:00:14. > :00:17.Should we intervene in Syria and even if we wanted to could we
:00:17. > :00:20.afford to? Tonight the Defence Secretary says more evidence of
:00:20. > :00:25.chemical weapons is needed before Britain can act.
:00:25. > :00:29.But can Britain even think of remaining a first-rate military
:00:29. > :00:34.power as this Government hopes? Should we ring-fence the defence
:00:34. > :00:38.budget for curtail their ambitions? The Defence Secretary Philip
:00:38. > :00:40.Hammond in Washington for talks with the Americans will join us
:00:41. > :00:44.live. Also tonight, from Pakistan we meet
:00:44. > :00:48.the Mullah who thinks women should be educated to know their
:00:48. > :00:52.boundaries. He has some advice for our reporter.
:00:52. > :00:56.TRANSLATION: As a Muslim, first of all you should be wearing a burka,
:00:56. > :01:00.according to Sharia Law. Secondly, you shouldn't be travelling around
:01:00. > :01:03.without a male chaperone. The polls have just closed, the
:01:03. > :01:11.politicians are getting their excuses ready. We will have the
:01:11. > :01:16.latest on the local elections. And happy birthday Bollywood, 100
:01:16. > :01:22.years young tomorrow. How has it reflected Indian culture and
:01:22. > :01:29.informed snim film makers here. We discuss with a Bollywood actress
:01:29. > :01:33.and the director of Bride ska Prejudice.
:01:33. > :01:37.Good evening, the Cabinet Office website is clear, national security
:01:37. > :01:41.is the first duty of Government. We will remain a first-rate military
:01:41. > :01:45.power. But even as British troops begin to leave Afghanistan, there
:01:45. > :01:49.are new shaud shadows and threats. Tonight the American Defence
:01:49. > :01:53.Secretary, Chuck Hagel, said for the first time that the Obinna
:01:53. > :01:57.administration is re-thinking whether to arm -- Obama
:01:57. > :02:01.administration is re-thinking whether to arm rebels in Syria. No
:02:02. > :02:07.decision has been named. With this comes an age-old problem, money.
:02:07. > :02:09.With the security review and cuts to the budget already announced,
:02:09. > :02:14.the Royal United Services Institute suggests another �11 billion will
:02:14. > :02:19.have to be loped off defence over the next decade. Should we ring-
:02:19. > :02:22.fence defence, as with the NHS and foreign aid, or be less ambitious
:02:22. > :02:29.in our foreign commitments. We will explore with the Defence Secretary
:02:29. > :02:38.in a moment. First a series of hard choices.
:02:38. > :02:44.Just as Gordon Brown tried to abolish boom and bust economics, so
:02:44. > :02:48.they came to rescue the defence budget from its post-war boom with
:02:48. > :02:53.cuts to balance the books. In 2010, during the last review, they tried
:02:53. > :03:01.to set sustainable limits on future operations. The forces might mount
:03:01. > :03:06.one short-term deployment of up to 30,000. Or, one enduring one of
:03:06. > :03:13.6,500, with two smaller simultaneous operations of around
:03:13. > :03:18.2,000 and 1,000. Or three sustained small-scale operations. The current
:03:18. > :03:22.enduring commitment in Afghanistan is coming to an end. UK forces no
:03:22. > :03:28.longer launch combat operations, many are now just packing up. But
:03:28. > :03:32.their presence remains risky as we have seen this week. There are
:03:32. > :03:37.around 7,000 British personnel there now, and by late 2014 that
:03:37. > :03:41.presence will end. But military chiefs are nervous about new
:03:41. > :03:46.commitments. The Prime Minister wants to send more troops to Africa,
:03:46. > :03:50.and a possible Syrian intervention could involve thousands. The
:03:51. > :03:53.prospect of further cuts as part of the Government's deficit reduction
:03:53. > :03:59.programme has produced public grumbling from the Defence
:03:59. > :04:02.Secretary, Tory backbenchers are increasingly restive and demanding
:04:02. > :04:08.ring-fencing defence or raiding international development instead.
:04:08. > :04:14.Protecting up to now in order to make good the shortfall at MoD. And
:04:14. > :04:19.costs within the department have risen too, the F-35 fighter project
:04:19. > :04:24.has increased its price tag and is running years late. After
:04:24. > :04:29.expressing an initial interest in acquiring more than 130 of them,
:04:29. > :04:33.Britain looks set to trim that back to just 48. Both F-35 and the
:04:33. > :04:39.aircraft carrier that will launch the aircraft haven't been helped by
:04:39. > :04:43.a Government flip-flop. Initially towards a more capable, catapult-
:04:43. > :04:45.launched version of the plane and back to the short take-off version
:04:45. > :04:50.originally ordered. In terms of the cost of the aircraft carriers
:04:50. > :04:55.themselves, it was originally estimated at �3.65 billion, now
:04:55. > :05:01.around �6 billion, but some estimates suggest they soon
:05:02. > :05:04.eventually weigh in at something closer to �12 billion. Cost
:05:04. > :05:11.overruns have a history of consuming other parts of the
:05:11. > :05:15.defence budget, leading to cuts and cancellations. The slow but
:05:15. > :05:19.inexorable downLuiz Eduardo slide in squadrons or battalions has
:05:19. > :05:25.slowly reduced national forces. Therefore, it could be argued the
:05:25. > :05:30.UK's influence goes. Back in the 1950s 11% of Britain's economy or
:05:30. > :05:35.GDP was devoted to defence. For the last few years it has hovered
:05:35. > :05:39.around 2%. The UK's defence resources may have diminished but
:05:39. > :05:44.its leaders still like to retain an influence in world affairs.
:05:44. > :05:47.The Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, has been meeting with his
:05:47. > :05:51.US counterpart, Chuck Hagel, in Washington today. He joins us from
:05:51. > :05:55.there. Good evening to you Mr Hammond. Chuck Hagel says that the
:05:55. > :05:59.Americans are now re-thinking this question of arming the Syrian
:05:59. > :06:02.opposition, given the doubts that some have expressed, including
:06:02. > :06:07.yourself about whether chemical weapons really have been used or
:06:07. > :06:12.not, what is there to re-think? Well, the Americans have said today
:06:12. > :06:16.that they are re-thinking whether to use, whether to supply weapons
:06:16. > :06:21.to the opposition? We have never closed off that option. We
:06:21. > :06:25.currently have a European arms embargo which expires at the end of
:06:25. > :06:30.May. We haven't yet decided what approach we are going to take to
:06:30. > :06:34.any renewal on modification of that embargo. We want to keep all our
:06:34. > :06:37.options open as we work out the best way to deal with this
:06:37. > :06:41.despicable regime, which is slaughtering its people by the
:06:41. > :06:48.thousands. Indeed, but given the reports about chemical weapons what
:06:48. > :06:52.more do you need, what would be your red line? In terms,
:06:52. > :06:56.specifically of chemical weapon usage, I think we have been very
:06:56. > :07:01.clear that we have evidence which is quite compelling but is not
:07:01. > :07:05.conclusive around the use of chemical weapons. Now the use of
:07:05. > :07:10.chemical weapons is explicitly illegal under international law. If
:07:10. > :07:16.we are going to build an interNational Coalition behind a
:07:16. > :07:22.response to a use of chemical weapons, we have to have evidence
:07:22. > :07:26.that has happened. We need to build that evidence in a form that is
:07:26. > :07:28.incontravertable and can be present today the international community
:07:28. > :07:35.ideally in the forum of the United Nations Security Council. That is
:07:35. > :07:38.hugely difficult to do, to be 100% certain in a closed-off area, where
:07:38. > :07:42.chemical weapons have been used. Is it going to happen again and again
:07:42. > :07:47.and again, you will have evidence which is not going to be 100%, more
:07:47. > :07:51.people will die? Firstly, the United Nations of course has
:07:51. > :07:55.mandated a mission to Syria to investigate the use of chemical
:07:55. > :07:59.weapons. This was something that initial low the Syrian Government
:07:59. > :08:03.itself -- initially the Syrian Government itself encouraged. They
:08:03. > :08:12.are currently blocking access. We demand the Syrian Government admits
:08:12. > :08:18.the UN team and co-operates with the UN team. We are not looking
:08:18. > :08:22.solely on that route, we are looking with allies for ways to
:08:22. > :08:27.validate chemical weapons usage. wonder what you say to the very
:08:27. > :08:30.good friend of the UK, senator John McCain, saying you have all the
:08:30. > :08:34.evidence you need about the awfulness of this ray genome and
:08:34. > :08:38.chemical weapons but you are stalling because and the Obama
:08:38. > :08:43.administration don't want to get involved in a mess? We have plenty
:08:43. > :08:46.of evidence of the awfulness of the regime, but John McCain is wrong if
:08:46. > :08:49.he says we have conclusive evidence of the use of chemical weapons. We
:08:49. > :08:56.have certainly got some very persuasive evidence. If we set
:08:56. > :09:01.ourselves the test of whether this evidence would be persuasive in a
:09:01. > :09:06.UK or a US court we still don't have evidence of that quality.
:09:06. > :09:11.Given the experience that we have had in both the UK and the US in
:09:12. > :09:15.relation to the Iraq War and the evidence that was presented to
:09:15. > :09:22.support our intervention there, I think it is very clear that our
:09:22. > :09:28.publics will expect us to leave no stone unturned in establishing that
:09:28. > :09:33.the evidence is compelling and conclusive before we take any
:09:33. > :09:36.further action. Chuck Hagel also said you have been advising him
:09:36. > :09:41.today on how to cut defence budgets, what have you been tell him? We are
:09:41. > :09:46.a couple of years ahead of the US, I'm afraid, in this area. We
:09:46. > :09:51.carried out our defence review in 2010. Since then we have been
:09:51. > :09:55.restructuring the way we deliver defence. Making our Armed Forces
:09:55. > :09:59.smaller but better equipped and more agile. Focusing on
:09:59. > :10:04.deployability to make our forces usable. And also taking out large
:10:04. > :10:09.chunks of the Ministry of Defence, about a third of the civilian man
:10:09. > :10:13.power that we have in defence. Doing things differently. We
:10:13. > :10:18.announced just last week that we are moving into the next phase of a
:10:18. > :10:23.process of looking at bringing private sector partners into the
:10:23. > :10:26.procurement of defence equipment to try to overcome some of the long
:10:26. > :10:29.standing persistent problems that there have been around delivering
:10:29. > :10:34.these big equipment programmes on time and on budget. We have got
:10:34. > :10:38.quite a lot that we can offer the United States by way of experience.
:10:39. > :10:43.Also, by co-operating together with the US we can drive further
:10:43. > :10:46.efficencies in the delivery of military equipment and indeed in
:10:46. > :10:52.the delivery of military capability. You have further cuts ahead and the
:10:52. > :10:56.defence budget was about 4% of GDP20 years ago, it is 2% of GDP
:10:56. > :11:06.now. Should the defence budget be ring-fenced if national security is
:11:06. > :11:09.
:11:09. > :11:16.the first duty of Government as the Cabinet Office website says.
:11:16. > :11:21.have to resource defence properly to cover the things outlined in the
:11:21. > :11:26.budget. Should it be ring-fenced? We have identified the outputs we
:11:26. > :11:29.have to deliver. We have to deliver those outputs. So it should be
:11:29. > :11:33.ring-fenced then? Ring-fencing implies that you fix the cash
:11:33. > :11:37.amount. What I'm more interested in is not the cash amount but the
:11:37. > :11:41.output that we are delivering. If there are more efficient, smarter
:11:41. > :11:45.ways of delivering the defence output that we need, then we
:11:45. > :11:49.absolutely should investigate those. For example, we currently spend
:11:49. > :11:54.about �7 billion a year on supporting our existing equipment
:11:54. > :11:58.in service. We have started to look with the Treasury, with the Cabinet
:11:58. > :12:01.Office at some of those contracts, how we could restructure them, how
:12:01. > :12:07.we could incentivise the contractors who support us in
:12:07. > :12:11.different ways to make that support of our equipment more efficient and
:12:11. > :12:14.more effective. That is a net win. As you know the NHS, schools and
:12:14. > :12:18.the foreign aid budget is supposedly ring-fenced, are you
:12:18. > :12:22.really going to argue they are more important than what is the first
:12:22. > :12:29.duty of Government? Well, look, those budgets are ring-fenced
:12:29. > :12:32.because we made commitments to ring-fence them. There is a very
:12:33. > :12:38.strong and cogent view that if politicians make promises, we made
:12:38. > :12:40.promises in both the case of the health budget and the overseas aid
:12:40. > :12:45.budget. Would you have to take money from those budgets to help
:12:45. > :12:48.out your budget? If we make promises we should stick to them.
:12:48. > :12:52.Health and defence have a very close collaboration already.
:12:52. > :12:59.Defence medical services is dependant on the NHS for staff to
:12:59. > :13:04.provide our frontline services in Afghanistan. The NHS supports us in
:13:04. > :13:07.that way. Defence medical services works very closely with the NHS, we
:13:07. > :13:10.should try to make that co- operation more efficient and more
:13:10. > :13:14.effective. Some of that loose change for first-rate military
:13:14. > :13:18.powers, with respect, you may make some very sound savings and you may
:13:18. > :13:21.be able to redistribute a bit of money, but this is not going to be
:13:21. > :13:30.the first-rate military power you would like and the military would
:13:30. > :13:33.like in the future, is it? The UK retains a broad speck strum
:13:33. > :13:37.military -- spectrum military capability. We are the United
:13:37. > :13:40.States's most capable partner, we intend to remain that way. We will
:13:40. > :13:45.still have, even after this process the fourth-largest defence budget
:13:45. > :13:51.in the world. So don't let's talk ourselves down. Let's focus on what
:13:51. > :13:53.we are doing to make sure that the budget we have delivers the maximum
:13:53. > :14:00.possible amount of military capability. Not just expressed in
:14:00. > :14:03.terms of numbers, but expressed in terms of their ability to deliver
:14:03. > :14:07.military effect. There are many countries around the world with
:14:07. > :14:11.bigger militaries than our's, they are not as deployable or as usable
:14:11. > :14:14.or as effective. Just a final thought on the big political topic
:14:14. > :14:17.tonight, which is obviously the polls have closed, the mid-term
:14:17. > :14:22.elections in which local Government elections, mid-term Governments
:14:22. > :14:25.usually get hammered, is that what you were expecting? Well, we're a
:14:25. > :14:29.mid-term Government, we are a Government that has taken some
:14:29. > :14:33.incredibly tough decisions to clean up the mess that we interited from
:14:33. > :14:39.the previous Labour Government -- inherited from the previous
:14:39. > :14:42.Government. We are also fighting these elections over a high water
:14:42. > :14:47.mark of discontent with the previous Government when the last
:14:47. > :14:50.local elections were held. We are expecting to lose seats, any point
:14:50. > :14:54.in this cycle against that backdrop would be expect to go lose seats.
:14:54. > :14:59.Labour has to make significant gains to have any credibility at
:14:59. > :15:01.all. Have you decided as a party whether UKIP are a bunch of clowns
:15:01. > :15:05.and loonies, as some leading Conservatives think, or whether
:15:05. > :15:12.they are actually just disaffected Conservatives who should be brought
:15:12. > :15:17.back into the fold? I think UKIP represents the disaffected of the
:15:17. > :15:24.electorate. There always has to be a party which people who are just
:15:24. > :15:27.disaffected with politics can vote for. For much of the last few
:15:27. > :15:32.decades the Liberal Democrats provided that role. But now they
:15:32. > :15:36.are a part of the Government many dissident voters who simply want to
:15:36. > :15:40.say "none of the above" will have to find a new place to go. I
:15:40. > :15:46.suspect that UKIP is attracting some of those voters. I shouldn't
:15:46. > :15:50.avoid the fact that the agenda that UKIP has put forward has identified
:15:50. > :15:56.some issues which are of concern to voters, not just Conservatives, but
:15:56. > :15:58.across the spectrum. And it is a challenge, a quite proper challenge,
:15:58. > :16:03.to the mainstream political parties to address those concerns, take
:16:03. > :16:07.them head on and deal with them if we want to persuade those voters
:16:07. > :16:11.that come the general election they should vote Conservative in order
:16:11. > :16:15.to get a Government which is committed to a referendum on the
:16:15. > :16:20.European Union and committed to renegotiating with the European
:16:20. > :16:21.Union the terms on which we would be prepared to remain members of
:16:22. > :16:29.that union. Secretary of State thank you very
:16:29. > :16:39.much for joining us from Washington. Still to come:
:16:39. > :16:39.
:16:39. > :16:43.Hurray for Bollywood, celebrating 100 years of Indian cinema.
:16:43. > :16:46.The polls have closed, the excuses are being made ready by politicians
:16:46. > :16:50.of the various parties who perhaps expect to do less well than
:16:50. > :16:54.expected. It will take a while to figure out who is up and who is
:16:54. > :16:58.down, the local elections in many areas of England and Wales, but our
:16:58. > :17:01.political editor joins us from the count in Harlow in Essex.
:17:01. > :17:06.A lot of people are doing their expectation management, or
:17:06. > :17:10.preparing to do so. I wondered if you can cut through it and tell us
:17:11. > :17:14.what is going on? Gavin that is incredibly hard in the best of
:17:14. > :17:18.years but this year even more so. This is the first one where UKIP
:17:18. > :17:21.makes its splash and we figure out just how much water is displaced
:17:21. > :17:30.around the country. Downing Street are briefing they are expecting
:17:30. > :17:34.losses for the Conservatives of around 550, 5780 80. -- 580. If you
:17:34. > :17:37.slash off 150 that is about 400 losses, the last time they won
:17:37. > :17:41.these was at high water mark before the last election and Gordon Brown
:17:41. > :17:45.was doing badly. 400 is what independent analysts are telling us
:17:45. > :17:49.what they will get. The losses are bad, but I don't think it is
:17:49. > :17:53.Armageddon, especially when you look at the UKIP unknown factor.
:17:53. > :17:56.One of the things choppy in every party HQ this evening is exactly
:17:56. > :18:00.how UKIP has affected that. People can't quite call it when orderly
:18:00. > :18:04.about this time of night you do get some certain ideas. Somewhere like
:18:04. > :18:08.here in Essex where the boxes have come in, I think Labour have
:18:08. > :18:13.probably done pretty well. Labour are quietly confident this evening.
:18:13. > :18:17.They get a around possibly, and it falls here, they could be looking
:18:17. > :18:22.at 350 gains. Again last time it was a very, very low point for them.
:18:22. > :18:25.So 350 is sort of where they should be getting, equally if they weren't
:18:25. > :18:33.getting it you can be sure they will be in for a kicking tomorrow.
:18:33. > :18:37.We don't quit he -- quite know. UKIP, if it does end up being
:18:37. > :18:41.isolated on the right flank, it end up seeing some Lib Dems coming
:18:41. > :18:45.through the middle, then that last fiendish question, the trouble for
:18:45. > :18:48.me with UKIP, one of them is their own ranks brief different things.
:18:48. > :18:53.When you are trying to bust the spin, you are trying to bust the
:18:53. > :18:57.spin within them. Some are saying yeah that 100 is still within sight,
:18:57. > :19:01.they crested and give everyone a shock. Others are saying, no, we
:19:01. > :19:05.really do have a problem of being spread so evenly across the country
:19:05. > :19:09.that actually we can't achieve the spikes we need to be getting the
:19:09. > :19:13.council seats they think about 40, 50. Independent people I speak to,
:19:13. > :19:17.who have their own little secret models think that is probably more
:19:17. > :19:20.right. We just simply do not know, it will probably be about lunchtime
:19:20. > :19:23.tomorrow when we begin to get a certain idea. I suppose that means
:19:24. > :19:28.it won't tell us much about the result of the next general election,
:19:28. > :19:33.but it might tell us, the campaign might tell us about how the general
:19:34. > :19:36.election will be fought? Locals rarely tell you very much about a
:19:36. > :19:41.general election in two years time. What I think about the locals is
:19:41. > :19:44.they will set the weather for how that drum beat towards it is fought.
:19:44. > :19:47.You have already seen it with the Prime Minister two days ago saying
:19:47. > :19:51.what he said about possibly bringing forward the EU referendum
:19:51. > :19:54.date. What we will figure out this evening, when we see what happens
:19:54. > :20:01.in South Shields, the by-election also coming in, that looks like
:20:01. > :20:04.UKIP come a very, very good secretary with the Tories and Lib
:20:05. > :20:09.Dems collapsing. If you have UK doing well around the country and
:20:09. > :20:11.in the north they become a National Party, something you can't say of
:20:11. > :20:18.Labour or the Tories at the moment. They scramble both ends in terms it
:20:18. > :20:22.of Labour and the Tories. You begin to get both those leaders starting
:20:22. > :20:25.to tailor their policies to show they are listening. For the reasons
:20:25. > :20:29.that Philip Hammond has said, which is all the mainstream parties have
:20:29. > :20:33.questions to answer about a massive disengagment. We have been out in
:20:33. > :20:36.Harlow and Essex today we have heard that from almost everybody we
:20:36. > :20:41.have spoken to. I don't think you can, as ever, read into the general
:20:41. > :20:48.election, what you do see is policies being tailored to take on
:20:48. > :20:53.the U kill. Trend. One massive health -- UKIP. One massive health
:20:53. > :20:57.warning is yes they may have a trend tomorrow, and a good year
:20:57. > :21:01.next year with the European elections, we still don't know if
:21:01. > :21:05.they have an apparatus for a general election victory, one seat,
:21:05. > :21:09.ten seats. We don't know if that is in their sights, whether they are
:21:09. > :21:15.happy to be scrambling the signal in Westminster, but not really ever
:21:15. > :21:18.going to Westminster. Thank you very much. Imagine, if
:21:18. > :21:23.you can, that some religious leader where you live decides that today
:21:23. > :21:26.is No Women Day on the streets of your home town. Precisely that was
:21:26. > :21:30.happening in parts of Pakistan. A country which is shortly to go to
:21:30. > :21:35.the polls with all the trappings of an election in a vigorous democracy.
:21:35. > :21:39.The shooting of a schoolgirl last year, now worldwide known as Malala,
:21:39. > :21:43.for the supposed crime of daring to want an education, shows that
:21:43. > :21:47.Pakistan remains a country in which some places even the most basic of
:21:47. > :21:52.rights or ambitions can be denied women and girls. The shooting took
:21:52. > :21:55.place as Malala and her school friends sat on a school bus in the
:21:55. > :22:00.Swat Valley, which has seen intense fighting between the army and the
:22:00. > :22:03.Taliban. The BBC's Nel Hedayat, who grew up in Pakistan, has returned
:22:03. > :22:12.to the country to find out what the story of Malala might mean for the
:22:12. > :22:16.way the country is going, whatever the elections decide.
:22:16. > :22:22.I have arrived in Pakistan 18 years since I left the country I grew up
:22:22. > :22:25.in. I was born in Kabul, but crossed the border seeking refuge
:22:25. > :22:30.from the mujahideen and Taliban and spent six years living here. I
:22:30. > :22:34.remember turning on the TV on the 9th October 2012 and seeing images
:22:34. > :22:40.of a small girl on a stretcher, with the news reader saying she was
:22:40. > :22:44.shot by the Taliban for campaigning for girls' education. I remembered
:22:44. > :22:48.Pakistan as somewhere safe for girls like us to grow up in. What
:22:48. > :22:51.happened to Malala in the Swat Valley shocked me. I wanted to find
:22:51. > :22:58.out how something like this could happen and what the girls on whose
:22:58. > :23:02.behalf she was fighting for are going through.
:23:02. > :23:08.I'm on my way to meet Malala's close friends. They are not as well
:23:08. > :23:16.known as Malala, but they were also shot when the Taliban opened fire
:23:16. > :23:21.inside their school bus. The girls have lived all their lives in Swat,
:23:21. > :23:26.and tell me what it was like when the Taliban came in. TRANSLATION:
:23:26. > :23:30.We still remember the days when our school would open for one day and
:23:30. > :23:34.close for ten. Nobody could concentrate on their education.
:23:34. > :23:42.When we went outside the market was shut, there was nothing to eat, and
:23:42. > :23:47.they tell us to wear a burka. girls tell me they would often tune
:23:47. > :23:51.into Taliban FM to find out if the Mullah had declared a No Women Day
:23:51. > :23:56.on the streets of Swat. TRANSLATION: They didn't want girls
:23:56. > :23:59.to get an education, they made it impossible for us to go to school.
:23:59. > :24:03.We couldn't even wear our school uniforms because that would
:24:03. > :24:08.identify us as students and put our lives in danger. We were scared.
:24:08. > :24:13.But Malala is the kind of girl that even in those circumstances she
:24:13. > :24:17.chose to write her diary. She didn't write it against them, she
:24:17. > :24:24.wrote it about herself, about what was happening every day and that it
:24:24. > :24:28.shouldn't be happening and why was it happening? The Taliban wanted to
:24:28. > :24:38.control every aspect of life in Swat, and they did it by using
:24:38. > :24:39.
:24:39. > :24:43.terror. Bombings, executions and flogs in the market became a part
:24:43. > :24:47.of life. At its worst the Taliban blew up over 400 schools in Swat
:24:48. > :24:51.alone. The situation got so bad that the girls had to abandon their
:24:51. > :25:01.homes. The Pakistani army moved in to fight the Taliban and the second
:25:01. > :25:02.
:25:02. > :25:09.battle of Swat began. TRANSLATION: When we finally went whack to Swat,
:25:09. > :25:17.we saw so much blood. What did you see? TRANSLATION: I saw a man lying
:25:17. > :25:21.dead near our home. TRANSLATION: Everything was destroyed, but we
:25:21. > :25:30.were happy to be home. Although it was rubble it was still our home
:25:30. > :25:34.town. Despite the offence ive by the Pakistani army -- offensive by
:25:34. > :25:37.the Pakistan army that left the girls' home town like this, then
:25:37. > :25:43.came the attack on the school bus that nearly killed their friend
:25:43. > :25:49.Malala and injured them. This man came and shot young girls, why? Did
:25:49. > :25:52.you know why? TRANSLATION: Why did he shoot us? Because they don't
:25:52. > :25:57.believe girls should go to school. But that is what Malala questioned
:25:57. > :26:01.and what she campaigned for, it is probably why she got attacked. But
:26:01. > :26:11.how could we know what they were thinking, what went through their
:26:11. > :26:15.minds to shoot small, young girls. I don't know. Malala is now living
:26:15. > :26:20.with her father in Birmingham, where she goes to school and
:26:20. > :26:23.receives treatment. But the girls still live in Swat, they go to
:26:23. > :26:27.school, but have armed guards, always fearing that the peace
:26:27. > :26:32.offered by the army's presence there may not stop an attack by the
:26:32. > :26:37.Taliban. A few months ago there was an explosion behind one of the
:26:37. > :26:40.girl's houses, it scared her and her family. TRANSLATION:
:26:40. > :26:46.neighbours said I was the target, but that they missed and hit our
:26:46. > :26:49.neighbour's house. What's happened that day in October has changed
:26:49. > :26:53.their lives completely. Spending a day with the girls I can see that
:26:53. > :26:56.they still live in fear of the Taliban. But this hasn't deterred
:26:56. > :27:02.them. They believe in Malala's message and will make sure it lives
:27:02. > :27:07.on in Swat. TRANSLATION: Our fight is for education, they say that
:27:07. > :27:12.girls shouldn't get an education, we say girls will get an education.
:27:12. > :27:14.Because it is our right. If it had said in Islam that we shouldn't be
:27:14. > :27:18.educated then our parents would have stopped us. But our parents
:27:18. > :27:23.support us and tell us that whatever our ambition is we should
:27:23. > :27:26.try to achieve it. So this is the thing that everybody, everybody
:27:27. > :27:35.should fight for. Because it is through education that man walked
:27:35. > :27:40.on the moon. The fight goes on, although it is the constitutional
:27:40. > :27:44.right of all children to go to school here, Pakistan has the
:27:44. > :27:50.second highest rate of children not in education in the world, reaching
:27:50. > :27:55.5.1 million, three million of which are girls. And it has got worse as
:27:55. > :27:59.the Government has continuously cut funding. In fact Pakistan spends
:27:59. > :28:03.seven-times more on its military than primary education. But there
:28:03. > :28:10.are certain types of schools that are thriving. Mainly because they
:28:10. > :28:16.are free for the poor. I'm at the one of the branches of the Red
:28:16. > :28:22.Mosque, the famous mosque in Pakistan. I'm going to meet the man
:28:22. > :28:27.who runs the women's Madras sa, the Islamic school for -- Madrassah,
:28:27. > :28:35.the Islamic school for girls. And I can meet his wife as well and learn
:28:35. > :28:40.what do girls learn there and what is the point of this school? The
:28:40. > :28:46.Red Mosque became the battleground between the hardline followers of
:28:46. > :28:50.the Madrassah leader and the Pakistani army in 2007. The
:28:50. > :28:54.Government launched its offensive in response to vigilante action
:28:54. > :28:59.carried out by the female students. During the clashes both men and
:28:59. > :29:03.women were armed and fought hard against the Government forces.
:29:03. > :29:10.After nine days of intense violence from both sides, the Mullah had
:29:10. > :29:14.lost and dozens of students were killed. I'm about to meet the
:29:14. > :29:18.Mullah himself, a powerful man with thousands of devoted followers, man
:29:18. > :29:28.who has been linked to the Taliban. For me to be here is a really big
:29:28. > :29:40.
:29:40. > :29:44.deal. For them to even speak to me is a big deal. I spent over two
:29:44. > :29:51.hours with the Mullah and he was meticulous in his efforts to never
:29:51. > :29:57.look directly at me, as this would be unIslamic in his view. One of
:29:57. > :30:04.his disciples did make the mistake and he was quickly reprimanded. He
:30:04. > :30:08.told hem h him to look down and not to look at me. For the Mullah, what
:30:08. > :30:11.Islam says about your place in society is what matters most and
:30:12. > :30:17.that's what the thousands of female students that come through the
:30:17. > :30:22.Madrassah learn. TRANSLATION: woman has boundaries she has to
:30:22. > :30:26.live within in, and men have boundaries too, without these
:30:26. > :30:30.boundaries society would disintegrate, as it has in the west.
:30:30. > :30:33.Unfortunately there, women have become play things. I'm an educated
:30:33. > :30:38.girl, I'm a journalist, I travel the world. In your opinion I
:30:38. > :30:42.probably may be step outside of that Islamic boundaries. Is what
:30:43. > :30:46.I'm doing wrong? TRANSLATION: Muslim first of all you should be
:30:46. > :30:50.wearing a burka, according to Sharia Law. Secondly, you shouldn't
:30:50. > :30:53.be travelling around without a male chaperone, it is not right for you
:30:53. > :30:56.to travel abroad without a male chaperone.
:30:56. > :31:01.It becomes clear that the Mullah is not against the education of women,
:31:01. > :31:06.so long as it is the right type. So what did he think about Malala and
:31:06. > :31:10.her campaign for girls' education? TRANSLATION: She is a human being
:31:10. > :31:20.and we would never support the terrible thing that happened to her.
:31:20. > :31:23.
:31:23. > :31:27.It grieved us. What was she saying that was different? Whoever she is?
:31:27. > :31:31.TRANSLATION: There was a reason, she talked about being open-minded
:31:31. > :31:40.and liberal on the Internet. She said there is no need for the veil,
:31:40. > :31:43.and she always spoke against Islam, that is why the west like her. She
:31:44. > :31:48.crossed Islamic boundaries and that is wrong. Islam doesn't allow you
:31:48. > :31:58.to cross those boundaries, we don't like her crossing them, we
:31:58. > :31:58.
:31:58. > :32:04.appreciate her educational endeavours. The temporary building
:32:04. > :32:09.that houses Madrassah, is packed full of students devoted to the
:32:09. > :32:14.learning of Islam. So much so that on an average day up to 80% of the
:32:14. > :32:23.students' time is spent learning about it and 20% on "other"
:32:23. > :32:28.subjects. They observe the strictest form of Islam which means
:32:28. > :32:34.male teachers aren't allowed in the room and teaching is done through
:32:34. > :32:38.speakers and microphones. It is like the most unusual lesson in the
:32:38. > :32:42.world, the teacher is not present in the room. That loud tannoy is
:32:42. > :32:48.the teacher, and all these are the students, because it is so
:32:48. > :32:52.important for men and women to be separate it is mandatory this
:32:52. > :32:56.classroom hasn't got a teacher in it. It comes down to the Mullah's
:32:56. > :33:05.wife to take charge of the day-to- day running of the female section
:33:05. > :33:12.of the Madrassah. Umme Hasaan sets an example to her many followers
:33:12. > :33:22.and pupils who reveer her. She was in the Red Mosque in 2007, she
:33:22. > :33:22.
:33:22. > :33:28.fought alongside her husband. TRANSLATION: We asked Mushtaq's
:33:29. > :33:33.Government to implement -- Musharraf's Government to implement
:33:33. > :33:39.Sharia Law and then they attacked the Madrassah and they killed my
:33:39. > :33:43.son, my brother-in-law, my mother and lots of students. This has only
:33:43. > :33:48.made her more fefr vent in her beliefs and more determined to pass
:33:48. > :33:54.on her passion for Islam. Islamic studies is number one, everything
:33:54. > :33:59.else is number two. Everything else? Yes, science, English,
:33:59. > :34:09.mathematics, computers. Basic studies is number two. First in
:34:09. > :34:13.
:34:13. > :34:18.Islam. Look the Taliban have said girls should be educated but no co-
:34:18. > :34:22.education. We met with them before the attack on the Madrassah. The
:34:22. > :34:32.Government asked us to invite them over and talk to them about
:34:32. > :34:33.
:34:33. > :34:39.education. You know their scarves, their His Majesty jab do they match
:34:39. > :34:46.on purpose -- She believes that it is the burka that gives her and
:34:46. > :34:49.other women the power to do what they have to do. TRANSLATION:
:34:49. > :34:53.burka gives me safety, if I have meetings with the Government I wear
:34:53. > :35:00.my burka and I feel very comfortable. I have seen they
:35:00. > :35:08.respect it. When I go there they stand up for me. For women like you
:35:08. > :35:18.they wouldn't stand up. When I sit down then they sit down. This burka
:35:18. > :35:18.
:35:19. > :35:23.compels them to respect me. Me and you are very different. I asked her
:35:23. > :35:28.if she thought of herself as extremist? TRANSLATION: Yes I am,
:35:28. > :35:34.what is wrong with that. If you asked a doctor if he's a doctor why
:35:34. > :35:38.would he be ashamed of that. He has to say, yes I am. You are happy to
:35:38. > :35:43.call yourself extremist? TRANSLATION: Yes, I am and I'm
:35:43. > :35:48.happy about it. Her views may be extreme, but they are not uncommon.
:35:48. > :35:51.A recent survey of 5,000 young Pakistanis suggest over half
:35:51. > :35:58.believe the current democratic system has not been good for the
:35:58. > :36:01.people. What's more they prefer a Sharia system over democracy.
:36:01. > :36:04.Malala and the girls have taken on the fight for better education for
:36:05. > :36:13.millions of girls here, but whatever form it comes in getting
:36:13. > :36:18.it is still a long way away. If you want to find out more about
:36:18. > :36:23.Malala's story and girls' education in Pakistan look out for Nel's
:36:23. > :36:27.documentary on BBC Three next month. A cultural milestone, it has been
:36:27. > :36:33.loved, it has been admired, copied and a true sign of worldwide
:36:33. > :36:43.significance, it has been parodyed. Now Indian cinema celebrates its
:36:43. > :36:44.
:36:44. > :36:49.100th birthday. We have been looking at how it looks aged 100.
:36:49. > :36:54.Hurray for bowl wood. This is a new release hitting the Indian
:36:54. > :37:00.multiplexes in a few weeks time. Singing, dancing, young love. It is
:37:00. > :37:04.not everyone's cup of tea. But a billion people can't be wrong.
:37:04. > :37:09.love going to the cinema, it is part of the culture, cinema,
:37:09. > :37:14.cricket, it is kind of a celebration to go to their
:37:14. > :37:24.favourite actors' movies. They taken a entire family. It is an
:37:24. > :37:24.
:37:24. > :37:28.expensive date. This was the first- ever Indian film. A black and white
:37:28. > :37:37.silent movie, released 100 years ago tomorrow. We found out some
:37:37. > :37:41.interesting detail about how long it was. 3,700 feet. Over the years
:37:41. > :37:51.a recoginsable bowl wood style and sensibility evolved. The producers
:37:51. > :37:54.
:37:54. > :38:00.put all the money up on the screen. Or else they gave an Indian flavour
:38:01. > :38:05.to familiar genres, like the cowboy film. This was a kind of tanned
:38:05. > :38:07.doory western. Not everything -- tandoori western, not everything
:38:07. > :38:13.crosses over says our man in the stalls. It is all about
:38:13. > :38:18.relationships and emotions. Something like Bond will probably
:38:18. > :38:25.not work in India. Audiences in India would say "is he married",
:38:25. > :38:29."where does he live", "who is his mum"? With the Bollywood film we
:38:29. > :38:33.have the traditional masala formula which is every single different
:38:33. > :38:42.blend, we have songs, comedy, dances, action. It all ends happily
:38:42. > :38:46.ever after. 15 million people watch films in India every day. And while
:38:46. > :38:52.Hollywood produces a buttock- stiffening 500 films every year,
:38:52. > :38:57.twice as many are made on the sub- continent. They took almost �2
:38:57. > :39:05.billion at the box-office in 2011. That's expected to be more like �3
:39:05. > :39:10.billion within three years. One veteran of almost 5000 movies, that
:39:10. > :39:18.is six month's worth says cinema is one of India's great communal
:39:18. > :39:22.experiences. What expects India sometimes is cinema. When you are
:39:22. > :39:25.sitting in a cinema hall you are not rich, you are not poor, you are
:39:25. > :39:33.not north Indian or south Indian, you are not a Muslim or a Hindu,
:39:33. > :39:40.you are just part of an audience. That is why I always say the
:39:40. > :39:45.hierarchy in India is good, doctors and actors! Some of those watching
:39:45. > :39:51.in the dark find big bold Bollywood movies speak to them when the
:39:51. > :39:58.culture outside is less friendly. Bollywood is probably the gayest
:39:58. > :40:03.place I know, but no-one talks about it. It is very much still in
:40:03. > :40:11.the Bolly-closet. The audiences may be secretly gay, but as the society
:40:11. > :40:17.demands within India they must be married. Is this Bollywood? Well it
:40:17. > :40:25.is Indian, but it is gritty, contemporary. Some say the industry
:40:25. > :40:28.has a crisis of identity. I think Bollywood is confused in 2013. It
:40:28. > :40:32.is aimless and does not really know where it is going. The traditional
:40:33. > :40:37.formula has been redefined, but redefined into what? We have
:40:37. > :40:40.shorter films, last week I saw a Bollywood horror film. But guess
:40:40. > :40:49.what? They still insisted on including two unnecessary songs. I
:40:49. > :40:53.love my song and dance, but not in a Bollywood horror film, rated 18.
:40:53. > :41:01.The future could be fusion, a British-Asian director was
:41:01. > :41:06.responsible for this reworking of Jane Austen. He is about to
:41:06. > :41:11.transform into the Indian MC Hammer! With me now is the director
:41:11. > :41:15.of that film, and the actress who starred in a number of British and
:41:15. > :41:20.Indian films. I wondered if over the years, say since the 50s and
:41:20. > :41:25.60s, the kinds of movies had changed or whether they remained
:41:25. > :41:30.constant? Tremenduously. All movies I remember when I was in India as a
:41:30. > :41:35.young girl, they always had a moral message for the society. They were
:41:35. > :41:44.not just to entertain you. They were either telling you historical
:41:44. > :41:49.fact or social reforms that should be brought in. And also we used to
:41:49. > :41:54.have a lot of agriculture and landowners, so the biggest dispute
:41:54. > :42:00.in those days after the independence wars was that the
:42:00. > :42:04.landowners were treating their subjects very badly. We had films
:42:04. > :42:10.on that and the message was that you should fight against them, form
:42:10. > :42:16.a union. So we had films like Kuli, in which unions were formed to
:42:16. > :42:20.fight against the magnet. Who are the bad guys now, what's changed in
:42:20. > :42:24.that, are they less socially engaged is the way to put it?
:42:24. > :42:32.guys are now smugglers, international smugglers. They are
:42:32. > :42:37.bad guys here too? Traffickers, you know they abduct young girls and
:42:37. > :42:42.sell them. We have lots of films like Bazaar. The reforms that have
:42:42. > :42:46.come into the Indian society since independence, thanks to the
:42:46. > :42:56.screening of films and documentaries and things like that.
:42:56. > :42:59.They are also tackling child marriage, taking revenge so we have
:42:59. > :43:03.famous stories. Did you here grow up on them, if so what did you
:43:03. > :43:07.think of Bollywood then when you were a girl? I grew up in west
:43:07. > :43:11.London in Southall, when I was growing up there were three cinemas
:43:11. > :43:15.that showed Bollywood or Hindi movies, it was very much part of my
:43:15. > :43:22.childhood and growing up. My father was very fond of Indian films, so
:43:22. > :43:27.there were two classic films that he raved about, Mother India and
:43:27. > :43:32.Beji Barbara. We grew up with those films. They are very much part of
:43:32. > :43:36.my childhood. What is important, really important about Hindi cinema
:43:36. > :43:39.in this country today, there are many British cinemas up and down
:43:39. > :43:44.the country that are being kept alive because of Indian cinema. If
:43:44. > :43:50.you go to a cinema like the Cineplex in Feltham, that is
:43:50. > :43:52.working because of all the Indians going there. Bollywood films or
:43:52. > :43:56.Hindi cinema today is very important to the community, because
:43:56. > :44:00.it is a way of reaffirming your idea and connecting with who you
:44:00. > :44:04.are, it is pleasurable. Does it cross over? Do you think it crosses
:44:04. > :44:07.over to a British audience? I don't think it does and I don't think it
:44:07. > :44:11.is intending to cross over. doesn't need to, it can do quite
:44:11. > :44:15.well, thank you very much? I think the important thing is it is a way,
:44:15. > :44:25.as it was said, it holds India together within India. But it is
:44:25. > :44:26.
:44:26. > :44:30.also very important for the Indian disas pra, so people diaspora, so
:44:30. > :44:36.people sitting in India will be the same as someone in Australia. The
:44:36. > :44:40.whole system is very global. Does it cross over to directors, Bride
:44:40. > :44:47.and Prejudice was a crossover film, that is tricky I suppose? It is
:44:47. > :44:55.tricky. There are very few of us, but some people do venture into
:44:55. > :44:59.that territory. My very first film that you were in, Baji on the Beach,
:44:59. > :45:03.hi snippets of Bollywood films I was Reverends, at the time nobody
:45:03. > :45:07.knew what I was -- referencing, nobody knew what I was doing, they
:45:07. > :45:12.were film that is influenced me growing up. Those references were
:45:12. > :45:15.there, that was because at the time I started making films it was very
:45:15. > :45:18.much about exploring who you were as a British and Indian person and
:45:18. > :45:23.exploring identity. Within I got the opportunity to make my first
:45:23. > :45:26.feature film I wanted to explore my identity through being a British
:45:26. > :45:32.film maker as well as having a legacy of Indian films. I think
:45:32. > :45:37.there is interesting ways to use cinema. But I think the person in
:45:37. > :45:40.your report there was wrong. I don't think Hindi cinema is
:45:40. > :45:44.confused. In terms of bringing India together and how it impacts
:45:44. > :45:49.on the wider culture, does it change street fashions, does it
:45:49. > :45:55.change the way people talk and think? In India it has a great
:45:55. > :46:00.influence. The girls are dressing like film stars and of course some
:46:00. > :46:03.of the films are now copying the western culture and the western
:46:03. > :46:08.themes. The miniskirt is there now, very short hair which we could
:46:08. > :46:12.never dream of. That has come through Bollywood, but having been
:46:12. > :46:18.taken from there? Visa versa, Bollywood has travelled here, they
:46:18. > :46:28.have made a couple of film over here like Bollywood Queen with
:46:28. > :46:29.
:46:29. > :46:34.James McAvoid, he was the hero in it. -- James McAvoy, he was the
:46:34. > :46:36.hero in it. I'm sure he wants to forget that. We will see happy
:46:36. > :46:46.birthday, tomorrow we have the reaction to the local election
:46:46. > :46:51.
:46:51. > :46:55.Just like the last few days decent sunshine across central and eastern
:46:55. > :46:58.England to start with today. Not as cold a start as mornings past, a
:46:58. > :47:01.little more cloud further west and thicker cloud, rain and strong
:47:01. > :47:05.winds to the north. Certainly by the middle of the afternoon that
:47:05. > :47:08.rain will still be sitting across much of Northern Ireland, a
:47:08. > :47:13.disappointing ten degrees into Belfast. There will be snow above
:47:13. > :47:17.300ms to the higher ground to the tops of the mountains in Scotland.
:47:17. > :47:20.It will be wet and windy as well. That rain slowly sinking south
:47:20. > :47:25.across the borders by the middle of the afternoon. Cloud into northern
:47:25. > :47:29.England and down into the Midland. We cling on to the sunshine through
:47:29. > :47:33.the Midland East Anglia and the south-east corner. Highs of 17,
:47:33. > :47:38.maybe a 19, 20 somewhere with the warmth. A little more cloud across
:47:38. > :47:48.the south west, the cloud thickenens for a few showers,
:47:48. > :47:53.
:47:54. > :47:57.coming inland hopeful low you will We keep the sunshine and warmth, a
:47:57. > :48:00.little more cloud into the south- east for Saturday. Cloudy skies