:00:17. > :00:21.it the Holy Grail of British politics. What to do about
:00:21. > :00:24.childcare? But it is in confusion tonight. As Nick Clegg appears to
:00:25. > :00:27.veto coalition policy. Would it really lower childcare costs and
:00:27. > :00:31.increase pay to child minders as the Government says, or would
:00:31. > :00:34.increasing the number of children who can be supervised by child
:00:34. > :00:38.minders make things worse for everyone, especially the children?
:00:38. > :00:44.We will debate what works and whether the coalition itself needs
:00:44. > :00:47.some adult supervision. Also tonight, 26 years after a private
:00:47. > :00:50.detective called Daniel Morgan was murdered, five police
:00:51. > :00:54.investigations and a collapsed trial later tomorrow the Home
:00:54. > :00:59.Secretary will announce an inquiry, Daniel's brother wants justice.
:00:59. > :01:06.made a promise to my brother, I said I'm not going to stop until I
:01:06. > :01:09.see this exposed. The outspoken US writer and academic, Dr Cornel West
:01:10. > :01:18.joins us, to discuss race in America, and why he's disappointed
:01:18. > :01:27.with Barack Obama. And some thought in the best rock
:01:27. > :01:33.drummer in the world, in one of the world's first super groups, Ginger.
:01:33. > :01:42.I have never thrown a TV out of a hotel window in my life. I walked
:01:42. > :01:46.through a hotel glass doors once, but not intentionally.
:01:46. > :01:51.Good evening, one of the marks of civilisation, you might think, is
:01:51. > :01:55.how parents, families and ultimately a nation,s after its
:01:55. > :01:58.children. Childcare in this country is some of the most expensive in
:01:59. > :02:03.Europe, a worry for millions of parents, it is also the most
:02:03. > :02:07.tightly regulate. The Government plans to relax the rules by
:02:07. > :02:10.allowing child minders to take extra children into their groups,
:02:10. > :02:14.has been blown apart by this programme's revelation that the
:02:14. > :02:18.Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, is opposing what is thought to be
:02:18. > :02:28.settled policy. What better way to spend a Thursday afternoon than
:02:28. > :02:28.
:02:28. > :02:34.gently painting a paving stone. The Busy Bees Nursery in Colchester in
:02:34. > :02:37.Essex certainly feels busy, 86 little ones spend time here every
:02:37. > :02:42.week. It is one of the biggest chains in the country, and at the
:02:42. > :02:47.heart of a coalition spat. Last night on Newsnight we revealed that
:02:47. > :02:50.Nick Clegg was uncomfortable with the idea of watering down the rules
:02:50. > :02:53.on adult-to-children ratios in childcare. This morning a
:02:53. > :02:59.Conservative minister was hauled before the Commons to explain what
:02:59. > :03:08.on earth was going on. The real cost of childcare, which every
:03:08. > :03:14.family in this country faces has risen by 77% in real terms since
:03:14. > :03:19.2003. Childcare inflation is going up by 6% every year. If we don't do
:03:19. > :03:25.something about this, if we don't reform the supply of childcare we
:03:25. > :03:30.are going to find that it becomes prohibitive. The scale of public
:03:30. > :03:38.opposition to her plans has been overwhelming. The Government's own
:03:38. > :03:43.adviser on childcare Professor Katy Brown has said the ratio plans and
:03:43. > :03:47.I quote, "make no sense at all". The minister was piling them so
:03:47. > :03:55.high and wanting to teach them so cheap it was bound to come crashing
:03:55. > :04:00.down at some point. Back at nursery in Colchester there was an extra
:04:00. > :04:06.grown-up keeping an eye on the kids this afternoon. And keeping an eye
:04:06. > :04:09.too on what Conservative ministers were saying. When we consulted on
:04:09. > :04:12.this idea, the response from experts from nurseries and
:04:12. > :04:15.crucially from parents was overwhelmingly negative, in other
:04:15. > :04:19.words they raised a lot of serious concerns. That is why I want to
:04:19. > :04:23.make sure that we have a careful look at these proposals, don't take
:04:23. > :04:29.a leap in the dark, if you like, in a way that won't necessarily reduce
:04:29. > :04:32.costs or raise the quality of childcare. Margaret Randall set up
:04:32. > :04:39.this chain of nurseries 30 years ago, happily for Nick Clegg she
:04:39. > :04:43.shares his view. This nursery here is an outstanding nursery. We
:04:43. > :04:48.wouldn't change ratios just to save costs and I don't think our parents
:04:48. > :04:51.would be happy if we did either. are going in for a bit of
:04:51. > :04:56.multicoloured tower building here. You only have to spend half an hour
:04:56. > :05:00.in a nursery like this to realise how hard it is to keep track of how
:05:00. > :05:04.many children you have around you, there is four here building their
:05:04. > :05:08.towers. For the coalition wrestling with the cost of living, being seen
:05:08. > :05:12.to do something about it, is absolutely crucial. The cost of
:05:12. > :05:17.living for many young families is ramped up by the cost of childcare.
:05:17. > :05:19.But what about ratios of staff-to- children, can tinkering with them
:05:19. > :05:23.make a difference in terms of the care the children are offered, and
:05:23. > :05:30.can it make a difference in terms of the bills that parents receive
:05:30. > :05:35.every month? Conservative ministers proudly trumpet how good the staff-
:05:35. > :05:40.to-children ratios are in England, one adult to look after every four
:05:40. > :05:48.kids. The proposed shake-up would change it to one to six, the same
:05:48. > :05:52.as in the netherlands and Ireland. The ratio in France is 1-8.
:05:52. > :05:55.International comparisons ram home how expensive childcare is. It is
:05:55. > :06:00.costs on average 27% of family income in the UK. It is a similar
:06:00. > :06:06.figure in Ireland, but it is just 10% in both the Netherlands and
:06:06. > :06:10.France. Both sides of the coalition emphasise the idea to change the
:06:10. > :06:13.staffing ratios is one they have been taking soundings on rather
:06:13. > :06:17.than firm policy. Conservatives stress no nursery or childminder
:06:18. > :06:24.would be forced to look after more children, staff would be better
:06:24. > :06:26.trained. But would changing the rules save parents money? We did
:06:26. > :06:31.some very quick calculation and we couldn't see where a saving was
:06:31. > :06:37.going to come from. There would be nothing material to give back to
:06:37. > :06:41.the parents. Coalition spats can seem arcane outside Westminster,
:06:41. > :06:46.but not this one for Anita here to collect her son, Barnaby. It is
:06:46. > :06:50.something we have concerns about, the ratios lower down definitely
:06:50. > :06:54.should not be increased. I cannot imagine how you could look after
:06:54. > :06:57.more than two or three two-year- olds, it would be really difficult.
:06:57. > :07:02.I don't know, I don't work in childcare. But I cannot imagine how
:07:02. > :07:09.they would cope. For nurseries, child minders and politicians too,
:07:09. > :07:12.the Holy Grail is convincing parents like Anita that they can
:07:12. > :07:17.provide top-notch affordable child cautious getting there is proving
:07:17. > :07:20.rather tricky. We have been trying all day to find
:07:20. > :07:24.people who work in childcare in this country in favour of the
:07:24. > :07:28.changes of the ratios from children-to-child minders, while we
:07:29. > :07:32.did identify one or two, none were able to talk to us tonight. We have
:07:32. > :07:36.our guest from the early years foundation. Is there any hard
:07:36. > :07:40.evidence that changing the ratios makes any difference at all?
:07:40. > :07:43.evidence is that you have to have the right ratios, and you have to
:07:43. > :07:46.have the right set of qualifications and you have to have
:07:46. > :07:50.the right environment. It is the combination that actually is about
:07:50. > :07:59.high quality. That's what's important. So when people say, yes,
:07:59. > :08:03.but if you can just, ratios don't matter to quality, it is assuming
:08:03. > :08:08.that ratios are part of a much more complex combination. That is very
:08:08. > :08:11.dangerous. You accept affordability is a problem for a huge number of
:08:11. > :08:15.people. Entirely.If you had the choice with not being able to
:08:15. > :08:18.afford it at all, and therefore being excluded, or going to a
:08:18. > :08:21.nursery where there is five when you would rather have four children
:08:21. > :08:25.in a little group, you might settle for something that is not as great
:08:25. > :08:30.as you think? I think we have to look at it in a much broader way.
:08:30. > :08:33.First of all Mr Clegg has been brave enough to stand up and listen
:08:33. > :08:36.to the sector, nobody else has been listening to it. They are
:08:36. > :08:41.completely coherent on it, there is no real agreement that changing
:08:41. > :08:45.ratios is a good idea. He has a huge policy driver for social
:08:45. > :08:52.mobility and the two-year-olds in to nurseries from the 40% poorest
:08:52. > :08:55.parts of this country is one of the big moves to er they call early
:08:55. > :08:59.intervention. You capture the very young children very early and help
:08:59. > :09:03.them to ensure that they succeed in school. Isn't there common ground
:09:03. > :09:07.on that? Well, because two-year- olds have the biggest variation in
:09:07. > :09:11.child development. To narrow the gap in two-year-olds you have to
:09:11. > :09:16.have really good language acquisition. A child from a poorer
:09:16. > :09:21.family will hear 600 words an hour, a child from a professional family
:09:21. > :09:25.will hear 2,100. By the time they are three the difference is 30
:09:25. > :09:30.million words they have heard. If you reduce the ratios you limited
:09:30. > :09:36.the interaction, you limited chances for one-to-one and strong
:09:36. > :09:41.empathetic connections. Children under three are developing their
:09:41. > :09:45.synatic connections at a rate per second. Wouldn't it allow those who
:09:45. > :09:50.can't afford to go to a group to go to a group? We can. This thing with
:09:50. > :09:54.France, I paid for myself to go to France and have a good look, France
:09:54. > :09:58.contributes very significantly to its service. The Government is
:09:58. > :10:02.trying to do something on the cheap. It is not paying the fair rate. If
:10:02. > :10:05.you talk about early years as part of education, nobody says how much
:10:05. > :10:08.an hour in a school costs, there is no issue about it. It is the same
:10:08. > :10:13.in childcare. If you know what the hourly rate is for childcare, then
:10:13. > :10:18.pay it. Of course the Government don't, they want to get it in cheap.
:10:18. > :10:22.That's why parents have to pick up the bigger gap. Do you have a clue
:10:22. > :10:25.where this policy is tonight? Not at all. But I was very
:10:25. > :10:30.interested you observed that you couldn't get anyone to speak out
:10:30. > :10:34.against it. The thing is that really depresses the sector is
:10:34. > :10:39.there are some very interesting things to. Do the ratio thing has
:10:39. > :10:46.hijacked a much bigger agenda, the big huge agenda is the social
:10:46. > :10:51.mobility agenda that would make a significance to -- significant
:10:51. > :10:57.difference to a huge number of little two-year-olds. Where is the
:10:57. > :11:02.policy tonight? My sense is that ratios die, it is not official yet.
:11:02. > :11:05.Because both Liberal Democrats and Conservativess I have spoken to
:11:05. > :11:09.have said the strength of Nick Clegg's feel something so strong.
:11:09. > :11:12.thought it was all agreed? They did think that. There has been a lot of
:11:12. > :11:16.heated exchanges across Westminster and the lobby today about whether
:11:16. > :11:19.it was in the nature, I do think it is a bit weird that you have a
:11:19. > :11:22.consultation and you have agreed it before your consultation, none the
:11:22. > :11:26.less that is Government policy and has been forever, that you agree
:11:26. > :11:30.your policy and then you consult. That is what they did. Earlier
:11:30. > :11:33.today my colleague got hold of the letters between Elizabeth Truss and
:11:33. > :11:39.Nick Clegg, where she says to Nick Clegg and other cabinet ministers,
:11:39. > :11:43.I need you to sign this off, speak now or forever hold your peace. The
:11:43. > :11:48.highest profile bit of her reforms are the ratios, this will be the
:11:48. > :11:52.biggest thing about it and they sign it off. This is last December.
:11:52. > :11:55.Added to which, before Elizabeth Truss entered politics this is what
:11:55. > :12:00.she wrote and talked about. When she was promoted to the cabinet
:12:00. > :12:03.almost a year ago this was clearly what she was going to do. I think
:12:03. > :12:08.Conservatives feel that this was a long time coming. I think right at
:12:08. > :12:13.the top of the Government the Prime Minister is very irritated about
:12:13. > :12:18.this. Irritated, where does that leave the coalition? I think as I
:12:18. > :12:22.said last night this is setting a precedent. Last night was supposed
:12:22. > :12:26.to be this good moment for the coalition where you had them
:12:26. > :12:29.showing, look, we maybe two years away from a general election but we
:12:29. > :12:32.can still agree enough policy to have a Queen's Speech. We slightly
:12:32. > :12:38.ruined the show. Because we showed that actually even on things that
:12:38. > :12:41.are supposedly done and dusted they can be unpicked. That precedent is
:12:41. > :12:45.what worries Conservatives, Lib Dems are clearly worried enough
:12:45. > :12:48.about that to be going around and saying hold on a second it wasn't a
:12:48. > :12:53.done deal, really quibbling on that issue. It has then led on to, I
:12:53. > :13:00.don't think it is causal, but I do think at moss officerically there
:13:00. > :13:05.is some thinking, the -- atmosphereically there is some
:13:05. > :13:08.thinking. I think there will be talks about this not mentioned in
:13:08. > :13:13.the Queen's Speech, and the Prime Minister has said go for it. He
:13:13. > :13:17.never says that. There is a new spirit, political journalism we are
:13:17. > :13:20.always breathless about these things, a new era in the coalition.
:13:21. > :13:24.But a lot of people feel two years out from the general election that
:13:24. > :13:28.there is a feeling things won't be so easy to get deals on. What is
:13:28. > :13:34.Government policy tonight, where does all this leave the coalition,
:13:34. > :13:39.and does Labour actually have an alternative? Sharon Hodgson speaks
:13:39. > :13:47.for Labour on children's issues, Clare Perry is an adviser to David
:13:47. > :13:50.Cameron, and the Lib Dem, Duncan Hames is the parliamentary private
:13:50. > :13:54.secretary to Nick Clegg. When did Nick Clegg change his mind on it?
:13:54. > :13:58.He has been in discussions with Government ministers for weeks.
:13:58. > :14:04.Obviously the Government has been consulting. It is very important
:14:04. > :14:07.for something as important as who looks after families and children
:14:07. > :14:11.and how that the Government listens to what carers and families,
:14:12. > :14:15.parents have to say about this. When did he change his mind on it?
:14:15. > :14:20.He has been talking to Government ministers for weeks about this
:14:20. > :14:27.issue. As far as he's concerned this matter hasn't been closed. It
:14:27. > :14:33.is important that we should listen to what people say. Was his mind
:14:33. > :14:37.made up in December, he hadn't made up his mind, he had an open mind
:14:37. > :14:39.and now he has? He thought it was right there was a public
:14:39. > :14:43.consultation. It is important we do everything we can as a Government
:14:43. > :14:47.to get it right, and that involves listening to people. Was it a
:14:47. > :14:51.coincidence he made up his mind on day he was visiting a nursery?
:14:51. > :14:54.think you will find that I saw him on Tuesday, when he met with
:14:54. > :14:58.Elizabeth Truss, he obviously had an important meeting with her about
:14:58. > :15:01.the subject then. So he changed his mind then, I'm trying to find out
:15:01. > :15:06.when he changed his mind and whether today was a stunt. Was it a
:15:06. > :15:10.stunt to go to a child's nursery, have that planned and go ahead and
:15:10. > :15:14.make this splash? This policy matter, this measure has been up
:15:14. > :15:17.for debate within the Government for weeks. The Government has been
:15:17. > :15:20.listening to what the public, parents, carers and what the
:15:20. > :15:25.experts have been saying about it and trying to resolve what is the
:15:25. > :15:28.best way phwoar. It is one of a whole range -- forward. This is one
:15:28. > :15:34.of a whole range of measure that is the Government is trying to make
:15:34. > :15:38.childcare more affordable. This does blow a hole in one of the
:15:38. > :15:45.biggest ones that Elizabeth Truss cares about? This is a slightly
:15:45. > :15:50.depression of politicianing studying their navals. The reality
:15:50. > :15:53.is millions of womens can't go back to work and they want to because it
:15:53. > :15:57.is difficult to find quality childcare. When we talk about the
:15:57. > :16:00.ratios, a tiny part of the proposals. I was involved for a
:16:00. > :16:04.noft for profit nursery on the board for five years, they were
:16:04. > :16:09.stymied by the racial yo. The problem with the ratios is they are
:16:09. > :16:12.so prescriptive, there is no way to say you have highly qualified staff
:16:12. > :16:15.perhaps we could relax the ratios and reinvest in staff. One the
:16:15. > :16:18.things that didn't come across is these changes are entirely
:16:18. > :16:24.voluntary, they are up to nurseries and parents to decide. You will
:16:24. > :16:27.change the ratios? I think changing the ratios is part of a whole range
:16:28. > :16:31.of measures that gives us better- quality and more affordable
:16:31. > :16:33.childcare. I would be disappoint if we dropped that. You might have to?
:16:33. > :16:37.That is coalition politics, unfortunate lo. It is such an
:16:37. > :16:40.important thing, it is too important thing to play petty
:16:40. > :16:44.politics with it. Sharon's Government did a lot in this area.
:16:44. > :16:47.We have struggled for years, we have some of the most expensive and
:16:47. > :16:51.lowest-quality childcare in the western world, we have to fix that
:16:51. > :16:54.for parents. When David Cameron says it is the Holy Grail, and he
:16:54. > :16:58.presumably did think he had a deal on this, and Elizabeth Truss
:16:58. > :17:02.thought she had a deal in December, you must be irritated? I am and
:17:02. > :17:06.disappointed. We talked a lot about ratios, we haven't talked at all
:17:06. > :17:08.about the additional money we are going to give parents about the
:17:08. > :17:12.affordability problem. All the other structural changes that will
:17:12. > :17:15.mean child minders who had exited this industry in droves because
:17:15. > :17:19.they were driven out by red tape will come back and give parents
:17:19. > :17:22.more flexibility that they need. you regret when Labour was in power
:17:22. > :17:26.you didn't do enough on this, this is when the problem really became
:17:26. > :17:31.significant? We inherited such a terrible situation with regard to
:17:31. > :17:36.childcare and the work force, and we did a lot. And the work force,
:17:36. > :17:40.the status, the qualifications was raised a lot. But currently we all
:17:40. > :17:45.recognised we face a childcare crisis. More than a decade to sort
:17:45. > :17:51.it out? We did do a lot. Everybody usually acknowledges it. Childcare
:17:51. > :17:56.since 2003 has risen by 77%, costs. Everyone will say that? Why did the
:17:56. > :18:00.Government one of the first things they did was cut the Childcare Tax
:18:00. > :18:03.Credit from 80% to 70%. That was immediately taking money off people
:18:03. > :18:07.that they were using to pay towards their childcare. The subject to
:18:07. > :18:11.hand is ratios, I think ratios don't have to be discussed in this
:18:11. > :18:18.whole debate. A lot of the things, some of the things that Liz Truss
:18:18. > :18:23.is talking about with regard to the qualifications and Professor Katy
:18:23. > :18:27.Nutbrown we agree with her, but she says the proposals on ratios would
:18:27. > :18:32.be detrimental and damaging to children's safety and quality.
:18:32. > :18:38.Again, forgive me, I have huge amount of respect for you
:18:38. > :18:42.colleagues, there is scaremongering about ratios, we are relaxing them
:18:42. > :18:45.to French models. We hold them up to Scandinavian and French models
:18:45. > :18:49.saying it is a better system. is a great deal more state
:18:49. > :18:55.intervention in the way it is run. You would accept that. They are
:18:55. > :18:58.strongly run by the state. That is where the money comes from.
:18:58. > :19:02.particularly deprived two-year-olds. This isn't a shortage of money we
:19:02. > :19:07.spend twice The OC D average. is not true, that is disputed, it
:19:07. > :19:11.is less it is �4.5 billion at most. Every child gets vouchers worth
:19:11. > :19:15.�2,000 a year, there is a lot of money spent and the system is
:19:15. > :19:18.broken. There has been a dramatic fall in the number of child minders.
:19:18. > :19:25.I don't think it is chieped child minders with time on their hands,
:19:25. > :19:30.we don't have enough of them. I support the other issue of
:19:30. > :19:34.childminder agencies, so people passionate to look after children
:19:35. > :19:39.who don't want to file tax returns and all that, will concentrate on
:19:39. > :19:42.doing what they love best. Are you saying the ratios question is now a
:19:42. > :19:48.dead issue, it is gone and won't go through? We haven't seen the
:19:48. > :19:54.evidence that it would help either on making childcare more affordable.
:19:54. > :19:57.Unless you have the evidence you don't have a firm way forward.
:19:57. > :20:01.have just come out of committee, which is one of the things that
:20:02. > :20:06.Nick Clegg might have looked at. We had a massively fierce debate in
:20:06. > :20:10.committee were this was discussed. The lack of evidence, under
:20:10. > :20:13.scrutiny this policy fell apart. There is no evidence in support.
:20:13. > :20:17.Where is the evidence that reducing the ratios. All the experts, the
:20:17. > :20:19.parents, the voice of parents in this should be listened to, as well
:20:19. > :20:23.as the experts and the professionals, they are all against
:20:23. > :20:28.it T If we have the tight, again I don't want to talk about ratios, if
:20:28. > :20:31.we have the tightest ratios in western Europe and we are not
:20:31. > :20:34.delivering affordable high-quality childcare with those ratios it is
:20:34. > :20:39.right to look at the industry and say we have to be bold and take
:20:39. > :20:44.some really big steps to try to deliver better childcare. The point
:20:44. > :20:48.was raised about the possibility of a vote next week on the European
:20:48. > :20:51.issue, which may be completely different issue, or it may be that
:20:51. > :20:55.the irritation that David Cameron is feeling about one thing means
:20:55. > :20:58.he's saying he's quite relaxed if Conservative members vote against
:20:58. > :21:03.Government policy? I think again, people watching this will be
:21:03. > :21:05.depressed to hear that politicians are engaging in tit for tat votes
:21:05. > :21:10.in the Houses of Parliament. don't think they are. Is that how
:21:10. > :21:15.you see it, as a tit for tat vote? Potentially. Not on this, parents
:21:15. > :21:18.are massively against it. We have a childcare system that is broken, we
:21:18. > :21:22.have very expensive childcare in the country, we have a situation
:21:22. > :21:26.where the costs have gone up and the ratios need to be reduced.
:21:26. > :21:30.is the answer, what would Labour do. We are looking at this, we have a
:21:30. > :21:34.childcare commission. You had 13 years to look at it. We did so much.
:21:34. > :21:38.Drove up the costs 70% that is quite an achievement. It wasn't our
:21:38. > :21:41.policies that drove up the costs, there are all sorts of other issues
:21:41. > :21:45.in play that affect the cost. One of the things was we improved the
:21:45. > :21:49.standard of the work force, we started improving that, we brought
:21:49. > :21:52.in the early years professional status, that was massively welcomed.
:21:52. > :21:55.No disagreement on. That we get back to the point of saying, we
:21:55. > :22:00.never talk about parents and say what do parents want, which is more
:22:00. > :22:03.choice in this, we have to take important decisions and try and
:22:03. > :22:13.educate people, educate everybody as to why this could be the right
:22:13. > :22:14.
:22:14. > :22:16.thing to do. Still to come:
:22:16. > :22:23.Legendary drummer Ginger Baker bashes out an interview with Steve
:22:24. > :22:28.Smith. Tomorrow the Government is expected to announce a public
:22:28. > :22:32.inquiry into one of the most murky unsolved murders of the past 30
:22:32. > :22:37.years. In 1987 Daniel Morgan, a private investigator was killed
:22:37. > :22:40.with an axe, his body found in a south London pub car park. In a
:22:41. > :22:43.moment we will hear from his brother, Alastair, who has
:22:43. > :22:51.campaigned through five police investigations and a collapsed
:22:51. > :22:54.trial for someone to be held accountable. In March 1987 the
:22:54. > :22:59.private detective, Daniel Morgan, was found dead, an axe in his head,
:22:59. > :23:03.in the car park of the Golden Lion Pub in south London. His family
:23:03. > :23:07.believe he was on the verge of exposing police corruption. Ever
:23:07. > :23:11.since they have campaigned for his killers to be brought to justice.
:23:11. > :23:15.Five separate police inquiries have failed to do that. Now we
:23:15. > :23:20.understand the Home Secretary will announce an independent judge-led
:23:20. > :23:25.inquiry into the case. It was the Leveson Inquiry which brought
:23:25. > :23:30.Daniel Morgan back into the public sigh. At the inquiry the former
:23:30. > :23:34.Crimewatch presenter, Jackie Hames alleged collusion between those
:23:34. > :23:39.suspected of Morgan's murder and the News of the World. In 2002 her
:23:39. > :23:43.husband had been leading a new inquiry into the Morgan murder and
:23:43. > :23:47.the couple had been put under surveillance bit paper. There was
:23:47. > :23:50.various things that happened and you can't, I think any reasonable
:23:50. > :23:55.person would find it very difficult not to put them together and feel
:23:55. > :23:59.that there was in some way, there was some collusion between people
:23:59. > :24:05.at the News of the World and people who were suspected of committing
:24:05. > :24:08.the murder of Daniel Morgan. I can't put it any clearer than that.
:24:08. > :24:12.Jonathan Rhys, Daniel Morgan's business partner has been suspected
:24:12. > :24:20.of the murder, he has always denied it. According to the Morgan family
:24:20. > :24:23.the two men had fallen out, partly because Rhys had been employing
:24:23. > :24:27.offduty police officers at their firm. The Metropolitan Police have
:24:27. > :24:35.since admitted, at the highest ranks, commissioner and Deputy
:24:35. > :24:40.Assistant Commissioner level that initial inquiry was crippled as a
:24:40. > :24:45.result of corruption, corruption amongst those investigating and
:24:45. > :24:49.corruption amongst those who protected the guilty parties.
:24:49. > :24:53.16 years there were four separate investigations, none came to trial.
:24:53. > :24:59.The family kept campaigning and then the Metropolitan Police
:24:59. > :25:03.authority supported them. Finally the police apologised. The case,
:25:03. > :25:13.particularly in the early stages suffered from the taint of
:25:13. > :25:13.
:25:14. > :25:17.corruption. That was written by the deputy commissioner in 1986.
:25:18. > :25:23.Another inquiry began and in 2008 four people were charged over
:25:23. > :25:27.Daniel Morgan's murder. But the trial collapsed over the use of
:25:27. > :25:31.Supergrass evidence. Now the family's lawyer hopes the new
:25:31. > :25:36.inquiry, looking at old police files will show exactly who knew
:25:36. > :25:41.what and when over more than two decades. The information that is of
:25:41. > :25:47.interest to this family and the public will lie in those shelves in
:25:47. > :25:51.those filing cabinets. The exchanges between the senior
:25:51. > :25:54.management of the Metropolitan Police. The exchanges between the
:25:54. > :26:00.Metropolitan Police and the Home Office. As the authority governing
:26:00. > :26:06.the police. The exchanges between the Metropolitan Police and the
:26:06. > :26:10.Crown Prosecution Service which allowed this matter to remain
:26:10. > :26:14.unaddressed. Daniel Morgan's family hope that the inquiry can do the
:26:14. > :26:19.work quickly. Though any report might have to wait until possible
:26:19. > :26:24.criminal trials, hacking and corruption, are over.
:26:24. > :26:30.A little earlier I spoke to Daniel Morgan's brother, Alastair.
:26:30. > :26:36.What do you hope will come from this new inquiry? Well I suppose
:26:36. > :26:42.more than anything else a recognition of the extent of the
:26:42. > :26:45.corruption that has gone on in this case. You have had 26 years, five
:26:45. > :26:48.police inquiries, you have had one court case, which then collapsed.
:26:48. > :26:52.There must be somewhere in the back of your mind you think this could
:26:52. > :26:58.be another deadend? My experience of dealing with this case. The more
:26:58. > :27:01.I find out about it, the worse it gets. If we are going to deal with
:27:02. > :27:07.corruption in the police force, we have to look at it straight in the
:27:07. > :27:11.eye. We have to see how it works, the nuts and bolts of it, where it
:27:11. > :27:18.started what decisions were made et cetera, et cetera. What I want from
:27:18. > :27:28.this inquiry is to look at this corruption straight in the eye, if
:27:28. > :27:30.
:27:30. > :27:34.we want do that we can never begin to deal with it. Why do you think
:27:34. > :27:38.five police inquiries have gotten nowhere? Because of corruption.
:27:38. > :27:42.Corruption in the beginning, corruption which basically
:27:42. > :27:50.sabotaged the first inquiry. A refusal to recognise that
:27:50. > :27:55.corruption, repeatedly, over many, many years. Coming to a point where
:27:55. > :28:00.evidential opportunities are lost and where the case has been, and is
:28:00. > :28:10.so weighted down with the failings of previous investigations that it
:28:10. > :28:10.
:28:10. > :28:14.becomes a legal nightmare to deal W -- With. Would you accept the
:28:14. > :28:19.police in 2013 are very different than they were in 1986, would you
:28:19. > :28:27.accept that? No, I don't accept that. You hear that was then and
:28:27. > :28:31.this is now, I mean if the same thing happened now as happened 26
:28:31. > :28:39.years ago I would be very fearful that the police would act in
:28:39. > :28:43.exactly the same way. That the reflex default cover-up mentality
:28:43. > :28:46.is still there in the British police. You have now a Home
:28:46. > :28:50.Secretary in Theresa May who appears to be taking this very
:28:50. > :28:54.seriously, you have also got something else that has changed. We
:28:54. > :28:58.have had the Hillsborough inquiry and the Leveson Inquiry, we have
:28:58. > :29:04.had all the stuff about the phone tapping, do you think that helps
:29:04. > :29:09.you in a way? Yes it has set the scene. I think it has provided the
:29:09. > :29:14.background to what has been happening in this case and in many
:29:14. > :29:20.ways the fact that Daniel's murder came up in the Leveson Inquiry
:29:20. > :29:24.helped us. Once again it brought back into focus this murder and why
:29:24. > :29:31.would were the News of the World doing what they did in that context.
:29:31. > :29:35.Do you think you will live to see someone finally put on trial and
:29:35. > :29:42.convicted for the murder of your brother? I think that is extremely
:29:42. > :29:49.unlikely at this stage. The police have, I just don't believe so, I
:29:49. > :29:56.don't believe so. To put place any hope in it I think would be asking
:29:56. > :30:01.for further disappointment. What keeps you going, 26 years?
:30:01. > :30:05.remember more than 20 years ago, when I reached a point where I
:30:05. > :30:12.found it completely unacceptable what was going on, I made a promise
:30:12. > :30:19.to my brother, I said I'm not going to stop until I see this exposed. I
:30:19. > :30:24.wanted convictions. As we have seen we haven't had any. But the
:30:24. > :30:28.corruption I promised myself and my brother that I would expose this
:30:29. > :30:34.corruption. I think if I hadn't done it, knowing, having seen what
:30:34. > :30:39.I saw then, I would probably have, I don't know, you know it would
:30:39. > :30:45.have destroyed me, I think internally to not take any
:30:45. > :30:51.responsibility for it. Just the fact that the Home Secretary is
:30:51. > :30:55.going to announce another inquiry, is there a sense within the family
:30:55. > :31:00.that you have been vindicated after all these years? Yes, there is
:31:00. > :31:04.finally a sense that somebody outside the police is taking us
:31:04. > :31:12.seriously. That, yes, there was corruption. We have been trying to
:31:12. > :31:20.tell you that for a quarter of a century, you know. Yeah, to that
:31:20. > :31:25.extent we feel vindicated, but there is a way to go. The anatomy
:31:25. > :31:30.of this corruption needs to be looked at very carefully. Thank you
:31:30. > :31:37.very much. He was said to be the greatest drummer of his generation,
:31:37. > :31:46.one of the first-ever super-combos Cream. Now Ginger Baker has told
:31:46. > :31:53.the story of his own life in a new documentary.
:31:53. > :32:00.Cream, the first super-group, Eric Clapton on guitar, Jack Bruce on
:32:00. > :32:06.bass and in the drum chair, Ginger Baker. When I met Eric I went, got
:32:06. > :32:14.it, it was a rewarding, especially the first year or so, then it
:32:14. > :32:24.started to go all awry by these bloody things with Marshall written
:32:24. > :32:26.
:32:26. > :32:32.on them.Am Pli fires, too loud was it? --AmIfyers? Wow, my hearing is
:32:32. > :32:42.damaged from the last days of Cream. Shall we sewer Rick? Jack was the
:32:42. > :32:45.
:32:46. > :32:51.main culprit with the volume. A useful drummer and equestian and
:32:51. > :32:58.polo player, Ginger Baker isn't in the saddle so much these days at 73.
:32:58. > :33:05.Maybe all that hellraising back in his pomp has taken its toll. In a
:33:05. > :33:09.new documentary Baker's illustrious former sideman grapples with the
:33:09. > :33:14.drummer's enigma. I won't be his doctor or psychologist or make a
:33:14. > :33:22.diagnosis, I can't make a diagnosis of Ginger, when I was driving in
:33:22. > :33:26.today I thought do I know Ginger well? Do I? I have been with him in
:33:26. > :33:30.fairly rarified situations which have allowed me to see certain
:33:30. > :33:34.sides of him, I probably haven't seen him like you have seen him
:33:34. > :33:40.because I didn't take the effort, the time, the risk to step into his
:33:40. > :33:46.life. I was only a risk to myself, says our man. Take that time with
:33:46. > :33:55.the glass door in the New York hotel. Anything that happened was
:33:55. > :34:01.always me. I have never thrown a TV out of a hotel window in my life. I
:34:01. > :34:08.walked through the GoramHotel glass doors one day, not intentionally.
:34:08. > :34:10.But it was, I went to kick the door open and missed the bar and went
:34:10. > :34:15.through the glass and walked through the glass. Ginger is as
:34:15. > :34:25.good as gold, unless you push him too far, as the documentary-maker
:34:25. > :34:30.
:34:30. > :34:36.found out. Ginger Baker hit me in the BEEP nose. I don't like silly
:34:36. > :34:44.questions, he asked how did it feel, and I go, I don't know. How did it
:34:44. > :34:54.feel! No. They are a four piece, Ginger Baker, Jack Bruce and Eric
:34:54. > :34:54.
:34:54. > :34:59.Clapton and Paul on Bass. Now this is what late-night BBC Two ought to
:34:59. > :35:04.look like. After years of living abroad, GB is back in the UK. And
:35:04. > :35:14.on the road. Not with this band, but with the unimprovably named
:35:14. > :35:15.
:35:15. > :35:20.Ginger Baker's Jazz Confusion. thought I had retired. I managed to
:35:20. > :35:24.outlive my pension, as it were, so I had to go back to work. Watching
:35:24. > :35:30.that film, one version of your life, somebody else's version of your
:35:30. > :35:38.life, did it make you feel yeah there were things you regreted
:35:38. > :35:47.along the way? I have got more regrets than most people, I think.
:35:47. > :35:55.Enormous regrets of things that I wish had never happened. No I do.
:35:55. > :36:00.Lots and lots of regrets. I lost everything, I have lost everything
:36:00. > :36:07.six or seven times in my life. makes you an incredible survivor
:36:07. > :36:12.doesn't it, you keep coming back? Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people
:36:12. > :36:16.would have committed suicide several times if they had happen to
:36:16. > :36:22.them what I have had. When you lose everything, especially when you
:36:22. > :36:29.have worked for years at it, I trusted the wrong people. You
:36:29. > :36:38.really should trust the people that are not always pleasant to you. I'm
:36:38. > :36:46.a mug. If I may ask you this question, how would you like to be
:36:46. > :36:51.remembered Ginger Baker, when that distant day comes? Drummer.Before
:36:51. > :36:54.the end of the programme we will have tomorrow's front pages. First,
:36:54. > :36:58.if the traditional fault lines in Britain have always been defined
:36:58. > :37:03.one way or another by class, in the United States they are also often
:37:03. > :37:07.defined by race. You might think in the 21st century with an African-
:37:07. > :37:12.American President that racial barriers are destroyed or in the
:37:12. > :37:16.process of eroding. Every so often something catches the attention
:37:16. > :37:21.where race becomes a persistent sub-plot in American life. It is
:37:21. > :37:27.mixed with stories of rich and poor. Earlier this week the extraordinary
:37:27. > :37:32.rescue of young women, apparently held captive for years in Ohio led
:37:32. > :37:35.the man who helped free them, Charles Ramsey give this account of
:37:35. > :37:44.what happened. I knew something was wrong when a little pretty white
:37:44. > :37:49.girl ran into a black man's arms, something is wrong here.
:37:49. > :37:52.Dr Cornel West is here joining me now. That was just a little thing,
:37:52. > :37:57.but it really caught my eye, what did you make of that kind of
:37:57. > :38:00.comment? I think he's speaking from his soul. I think in the United
:38:00. > :38:03.States we have made tremendous progress in black elites having
:38:03. > :38:07.access to opportunities, but in terms of the black working-class
:38:07. > :38:12.and poor, including white, red and yellow poor and working-classes,
:38:12. > :38:16.they have been devastated by the policies of the last 30 years or so.
:38:16. > :38:23.The policies, all the policies? goes back to Reaganism, through
:38:23. > :38:27.Clinton. You financialise at the top, with the oligarchic economy,
:38:27. > :38:30.greed with profits by any means, and privatisationing public
:38:31. > :38:34.education and prisons and then you have militarising. The national
:38:34. > :38:41.security state expands, drones dropping bombs on innocent people,
:38:41. > :38:45.war crimes, you have got attacks on whistleblowers, Brother Julian
:38:45. > :38:50.Assange, I was bless today talk to him this week. Bradley Manning,
:38:50. > :38:57.dealing with trying to tell the truth about secrets and dirty wars.
:38:57. > :38:59.Those things are clearly mattering deeply to you. But things like you
:38:59. > :39:02.have got an African-American President, by I suspect you never
:39:02. > :39:07.thought you would see in your lifetime? I never thought I would.
:39:07. > :39:11.A lot of white people who voted for him. In 2008 a lot more African-
:39:11. > :39:14.American voters came out and voted as a percentage than ever before
:39:14. > :39:18.some things have changed a lot more the better? There is no doubt there
:39:18. > :39:24.has been progress, my brother, and I was blessed last night to be at
:39:24. > :39:32.the University of Sheffield we had a magnificent memorial for Malcolm
:39:32. > :39:37.X, I was invited by Simon goldhill, I had dialogue with Ben Okrey, and
:39:37. > :39:42.the result is what, unbelievable progress on one level, but Malcolm
:39:42. > :39:47.X used to say stab folk in the back nine inches and pull it out six
:39:47. > :39:50.inches and celebrate your progress. We have poverty. I have read the
:39:50. > :39:53.Institute of Fiscal Studies where you have policies pushing a million
:39:53. > :39:58.children here in Britain into poverty too. Why are you
:39:58. > :40:04.disappointed with Obama, you supported him in 2008. You said of
:40:04. > :40:12.him more recently April 2013 saying he was a black mascot of Wall
:40:12. > :40:16.Street oligarchs and a puppet of plutocrats. It is trying to be
:40:16. > :40:22.truthful and biting because I was so disappointed. I did 65 events
:40:22. > :40:27.for him in my support. My question is what is your relationship to the
:40:27. > :40:30.legacy of matter then Luther king others and dor day Day. We talked
:40:30. > :40:40.for four hours, he gave me the idea that he was coming out of the
:40:40. > :40:44.tradition in a significant way. Martin Luthur king, there was
:40:44. > :40:49.Vietnam. There was not a word about the highest level of poverty since
:40:49. > :40:54.196 0tpwh this regard. Are you saying Obama is responsible for war
:40:54. > :41:00.crimes? I they commit war crimes when they meet on Tuesday and have
:41:00. > :41:05.a list. If they did it once or twice with collateral damage, and
:41:05. > :41:09.we have 400 innocent civilians dead and 219 children dead, I'm school
:41:09. > :41:13.about this. I said the same thing about George W Bush and Barack
:41:13. > :41:17.Obama, any state that uses violence to kill innocent people, yes.
:41:17. > :41:22.touched on some of the things that you accept have improved in your
:41:22. > :41:25.country. What about racism itself, has that changed? I think on an
:41:25. > :41:32.individual interpersonal level it is much better. That is a beautiful
:41:32. > :41:34.thing. You all in Britain have the flowering of these wonderful
:41:34. > :41:37.beautiful interpersonal relationships and so forth, but
:41:38. > :41:42.institutional racism is at work in the United States and as here in
:41:42. > :41:45.Britain. We are always talking about race, class, gender and
:41:45. > :41:49.sexual orientation as the way of keeping track of the humanity in
:41:49. > :41:53.people. Would you also accept that some people use race as an excuse,
:41:53. > :41:57.Lauren Hill the other day, the singer who is three months for tax
:41:57. > :42:03.evasion says she's a child of former slaves who had a system
:42:03. > :42:08.imposed on them, and an economicies imposed on her, that is silly, she
:42:08. > :42:13.fiddled her taxes. She's stretching too far, no doubt about that.
:42:13. > :42:16.are we now, how do you see, you are disappointed in the first African-
:42:16. > :42:19.American President, many people think he's a lot better than some
:42:19. > :42:22.of the alternatives? He's better than the right-wing, absolutely, no
:42:22. > :42:27.doubt about that. Where do you think we are now, where do you
:42:27. > :42:32.think we are going now in the United States? In my country which,
:42:32. > :42:35.is both a very precious experiment in democracy an adventure in an
:42:35. > :42:40.empire we are in a very bleak place. We have a choice between a far
:42:40. > :42:44.right party and a centrist neo- liberal party, we don't get to kind
:42:44. > :42:54.of focus, I mentioned poverty before, you have 22% of American
:42:54. > :42:54.
:42:54. > :43:04.children living in poverty, 40% are red, 40% of brown and 40 % of white
:43:04. > :43:06.children. 1% owning all the wealth, the top 12% have the top wealth.
:43:06. > :43:12.I'm interested a lot of your conversation has been about class
:43:12. > :43:15.rather than race. But that does not mean in any sense that many racial
:43:15. > :43:22.questions which you have talked about in your lifetime are solved?
:43:22. > :43:26.That is right. For me, brother, it is about how do we try to be decent,
:43:26. > :43:31.honest and have some integrity in a moment in which so many people are
:43:31. > :43:36.suffering? No matter what colour? No matter where they are, we are
:43:36. > :43:40.living in a moment where people are more and more indifferent to forms
:43:40. > :43:46.of criminalty. We have got used to them so we overlook, we become more
:43:46. > :43:52.and more callous to catastrophe, impending ecological cat it is a
:43:52. > :43:56.trough fee, economic catastrophe, wrestling with immigration with our
:43:56. > :44:01.precious eastern European citizens, are they being treated with digty.
:44:01. > :44:05.Neither party in either country are speaking with a level of passion
:44:05. > :44:13.that Martin Luther King junior would have liked. Now a quick look
:44:13. > :44:23.at the front pages. The male has the the net closing in on superrich
:44:23. > :44:35.
:44:35. > :44:45.That's all for tonight, I hope you can join Kirsty tomorrow night.
:44:45. > :45:06.
:45:06. > :45:11.can join Kirsty tomorrow night. Good night. Good evening, after a
:45:11. > :45:15.very wet and windy day on Thursday, Friday's prospects do look
:45:15. > :45:19.comparatively quieter, it looks to be a breedsy day, rain around, but
:45:19. > :45:23.it shouldn't be as widespread. We are looking mostly at heavier
:45:23. > :45:26.showers running into the west of the UK throughout the day. Perhaps
:45:26. > :45:31.merging into some more persistent rain through the afternoon. Across
:45:31. > :45:35.the south west of England and South Wales. Further north hopefully some
:45:35. > :45:38.spells of sunshine interspersing the outbreaks of heavier rain from
:45:38. > :45:43.time to time. Similar mixture for Northern Ireland, 13 is our
:45:44. > :45:47.forecast high here. For Scotland highs of 12-13. The showers pretty
:45:47. > :45:54.well scattered, no decent amount of sunshine on the kartd. Showers into
:45:54. > :45:57.the North West of England from time to time. In the south-east we
:45:57. > :46:01.should get quite a bit of sunshine through the course of the day.
:46:01. > :46:08.Highs of 16-17. There is a chance that some of those showers from
:46:08. > :46:18.further west could run eastwards carried through on breeze. Through
:46:18. > :46:20.