organisation have had a
:39:00. > :39:03.structural engineer look at the safety of the building. I think not.
:39:03. > :39:07.We don't know that? Having said that, the chairman of Matalan
:39:07. > :39:13.issued a directive to awful his procurement people that in future
:39:13. > :39:19.that has to be added to the list. The what are son is, you think
:39:19. > :39:22.about the old sweat -- comparisons is this, you think about the old
:39:22. > :39:26.factories here and weaving factories and the like, conditions
:39:26. > :39:30.were pretty terrible. Can we expect to have similar conditions in the
:39:30. > :39:32.developing world to the sort of conditions we expect to take for
:39:32. > :39:39.granted here? We should have similar standards. I think we
:39:39. > :39:43.should have a decent living minimum wage, we should have freedom of
:39:44. > :39:46.association, access to healthcare, building regulation check. I think
:39:46. > :39:50.that actually you could have legislation in those countries, but
:39:50. > :39:55.it doesn't seem to work, we actually need to have legislation
:39:56. > :39:59.in our countries that goods coming into our countries are certificated
:39:59. > :40:03.to these standards and inspected properly to force the change. The
:40:03. > :40:08.problem is, the big brands are really happy. The Chinese
:40:08. > :40:12.Government official told me once that the reason they haven't
:40:12. > :40:17.improved their labour standards, their human rights, is because the
:40:17. > :40:22.big brands were pressuring them not to. The key thing will be, let me
:40:22. > :40:25.play you a bit of tape, this afternoon we went out to talk to
:40:25. > :40:31.the people just outside Primark. Their views are quite interesting.
:40:31. > :40:36.It is very short, just listen to it. Have you heard about the factory
:40:36. > :40:44.collapseded in Bangladesh? No. people have been killed. One of the
:40:44. > :40:49.shops they supply to is Primark. didn't know that. Will that affect
:40:49. > :40:53.whether or not you go to Primark? Yes. Why? That is outrageous. If I
:40:53. > :40:59.had known that before I went in I wouldn't have gone in. Why do you
:40:59. > :41:06.shop in Primark? Because it is cheap. For the price. Do you worry
:41:06. > :41:11.about where and how it is made? Not at all. What a pity, but not at
:41:11. > :41:20.all. Do you ever think about where they are made? I know they are made
:41:20. > :41:24.in Bangladesh and I have heard the news about it collapsing. I'm a
:41:24. > :41:29.lecturer and we were talking about it today. Why did you still go in?
:41:29. > :41:34.These don't say Bangladesh I don't know where they were made. What did
:41:34. > :41:39.you buy? A T-shirt and basic things. What did you make of the story when
:41:39. > :41:45.you saw the pictures of the factory collapse, more than 200 people
:41:45. > :41:49.died? I felt bad for them, then I thought a person alone not buying a
:41:49. > :41:52.T-shirt in one shop wouldn't make a difference. What if everyone
:41:52. > :41:56.stopped buying T-shirts? I hope they do, but I don't think that
:41:56. > :42:01.time will come soon. We have got a different attitude to clothe,
:42:01. > :42:04.haven't we. To the fact that you should be able some how to buy
:42:04. > :42:09.cheap clothes. They are not intrinsically cheap? I think they
:42:09. > :42:17.are cheap. When you look at prices back in the 1980s that if you look
:42:17. > :42:21.at the price of a Lewin shirt at �20 these days, it was probably �79
:42:21. > :42:25.back in the 80s. The cost of clothing, relative to the rest of
:42:25. > :42:28.the economy has remained permanently cheap. That is the
:42:28. > :42:33.desire of the consumer. It is interesting what those people are
:42:33. > :42:37.saying. I think if you don't comply, socially, I think the consumer will
:42:37. > :42:42.vote with their wallet. I think a lot of people will be turned off
:42:42. > :42:48.Primark as a result. The one thing I would like to say is that only 35
:42:48. > :42:55.years ago in streets not too far from here was the centre of the rag
:42:55. > :43:01.trade. With sweat shops on every flour. In 1976 the minimum leaving
:43:01. > :43:06.school age of a schoolgirl was raised to 16. Prior to that there
:43:06. > :43:10.would be rows of 15-year-olds sitting on sewing machines. What we
:43:11. > :43:15.expect in the west is the rest of the planet will catch up with the
:43:15. > :43:21.situation today. When Katherine talks about Chinese situations, in
:43:21. > :43:26.fact the Chinese textile development council employ over
:43:26. > :43:30.2,500 people that look after the way human rights are actually
:43:30. > :43:33.activated in China. A lot of the manufacturing that you go to now,
:43:33. > :43:37.theity and standard of manufacturing and factories there
:43:37. > :43:43.is higher than you would certainly get in a lot of western European
:43:43. > :43:47.factories. Let's leave the Chinese, because we are at a bit of a loss
:43:47. > :43:51.and specific references to China. When you look at the question of
:43:51. > :43:59.consumer pressure and this industry, do you believe that such a thing as
:43:59. > :44:04.an ethical rag trade is feasible? think consumers are driving it. The
:44:04. > :44:08.rag trade by itself would probably have done nothing. But increased
:44:08. > :44:11.consumer awareness of these issues is making people not buy things
:44:11. > :44:15.because they are concerned about where they come from and how they
:44:15. > :44:18.are made. Marks & Spencers have got figures on this which are
:44:18. > :44:23.surprisingly high H something like 60% of consumers have not bought
:44:23. > :44:29.something because of these kinds of concerns. I disagree. These are the
:44:29. > :44:33.ones that are driving the industry to remove. Clothes have come down
:44:33. > :44:37.and are incredibly cheap. They are not cheap when you consider the
:44:37. > :44:42.true cost is paid in human suffering and environmental
:44:42. > :44:47.degradation in the bottom of the ply chain. When you look at the
:44:47. > :44:52.role of Government, the British Government or the EU, what can they
:44:52. > :45:01.do? They have a very important responsibility to set the standards.
:45:01. > :45:05.We have seen that with child labour. Years ago there was much concern
:45:05. > :45:08.about child labour. Governments came together and companies worked
:45:08. > :45:13.with the Governments to effect change. You need people to campaign
:45:13. > :45:17.and Governments to act. I think it does concern me the comments that
:45:17. > :45:22.Jeff has made. If we don't have high expectations, we are never
:45:22. > :45:26.going to change anything. The idea that people's lives should be at
:45:26. > :45:31.risk in those countries is just unacceptable. I represent the
:45:31. > :45:36.constituency that had the rag trade. That doesn't make it OK that you
:45:36. > :45:41.have the kinds of deaths and destruction in factories in those
:45:41. > :45:45.countries. The pay is less than �1 a week in some of these places. The
:45:45. > :45:48.majority of garments workers are women. It is clear those countries
:45:48. > :45:53.need the investment and the economic development. But you
:45:53. > :45:57.cannot have the kind of damage to people's lives that we have seen,
:45:57. > :46:00.not just in Bangladesh, but Pakistan, numerous accidents. We
:46:00. > :46:04.need business to work responsibly with Governments and we need
:46:04. > :46:09.international agreements that are properly honoured. Businesses will
:46:09. > :46:13.need to be required to act if they don't show results. We haven't seen
:46:13. > :46:17.the kind of results we need to protect people. You have an
:46:17. > :46:22.organisation that employs 170,000 people, acting own behalf of
:46:22. > :46:29.companies like Tesco and Next, that are actually ensuring that the
:46:29. > :46:33.requirement? They are the exemption peculiars. They are standard, it is
:46:33. > :46:37.the odd few not necessarily doing T again the restriction in law, it
:46:37. > :46:40.happened in India that the law was changed about people and
:46:40. > :46:45.responsibilities in employment and pensions and immediately hundreds