:00:14. > :00:18.$:/STARTFEED. The Tory leadership has been blown around by euro-
:00:18. > :00:22.sceptic rebels. Tonight the party offers a new deal. Will they simply
:00:22. > :00:28.come back for more. In Washington the President offers sharp words to
:00:28. > :00:32.Tory MPs. You probably want to see if you can fix what's broken in a
:00:32. > :00:40.very important relationship before you break it off. We will be joined
:00:41. > :00:46.for reaction tonight by Tory rebel, Nadine dor res. Also tonight:
:00:46. > :00:50.The lauter in Syria continues, in Washington Cameron and Obama agree
:00:51. > :00:54.to do nothing at least for now. All this debate may have done about
:00:54. > :01:00.a peace conference is delay by a few weeks the decision the US and
:01:00. > :01:06.the UK need to make about whether to arm the opposition. We will put
:01:06. > :01:11.that to George W Bush's pent gone ally.
:01:11. > :01:20.How bad can it get, the deadly global virus that can be passed
:01:20. > :01:24.through personal contact. Good evening, who exactly is
:01:25. > :01:28.throwing in the towel. Earlier today that charge was levelled at
:01:28. > :01:31.rebel euro-sceptic MPs, those calling for an early referendum on
:01:31. > :01:37.Europe. Yet tonight David Cameron's agreed to publish a draft bill that
:01:37. > :01:40.will pave the way for an in-out vote in 2017. The timing is unlike
:01:41. > :01:44.to be coincidence, and comes as the President of the United States came
:01:44. > :01:48.to the Prime Minister's aid on this very subject. Where is the
:01:48. > :01:53.leadership coming from, and will an awful like this be enough to stop
:01:53. > :01:56.them, as one once said, "banging on". Take us through what this
:01:56. > :01:59.draft suggests? It is a quite a loud bang of the drum this evening.
:01:59. > :02:02.They hope it will be one of the final ones before the next election.
:02:02. > :02:07.What the current strategy or strategy as of yesterday or this
:02:07. > :02:11.morning was, was that 2015 if the Prime Minister manages to be in
:02:11. > :02:15.some form of Government he will renegotiate with European partners
:02:15. > :02:18.and then there is will be a referendum in 2017 and people in
:02:18. > :02:23.Britain get a stay. Lots of backbenchers want his hands bound
:02:23. > :02:26.in some ways to dictate to other Governments in the future or any
:02:26. > :02:31.Government he will be part of as part of legislation. He says he
:02:31. > :02:34.can't do that. Now he has said half an hour ago in America is we will
:02:34. > :02:38.give awe bill, we will write it and publish it tomorrow, we cannot
:02:38. > :02:41.charter it through, you as backbenchers have to adopt it
:02:41. > :02:46.through this thing called the Private Members Bill all bot, where
:02:46. > :02:50.they all go in the mix -- ballot, where they all go in the mix and if
:02:50. > :02:53.it comes up top they have to chose it. In the last 40 minutes we have
:02:53. > :02:56.seen one of the key euro-sceptic rebels has said he doesn't really
:02:56. > :03:01.like this new proposition from David Cameron. He's actually called
:03:01. > :03:04.it a ploy on Radio 4 this evening. That is because they think actually
:03:04. > :03:08.if you really do believe this then you would just use Government time.
:03:08. > :03:11.I think that is being a bit unkind on them, there is this Lib Dem
:03:11. > :03:14.problem. The Lib Dems will not accept this. That is what some of
:03:14. > :03:17.the euro-sceptics are saying, we will hear more later. If you
:03:17. > :03:22.believe this you will push it through. There is a second problem,
:03:22. > :03:24.this is more process, this is more about timing and it is not actually
:03:24. > :03:28.about the heart of it which is what are you actually going to
:03:28. > :03:31.renegotiate. What are you actually going to bring back. Until people
:03:31. > :03:36.know what he's talking about bringing back, they are not sure
:03:36. > :03:40.they want to be part of his strategy or want another one.
:03:40. > :03:45.is Britain's route to Europe. Right now there is a pretty rigid
:03:46. > :03:49.schedule to it. If the stories win a general election in 2015 and
:03:49. > :03:54.Prime Minister David Cameron begins to renegotiate powers from Europe.
:03:54. > :04:00.Time is up in 2017 and people are given a referendum. For a number in
:04:00. > :04:05.the Conservative Party that's all just way too slow.
:04:05. > :04:09.But the animal which provided the goat skin for last week's Queen's
:04:09. > :04:14.Speech may have died in vain. Conservative backbenchers have
:04:14. > :04:20.tabled an amendment, possibly to be voted Onil Wednesday. It expresses
:04:20. > :04:24.regret that 2013's honourable address contains no EU referendum
:04:24. > :04:28.bill. Tory backbenchers and privately some front benchers
:04:28. > :04:33.believe David Cameron's 2017 referendum pledge is on the right
:04:33. > :04:37.tracks, it just needs to be legislated for this parliament.
:04:37. > :04:40.While the Prime Minister is in America extoling the virtues of
:04:40. > :04:44.free demonstrate to President Obama, back here his euro-sceptic MPs are
:04:44. > :04:50.also having a pretty good time. Tonight they throw a party to
:04:50. > :04:54.welcome Nadine Dorres back to the fold after she lost the whip T will
:04:55. > :04:59.be a pretty good bash. Euro- sceptics think the events of the
:04:59. > :05:07.last few days suggests things are going their way. This is why, a
:05:07. > :05:11.steady march of Tory grandees coming out. First Norman Lamont,
:05:11. > :05:16.and Michael Portillo, so far so containable. Next up voices from
:05:17. > :05:21.around the cabinet. On Sunday both Education Secretary, Michael Gove
:05:21. > :05:24.and Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond. There are as many as seven
:05:24. > :05:34.other cabinet ministers who share this view. If that was friend, this
:05:34. > :05:40.
:05:40. > :05:44.morning it was the turn of a rival, David Cameron, at the White House
:05:44. > :05:47.to discuss a new EU-US trade deal worth billions, he said, slapped
:05:47. > :05:51.them down. There is a very good reason why there is not going to be
:05:51. > :05:54.a referendum tomorrow, it is because it would give the British
:05:54. > :05:57.public I think an entirely false choice between the status quo,
:05:57. > :06:01.which I don't think is acceptable, I want to see the European Union
:06:01. > :06:04.changed, I want to see Britain's relationship with the European
:06:04. > :06:08.Union changed and improved. It would be a false choice between the
:06:08. > :06:11.status quo and leaving. I don't think that is the choice that the
:06:11. > :06:16.British public want or the British public deserve. The American
:06:16. > :06:26.President had some advice as well. I think the UK's participation in
:06:26. > :06:26.
:06:27. > :06:29.the EU is an expression of its influence. Of its role in the world
:06:29. > :06:34.and obviously a very important economic partnership. Ultimately
:06:34. > :06:42.the people of the UK have to make decisions for themselves. I will
:06:42. > :06:47.say this, that David's basic point that you probably want to see if
:06:47. > :06:52.you can fix what's broken in a very important relationship before you
:06:52. > :06:58.break it off. It makes some sense to me. The Prime Minister's former
:06:58. > :07:03.Welsh Secretary is among some 70 Tory MPs backing Wednesday's
:07:03. > :07:07.Queen's Speech amendment, Sheryl Gillan thinks legislation is needed
:07:07. > :07:11.now, partly to deal with the trust problem of the I think it is
:07:11. > :07:17.important to restore some faith in our political parties and process.
:07:17. > :07:20.Particularly in the Conservative Party. We have had so many promises
:07:20. > :07:24.on referenda, but not a referendum the people have been able to vote
:07:24. > :07:28.on since the 1970s. I, like many colleagues, think our relationship
:07:28. > :07:32.does need renegotiation with the European Union. But it also then
:07:32. > :07:37.needs putting to the people. It needs to be an in-out referendum.
:07:37. > :07:41.The Prime Minister has promised that. But let's see him confirm
:07:41. > :07:47.that, hopefully, with a piece of legislation. Tonight the Prime
:07:47. > :07:49.Minister has done just that. Modifying his itinerary for
:07:49. > :07:53.European renegotiation quite considerably. Half an hour ago he
:07:53. > :07:57.announced he will tomorrow publish a draft parliamentary bill afterall.
:07:57. > :08:04.It will legislation for an in-out referendum on Britain's membership
:08:04. > :08:07.of the EU to be held by the end of 2017. Number Ten is urging
:08:07. > :08:11.backbench MPs to adopt this legislation as their own. They
:08:11. > :08:15.can't bring it as coalition legislation, the Lib Dems wouldn't
:08:15. > :08:18.allow it. Whatever the speed of the journey, what's the cargo, what
:08:18. > :08:22.does David Cameron want to bring back from Europe? Clearly there are
:08:22. > :08:27.things that he could crack on with immediately and set out in more
:08:27. > :08:30.detail. There are a lot of areas, for example fisheries policy, which
:08:30. > :08:34.is already happening, access to benefits, which he is already
:08:34. > :08:38.addressing. There are other areas as well, social employment law, the
:08:38. > :08:42.budget, a whole range of areas around better regulation, the EU
:08:42. > :08:46.doing less in Britain but better. In all these areas if you start to
:08:46. > :08:49.address them now and give a bit more of a game plan his
:08:49. > :08:53.backbenchers would probably be a bit happier, as would the public.
:08:53. > :08:57.There are some in David Cameron's cabinet who think he should set out
:08:57. > :09:01.what negotiations with Europe he plans, not so much detail he gives
:09:01. > :09:04.the game away to European partners, but enough so that his voters and
:09:05. > :09:12.his colleagues alike know what negotiation success and failure
:09:12. > :09:16.looks like. Lib Dem sources have said this evening that the Tories
:09:16. > :09:20.are banging on about Europe, the Prime Minister will hope his action
:09:20. > :09:23.will actually be the last bang on the Europe drum for a while. But
:09:23. > :09:29.with questions hanging over David Cameron's ambitions for
:09:29. > :09:35.renegotiation, it's not clear it will be. Let's get some reaction to
:09:35. > :09:38.what we have heard tonight, joining me now is the Tory MP Nadine Dorres,
:09:38. > :09:43.who was expelled from her party over a reality show appearence and
:09:43. > :09:47.has now been readmitted. And Stephen Dorrell who remembers the
:09:47. > :09:51.John Major years and supports the Cameron strategy. And we will hear
:09:51. > :09:55.from the spokesman of the European Council, Herman van Rompuy. What do
:09:55. > :09:59.you make of this? It is interesting, it obviously shows the Prime
:09:59. > :10:02.Minister is listeninging to both his backbenchers and actually --
:10:02. > :10:05.listeninging to both his backbenchers and the people of the
:10:05. > :10:11.country, that is what they are there to represent. It is an
:10:11. > :10:19.interesting move. What is worrying is we are still stuck in the time
:10:19. > :10:23.frame of 2016, people want to see things through much quicker than
:10:24. > :10:28.this. If we can bring forward legislation on gay marriage and
:10:28. > :10:32.referendum on an AV referendum for the Liberal Democrats, then surely
:10:32. > :10:35.we can bring something much quicker forward than 2017. Let me just get
:10:35. > :10:40.to the nitty gritty on this, would you throw your name into the ballot,
:10:40. > :10:44.would you put this one forward? and I think in this process, which
:10:44. > :10:47.is being allowed there will be a number of MPs who will want to do.
:10:47. > :10:53.That as you say it would be very difficult with the coalition. What
:10:53. > :10:57.everybody will be unhappy with is the time frame of 2017. The fact is,
:10:57. > :11:01.nobody knows what will happen in the general election. It may not be
:11:01. > :11:05.a Conservative Government, I hope it will be, it isn't whoever comes
:11:05. > :11:09.in will reverse this legislation. Does that mean you will drop the
:11:09. > :11:12.amendment to the Queen's Speech, will that not go ahead? I have no
:11:12. > :11:16.idea because this news has only just broken, we haven't discussed
:11:16. > :11:21.this. I think the amendment still will go ahead. One important aspect
:11:21. > :11:24.of this piece, this move is quite tactical. It means both Labour and
:11:24. > :11:34.Liberal Democrats will have to expose their hand in a vote and
:11:34. > :11:35.
:11:35. > :11:39.their hand will be exposed as being anti- EU amendment. It is a clever
:11:39. > :11:43.move tactically, but in terms of being a Private Members Bill, 2017
:11:43. > :11:47.is too far in the future F we can give gay marriage promises in
:11:47. > :11:53.legislation and an AV referendum, we need to bring through this much
:11:53. > :11:57.quicker. It smacks of appeasment and of the kind that never works?
:11:57. > :12:00.don't think it is, it is confirming the policy the Prime Minister set
:12:00. > :12:05.out in January. That is to say there are two stages to his policy,
:12:05. > :12:08.not one. It is not just about a referendum as he made clear in
:12:08. > :12:13.Washington today, it is about renegotiating the arrangement that
:12:13. > :12:21.is reveil in Europe. As Nigel Lawson said in his article at the
:12:21. > :12:23.beginning of the week, the facts have changed in the euro. There are
:12:23. > :12:28.euro members and those who will never be part of it. Doesn't it
:12:28. > :12:32.seem an odd time to pet it out? is exactly the same policy, as I
:12:32. > :12:37.made the point. Why not just put it in the Queen's Speech or said it
:12:37. > :12:40.out in January? It is the same policy set out inen ja. It is
:12:40. > :12:45.suddenly being published as a draft bill tomorrow? You asked me two
:12:45. > :12:49.questions. It is the same policy set out by the Prime Minister in
:12:49. > :12:54.January as Conservative Party policy. It has not changed one iota
:12:54. > :12:57.since then. It wasn't in the Queen's Speech, because it isn't a
:12:57. > :12:59.coalition policy and this is a coalition Government. The Prime
:12:59. > :13:03.Minister as leader of the Conservative Party has set out a
:13:03. > :13:07.policy, it was endorsed very widely within the Conservative Party in
:13:07. > :13:13.January, this bill is a consequential from that policy and
:13:13. > :13:16.changes the policy not one iota. understand John Baron leading the
:13:16. > :13:22.amendment to the Queen's Speech says that is still going ahead. So
:13:22. > :13:26.this won't work if you still have 70 rebels or whatever number it
:13:26. > :13:31.will be by then signing that? don't have a very strong view about
:13:31. > :13:37.this, what I would regard frankly as parliamentary placard raising on
:13:37. > :13:40.Wednesday. Which one? The amendment. What matters to me is there is a
:13:40. > :13:44.clear policy which the Prime Minister has set out, which the
:13:45. > :13:47.Prime Minister intends to carry through. This bill is a
:13:47. > :13:50.consequential that will be necessary to complete the two aims
:13:51. > :13:55.of that policy. First to renegotiate and then to put the new
:13:55. > :14:01.settlement to a referendum when the negotiations are complete. What
:14:01. > :14:05.would be enough for you now? If this is an olive branch of sorts
:14:05. > :14:09.and you are talking about 2017, is there any compromise between here
:14:09. > :14:14.and there? Legislation that will trigger article 50, that does give
:14:14. > :14:17.a two-year time frame is the kind of legislation that we, as you call
:14:17. > :14:21.us "rebels" are looking for. We are not rebels, we are MPs representing
:14:21. > :14:24.the views of our constituents. A large majority of the British
:14:24. > :14:28.public. That's what would keep us happy. It has to be a tighter time
:14:29. > :14:33.frame. The fact is that if we talk about 2017 the general public are
:14:33. > :14:40.going to say, if you can, just to appease the Liberal Democrats, give
:14:40. > :14:45.a national referendum on AV, why can't you give us one on EU, that
:14:45. > :14:51.is self-serving the public. I am awondering if this gives you
:14:52. > :14:56.confidence that the Prime Minister is committed to Europe? The Prime
:14:56. > :15:00.Minister in his speech in January did make a very strong case for
:15:00. > :15:03.Britain's membership of the European Union, and why it was in
:15:03. > :15:07.Britain's advantage and why leaving it would be a major problem for
:15:07. > :15:11.Britain. And then promised a referendum on possibly leaving. But
:15:11. > :15:13.I think if you are asking about views in Brussels generally,
:15:13. > :15:20.Brussels is just the meeting place of the different countries of
:15:20. > :15:23.Europe. I think there is quite a range of use, some are rather
:15:23. > :15:27.perplexed, saying this is very serious matters, and others saying
:15:27. > :15:30.no it is just about internal divisions of the Conservative Party.
:15:30. > :15:35.Some think it is a serious prospect that Britain might leave the eflt U,
:15:35. > :15:38.some say no, -- the EU, some say surely that would be economic
:15:39. > :15:46.suicide for Britain. Is there room for renegotiation, is there wriggle
:15:46. > :15:49.room within where the EU is now? The European Union is a permanent
:15:49. > :15:54.negotiation among its 27-member states on the issues which they
:15:54. > :15:57.decide and choose to deal with jointly, because of interdependance
:15:57. > :16:01.and other advantages of doing something jointly. At one level it
:16:01. > :16:05.is a permanent negotiation. Sorry to interrupt, is there anything
:16:05. > :16:09.that the Prime Minister could renegotiate or is there enough that
:16:09. > :16:12.he could renegotiate that would make you change your mind on a
:16:12. > :16:15.referendum? It is not about me or the British public. They were given
:16:15. > :16:20.a very simple choice when asked to go into the Common Market, did they
:16:20. > :16:25.want to go in or didn't they, yes or no. People deserve exactly the
:16:25. > :16:28.same choice in terms of exiting. Whether or not we have a choice, an
:16:28. > :16:32.option of renegotiation is actually a completely separate issue. People
:16:32. > :16:38.deserve a choice. Do you want to be in or out of the European Union.
:16:38. > :16:45.They deserve that at the very least. Does it matter if David Cameron
:16:45. > :16:50.sets out his stall or as has been said, if MPs are responding to
:16:50. > :16:53.constituents' wishes it doesn't matter? We go back to the Nigel
:16:53. > :16:57.Lawson point in the article that kicked off this round of debate.
:16:57. > :17:00.This is not just a rerun of the all of arguments we have had over the
:17:00. > :17:03.last 20 years, Europe is different, it is changing, because some
:17:03. > :17:09.European countries are members of the euro, some are not. That
:17:09. > :17:12.requires, there is no escape from this. What does he want to get,
:17:12. > :17:16.what does David Cameron hope to achieve which would push any
:17:16. > :17:20.thought of a referendum out of the British public's mind? He wants to
:17:20. > :17:27.achieve a changed relationship between this country as a long-term
:17:27. > :17:30.out. What is that? In other words a freer more distant relationship
:17:30. > :17:35.that doesn't aspire at any point to be part of the euro. That is not
:17:35. > :17:39.what we want. What we want is trading relationship, outward
:17:39. > :17:42.looking, more market orientated, more flexible in terms of our
:17:42. > :17:48.labour markets, our trading with the rest of the world. That is the
:17:48. > :17:51.kind of relationship that all the euro-outs need to make the euro-out
:17:51. > :17:56.relationship work with the euro state member. Do you understand
:17:57. > :18:00.what is being asked for there, and is it feasible? A lot of people
:18:00. > :18:04.here would like to know exactly what is being asked for. Britains
:18:04. > :18:09.had a choice whether to join the euro or not, nobody is asking it to
:18:09. > :18:14.join the euro. Britain is part of the single market, most people in
:18:14. > :18:18.the country want to remain in the single market. That is the bulk of
:18:18. > :18:23.what the EU does, the Common Market and rules for the Common Market.
:18:23. > :18:26.Everyone is curious to know exactly what changes Britain might put
:18:26. > :18:30.forward. At the moment nothing has actually been tabled by Britain
:18:30. > :18:33.this is what a future Government might do. Nothing has been tabled
:18:33. > :18:38.at the moment. Some don't understand what David Cameron is
:18:38. > :18:41.actually asking for, how can it be negotiated? I think Angela Merkel
:18:41. > :18:45.understands it. Every time David Cameron goes to Europe, goes to the
:18:45. > :18:51.institutions of the EU people say he won't come back with anything.
:18:51. > :18:53.The last time for real he went into a negotiation in Brussels. It was
:18:54. > :19:00.to deliver something in terms of the European budget, which everyone
:19:00. > :19:03.in it this country said of unachievable. He achieved it
:19:03. > :19:07.because he established a relationship with Angela Merkel and
:19:07. > :19:11.other European leaders who share our view about the necessity to
:19:11. > :19:14.change the direction of the European Union, in the interests of
:19:14. > :19:17.British citizens, but in the interests of the whole of the rest
:19:17. > :19:21.of Europe as well. It will look to some as if the Prime Minister is
:19:22. > :19:28.trying to catch up with the events of last week. You have suggested
:19:28. > :19:31.some kind of double-ticket between UKIP and the Conservatives, or ways
:19:31. > :19:35.that candidates could work together. Spell out what you would like to
:19:35. > :19:40.see, what you meant by that? Can I just address the question just
:19:40. > :19:43.asked. I think that one very simple answer to this problem, in terms of
:19:43. > :19:47.people understanding what it is that David Cameron is trying to
:19:47. > :19:51.achieve. What they would like is to be removed from the promise of
:19:51. > :19:54.ever-closer political union. If they can be removed from that it is
:19:54. > :19:58.quite a simple exercise, I think that is what we are looking for and
:19:58. > :20:03.what the British public are looking for. My comments and my article on
:20:03. > :20:08.Sunday were quite clear, actually. Two years ago David Cameron and
:20:08. > :20:12.Nick Clegg changed the law, altered the legislation, so candidates
:20:12. > :20:19.going forward at the 2015 election could put two logos on the ballot
:20:19. > :20:23.paper. Some MPs may feel that rather than have a Conservative-Lib
:20:23. > :20:28.Dem double logo, which was originally tendered, may want to go
:20:28. > :20:31.forward with a Conservative-UK logo. That would mean Conservative MPs
:20:31. > :20:35.being adopted by their local associations and endorsed by UKIP.
:20:35. > :20:40.That could be a way forward. Could you embrace that or does it horrify
:20:40. > :20:48.you? I don't agree with it, and I don't agree with it for a very
:20:48. > :20:51.simple reason. In party system a party must decide which members it
:20:51. > :20:55.enforce dors -- endorses it and which it doesn't, and Nigel Farage
:20:56. > :21:03.hasn't shown much interest in that idea. In a moment the killer virus
:21:03. > :21:07.passed by human contact. Is it bold to go into Syria or bolder to stay
:21:07. > :21:12.out? Tonight as David Cameron talks up the prospect of peace,
:21:12. > :21:16.negotiated with Russia, to stop the bloodshed, we ask what America's
:21:16. > :21:19.tactics would be. Is intervention now impossible? Or is it long
:21:19. > :21:24.overdue? What message is sent to the Syrian Government when the red
:21:24. > :21:28.line is crossed and nothing happens? We have been on the trail
:21:28. > :21:32.of the Prime Minister and President in Washington and we have this
:21:32. > :21:41.report. Neither of these leaders has a simple answer to the Syrian
:21:41. > :21:45.crisis. Advisers talk about each of them facing only bad options. There
:21:45. > :21:50.might be another way. Hot foot from talking to President Putin on
:21:50. > :21:54.Friday, the Prime Minister came bearing the gift of promised
:21:54. > :21:59.Russian co-operation in organising a Syrian peace conference. We all
:21:59. > :22:02.have an interest in a stable, peaceful Syria, that looks after
:22:02. > :22:06.minority rights and brings stability to the neighbourhood. I
:22:06. > :22:12.think that was a breakthrough. I found in my talks with President
:22:12. > :22:17.Putin that he's keen now to move from the generalities of having a
:22:17. > :22:25.peace conference to talking through the specifics of how we can make
:22:25. > :22:30.this work. Ameasure with domestic political difficulties, -- amesh
:22:30. > :22:34.with domestic political difficulties, the leaders would
:22:34. > :22:37.rather talk about domestic issues. Mr Cameron has been left
:22:37. > :22:44.emphasisinging the chances that his recent talks with the Russians
:22:44. > :22:46.might produce a peace conference. Good to see you. Can the Russian
:22:46. > :22:53.offer to bring the Syrian Government to the negotiating table
:22:53. > :22:56.amount to more than a glimmer of hope in a conflict that has already
:22:56. > :23:01.claimed 08,000 lives. It is worth it for Prime Minister Cameron and
:23:01. > :23:05.President Obama to try to see if the Russians can work together with
:23:06. > :23:09.us on this endeavour. But I must say, the Russian track record is
:23:09. > :23:12.not particularly brilliant. They have been sending arms to Syria,
:23:12. > :23:15.they have been unstinting supporters of Syria, they have been
:23:15. > :23:19.blocking all proposals in the UN Security Council for two years on
:23:19. > :23:24.behalf of Syria. I think the pressure is on the Russians to show
:23:24. > :23:27.they can be a productive and responsible counterpart to the
:23:27. > :23:30.United Kingdom and the United States on this issue. The President
:23:30. > :23:34.of the United States and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of
:23:34. > :23:37.Great Britain and Northern Ireland. President Obama's response to the
:23:37. > :23:43.proposed Geneva peace conference showed an awareness of how small
:23:43. > :23:50.its chances of success might be. I'm not promising that it is going
:23:50. > :23:57.to be successful. Frankly, sometimes once the fueries have
:23:57. > :24:07.been unleashed in a situation like Syria, it is very hard to put
:24:07. > :24:08.
:24:08. > :24:15.things back together. There are going to be enormous challenges in
:24:15. > :24:19.getting a credible process going. Even if Russia is involved. At the
:24:19. > :24:23.end of this one got the impression that the two leaders don't pin any
:24:23. > :24:26.great hopes on a negotiated solution, despite Russia's apparent
:24:26. > :24:30.change of position. All this debate may have done about a peace
:24:30. > :24:36.conference is delay by a few weeks the decision that the US and UK
:24:36. > :24:40.have to make about whether to arm the opposition. When it comes to
:24:40. > :24:44.fuelling the conflict by sending in weapons, neither of these partners
:24:44. > :24:49.are prepared to cross that rubicon now, despite the reports of
:24:49. > :24:54.chemical weapons being used. have not made the decision to arm
:24:54. > :24:57.opposition groups in Syria, what we have done is we have amended the EU
:24:57. > :25:02.arms embargo, in order that we can give technical assistance and
:25:02. > :25:05.technical advice, as I said in my statement, that's exactly what we
:25:05. > :25:08.are doing. We are continuing to examine and look at the EU arms
:25:08. > :25:13.embargo and see whether we need to make further changes to it in order
:25:13. > :25:17.to facilitate our work with the opposition. Neither leader wants to
:25:17. > :25:22.escalate their involvement in Syria. Thank you very much everybody.
:25:22. > :25:26.the pressure of events on the ground, from regional spillover to
:25:26. > :25:30.the risks of chemical weapons causing mass casualties could
:25:30. > :25:35.easily force their hand. Let's pick up with our Washington
:25:35. > :25:38.correspondent. You talked about the leaders not having great hopes from
:25:38. > :25:43.this conference and yet it seems there is a time pressure of sorts.
:25:43. > :25:49.What ultimately do you think they will do? It is such a difficult
:25:49. > :25:53.issue. One should say one of the reasons they may not be that
:25:53. > :25:56.hopeful is that their allies, the umbrella group of Syrian opposition
:25:56. > :25:59.forces have really rejected this type of approach in the past and
:25:59. > :26:03.have hinted today that they are not going to go for it now. It is not
:26:03. > :26:09.as if the western side of this can deliver their side of it, let alone
:26:09. > :26:18.the Russian side, which they always choose to foblg cuss on. This
:26:18. > :26:21.question of how -- focus on. This question of how the countries
:26:21. > :26:25.should act has been going on throughout the conflict. You can
:26:25. > :26:30.see a slow and steady movement throughout the US. A year ago it
:26:30. > :26:32.was a couple of Republican senators forcefully advocating the US should
:26:32. > :26:37.get involved. Now you have a different situation, late last year
:26:37. > :26:40.the head of the CIA, the Defence Secretary, both suggested arming
:26:40. > :26:50.the opposition, the White House overruled them. Last week the
:26:50. > :26:54.chairman of the for -- Foreign Relations Group said he was going
:26:54. > :26:56.to put forward a bill to arm the rebels. It is the White House and
:26:56. > :27:02.the President who has stood against it. Everything would change if
:27:02. > :27:04.there was shocking news relating to chemical weapons and large-scale
:27:04. > :27:07.casualties. Even if that doesn't happen that is what the President
:27:07. > :27:11.is being pulled towards by political forces and professional
:27:11. > :27:15.advice here. The UK it is a slightly different equation, they
:27:15. > :27:18.will carry on aid to the opposition groups but they may stop short of
:27:18. > :27:24.weapons. It does seem that President Obama is being drawn
:27:24. > :27:29.towards that kind of step. Particularly if these attempted
:27:29. > :27:33.peace moves don't produce a result in the next few weeks. Here to
:27:33. > :27:38.discuss this from Washington is the US deputy secretary for defence
:27:38. > :27:43.under President George W Bush. In a moment we will be joined by Florida
:27:43. > :27:49.from a member of the Syrian Support Group, who regularly spends time
:27:49. > :27:55.with the Free Syrian Army members in Aleppo. We also have our guest
:27:55. > :28:05.in the studio. Do you think this peace negotiation stands a chance
:28:05. > :28:06.
:28:06. > :28:10.in a conference? It would be wonderful to get a peaceful end to
:28:10. > :28:13.the slaughter. We have had meetings before, and it don't stop anything.
:28:13. > :28:16.I don't know what they are talking about when they talk about a
:28:16. > :28:19.Russian change in position. The Russians are firm their position
:28:19. > :28:25.does not include that Assad must leave. They haven't said anything
:28:25. > :28:28.about a stable democratic Syria, which is what Prime Minister
:28:28. > :28:31.Cameron's side talk about. They talk about protecting Syria's
:28:32. > :28:36.integrity and sovereignty. That means protecting the present
:28:36. > :28:39.Government. In the meantime they are escalating, using more violent
:28:39. > :28:43.weapons, including chemical weapons and mobilising violent militias,
:28:43. > :28:46.they are bringing in Iranians and Hezbollah. They are fighting while
:28:46. > :28:50.pretending to negotiate. And we are pretending to negotiate while doing
:28:50. > :29:00.nothing. I think it is a desperate situation. The longer we wait the
:29:00. > :29:07.fewer options we have. How far would your intervention go then?
:29:07. > :29:10.Look a year ago, two years ago we could have done a lot, simply by
:29:10. > :29:14.supporting the opposition, there are moderate elements within the
:29:14. > :29:18.opposition I believe, as time as gone on the extremists have come to
:29:18. > :29:23.play a more and more significant role. The people who were moderate
:29:23. > :29:26.are now deeply resentful of us. I'm not so sure what options we have,
:29:26. > :29:29.but I do know there is no hope for a negotiation unless there is some
:29:29. > :29:36.leverage on the side of the opposition and we have given them
:29:36. > :29:41.no leverage at all. Let me throw a few thoughts at you, you tell me
:29:41. > :29:46.yes or no. Would you arm rebels? That's obviously one of the ways in
:29:46. > :29:49.which you can give them some leverage. We haven't been in there
:29:49. > :29:56.enough to know which rebels we can work with and which can't. There
:29:56. > :30:00.are some you would not want to arm at all. I would, look there is
:30:00. > :30:04.nothing to be confident about except that we should have acted a
:30:04. > :30:08.year or two years ago. Right now instead of dithering and talking
:30:08. > :30:13.about a fruitless meeting with the Russians we should be getting in
:30:13. > :30:17.there and figuring out our options. We can't do that in Washington.
:30:17. > :30:23.understand you are saying it is too late, but we are where we are, what
:30:23. > :30:30.would you do tomorrow if you were in charge? I would be sending
:30:30. > :30:34.people in with a mandate, where we find opposition groups that are
:30:34. > :30:38.prepared for a democratic and inclusive Syria, that are not
:30:38. > :30:42.extremists, that we would in fact give them the kind of basic
:30:42. > :30:47.defensive weaponry which we have an abundance. We would train them
:30:47. > :30:51.openly, not covertly we would help them organise. We can do that I
:30:51. > :30:54.presume on the territory of neighbouring countries. We can
:30:55. > :31:01.create protected zones operating out of Turkey. But the important
:31:01. > :31:06.thing is to have a strategy. Could that work, you heard about the idea
:31:06. > :31:10.of being involved, intervention? haven't heard anything, actually.
:31:10. > :31:12.There is obviously a lack of strategy, how can you succeed in
:31:13. > :31:17.anything if you don't have a strategy. He fails to see peace, he
:31:17. > :31:23.says it is going to fail and it is going to fail if they don't see it,
:31:23. > :31:27.the others or the US. I don't believe that somebody with such
:31:27. > :31:31.humanitarian deSAS ters on his CV to give me a strategy. The army
:31:31. > :31:35.would need to progress but in the wrong direction. If you are heading
:31:35. > :31:38.on the wrong direction the last thing you need is a progress. You
:31:38. > :31:45.need a peaceful strategy for solution. We are past that aren't
:31:45. > :31:48.we? No we are not. There is the lovely idea of the conference with
:31:48. > :31:53.the Russians but it is not going to happen.
:31:53. > :31:57.It is going in the right direction towards peace. You know the Free
:31:57. > :32:04.Syrian Army high command, would you be confident that if rebels were
:32:04. > :32:08.armed it would get into the right hand? Definitely, I would like
:32:08. > :32:14.first to highlight that the relationship between the commanders
:32:14. > :32:19.of the Free Syrian Army and the US add minutes and the European Union,
:32:19. > :32:28.this relationship has been well established, communication has been
:32:28. > :32:34.open and understanding of mutual a greeplt -- agreement being reached.
:32:34. > :32:37.Over and over there has been relayed the point of view regarding
:32:37. > :32:46.Syria about...That Is the top of the high command, what about the
:32:46. > :32:50.defections lower down that you can't stop? I'm sorry I didn't hear
:32:50. > :32:53.the question. There have been defections from within the Free
:32:53. > :33:00.Syrian Army, people turning to Islamist groups instead, Al-Qaeda-
:33:00. > :33:04.linked groups instead? This is not a defection in the general word of
:33:04. > :33:08.defection. The fighters on the ground are lack weapons, they are
:33:08. > :33:13.lacking food, they are lacking supplies. They are looking for
:33:13. > :33:19.somebody to support them. We in the western Hemisphere we have an
:33:19. > :33:25.option to be the side that can provide all of these means by
:33:25. > :33:31.providing arms and support to the Free Syrian Army commanders. Then
:33:31. > :33:35.gathering all of these fighters, or by creating a vacuum, which is what
:33:35. > :33:40.we have been doing for the past two years. We have allowed extremists
:33:40. > :33:46.and radical groups to attract these fighters. It is very clear, and
:33:46. > :33:50.that has been relaid very clear, that we have no interest in radical
:33:51. > :33:55.groups being in Syria. We have no interest in chemical weapons being
:33:55. > :33:59.in the future of Syria. We are working hard to control our
:33:59. > :34:03.fighters so they can abide by the international law. Would you feel
:34:03. > :34:07.confident, from what you have heard, then, that there are groups that
:34:07. > :34:15.have worked properly with US force that is you would feel confident
:34:15. > :34:21.about arming in this situation? Confident might be a word you can't
:34:21. > :34:27.use in this situation at this point. Would you do it? I feel reasonably
:34:27. > :34:31.confident that if continue to sit on our hands and do nothing the
:34:31. > :34:35.choice will be either between essentially an Assad controlling
:34:35. > :34:39.Syria, which we understand said was unacceptable, or extremist groups
:34:39. > :34:46.taking over. We need to find a third force, hopefully there is one,
:34:46. > :34:54.or we are definitely the loser. 80,000 casualties and two years of
:34:54. > :34:58.inaction? Exactly and 200 people dying a day. $100 million losses a
:34:58. > :35:02.day. It has to stop, you end war with a political decommission, not
:35:02. > :35:08.with an army who doesn't know who is a prter in. When the choices are
:35:08. > :35:11.getting limited by the day. Now the arming is a choice to combat Al-
:35:11. > :35:14.Qaeda, not the ray genome. It is getting extremely complex. You
:35:14. > :35:18.don't know who is fighting against who. The more people holding a
:35:18. > :35:22.weapon the more likely they will go to Al-Qaeda the next day. You can't
:35:22. > :35:30.keep them under control. I would say it is extremely complex and we
:35:30. > :35:35.have to head to peace. Thank you very much indeed. No-one knows
:35:35. > :35:40.where the virus has come from, but the World Health Organisation has
:35:40. > :35:45.warned it can be passed by close personal contact. The global
:35:46. > :35:50.outbreak has called killed 18 people and infected 34. In France a
:35:50. > :35:53.man is in intensive care after sharing a room with the country's
:35:53. > :35:57.first victim. Most of the cases have been in Saudi Arabia or
:35:57. > :36:04.affecting those travelling in the Middle East. The virus appears to
:36:04. > :36:11.be incubated by bats. It was the virus that caused widespread alarm
:36:11. > :36:16.in the world's most populated country. 8,000 infections and 800
:36:17. > :36:22.deaths. The SARS virus back in 2003. Now a new virus from the same
:36:23. > :36:27.family has scientists on alert again. The focus this time has not
:36:27. > :36:30.been Hong Kong and China, but the Middle East. In Saudi Arabia at the
:36:30. > :36:35.weekend, the World Health Organisation gave the latest update.
:36:35. > :36:43.The different clusters seen in multiple countries increasingingly
:36:43. > :36:47.support the hypothesis that when there is close contact this novel
:36:47. > :36:50.corona virus can transmit from person-to-person, this pattern of
:36:50. > :36:55.person-to-person transmission has remained limited to small clusters.
:36:55. > :36:59.So far there is no evidence that this virus has the capacity to
:36:59. > :37:06.sustain generalised community transmission. Since last year there
:37:06. > :37:11.have been confirmed cases in Jordan, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates,
:37:11. > :37:14.and most prevalently in Saudi Arabia. In February this year a
:37:14. > :37:19.cancer sufferer from Birmingham died after contracting the virus.
:37:19. > :37:24.Husband us husband is thought to have caught the virus from his
:37:24. > :37:28.father who was travelling to Saudi Arabia, his father died in March.
:37:28. > :37:31.worrying feature of the SARS virus, is a patient could infect a large
:37:31. > :37:36.number of people, often healthcare workers in hospitals. We saw
:37:36. > :37:40.examples where maybe 70 people were exposed during a single clinical
:37:40. > :37:45.episode. A large number of those people became infected and a large
:37:45. > :37:49.number died. That hasn't happened with this particular corona virus.
:37:49. > :37:53.It seems much more limited in its ability to spread from person-to-
:37:53. > :38:00.person. We have had to look quite hard to find the clusters which are
:38:00. > :38:05.some what hospital-based. The virus is a new form of corona virus. A
:38:05. > :38:09.family which have spikey surfaces, hence corona, or crown. Scientists
:38:09. > :38:17.have a lot of unanswered questions about the latest form, not least
:38:17. > :38:21.where it came from. Most outside, would point to the bat.
:38:21. > :38:28.For years we overlooked these bats. There are still I don't knows of
:38:28. > :38:31.them around. They are in great numbers, they freak close together.
:38:31. > :38:35.We are realise -- frequent close together. We realise they are the
:38:35. > :38:39.source of a lot of viruses. The finger is pointing at the bat. But
:38:39. > :38:44.how do we come in contact with a bat. We might if bats are up in the
:38:44. > :38:49.Belfry or the roof of the house. That is one way. But the bats
:38:49. > :38:56.themselves could come in contact with a rat, who comes in contact
:38:56. > :38:59.with a camel in the area and we go to the camel farms. At the moment
:38:59. > :39:04.to get infects we have to have a connection with the Middle East and
:39:04. > :39:08.a source. Last month a case crept up in France. A 65-year-old man,
:39:08. > :39:12.who had recently visited Dubai. Then last week a 50-year-old man in
:39:12. > :39:16.the same hospital room caught the virus from that first case. The new
:39:16. > :39:20.French cases are the first to suggest the virus has been passed
:39:20. > :39:24.between people with less close contact than a family setting. It
:39:24. > :39:28.raises the possibility it can be spread in the air. People have
:39:28. > :39:33.always moved around. But now that we can reach pretty much anywhere
:39:33. > :39:37.on earth within 24 hours, so can a virus. The fact that so far this
:39:37. > :39:41.virus seems to have one home base is reassuring. But what scientists
:39:41. > :39:46.are watching for is any sign that it can spread beyond small clusters
:39:46. > :39:52.in a way that is sustained. Most corona viruses prefer to just
:39:52. > :39:57.multiply in one host. So we have our own corona viruses, cows have
:39:57. > :40:06.their own corona viruses as do bats. Normally they don't particularly
:40:06. > :40:11.like mult supplying in cells from a host that is not -- multiplying in
:40:11. > :40:15.cells from a host that is not their own. This virus can multiply in
:40:15. > :40:18.cells that are in different animals, or it might be able to have
:40:18. > :40:21.different reservoirs and be transmitted today humans from
:40:21. > :40:29.different sources. That is a worrying feature. What is the best
:40:29. > :40:35.way of limiting the spread of this new virus? There is no anti-virl
:40:35. > :40:38.drug, or magical cure for these viruses. You feel awful, there is
:40:38. > :40:43.no vaccine, it is best not to get infect in the first place. How do
:40:43. > :40:47.we avoid that. I will go to Dubai tomorrow, and I will avoid going to
:40:47. > :40:50.farms or on any desert trips and looking in caves where there could
:40:50. > :40:55.be bats. I will increase my hygiene level. That means proper low
:40:55. > :40:58.watching your hand and a bit of social distancing. However awkward
:40:59. > :41:07.that might be to an English person, moving away from someone a cough,
:41:07. > :41:11.that is what you really have to do. We know this virus can kill, we
:41:11. > :41:17.don't know if many others have been exposed to it and shown milder
:41:17. > :41:20.systems. Scientists are waiting for test results to help answer that
:41:20. > :41:27.question, that and many others they have about this virus. We are
:41:27. > :41:34.joined from Maryland by Dr Fauci, a leading scientist and immunologist.
:41:34. > :41:37.He as also an adviser to the White House on medical and public health
:41:38. > :41:42.preparedness against disease and threat. His organisation is
:41:42. > :41:45.investigating the nature of the corona virus. I want to ask you
:41:45. > :41:50.whether that sound realistic, this idea of social distancing when you
:41:50. > :41:55.travel. Is that something people should be reallying on board now?
:41:55. > :42:00.think if you see someone who is coughing very aggressively, you
:42:00. > :42:04.want to avoid them. Trying to modify just your every day social
:42:04. > :42:09.interaction is probably not a practical thing. These people get
:42:09. > :42:14.infected, they get rather sick. There have been 34 infections in 18
:42:14. > :42:19.dates. When a person gets infected they generally start coughing and
:42:19. > :42:23.would spread it that way. If you are talking about social distancing.
:42:23. > :42:29.By avoiding that, washing your hand and doing the usual type of hygiene
:42:29. > :42:34.you would do to avoid any respiratory infections, such as
:42:34. > :42:38.influenza, that would be important. Pure social discipline is difficult
:42:38. > :42:46.to implement. This idea of the origin coming from bats. Does that
:42:46. > :42:49.make sense to you? The way it has travelled through the system?
:42:49. > :42:55.makes perfect accepts. Different species have different viruses
:42:55. > :42:58.associated with them. When you do molecular sequencing of the corona
:42:59. > :43:06.virus affecting people in the Middle East, it is very similar to
:43:06. > :43:10.a bat corona virus. The question is, are humans getting it from direct
:43:10. > :43:15.exposure to bats. Or are bats infecting another mammal and the
:43:15. > :43:18.human are getting infected by being exposed to the secondary or
:43:19. > :43:23.tertiary host. Right now we really don't know what the source is, even
:43:23. > :43:27.though we do know that the virus itself is related very much to a
:43:27. > :43:32.bat corona virus. That is still a mystery. When you are looking for
:43:32. > :43:38.the source how easy is it to work with the health departments of
:43:38. > :43:42.other Governments, particularly within the Middle East? Well the
:43:42. > :43:46.health departments right now there is an alert out, WHO particularly,
:43:46. > :43:51.here in the United States we are following this very, very closely,
:43:51. > :43:54.because of the events that have occurred for example in the UK and
:43:54. > :43:58.in France. Where people have travelled from the Middle East to
:43:58. > :44:01.countries like the UK and France. So when we have people coming from
:44:02. > :44:06.the Middle East here who have respiratory symptoms, which is very
:44:06. > :44:10.common and doesn't have to be the corona virus, we make sure we watch
:44:11. > :44:15.them carefully and have them see a if I igs and get them checked out,
:44:15. > :44:19.if -- physician, and get them checked out if it is an exposure.
:44:19. > :44:22.We hear it is difficult to get information out of Saudi Arabia,
:44:22. > :44:28.which seems to be he is enter of the virus, they are not offering up
:44:28. > :44:33.what is going on? Well I'm not so sure that is the case. The WHO
:44:33. > :44:36.officials as well as the CDC officials, our own CDC in the
:44:36. > :44:41.United States have had pretty good communecations with the Saudi
:44:41. > :44:48.officials. They have reported that in fact they have had clusters of
:44:48. > :44:54.what looks like human-to-human transmission in Saudi Arabian
:44:54. > :44:58.health facilities. They are being open about that. Just before we go
:44:58. > :45:04.and I show you the papers, Manchester City have confirmed they
:45:04. > :45:09.have sacked their manager, Roberto Macini, after the defeat in the FA
:45:09. > :45:19.Cup Final against Watford. Sorry, Wigan, that will be two new
:45:19. > :45:19.
:45:19. > :46:01.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds
:46:01. > :46:10.The commander of the International Space Station Chris Hadfield comes
:46:10. > :46:17.back to earth this evening, after regaling us with YouTube videos
:46:18. > :46:25.while in space. He has decided to delight or traumatise David Bowie
:46:25. > :46:27.fans. # This is Major Tom to ground
:46:27. > :46:36.control # I've left forever more