:00:14. > :00:19.Tonight, is it wrong to avoid paying tax, if you are rich enough
:00:19. > :00:24.to own one of these and happy enough to say you are Britain's
:00:24. > :00:31.biggest taxpayer, are you a saint or mug? Whenever I speak you are
:00:31. > :00:34.frowned upon. We need to do that taxation. For
:00:34. > :00:40.certain sectors for getting away with paying very low tax. Who do we
:00:40. > :00:50.want to figure on our brand-new �5 notes. Should it be him. We have
:00:50. > :00:53.
:00:53. > :01:03.I'm going to find out who killed Wellington. The serious incident of
:01:03. > :01:16.
:01:16. > :01:26.the West End hit. Why do some people pay less tax
:01:26. > :01:27.
:01:27. > :01:31.than they should. The punch line is the same
:01:31. > :01:35.Big companies and small individuals have been named and shamed. Their
:01:35. > :01:39.scams and excuses are depauornityed to make public blood boil. Tonight
:01:39. > :01:43.we ask a few fundamental questions about tax. Why can't the Government
:01:43. > :01:53.devise a system that prevents avoidance, and would anyone pay
:01:53. > :02:01.
:02:01. > :02:06.more tax than they had to. Britain's tax system is as
:02:06. > :02:13.complicated as the ecosystem and around as long. An export levy was
:02:13. > :02:17.exposeded by king done in 1505. Each tax has a shrew of Bolton
:02:17. > :02:22.thanks to exemptions, reliefs and write-offs and loopholes, making
:02:22. > :02:28.the understanding of tax only for the dedicated. To show how complex,
:02:29. > :02:32.suppose a Government make as profit of �10 million this year. It should
:02:32. > :02:37.pay 23% in corporation tax. If it was carrying over losses of
:02:37. > :02:41.previous years of �1 million. That cuts the taxable amount by �230,000.
:02:41. > :02:48.If part of the profit included the �2 million sale of a property,
:02:48. > :02:52.which was then reinvested, the tax can be rolled over saving �460
:02:52. > :02:59.though though if it spent �1 million on research and development,
:02:59. > :03:06.that qualifies as tax relief and allows us to write off �2867. If �1
:03:06. > :03:12.million are thanks to a patent, that is a lower rate tax saving the
:03:12. > :03:16.company �130,000. That leaves a final corporation tax of �1.2
:03:16. > :03:20.million, half the headline amount. Confused? You should be. These are
:03:20. > :03:25.only some of the reliefs and exemptions that can be used. It is
:03:25. > :03:29.no wonder an army of well paid tax executives have grown up advising
:03:29. > :03:33.Governments and companies on how best to implement tax rules, or
:03:33. > :03:38.indeed how to avoid paying tax in the first place. Today the Public
:03:38. > :03:43.Accounts Committee of MPs, the scourge of UK tax avoiders
:03:43. > :03:48.resurfaced with the big four accountants in its sights. The big
:03:48. > :03:52.four accountany firms put their experts into Treasury and HMRC and
:03:52. > :03:55.help write the technical rules that become new laws, and armed with the
:03:55. > :04:05.insider knowledge they go back to their companies and use that
:04:05. > :04:10.knowledge to devise new schemes for tax avoidance. The PCA C was
:04:10. > :04:14.unstinting in criticism of HMRC, saying it was way too cosy in its
:04:14. > :04:19.relationship with big audit. One tax inspector turned author agrees.
:04:19. > :04:24.The relationship between the big four and HMRC is extremely close,
:04:24. > :04:31.far closer in the last ten years or so, under various initiatives to
:04:31. > :04:34.relax corporate taxation in favour of the biggest companies. The
:04:34. > :04:39.bigger accountany firms have been the people to go to get the
:04:39. > :04:42.corporate view in the first place. But London is a megacity because it
:04:43. > :04:48.attracts the finest advisers and consultants in the world. The MP
:04:48. > :04:51.for the City is worried that all this fog-horning from the PAC and
:04:51. > :04:54.others could jeopardise that. think the PAC were playing to the
:04:55. > :04:58.gallery a little bit. I think that is to be regreted. There is no real
:04:58. > :05:03.evidence that the big four are in the pockets of the Treasury. I
:05:03. > :05:05.think it is a very healthy state of affairs that some of our brightest
:05:05. > :05:09.best tax and accountany advisers have a chance to see the public
:05:10. > :05:14.sector in action. One of the dangers here really a danger of
:05:14. > :05:17.political risk, I think, if Britain is seen as a place where there are
:05:17. > :05:20.arbitary decisions made about tax, we are bring anything a general
:05:21. > :05:25.anti-avoidance rule as well, it might well lead to many of these
:05:25. > :05:28.big international firms of accounts, and indeed throughout the financial
:05:28. > :05:34.services world thinking twice about whether they want to expanned here.
:05:34. > :05:37.The Government is in something of a bind, they can't exactly speak out
:05:37. > :05:41.against big companies who aren't breaking the law or the letter of
:05:41. > :05:44.the law. Nor can they ignore the wish of millions of voters who have
:05:44. > :05:48.seen their real incomes fall because they can't avoid paying tax.
:05:48. > :05:54.If the Government were to clamp down hard on big multinationals and
:05:54. > :05:57.those who advise them, the danger is those companies will take their
:05:57. > :06:02.business overseas to where the taxes are few and the rules fewer.
:06:02. > :06:06.David Cameron has to pursue a global solution to the problem. He
:06:06. > :06:09.wants the EU council President, Herman van Rompuy, to raise it at
:06:09. > :06:14.the next EU summit, he will be raising it himself when he chairs
:06:14. > :06:18.the G8 in June. But the OECD that brokered many of the world's
:06:18. > :06:22.international tax treaties to prevent firms from being taxed
:06:22. > :06:27.twice feels things may have gone too far. This is really, after 70
:06:27. > :06:32.years or whatever trying to avoid double taxation, which we all
:06:32. > :06:38.agreed should be avoided, now you have double non-taxation. So the
:06:38. > :06:42.thing has gone like a pendulum. We are trying to get it back, to some
:06:42. > :06:46.sort of balance where there is a fair sharing of the burden.
:06:46. > :06:52.Otherwise it is only the middle- classes and the SMEs that are left
:06:52. > :06:56.to tax. This obviously is a politically unacceptable situation.
:06:56. > :06:59.86 years ago Oliver Wendell Holmes said that taxes were the price we
:06:59. > :07:04.pay for living in a civilised society. Back then companies and
:07:04. > :07:09.the very rich paid most taxes. Today it is increasingly smaller
:07:09. > :07:15.firms and ordinary individuals bearing most of the burden.
:07:15. > :07:20.Earlier I went to meet the businessman, John Caldwell, the
:07:20. > :07:24.Phones 4 You founder, shortly before he took to his racing car at
:07:24. > :07:27.Brands Hatch, why not, he's worth an easy billion pounds. You have
:07:27. > :07:32.been called the biggest taxpayer in Britain, does that leave you
:07:33. > :07:39.feeling like a mug or an angel? Neither. You know Britain needs all
:07:39. > :07:42.the tax pounds it can get. We are in very tough times, that is clear
:07:42. > :07:48.to everybody. People don't realise quite how indebted the country is,
:07:48. > :07:51.and what trouble the country is undergoing. We cannot afford people
:07:51. > :07:56.taking tax bucks away from us, they have to be paid. I didn't pay them
:07:56. > :08:00.just purely out of a sense of obligation. I paid because I did
:08:00. > :08:04.think it was right, but also I wanted complete freedom in a
:08:04. > :08:09.country I love more than any other. I didn't want to have to be an
:08:09. > :08:16.exile and allowed 90 days back in, I wanted complete freedom. But I
:08:16. > :08:20.also felt I needed to do my bit. it a kind of philanthropy? Yes, but
:08:20. > :08:24.unfortunately where the people you are giving your money to are
:08:24. > :08:30.frittering it away and wasting it. It feels like a mug's fill
:08:30. > :08:35.lanthropy. But ultimately -- philanthropy, but ultimately it is
:08:36. > :08:40.a legal obligation. Is there a temptation to avoid tax with the
:08:40. > :08:43.loopholes? Every businessman needs to reduce his CoS. By reducing
:08:43. > :08:48.costs and increasing profit you retain money in the business to be
:08:48. > :08:53.used for expansion. Tax is one of those big costs on the business. It
:08:54. > :08:58.is the responsibility of the chief executive to reduce the tax to a
:08:58. > :09:03.reasonable level by fair means. it wrong then to use those
:09:03. > :09:06.loopholes? This is a difficult one really. I can't say it is wrong to
:09:06. > :09:10.use them because at the end of the day each company has to reduce its
:09:10. > :09:15.tax bill to what it thinks is appropriate and fair, given the
:09:15. > :09:21.laws of the land. But I would very much favour more pressure brought
:09:21. > :09:24.to bear on people that are seen to be really taking this too far. And
:09:24. > :09:30.also the general public just considering boycotting businesses
:09:30. > :09:36.that are seen to be tax avoiding. And I can tell you for sure if the
:09:36. > :09:39.public boycotted a retail business avoiding tax and damaged their
:09:39. > :09:42.profitability they would start paying the tax. It is a name and
:09:42. > :09:47.shame campaign? It is a name and shame, it has to be today. The
:09:47. > :09:53.country is in a mess. I don't want to keep stressing that. But Britain
:09:53. > :09:58.needs all the tax pounds it can get. We know who the companies are that
:09:58. > :10:03.have been named as not full tax- payers, do you boycott any of
:10:03. > :10:06.those? I don't probably deal with them. If I do I don't know that I'm
:10:06. > :10:09.dealing with them. I would definitely boycott them. I would
:10:09. > :10:13.encourage other people. We have to do something. What does any
:10:13. > :10:17.businessman understand, he understands his bottom line. What
:10:17. > :10:21.will affect the bottom line more than anything else is not taxation,
:10:21. > :10:26.fair taxation, yes it is painful, it is a big cost to the business,
:10:26. > :10:29.but it is nowhere near a cost as not having the profit to pay the
:10:29. > :10:34.tax on. You have been converted to this line of thought, because there
:10:34. > :10:37.was a time in your business when you did use the loopholes quite
:10:37. > :10:42.happily? When I first set up business I wanted to retain every
:10:42. > :10:47.last pound in the business to help grow it. Tax accountants started
:10:47. > :10:52.flooding through the doors with tax scheme after tax scheme after tax
:10:52. > :10:55.scheme, we were seduced into a low- taxation ri geem of running the
:10:55. > :11:00.business. -- regime of running the business. It was perfectly fair and
:11:00. > :11:03.proper, but I don't agree with it now, as a point of morality,
:11:03. > :11:06.especially where we are today I don't agree that some parts of the
:11:06. > :11:10.nation should get away with very, very low tax rates, meanwhile the
:11:10. > :11:14.ordinary working people, as well as some corporates are paying the full
:11:14. > :11:19.rate. We need to club together. Wasn't it legislation that actually
:11:19. > :11:23.stopped you, wasn't it when Gordon Brown put an end to those employee
:11:23. > :11:29.benefit trusts? Not really because I was already thinking these tax
:11:29. > :11:33.schemes are just wrong. They are challengable. To an extent some of
:11:33. > :11:36.them are perfectly fair and proper, a lot of them are leading and
:11:36. > :11:40.cutting edge. Some of those can be stopped, but some are not stopped.
:11:40. > :11:44.But the law can only do so much. Then what we need to create in the
:11:44. > :11:50.country, a bit like speeding. At one time I could speed every day
:11:50. > :11:53.and nobody would frown. It is a good line as Brands Hatch!
:11:53. > :11:58.whenever I speed, try not to, whenever I speed you are frowned
:11:58. > :12:04.upon. We need to do that with taxation. That it becomes immoral,
:12:04. > :12:08.unket kal and against the public -- unethical and against the interest
:12:09. > :12:12.for certain sectors to get away with paying very low tax. Let's
:12:12. > :12:17.discuss the morality of taxation. Joining me is John Christensen,
:12:17. > :12:27.brought up in jersey, but now director of the Tax Justice Network,
:12:27. > :12:31.and the economist minutes ter Tim Congdon. You heard the last point
:12:31. > :12:38.that he said he wanted the tax to be the new speeding or smoking,
:12:38. > :12:42.something increasingly frowned upon by society, tax avoidance?
:12:42. > :12:46.Governments want enterprise, enterprise comes from companies,
:12:46. > :12:53.and all around the world what is happening is that Governments are
:12:53. > :12:56.reducing company tax rates. Take it or leave it really. You can't have
:12:56. > :13:02.all this rhetoric about enterprise and then say you want to have
:13:02. > :13:07.higher taxes. Enterprise is not how you can manage your own tax bills
:13:07. > :13:11.down is it? The only way you can pay tax is by producing something.
:13:11. > :13:15.Producing a profit in the case of the company. And obviously if you
:13:15. > :13:19.are not producing something and not generating a profit you can't pay
:13:19. > :13:23.any tax. So clearly if you want nations that are prosperous,
:13:23. > :13:28.companies that are profitable, I'm afraid that will happen. They can't
:13:28. > :13:31.all be swallowed up in tax. This is the argument often made, John
:13:31. > :13:35.Christensen, that if your aim is to get growth and encourage employment
:13:35. > :13:39.and all the rest of it, don't keep hitting them. The tax rates are low
:13:39. > :13:42.any way, they are very low in this country, they are much lower than
:13:42. > :13:46.they were 30 years ago. Many companies are making huge profits.
:13:46. > :13:50.But the company directors are making the choice to not pay that
:13:50. > :13:54.tax. Some companies, multinational companies, can shift their profits
:13:54. > :14:00.off to tax havens, Luxembourg or whatever, they make that choice to
:14:00. > :14:03.not pay tax. Other companies here in Britain making a profit can't
:14:03. > :14:08.use Luxembourg or the channel islands to shift their profits,
:14:08. > :14:12.they are forced to pay tax. You had heard the point made, if people
:14:12. > :14:15.really cared, and yes there is loot of public outrage and rhetoric
:14:15. > :14:19.about this, if people really cared wouldn't they just boycott the
:14:19. > :14:23.companies that we know don't pay what is considered to be their fair
:14:24. > :14:27.share of tax? I'm very much in favour of boycotts and reputational
:14:27. > :14:33.damage to those companies that choose to not pay tax when they are
:14:33. > :14:36.making profits. I don't think that the tax rate in this country in any
:14:36. > :14:40.way stifles innovation or enterprise, it is a very low tax
:14:40. > :14:44.rate, yet companies are still choosing to avoid tax very
:14:44. > :14:47.aggressively. It is certainly true that the current policy of the
:14:47. > :14:53.Conservative Government is to reduce corporation tax. In fact to
:14:53. > :14:56.reduce it 20%. It is certainly true that a long time ago it was 52% the
:14:56. > :15:00.corporation tax rate. Things have change. But we live in a
:15:00. > :15:05.competitive world. If other countries are not going to impose
:15:05. > :15:10.high corporate taxes what do we do? So what would be your point then,
:15:10. > :15:16.that it is fine as long as it is not illegal to do whatever you can.
:15:16. > :15:22.You disagree with John Caudwell? people are obeying the law, and
:15:22. > :15:29.paying taxes according to the statute book, then what is, what
:15:29. > :15:39.are they supposed to be doing wrong. There has to be at some point an
:15:39. > :15:42.understanding that if companies and tax-payers are abiding by the law
:15:43. > :15:45.they should be left alone. Surely the Government could simplify the
:15:45. > :15:49.tax system or finding a way that saying we and the public have
:15:49. > :15:52.decide this is wrong, we will outlaw it like speeding or smoking
:15:52. > :15:56.indoors? It is not that simple. The Prime Minister has recognised that
:15:56. > :15:59.the rules set out at an international level are not fit for
:15:59. > :16:02.purpose. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and
:16:02. > :16:08.Development has been charged with redesigning the rules. We need new
:16:08. > :16:10.rules for the 21st century. We cannot leave it as it is at the
:16:10. > :16:16.moment. To the discretion of some companies, multinational companies
:16:16. > :16:19.to shift their profits to tax havens and not pay tax, whilst
:16:20. > :16:24.other companies operating here in Britain just at national level have
:16:24. > :16:29.to pay tax. What of the question of companies get up and leaving?
:16:29. > :16:31.won't. You say that with real confidence? For decades they have
:16:31. > :16:39.been saying they will. important thing is company
:16:39. > :16:45.shareholders are taxed, as long as they taxed it will be difficult for
:16:45. > :16:49.companies to do that. There was a 52% tax rate a few years ago.
:16:49. > :16:52.Shareholders have all moved off shore, they are in tax havens
:16:52. > :16:57.themselves, they are not paying tax on the dividends. That is the real
:16:57. > :17:01.world we live in. Capital is offshore and not paying tax. What
:17:01. > :17:04.would happen if the loopholes were closed what would happen to the tax
:17:04. > :17:11.system. There is an argument which is that if more people, if everyone
:17:11. > :17:14.pays their fair share of tax the tax burden actual lie goes down?
:17:14. > :17:18.Let's be clear that all these things built up over a long period
:17:18. > :17:24.of time, and you can't say, for example, that you can't companies
:17:24. > :17:29.to invest in research and development F you want to encourage
:17:29. > :17:34.them to do that you put in place incentives. The tax system has the
:17:34. > :17:36.exemptions, companies use them. If you want a neutral tax system these
:17:36. > :17:41.politicians, these Governments should stop talking about giving
:17:41. > :17:45.them incentives for R & D and investment. Just pull back and the
:17:45. > :17:49.tax rate is 30%, that's that. Governments aren't doing that.
:17:49. > :17:52.People don't complain when they get cheaper on-line goods. They don't
:17:52. > :17:58.complain that is a rather interesting and efficient way to do
:17:58. > :18:02.your shopping now, even if the company is known to be not as forth
:18:02. > :18:07.coming? We are losing jobs, small businesses are being put out of
:18:07. > :18:14.business. Some companies are now putting themselves into monopoly
:18:14. > :18:18.situations that means they will be making massive profits untaxed not
:18:18. > :18:22.contributing this country. These companies use our infrastructure
:18:22. > :18:24.and they need a good market. It is not right that they don't pay tax
:18:24. > :18:28.in this country while competitors are paying tax.
:18:28. > :18:32.Thank you very much. If you are looking for controversy you
:18:32. > :18:36.probably won't find it on the new �5 note. Winston Churchill, not in
:18:36. > :18:42.the end David Beckham, was the choice. War time leader and Nobel
:18:42. > :18:45.Peace Prize win he, the choice will surprise few. Tonight we will hear
:18:45. > :18:50.why his appearance may also have been a factor in the decision to
:18:50. > :18:53.put him on our cash. I would say to the House as I said to those who
:18:53. > :19:01.joined the Government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil,
:19:01. > :19:04.tears and sweat. The choice was ultimately down to the outgoing
:19:04. > :19:08.Bank of England governor. Winston Churchill was a great national
:19:08. > :19:14.leader, a great British statesman and perhaps most of all universally
:19:14. > :19:17.recognised as such by everyone around the world. Here is a few of
:19:17. > :19:20.the other people the public nominated before the Bank of
:19:20. > :19:26.England made its ruling. It seems none of them were good enough for
:19:26. > :19:33.the ultimate English A-list, just what does it take?
:19:33. > :19:38.Before you start believing those are pound notes we should talk you
:19:38. > :19:41.through this. We have historian Susannah Lipscombe and Pam West a
:19:41. > :19:45.bank note collector. Thank you very much for coming in. Talk us through
:19:45. > :19:50.palm you have got some of your notes here that you have collected,
:19:50. > :19:54.when they are choosing these figures that are going to dominate
:19:54. > :19:59.our money, it just about cultural icons or is there something to do
:19:59. > :20:03.with the appearance and the look that they choose as well? They
:20:03. > :20:08.often have chosen people that would be hard to imitate, for example to
:20:08. > :20:15.forge. That takes part of their choice in the process. But they are
:20:15. > :20:19.choosing people that have also not caused any controversy. Who are
:20:19. > :20:23.iconic, who are important people that hopefully we would recognise,
:20:23. > :20:28.but as long as we know we recognise sterling we are happy with the
:20:28. > :20:32.pound in our pocket. What did you mean, who would be hard to forge?
:20:32. > :20:37.Because you might have somebody, we have had Darwin, for instance, he
:20:37. > :20:41.has a beard. A beard is often very difficult for a forger to imitate.
:20:41. > :20:46.So we should look for a lot of facial hair generally on our bank
:20:46. > :20:50.notes? It could be. Who else have you got here, talk us through this.
:20:50. > :20:57.This is massive this one? This is the old white fiver. People often
:20:57. > :21:03.say it is massive and like a fish it is "this" big. This went out in
:21:03. > :21:10.the 1960, the last date of issue was the 20th September 1956,
:21:10. > :21:17.followed by the lion and key five pound with the head of Britannia.
:21:17. > :21:21.We moved on to Stevenson and then subsequently Elizabeth Fry our
:21:21. > :21:27.current icon. We know that Winston Churchill will be next. The
:21:27. > :21:33.interesting thing is why he hasn't figured before?'S A pretty obvious
:21:33. > :21:38.choice, isn't he. Quite uncontroversial to go for wirblg.
:21:38. > :21:44.I'm sure he -- Winston Churchill. I'm sure he deserves the honour of
:21:44. > :21:49.going on a �5 note or a bigger one. Whilst it is an obvious choice it
:21:49. > :21:52.means it is moving Elizabeth Fry off. She might not be that well
:21:52. > :21:56.known, but she was IRA former and an important character in the
:21:56. > :22:02.history that we want to tell about ourselves. And this is interesting.
:22:02. > :22:09.What do you think that is, do you think we're now going for a sort of
:22:09. > :22:13.great leader rather than a revolutionary? That is the first
:22:13. > :22:16.thing we have to think about. We are choosing a Great War time
:22:16. > :22:19.leader. Because we are in austere times and we need national unity?
:22:19. > :22:26.Certainly the quote they have chosen from him is sort of
:22:26. > :22:30.appealing to that sense, doesn't it. "I have nothing but blood, toil,
:22:30. > :22:34.tears and sweat". It feels like the economy climate today. It is
:22:34. > :22:37.interesting that Elizabeth Fry was put on the notes in 202, at a time
:22:37. > :22:41.when you think they were appealing more to the sense of social reform.
:22:41. > :22:46.The other thing about it. Perhaps it plays to the idea that you need
:22:46. > :22:52.a beard to be hard to copy is that with Elizabeth Fry again, we won't
:22:52. > :22:55.have any women but the Queen on the bank nights. There was Florence
:22:55. > :23:02.Nightingale at one point? There was. But they are few and far between.
:23:02. > :23:10.How is it actually chosen. Is there such a thing as a Conservative-led
:23:10. > :23:13.choice as opposed to a Labour-led choice? Well Roger Withington, a
:23:14. > :23:18.designer of bank notes in earlier years. He produced a list of 72
:23:19. > :23:27.names of people that would be potentially good people to have on
:23:27. > :23:31.the bank note. Some of those have been chosen. I would really love to
:23:31. > :23:35.see Jane Austen or the Bronte sisters. It would be lovely to see
:23:35. > :23:40.another woman, apart from a great woman, the Queen. This is the other
:23:40. > :23:45.thing, when we put up the ones on our screen we have chosen people
:23:45. > :23:50.that the public love. The Diana figure, the Beckham, you know, the
:23:51. > :23:56.musicians and so on. That is never going to happen is it? They have to
:23:56. > :24:02.be dead. So from that perspective. However, these are people that we
:24:02. > :24:08.know from our time, they are our historic icons. They are famous for
:24:08. > :24:11.various things. They are great people, there is no doubting that.
:24:11. > :24:15.But generally the bank notes have had people who have come from a
:24:15. > :24:18.much earlier period in time. Does it surprise you that we choose
:24:18. > :24:22.people, as we were hearing, who aren't controversial, we have not
:24:23. > :24:27.been a country that is scared of controversy have we? No, that is an
:24:27. > :24:30.interesting decision actually not to go for controversy. And perhaps
:24:30. > :24:34.in this case we have gone for the really, really safe option. But
:24:34. > :24:39.actually I think there is a bit more to it. It does seem to me that
:24:39. > :24:42.the bank notes are representing a version of history. On �50 notes it
:24:42. > :24:46.is telling about the Industrial Revolution. Charless Darwin, you
:24:46. > :24:50.mentioned, is on another bank note. Adam Smith on another. It is the
:24:50. > :24:54.sort of version of ourselves. I think that we do want to insist
:24:54. > :24:58.that this version is modern and up- to-date. Even in the people it
:24:58. > :25:01.chooses to represent about our history. Because this is a version
:25:01. > :25:07.of history and we need to be conscious of that. Thank you very
:25:07. > :25:10.much, thanks you both for coming in. It was an idea the author couldn't
:25:10. > :25:13.initially contemplate that his quietly brilliant book written
:25:14. > :25:18.inside the head of a troubled boy could become a musical with a live
:25:18. > :25:25.audience. Of it a book he insisted about difference not disability. It
:25:25. > :25:27.was a move he resisted for long. Then a few weeks ago The Curious
:25:27. > :25:30.Incident of the Dog in the Night- Tmie hit the West End and the
:25:30. > :25:37.audience, at least, has never looked back. Steve Smith has gone
:25:37. > :25:40.to meet the author, Mark Haddon. is a book about the kid with
:25:40. > :25:44.behavioural problems living in Swindon with his dad who a plumber
:25:44. > :25:49.and heating engineer. As a recipe for a best seller it is not great,
:25:49. > :25:53.is it? It is not good for your mental health to think I have sold
:25:53. > :25:56.six million copies. I said it was like having a fantasy that your car
:25:56. > :26:00.could fly. It is like people do. And then you are going down the
:26:00. > :26:03.motorway one day and your car does actually fly. And you think this is
:26:03. > :26:08.what I dreamed about, but it is really scaring me at the moment. It
:26:08. > :26:12.is a little bit like that. It is probably easier to have a flying
:26:12. > :26:16.car than sell six million copies these days. I'm going to find out
:26:16. > :26:20.who killed Wellington. Somebody killed her dog? With a fork. Mark
:26:20. > :26:26.Haddon's unlikely best seller about a boy with behavioural issues is
:26:26. > :26:32.now a West End hit. Up for eight Olivier Awards on Sunday.
:26:32. > :26:37.family Christopher? Father and mother, but mother is dead.
:26:37. > :26:41.there any of you in that voice, there are theories that we're all
:26:41. > :26:46.somewhere on that spectrum, particularly men! There is lots of
:26:46. > :26:50.me in Christopher in a sense that the novel contains narrative
:26:50. > :26:55.chapters and essays about science or religion or about evolution
:26:55. > :26:59.inbetween the narrative chapters, those are me. They are my
:26:59. > :27:03.obsessions chopped in little pieces and inserted into the novel. In
:27:03. > :27:07.Christopher of course there are bits of me, there is bits of me in
:27:07. > :27:11.everything. Haddon started out writing children's books,
:27:11. > :27:14.illustrating them himself. Down to his characters and a certain boy
:27:14. > :27:19.wizard children's fiction is hot property. Some take a Dance
:27:19. > :27:23.Schooler view. Wasn't it most infamously Martin Amis who said if
:27:23. > :27:27.he had brain-damage he could write a children's book. He hasn't
:27:27. > :27:32.stepped up to the mark and proved it yet has he. There are peculiar
:27:32. > :27:36.and difficult skills to writing children's books, ten years ago it
:27:36. > :27:39.was film script writing courses where all the men would turn up in
:27:39. > :27:43.expensive cars and pull up on the gravel and be hard work when it
:27:43. > :27:48.came to working with them in workshops. Parently those courses
:27:48. > :27:51.are now relaxed and the cars are a little scruffyier. The same people
:27:51. > :27:56.seem to be going to the kids' writing courses turning up in
:27:56. > :27:59.flashy cars and more men than you might expect. There is a lot of
:27:59. > :28:02.debate about how we raise children, I wonder what thoughts you have
:28:02. > :28:06.about that? It is so tempting isn't it when you sell a lot of books to
:28:06. > :28:10.think you actually know what you are talking about when someone asks
:28:10. > :28:15.a question about. That I don't know anything more than any other parent
:28:15. > :28:19.does. I think we do get obsessed with the education of really bright
:28:19. > :28:23.children. I think what school needs to do is put a huge amount of
:28:23. > :28:27.effort into the kids who might get left behind. If you get a poor
:28:27. > :28:32.education you're probably getting most of it at school. Therefore the
:28:33. > :28:36.responsibility school has to you is so much greater. Stkpwhrpld I like
:28:36. > :28:42.maths and also I like outer space and I like being on my own.
:28:42. > :28:47.Haddon says he's happy to put his money where his mouth is, as the
:28:47. > :28:51.royalty cheques roll in, he would like to pay more tax. It is
:28:51. > :28:54.absolutely extraordinary at the moment that the money we pay to
:28:55. > :29:00.disabled people for what was previously the Disability Living
:29:00. > :29:04.Allowance is being cut, and at the same time I'm getting a tax cut. It
:29:04. > :29:08.absolutely beggers belief. That is supposed to invent advise you as a
:29:08. > :29:13.winner and achieve Tory hire more people, I think, is isn't that the
:29:13. > :29:17.theory? Do you know I really don't know what the theory is. I don't
:29:17. > :29:21.think there is much theory behind t I think there is a profound lack of
:29:21. > :29:26.empathy behind it. You can find Mark Haddon in the book shops and
:29:26. > :29:29.theatre and keep an eye out for him on the bus. I sit on a bus
:29:29. > :29:34.overhearing other people's conversations. I love the fact that
:29:34. > :29:37.it opens doors into 100 lives. You are sitting next to a couple of
:29:37. > :29:42.elderly ladies talking about how good the Harvest Festival was this
:29:42. > :29:47.year. And you think I know those lives. It is difficult to stay in
:29:47. > :29:52.touch and pick up those cues that you refer to, with the best will in
:29:52. > :29:59.the world? You keep travelling on the bus, don't you. I don't know,
:29:59. > :30:03.do you? Not in the publishers's limo? I singularly failed to set up
:30:03. > :30:13.a gilded life for myself. I'm rubbing up against ordinary people
:30:13. > :30:43.